How Flight Numbers Create Expectations
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- What have you thrown that didn't meet expectations? Let us know in the comments!
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I used to heavily lean on the lucid escape. It finally got too beat in, and I replaced it with a supreme escape. My expectation was not that the supreme escape would be flippier than a 10 year old on a trampoline
You may not sell many Royal Glory's, but it is exactly what I thought it would be when I bought it, and it does exactly what I want when I throw it. Big fan.
100% agree. The glory made my bag immediately. It flies like a more stable Teebird.
I like it, too. I just find it to be somewhat inconsistent. since its only a 7 speed, it's easy to overpower on accident, and the hook you are after might not be there. I guess that can be said about all discs really. It was competing with the athena in my bag and lost its spot unfortunately
@@EntaiIIe up here in Denver, I have never had either of mine flip on me. They always finish left.
@@EntaiIIe your Athena is more stable than a glory? Interesting. Is your glory in orbit plastic?
@@curtisridenour this always differs person to person and disc to disc and a ton of other factors. my glory is in the grand royal plastic. if its juiced, it goes straight, if I throw at 50-75%, it hooks nicely. my athena is just reliably always overstable. its more of a gradual hook over time, which gets me more of the shot shapes I need, and its less finicky about how hard I throw it. I am always unsure with my glory if I am throwing it at the right power for the shape I want.
I really like how Prodigy updated their flight numbers and how much better they match expectations.
You should do a video on that.
I have come to expect that in negligible wind, a driver with -1 turn on flat release will fly straight until the fade, where as a driver with -2 turn will have that s-shaped flight.
this would be ideal!
Agreed. Additionally, for me, as you move higher in speed you can expect more stability for the same "Turn" number
That sped up explainer got me 🤣
This is one of the reasons I really like MVP's flight diagrams for each disc; they show how it's expected to fly at 7 different arm speeds. Of course, it's still not perfect as different plastics will vary a bit, but it's the best I've seen. Much more useful than flight numbers.
The Cookie is the epitome of 7 5 0 2
You spelled Teebird wrong.
Clash's numbers are near perfect, not only in relation to the rest of their lineup but in terms of expectation.
When I want a new disc that has a certain flight path, I come watch a few of your videos and pick one that way. That's how I got my Fission Maverick, which is now one of my favorite discs and flies exactly like I thought it would. Thanks for all you do.
Thank you for making these videos. They are some of my favorites!
The -1/2 was spot on but I thought the -2/1 throw you showed turned more than I would expect out of a -2. Would have said that’s a -3/1.
@JTygerAU I agree.
Very well done video once again
Interestingly the one mold that matches it's numbers is from this very same line, the Grace. Has just a touch of turn and mellow fade
Elevation Koi, but that's on me, I focused on getting a rubbery, floppy putter that would crash and die instead of rolling away from the basket. It has -2 turn and that really messes me up for the longer puts. It does have its utility though so it's still in my bag, but I never put with it anymore. I bought Depth Charge from Doomsday Discs for the same reason and while it flies reliably straight, this thing is basically a tyre and it will bonk the basket and roll out of circle 2 at the slightest incline.
My bag is a hot mess of neutral Zones, overstable Wraiths, and 10 year old putters. In many ways, it's what makes disc golf fun. Buying and learning your discs. It's also the reason why this channel exists. I think manufacturers realize this and they're in on the "guessing game".
Pathfinder perfectly met expectations for me. Specifically in ethereal plastic fwiw. The Svea in K1 Soft did NOT meet expectations. Probably something to do with the soft plastic (so soft I can fold it in half with no damage done to the disc) but this is the most understable disc I have ever thrown in my life. RHBH and it will immediately flip over and go to the right, even thrown softly. Its a suuuuuper utility disc in my bag because nothing else makes the shapes I can make with the Svea. I was told it would be a reliable straight midrange, "its a fuse in better plastic and holds lines perfectly!"
I love my Lat64 Glory. After throwing it for a week, i went back to the shop to buy a backup because i loved it so much.
For the most part I throw the disc on hyzer angle, so expect a -1/2 to flip to flat, push straight a bit, then fade. Maybe a bit of turn.
Expectations! The first tee I threw the Brave from, I expected it to have a slight turn and fade back to the basket....BUT, it totally turned the whole way...straight into a briar patch, where it lived for over a month. Now, it's my backhand turnover disc.
Great video!
I've had a brave in my bag for a long time and I legit thought it was -2/1. With those numbers in my mind it flies exactly as I expected when I bought it.
The Brave flies just like its flight numbers for me. I do have a bit of a slow arm speed as a grace or strive won’t turn for me. My max distance on these three discs all are around the 90-100 meter for me.
same boat over here, was shocked to see it turn so much in the video
My experience with Brave is the same as the video and I have only 300ft of power. Much more turn than I thought. Love it, but not for its flight numbers. FWIW mine is also purple
Mine is orange, don’t know the weight, I have to check
I have the prototype btw
I was very surprised when I threw the Brave for the first time, super understable, but not dumping to the right, just glides forever. Now that I know what to expect, it's without competition my absolute favourite disc. Hyzer flip it and it goes forever. Turn over magic when you need it. Its amazing.
I feel like the brave would fly the way it says for me! Im about a 7 speed arm and think it would fit perfect for some shape shot id be looking for. Sadly local shop haven't had it available for me yet.
Some select molds in Lat64 lineup are off by a similar degree. My Bolt thrown on mild to moderate hyzer still becomes a backhand roller despite ending in -2 | 3, whereas I find Discraft Thrashers an as-expected ending of -3 | 2 much more accurate.
I throw with a slight hyzer naturally. The MVP Catalyst and Inertia have met expectations to flip up fly straight and fade in the end. I was looking to replace my Vibrum Unlace because of availability. I have bought many discs that didn't meet expectations based on flight numbers. I have watched your entire series on flight numbers don't matter. I have discs in my bag because of those videos. The hex and the paradox. The hex to go straight or hold a hyzer line and the paradox Togo right.
I love the Brave. Replaced my shimmer tournament FD and gstar Hawkeye with a royal grand Brave. It's also a glidier Maverick which gave me success.
I'm very amateur level (60yo 3years in). I've found that Lat64 discs I've tried so far are actually like the numbers. I had the Diamond in opto, with expectations coming from Innova and discraft, expecting not much turn and a fade back, only to discover that it actually had that - 3 turn. I sold it, because it was too understable for the gap I was looking to fill - and now I'm looking at Lat64 first when I want a new disc, because I can trust the numbers more than other brands. And they have many glidy discs, which helps amateurs who are distance challenged)
Huh… your right my supreme escape does fly like that, I was thinking I kept throwing bad shots 😂
That's why I love the domey 10 year escapes. MUCH more stable out of the box.
It boggles my mind when ever you show that supreme escape! For me, out of all my escapes (at least 1 in each plastic) the supreme is way more overstable. Definitely seems to be the outlier, but I love it because that was my expectation when I bought it.
My sublime lobster off the shelf flew exactly as I expected with it's long turn that panned but did not fade.
My steady cookie flew a bit more overstable than expected, but once beat in it flies exactly how I want in that classic teebird slot.
This makes me WANT to buy the Brave to battle it out with =K= Stig... It went SOO far for Caleb! ;D
This was a great video. We as disc golfers do have an expectation for what certain discs are supposed to do. For me with anything 9 speed or higher, a -1 2 disc will most likely be dead straight. A perfect throw might get me 1-2 feet of mid flight turn and then some fade once it slows down.
My expectations is that Lat discs always turn more than numbers. They are an extra -1, always. Especially their 6 glide discs that are almost -1.5 extra.
Yup exactly as this video describes. I wished it had a bit of a harder bite. Nice floating big glide nice turn just no fade really. However the jakub samerad tour series run of his braces flies exactly as the flight numbers suggests. Kinda wish the stock runs did as well
Biggest bucked expectations was with Discmania's new plastics. The new FDs and P2s are considerably more overstable than even their adjusted flight numbers in the new C-line plastic. Old FDs used be labeled -1 | 1, and they labeled the new FDs 0 | 1, but the new FDs fly more like a 0 | 2
The clash mango flies super stright for me ,the brave is a great disc for my arm speed its a great straight flier
I've not had specific experience with either of the discs in the video, but I would say that for me the most annoying thing about flight numbers is actually know when the disc will actually provide the flight I'm expecting - is it out of the box? is it after some seasoning? is it after 10 tree hits? I'm pretty happy, in general when a disc flies within a "visual standard deviation" of the flight numbers - which is entirely subjective. Discs that have been nowhere close for me out of the box: ESP Thrasher, Fission Hex, MVP Wave, and Innova Valkrie. Discs that have been the most accurate for me out of the box have been Trash Panda's Dune and Ozone, Kastaplast Falk, Innova Star Mamba, Prodigy 400 M4, and the Innova Toro.
I found a supreme escape in a pond. It was fairly new. Threw it a bit then traded it in to get $4 to help me get an Innova Champion Savant
Trilogy numbers have always seemed to only make sense when you double the turn numbers. When I was exploring discs still trying to figure things out for my first bag, trilogy flight numbers were extremely confusing when you started with innova and discraft.
Loft uses computational fluid dynamics to calculate their flight numbers so I would trust theirs more than anything else
I think exactly like you do for -1, 2.
Waiting anxiously for the titaniums to ship. As far as the brave, I have 4 of them from prototype to new Jakob Smerad tour disc and they all throw the same, but not like yours does. In order to get mine to do the path of yours I would have to put it on a 25-30 degree anhyzer. I understand the frustration for a merchant trying to match a disc to a player’s needs, but I use it when I need something more stable than a river. When I need something more stable than that I throw the -wait for it- glory. I think you may have a dud or a batch that came out flippier than it is supposed to be. Love the grand plastic!
I got a blue Champion Leopard3 when I started disc golf 7 years ago. After a short beating in it was a great straight fairway for a beginner like me, as expected. When it beat in a little more and my arm speed increased it got very understable, as expected. I got a couple yellow ones as a backup and they are not even close to being the same disc. Stupid beefy! They fly almost like an FD3 for me even after beating in. I compared the discs on a flat surface and the yellow ones have several millimeters higher parting line.
i thought simon's new tesla would neatly fill my undertaker slot (and look a lot better while doing so), but it's definitely closer to the firebird slot for me. or maybe i'm just bad at throwing it.
I can throw my Champion and Star Teebirds 350' with consistancy and accuracy. Thought I could level up to the Thunderbird. Flight numbers are the same. Just different speed. So, I bought one. However, my Halo Thunderbird is a an absolute meathook for me. Might as well backhand my Felon.
I thought the same thing but my Thunderbird flies like my Firebird. I bought a savant and I enjoy it much more. It throws well backhand and forehand. Disclaimer, I throw up in Denver.
I feel like you're opening pandoras box. If you carry on with these flight numbers don't matter video's, then you will be obligated to compare all active disc molds. And to be honest, I'm down for that journey 😂
I bought the Halloween insanity in eclipse plastic when it first came out and didn’t expect to be throwing a fireball.
That's why kasta is the epitome of "subtract 1 turn from the disc" they are slightly more understable than the numbers other than in K1 hard
I bought a first run cap rap that I expected to be more overstable than the z raptor I had been throwing. Well the cap rap is the same or less stable as the z raptor. I chalked it up to be throwing the cap rap slightly better nose angle than the z raptor. 😂
My friends and teammates throw on different angles with their forms. I prefer near flat to slight anhyzer naturally and am heavy on flex shots while some friends throw on slight hyzer or even a ridiculous amount of hyzer. It’s really hard to throw unfamiliar discs from their bags, and even if the flight number system became universal and accurate somehow, it would still be a little tough to account for different forms. It makes it very tough to describe discs with its current state, and it takes away from throwing your friends’ money discs.
Mako3 (in DX).
By the reviews and look of things online as I was searching for a straight mid for my wimpy beginner throws (and beginner sized wallet), I thought I found one.
As soon as I that thing left my hand it kept getting more and more understable. It became basically unusable for any shot that had a modicum of power behind it after one round of play.
Lost that thing last week - even after putting an extreme amount of hyzer on it, it immediately flipped up and began turning into a valley with thick bushes and weeds.
So now I know to always check the plastics when looking up disc reviews online. I also learned to not fear the slight price bump for the increased chance of meeting expectations.
PFN days sure feel like they were the days of true grip it and rip it.
Personally(ME)- I would really like to see a hybrid disc golf driving range and/or tech disc(with a "suction cup sensor" for any disc). Try before you buy style retailer. With the increasing price of discs and the slowing down of the market, being able to try the disc would be a route I would like to see.
I throw a Fission Wave(155g) -3|1. Proton Wave(158) -2|2. Neutron Wave(157) -1|2. My arm speed is in the low 50's and I tend to throw nose up with a low launch angle.
The Axiom Trance is 8 5 -2 1 but it flies like 8 4 -.5 2
It's an excellent disc if you want something overstable with a very slight flip up
My Supreme Escape flies neutral to slightly o/s for me. Fore or backhand consistently.
I bought an esp flx undertaker that is so dummy stable and i can’t explain it. Def did not meet my expectation
For me, the brave flies just like my servo, straight with decent fade at the end. In all fairness though, I'm struggling to hit 300ft and only average in the 800's rpm with a tech disc.
I expected the Neutron Timelapse to be overstable, but not THAT overstable (i then tried adding more dome to it for fun by heating and stretching it, safe to say i messed it up and pretty much ruined it lol). I also expected some turn out of the Octane (-1, 2) but i got none whatsoever. The Excite, which is a -2, 2, was supposed to be more understable than a Tantrum, which is a -1,5, 3, but it isn't. I didn't expect a C-line PD to be THAT overstable. I expected the new S-line PD2 to be more overstable than it is. After throwing (and losing) my C-line FD i expected the S-line FD would turn a bit more, but not THAT much more. I had a DX Teebird that was an absolute turnover beast, so when i lost it and found a beat in Champion one i thought it could replace that slot in my bag. I was wrong, it flew straight as an arrow.
It’s taken me like 2 months of games and field work to learn the brace. It goes far but on hyzer it hyzerflips…sometimes. And other throws it’s turns over.
It’s good at max %60 power for wooded shots
In my head a -2, 1 should turn -2 and come back at the speed of 1. In theory -2,1 = -1 so it should finish and land -1 to the right of where the throw started. For a right handed player if the turn is higher than the fade it should always be to the right of the original line.
Seriously... First of all; flight numbers Should be looked at as a guide for beginners starting to buy discs from a company. Yes, A (1) company! because comparing them between companies is just stupid because we still don't have a throwing robot that can set and compare the flight numbers for ALL discs. Another thing is, Latitude is setting their numbers at ~330ft (100m) But Discmania usually sets them for a 400ft (~120m) throw, that's a huge difference in how the disc will fly and behave. Another thing is what I think you said in the video, we all have different throwing form, spin and release angels etc. SO to say that a disc is -1 for a player could easily be 0 for another one and -2 for a guy that have a lot of flutter (for example). And that could happen with using the exact same disc, so the numbers isn't a conclusion or something to be looked at as a fact written in stone... The only thing the numbers are good for is., -You buy a disc from a brand, you throw it and it is a tad too stable for you, then it should be a lot easier to buy the next one (from the same manufacturer) and probably be very successful with your next buy. Then we have molding issues, plastic batches, different plastics, poor storage and shelves in shops, etc etc. So once again, Flight numbers isn't a fact its a guide at best.
I'm more baffled that people still debates numbers,,,,(especially in between brands) Just look below and see how people have different feelings and expressions just because we all have different throwing techniques etc. When the day comes when the sport has a robot that can set the numbers, and perhaps should be operated by the PDGA, it's just a "guess work" because it's not a measured fact in any means. Speed is almost laughable because these days the speed equals the rim width, not the actual speed the disc can withhold after for example 300ft. Which would be a lot more accurate measure. A rim could be very wide but also very blunt so the rim width is not always a good measure. A good example is the Trident from L64, it has a rim width of 1.9cm and should be a speed 8-9 discs, but it's a Speed 6 because it's so blunt and also so slow in the air.
The absolutely worse thing I see is when disc reviewers tests a new disc, for example an understable putter. And the first thing they do is to rip the shit out of the disc with a drive. Then they go on and bash on the disc because it doesn't fly stable enough etc. This without realizing that perhaps a putter should be reviewed as putter and for throws under 150ft. OR when they for example reviews the L64 Diamond, and throw it 350ft. with an obvious crash and burn flight... wtf, it's not made for that power or shouldn't even be reviewed buy a guy that can throw that far. It's for beginners , kids, slow arm players and more. And as the cream on the cake.. the same reviewer then disagree with the flight numbers... sigh
My best
Thomas
Great points. The Trident is a magical unicorn disc. The blunt rim gives it a long long lifetime. It holds that stability for years. It definitely flies like a 6 speed in my opinion. Thank you for the explanation.
Has Caleb thrown a TechDisc? I'm curious what his spin rate is because lower spin with higher speed will make discs more understandable
My escapes fly way more like the last one shown.
Latitude has some crazy high stability numbers compared to others. Imo Maul is -4, River -3 and Brave is -2. Also Bolt is -5, Faith -2, Pure -2 or -3 depending on plastic. They're great discs for people who have patience to throw slower but because it's always windy here those discs become quickly useless in real life. But L64 is not universally wrong. I feel e.g. Diamond, Jade, Saint, Saint Pro, Honor, Sapphire, Glory, Musket, Grace, Rive, Stiletto, Ballista Pro, Mercy, Dagger, Mace, Compass, Trust, Core are right on the money. Yes, I own too much plastic, and this is all subjective, but but... I can e.g. yank the Core with full force and it's 6/5/-0.5/1, but Brave's 7/6/-1/2 just turns and burns thrown moderately.
So, my conclusion is. If glide exceeds 5, subtract (glide - 5) from the stability. (Exclude for Saint.)
River is definitely super flippy. Flippiest disc in my bag actually.
I had to give my fuse away because it never did what I wanted/expected it to do no matter how I threw it.
Always went the wrong way and OB a lot!
Adding that the Maul I have is Opto, River is Opto Ice Orbit and Brave is Johannenes Be Happy Swirly Grand whatever. I have Pure in Ice Orbit and "something soft" and Faith in Sense - that disc likes to fly but it's understable. Also it's important to note that DD has altered some flight numbers for their Supreme discs. E.g. Supreme Trespass is much easier to throw at -0.5/2 than Lucid. If I could recommend something the new Supreme Fugitive is a great throwable overstable mid.
Clash Soda met my expectations, MVP Impulse and Alfa Atlantis really did not.
-1/2 is pure beef for my noodle alarm.
I just bought a Brave this weekend and threw it for the first time yesterday. I have the same initial thoughts about the flight. Feels to be move flippy than the numbers suggest
Based on the numbers, I thought the Brave would be a slower Grace. I was surprised to find it to be very flippy. To be honest I was quite disappointed. I regret buying it.
Yeah, I debagged the Brave a few rounds after getting it since I like discs to be true to numbers. That's why I bag the Pathfinder since it's super true and why I removed the Supreme Escape.
I kind of think your concept of -2 is more like what my brain tells me looks like -3. And the reverse, since 2 fade to me is pretty good right to left at the end (RHBH), something like 40-50 ft. Vs 3 fade which would be like 50-70 ft and 1 fade which should be minimal like C1 max.
you need more subscibers
Working on it lol, thanks!
My brave does fly like the numbers shown for it. Im suprised with the escape comparison but can see that its a pretty good comparison. I've compared it to my River and Explorer. It sits right in the middle of those 2 for me. A Gold River and brand new Brave fly very similar, with the Explorer having the more noticeable fade. A beat in River has a very late fade and the Brave beaten in will have a similar understability compared to the river. My beaten in Brave does have a more reliable fade compared to the River though. Keep up the good work though with these Vids, we gotta let these companies know what is going on with these discs!
I wonder if different color Brave's have different stability... I got a blue one, my brother has a blue one, and a buddy has a blue one and they all fly like the numbers suggest. It only flies like yours if there's a headwind or if I rip on it like it's 12 speed 350'+ and don't give it any hyzer.
The Orbit Jakub Brave flew true to -1 2 for me. Supposedly, the Brave was modeled after the Explorer.
That doesn't surprise me too much, my Orbit Grace was more OS than the stock one, and the Explorer can be flippy in some plastics but beefy in others. Thanks for the insight!
I bought a drift after throwing my friends his well worn and actually flipped more than i was expecting. with 7 5 -2 1 as the numbers his was probably closer to -3 1 so when i bought mine i knew it would take time to beat it in. We are a year past that and i have had to come to terms with owning the most stable -2 1 of all time. It competes with my exodus which has -.5 2 as its numbers.
Yea sometimes it just doesn't beat in, though I might suggest watching last week's video to speed things along...
I got a Brave in that color plastic... And it flies like you show. I was really hoping for a disc that would fit between the Explorer and River. Instead it fights with the River in my bag, possibly being less stable than a fresh opto River. That said, I got the Johannes Royal Burst Brave, and it flies truer to -1, 2... So apart from losing the Rivers consistently into the tall brush, what do I do with the collection I've built...
Discmanias rockstar has a -2 1 fade, which ends more like a 0 2.
Latitude 64 Grand Strive - same thing as with Escape/Brave
Oh snap, I need one then lol
I'm going to disagree with the brave being that understable i have 2 and both never turn over on me. I understand elevation and all that but man that's just so polarizing to my experience with the brave!
Teebird 3s tend to match the flight numbers
Mine does not. It is more stable than my Thunderbirds. Straight beef.
@@CasualRelief i think you have more arm speed than me. My teebird 3 never does what I want it to.
did I just get a weird run of the brave, or maybe just not enough arm to flip it yet? I have a purple one as well and for my arm speed, I can get it to go about 320' on a rip, and it is more of a lazerbeam. I can't get it to flip over. I actually bought it with the expectation that it should flip more than it should (setting my expectation from all the peer reviews, not the flight numbers) - I wanted it for that slot in my bag, a flippy 7 speed, but it's not doing it .. : P
Latitude stuff is always more understable than they say so I expect it to not be in my bag...
Have you compared the different plastics of the Discraft cicada?
Not the Cicada specifically but we did one on Discraft plastics not too long ago
Got a 400 f2 it flew like 7 5 -4 1
What day are you gonna be at LWS? I have a ticket for Sunday.
We are planning to be there for both the player meet & greet (Wednesday night), and all three days of the event (Fri - Sun)
@@SixSidedDiscs oh sweet. Yea I’ll see you there man.
Stag is the perfect-1/2 imo. It does exactly that. Add more or less turn depending on arm speed
Oof, my VIP Stag is more understable than any Roadrunner I’ve thrown.
DD Maverick gave me WTF? Moment 😅
The Maverick in Fuzion burst flew true to the numbers for me. It's the plastic.
I recently tried the Maverick. My first impression doing field work was that it was unremarkable and wouldn't make my bag. I've since played a couple of great rounds with it on heavily wooded courses. As a low powered player, I've been able to reliably shape shots with it.
@@cautiousoptimist1926 I don't think the flight number is right on Maverick. I thought it'd be a tad bit more overstable. But it has become my wooded course fav for sure
The DGA Sail is a massive fraud. Says -5 turn so I was expecting a Rollo type flippy driver but it flies like the Brave in this video. Says it's an 11 speed but it's the rim width of a 9 speed, 1.9 cm. It's basically a Heat masquerading as a Mamba.
Nobody should buy a disc online if they haven't looked and felt it live first. If you do, be prepared to waste a lot of money.. When it comes to flight numbers though - well, it doesn't matter.
Flight numbers matter. Flight numbers are generally accurate. Some older Trilogy molds have numbers that make no sense. Most of what this channel says about flight numbers is wrong.
very unusual take
Flight numbers are not the disc. But they are helpful. I wish they were more accurate to what my brain wants, but they are so amazing compared to nothing we had back in 1998 when I started buying plastic. Discraft just wrote XL, XS, XPress on the disc and hoped you would figure it out for your damn self. Innova put a picture of an animal on there. So I bought a cheetah and an XL because they sounded like they flew the furthest. Also, there was no disc golf shop or Internet. So yes, flight numbers are not very "accurate" but they are quite helpful to me. I look forward to the next standard to come along and help us know a bit better. Until then, sometimes you buy a disc and it is too flippy, or too fast for your arm. Well, find someone at your local course that might like it.