The greater pitcher ever was Sandy Koufax who put together 6 unreal seasons plus miraculous post seasons. Ryan couldn't even pitch a 9 inning game without any walks.
@capacitance-rca1981 "The greatest pitcher ever was Nolan Ryan?" Hardly. I can name 20 pitchers who were better than Ryan, who was only marginally better than the teams he played on. He was smarginally better than a .500 pitcher, with a win/loss of 52.6%, playing on teams (Mets, Angels, Astros, Rangers) with a winning % of 50.4%. Check those stats. How does THAT compare with Seaver, Pedro, Maddux, Koufax, and 16 others? Yes, I know he had over 5,000 strikeouts and 7 no-hitters, but he lost 292 games! How does that compare to the greats?
Yeah I’m thinking the same thing. I was studying his throwing motion closely and it’s about as close as you can be to throwing underhanded like girls do in softball. Now the girls in our softball little league don’t have a pitch count like the boys do. And the girls don’t seem to get arm injuries like the boys do. It has me completely reconsidering pitching and throwing mechanics
I experimented pitching with Walter Johnson's motion, as best as I could create it from the movies. It's amazingly easy to throw very hard without putting any stress on your arm, though it "feels weird" until you get the hang of it. Almost all of the work is done by the twisting of the trunk. No stress on the shoulder, no stress on the elbow. You actually do use a lot of your body, you just don't use it in the conventional way. And the ball is really well hidden. It's a bit hard to throw a curveball or slider, but it is possible, and there would be other options like a circle change or a knuckleball.
His delivery and deceptive release was the key. I have a feeling he was extremely flexible too because he wasn’t out there training with weights and stuff like that.
Walter Johnson said that his arm didn't really get loose until about 100 pitches. This means that he was throwing even harder late in the game . Today pitching over 200 innings a season is taboo. He was pitching 300+ like a walk in the park .
Yeah he was really the first guy to throw hard for a full game. He probably averaged like 96.5 on any given fastball. And topped at 99 or 100. Cobb actually said his windup looked unimpressive at first but the first time he faced johnson, his fastball made him flinch
"There is basically 0% chance that any pitching coach today would allow his mechanics to stay this way." This is why a lot of pitching coaches today are idiots, and a lot of arms are ruined early in careers. They think everyone should throw exactly the same way, despite the fact that not everyone is built the same way. Rule #1 is: You don't mess with something that works.
I remember seeing Pete Rose talking about how to get out of a slump. His basic idea was that you either chance your position at the plate or choke up or down more. Frank Thomas asked him if you change your swing, and he replied, "Why change the thing that get you there in the first place?"
While this isn't a matter of coaching pitching, the example of Mel Ott for the Giant gives a very good example of how not to ruin a player by coaching. He is one of the few Hall of Fame hitters who never played in the minor leagues. That's because when he was in high school, John McGraw immediately saw how talented Ott was and that his unorthodox swing worked very well for him. McGraw signed him directly out of high school to keep him away from the minor leagues because he feared that somebody would "correct" his swing and ruin him. The only other player I know with a swing like Mel Ott's is Japanese slugger Sadaharu Oh, who ironically also played for the (Yomuiri) Giants.
Johnson said that he didn't understand why his style wasn't favored by managers because he believed it put less stress on the arm. BTW check out Henry W Thomas's book Walter Johnson Baseball's Big Train
capacitance-rca1981 - some of those mounds Johnson threw from in the turn of the century were barely bumps at all. Standards were seriously lacking in those days. You assume everything was always perfectly manicured like it is now.
capacitance-rca1981 I agree with you. Ryan, in my opinion, was physically the most gifted pitcher to ever play the game. He could do it all, and his stamina and strength pitching basically all-out on every pitch is absolutely mind blowing. The movement on his pitches were a big reason he had control problems...it was like taming a raging bull.
Keep in mind a pitchers velocity does not result from whipping his arm; it results from the speed at which his hips rotate during the delivery. With the mechanics I see on these old films, Johnson created phenomenal torque from H & S sep and PHA and when combined with his release, extension and decel provided pitch velocity not seen in any other pitcher until Grove and Feller came along.
My grandfather told me many years ago that he had a chance to stand in the box against Johnson while he was still an amateur in Idaho. He said it was an easy at bat as he never got the bat off his shoulder because the ball looked to be the size of a pea as it went by.
@@brucestewart7371 My grandfather drank quite a bit and had a casual relationship with the truth, that's why Johnson coming from western Idaho made the story believable. Beyond that, who knows, lol.
@@elainechubb971 Yes, born in Kansas, moved to California but moved to Idaho where he worked for the telephone company and played for Weiser, Idaho in what was then the Idaho State League where he was discovered and signed by the Washington Senators. Well documented and part of Ken Burns documentary on the history of baseball.
@@lavonwatson8814 Thank you for enlightening me! i am now in awe of the Senators' scouts, who somehow found this diamond in what was surely very unpromising territory--Idaho must surely be home to very short-season play.
Walter Johnson was also an excellent batsman, for a pitcher. Over his career, his offense added about twelve wins to his teams, compared to the average pitcher.
Johnson holds the record for batting average for a starting pitcher. Hit .433 in 1925. Now that MLB has the DH in both leagues, that record will not be broken. Also once hit a home run into the tree behind the 30 or 40 foot fence in right-center at Griffith Stadium, which was about 430 feet from home.
"Johnson holds the record for batting average for a starting pitcher. Hit .433 in 1925. Now that MLB has the DH in both leagues, that record will not be broken." Also, now that nobody hits .400 anymore that record will not be broken.
@@redskindan78 And hit 2 home runs that year, too. he turned 37 in 1925! in his early years he was a pinch hitter and sometimes played the outfield. Funnily enough, Warren Spahn hit .333 with 2 home runs the year he turned 37. johnson and Spahn both had 21-year careers in the majors.
I will tell you what he is doing right: Johnson's velocity arose mainly from his mechanics. Note the severity of his hip and shoulder separation in the midst of his delivery. (You can view on youtube a ESPN Sports Science segment on Aroldis Chapman which explains hip and shoulder separation.) Few pitchers in baseball history had the flexibility in his hips to get to what I would estimate is 60% separation. Most get to about 35-40%. The majority of a pitcher's velo comes from this tactic. Johnson is also able to achieve posterior horizontal abduction, that is, getting the back of his forearm parallel to the ground during his arm stroke. ALL the hard throwers can do this--from Johnson to Feller to Koufax to Chapman.
@capacitance-rca1981 After the 1968 season (the so called "year of the pitcher") the mound height was lowered 5 inches, from 15 inches to 10 inches, where it remains today. Nolan was great but was not the greatest ever. Oh...and your holiness...please describe the physics to us. In detail. I can't wait.
The greatest pitcher of all time by far. He later said in an interview that he pitched like that because it gave him more speed and was less taxing on his arm
@@josephperkins2740 he is the greatest pitcher of all time. The only gu/s i can think of that are even comparable are Koufax, Randy Johnson, Martinez, and Maddux
I read that in Hank Thomas's biography of Johnson. Although Johnson and Cobb were good friends, they competed fiercely. Until about 1916, Johnson had an edge. Then Cobb noticed that Johnson pitched a little away from a batter, because, as you say, Johnson feared crippling or killing a batter. Cobb then began crowding the plate, swinging only at strikes over the outer half of the plate. Cobb's hitting improved against Johnson.
@@redskindan78 Great book, that was his Grandson's book! Although if memory served that was 1915. Way after he retired Johnson would pitch to his son-who could not understand how with that easy delivery, & being able to hit big strong college kids-he could not get around on the fastball. Then he began to realize how fasy he must have been in his prime.
Actually I think the Texas Rangers have the old Senators records since Washington was granted an expansion team named the Senators shortly after the first team moved to Minnesota.After about 12 years or so that Senators team moved to Texas. The current Nationals are a National league team descended from the Montreal Expos.
According to Sam Crawford, Walter liked his model bats. Sam graciously would give him one or two and Johnson, if a game wasn’t close, would ease up on a fastball that he could belt.
i read he never pitched inside because he feared injuring or even killing a batter if he hit him. Ty Cobb took advantage of that and didn't back up at all.
The Senators finished last only twice in the 21 seasons Johnson was pitching -- 1907 (Johnson's rookie season) and 1909. Washington won the American league title in '24 and '25 . Walter's greatness was keeping them out of the bottom of the standings for so long. A significant percentage of his losses were 3-2, and 2-1. Had he enjoyed playing for a better hitting club, he would have probably won 500+ games and maybe the pitcher of the year award would not have been named after Cy Young.
I got to watch '57 Washington Senators at Griffith Stadium, Harmon Killebrew and Camilo Pascual''s rookie seasons, Duke Snider's best with 42 home runs. What a treat for a 10 yr old!
@@philipclock It was. I am a year younger, and remember going to Opening Day at Griffith Stadium in 1954. Bitterly remember 1959, when the Nats had Sievers, Lemon, Killebrew, and Allison, "The Modern Murderer's Row", Pascual won 17 games with a 2.60 ERA, and the team broke the record for consecutive losses. Ah, but that made 2019 even sweeter.
@@Mike_LaFontaine75 - Perhaps, but we will never know because he never got a chance (...until much later in his career, still very good but well past his prime) to face up with the best of his contemporaries (...excepting perhaps, Josh Gibson). Yes, I know about his barnstorming games against Feller's Fellows - but that is not a full major league season (...although it certainly suggests that he would have at the very least been one of the best ever given a fair chance). Yep, we all got cheated on that one....
@@SlothKatz Many white contemporaries wrote about the greatness of SP, but you are correct, we can never know. I remember a couple decades ago when the 'experts' proclaimed a Japanese ballplayer couldn't compete in the majors because their leagues were at best AAA level. Enter Ishiro.
I'm no expert on this, but when I've watched film on him, I was struck by a couple of things: 1.) He had the nearly perfect physique for a pitcher. He wasn't overly tall (6'1") but his arms were extremely long and obviously very flexible. This allowed him a whip-like effect where the end of his arm would reach high velocity and impart that velocity to the ball, the same way the end of a whip can go momentarily supersonic (and create a crack, which is a mini sonic boom). I think that calling his delivery "whip-like" is more than just a metaphor. 2.) The ease with which he threw, coupled with his side-arm motion, must have been very deceptive even though he threw mostly fastballs. Hitters, especially right handers, would see the ball late and then have a hard time judging the velocity. 3.) I wonder if his side-arm delivery was a factor in why he was able to pitch so many innings in his 20-plus year career. It seems to me his type of delivery has to be less stressful on the shoulder than the extreme overhand taught these days. But this is only speculation of course; it might all be explained by his unique physical gifts.
Lou Mencken that side arm delivery looks to me like it may have been a way for him to hide the ball as it seems to be harder to pick up. It looks like it would be coming from his body as soon as he releases it, it's obscured by his uniform being right behind it, rather than being able to pick the ball up from release from his hand which would be away from his body either above or below the elbow.
Sidearm is much easier on the shoulder but it can be harder on the elbow. Walter tried. To pitch with 3/4 slot but it slow him down and made his shoulder sore. It was natural for him to pitch from sidearm. I pitch from the side arm position and I throw it faster and more control. Also easier on your back.
@@jeffreysmith5175 Interesting, but I read his Grandson's Biography & do not recall that he experimented with another delivery. Can you please site a source for that information?
The trainer for the Old Senators said that Johnson's motion would allow Johnson to pitch until he turned 50. Not a giant over-statement. Johnson retired after 1927. In that Spring Training a line-drive broke his leg. Johnson came back toward the end of the season, but did not have the leg strength he had had.
MVP award was hella different back in the days. With that said, those who said Cy Young was the best pitcher because of his wins total needs to look at Walter Johnson, his era and strikeouts blows him out.
We tend to give strikeouts disproportionately more credit than other outs for some reason, as outs are outs regardless. But a case can be made for both being the best. 100 more victories isnt too shabby.
@@sandmanlogan5ran149 He also had more losses and higher era as well, that's pretty shabby to me. Only thing what Cy Young had over Johnson was innings pitched since even for dead ball era pitching advantages, pitchers still has to throw a lot of pitches to log in that many innings. However overall, he doesn't have a case over Walter Johnson as the best pitcher of their time.
The problem with your argument is that you seem to be devaluing victories, when really, what else matters? Young's winning % is higher, had the lowest WHIP 7 times to Johnsons 6, and their WAR is basically the same. Honestly, I cant pick between them. If you held a gun to my head, I might pick Koufax anyway , because for about 6 years he was as good as either of them and won 3 titles in that span.
@@sandmanlogan5ran149 WAR has their own context that often led to them getting overvalued or undervalued, I wouldn't use them as part of the argument if anything. Plus the problem with your argument is that you tried to overvalue win totals which are often the product of the quality of the team one would pitch for and when you look at the difference of their overall ERA and WHIP, it wasn't all that close. Your preference for Sandy Koufax is hardly relevant to the argument though had it been, I'd go with Pedro's peak due to the era he pitched in where he had his peak in the time when the offense were ridiculously juiced. Only knock against the guy was that even in his prime he tends to get dinged up, causing him to miss a start even if he doesn't land in a DL.
Koufax is relevant to the argument , because I think he was the best even over Johnson and Young.We live in a funny world where wins are now "overvalued".They are TODAY maybe, in the age of 5 inning starts and there are specialists pitching 7th and 8th and 9th innings,but you went all nine back then and 3 other guys didnt carry you to a win. I am not going to knock Young for pitching 2000+ more innings and then give Johnson credit for NOT pitching as many. Lets see Johnsons ERA with 7 more seasons worth of innings tacked on to his arm.Neither pitched during an offensive era, but Johnsons ERA started rising just as the Ruth era was beginning. The only all time record Johnson owns is career shutouts , which is great, But young has 76 himself which is also quite a bit..As far as team quality goes, the Cleveland Spiders were hardly a juggernaut in their day. Pedro may not even have been the best in his own era, as Randy Johnson was every bit as good and accomplished.
Walter Johnson's Locker in Cooperstown is the most vivid memory I have of visiting the HOF back in the late 80's. Johnson is Bruce Lee, a demigod, in a hall full of worthy but lesser mortals. Jackie Chan and Chuck Norris just aren't on the same plane as WJ., His uniform which was made of some really hot, heavy wool was like Big Train, larger than life. Looking at his never-to-be duplicated stats, and then seeing his personal stuff from his old Senators mini crib was quietly awe inspiring. If there ever a Superman played the game it was Johnson.
"Hey" Ty Cobb spoke of two ways to hit against Johnson. 1st was to crowd the plate, Johnson didn't wan't to hurt anyone so if you crowded the plate he would ease up some. 2nd was to never actually swing at a Johnson fastball as you'll rarely hit it. So basically put your bat into the strike zone and if you made contact, the ball was coming in so fast you were at least guaranteed a single if you didn't foul it off. In many recollections, there was mention of the distinctive sound the ball made as it headed towards the plate. One time Babe Ruth was struck out on a called third strike and turned to the Umpire and asked "You sure? The Umpire replied "Yes, it was right in there" As Ruth began walking away he muttered "I thought it sounded a bit low"
Considering how long he pitched, how many pitches he threw, his lack of arm injuries, and his incredible success, maybe he knew what he was doing, and maybe today's coaches are just wrong?
Babe Ruth ended that. Christy Matthewson said he didn't pitch as hard when he wasn't in a jam, but when batters started hitting home runs a lot of pitchers that kept doing that got shelled.
@@jpjpjp453 he truly revolutionized the screwball. But he had a good fastball as well. He was once tested at 90.6 mph in 1917. That was after he retired. I have no doubt he could hum it close to 95 in his prime
It is too bad we don't have more film on some of these old players. It might be interesting to see how many of these guys survived as they did. e.g. How could Joe "Iron Man" McGinnity pitch 434 innings and win 31 games one year and then pitch 408 innings the next year and go 35-8 with a 1.61 ERA and a WHIP of 0.963 in the next year? He often pitched both sides of a double-header and won both games. They called him "iron man" because he worked in his father-in-law's steel mill in the offseason, not because he was such a tough guy.
The guy was just a freak of nature. His delivery made a lot of sense for his time, given that pitching staffs were very small and pitchers threw to contact to limit the strain on their arms. But they weren’t supposed to be able to throw un-hittable pitches. Lol. He got the best of both worlds: little strain, big time cheese.
Thanks for this video and the additional footage of Johnson's motion - including the "MLB the Show" portrayal. Bill James wondered back in 1987 why sidearm and submarine deliveries faded out. I'd never seen footage of Walter Johnson's until about two years ago and it struck me. Motion looks so easy, unstrained. Natural for the greatest pitcher of all time. Thanks again. Washington did have something to cheer about before last year's Series win.
You said he did not use his legs and hips but when you watch his motion you can see he does lead with his hips and legs. His motion is just more compact than many of today's pitchers. He had to be a extra strong man to throw with that compact motion. Jimmie Foxx the great HR hitter had a very compact swing and he hit 534 homers. I just figured he had to be as strong as a bull to hit that many.
@capacitance-rca1981 ryan leads all time in walks. Lead the league in losses more times than he lead the league wins (he never lead the league in wins) and he never won a cy young. I'll take Johnson over him any day
iamhungey12345 Yeah for real. Do the Nats actually take credit for Walter Johnson? That’s like the Mets honoring Jackie Robinson with the main entrance to their stadium (it’s called the Jackie Robinson rotunda).
need one on lefty grove. That's always been the question. How would the players of old stack up against modern. His mechanics was purposeful, to throw all game, they had to.
Most of the film of WJ throwing is him warming up. The few videos we have of him in a game have him using his hips, body turn, and a long, loose efficient throwing action with a whip-like follow through. I'd compare his motion favorably to Randy Johnson, and note that while WJ was only 6', he had very long arms for his height. According to the players that played during that era, the fastest pitchers up through the 1930's were Walter Johnson and Smokey Joe Wood. Many of the same players who faced them, say they compared their fast balls to that of Bob Feller, who, by modern speed gun standards, had a fast ball well in excess of 100mph.
You know, you talk about how Johnson’s delivery doesn’t make sense, but he had plenty of clearance from his body, and threw with a minimum of effort. He created enough whip action with his upper body instead of his legs, which is super human. It also was a simple, repeatable windup. Something all pitching coaches teach. Only difference is his follow through, he basically used his front leg as a tool for balance instead of guidance, I.e., the ball goes where your front foot ends up. His abbreviated motion probably helped conserve energy, because the only things working were his arm and hips. The modern day comparison is Strasburg. Since he’s switched to throwing from the stretch 100% of the time, his command has improved drastically. It’s very similar to Johnson’s windup, it’s a quarter turn with the hips so you don’t lose the target. He’s basically just throwing the ball, too. Although his velocity went down to 94, he’s shortened and simplified his windup. Maybe you could do a comparison video using those two guys, since they’re similar in stature. Watching old film, trying to see how fast guys through is pretty interesting for comparison. There’s extended Koufax footage in the ‘65 World Series, and just by sight he looks pretty close to 100 mph at times.Mickey Lolich and Gibson in ‘68 series. There’s footage of Jim Palmer in the ‘69 series where he and Gary Gentry look like they’re in the mid/high 90’s. Then Ryan comes in the game and throws 100. But really, if you’re talking about pure FEAR, Walter Johnson with a little extra mustard on it coming in SIDEARM at 100 mph, you’re looking at the man that wrote the book on power pitching. Period. In any era. Nice video despite the obnoxious delivery.
Well the average talent was just fhe same. Think about it. There is double the teams now which means the average talent is deluded witb players who would not be good enough to crack a roster on the 16 teams they had back then. And they did work out. Many worked on a farm hauling cattle, many ran, did calisthenics, cross-country hunted witn ankle weights that made their legs stronger, they also chopped down trees in the winter, and played in barnstorming games. And they walked EVERYWHERE. Cars were lacking back then so all they did was walk. Look at pictures from the public back then, how many fat people do you see? Very few. And yes theybhad 2nd jobs but those hubs were typically working in mines, and mills which as far as I'm concerned, working in mines and mills for 8 hours a day is just as good as any modern workout
@@jakeob5884 Those Yankees wins were lopsided to the max, those Pirate victories were squeakers. Overall the Yankees scored something like double the runs the Pirates did, and Casey Stengel got fired in the offseason, the front office blaming him for choosing inexplicable starting pitchers when Whitey Ford could have taken the mound.
Remember his statue at old Griffith Stadium in the late fifties.There were even old fans at the park who remember the BigTrain.Taking a DC transit streetcar as a young teenager to the park was fun.After the 1960 season that sob Calvin Griffith, adopted son of beloved Clark who was dead
The most underrated aspect of Walter Johnson is that he only had one pitch, his fastball. One historian was quoted saying, "Walter Johnson's idea of a changeup was just to throw the ball harder." Ty Cobb stated that Johnson would have never given up a hit if he learned how to throw a curveball
Johnson threw a curve. He called it "the wrinkle", and used it in extra innings in the 1924 World Series to get a Giant to swing out of his shoes and strike out.
He didn't have a breaking ball when he got to the big leagues in 1907, but developed a good one later in his career. Having had the opportunity to know his daughter and grandson quite well, as well as Washington Post sportswriter Shirley Povich (who started covering the Senators in 1924 and was close with Walter), he was not only a great ballplayer, but a remarkably fine human being.
Literally none of what you said is true, and a change up is a slower pitch, so it makes zero sense to say that if he wanted to throw a change up they'd throw it faster. Did ANYONE in these comments play baseball!?!?
Johnson's pitching style was extremely deceptive which was made it so dangerous. He says that Johnson just seems to fling the ball but if you look closely, you can see that he actually engages his hips every time he throwa. He's using good mechanics but because he made it look sloppy and half speed the batter would just naturally be caught off guard when the ball came flying in
I only read about the single speed test in his Grandson's book, in 1917. Can you please produce a link showing other ones for Johnson? Also, it is important to know were they both using the same technique & in the same way: same distance, with a mound, after warm ups...Some of these tests must be wrong. Feller had the 98.6 at the PLATE, losing ~ 9 mph, in 1946. No way in 1939-he was marginally faster before the war-he was waaay slower.
6:18 and also rookies and young players! Basically the opposite of what Ty Cobb would do in his position! Suddenly his only having 1 no-hitter makes sense knowing this.
His motion was actually part of his appeal - He threw 100 MPH while barely looking like he's moving at all... When you see that motion, it looks like he's tossing, and it takes a second to catch up to the difference between the speed of the pitch and the speed of his motion, and by then you're too late.
@capacitance-rca1981 I say this with all due respect to the great Nolan Ryan, but he's not even in my top-10. Top-15, maybe. I loved watching the guy, so this is not an insult, but he allowed a lot of walks and could be a bit inconsistent.
@capacitance-rca1981 Nolan was a great pitcher. And was in my opinion the hardest thrower there was. It was amazing that Nolan threw an average of 98 through the whole game. He also did not play on good teams but he walked at least 6 or 9 batters a game. Then you look at Walter Johnson he played on bad teams too. But Walter control the plate better than Nolan did. But either way both pitchers were fantastic. Oh another thing Walter Johnson could hit.
When I was in Minneapolis watching the Twins play when I was young, I remember talking to an old-timer who had seen Walter Johnson pitch when he was young (the Twins were once the Washington Senators). He claimed that Walter Johnson in his prime threw harder than Feller, Ryan, Duren, or anyone else. The sad part is that the only film we have of Walter pitching was at the very end of his career. Even then, filming was done by a camera operator winding a crank to expose the film in the camera. Therefore, every movement was subject to the tendencies of the camera operator. Projecting just how fast someone threw from that old film was next to impossible. I believe Ty Cobb, I think still the best hitter in baseball history, when he said, "You can't hit what you can't see!" From what I could see with the film, such as it was, was that it wasn't just his fastball that threw hitters, it was how that fastball moved in the strike zone. With Walter Johnson, his fastball started at one point in the strike zone and then went down, almost like a slider. Even a fastball pitcher throwing 100 mph is no match for an MLB hitter unless it has some movement on it. That's why Kerry Wood struck out 20 guys in a game against a good Houston Astros team. His fastball that day moved in ways the hitters could not project. That's why many hitters stuck out against Walter and when they did get a hit, the ball wound up in someone's glove for an out.
Someone else said here his fastball appeared to rise. I read his Grandson's autobiography-no mention of it sinking. Do you have any sources for this? He had great movement, but the sinking motion belief could be a mistake.
@@SilverSkitterscuttle The law of gravity suggests that all objects must eventually come down to earth. The idea of the fastball rising makes sense when you consider how he threw the ball in the first place. It would depend upon how the ball came off his hand. I cannot believe he didn't have a "cutter" in his arsenal of fastballs. You don't win 36 games in a season and pitch over 300 innings in a season without having a few modifications to your fastball. Back in those days, you and your opponents had long train rides and used that time to dissect their opponents. To keep ahead of that, you had to come up with modifications to your pitches.
@@tommack352 Sure if he threw it slightly underhanded, but he threw it a little higher than strictly sidearm. Read the book by his Grandson "Baseball's Big Train" & any other source-his only other good pitch was an occasional changeup. I once read he liked to throw the curve with 2 strikes...But normally it was not very good. The exception-according to the book-was in one game in the world series, 1924-then as the shadows lengthened he threw more blazing heat.
His locker set up at Cooperstown was the most impressive thing in the entire Hall for me."Big Train" would be just another big man today but back then he was a giant.
You forgot something. There wasn't much team behind him throughout his career. The Senators were perennial losers. I read that Glory of Their Times as a kid (AWESOME book btw for true baseball historical types) and someplace in it somebody made the comment to hit Walter Johnson was like trying to eat soup with a fork.
In childhood my life's ambition was to be a pitcher for the Tigers. I consumed every base ball book I could lay hands on, and threw with Walter Johnson's low side arm. The spin from it built in a natural slider but I could not control it. Can't everyone do it! To have a chance at throwing strikes, I changed to pitching like everybody else.
TJ Janosko he pitched during a time where spit balls were allowed and the mound was taller, pretty much every rule favored pitchers and the ballparks were massive. If you use ERA- which adjusts for park factors and the time period he’s 3rd behind kershaw and pedro, and he’s 16th in FIP-. There’s no way a guy who pitched in the most pitcher-friendly time period is the greatest of all time. Meanwhile, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson put up similar stats during the steroid era.
@@robertcaffrey6532 most friendly? He faced over 20 hall of fame batters in his career, which by the way carried into the lively ball era. And just because he played in the dead ball era doesnt mean it was hitter friendly. He faced contact hitters. In an era with not alot of strikeouts, which makes his strikeout totals even more impressive. On top of that he played for a shit washington senators team. He accounted for 40% of their wins in 1912. He has a career winning percentage of .599. If he played for the red sox pr NY Giants at the time he would have a winning percentage up near .700
@@robertcaffrey6532 after comparing there careers on a more fair level. I conpared Martinez's entire career to Johnson's first 9 years. Since thats where they had similar innings pitched totals. Martinez had more wins (219 to 206) Martinez had less losses (100 to 128) Martinez had a better W-L% (.687 to .617) Johnson had a better ERA (1.61 to 2.93) Johnson had more shutouts (60 to 17) Johnson gave up less hits (2131 to 2221) Johnson gave up less runs (749 to 1006) Johnson gave up less earned runs (497 to 919) Johnson gave up less home runs (26 to 239) Johnson gave up less walks (547 to 760) Martinez had more strikeouts (3154 to 1889) Johnson had a better ERA+ (176 to 154) Johnson had a better FIP (1.93 to 2.91) Johnson had a better WHIP (0.964 to 1.054) Johnson had a better H9 (6.9 to 7.1) Johnson had a better HR9 (0.1 to 0.8) Johnson had a better BB9 (1.8 to 2.4) and Martinez had a better SO9 (10 to 6.1) Johnson beat Martinez in 13 of the 18 statistical categories here
2:45: I feel his 1913 season was the GOAT for a pitcher. In addition to the stats you posted, he started 36 games, of which 29 were complete games ( and in those days sometimes complete were more than nine innings as managers rarely relieved their starters even in extra innings if the game was tied or close). He had 11 shutouts in those 36 starts.
I personally spoke to Bob Feller back in 2009. He told me that nobody threw harder than Walter Johnson. He said that Walter Johnson threw 108-109mph throughout a game. That isn't even his maximum speed. However, Feller did tell me that Johnson did not have the greatest change up. This guy in the video is wrong about the velocity. It's been proving on average to be the same back then, as it is today. Different pitches are thrown today, as back then.
His pitching is so different compared to today's strikeout heavy, 3 true outcomes plate strategy for both hitters and pitchers. He had a lot of strikeout for sure, though considering his innings load, his strike out rate is actually considerably lower than modern power pitchers, generally only around 5 or 6 per 9 innings. Not much by today's standards. So batters put a lot of balls in play against him. But he rarely issued walks and his batting average for balls in play was consistently and incredibly low. No one could get solid contact on him. Perhaps it was his weird motion. He also managed to strand an unusually large percentage of runners. Even though he is considered a power pitcher (and was for the time) he was really as much a crafty game manager. Either way, he did it better than anyone.
Very good, but I would add that nobody could have the nearly same K totals, since all hitters were going for contact not homers for the vast majority of his innings pitched. Also: there is a huge chance that he was very fast or the fastest in the majors of any & all times. Because this unlike say strength training (& taking PEDs) is a natural skill that cannot be improved that much. Look up Steve Dalkowski-everyone who saw him pitch, including many major league players & managers-said he was the fastest of all time.
This guy might be not only the best pitcher of all-time but the best player. He hit 24 career HRs playing 75% of his prime in the deadball era. He had 41 career 3Bs which is more than ARod & Pujols career totals. He fielded 1.000% 5 seasons and 3x while pitching more than 300 Innings, of course, using tiny gloves. His fastball was measured in a very dubious method in 1917 after he had pitched an average of 350 INNs the previous 7 seasons. That was not his ultimate fastball which compared well to any in the history of the game. Pro baseball began 150 years ago. There is very little new in the last 50 years or so. This is not brain surgery but a boy's game. Getting back to his incomparable pitching career, he won 20 games 5 times for a losing team. No other pitcher did that more than twice since 1900 and he won 38 1-0 games of which that number is more than the career total of SHOs by at least 37 HOF pitchers (of course, incl. relievers). BTW, 9 relievers in the HOF is utterly ridiculous. Thinking a pitcher who throws 70 innings a season is equal to one who throws 270 is absurd. The vast majority of closers save the vast majority of their games because the odds are strongly with them to not allow runs in one inning let alone facing 1 or 2 batters and the odds also say a 3rd of the time they are facing the bottom of the batting order. "The Big Train" might also be the greatest nickname in sports history.
the REVERSE wind-up is very important. It stretches the arm muscles in the opposite position than the pitching motion - enabling them to snap forward with greater force, You can see Muhammid Ali swinging his right arm in reverse before the bell against Ken Norton because he was depending on his right hand punch for vitory. This is the secret for being able to pitch so many innings.
Ty Cobb's description said all you need to know about Walter Johnson's speed. It "hissed with danger." A guy throwing 91 mph doesn't have a noisy fastball. It takes elite speed to create a pitch that a hitter can hear.
Your arm gets stronger the more often you throw. Something the modern game has gotten away from. It will be sore at first but it heals quicker if you do it on a regular basis. That was how those old timers used to pitch 40+ games a year. If you take 5 days rest then that is what your body will get used to.
I totally agree. It's something how generations change. When I was a kid (back in the 70's) listening to games on the radio with my grandfather, he would lament that relievers were ruining baseball. This was when guys like Quisenberry, Fingers, Hrabosky, Sutter, and of course, Gossage were making their bones. As a kid, I of course took the "okay, Boomer" type attitude towards whet he was talking about, but he turned out to be right. Now you have starters who are being brought up with the "five and dive" mentality. The thing that really gets me is that we now know so much more about training, nutrition, even sleep, and the surgical procedures have improved by leaps and bounds. Today's pitchers (hell, any athletes) should be DESTROYING these types of records, but instead, we watch stuff like this and shake our heads.
@@Nhamp2000 Right and im not saying throw it as hard as you can on every pitch and destroy your arm. Because that will happen if that's what you try to do. I feel like that's kind of what modern pitchers have evolved into. They've become specialists who are taught to try and throw 100 mph on every pitch. Unfortunately that prematurely destroys their arm. They just need to pitch naturally and comfortably. It shouldn't hurt to pitch. And when you throw often like every 2 or 3 days your arm will be strong. You're building endurance. It shouldn't get sore unless you do something stupid like throwing as hard as you can too much. It may get tired which is what will happen but it wont get sore. Building endurance is why those old timers could pitch 50 complete games a year.
The all-time great modern pitcher who was the most like Walter (Big Train) Johnson was another Johnson. Randy (Big Unit) Johnson. Randy Johnson had a similar motion to Walter Johnson in that he kind of slung the ball up to home plate instead of pitching or throwing it. Because of that neither of the Johnsons had a serious arm injury in their long careers. Also each of the Johnsons played on one World Series championship team. Walter Johnson with the 1924 Washington Senators and Randy Johnson with the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks. Randy Johnson won 303 games and struck out 4875 batters in his career.
@@tjjanosko133 you don't understand what i said. i mean you need to put all of your body and all of you arm into your windup to be an effective pitcher because you need to use everything to throw 90+ mph. this windup would be useless because not only can 99/100 people not reach 90s with it but your curveball wouldn't move since you can't snap it from that angle.
6:07: Here is a story I read somewhere attributed to Babe Ruth: Johnson struck Babe Ruth out on three straight fastballs. After the third strike Babe asked the umpire, "Did you see any of those pitches?" "No," said the ump. "Neither did I," said Babe, "but that last one sounded a little low."
I mean we didn’t start measuring the speed of pitches coming out of the hand until fairly recently even during Nolan Ryan’s era they tended to measure it at the plate which loses a few miles per hour so he could have been throwing 98 or 99 and given how the military was certainly measuring it as well as the fact he was well past his prime, I think he might be throwing harder than we think.
I have a computer baseball game I play and I have the pitching award named the Walter Johnson Award because I think he blows Cy Young out of the water in dominance. I also imported him as a player into a modern fictional league under the name of Johnny Walters along with Alex Peterson (Pete Alexander), Theo Williams, and Matt Christy (Christy Mathewson) just for kicks.
It is funny that people today dismiss and disbelieve what those who were actually there and experienced it say. Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Babe Ruth, and Dizzy Dean seem to have used almost identical pitching motions, and to great success. Others surely did as well. All people are made different, and it surprises me that people and coaches try keeping young pitchers from even trying to use the pitching motion of the two winningest pitchers in baseball history. But then again, in 1974 when Tommy John surgery was first invented, several teams still used the 4 man pitching rotation and the 24 teams AVERAGED 42 complete games apiece, and Mike Marshall pitched in 106 games and worked 162 relief innings, and in both 1971 and 1972 both Wilbur Wood and Mickey Lolich worked over 350 innings. With all our advances in training methods and medicine, as well as financial rewards for players, one would think we would be progressing, and every team would have a couple guys tossing 15 complete games and 300 innings with a star reliever working 120 innings and winning at least 8 games per year. No wonder the older pitchers quietly mock today's pitchers who are paid for the quality of each inning, rather than what they did for their team over the season or seasons. Who's more valuable to a team, a guy who works 180 innings, goes 10-9 with 220 strikeouts,. 0 complete games, or a guy who works 280 innings, goes 19-11, strikes out only 95, with 17 complete games where relief pitchers weren't necessary and could be saved for other less talented starters? Sabermetrics made a mistake in not calculating the importance of innings, complete games, and victories. Count how many times a pitcher won 25+ games from 1960-1980.(17?) Then notice 25 victories has only been done ONCE since. Then count the 20- and 15- game winners 1960-1980. Now count those of 2000-2020. Baseball has been regressing for a long time, because pitchers are no longer even competitive with those of yesterday. They no longer win MVPs. They obviously do not have the respect. But hey, with their better training methods and medicine, they can have their high strikeouts and long careers. And keep sidearm pitchers out of the game. And only let girls play softball so there are more Dottie Millers who compiled a career record of 6 wins and 10 losses against all male opponents. I know that's not a great record. But how many major league games have you won? Given the chance, some real girl might surpass her one day
Remember Rube Marquet, and Smoky Joe Wood in 1912, what a season with Walter Johnson. Also the modern baseball called the jackrabbit was introduced in December 1920, this was the end of the old tobacco pouch ball.
The difference was they kept introducing new balls after Carl May was killed, so it did not get soft. The construction had changed in 1911: but nobody was seeking home runs due to the old dead ball & larger stadiums. Ruth came in & changed that with his massive uppercut. But in1911 they put in the cork center. And offense increased that year! Ruth just exploited an untapped potential brilliantly.
@@SilverSkitterscuttle according to all of my old newspapers and magazines from 1890 thru 2021, the dead ball era was finished on December 12 1919. Prior to that it was common to see a bases full in field home run. Back then it was a game of true strategy bunt, hit, off hit...until this kid a left paw pitcher came to the Yankees. McGraw had used the old method of playing baseball, hit there, bunt, get a man on base and try to get 1 home. George hit the ball out of the park...600yds on the fly, it stopped 6 blocks from the ball park. Well old McGraw handed the kid a stern word, a fine...and the Babe was born.
Jack Morris was once asked How come your ERA is high but you win so many games?" He explained that he pitched to the situation. If his team was up 5-0 he would let up on his velocity and save his best pitches for later in the game. So, if the game was then 5-3 in the 8th inning he would go back to his better and pitches. This made his ERA over 3 but he would win and pitch a CG or close to it. That is how every MLB pitcher pitched prior to 1990. Since 1990 it has been a snowball affect that pitchers are now THROWERS not pitchers.
Johnson led the Senators to their only World Series title while the team was in Washington in 1924 (The Big Train won the seventh and final game of that series which went 12 innings). The Senators returned to the World Series in 1925 but did not win. It would be another 95 years before a Washington-based baseball team would win a World Series when the Nationals won in 2019.
That's what I always heard that Ty Cobb told that umpire when he asked him are you sure it was right down the middle, it sound like it was high to me...
It's a testament alright, however most mechanics make absolute sense. Heck I'm a sidearm pitcher, but my mechanics are a little sluggish. However there is a good chance that a coach could allow some mechanics to be shown like that. Even I do that which a lot of people would have trouble seeing because it's not new but would often ask me of I throw higher. No I don't, I naturally pitch sidearm has it's conforming for me.
Very interesting throwing motion, but it's not unbelievable to me that it could succeed with the right elements. With those very long arms, I imagine he used his right arm much like a whip. I would also think that he got crazy movement on his sinker and slide piece. Thanks for a very cool video.
BTW- He’s an hometown hero here in Brea, CA!!! Also the dust bowl exhibition game with Babe Ruth in Brea on 10/1/24; the banner hangs in the HOF. I’m soooo proud to live in Brea & hopefully we’ll see another baseball legend to come out of here!
@@SilverSkitterscuttle His family move to Brea, CA in 1902 Walter was 11yrs old and went to school in Fullerton... Walter put together a exhibition game on in Brea, CA on October 31, 1924 with Babe Ruth, and the banner of that game resides in the Baseball hall of fame. You can google it, and have pictures of that game. The barm-like building in the background is still standing & is a community tire center. Walter has said that Brea-Olinda was his hometown, and will always love it!!
@@todddenny1483 Now I recall the move, thank you for the information Todd! Imagine seeing that game, & the year the nation was rooting for The Big Train to lead his team to a World Championship! After he accomplished that...
What makes Johnson's accomplishments even more amazing is that he basically had one pitch. His off-speed stuff was nothing to write home about. Johnson's depended upon excellent control and movement with his side-arm fastball to get batters out.
I provided some research assistance to Henry Thomas' terrific bio of Johnson, who was his grandfather. I spent some quality time with his mom Carolyn, Walter's daughter, and they seemed to think his sidearm motion put less strain on his elbow and shoulder. I certainly agree that pitchers during his era didn't throw as hard as they do now. I sat with the great Shirley Povich of the Washington Post, who knew Walter quite well, and he talked about Walter coming down to the field in his street clothes and dress shoes in his late 40's and throwing harder than the much younger Washington pitchers on the staff. Johnson also had planned a comeback when he managed the club in the 1929-32 period when he was short a couple of arms. He abandoned those plans when his wife Hazel died unexpectedly. The greatest RHP of all time? No doubt.
2:20 . . . . wait . . . did you say he was "33 TO 12?" I've been watching baseball for around 40 years and I have never heard a pitchers record given with the word "TO" He went "33 AND 12" that year. Also . . . the ERA was one point three nine - NOT - one point thirty nine. . . . . . Do you refer to a batting average as "point three hundred?"
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Listen pal, I'm the expert of players not making sense. Juan Soto doesn't make any sense. That being said, you're absolutely correct.
Foolish Baseball Why? Because his birth certificate says he’s 23 but his face says he’s 42?
The greater pitcher ever was Sandy Koufax who put together 6 unreal seasons plus miraculous post seasons. Ryan couldn't even pitch a 9 inning game without any walks.
@capacitance-rca1981 "The greatest pitcher ever was Nolan Ryan?" Hardly.
I can name 20 pitchers who were better than Ryan, who was only marginally better than the teams he played on. He was smarginally better than a .500 pitcher, with a win/loss of 52.6%, playing on teams (Mets, Angels, Astros, Rangers) with a winning % of 50.4%. Check those stats. How does THAT compare with Seaver, Pedro, Maddux, Koufax, and 16 others? Yes, I know he had over 5,000 strikeouts and 7 no-hitters, but he lost 292 games! How does that compare to the greats?
@capacitance-rca1981 By your logic, Pete Rose is the greatest hitter ever because he had the most lifetime hits.
@@markgraham2312 Nolan Ryan pitched 23 or 24 seasons, no comparison.
That pitching motion is how you pitch 300+ innings every year for 20 years.
That, plus a dead baseball.
@@marcosmith2501 Well not quite right. Check the strike outs. He still had to throw the ball did he not?
Like Tim Wakefield and the knuckler
I wish Kerry Wood would’ve learned from this guy. He had a golden arm that was wasted!
Yeah I’m thinking the same thing. I was studying his throwing motion closely and it’s about as close as you can be to throwing underhanded like girls do in softball. Now the girls in our softball little league don’t have a pitch count like the boys do. And the girls don’t seem to get arm injuries like the boys do. It has me completely reconsidering pitching and throwing mechanics
I experimented pitching with Walter Johnson's motion, as best as I could create it from the movies. It's amazingly easy to throw very hard without putting any stress on your arm, though it "feels weird" until you get the hang of it. Almost all of the work is done by the twisting of the trunk. No stress on the shoulder, no stress on the elbow. You actually do use a lot of your body, you just don't use it in the conventional way. And the ball is really well hidden. It's a bit hard to throw a curveball or slider, but it is possible, and there would be other options like a circle change or a knuckleball.
His delivery and deceptive release was the key. I have a feeling he was extremely flexible too because he wasn’t out there training with weights and stuff like that.
Walter Johnson said that his arm didn't really get loose until about 100 pitches. This means that he was throwing even harder late in the game . Today pitching over 200 innings a season is taboo. He was pitching 300+ like a walk in the park .
He and Cy Young said the problem with pitchers who came after them was that they didn't pitch enough innings.
@@danielfronc4304 Lefty Grove once pitched a complete game that went 17 innings.
I stopped watching baseball because of the way things are done now. It is a shame that today's players don't learn from the legends.
❤️ walter johnson & his 95 mph plus fastball
@@pak40l46 Today's players are nothing but pampered little gaywads.
His 110 career shutouts is probably the most unbreakable record of all time
Cal Ripken Jr ironman streak imo.
Cy Young: 749 Complete Games. 511 Wins. Modern pitchers will not even get 500 starts. Both records are impossible to break.
Johnny Vander Meer. Back-to-Back no-hitters. No one will ever throw 3 in a row!
Ever heard of Will White?
Oh My Money
"Are you sure about that last one ump? It sounded high." - Babe Ruth
When I pitch with him in mlb the show he doesnt hardly move and throws 100 mph
I’ve wondered the same thing
Yeah he was really the first guy to throw hard for a full game. He probably averaged like 96.5 on any given fastball. And topped at 99 or 100. Cobb actually said his windup looked unimpressive at first but the first time he faced johnson, his fastball made him flinch
Lmao I feel you, it’s probably because it’s not his 99 card yet 😂
“Doesn’t hardly move”...
When measured and adjusted for out of hand he only threw 93
"There is basically 0% chance that any pitching coach today would allow his mechanics to stay this way." This is why a lot of pitching coaches today are idiots, and a lot of arms are ruined early in careers. They think everyone should throw exactly the same way, despite the fact that not everyone is built the same way. Rule #1 is: You don't mess with something that works.
I remember seeing Pete Rose talking about how to get out of a slump. His basic idea was that you either chance your position at the plate or choke up or down more. Frank Thomas asked him if you change your swing, and he replied, "Why change the thing that get you there in the first place?"
Sounds like the problem with the Orioles' pitching development.
While this isn't a matter of coaching pitching, the example of Mel Ott for the Giant gives a very good example of how not to ruin a player by coaching. He is one of the few Hall of Fame hitters who never played in the minor leagues. That's because when he was in high school, John McGraw immediately saw how talented Ott was and that his unorthodox swing worked very well for him. McGraw signed him directly out of high school to keep him away from the minor leagues because he feared that somebody would "correct" his swing and ruin him. The only other player I know with a swing like Mel Ott's is Japanese slugger Sadaharu Oh, who ironically also played for the (Yomuiri) Giants.
@@eddiejc1 Excellent example!
Rule#2 always remember rule #1..
Johnson said that he didn't understand why his style wasn't favored by managers because he believed it put less stress on the arm. BTW check out Henry W Thomas's book Walter Johnson Baseball's Big Train
@capacitance-rca1981 you obviously didn't watch the video. He talks about the mound dumb ass.
capacitance-rca1981 - some of those mounds Johnson threw from in the turn of the century were barely bumps at all. Standards were seriously lacking in those days. You assume everything was always perfectly manicured like it is now.
capacitance-rca1981 I agree with you. Ryan, in my opinion, was physically the most gifted pitcher to ever play the game. He could do it all, and his stamina and strength pitching basically all-out on every pitch is absolutely mind blowing. The movement on his pitches were a big reason he had control problems...it was like taming a raging bull.
capacitance-rca1981 Jeter was a leader and a winner. He has the 3000+ hits to get in anyway, but it’s his intangibles as well.
I don't think many pitchers had the build and flexibility to make it work like he did
Keep in mind a pitchers velocity does not result from whipping his arm; it results from the speed at which his hips rotate during the delivery. With the mechanics I see on these old films, Johnson created phenomenal torque from H & S sep and PHA and when combined with his release, extension and decel provided pitch velocity not seen in any other pitcher until Grove and Feller came along.
My grandfather told me many years ago that he had a chance to stand in the box against Johnson while he was still an amateur in Idaho. He said it was an easy at bat as he never got the bat off his shoulder because the ball looked to be the size of a pea as it went by.
I’m surprised he saw it. The first time Cobb stepped in against him, he said he only heard it. Three times and back to the bench 😁
@@brucestewart7371 My grandfather drank quite a bit and had a casual relationship with the truth, that's why Johnson coming from western Idaho made the story believable. Beyond that, who knows, lol.
@@lavonwatson8814 Walter johnson was born in kansas, and his family moved to California when he was still in school. he didn't come from idaho.
@@elainechubb971 Yes, born in Kansas, moved to California but moved to Idaho where he worked for the telephone company and played for Weiser, Idaho in what was then the Idaho State League where he was discovered and signed by the Washington Senators. Well documented and part of Ken Burns documentary on the history of baseball.
@@lavonwatson8814 Thank you for enlightening me! i am now in awe of the Senators' scouts, who somehow found this diamond in what was surely very unpromising territory--Idaho must surely be home to very short-season play.
Walter Johnson was also an excellent batsman, for a pitcher. Over his career, his offense added about twelve wins to his teams, compared to the average pitcher.
Johnson holds the record for batting average for a starting pitcher. Hit .433 in 1925. Now that MLB has the DH in both leagues, that record will not be broken. Also once hit a home run into the tree behind the 30 or 40 foot fence in right-center at Griffith Stadium, which was about 430 feet from home.
"Johnson holds the record for batting average for a starting pitcher. Hit .433 in 1925. Now that MLB has the DH in both leagues, that record will not be broken."
Also, now that nobody hits .400 anymore that record will not be broken.
@@redskindan78 And hit 2 home runs that year, too. he turned 37 in 1925! in his early years he was a pinch hitter and sometimes played the outfield. Funnily enough, Warren Spahn hit .333 with 2 home runs the year he turned 37. johnson and Spahn both had 21-year careers in the majors.
I will tell you what he is doing right: Johnson's velocity arose mainly from his mechanics. Note the severity of his hip and shoulder separation in the midst of his delivery. (You can view on youtube a ESPN Sports Science segment on Aroldis Chapman which explains hip and shoulder separation.) Few pitchers in baseball history had the flexibility in his hips to get to what I would estimate is 60% separation. Most get to about 35-40%. The majority of a pitcher's velo comes from this tactic. Johnson is also able to achieve posterior horizontal abduction, that is, getting the back of his forearm parallel to the ground during his arm stroke. ALL the hard throwers can do this--from Johnson to Feller to Koufax to Chapman.
@capacitance-rca1981 After the 1968 season (the so called "year of the pitcher") the mound height was lowered 5 inches, from 15 inches to 10 inches, where it remains today. Nolan was great but was not the greatest ever. Oh...and your holiness...please describe the physics to us. In detail. I can't wait.
I think he was extremely flexible.And don’t forget he wasn’t weight training or cross training.
"Hey, who's pitching today?"
"Walter Johnson."
"Arg, it's gonna be a boring game...but at least we'll win."
The greatest pitcher of all time by far. He later said in an interview that he pitched like that because it gave him more speed and was less taxing on his arm
He’s not the greatest pitcher of all time
@@robertcaffrey6532 He definitely is
@@crayon3726 he's no tho, he's debatable, there is no one great pitcher, that's hard to say
@@robertcaffrey6532 he easily is
@@josephperkins2740 he is the greatest pitcher of all time. The only gu/s i can think of that are even comparable are Koufax, Randy Johnson, Martinez, and Maddux
The Big Train also had 26 SuperWins. That's when you get a W and also drive in more runs than you give up. What a beast.
I'd love to see an all-time list for SuperWins. Google is no help.
that's an awesome factoid
You can get some insane movement with a sidearm delivery.
Yes!
@capacitance-rca1981 that's the most obscure media format I've ever seen as username.
Also a lot less stress on the elbow.
@capacitance-rca1981 a lot of no hitters, how many walks?
@@johnschunk97 Total of about 1360 walks over his career, or an average of two walks per nine innings. Led the AL in Ks twelve times.
There’s a high school in Bethesda, Maryland names after him. I know that because I went to that high school.
I went to Einstein in Kensingron
Same, class of 85
Was the school's team called Walter Johnson Freight Trains?
Ty Cobb said that Johnson was such a good guy that he hated hitting batters when he pitched. So Cobb would crowd up on the plate.
He preferred giving up a walk over hitting the batter
Damn Christian.
@@FarmersAreCool lol
I read that in Hank Thomas's biography of Johnson. Although Johnson and Cobb were good friends, they competed fiercely. Until about 1916, Johnson had an edge. Then Cobb noticed that Johnson pitched a little away from a batter, because, as you say, Johnson feared crippling or killing a batter. Cobb then began crowding the plate, swinging only at strikes over the outer half of the plate. Cobb's hitting improved against Johnson.
@@redskindan78 Great book, that was his Grandson's book! Although if memory served that was 1915. Way after he retired Johnson would pitch to his son-who could not understand how with that easy delivery, & being able to hit big strong college kids-he could not get around on the fastball. Then he began to realize how fasy he must have been in his prime.
imagine being so good that you literally go easy on your friends who just so happen to be some of the greatest hitters the game has ever seen.
Actually I think the Texas Rangers have the old Senators records since Washington was granted an expansion team named the Senators shortly after the first team moved to Minnesota.After about 12 years or so that Senators team moved to Texas. The current Nationals are a National league team descended from the Montreal Expos.
@@rrider3946 No the Twins still have that record, it's not like the NFL's Browns you know and that situation was complicated.
According to Sam Crawford, Walter liked his model bats. Sam graciously would give him one or two and Johnson, if a game wasn’t close, would ease up on a fastball that he could belt.
i read he never pitched inside because he feared injuring or even killing a batter if he hit him. Ty Cobb took advantage of that and didn't back up at all.
Today they would change his pitching and he would blow his arm in 3 years
They’d probably change something every year. New year, new philosophy....
If he was on the Red Sox or Athletics then he'd have the wins record and not Cy Young
Imagine what would have happened if he didn't play for the team that made "last in the American League" a thing.
Ju a reminder. George Washington was first in war and first in peace. Washington was last in the American League.
The Senators finished last only twice in the 21 seasons Johnson was pitching -- 1907 (Johnson's rookie season) and 1909. Washington won the American league title in '24 and '25 . Walter's greatness was keeping them out of the bottom of the standings for so long. A significant percentage of his losses were 3-2, and 2-1. Had he enjoyed playing for a better hitting club, he would have probably won 500+ games and maybe the pitcher of the year award would not have been named after Cy Young.
@@r.crompton2286 Exactly!
I got to watch '57 Washington Senators at Griffith Stadium, Harmon Killebrew and Camilo Pascual''s rookie seasons, Duke Snider's best with 42 home runs. What a treat for a 10 yr old!
@@philipclock It was. I am a year younger, and remember going to Opening Day at Griffith Stadium in 1954. Bitterly remember 1959, when the Nats had Sievers, Lemon, Killebrew, and Allison, "The Modern Murderer's Row", Pascual won 17 games with a 2.60 ERA, and the team broke the record for consecutive losses. Ah, but that made 2019 even sweeter.
The greatest pitcher in MLB history
Bartolo colón
I've thought he was the best ever for a long time. And I think Greg Maddux is number two. Just me....
@@cedricgist7614 I'd go with Satchel Paige.
@@Mike_LaFontaine75 - Perhaps, but we will never know because he never got a chance (...until much later in his career, still very good but well past his prime) to face up with the best of his contemporaries (...excepting perhaps, Josh Gibson). Yes, I know about his barnstorming games against Feller's Fellows - but that is not a full major league season (...although it certainly suggests that he would have at the very least been one of the best ever given a fair chance). Yep, we all got cheated on that one....
@@SlothKatz Many white contemporaries wrote about the greatness of SP, but you are correct, we can never know. I remember a couple decades ago when the 'experts' proclaimed a Japanese ballplayer couldn't compete in the majors because their leagues were at best AAA level. Enter Ishiro.
The greatest athlete from my high school, Fullerton Union High in Fullerton, Ca. He once struck out 27 batters in one extra inning game.
I'm no expert on this, but when I've watched film on him, I was struck by a couple of things:
1.) He had the nearly perfect physique for a pitcher. He wasn't overly tall (6'1") but his arms were extremely long and obviously very flexible. This allowed him a whip-like effect where the end of his arm would reach high velocity and impart that velocity to the ball, the same way the end of a whip can go momentarily supersonic (and create a crack, which is a mini sonic boom). I think that calling his delivery "whip-like" is more than just a metaphor.
2.) The ease with which he threw, coupled with his side-arm motion, must have been very deceptive even though he threw mostly fastballs. Hitters, especially right handers, would see the ball late and then have a hard time judging the velocity.
3.) I wonder if his side-arm delivery was a factor in why he was able to pitch so many innings in his 20-plus year career. It seems to me his type of delivery has to be less stressful on the shoulder than the extreme overhand taught these days. But this is only speculation of course; it might all be explained by his unique physical gifts.
Lou Mencken that side arm delivery looks to me like it may have been a way for him to hide the ball as it seems to be harder to pick up. It looks like it would be coming from his body as soon as he releases it, it's obscured by his uniform being right behind it, rather than being able to pick the ball up from release from his hand which would be away from his body either above or below the elbow.
Sidearm is much easier on the shoulder but it can be harder on the elbow. Walter tried. To pitch with 3/4 slot but it slow him down and made his shoulder sore. It was natural for him to pitch from sidearm. I pitch from the side arm position and I throw it faster and more control. Also easier on your back.
@@jeffreysmith5175 Interesting, but I read his Grandson's Biography & do not recall that he experimented with another delivery. Can you please site a source for that information?
The trainer for the Old Senators said that Johnson's motion would allow Johnson to pitch until he turned 50. Not a giant over-statement. Johnson retired after 1927. In that Spring Training a line-drive broke his leg. Johnson came back toward the end of the season, but did not have the leg strength he had had.
Walter Johnson was born in 1887. Six foot one, at that time was very tall.
MVP award was hella different back in the days. With that said, those who said Cy Young was the best pitcher because of his wins total needs to look at Walter Johnson, his era and strikeouts blows him out.
We tend to give strikeouts disproportionately more credit than other outs for some reason, as outs are outs regardless. But a case can be made for both being the best. 100 more victories isnt too shabby.
@@sandmanlogan5ran149 He also had more losses and higher era as well, that's pretty shabby to me. Only thing what Cy Young had over Johnson was innings pitched since even for dead ball era pitching advantages, pitchers still has to throw a lot of pitches to log in that many innings. However overall, he doesn't have a case over Walter Johnson as the best pitcher of their time.
The problem with your argument is that you seem to be devaluing victories, when really, what else matters? Young's winning % is higher, had the lowest WHIP 7 times to Johnsons 6, and their WAR is basically the same. Honestly, I cant pick between them. If you held a gun to my head, I might pick Koufax anyway , because for about 6 years he was as good as either of them and won 3 titles in that span.
@@sandmanlogan5ran149 WAR has their own context that often led to them getting overvalued or undervalued, I wouldn't use them as part of the argument if anything. Plus the problem with your argument is that you tried to overvalue win totals which are often the product of the quality of the team one would pitch for and when you look at the difference of their overall ERA and WHIP, it wasn't all that close. Your preference for Sandy Koufax is hardly relevant to the argument though had it been, I'd go with Pedro's peak due to the era he pitched in where he had his peak in the time when the offense were ridiculously juiced. Only knock against the guy was that even in his prime he tends to get dinged up, causing him to miss a start even if he doesn't land in a DL.
Koufax is relevant to the argument , because I think he was the best even over Johnson and Young.We live in a funny world where wins are now "overvalued".They are TODAY maybe, in the age of 5 inning starts and there are specialists pitching 7th and 8th and 9th innings,but you went all nine back then and 3 other guys didnt carry you to a win. I am not going to knock Young for pitching 2000+ more innings and then give Johnson credit for NOT pitching as many. Lets see Johnsons ERA with 7 more seasons worth of innings tacked on to his arm.Neither pitched during an offensive era, but Johnsons ERA started rising just as the Ruth era was beginning. The only all time record Johnson owns is career shutouts , which is great, But young has 76 himself which is also quite a bit..As far as team quality goes, the Cleveland Spiders were hardly a juggernaut in their day. Pedro may not even have been the best in his own era, as Randy Johnson was every bit as good and accomplished.
Walter Johnson's Locker in Cooperstown is the most vivid memory I have of visiting the HOF back in the late 80's. Johnson is Bruce Lee, a demigod, in a hall full of worthy but lesser mortals.
Jackie Chan and Chuck Norris just aren't on the same plane as WJ., His uniform which was made of some really hot, heavy wool was like Big Train, larger than life. Looking at his
never-to-be duplicated stats, and then seeing his personal stuff from his old Senators mini crib was quietly awe inspiring. If there ever a Superman played the game it was Johnson.
Greatest pitcher who ever lived.
"Hey" Ty Cobb spoke of two ways to hit against Johnson. 1st was to crowd the plate, Johnson didn't wan't to hurt anyone so if you crowded the plate he would ease up some. 2nd was to never actually swing at a Johnson fastball as you'll rarely hit it. So basically put your bat into the strike zone and if you made contact, the ball was coming in so fast you were at least guaranteed a single if you didn't foul it off. In many recollections, there was mention of the distinctive sound the ball made as it headed towards the plate. One time Babe Ruth was struck out on a called third strike and turned to the Umpire and asked "You sure? The Umpire replied "Yes, it was right in there" As Ruth began walking away he muttered "I thought it sounded a bit low"
Thats awsome. I mean, he did get tested at 99.7 mph in 1914. Something the idiot making the video failed to mention
Considering how long he pitched, how many pitches he threw, his lack of arm injuries, and his incredible success, maybe he knew what he was doing, and maybe today's coaches are just wrong?
Babe Ruth ended that. Christy Matthewson said he didn't pitch as hard when he wasn't in a jam, but when batters started hitting home runs a lot of pitchers that kept doing that got shelled.
@@daviddechamplain5718 well Christy was never known for his fastball. He had a nasty screwball though
@@tjjanosko133 You are correct. Mathewson was a legendary control pitcher even in his time.
@@jpjpjp453 he truly revolutionized the screwball. But he had a good fastball as well. He was once tested at 90.6 mph in 1917. That was after he retired. I have no doubt he could hum it close to 95 in his prime
It is too bad we don't have more film on some of these old players. It might be interesting to see how many of these guys survived as they did. e.g. How could Joe "Iron Man" McGinnity pitch 434 innings and win 31 games one year and then pitch 408 innings the next year and go 35-8 with a 1.61 ERA and a WHIP of 0.963 in the next year? He often pitched both sides of a double-header and won both games. They called him "iron man" because he worked in his father-in-law's steel mill in the offseason, not because he was such a tough guy.
“Hey”
The guy was just a freak of nature. His delivery made a lot of sense for his time, given that pitching staffs were very small and pitchers threw to contact to limit the strain on their arms. But they weren’t supposed to be able to throw un-hittable pitches. Lol. He got the best of both worlds: little strain, big time cheese.
Thanks for this video and the additional footage of Johnson's motion - including the "MLB the Show" portrayal. Bill James wondered back in 1987 why sidearm and submarine deliveries faded out. I'd never seen footage of Walter Johnson's until about two years ago and it struck me. Motion looks so easy, unstrained. Natural for the greatest pitcher of all time.
Thanks again. Washington did have something to cheer about before last year's Series win.
Because coaches are idiot sheep. They only do what everyone else is doing. Babe Ruth also pitched sidearm, by the way.
I'd look at his pitching motion again...it seemed to work for him
You said he did not use his legs and hips but when you watch his motion you can see he does lead with his hips and legs. His motion is just more compact than many of today's pitchers. He had to be a extra strong man to throw with that compact motion. Jimmie Foxx the great HR hitter had a very compact swing and he hit 534 homers. I just figured he had to be as strong as a bull to hit that many.
Walter Johnson might be the best pitcher of all time
Too bad Satchel Paige didn't get to play MLB in his prime.
@capacitance-rca1981 ryan leads all time in walks. Lead the league in losses more times than he lead the league wins (he never lead the league in wins) and he never won a cy young. I'll take Johnson over him any day
capacitance-rca1981 Nolan Ryan isn’t even a top 10 all time pitcher.
@@Mike_LaFontaine75 babe ruth , jimmy foxx, roger hornsby wouldve ❤️ / love to face/ hit against young pitcher satchal paige in his prime
@@lloydkline1518 Josh Gibson would have loved to face Walter Johnson in his prime.
Im honored to be at nats fan bc of Walter
He pitched for the Senators who would becomes the Twins though.
iamhungey12345 Yeah for real. Do the Nats actually take credit for Walter Johnson? That’s like the Mets honoring Jackie Robinson with the main entrance to their stadium (it’s called the Jackie Robinson rotunda).
Same
@@grega490 He has a statue outside Nats Park.
As a Nats AND Twins fan, I am ok with this.
This man deserves way more than 50k subs
need one on lefty grove. That's always been the question. How would the players of old stack up against modern. His mechanics was purposeful, to throw all game, they had to.
greatest pitcher of all time, and looks like Robin William's twin
Most of the film of WJ throwing is him warming up. The few videos we have of him in a game have him using his hips, body turn, and a long, loose efficient throwing action with a whip-like follow through. I'd compare his motion favorably to Randy Johnson, and note that while WJ was only 6', he had very long arms for his height. According to the players that played during that era, the fastest pitchers up through the 1930's were Walter Johnson and Smokey Joe Wood. Many of the same players who faced them, say they compared their fast balls to that of Bob Feller, who, by modern speed gun standards, had a fast ball well in excess of 100mph.
Very good! Except Johnson was 6' 1", & virtually everyone *including* feller said Johnson was faster than Feller.
Walter Johnson sounds like the real-life Sidd Finch.
You know, you talk about how Johnson’s delivery doesn’t make sense, but he had plenty of clearance from his body, and threw with a minimum of effort. He created enough whip action with his upper body instead of his legs, which is super human. It also was a simple, repeatable windup. Something all pitching coaches teach. Only difference is his follow through, he basically used his front leg as a tool for balance instead of guidance, I.e., the ball goes where your front foot ends up. His abbreviated motion probably helped conserve energy, because the only things working were his arm and hips. The modern day comparison is Strasburg. Since he’s switched to throwing from the stretch 100% of the time, his command has improved drastically. It’s very similar to Johnson’s windup, it’s a quarter turn with the hips so you don’t lose the target. He’s basically just throwing the ball, too. Although his velocity went down to 94, he’s shortened and simplified his windup. Maybe you could do a comparison video using those two guys, since they’re similar in stature. Watching old film, trying to see how fast guys through is pretty interesting for comparison. There’s extended Koufax footage in the ‘65 World Series, and just by sight he looks pretty close to 100 mph at times.Mickey Lolich and Gibson in ‘68 series. There’s footage of Jim Palmer in the ‘69 series where he and Gary Gentry look like they’re in the mid/high 90’s. Then Ryan comes in the game and throws 100. But really, if you’re talking about pure FEAR, Walter Johnson with a little extra mustard on it coming in SIDEARM at 100 mph, you’re looking at the man that wrote the book on power pitching. Period. In any era. Nice video despite the obnoxious delivery.
Well the average talent was just fhe same. Think about it. There is double the teams now which means the average talent is deluded witb players who would not be good enough to crack a roster on the 16 teams they had back then. And they did work out. Many worked on a farm hauling cattle, many ran, did calisthenics, cross-country hunted witn ankle weights that made their legs stronger, they also chopped down trees in the winter, and played in barnstorming games. And they walked EVERYWHERE. Cars were lacking back then so all they did was walk. Look at pictures from the public back then, how many fat people do you see? Very few. And yes theybhad 2nd jobs but those hubs were typically working in mines, and mills which as far as I'm concerned, working in mines and mills for 8 hours a day is just as good as any modern workout
Please do one on Bobby Richardson winning the MVP when the Yankees lost the WS
David Levison isn’t he the only player to get mvp on the losing team in a World Series?
Phrog yes I’m pretty sure
Phrog yep to my proud buccos of 1960
@@jakeob5884 Those Yankees wins were lopsided to the max, those Pirate victories were squeakers. Overall the Yankees scored something like double the runs the Pirates did, and Casey Stengel got fired in the offseason, the front office blaming him for choosing inexplicable starting pitchers when Whitey Ford could have taken the mound.
Remember his statue at old Griffith Stadium in the late fifties.There were even old fans at the park who remember the BigTrain.Taking
a DC transit streetcar as a young teenager to the park was fun.After the 1960 season that sob Calvin Griffith, adopted son of beloved Clark who was dead
The most underrated aspect of Walter Johnson is that he only had one pitch, his fastball. One historian was quoted saying, "Walter Johnson's idea of a changeup was just to throw the ball harder." Ty Cobb stated that Johnson would have never given up a hit if he learned how to throw a curveball
Johnson threw a curve. He called it "the wrinkle", and used it in extra innings in the 1924 World Series to get a Giant to swing out of his shoes and strike out.
Grayle, Walter had 5 pitches.
He didn't have a breaking ball when he got to the big leagues in 1907, but developed a good one later in his career. Having had the opportunity to know his daughter and grandson quite well, as well as Washington Post sportswriter Shirley Povich (who started covering the Senators in 1924 and was close with Walter), he was not only a great ballplayer, but a remarkably fine human being.
Literally none of what you said is true, and a change up is a slower pitch, so it makes zero sense to say that if he wanted to throw a change up they'd throw it faster.
Did ANYONE in these comments play baseball!?!?
Johnson's pitching style was extremely deceptive which was made it so dangerous. He says that Johnson just seems to fling the ball but if you look closely, you can see that he actually engages his hips every time he throwa. He's using good mechanics but because he made it look sloppy and half speed the batter would just naturally be caught off guard when the ball came flying in
All pitch tests 1939 and earlier
1914- Walter Johnson- 99.7 mph
1939- Atley Donald- 99.3 mph
1939- Dee Miles- 96.7 mph
1917- Walter Johnson- 95.4 mph
1912- Walter Johnson- 93.8 mph
1939- Steve Sundra- 93.3 mph
1939- Wally Moses- 93.3 mph
1912- Walter Johnson- 93.1 mph
1912- Walter Johnson- 92.4 mph
1917- Christy Mathewson- 90.6 mph
1939- Johnny Humphries- 90.6 mph
1917- Smoky Joe Wood- 88.5 mph
1912- Nap Rucker- 87.6 mph
1939- Jim Tabor- 87.2 mph
1939- Roger Cramer- 87.2 mph
1933- Van Mungo- 86 mph
1939- Bob Feller- 85.1 mph
1912- Nap Rucker- 84.9 mph
1933- Lefty Gomez- 84.7 mph
1912- Nap Rucker- 82.8 mph
That shows how I’m accurate it is
@@nohaerrr ?
I only read about the single speed test in his Grandson's book, in 1917. Can you please produce a link showing other ones for Johnson? Also, it is important to know were they both using the same technique & in the same way: same distance, with a mound, after warm ups...Some of these tests must be wrong. Feller had the 98.6 at the PLATE, losing ~ 9 mph, in 1946. No way in 1939-he was marginally faster before the war-he was waaay slower.
6:18 and also rookies and young players! Basically the opposite of what Ty Cobb would do in his position! Suddenly his only having 1 no-hitter makes sense knowing this.
Ed Walsh literally pitched 33% of all innings pitched by all White Sox pitchers in 1908. 49 starts plus 17 relief appearances. Unreal.
Petition to have the Cy Young Award changed to the Walter Johnson Award
To be fair, Cy Young's name has a better ring to it even though Walter Johnson was the better pitcher of their time.
Different awards for each league
His motion was actually part of his appeal - He threw 100 MPH while barely looking like he's moving at all... When you see that motion, it looks like he's tossing, and it takes a second to catch up to the difference between the speed of the pitch and the speed of his motion, and by then you're too late.
That's what Ty Cobb said. He said that Walter Johnson windup looked nice and easy then all the sudden the ball was past you.
@capacitance-rca1981 I say this with all due respect to the great Nolan Ryan, but he's not even in my top-10. Top-15, maybe. I loved watching the guy, so this is not an insult, but he allowed a lot of walks and could be a bit inconsistent.
@capacitance-rca1981 Nolan was a great pitcher. And was in my opinion the hardest thrower there was. It was amazing that Nolan threw an average of 98 through the whole game. He also did not play on good teams but he walked at least 6 or 9 batters a game. Then you look at Walter Johnson he played on bad teams too. But Walter control the plate better than Nolan did. But either way both pitchers were fantastic. Oh another thing Walter Johnson could hit.
When I was in Minneapolis watching the Twins play when I was young, I remember talking to an old-timer who had seen Walter Johnson pitch when he was young (the Twins were once the Washington Senators). He claimed that Walter Johnson in his prime threw harder than Feller, Ryan, Duren, or anyone else. The sad part is that the only film we have of Walter pitching was at the very end of his career. Even then, filming was done by a camera operator winding a crank to expose the film in the camera. Therefore, every movement was subject to the tendencies of the camera operator. Projecting just how fast someone threw from that old film was next to impossible. I believe Ty Cobb, I think still the best hitter in baseball history, when he said, "You can't hit what you can't see!"
From what I could see with the film, such as it was, was that it wasn't just his fastball that threw hitters, it was how that fastball moved in the strike zone. With Walter Johnson, his fastball started at one point in the strike zone and then went down, almost like a slider. Even a fastball pitcher throwing 100 mph is no match for an MLB hitter unless it has some movement on it. That's why Kerry Wood struck out 20 guys in a game against a good Houston Astros team. His fastball that day moved in ways the hitters could not project. That's why many hitters stuck out against Walter and when they did get a hit, the ball wound up in someone's glove for an out.
7 foot wing span. Release the ball and it look like it was coming at your head. Scary. But very fast.
Well you heard it from someone who actually saw Walter pitch. I think that would be pretty good evidence don't you think
Someone else said here his fastball appeared to rise. I read his Grandson's autobiography-no mention of it sinking. Do you have any sources for this? He had great movement, but the sinking motion belief could be a mistake.
@@SilverSkitterscuttle The law of gravity suggests that all objects must eventually come down to earth. The idea of the fastball rising makes sense when you consider how he threw the ball in the first place. It would depend upon how the ball came off his hand. I cannot believe he didn't have a "cutter" in his arsenal of fastballs. You don't win 36 games in a season and pitch over 300 innings in a season without having a few modifications to your fastball. Back in those days, you and your opponents had long train rides and used that time to dissect their opponents. To keep ahead of that, you had to come up with modifications to your pitches.
@@tommack352 Sure if he threw it slightly underhanded, but he threw it a little higher than strictly sidearm. Read the book by his Grandson "Baseball's Big Train" & any other source-his only other good pitch was an occasional changeup. I once read he liked to throw the curve with 2 strikes...But normally it was not very good. The exception-according to the book-was in one game in the world series, 1924-then as the shadows lengthened he threw more blazing heat.
His locker set up at Cooperstown was the most impressive thing in the entire Hall for me."Big Train" would be just another big man today but back then he was a giant.
He'd be a star today as well.
The mlb the show footage😂
A big editing help considering Mr. Johnson retired nearly 100 years ago
@@StarkRavingSports it got his windup down to a tee.
You forgot something. There wasn't much team behind him throughout his career. The Senators were perennial losers. I read that Glory of Their Times as a kid (AWESOME book btw for true baseball historical types) and someplace in it somebody made the comment to hit Walter Johnson was like trying to eat soup with a fork.
So what you're saying is, in 1912 Walter Johnson pitched the greatest season ever, and then he did it again in 1913?
@Eric Wellman not as good. But he was another guy who threw smoke
99 or 00 Pedro Martinez is right up there
@Eric Wellman thats pretty cool
@Alex I was referencing Foolish Baseball's video on Pedro with that title.
@@MetFanMac it went right over my head lol
Vin Scully loved talking about Walter “Barney” Johnson. Thanks for reminding me.
He also has the most oWAR of any pitcher Al time
In childhood my life's ambition was to be a pitcher for the Tigers. I consumed every base ball book I could lay hands on, and threw with Walter Johnson's low side arm. The spin from it built in a natural slider but I could not control it. Can't everyone do it! To have a chance at throwing strikes, I changed to pitching like everybody else.
Arguably the greatest pitcher ever.
No
@@robertcaffrey6532 yes. How many times I gotta tell you. He is
TJ Janosko he pitched during a time where spit balls were allowed and the mound was taller, pretty much every rule favored pitchers and the ballparks were massive. If you use ERA- which adjusts for park factors and the time period he’s 3rd behind kershaw and pedro, and he’s 16th in FIP-. There’s no way a guy who pitched in the most pitcher-friendly time period is the greatest of all time. Meanwhile, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson put up similar stats during the steroid era.
@@robertcaffrey6532 most friendly? He faced over 20 hall of fame batters in his career, which by the way carried into the lively ball era. And just because he played in the dead ball era doesnt mean it was hitter friendly. He faced contact hitters. In an era with not alot of strikeouts, which makes his strikeout totals even more impressive. On top of that he played for a shit washington senators team. He accounted for 40% of their wins in 1912. He has a career winning percentage of .599. If he played for the red sox pr NY Giants at the time he would have a winning percentage up near .700
@@robertcaffrey6532 after comparing there careers on a more fair level. I conpared Martinez's entire career to Johnson's first 9 years. Since thats where they had similar innings pitched totals. Martinez had more wins (219 to 206) Martinez had less losses (100 to 128) Martinez had a better W-L% (.687 to .617) Johnson had a better ERA (1.61 to 2.93) Johnson had more shutouts (60 to 17) Johnson gave up less hits (2131 to 2221) Johnson gave up less runs (749 to 1006) Johnson gave up less earned runs (497 to 919) Johnson gave up less home runs (26 to 239) Johnson gave up less walks (547 to 760) Martinez had more strikeouts (3154 to 1889) Johnson had a better ERA+ (176 to 154) Johnson had a better FIP (1.93 to 2.91) Johnson had a better WHIP (0.964 to 1.054) Johnson had a better H9 (6.9 to 7.1) Johnson had a better HR9 (0.1 to 0.8) Johnson had a better BB9 (1.8 to 2.4) and Martinez had a better SO9 (10 to 6.1) Johnson beat Martinez in 13 of the 18 statistical categories here
2:45: I feel his 1913 season was the GOAT for a pitcher. In addition to the stats you posted, he started 36 games, of which 29 were complete games ( and in those days sometimes complete were more than nine innings as managers rarely relieved their starters even in extra innings if the game was tied or close). He had 11 shutouts in those 36 starts.
Did you turn into Philip Defranco in the beginning?
The dude is trying way too hard to be funny.
Throwing side-arm like that, the fastball breaks in on a right-handed batter. Can't be fun.
(hey)
I personally spoke to Bob Feller back in 2009. He told me that nobody threw harder than Walter Johnson. He said that Walter Johnson threw 108-109mph throughout a game. That isn't even his maximum speed. However, Feller did tell me that Johnson did not have the greatest change up. This guy in the video is wrong about the velocity. It's been proving on average to be the same back then, as it is today. Different pitches are thrown today, as back then.
I go to a high school named after him
in Houston?
Really, that school must be really old
His pitching is so different compared to today's strikeout heavy, 3 true outcomes plate strategy for both hitters and pitchers. He had a lot of strikeout for sure, though considering his innings load, his strike out rate is actually considerably lower than modern power pitchers, generally only around 5 or 6 per 9 innings. Not much by today's standards. So batters put a lot of balls in play against him. But he rarely issued walks and his batting average for balls in play was consistently and incredibly low. No one could get solid contact on him. Perhaps it was his weird motion. He also managed to strand an unusually large percentage of runners. Even though he is considered a power pitcher (and was for the time) he was really as much a crafty game manager. Either way, he did it better than anyone.
Very good, but I would add that nobody could have the nearly same K totals, since all hitters were going for contact not homers for the vast majority of his innings pitched. Also: there is a huge chance that he was very fast or the fastest in the majors of any & all times. Because this unlike say strength training (& taking PEDs) is a natural skill that cannot be improved that much. Look up Steve Dalkowski-everyone who saw him pitch, including many major league players & managers-said he was the fastest of all time.
All aboard the Trump AND Johnson Train!
This guy might be not only the best pitcher of all-time but the best player. He hit 24 career HRs playing 75% of his prime in the deadball era. He had 41 career 3Bs which is more than ARod & Pujols career totals. He fielded 1.000% 5 seasons and 3x while pitching more than 300 Innings, of course, using tiny gloves. His fastball was measured in a very dubious method in 1917 after he had pitched an average of 350 INNs the previous 7 seasons. That was not his ultimate fastball which compared well to any in the history of the game. Pro baseball began 150 years ago. There is very little new in the last 50 years or so. This is not brain surgery but a boy's game. Getting back to his incomparable pitching career, he won 20 games 5 times for a losing team. No other pitcher did that more than twice since 1900 and he won 38 1-0 games of which that number is more than the career total of SHOs by at least 37 HOF pitchers (of course, incl. relievers). BTW, 9 relievers in the HOF is utterly ridiculous. Thinking a pitcher who throws 70 innings a season is equal to one who throws 270 is absurd. The vast majority of closers save the vast majority of their games because the odds are strongly with them to not allow runs in one inning let alone facing 1 or 2 batters and the odds also say a 3rd of the time they are facing the bottom of the batting order. "The Big Train" might also be the greatest nickname in sports history.
the REVERSE wind-up is very important. It stretches the arm muscles in the opposite position than the pitching motion - enabling them to snap forward with greater force, You can see Muhammid Ali swinging his right arm in reverse before the bell against Ken Norton because he was depending on his right hand punch for vitory. This is the secret for being able to pitch so many innings.
And he had to wait til he was 36 before he got rewarded with a Pennant.
Ty Cobb's description said all you need to know about Walter Johnson's speed. It "hissed with danger." A guy throwing 91 mph doesn't have a noisy fastball. It takes elite speed to create a pitch that a hitter can hear.
Your arm gets stronger the more often you throw. Something the modern game has gotten away from. It will be sore at first but it heals quicker if you do it on a regular basis. That was how those old timers used to pitch 40+ games a year. If you take 5 days rest then that is what your body will get used to.
I totally agree. It's something how generations change. When I was a kid (back in the 70's) listening to games on the radio with my grandfather, he would lament that relievers were ruining baseball. This was when guys like Quisenberry, Fingers, Hrabosky, Sutter, and of course, Gossage were making their bones. As a kid, I of course took the "okay, Boomer" type attitude towards whet he was talking about, but he turned out to be right. Now you have starters who are being brought up with the "five and dive" mentality. The thing that really gets me is that we now know so much more about training, nutrition, even sleep, and the surgical procedures have improved by leaps and bounds. Today's pitchers (hell, any athletes) should be DESTROYING these types of records, but instead, we watch stuff like this and shake our heads.
@@Nhamp2000 Right and im not saying throw it as hard as you can on every pitch and destroy your arm. Because that will happen if that's what you try to do. I feel like that's kind of what modern pitchers have evolved into. They've become specialists who are taught to try and throw 100 mph on every pitch. Unfortunately that prematurely destroys their arm. They just need to pitch naturally and comfortably. It shouldn't hurt to pitch. And when you throw often like every 2 or 3 days your arm will be strong. You're building endurance. It shouldn't get sore unless you do something stupid like throwing as hard as you can too much. It may get tired which is what will happen but it wont get sore. Building endurance is why those old timers could pitch 50 complete games a year.
The all-time great modern pitcher who was the most like Walter (Big Train) Johnson was another Johnson. Randy (Big Unit) Johnson. Randy Johnson had a similar motion to Walter Johnson in that he kind of slung the ball up to home plate instead of pitching or throwing it. Because of that neither of the Johnsons had a serious arm injury in their long careers. Also each of the Johnsons played on one World Series championship team. Walter Johnson with the 1924 Washington Senators and Randy Johnson with the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks. Randy Johnson won 303 games and struck out 4875 batters in his career.
I think Walter Johnson had the most beautiful, least arm taxing throwing motion I've ever seen!!!
yeah but you need to tax your arm to be a good pitcher now. this windup would have no chance nowadays
@@colenazor2034 they would still allow his windup today
@@tjjanosko133 you don't understand what i said. i mean you need to put all of your body and all of you arm into your windup to be an effective pitcher because you need to use everything to throw 90+ mph. this windup would be useless because not only can 99/100 people not reach 90s with it but your curveball wouldn't move since you can't snap it from that angle.
6:07: Here is a story I read somewhere attributed to Babe Ruth:
Johnson struck Babe Ruth out on three straight fastballs. After the third strike Babe asked the umpire, "Did you see any of those pitches?"
"No," said the ump.
"Neither did I," said Babe, "but that last one sounded a little low."
I mean we didn’t start measuring the speed of pitches coming out of the hand until fairly recently even during Nolan Ryan’s era they tended to measure it at the plate which loses a few miles per hour so he could have been throwing 98 or 99 and given how the military was certainly measuring it as well as the fact he was well past his prime, I think he might be throwing harder than we think.
I have a computer baseball game I play and I have the pitching award named the Walter Johnson Award because I think he blows Cy Young out of the water in dominance. I also imported him as a player into a modern fictional league under the name of Johnny Walters along with Alex Peterson (Pete Alexander), Theo Williams, and Matt Christy (Christy Mathewson) just for kicks.
It is funny that people today dismiss and disbelieve what those who were actually there and experienced it say. Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Babe Ruth, and Dizzy Dean seem to have used almost identical pitching motions, and to great success. Others surely did as well. All people are made different, and it surprises me that people and coaches try keeping young pitchers from even trying to use the pitching motion of the two winningest pitchers in baseball history. But then again, in 1974 when Tommy John surgery was first invented, several teams still used the 4 man pitching rotation and the 24 teams AVERAGED 42 complete games apiece, and Mike Marshall pitched in 106 games and worked 162 relief innings, and in both 1971 and 1972 both Wilbur Wood and Mickey Lolich worked over 350 innings. With all our advances in training methods and medicine, as well as financial rewards for players, one would think we would be progressing, and every team would have a couple guys tossing 15 complete games and 300 innings with a star reliever working 120 innings and winning at least 8 games per year. No wonder the older pitchers quietly mock today's pitchers who are paid for the quality of each inning, rather than what they did for their team over the season or seasons. Who's more valuable to a team, a guy who works 180 innings, goes 10-9 with 220 strikeouts,. 0 complete games, or a guy who works 280 innings, goes 19-11, strikes out only 95, with 17 complete games where relief pitchers weren't necessary and could be saved for other less talented starters? Sabermetrics made a mistake in not calculating the importance of innings, complete games, and victories. Count how many times a pitcher won 25+ games from 1960-1980.(17?) Then notice 25 victories has only been done ONCE since. Then count the 20- and 15- game winners 1960-1980. Now count those of 2000-2020. Baseball has been regressing for a long time, because pitchers are no longer even competitive with those of yesterday.
They no longer win MVPs. They obviously do not have the respect. But hey, with their better training methods and medicine, they can have their high strikeouts and long careers. And keep sidearm pitchers out of the game. And only let girls play softball so there are more Dottie Millers who compiled a career record of 6 wins and 10 losses against all male opponents. I know that's not a great record. But how many major league games have you won? Given the chance, some real girl might surpass her one day
And WJ pitched all 21 years for the Washington Senators, which was a lousy team for most of those 21 years.
Remember Rube Marquet, and Smoky Joe Wood in 1912, what a season with Walter Johnson. Also the modern baseball called the jackrabbit was introduced in December 1920, this was the end of the old tobacco pouch ball.
The difference was they kept introducing new balls after Carl May was killed, so it did not get soft. The construction had changed in 1911: but nobody was seeking home runs due to the old dead ball & larger stadiums. Ruth came in & changed that with his massive uppercut. But in1911 they put in the cork center. And offense increased that year! Ruth just exploited an untapped potential brilliantly.
@@SilverSkitterscuttle according to all of my old newspapers and magazines from 1890 thru 2021, the dead ball era was finished on December 12 1919. Prior to that it was common to see a bases full in field home run. Back then it was a game of true strategy bunt, hit, off hit...until this kid a left paw pitcher came to the Yankees. McGraw had used the old method of playing baseball, hit there, bunt, get a man on base and try to get 1 home. George hit the ball out of the park...600yds on the fly, it stopped 6 blocks from the ball park. Well old McGraw handed the kid a stern word, a fine...and the Babe was born.
This is the kind of video that is going to propel me down a youtube rabbit hole. Tomorrow I may be a Walter Johnson expert
They didn't mess with his fluid throwing motion and look what happened. Perhaps a lesson to take away
Jack Morris was once asked How come your ERA is high but you win so many games?" He explained that he pitched to the situation. If his team was up 5-0 he would let up on his velocity and save his best pitches for later in the game. So, if the game was then 5-3 in the 8th inning he would go back to his better and pitches. This made his ERA over 3 but he would win and pitch a CG or close to it. That is how every MLB pitcher pitched prior to 1990. Since 1990 it has been a snowball affect that pitchers are now THROWERS not pitchers.
Johnson led the Senators to their only World Series title while the team was in Washington in 1924 (The Big Train won the seventh and final game of that series which went 12 innings). The Senators returned to the World Series in 1925 but did not win. It would be another 95 years before a Washington-based baseball team would win a World Series when the Nationals won in 2019.
I love the idea of him tossing up a meatball for one of his boys and just laughing when they hit it a mile
Didn't that one sound a little high!
That's what I always heard that Ty Cobb told that umpire when he asked him are you sure it was right down the middle, it sound like it was high to me...
What's your all time top 5 mlb rotation? Mine 1.Christy Mathewson 2.Walter Johnson 3. Eddie Plank 4. Mordecai Brown 5. Grover Alexander
It's a testament alright, however most mechanics make absolute sense. Heck I'm a sidearm pitcher, but my mechanics are a little sluggish. However there is a good chance that a coach could allow some mechanics to be shown like that. Even I do that which a lot of people would have trouble seeing because it's not new but would often ask me of I throw higher. No I don't, I naturally pitch sidearm has it's conforming for me.
Very interesting throwing motion, but it's not unbelievable to me that it could succeed with the right elements. With those very long arms, I imagine he used his right arm much like a whip. I would also think that he got crazy movement on his sinker and slide piece. Thanks for a very cool video.
Ruth batted against him and the ump called a strike, Ruth said I don't know it sounded high to me
Ruth didn't see the pitch. But heard it. Now that's fast
Walter Johnson WAS ridiculous......Christy Mathewson was almost as ridiculous too. The two top pitchers of the old era.
Three Finger Brown deserves to be mentioned in the same breath.
BTW- He’s an hometown hero here in Brea, CA!!!
Also the dust bowl exhibition game with Babe Ruth in Brea on 10/1/24; the banner hangs in the HOF.
I’m soooo proud to live in Brea & hopefully we’ll see another baseball legend to come out of here!
Huh? Johnson was from Humboldt Kansas, although he played in Idaho/the Pacific league. What am I missing? And please tell me about that game!
@@SilverSkitterscuttle His family move to Brea, CA in 1902 Walter was 11yrs old and went to school in Fullerton... Walter put together a exhibition game on in Brea, CA on October 31, 1924 with Babe Ruth, and the banner of that game resides in the Baseball hall of fame. You can google it, and have pictures of that game. The barm-like building in the background is still standing & is a community tire center.
Walter has said that Brea-Olinda was his hometown, and will always love it!!
@@todddenny1483 Now I recall the move, thank you for the information Todd! Imagine seeing that game, & the year the nation was rooting for The Big Train to lead his team to a World Championship! After he accomplished that...
What makes Johnson's accomplishments even more amazing is that he basically had one pitch. His off-speed stuff was nothing to write home about. Johnson's depended upon excellent control and movement with his side-arm fastball to get batters out.
Today's bigger , stronger (genetically engineered) humans may be throwing faster etc but , they sure don't seem to be as durable.
J is for Johnson
The Big Train in his prime
Was so fast he could throw
Three strikes at a time.
I provided some research assistance to Henry Thomas' terrific bio of Johnson, who was his grandfather. I spent some quality time with his mom Carolyn, Walter's daughter, and they seemed to think his sidearm motion put less strain on his elbow and shoulder. I certainly agree that pitchers during his era didn't throw as hard as they do now. I sat with the great Shirley Povich of the Washington Post, who knew Walter quite well, and he talked about Walter coming down to the field in his street clothes and dress shoes in his late 40's and throwing harder than the much younger Washington pitchers on the staff. Johnson also had planned a comeback when he managed the club in the 1929-32 period when he was short a couple of arms. He abandoned those plans when his wife Hazel died unexpectedly. The greatest RHP of all time? No doubt.
2:20 . . . . wait . . . did you say he was "33 TO 12?" I've been watching baseball for around 40 years and I have never heard a pitchers record given with the word "TO" He went "33 AND 12" that year. Also . . . the ERA was one point three nine - NOT - one point thirty nine. . . . . . Do you refer to a batting average as "point three hundred?"