A summary: The TinySA is a spectrum analyzer. It shows you almost real-time RF signal strength over a specified frequency range. In addition to measuring all sorts of radiation pattern characteristics of an antenna it's handy for measuring signal strength changes, tuning up radio filter stages, and for identifying problems with harmonics from a transmitter. In conjunction with a cheap ($5 or $10) noise bridge (a random RF noise source) it can show you the wave shape (pass-band, stop-band,) of a filter. A noise bridge is a dirt cheap substitute for a tracking oscillator to use with the spectrum analyzer that will usually work just fine for hobbyists. A critical parameter for hobby-grade spectrum analyzers is the highest frequency it will measure. The NanoVNA is a network analyzer. It measures all sorts of characteristics of any sort of electronic network over a frequency range, including resistance, reactance, and phase relationships over that frequency range. It can be used to test and characterize everything from resistors, capacitors, and crystals, to filters, impedance matching networks, and antennas. It can find the location of problems in coax or just measure how long a piece of cable is. A critical parameter for hobby-grade network analyzers is the highest frequency it will analyze. Basically, over the period of a year or 2 a hobbyist will want to acquire 1 of each device, a multimeter, and an oscilloscope to have a good starter equipment set to do ham radio measurements and a variety of electronics projects. Add in a soldering station and a function generator (if one isn't built into your 'scope or other gear) and you're set up to do all sorts of things. Of course, if you just want to talk on the radio all you'll need is a radio, coax, and an antenna, and someone to check your SWR when you first set up. But where's the fun in that? The hobby is radio electronics, not talking. You don't even need a radio to just talk.
A $10 return-loss bridge is easy to use with a TinySA to determine the reflection of an antenna system at various frequencies and calculate the SWR value if the return loss value isn't sufficient for your taste. Return-loss bridges were used for decades with SA's before the advent of the $50 network analyzer. I still use mine when it's more convenient to use than the NanoVNA.
There isn't enough signal from the LO to make a make shift tracking source you need to make meaningful measurement. Nor is the resolution there. Far more accurate to use the NanoVNA for that kind of work.
I have both of these, and use them more than I thought I would. Learned a lot using them, and watching video's too. I do wish "they" would make a small TDR about the size of the tinySA or the ultra, that we could buy for field work with checking transmission lines and antenna systems. It shouldn't take to much since the firmware would not be anywhere near the complicated stuff in the VNA's. A pulse generator, timer and fast voltage detection would be about all thats needed. Not expensive RF stuff like the other units. Ability to hook to a scope to see better would be cool too.. Just saying in case anyone in china is listening.. LOL
The NanoVNA can be used as a TDR. Have you tested that function? It doesn't actually measure the response from an impulse in the time domain. Instead it measures the frequency response and uses mathematical transformation (inverse fft?) to show how the impulse response would have looked. I have used it, it seems to work fine. The resolution is limited by the number of points but good enough for many use cases.
You find the function in the menu Display/Transform. Select Transform on. There are some other options. I don't know the details about. I usually use the bandpass option. You can also set the velocity factor to get the results in meters instead of in nanoseconds. This will transform all your traces to the time domain. Reflections show really well in e.g. an impedance trace or a linear trace. The time/length scale is set by changing the start and stop frequency of the stimulus. Usually I set the start frequency to e.g. 50 kHz and then set the stop frequency to get the range I want. E.g. 200 MHz gives 195 ns or 20 m scale. 2 GHz gives a range of 2 m and a resolution of 2 cm. Good enough for most cables but not for high speed PCB traces were you want to pinpoint reflections to the millimeter.
Wow, great video explaining the difference between the two. I have a small NanoVNA and it is extremely useful but the screen is too small for my 63 year eyes. However, I use a magnifying glass so I get by. This is a great time to be involved with amateur radio because equipment is so inexpensive compared to even six year ago. I build a lot of my own radio gear and I was able to put together a fully stocked electronics work station on the cheap. I've learned so much from this channel so thank you! I now build my own Balins and Ununs, loading coils, etc. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us...73...Hugh...KN6KNB
Hey Hugh, I have the same problem reading the screen so I mostly use my computer with NanoVNA-Saver. Glad to hear the channel is helpful to you, thanks for watching 👍
@@TheSmokinApe They sure do look handy and simple to use. Lot pricer than the VNA though. They are setup for European users (N-type connector and all the band plans). Just wish they would come out with an American version.
Thanks Ape for another very informative video ! It is somewhat confusing to a newcomer since they look very similar on the surface. For the cheap money, both these gadgets are very fine additions to test equipment for ham radio. I still want to see a tinySA Ultra with a 7 inch screen.
The tech minded ham will have both. although, I have to say, I like the LiteVNA64 better than the H4. It has better performance at the higher end of the frequency range. Also, be aware of clones, buy from authorized vendors only.
The 'miniVNA pro' from Radio Solution, which has been around for a long time, has the advantage that it has a Bluetooth interface and can therefore be attached directly to the base of the antenna. This means that the influence of physical proximity can be prevented.
Hi Ape, Does the TinySA Ultra have the same connection to a computer that the NanoVNA does (ie VNAsaver) so that you can read the display on a desktop monitor? This would be a deal breaker should I want to buy a unit like this. At my age, I really hate small screens.
That's really helpful. I have both the NanoVNA and the TinySA Ultra (I got the TinySA Ultra on your recommendation, and have never regretted that choice), and they are great little tools. What is your opinion of the TinyPFA? Do you think it's a worthwhile addition to complement the NanoVNA and TinySA?
Very good. yes the H4 and Ultra better. I just got back from park. 10/11/12 meters really hot in NY. I got over 200 contacts . FT8 10 and 12 meter/ SSB and some 11 meter SSB . 25 FT with 4:1 . just a T 200-2 RED core 8/18 wrap. The Nano H4 SWR sweep is awesome 10 threw 12 meters . 12 meters like 1.1 SWR . 11 meters 1.5SWR . 28.074 was 2:1 . I fold back about 4 in and 1.1 SWR on 28.074 . No tuner and killing it with a QT60 at 30 watts or less, FT8 was 10 watt. Just on 20 AH battery. Proto rico / Jamaica / west indies /Oregon / California/ Nevada/ Washington were most of skip. Some noise like S3 to S4 but most signals were S9 or better. I just got new UNUN 4:1 1 KW today . some testing later. it has a 15/30 wrap on T240-43 and 1-54 MHZ 4:1 --1 KW PEP . looks super nice. I take pics later. 73
Sdr Play Radios have a free software to turn your SDR radio into a spectrum analyser. Seems to work well and the Guy who wrote the software is always adding features and doing updates.
You can easily mount both in a box with adhesive Velcro. I have done something similar in a briefcase. A handheld oscilloscope/multimeter with sig gen. A few batteries, solderless breadboards and tinyVNA and you have a complete lab in a box.
I talked this over with my cousin, uncle, brother, and he agrees. A high end multimeter from wal-mart, set to measure AC current, but run the leads through a 9 volt battery (opposite polarity of course), will do everything both them little meters will.
Ill stick with my rig expert. Can't read the tiny text on either one of them in the bright sun. Analyzer's are no good if you cant take them out doors and read them without out a magnifying glass.
@@TheSmokinApe No, for anyone wanting to use it outdoors or for experienced hams who are tired of reading microtext. I mean one day, those folks who make those things, will realize that those GUI suck.
I've got both the RE Pro and the NanoVNA. Both are useful and I also struggle with the text on the screen of the NanoVNA. I use the RE in the field but use the NanoVNA when working in my shack. I can easily connect the NanoVNA to a PC and view the screen on a monitor and the sheer flexibility overt he RE makes it worth having both. I have a need to be able to do tests at 13cm so am looking at larger screen options of the NanoVNA with extended frequency range. That will most likely live in my car and ultimately replace the RE. I personally find the NanoVNA more logical to use than the RE for more than simple Multe-type testing.
I have both, been using both, but it is easy to get lost in the details, so I keep coming back to your videos to walk back through each process!
Having both is an insane value for money. It's a no-brainer.
Glad the video are helpful KO4VNX 👍
Agreed Dren 👍
@@DrenImeraj Absolutly 200 bucks well spend
Buys a Tiny SA.
Cries when the Ultra version is released a month later!
Another great video Ape!
Haha, thanks for watching Adam 👍
A summary:
The TinySA is a spectrum analyzer. It shows you almost real-time RF signal strength over a specified frequency range. In addition to measuring all sorts of radiation pattern characteristics of an antenna it's handy for measuring signal strength changes, tuning up radio filter stages, and for identifying problems with harmonics from a transmitter. In conjunction with a cheap ($5 or $10) noise bridge (a random RF noise source) it can show you the wave shape (pass-band, stop-band,) of a filter. A noise bridge is a dirt cheap substitute for a tracking oscillator to use with the spectrum analyzer that will usually work just fine for hobbyists. A critical parameter for hobby-grade spectrum analyzers is the highest frequency it will measure.
The NanoVNA is a network analyzer. It measures all sorts of characteristics of any sort of electronic network over a frequency range, including resistance, reactance, and phase relationships over that frequency range. It can be used to test and characterize everything from resistors, capacitors, and crystals, to filters, impedance matching networks, and antennas. It can find the location of problems in coax or just measure how long a piece of cable is. A critical parameter for hobby-grade network analyzers is the highest frequency it will analyze.
Basically, over the period of a year or 2 a hobbyist will want to acquire 1 of each device, a multimeter, and an oscilloscope to have a good starter equipment set to do ham radio measurements and a variety of electronics projects. Add in a soldering station and a function generator (if one isn't built into your 'scope or other gear) and you're set up to do all sorts of things. Of course, if you just want to talk on the radio all you'll need is a radio, coax, and an antenna, and someone to check your SWR when you first set up. But where's the fun in that? The hobby is radio electronics, not talking. You don't even need a radio to just talk.
Pretty much on point, somewhere around here I have a video showing how to use a broadband noise source in lieu of a tracking generator.
Thanks Ape! Good explanation on the differences and uses of both tools. Thanks for the video! 73
Thanks for watching Jeff 👍
I retired after 42 years in the electronic repair business. I never thought i would be able to carry my whole shop around in a briefcase.
It’s crazy right?
Damn, wish I’d seen this video 2 hours ago; just bought a Nano VNA!
D’oh! Congrats on the pick up 👍
A $10 return-loss bridge is easy to use with a TinySA to determine the reflection of an antenna system at various frequencies and calculate the SWR value if the return loss value isn't sufficient for your taste. Return-loss bridges were used for decades with SA's before the advent of the $50 network analyzer. I still use mine when it's more convenient to use than the NanoVNA.
Thanks for the info John 👍
That's great info, thank you!
There isn't enough signal from the LO to make a make shift tracking source you need to make meaningful measurement. Nor is the resolution there. Far more accurate to use the NanoVNA for that kind of work.
thanks,, another straight to the point video!
Thanks Daniel 👍
Another banger video by the Ape. I got the nanoVNA and its been really useful.
Thanks Radio, glad you liked it 👍
You just confirmed my determination that I need both!
Get after it son!
I have both of these, and use them more than I thought I would. Learned a lot using them, and watching video's too.
I do wish "they" would make a small TDR about the size of the tinySA or the ultra, that we could buy for field work with checking transmission lines and antenna systems. It shouldn't take to much since the firmware would not be anywhere near the complicated stuff in the VNA's. A pulse generator, timer and fast voltage detection would be about all thats needed. Not expensive RF stuff like the other units. Ability to hook to a scope to see better would be cool too.. Just saying in case anyone in china is listening.. LOL
Interesting idea, thanks for watching Arnold 👍
The NanoVNA can be used as a TDR.
Have you tested that function?
It doesn't actually measure the response from an impulse in the time domain. Instead it measures the frequency response and uses mathematical transformation (inverse fft?) to show how the impulse response would have looked.
I have used it, it seems to work fine.
The resolution is limited by the number of points but good enough for many use cases.
You find the function in the menu Display/Transform.
Select Transform on. There are some other options. I don't know the details about.
I usually use the bandpass option.
You can also set the velocity factor to get the results in meters instead of in nanoseconds.
This will transform all your traces to the time domain. Reflections show really well in e.g. an impedance trace or a linear trace.
The time/length scale is set by changing the start and stop frequency of the stimulus. Usually I set the start frequency to e.g. 50 kHz and then set the stop frequency to get the range I want. E.g. 200 MHz gives 195 ns or 20 m scale.
2 GHz gives a range of 2 m and a resolution of 2 cm.
Good enough for most cables but not for high speed PCB traces were you want to pinpoint reflections to the millimeter.
@@larslindgren3846 Thank you! I will give this a try and try to get my brain around it!
Nice explanation, Ape...Thanks!
Thanks BA 👍
Wow, great video explaining the difference between the two. I have a small NanoVNA and it is extremely useful but the screen is too small for my 63 year eyes. However, I use a magnifying glass so I get by. This is a great time to be involved with amateur radio because equipment is so inexpensive compared to even six year ago. I build a lot of my own radio gear and I was able to put together a fully stocked electronics work station on the cheap. I've learned so much from this channel so thank you! I now build my own Balins and Ununs, loading coils, etc. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us...73...Hugh...KN6KNB
Hey Hugh, I have the same problem reading the screen so I mostly use my computer with NanoVNA-Saver. Glad to hear the channel is helpful to you, thanks for watching 👍
Great overview Ape. Would like to see you compare the newer Mini1300 amongst the group here. Looks like a nice unit indeed.
I would like to try one out at some point.
@@TheSmokinApe They sure do look handy and simple to use. Lot pricer than the VNA though. They are setup for European users (N-type connector and all the band plans). Just wish they would come out with an American version.
@@MrThisIsMeToo I actually like BNC 😮
@@TheSmokinApe For UHF/VHF BNC would be fine, for HF I would prefer the 239. less adapters.
Thanks Ape for another very informative video ! It is somewhat confusing to a newcomer since they look very similar on the surface. For the cheap money, both these gadgets are very fine additions to test equipment for ham radio. I still want to see a tinySA Ultra with a 7 inch screen.
A 7” TinySA would be fantastic! Thanks for watching David 👍
Always appreciate your informative, easily understood videos. Navy metrology & calibration lab retired fart😊
Thanks SoCo, glad you like the videos 👍
The tech minded ham will have both. although, I have to say, I like the LiteVNA64 better than the H4. It has better performance at the higher end of the frequency range. Also, be aware of clones, buy from authorized vendors only.
I haven’t tried the 64 yet and you are correct, every ham should have these…
Good video
Thump!
The 'miniVNA pro' from Radio Solution, which has been around for a long time, has the advantage that it has a Bluetooth interface and can therefore be attached directly to the base of the antenna. This means that the influence of physical proximity can be prevented.
Yep, Bluetooth is handy 👍
Hi Ape,
Does the TinySA Ultra have the same connection to a computer that the NanoVNA does (ie VNAsaver) so that you can read the display on a desktop monitor?
This would be a deal breaker should I want to buy a unit like this.
At my age, I really hate small screens.
I believe the software is called TinySA App 👍
That's really helpful. I have both the NanoVNA and the TinySA Ultra (I got the TinySA Ultra on your recommendation, and have never regretted that choice), and they are great little tools. What is your opinion of the TinyPFA? Do you think it's a worthwhile addition to complement the NanoVNA and TinySA?
I haven’t tried the TinyPFA yet
@@TheSmokinApe In that case, I look forward to watching the video when you do.
Very good. yes the H4 and Ultra better. I just got back from park. 10/11/12 meters really hot in NY. I got over 200 contacts . FT8 10 and 12 meter/ SSB and some 11 meter SSB . 25 FT with 4:1 . just a T 200-2 RED core 8/18 wrap. The Nano H4 SWR sweep is awesome 10 threw 12 meters . 12 meters like 1.1 SWR . 11 meters 1.5SWR . 28.074 was 2:1 . I fold back about 4 in and 1.1 SWR on 28.074 . No tuner and killing it with a QT60 at 30 watts or less, FT8 was 10 watt. Just on 20 AH battery. Proto rico / Jamaica / west indies /Oregon / California/ Nevada/ Washington were most of skip. Some noise like S3 to S4 but most signals were S9 or better. I just got new UNUN 4:1 1 KW today . some testing later. it has a 15/30 wrap on T240-43 and 1-54 MHZ 4:1 --1 KW PEP . looks super nice. I take pics later. 73
Yeah, these tools can really help get stuff dialed in…. Thanks for watching Robert 👍
I'm surprised someone hasn't made software to use the TinySA as an SDR.
It would be a pretty poor sdr
I’d like to see some custom firmware tailored more for ham tasks 🤔
Sdr Play Radios have a free software to turn your SDR radio into a spectrum analyser. Seems to work well and the Guy who wrote the software is always adding features and doing updates.
Why don’t they make a “TinySA-NanoVNA”! One box, does it all!!
That would be handy 👍
You can easily mount both in a box with adhesive Velcro. I have done something similar in a briefcase. A handheld oscilloscope/multimeter with sig gen. A few batteries, solderless breadboards and tinyVNA and you have a complete lab in a box.
Both so cheap, get Both, I come from a world where a hp network analyzer costs 200k, now I can get a nanovna for 100 bucks 😅😅
I agree, get both 👍
Isn’t that like, “Which is better, a hammer or a screwdriver?”
Yep
I want both but in VK land concerned about buying dodgy clones
The original manufacturers sell on Ali Express if that helps 👍
Which of these devices would be easier for my cat to control?
Neither, try the MicoCAT
@@TheSmokinApe sounds like a winner.
@@slappomatthew I’ve been meaning to check one out, maybe it’s time
Two completely different tools. Anyone who doesn't realise that shouldn't buy either.
Glad we got that sorted out 👍
I talked this over with my cousin, uncle, brother, and he agrees. A high end multimeter from wal-mart, set to measure AC current, but run the leads through a 9 volt battery (opposite polarity of course), will do everything both them little meters will.
That is actually my next video!
Any VNA is better than no VNA
Right 👍
Hammer vs screwdriver...
Right
Ill stick with my rig expert. Can't read the tiny text on either one of them in the bright sun. Analyzer's are no good if you cant take them out doors and read them without out a magnifying glass.
@@don_n5skt those REs are really good for beginners 😮
@@TheSmokinApe No, for anyone wanting to use it outdoors or for experienced hams who are tired of reading microtext. I mean one day, those folks who make those things, will realize that those GUI suck.
@@don_n5skt nope
I've got both the RE Pro and the NanoVNA. Both are useful and I also struggle with the text on the screen of the NanoVNA. I use the RE in the field but use the NanoVNA when working in my shack. I can easily connect the NanoVNA to a PC and view the screen on a monitor and the sheer flexibility overt he RE makes it worth having both.
I have a need to be able to do tests at 13cm so am looking at larger screen options of the NanoVNA with extended frequency range. That will most likely live in my car and ultimately replace the RE. I personally find the NanoVNA more logical to use than the RE for more than simple Multe-type testing.
@@rjy8960 Truth be told, I struggle with the text even indoors. Ape is just picking on me because I am old 😆