As a Christian I don't quite understand why I'm so attracted to your videos, but I walk away with a better understanding of what I belive and how I see the world.
@@Rolando_Cueva i dont believe God needs to elect people to damnation. Simply leaving them alone is sufficient. But I do believe in the predestination of the elect. But God has desired to make some for honorable use, and some for dishonorable use via romans 9.
Hey Jared. Licensed UPCI minister here and I’ve been waiting on this video since I found your channel. Definitely want to say I appreciate your fair and honest look at us, along with all the churches you visit. As a theology nerd myself, thank you for your defense of our status as “true Christians” and explanation of our understanding of the Godhead. I’d like to get into the theological weeds but I won’t. I do, however, want to encourage you to do a follow up video, especially in light of the very end of this video and explore the problematic aspects of the UPCI. As a relatively young minister in the organization, and having grown up in it, I see and have seen things that make me extremely uncomfortable. In short, we have to do better in so many ways and I do not believe in the cop out answer that so many give by saying “well the church is made up of people and people aren’t perfect.” I want to be part of the solution and not perpetuate the problems. Anyway, this is one of the best channels on RUclips. Praying for you, man.
I LOVE THIS RESPONCE I too grew up in this organization and see the problems I am so happy to see a Liscensed UPCI minister not only watching Jared's video's, SEES the problems AND wants to be apart of the solution. this is the coolest thing I have EVER read!!
I just love the "management" comments coming from you to you. 😂 As always, another great video. As a Christian, I feel like I have recently learned more about Christianity from you than I have from most Christians I know. It has been fun and refreshing. I'm always looking forward to your videos!
Hi jared! Former catholic, current non-denominational/unsure ish lol. I wasn't the biggest theology nerd, but i was an apologetics nerd, and i learned it specifically to have conversations with people of other denominations, not other religions. The biggest reason for being SO specific with the Trinity (that i understood) is that one of the easiest things to miscommunicate is that God is one god in three persons, and not three different gods. I dont know if anyone has commented this, it might just be too basic 😅, but it was the first thing that came to mind. On a separate note, i love watching your videos. I have found it to be very healing to hear someone else acknowledge questions and serious concerns with Christianity, and you do it with such grace and patience. Thank you ❤️
Thank you for covering Oneness Pentecostals. I’d LOVE to see more content on them. This was my former denomination, and it took me SO much detangling to leave; the denomination was so fear-based. But yet I still love the people there. I so appreciate how you give church groups a gracious response and try to find the best in them yet you hold them accountable and call them out. And I appreciate how deeply you think through your assessments of the churches and give an intelligent critique.
You asked why trinity was important. Its important because otherwise the whole soteriology wouldnt make sense. In oneness doctrine when Jesus died on the cross then that would imply that the whole godhood died which is clearly impossible and reflects the modalism heresy.
Also with oneness theology, they cannot logically say that God is love. The inner life of the Trinity is love, because there is perfect personal relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Without this, God needs something else other than himself to be the fullness of love -- us. He must of course, be love from eternity to eternity and thus he cannot be one person.
These are both really poor objections that both fail to hold up to trinitarian theology even. Did the "eternal son" die on the cross? No, the flesh did. Just like when you die it is only really your flesh that dies. To wit that the father was in the son reconciling the world unto himself. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. The holy spirit and father were in Christ. When you die will the holy spirit die? Clearly not. It is the flesh alone that does a physical death. Oneness is not jesus only. We don't believe that God only exists within Jesus, that's a characature. For the second point, God exists outside of time. So he can be love prior to creating the object of his love.
@@coreyhodge1798 No they are not. They are perfectly fine and I will expand why Your comparison between humans and the nature of god is simply wrong and leads to even more heresies. The holy spirit simply dwells in humans which is correct but you cannot make this comparison with God because it leads to other problems. Each part of the human(flesh,soul,spirit) represents a different part of which together make up the human. But each part of the Godhead is FULLY divine and is God. What you suggest is that at the death of Jesus the holy spirit somehow left Jesus and that the divine was seperated from Jesus at the death which is clearly wrong. Thus your is comparison wrong and would lead to the implication that the divine died with the human.
@@coreyhodge1798 Hello, apologies if I worded my comment poorly. Yes, God is outside of time and we cannot understand, in our finite minds, a time before God created the world. However, the point I'm trying to make is that we know from the Scriptures that God "is" love (1 John 4:8). So within time he certainly loves us -- his object of love, as you pointed out -- but he must, in and of himself, "be" love independently of us. Within the Trinity, God eternally begets his Word, the Son, as mirror image of himself. In doing so, the Father beholds the most perfect thing that could ever be -- a perfect replica of himself -- and adores the Son with all affection, and the Son does the same in return. Thus, what eternally proceeds from them is Love, which is the Spirit of God, who is also fully God, flowing forth from them both as one principle: from the Father through the Son. All three are fully God -- co-eternal, co-equal, consubstantial -- and are the same save the being unbegotten, the being begotten, and the procession. Thus because of the relationship between the three persons, God himself can truly be said to be love on his own. Like I said, Oneness theology cannot say this because love is an inherently relational quality and saying that God is only one person cannot explain this at all. Hope that helps. God bless.
@@coreyhodge1798Hello, apologies if I worded my comment poorly. Yes, God is outside of time and we cannot understand, in our finite minds, a time before God created the world. However, the point I'm trying to make is that we know from the Scriptures that God "is" love (1 John 4:8). So within time he certainly loves us -- his object of love, as you pointed out -- but he must "be" love independently of us. Within the Trinity, God eternally begets his Word, the Son, as mirror image of himself. In doing so, the Father beholds the most perfect thing that could ever be -- a perfect replica of himself -- and adores the Son with all affection, and the Son does the same in return. Thus, what eternally proceeds from them is Love, which is the Spirit of God, who is also fully God, flowing forth from them both as one principle: from the Father, through his beloved Son. All three are fully God -- co-eternal, co-equal, consubstantial -- and are the same save the being unbegotten, the being begotten, and the procession. Thus because of the relationship between the three persons, God himself can truly be said to be love on his own. Like I said, Oneness theology cannot say this with only one person in the Godhead because love is an inherently relational quality. You can only say that God "loves" because a relationship exists between him and his creation, but not that he himself "is love." Hopefully that clarifies things. God bless.
Great homework for us, thanks! Orthobro aspect. The Orthodox are not theology nerds; they have deep theology, but they do not say it is _the_ important thing. Devotion and practice are considered to be more important. And no one says "you go to hell" or "we go to Paradise"; "you" are not finished (still is wandering and evolving) and "I" am not God to judge. Church. This is not like "you belong to this church and you go to Paradise". We believe that, yes, there IS the work of devil. Mt 16,18, about the gates of Hades. The gates of Hades won't prevail against the Church. They will try it, hard and desperately. Just won't win if it is the Church. So - this is kind of the Orthodox view of the church - if you are outside, you are vulnerable (you don't have guarantee that the gates of Hades won't prevail _you_ personally). The church, that is all believers from all times (take a look at the iconostasis) is the safe space for you. So in essence, you do not "go to Paradise" _because_ you belong to the Church, but "if you want to go to Paradise", it is better for you to be within than outside, read Mt 16,18. ---------- The homework: Jn. 14:16. "_I_ will ask _the Father_ ..." two different "persons" existing at once (they communicate); and: "He will give you another Helper (allon Parakléton)", _another_ , so it's not me, and it's not Him. Based on this (and other similar) places, it would be _much easier_ to argue for the Arianism (expressed hierarchical subordenance between the "celestial persons") rather than for their substantial "Oneness". I would be just curious how Oneness people read this verse. :)
Hey Jared! I’m not religious but I love these videos. I found your channel because I moved to an apartment near a United House of Prayer for All People and was curious about it. Part of my extended family is very Pentecostal but I know little about it. I really appreciate your knowledge and the respect you give to every church you visit. Growing up very secular in a very religious area I was always confused about all the different nuances and why there were so many different churches. I’d never be able to do this myself, but this totally satisfies my curiosity. I also really enjoyed the Orthodox church videos, and I hope someday you might even audit some non-Christian religious services, I think that would be super interesting! Thanks for your work and looking forward to seeing more.
Growing up COGIC (pentecostal with similar theology to AG), recently converting to Catholicism, finding this channel has been really interesting. I love to see all perspectives and people really do themselves a disservice by not knowing arguments FOR the faith - like you mentioned, WHY is the Trinity important? Your research is really commendable and I'd love to have as much theology knowledge as you one day. For "does someone go to hell if they're in error", there's an interesting passage; Luke 12:48 - "But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating" So there is a certain line at which we aren't sent to Hell for our misunderstandings. But one passage before; Luke 12:47 - "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall received a severe beating". So if you SHOULD know, but ignore the truth, you won't be saved. What is the line of SHOULD knowing? It's fuzzy and best served to the Lord for that judgment. But we can speculate and take educated guesses. The Catholics, partly as a result of Luke, have a theology of "invincible ignorance" - if you did your best to find God, but found the wrong one, there is the POSSIBILITY of being saved (from, catechism of the catholic church CCC 1793 for invincible ignorance, CCC 841 for other religions potentially finding Heaven). Of course, a misconstrued understanding of God makes it much easier to not get saved by believing teachings that go against moral law, it's but not *impossible* to go to heaven under those conditions. Of course, if you started with a correct understanding and went to a misunderstanding, then it's much harder to claim *invincible* ignorance. Anyway, that's my ramblings from someone who is trying to delve deeper into Christianity. You make great content so keep it up :D
I’m generally skeptical of churches who install pastors with little to no theological training and preach what they feel “god lays on their heart” that particular day.
The oneness crowd actually pushes back against Unitarian theology. Basically, the oneness crowd would say that Jesus is God, while Unitarians would reject that belief. In short, the main objection the oneness crowd has with trinitarian theology is over the use of language. They argue that “three persons” results in three Gods. Instead, the oneness crowd prefers the language of “manifestation”. So rather than teaching multiple persons of God, they would argue that we’re looking at manifestations of God.
The theology of Oneness Pentecostalism is called Modalism. They believe that the son and the father are same. Modalism is similar to Unitarianism in the sense that both reject the doctrine of the trinity. Unitarians on the other hand simply believe that Jesus is a man, the messiah and the son of God like the bible says many times. You could think of Unitarianism as being on one side (Jesus is a man) and Modalism on the other (Jesus is God) with Trinitarianism in the middle (Jesus is both man and God).
I can't wait for you to investigate deeper the theological reasons behind the splits between the Oriental and then Catholic & Orthodox churches because baby it's ALL in the details of the trinity & christology (and of course the broader socio-political context) but remember a primary point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox to this day is whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father or the Father & the Son together. Loved this video. Just found your channel and have been binging the past week. As cradle Catholic, to atheist, to theist, to almost hindu back to Catholic this is my jam.
What the… was not expecting to hear such profound understanding, reason, compassion and shared sentiments from an atheist. Good work bro. Ironically, I feel believers really need to hear your takes. Keep up the good work man ❤
I am Orthodox. The average EvangelicL Protestant Christian doesn't know the history of why we believe what we believe mainly because they aren't being taught that in their churches. Church history for Protestants is usually the history of their denomination. I sat in on a class at a small Pentacostal bible college once and the instructor ,(a Pentecostal minister) mentioned "The Great Darkness" in class. I raised my hand and asked him what he meant by the Great Darkness. He told me "You know, the time between Constantine and Martin Luther!". Basically 1200 years of important church history are of no importance to them.
I really enjoyed your dialogue in this video. I enjoyed many of your videos since i discovered you last night. Since I come from a Oneness background, I really appreciate you.
I was part of a AG ministry in college. Definitely a lot of disturbing and misguided worship, but there was also such a healthy emphasis on the move of God and being active as the church. The people I interacted with were very welcoming to everyone and did a great job of meeting needs in the community. I'd rather congregate with those who have poor theology but are full of passion than a group of theologically sound people who are dead in their faith. Every part of the church has their strengths and weaknesses. Glad to hear your takes.
I'm so glad you quoted the "That's modalism, Patrick!!" because I am *also* incapable of thinking of Trinitarian heresies without that popping into my head. Re: beliefs about the Trinity: See, this is why I'm glad I'm a universalist. I cannot imagine that God decides whether to save us or not depending on whether we can define the Trinity correctly. (Besides, the Trinity is A Mystery, and that's fine with me.) Re: did the Holy Spirit speak to him: That one is always tricky. I mean, I've had some religious experiences that felt like God speaking to me. But I also know (and I know YOU know) that human brains are good at seeing/hearing/feeling things that aren't there. So the thing I always come back to is: is this helping me love God and my neighbor? Because it sounds like what he experienced *did*. In which case it *doesn't matter* (to me!) whether the theology is sound or not. He felt a genuine experience with God's love and that's all that matters. The thing you're saying at 25:40 or so is what I keep saying!!! Whether someone is a universalist or not, the fact is, if you can't explain it to a reasonable five-year-old, there's no fucking way it's necessary to our salvation. Because otherwise God's just a dick and unworthy of worship.
The Trinity is said to be a mystery beyond human reasoning, impossible for us to understand or explain. It is the biggest obstacle to becoming a Christian and knowing God, is understanding the Trinity. Yet, the Trinity is simple and very easy to understand, if you know one thing. Jesus said; “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; . . .” (John 7:16-18) How can it not be from Jesus, if he is part of a Trinity? Jesus’ authority to forgive sins was given to him by God. “However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins-” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” And he got up and went to his home. When the crowds saw this, they were struck with fear, and they glorified God, who gave such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:6-8) Did Jesus Deny Being God in Mark 10:18? Yes, he did. ““Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18) Jesus was referring to what the OT stated, “For you, O Jehovah, are good . . .” (Psalm 86:5)
Jesus states that his Father is his God, Jesus worships his Father as God. “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”” (John 20:17) You don’t worship someone you are equal to, nor do you worship yourself. If this was true, then why does the Father never worship or pray to Jesus? The Father has authority over Jesus just as a husband has authority over his wife. “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) If you have a head or boss, you are not equal to them. How does this work with Jesus? Jesus will subject himself to his Father. “But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” (1 Corinthians 15:28) If you subject yourself to someone’s authority, you are not equal in authority to them. How can two members of the Trinity have different levels of authority, while the third member, the Holy Spirit seems to have none and is never even pictured as having a body? Can Jesus be both God and the mediatory between God and men? “. . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all-. . .” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) “. . .Now there is no mediator when just one person is involved, but God is only one.” (Galatians 3:20) Why did Paul write both verses? Why did he not explain it in light of the Trinity? These are very complex questions with a very simple answer that is so obvious once you know it. This answer is staring you in the face it is so simple. Just think about it, what did a Jew have to accept and believe to become a Christian? It was only one thing.
“Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins,. . .” (Acts 2:38) “. . .God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”” (Acts 2:36) All a Jew had to do was accept Jesus as the promised messiah. The word ‘messiah’ means anointed, as in anointed to become king. The Jews just had to accept Jesus as the king in the kingdom promised by God. They did not have to learn about or believe in the Trinity. Which is why Jesus never gave a sermon on the Trinity, why he never even mentioned it or explained it. No one in the Bible ever does. The Trinity is an impossible mystery until you unlock the secret of it, that makes it very easy to understand, the Trinity is a lie. It is a false doctrine. That is why it is not in the Bible. Why would the Bible explain something that doesn’t exist? Once you understand this simple solution to the mystery of the Trinity, it is like the scales falling from Paul’s eyes after he accepted Jesus as the promised messiah. With this understanding, it makes understanding God and scripture so much clearer and easier. Suddenly it is like you can see for the first time and everything makes sense when unsolvable mysteries beyond human understanding suddenly pop like a soap bubble and you wonder why you didn’t see it sooner.
Former UPCI Pastor here, The Oneness came out of the AG, manyAG ministers were rebaptized in Jesus name at the Formation and both F,S,HS Baptism and Jesus name Baptismal formula were tolerated. The old periodicals from that time are online and for the first few years they wrote a statement of Toleration for both views were placed at the beginning of each issue. I have found many Trinitarian Pastors are open to receiving people from a Oneness past without any rebaptism or recantation.The,”they are not Christian, comes primarily from Cath/Ortho and Calvinistic Reformed. There are many independent churches in Appalachia that are made up of both sides. The AG did not require the ministers that left for Oneness to be rebaptized after they returned to the AG they just took them back.
Augh fine I’ll subscribe to your awesome channel (All jokes aside, your vids keep popping up on my feed and as a deconstructed pentecostal fundamentalist I’m loving them)
Dude I just love the way you do your videos… you’re so good at calling us out as Christians but in such a way that reflects the character of Jesus. Like we as Christians should strive to become more and more like Jesus, so with that mindset, would Jesus deny the faith of an entire theological sect because of one different belief? I mean yeah he might go flip some tables and correct them, but that’s on Jesus to figure out, not us. Only God decides who goes to heaven and who doesn’t, so it’s not our job to argue about it or shun each other based on theological differences, our job is to love our neighbors.
I get what you're trying to say, but I must disagree. Jesus said that people wouldn't enter heaven in his words in John 8:24 "Because you do not believe I am He, you will die in your sins." Jesus did judge others over theological differences and said they would be going to hell. I also say this as a former Oneness Pentecostal. Paul says in Galatians 1:8 that if someone preaches a false gospel, they are anathema. The Oneness Pentecostals preach something completely different to historic Christianity. Another thing, how can you deny who God is, and say he's something else, and say they're the same thing? We deny Mormons are christians with good reason, why are the Oneness Pentecostals getting the pass? They take the son, the eternal creator, and demote him to a mere human nature that contains the divine nature.
@@Sermonator9000 I have to agree with @Kaykay-bzirf on this one. Most Christian denominations and churches hold the same bible just emphasize different aspects of the same core belief in Jesus. We deny Mormons because they add their own "holy book" on top of the bible as canon. Oneness Pentecostals on the other hand believe in the same bible as any other bible believing christians do and (at least to my knowledge) don't add any other books on top of it. On a sidenote I would actually go as far as to say that even Mormons can be saved. We deny them for their doctrine but that doesn't mean they can't be saved by their belief in Jesus. Anyway like Heliocentric pointed out in the video, to think that everyone would have to hold the exact same nuanced and educated understanding of Jesus Christ to be saved is quite a lot to ask especially in light of passages like 1.Tim 2:3-4. Suppose Oneness Pentecostalism was right and all the other churches were damned for their beliefs, how many true believers would that leave us with?
@@paulballister1 Okay, let me ask you then. Muslims believe in Jesus, are they saved? Now sure, they deny his deity and say he's just a prophet, but they believe in Jesus right? Mormons sure do believe in Jesus right?! Oh wait, the Jesus they're talking about is Satan's brother, and is a non-eternal being. Hindus believe in Jesus! But oh wait, they think he's one God among many. How far can you get from the Jesus of the Bible and still be saved? Jesus isn't a created being, he is the great I am. Saying he's just a flesh nature that the father inhabits, or he's just a human prophet, or one God among many doesn't get to that.
Another great video from a fellow theology nerd. Thank you. 🙏 Good theological discussion (keeping the trinitarian-unitarian-modalist conversation in perspective - great work! - and with a well-deserved shout-out to Lutheran Satire). @07:51 Looking forward to your Christian Science church audit. :) (I’m a regular visitor to a sister church in the New Thought Movement, “Unity Church”).
@3:35 I agree! I think the architecture speaks volumes. lex orandi lex credendi , I once got to tour an orthodox church in my home town which was out of this world. I felt like I had walked into heaven.
one of my favorite videos of yours yet! grew up Methodist, now an eclectic witch who believes in divinity, but savors the mystery of it. I'm a little shocked at how many people in your comments are simply condemning this theology without showing any sign of engaging with the questions around it that you so eloquently posed in your video. I will never understand having 100% certainty about a belief that damns others. keep up the good work, Jared! exjwpanda is a great channel if you haven't seen his stuff yet. I especially recommend his Caleb and Sophia videos- animated series for witness kids. looking forward to your continued JW learning, and I hope you end up going to another House of Prayer for All People! I used to live right near the one in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, and it WAS FASCINATING to see the disparity between your two experiences with their congregations. it's so refreshing to hear Christianity discussed in a compassionate and earnest way within a nonbelieving paradigm. love your stuff, man!
Hey Jared! I’m a believer and a theology nerd too lol I gotta say, your channel is fascinating. I love the admiration you have for complex theological stances. I can share in the awe of how beautiful they can be. I have been wondering what’s your stance on walking by faith and not by sight? What’s your favorite book of the Bible and why? Okay hoping you reply ☺️✌🏼
Hey my name is thalon Drake I go to the church your talking about I’m also the nephew of the pastor and I just wanna say thank you for being so respectful to my uncle pastor and to my church I really appreciate this not a lot of atheists are nice to me or my church again thank you so much
Physics nerd here telling you the heat of the star and the light of the star are the same and they _are_ the mass of the star; since mass and energy are convertable, the electromagnetic energy came from the mass defect of nuclear reactions; while optical light is even "warmer" (takes more energy) than the infrared light (warmth), being on a continuum that is dissected only because of the sensitivity ranges of our different sensors. Having trolling made complete for today, thanks for the content, the channel is great, I am about to see al your vids so far and follow you in the future.
I think a great deal of vitriol stems from missing the point of the Christian life. There’s a lot of focus on ‘being saved.’ Salvation is our hope, not our purpose. Our purpose is to become like God. If one believes in Oneness Doctrine, he does not know the God he is supposed to become like. Even though the word trinity is not used within the first few hundred years of the church, the concept was presented throughout Scripture, including the Old Testament, and ancient verbal traditions. It was, also, one of the first things elucidated in Church history, at the first ecumenical council. Beyond that, though, there are logical arguments for the trinity as well-that opens a bunch of cans of worms, though, what with essence/energy distinctions, uncreated energies (particularly love) needing a community to flow within and out of, etc. So I don’t want to get into all of that here in a comment. I agree with your resistance to holding the laity to the same standard as the clergy and/or teachers, but the pastor at that church, inasmuch as Protestants have clergy, is the clergy and should have a basic knowledge of history and theology. Seeking cannot be understood as feeling a thing. We all feel all kinds of things-these feelings don’t even have to come from the demons because we all have our passions that control us to varying degrees. The passions come from habits, and habits are more harmful than any demon. To truly seek, does not mean to feel. Seeking implies action, work, some form of asceticism. When we hear the still small voice of God, we ought to test it, not because God deceives, but because we deceive ourselves. We will be held accountable for the breadth and depth of our knowledge, so I will not make claims of salvation, but I do know we are all sick and the medicine is the sacraments of the ancient, holy, apostolic Church.
the idea that failure to assent to complex philosophical propositions makes a person worthy of endless suffering is the main reason I'm not a christian tbh
Good news for you is that you do not need to know complex philosophical propositions but instead repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your personal Lord & saviour, live a life denying yourself and following him. If you choose not to then you choose not to partake in the promise of eternal life given by God through faith and obedience in his son. There is no endless suffering, just annihilation for all who do not wish to be adopted into God's family. We all must choose. God bless
I'd argue that making up things and teaching them to others that are wrong would have that result. But believing yourself in a heresy that someone else made up isn't an automatic ticket to Hell. "Invincible Ignorance" as I commented elsewhere here.
To me that thing is how they will argue incessantly about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin', as if they had any, much less sufficient evidence to adjudicate between explanations. God is one, God is three, blah blah. Humanity has been using logic and 0 evidence to discuss the universe for thousands of years, and it got us nowhere. Then in a few hundred, gathering evidence, we were able to jump from 1 to 8 billion leaving better lives than ever. Our understanding of Creation has only prospered when we ditched 'pure' philosophy, and acquired evidence. To expect something else from arguing about God's nature, while having even less evidence is sheer folly. Much less to discount Christians from Christianity because they believe a slightly altered version of something, we can't possibly know because of a dearth of evidence, is the same as those philosophers who were arguing whether there's 4 or 5 elements that make up everything.
If you're really interested to know how and why correct Trinitarian theology is necessary to a correct understanding of soteriology, then you ought to reach out to Jay Dyer and talk to him about it. He'll help you understand why correct Trinitarian theology (i.e. Cappadocian Trinitarianism) is absolutely necessary for a correct understanding of soteriology. This is something that Protestants usually don't consider since they usually start with soteriology first and then address Trinitarianism almost as an afterthought. Orthodox theology has always began with the Trinity first to understand everything else, whether it's soteriology, ecclesiology, the nature of man, etc.
Oneness Pentecostal Youth Pastor here!! So glad you visited one of our services! Thank you for being gracious to us in your approach- I have grown up in the UPCI and am grateful for it. I enjoy your videos. I have listened to hours of atheistic arguments trying to make sure I know the best arguments and how to interact honestly with them. I enjoy teaching apologetics to young people. Glad to still be Holy Ghost filled and serving the Lord by the grace of God. May God guide you on your journey.
From an orthodox perspective when it comes to to revelation and the Holy Spirit guiding people. We don’t think that people can’t be led or that every “spiritual communication” is from god or from the devil. We should discern it with a priest and it shouldn’t be in contradiction of another teaching. Essentially you should discern these feelings but you shouldn’t dwell on them forever or let them guide you everywhere by themselves. I hope I explained this well.
That makes sense, but its still hard to grapple with stories where someone (like pastor Kenny in this video) earnestly seeks God, prays fervently about these subjects, and comes to a different conclusion than christians who are supposedly more orthodox. Because if someone earnestly sought God why would they be led in error?
@@TheJoeschmoe777Because you can’t trust what a person says. He could be lying, he could be deceiving himself, he could be praying in vain due to a plethora of things, pride, grieving the Holy Spirit etc But ultimately he somehow resisted the Holy Spirit. People will reject things they know are the truth for literally decades before finally submitting to the Holy Spirit. So he probably has presuppositions that he prays for God to “ confirm “ and he doesn’t so the man convinces himself that God in fact did contradict all previous revelation, which is insane…
@@vladgor4099 That's a loooot of assumptions there, man. Sure, he could be lying, deceiving himself, praying in vain, and all these other things. But he also could be earnestly seeking the truth. Who are we to look into this mans heart and say he wasn't?
Which is why you never make a spiritual decision by yourself. As it can be easy to take skin thing and go all Joseph Smith with it. You must be careful and not be too eager to chase something until you understand it and have it explained to you. You also should be able to explain it and biblically justify it to others.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. - Matthew 7:16-18 That's how I judge what spirit I am listening to, lol You're awesome, Jared!! Keep teaching kindness and genuine interest in humility! You're basically teaching people to be slow to judge and to find find human connection again ❤️
I don’t comment much on RUclips at all so idk how this works here but I grew up in a Oneness Pentecostal church in Detroit, MI. I’ve spent the last two years researching it a lot (which is presumably why your video just popped up on my TL) so I would love to engage with your (or your followers) if there are real questions to be answered. For starters, I would say that the primary issue with OP and most Charismatic denominations is that they require an inconsistent approach to reading and interpreting Scripture. For example, it doesn’t take any theological gymnastics to arrive to support for the Trinity. One can simply spend 15 minutes in the gospel of John and consider the use of language (basic pronouns, verbs, perspective, etc.) by Jesus and God to plainly see a differentiation between the two. The Oneness scholar must contort the language and themes of the NT and OT (i.e. the Angel of the Lord clearly being the Second Person) to maintain his belief system. It also does not hold up against the way Greek is written. The Greek language is very, very specific on how they address persons so that has to be discarded as well. That’s a long example but the primary point is that OPs have to dismiss basic logic and grammar to support their beliefs. And while it is very scary to consider the consequences, at the end of the day it’s either God or it’s not. And then it becomes a question on whether or not God is asking us to suspend rationale in order to support our beliefs.
Hey Jared, I love your content! If you're ever in the twin cities area, you should stop by the cathedral of St. paul. It's a gorgeous building and luckily the homilies are usually better then the last catholic mass you went to 😅
I’m a Oneness Pentecostal. Thank you for conducting an honest analysis and attending the church with an open mind. It’s always good for us to have these discussions and foster understanding and dialogue among different faiths, denominations, and traditions. I know the UPC isn’t perfect at all (believe me, I criticize it from within all the time), but it really is nice to have a non-OP person give an honest account rather than start from a place of stigma. I’ve considered trinitarianism both textually and historically, and I still think it’s mistaken. But like the pastor, I don’t profess to be the Judge, nor do I discount the experiences Trinitarians have with God. We’re all trying to grow in faith, and these discussions help us all to explore the Scriptures and find Truth. Once again, thank you, and I’m excited to watch more videos on your channel.
Okay, only one slight nitpicky beef. I wouldn’t say we think Trinitarians “secretly” believe in three gods while processing one. That implies a knowing intent of believing in three gods. I don’t know anyone who has that view. Rather, it’s more accurate to say that we believe Trinitarians often unintentionally speak in terms that-taken to their logical conclusion-can tend into tritheism. Personally, I take everyone at their word, that they believe in one god in good faith. In fact, that good faith understanding allows us to start from a place of commonality when we discuss the nature of a shared belief system: the proposition that only one God exists.
When I was at Presbyterian Church of America I was subbing for the kids pull-out Bible class. Supposed to teach the Trinity. The lesson plan of this curriculum was to give that diagram in your thumb nail to the kids and have them color it. To explain that NO, the trinity is NOT like a shamrock. Or like the 3 states of water. Or like an egg. These were 4 & 5 year olds 😑 I guess the geniuses who wrote the curriculum knew their theology well enough but never heard of the pre-operational stage of child development. The idea someone gets into heaven or not based on a given theological premise is absurd.
Hi Jared! UPCI person here. :) Enjoyed the video. I did want to make a quick statement concerning our view of the Godhead. While yes, a lot of Oneness doctrine appears as Modalism, and a lot of detractors call us such, I would argue that this is not an accurate representation of Oneness doctrine. Monarchian Modalism would be a more accurate term. What’s the difference? Modes. Modalism teaches that God “changes modes”. That He was first the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Ghost (or Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Ghost in regeneration). Oneness, however stands more upon the teaching of simultaneousism, in the Godhead. That God is the Father, was made manifest in the Son, and is the Spirit, with no separation of “modes”. (I hope this makes sense. But you appear intelligent enough to catch the difference here! lol) Love the video and fair representation of us :)
Also wanted to add, personally I’m not on the side of trinitarians at not saved, merely upon their belief of the Godhead. My biggest issue would be in the baptism they receive. Whether or not the name of Jesus was spoken over them. God is the ultimate judge. Also, the UPCI is known for its crazy worship. Visit many and you’ll see plenty of aisle runnings!
I absolutely love that people are arguing about the Trinity with an atheist who is a Pentecostalism apostate reviewing a non-Trinitarian church. Helio, being somewhat of an expert on the Trinity, not only does your average churchgoer not have a command of the Trinity, but 90% of ministers/pastors don’t either. As an ex-JW I have been enjoying your content since you attended a KH. You are so even handed and reasonable, and I deeply appreciate your perspective as one who left Pentecostalism.
Hey I am an ex jw and still trying to get my head around the trinity. I believe in God but not JW but can’t work out which denomination I belong to. And of course I don’t need I belong to any but I want a community so would like to find one that by and large aligns with my beliefs. I’m Scotland we have baptists (they are nothing like American ones) and I like my local one as they are a good community , have extra curricular unlike JW it was the watchtower all day long and nothing else. They don’t believe in infant baptism which I do not but can’t get my head round the trinity or hell. So not sure what to do. I may just tour a few churches and slot myself in. Sounds like fun.
@@sherylmarshall1444 I am a non trinitarian non JW Christian, you don't have to believe in either. Just be a disciple of Christ, that's good enough for him. The doctrine of the trinity and hell as a place of eternal torment are indeed unbiblical.
I love diving into Christians who believe differently than mainstream. It shows theres so much complexity and nuance in faith even within the same religion. Its a lot easier to do it as an atheist because we dont have the "youre not a true Christian" mindset.
The biggest issue at this point is that people get downright spiteful and mean when you don’t fully agree with them. I can say that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and believe fully in my heart that God raised him from the dead and made him Christ and Lord just like the scriptures tell me is required for my salvation, but then I get a Trinitarian telling me that I’m a heretic and going to hell because I believe that Yahweh is God alone and there is no other like him and Jesus is he Son who has been given all authority. And I grew up fully accepting the Trinity until I was challenged to really read the scriptures and I don’t see it without some exhausting mental gymnastics to make it appear in scripture. Doesn’t matter that I love Jesus more than I ever have in my life. That I’m seeking him more than I ever have. According to Trinitarians I’m just a heretic. And I’m not a Oneness. I’m a biblical Unitarian. And believe me, I would embrace the Trinity again if I could see it in the whole of scripture, it sure would make life easier. But I’m looking to worship God in spirit and truth, not tradition.
@@wombatedge That really sucks. Jesus said to love and pray for our enemies and to judge not. I definitely don't remember him saying to be hateful against those who believe in a different doctrine of the Trinity. Understanding the Bible and belief and non belief is so personal. I think when I was a christian I would have first thought you're wrong instead of wanting to hear you or want to learn. I think people will just believe what their church or pastor says instead of trying to read the Bible or change their minds. I think some people are just assholes regardless.
@jonathanfarquhar It really is a shame. Most people are way more concerned about being right and proving others wrong that truly seeking out truth. And that’s a scary thing.
@@wombatedgeYou evidently see the same problem I have always seen with all the "inities" and "isms" and "itarians" they have some very valid scriptural issues. I have finally found a solution I'm happy with that is consistent and coherent with all the language. I call it Divine Traducionism, but if you can think of a better name I'm open to suggestions. The short story is that I was looking at Hebrews 7 where Paul says Levi was, so to speak, in Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek. I had always been told the "so to speak" meant he was just making an analogy, but that didn't make sense if the argument was to actually prove the point that Jesus was a superior high priest in the typology of Melchizedek without genealogy. Hmmm ... could I actually restate this as LEVI WAS ABRAHAM AND WITH ABRAHAM? Sounds like John 1:1. Did the "so to speak" actually mean that Levi just wasn't consciously aware that he was paying the tithes to Melchizedek while being actually in Abraham's loins? After all that's what Paul says and he uses the argument to prove the point, so his audience must have already believed that Levi was Abraham and with Abraham, otherwise Paul would have had to prove that point first. So, I googled something like "what did 1st century Jews believe about the origin of souls". This pulled up the Traducionism V Creatianism debate which happened after Nicea. Turns out the vast majority of Christians believed in the Traducion origin of souls, that were all in Adam. This "soul" was passed on to us "genetically" through the seed that forms the blood and the life is in the blood. The verses that seem to be talking about the creatian of a new soul are just as easily read as the molding of the individual personality from the "soul stuff" inherited. So, I asked myself, if this is what they believe about a normal human soul then how would they interpret the soul that exists from a virgin birth? It was God and was with God in the beginning, just like Levi was Abraham and with Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek and we were Adam and with Adam in Eden. Now, I see this Divine Traducionism uses all the different terms and language we have in the different models in a very simple way. Blood comes from the Father so Jesus is genetically and ethnically divine. This is why 1 John 5 says that the blood TESTIFIES that Jesus is the son of God, just like a paternity blood test.
Have you gone through the Bart Erham wormhole yet? Christian turned atheist turned biblical scholar, professor and author. He has a lot of interesting things to say about what the Bible actually teaches about the trinity
He was Evangelical so his theology and christology was cooked to begin with unfortunately which shows in what he believes But even Bart will openly admit and has on many occasions said the bible does teach the trinity and that Jesus did believe he was God and so did the apostles
@@makeytgreatagain6256 that’s not correct. For anyone reading, and for yourself if you’re engaging in good faith, just Google bart erhman and the trinity. He has ample videos and blog posts he has dedicated to the subject. It’s quite a complicated and nuanced subject. Ultimately these are some of his main points, that he states clearly, over and over again: Jesus never claims to be God outside the Gospel of John. And John isn’t taken as historical because it was written so many years after Jesus was on earth and the other gospels. Nearly ALL scholars agree with him about how problematic the book of John is. Copied directly from Bart’s blog on the subject: (also see his book, misquoting Jesus) “Jesus himself did not claim to be a divine being and his earthly followers did not see him as divine… There is nowhere in Bible that we have an explicit reference to the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, and the three are actually one. With an exception. The doctrine of the Trinity DOES seem to be explicitly taught (or nearly explicitly taught) in 1 John 5:7… The Gospel of John is extremely important for understanding where the doctrine of the Trinity came from. I should stress: the Trinity does not appear in the Gospel - nowhere does the Gospel say that there are three persons, all distinct from one another, all of them equally God, and yet there is only one God. That, in a nutshell is the doctrine of the Trinity. But even though the Gospel does not express the doctrine (either does any other book of the NT), the book could later be mined by those who wanted to find support for it. To that end, no passage could be more important than John… According to Erham, 1 John 5:7 is a textual corruption, which was added later, and therefore not a part of what John originally wrote.
Thanks for reminding me of Lutheran satire channel - I will be using some of his stuff this week in my class.. (Yes I teach theology at a classical school) and oh yeah, you’re on tap for fall semester-and they will be forced to subscribe.
Fine lol you have a new subscriber😂 . Been watching for a while, Christian here. But I like your video. I use them for bible study. They challenge me to go deeper in my walk and knowledge of God.
This reminds me of the sermon from Dr. Michael Heiser - "The True Meaning of the Gospel". He talks about how salvation isn't earned through good works, but it also not earned through special knowledge. It's through trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation. That's it
Love the vibes and the comedy, I am a Christian and sincerely believe in Christ as Savior and God. I will be looking for your new vids, good stuff. Also I hail from Charlotte, NC myself. Nice to see RUclipsrs from there.
As an Orthodox Christian I can say that salvation is much more about being part of the Church which is where God is wholly present and hence the way of life that leads to salvation is more apparent but even there, salvation isn’t guaranteed (but that’s a separate topic). God can save people outside of the Church if He so chooses and given that God is all good we have a hope that all will be saved but we also know that God is Just and won’t let people literally get away with murder either. It’s about what has been revealed to you as true and what you did with it. If you aren’t convinced a thing is true, I don’t think God is going to judge you for not accepting a thing you legitimately thought to be false. We would say a person who believes in the Trinity would have greater access to the mysteries of salvation but would also have greater responsibility because of that access. Salvation is not promised to Orthodox Christians simply because they are Orthodox. It’s much more messy then the clean cut western Christian traditions would like to adjudicate about it.
As a former Jehovah's Witness, the Trinity is one thing i cannot understand why it has the fervor that it does. It feels like a cult all on it's own. The main support i hear for it is extra biblical and personal testimony and philosophy. Jesus thought it was unthinkable to put himself at the same level as God, so how can people insist they are equal?
It actually does come right from the pages of scripture. Beginning in Mark chapter 1 verses 1-3: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'Behold I send my messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way; the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight." (LSB). The quotations from Isaiah and Malachi are referring to Yahweh. Malachi 3:1 ESV: "Behold I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple: and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says The LORD (Yahweh) of hosts." The prophecy from Yahweh of hosts is saying that *He* will come to His temple, the messenger being John the Baptist. Isaiah 40:3 ESV which Mark is also quoting says "A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD (Yahweh); make straight a desert a highway for our God." So the passages Mark begins his gospel with are about Yahweh (Jehovah, the LORD), coming to His temple. Jesus absolute thought He was on the same level as God, in John 17 during the High Priestly Prayer, Jesus says this: "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5 LSB), Jesus Himself believed that He shared the same glory with the Father before the foundations of the world. Hebrews as well says this about Jesus in chapter 1: "But of the Son He (The Father) says, 'Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish but You remain; and they all will wear out like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end." (Hebrews 1:8-12 LSB) The old testament passage towards the end, "You, Lord..." is Psalm 102 which at the beginning of the Psalm the author says "O Yahweh, hear my prayer! And let my cry for help come to You." (Psalm 102:1 LSB) The direct context of this Psalm is a prayer to Yahweh where the psalmist says that He created everything and is unchanging. The author of Hebrews through Divine Inspiration says that contextually this is applied to The Son, Jesus. The Trinity is entirely biblical, Paul uses the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4 to refer to both The Father and The Son in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Philippians 2 is a creed that says Jesus existed in the form of God and was made into the likeness of men. John 10:30-33 shows that Jesus was saying that He is God. And yes, I know the JW comeback of "that's just what the Jews thought." But that is *not what the text says* the text says "You, being a man, make Yourself God." That statement *definitively* in the eyes of John who was disciple writing the book, is Jesus declaring His Deity. It's how He can call Himself the "Good Shepherd" which comes from Psalm 23, He is the True Vine from Jeremiah 2:21, I could keep going. The point is, the Trinity is exclusively found in the Bible. Not even mentioning Old Testament passages concerning the Angel of Yahweh in Genesis 16, 22, 48:15-16, Exodus 3, Joshua, Judges etc.
I think about the accessibility of “proper,” fully informed Christianity a lot since deconstructing. My mom doesn’t understand any of this, and she’s been a committed Christian for decades. The substance of the belief of her and her peers is anecdotal.
Hey Jared, how would one go about making a church visit suggestion? As a former “member” of this church, I believe it’s a cult and have spoken out publicly about it, but to no avail. I would love to get your wonderfully honest opinion about it.
Hey Helio, if you’re ever in Iowa I have a church you could check out: Cornerstone World Outreach in Sioux City. Extremely cult-y vibes. Members must agree to the Church Bylaws, which are over 100 pages in length. Reading through the bylaws reveals the pastor of CWO has carefully insulated his power, ensuring he can’t be removed even if he breaks the law, and that the church will owe him a hefty payout when he finally retires. Doesn’t help that every major leadership role in the church is held by a member of his family. Plus all the recordings of their messages are hidden behind ‘Members Only’ access. Very strange characteristics for a church. Worth checking it out IMO.
Love it when you talked about dismissiveness that others have toward people who aren't like themselves theologically. It is awful. Absolutely awful. I have found myself in three denominations that are extremely different from one another, I have attended church in two more denominations that are different than those, but yet I have experienced God in all of them (says the theology nerd). Oh, and running laps around the church is fun and also deeply meaningful.
I lost a cousin to the Brownsville revival in Pensacola Florida like 20 years ago. Dude totally joined the cult and got rid of everyone outside of his community. Good for him lol
As a Christian I don't quite understand why I'm so attracted to your videos, but I walk away with a better understanding of what I belive and how I see the world.
@@DawsonWolin they're great aren't they!?
I agree I am a believer but yet I love this guy I enjoy his videos
Im also a believer, and he's quickly become one of my favorite channels on this platform lol.
Watching his videos strengths my faith in the gospel. Great videos I don’t skip any.
@@sky5.311 how so
Does "skibidi" count as speaking in tounges? If so then my Lutheran Sunday school class is officially baptized by the Holy Spirit.
😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂
speaking tongues is speaking a foreign language, not gibberish
@@toethegangstaI would agree, but it depends who you ask.
@@bluecat4802 no, the Bible makes it beyond clear, acts 2:4-12
To pretend like the gifts of the spirit are useless and necessary is heresy
Reformed Christian here. Your videos are super entertaining. Nice to run into an atheist thats not militant.
I’m also “reformed”
Ditto
Do you believe in double predestination?
@@Rolando_Cueva you mean like infrlapsarianism and suppralapsarienism
@@Rolando_Cueva i dont believe God needs to elect people to damnation. Simply leaving them alone is sufficient. But I do believe in the predestination of the elect. But God has desired to make some for honorable use, and some for dishonorable use via romans 9.
Hey Jared. Licensed UPCI minister here and I’ve been waiting on this video since I found your channel. Definitely want to say I appreciate your fair and honest look at us, along with all the churches you visit. As a theology nerd myself, thank you for your defense of our status as “true Christians” and explanation of our understanding of the Godhead. I’d like to get into the theological weeds but I won’t. I do, however, want to encourage you to do a follow up video, especially in light of the very end of this video and explore the problematic aspects of the UPCI.
As a relatively young minister in the organization, and having grown up in it, I see and have seen things that make me extremely uncomfortable. In short, we have to do better in so many ways and I do not believe in the cop out answer that so many give by saying “well the church is made up of people and people aren’t perfect.” I want to be part of the solution and not perpetuate the problems.
Anyway, this is one of the best channels on RUclips. Praying for you, man.
I LOVE THIS RESPONCE I too grew up in this organization and see the problems I am so happy to see a Liscensed UPCI minister not only watching Jared's video's, SEES the problems AND wants to be apart of the solution. this is the coolest thing I have EVER read!!
By whom are you licensed?
I’ve heard of Tertullian and read Against Praxeas. This Anglican priest loves these videos - thanks for sharing your experience!
I just love the "management" comments coming from you to you. 😂
As always, another great video. As a Christian, I feel like I have recently learned more about Christianity from you than I have from most Christians I know. It has been fun and refreshing. I'm always looking forward to your videos!
This is the coolest RUclips channel I have come across.
bro this channel rocks! You really care about this stuff thank you man!
That's MODALISM Patrick!
A Bethel audit would be amazing
Second
@@scottcogan8823 third
@@shonFEEZY Fourth
Do they have branches in the Carolinas?
14th
That Tai Lopez garage bit came out of left field but is much appreciated 🤣
Hi jared! Former catholic, current non-denominational/unsure ish lol. I wasn't the biggest theology nerd, but i was an apologetics nerd, and i learned it specifically to have conversations with people of other denominations, not other religions. The biggest reason for being SO specific with the Trinity (that i understood) is that one of the easiest things to miscommunicate is that God is one god in three persons, and not three different gods. I dont know if anyone has commented this, it might just be too basic 😅, but it was the first thing that came to mind.
On a separate note, i love watching your videos. I have found it to be very healing to hear someone else acknowledge questions and serious concerns with Christianity, and you do it with such grace and patience. Thank you ❤️
Thank you for covering Oneness Pentecostals. I’d LOVE to see more content on them. This was my former denomination, and it took me SO much detangling to leave; the denomination was so fear-based. But yet I still love the people there. I so appreciate how you give church groups a gracious response and try to find the best in them yet you hold them accountable and call them out. And I appreciate how deeply you think through your assessments of the churches and give an intelligent critique.
I was 4th gen oneness. Left there years ago, and am now an Orthodox Christian
@@Paisios1994glory to God ☦️
You asked why trinity was important. Its important because otherwise the whole soteriology wouldnt make sense. In oneness doctrine when Jesus died on the cross then that would imply that the whole godhood died which is clearly impossible and reflects the modalism heresy.
Also with oneness theology, they cannot logically say that God is love. The inner life of the Trinity is love, because there is perfect personal relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Without this, God needs something else other than himself to be the fullness of love -- us. He must of course, be love from eternity to eternity and thus he cannot be one person.
These are both really poor objections that both fail to hold up to trinitarian theology even.
Did the "eternal son" die on the cross? No, the flesh did. Just like when you die it is only really your flesh that dies.
To wit that the father was in the son reconciling the world unto himself.
In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
The holy spirit and father were in Christ. When you die will the holy spirit die?
Clearly not. It is the flesh alone that does a physical death.
Oneness is not jesus only. We don't believe that God only exists within Jesus, that's a characature.
For the second point, God exists outside of time. So he can be love prior to creating the object of his love.
@@coreyhodge1798 No they are not. They are perfectly fine and I will expand why
Your comparison between humans and the nature of god is simply wrong and leads to even more heresies.
The holy spirit simply dwells in humans which is correct but you cannot make this comparison with God because it leads to other problems.
Each part of the human(flesh,soul,spirit) represents a different part of which together make up the human.
But each part of the Godhead is FULLY divine and is God.
What you suggest is that at the death of Jesus the holy spirit somehow left Jesus and that the divine was seperated from Jesus at the death which is clearly wrong.
Thus your is comparison wrong and would lead to the implication that the divine died with the human.
@@coreyhodge1798 Hello, apologies if I worded my comment poorly. Yes, God is outside of time and we cannot understand, in our finite minds, a time before God created the world. However, the point I'm trying to make is that we know from the Scriptures that God "is" love (1 John 4:8). So within time he certainly loves us -- his object of love, as you pointed out -- but he must, in and of himself, "be" love independently of us.
Within the Trinity, God eternally begets his Word, the Son, as mirror image of himself. In doing so, the Father beholds the most perfect thing that could ever be -- a perfect replica of himself -- and adores the Son with all affection, and the Son does the same in return. Thus, what eternally proceeds from them is Love, which is the Spirit of God, who is also fully God, flowing forth from them both as one principle: from the Father through the Son. All three are fully God -- co-eternal, co-equal, consubstantial -- and are the same save the being unbegotten, the being begotten, and the procession.
Thus because of the relationship between the three persons, God himself can truly be said to be love on his own. Like I said, Oneness theology cannot say this because love is an inherently relational quality and saying that God is only one person cannot explain this at all. Hope that helps. God bless.
@@coreyhodge1798Hello, apologies if I worded my comment poorly. Yes, God is outside of time and we cannot understand, in our finite minds, a time before God created the world. However, the point I'm trying to make is that we know from the Scriptures that God "is" love (1 John 4:8). So within time he certainly loves us -- his object of love, as you pointed out -- but he must "be" love independently of us.
Within the Trinity, God eternally begets his Word, the Son, as mirror image of himself. In doing so, the Father beholds the most perfect thing that could ever be -- a perfect replica of himself -- and adores the Son with all affection, and the Son does the same in return. Thus, what eternally proceeds from them is Love, which is the Spirit of God, who is also fully God, flowing forth from them both as one principle: from the Father, through his beloved Son. All three are fully God -- co-eternal, co-equal, consubstantial -- and are the same save the being unbegotten, the being begotten, and the procession.
Thus because of the relationship between the three persons, God himself can truly be said to be love on his own. Like I said, Oneness theology cannot say this with only one person in the Godhead because love is an inherently relational quality. You can only say that God "loves" because a relationship exists between him and his creation, but not that he himself "is love." Hopefully that clarifies things. God bless.
Great homework for us, thanks!
Orthobro aspect.
The Orthodox are not theology nerds; they have deep theology, but they do not say it is _the_ important thing. Devotion and practice are considered to be more important. And no one says "you go to hell" or "we go to Paradise"; "you" are not finished (still is wandering and evolving) and "I" am not God to judge.
Church. This is not like "you belong to this church and you go to Paradise". We believe that, yes, there IS the work of devil. Mt 16,18, about the gates of Hades. The gates of Hades won't prevail against the Church. They will try it, hard and desperately. Just won't win if it is the Church. So - this is kind of the Orthodox view of the church - if you are outside, you are vulnerable (you don't have guarantee that the gates of Hades won't prevail _you_ personally). The church, that is all believers from all times (take a look at the iconostasis) is the safe space for you. So in essence, you do not "go to Paradise" _because_ you belong to the Church, but "if you want to go to Paradise", it is better for you to be within than outside, read Mt 16,18.
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The homework: Jn. 14:16. "_I_ will ask _the Father_ ..." two different "persons" existing at once (they communicate); and: "He will give you another Helper (allon Parakléton)", _another_ , so it's not me, and it's not Him.
Based on this (and other similar) places, it would be _much easier_ to argue for the Arianism (expressed hierarchical subordenance between the "celestial persons") rather than for their substantial "Oneness".
I would be just curious how Oneness people read this verse. :)
Hey Jared! I’m not religious but I love these videos. I found your channel because I moved to an apartment near a United House of Prayer for All People and was curious about it. Part of my extended family is very Pentecostal but I know little about it. I really appreciate your knowledge and the respect you give to every church you visit. Growing up very secular in a very religious area I was always confused about all the different nuances and why there were so many different churches. I’d never be able to do this myself, but this totally satisfies my curiosity. I also really enjoyed the Orthodox church videos, and I hope someday you might even audit some non-Christian religious services, I think that would be super interesting! Thanks for your work and looking forward to seeing more.
Thank you for posting this video 🙏
Growing up COGIC (pentecostal with similar theology to AG), recently converting to Catholicism, finding this channel has been really interesting. I love to see all perspectives and people really do themselves a disservice by not knowing arguments FOR the faith - like you mentioned, WHY is the Trinity important? Your research is really commendable and I'd love to have as much theology knowledge as you one day.
For "does someone go to hell if they're in error", there's an interesting passage; Luke 12:48 - "But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating"
So there is a certain line at which we aren't sent to Hell for our misunderstandings. But one passage before; Luke 12:47 - "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall received a severe beating". So if you SHOULD know, but ignore the truth, you won't be saved. What is the line of SHOULD knowing? It's fuzzy and best served to the Lord for that judgment. But we can speculate and take educated guesses.
The Catholics, partly as a result of Luke, have a theology of "invincible ignorance" - if you did your best to find God, but found the wrong one, there is the POSSIBILITY of being saved (from, catechism of the catholic church CCC 1793 for invincible ignorance, CCC 841 for other religions potentially finding Heaven). Of course, a misconstrued understanding of God makes it much easier to not get saved by believing teachings that go against moral law, it's but not *impossible* to go to heaven under those conditions. Of course, if you started with a correct understanding and went to a misunderstanding, then it's much harder to claim *invincible* ignorance.
Anyway, that's my ramblings from someone who is trying to delve deeper into Christianity. You make great content so keep it up :D
Bingo!
LOVE your videos!!! So Informative, and much appreciated!
I’m generally skeptical of churches who install pastors with little to no theological training and preach what they feel “god lays on their heart” that particular day.
Lately I've been very curious about Unitarian theology, glad to see you covering the topic Jared!
Well, he didn’t really cover Unitarian theology. He covered, very briefly, some aspects of Oneness theology which is different.
The oneness crowd actually pushes back against Unitarian theology.
Basically, the oneness crowd would say that Jesus is God, while Unitarians would reject that belief.
In short, the main objection the oneness crowd has with trinitarian theology is over the use of language. They argue that “three persons” results in three Gods.
Instead, the oneness crowd prefers the language of “manifestation”. So rather than teaching multiple persons of God, they would argue that we’re looking at manifestations of God.
@@zekdom Ohhh okay that makes a lot of sense, thanks!
The theology of Oneness Pentecostalism is called Modalism. They believe that the son and the father are same. Modalism is similar to Unitarianism in the sense that both reject the doctrine of the trinity. Unitarians on the other hand simply believe that Jesus is a man, the messiah and the son of God like the bible says many times. You could think of Unitarianism as being on one side (Jesus is a man) and Modalism on the other (Jesus is God) with Trinitarianism in the middle (Jesus is both man and God).
@paulballister1 thanks for clarifying!
Videos just keep getting better and better
Hey friend, just want to say I very much enjoy your channel and I thank you for it!
I can't wait for you to investigate deeper the theological reasons behind the splits between the Oriental and then Catholic & Orthodox churches because baby it's ALL in the details of the trinity & christology (and of course the broader socio-political context) but remember a primary point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox to this day is whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father or the Father & the Son together. Loved this video. Just found your channel and have been binging the past week. As cradle Catholic, to atheist, to theist, to almost hindu back to Catholic this is my jam.
I really enjoyed this video. I've watched a lot of them, but this one was amazing. Loved the explanation of the Trinity.
What the… was not expecting to hear such profound understanding, reason, compassion and shared sentiments from an atheist.
Good work bro. Ironically, I feel believers really need to hear your takes. Keep up the good work man ❤
I am Orthodox. The average EvangelicL Protestant Christian doesn't know the history of why we believe what we believe mainly because they aren't being taught that in their churches. Church history for Protestants is usually the history of their denomination. I sat in on a class at a small Pentacostal bible college once and the instructor ,(a Pentecostal minister) mentioned "The Great Darkness" in class. I raised my hand and asked him what he meant by the Great Darkness. He told me "You know, the time between Constantine and Martin Luther!". Basically 1200 years of important church history are of no importance to them.
16:52 "if you're watching this video, youre probably above the norm" TY the algorithm brought me here 😄👍 you make great content keep going
I really enjoyed your dialogue in this video. I enjoyed many of your videos since i discovered you last night. Since I come from a Oneness background, I really appreciate you.
I love you and I love your videos, Jared!
I was part of a AG ministry in college. Definitely a lot of disturbing and misguided worship, but there was also such a healthy emphasis on the move of God and being active as the church. The people I interacted with were very welcoming to everyone and did a great job of meeting needs in the community. I'd rather congregate with those who have poor theology but are full of passion than a group of theologically sound people who are dead in their faith.
Every part of the church has their strengths and weaknesses. Glad to hear your takes.
Jared. I love you! Thank you for your hilarious and insightful content❤
Interesting channel, man. Loved the editing.
The LDS not believing in the trinity is the same reason we are excluded from the Christianity club
Love your videos! ♥From another former Assemblies of God and current Atheist. Feeding the algorithm
I'm so glad you quoted the "That's modalism, Patrick!!" because I am *also* incapable of thinking of Trinitarian heresies without that popping into my head.
Re: beliefs about the Trinity: See, this is why I'm glad I'm a universalist. I cannot imagine that God decides whether to save us or not depending on whether we can define the Trinity correctly. (Besides, the Trinity is A Mystery, and that's fine with me.)
Re: did the Holy Spirit speak to him: That one is always tricky. I mean, I've had some religious experiences that felt like God speaking to me. But I also know (and I know YOU know) that human brains are good at seeing/hearing/feeling things that aren't there. So the thing I always come back to is: is this helping me love God and my neighbor? Because it sounds like what he experienced *did*. In which case it *doesn't matter* (to me!) whether the theology is sound or not. He felt a genuine experience with God's love and that's all that matters.
The thing you're saying at 25:40 or so is what I keep saying!!! Whether someone is a universalist or not, the fact is, if you can't explain it to a reasonable five-year-old, there's no fucking way it's necessary to our salvation. Because otherwise God's just a dick and unworthy of worship.
The Trinity is said to be a mystery beyond human reasoning, impossible for us to understand or explain. It is the biggest obstacle to becoming a Christian and knowing God, is understanding the Trinity. Yet, the Trinity is simple and very easy to understand, if you know one thing.
Jesus said; “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; . . .” (John 7:16-18)
How can it not be from Jesus, if he is part of a Trinity?
Jesus’ authority to forgive sins was given to him by God.
“However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins-” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” And he got up and went to his home. When the crowds saw this, they were struck with fear, and they glorified God, who gave such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:6-8)
Did Jesus Deny Being God in Mark 10:18? Yes, he did.
““Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)
Jesus was referring to what the OT stated, “For you, O Jehovah, are good . . .” (Psalm 86:5)
Jesus states that his Father is his God, Jesus worships his Father as God.
“Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”” (John 20:17)
You don’t worship someone you are equal to, nor do you worship yourself. If this was true, then why does the Father never worship or pray to Jesus?
The Father has authority over Jesus just as a husband has authority over his wife.
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
If you have a head or boss, you are not equal to them. How does this work with Jesus?
Jesus will subject himself to his Father.
“But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” (1 Corinthians 15:28)
If you subject yourself to someone’s authority, you are not equal in authority to them. How can two members of the Trinity have different levels of authority, while the third member, the Holy Spirit seems to have none and is never even pictured as having a body?
Can Jesus be both God and the mediatory between God and men?
“. . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all-. . .” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6)
“. . .Now there is no mediator when just one person is involved, but God is only one.” (Galatians 3:20)
Why did Paul write both verses? Why did he not explain it in light of the Trinity?
These are very complex questions with a very simple answer that is so obvious once you know it. This answer is staring you in the face it is so simple. Just think about it, what did a Jew have to accept and believe to become a Christian? It was only one thing.
“Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins,. . .” (Acts 2:38) “. . .God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”” (Acts 2:36)
All a Jew had to do was accept Jesus as the promised messiah. The word ‘messiah’ means anointed, as in anointed to become king. The Jews just had to accept Jesus as the king in the kingdom promised by God. They did not have to learn about or believe in the Trinity. Which is why Jesus never gave a sermon on the Trinity, why he never even mentioned it or explained it. No one in the Bible ever does. The Trinity is an impossible mystery until you unlock the secret of it, that makes it very easy to understand, the Trinity is a lie. It is a false doctrine. That is why it is not in the Bible. Why would the Bible explain something that doesn’t exist?
Once you understand this simple solution to the mystery of the Trinity, it is like the scales falling from Paul’s eyes after he accepted Jesus as the promised messiah. With this understanding, it makes understanding God and scripture so much clearer and easier. Suddenly it is like you can see for the first time and everything makes sense when unsolvable mysteries beyond human understanding suddenly pop like a soap bubble and you wonder why you didn’t see it sooner.
Former UPCI Pastor here, The Oneness came out of the AG, manyAG ministers were rebaptized in Jesus name at the Formation and both F,S,HS Baptism and Jesus name Baptismal formula were tolerated. The old periodicals from that time are online and for the first few years they wrote a statement of Toleration for both views were placed at the beginning of each issue. I have found many Trinitarian Pastors are open to receiving people from a Oneness past without any rebaptism or recantation.The,”they are not Christian, comes primarily from Cath/Ortho and Calvinistic Reformed. There are many independent churches in Appalachia that are made up of both sides. The AG did not require the ministers that left for Oneness to be rebaptized after they returned to the AG they just took them back.
This is a great discussion on heresy and orthodoxy while exploring those ramifications
Great video !
Why would you release the Sunday morning!? Where do you think we all are!?
😂😂❤❤
I’m a Catholic convert that loves your videos
Same! I was raised agnostic and converted to Catholicism. His videos are so interesting
Same this end. Grew up in the Church of England so it doesn’t feel vastly different but just a lot more consistent when you travel between parishes
Augh fine I’ll subscribe to your awesome channel
(All jokes aside, your vids keep popping up on my feed and as a deconstructed pentecostal fundamentalist I’m loving them)
Dude I just love the way you do your videos… you’re so good at calling us out as Christians but in such a way that reflects the character of Jesus. Like we as Christians should strive to become more and more like Jesus, so with that mindset, would Jesus deny the faith of an entire theological sect because of one different belief? I mean yeah he might go flip some tables and correct them, but that’s on Jesus to figure out, not us. Only God decides who goes to heaven and who doesn’t, so it’s not our job to argue about it or shun each other based on theological differences, our job is to love our neighbors.
I get what you're trying to say, but I must disagree. Jesus said that people wouldn't enter heaven in his words in John 8:24 "Because you do not believe I am He, you will die in your sins." Jesus did judge others over theological differences and said they would be going to hell. I also say this as a former Oneness Pentecostal. Paul says in Galatians 1:8 that if someone preaches a false gospel, they are anathema. The Oneness Pentecostals preach something completely different to historic Christianity.
Another thing, how can you deny who God is, and say he's something else, and say they're the same thing? We deny Mormons are christians with good reason, why are the Oneness Pentecostals getting the pass? They take the son, the eternal creator, and demote him to a mere human nature that contains the divine nature.
Jesus also called people to correct teaching if it was wrong.
@@Sermonator9000 they read the same Gospels that we read.
The Gnostics are the ones who preach a different Gospel.
@@Sermonator9000 I have to agree with @Kaykay-bzirf on this one. Most Christian denominations and churches hold the same bible just emphasize different aspects of the same core belief in Jesus. We deny Mormons because they add their own "holy book" on top of the bible as canon. Oneness Pentecostals on the other hand believe in the same bible as any other bible believing christians do and (at least to my knowledge) don't add any other books on top of it. On a sidenote I would actually go as far as to say that even Mormons can be saved. We deny them for their doctrine but that doesn't mean they can't be saved by their belief in Jesus.
Anyway like Heliocentric pointed out in the video, to think that everyone would have to hold the exact same nuanced and educated understanding of Jesus Christ to be saved is quite a lot to ask especially in light of passages like 1.Tim 2:3-4. Suppose Oneness Pentecostalism was right and all the other churches were damned for their beliefs, how many true believers would that leave us with?
@@paulballister1 Okay, let me ask you then. Muslims believe in Jesus, are they saved? Now sure, they deny his deity and say he's just a prophet, but they believe in Jesus right? Mormons sure do believe in Jesus right?! Oh wait, the Jesus they're talking about is Satan's brother, and is a non-eternal being. Hindus believe in Jesus! But oh wait, they think he's one God among many. How far can you get from the Jesus of the Bible and still be saved? Jesus isn't a created being, he is the great I am. Saying he's just a flesh nature that the father inhabits, or he's just a human prophet, or one God among many doesn't get to that.
Another great video from a fellow theology nerd. Thank you. 🙏
Good theological discussion (keeping the trinitarian-unitarian-modalist conversation in perspective - great work! - and with a well-deserved shout-out to Lutheran Satire).
@07:51 Looking forward to your Christian Science church audit. :)
(I’m a regular visitor to a sister church in the New Thought Movement, “Unity Church”).
@3:35 I agree! I think the architecture speaks volumes. lex orandi lex credendi , I once got to tour an orthodox church in my home town which was out of this world. I felt like I had walked into heaven.
one of my favorite videos of yours yet! grew up Methodist, now an eclectic witch who believes in divinity, but savors the mystery of it. I'm a little shocked at how many people in your comments are simply condemning this theology without showing any sign of engaging with the questions around it that you so eloquently posed in your video. I will never understand having 100% certainty about a belief that damns others.
keep up the good work, Jared! exjwpanda is a great channel if you haven't seen his stuff yet. I especially recommend his Caleb and Sophia videos- animated series for witness kids. looking forward to your continued JW learning, and I hope you end up going to another House of Prayer for All People! I used to live right near the one in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, and it WAS FASCINATING to see the disparity between your two experiences with their congregations. it's so refreshing to hear Christianity discussed in a compassionate and earnest way within a nonbelieving paradigm. love your stuff, man!
13:44 That’s Arianism, Patrick!!
Seriously, though, as a Catholic, I really appreciate your videos and respect the way you approach everything.
I think this is precisely why doctrine should be decerned not on an individual level but as a church body rooted in tradition.
Hey Jared! I’m a believer and a theology nerd too lol I gotta say, your channel is fascinating. I love the admiration you have for complex theological stances. I can share in the awe of how beautiful they can be. I have been wondering what’s your stance on walking by faith and not by sight? What’s your favorite book of the Bible and why? Okay hoping you reply ☺️✌🏼
Being an OP myself, it is refreshing to hear someone’s thoughts about it outside the Christian sphere! GOD bless!
Hey my name is thalon Drake I go to the church your talking about I’m also the nephew of the pastor and I just wanna say thank you for being so respectful to my uncle pastor and to my church I really appreciate this not a lot of atheists are nice to me or my church again thank you so much
Physics nerd here telling you the heat of the star and the light of the star are the same and they _are_ the mass of the star; since mass and energy are convertable, the electromagnetic energy came from the mass defect of nuclear reactions; while optical light is even "warmer" (takes more energy) than the infrared light (warmth), being on a continuum that is dissected only because of the sensitivity ranges of our different sensors.
Having trolling made complete for today, thanks for the content, the channel is great, I am about to see al your vids so far and follow you in the future.
I think a great deal of vitriol stems from missing the point of the Christian life. There’s a lot of focus on ‘being saved.’ Salvation is our hope, not our purpose. Our purpose is to become like God. If one believes in Oneness Doctrine, he does not know the God he is supposed to become like.
Even though the word trinity is not used within the first few hundred years of the church, the concept was presented throughout Scripture, including the Old Testament, and ancient verbal traditions. It was, also, one of the first things elucidated in Church history, at the first ecumenical council.
Beyond that, though, there are logical arguments for the trinity as well-that opens a bunch of cans of worms, though, what with essence/energy distinctions, uncreated energies (particularly love) needing a community to flow within and out of, etc. So I don’t want to get into all of that here in a comment.
I agree with your resistance to holding the laity to the same standard as the clergy and/or teachers, but the pastor at that church, inasmuch as Protestants have clergy, is the clergy and should have a basic knowledge of history and theology. Seeking cannot be understood as feeling a thing. We all feel all kinds of things-these feelings don’t even have to come from the demons because we all have our passions that control us to varying degrees. The passions come from habits, and habits are more harmful than any demon. To truly seek, does not mean to feel. Seeking implies action, work, some form of asceticism. When we hear the still small voice of God, we ought to test it, not because God deceives, but because we deceive ourselves.
We will be held accountable for the breadth and depth of our knowledge, so I will not make claims of salvation, but I do know we are all sick and the medicine is the sacraments of the ancient, holy, apostolic Church.
the idea that failure to assent to complex philosophical propositions makes a person worthy of endless suffering is the main reason I'm not a christian tbh
Good news for you is that you do not need to know complex philosophical propositions but instead repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your personal Lord & saviour, live a life denying yourself and following him. If you choose not to then you choose not to partake in the promise of eternal life given by God through faith and obedience in his son. There is no endless suffering, just annihilation for all who do not wish to be adopted into God's family. We all must choose. God bless
I'd argue that making up things and teaching them to others that are wrong would have that result. But believing yourself in a heresy that someone else made up isn't an automatic ticket to Hell. "Invincible Ignorance" as I commented elsewhere here.
To me that thing is how they will argue incessantly about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin', as if they had any, much less sufficient evidence to adjudicate between explanations.
God is one, God is three, blah blah.
Humanity has been using logic and 0 evidence to discuss the universe for thousands of years, and it got us nowhere. Then in a few hundred, gathering evidence, we were able to jump from 1 to 8 billion leaving better lives than ever. Our understanding of Creation has only prospered when we ditched 'pure' philosophy, and acquired evidence.
To expect something else from arguing about God's nature, while having even less evidence is sheer folly. Much less to discount Christians from Christianity because they believe a slightly altered version of something, we can't possibly know because of a dearth of evidence, is the same as those philosophers who were arguing whether there's 4 or 5 elements that make up everything.
If you're really interested to know how and why correct Trinitarian theology is necessary to a correct understanding of soteriology, then you ought to reach out to Jay Dyer and talk to him about it. He'll help you understand why correct Trinitarian theology (i.e. Cappadocian Trinitarianism) is absolutely necessary for a correct understanding of soteriology. This is something that Protestants usually don't consider since they usually start with soteriology first and then address Trinitarianism almost as an afterthought. Orthodox theology has always began with the Trinity first to understand everything else, whether it's soteriology, ecclesiology, the nature of man, etc.
Oneness Pentecostal Youth Pastor here!! So glad you visited one of our services! Thank you for being gracious to us in your approach- I have grown up in the UPCI and am grateful for it.
I enjoy your videos. I have listened to hours of atheistic arguments trying to make sure I know the best arguments and how to interact honestly with them. I enjoy teaching apologetics to young people.
Glad to still be Holy Ghost filled and serving the Lord by the grace of God.
May God guide you on your journey.
Also, if you want to see some aisle running come to church with me sometime!
The Trinity rules turn to trinitarianism 🙏 (i say in love)
@@Eristic_Love Didn't engage with him but told him to do something. You even posted a good comment in this video, what happened?
And thank you for the new app!😮
Great video , God bless !
As an LDS…Mormon…I’m loving this content.
Having read the Bible cover to cover over the passed 50 years, you are, without a doubt, my favorite atheist!! Love you!
From an orthodox perspective when it comes to to revelation and the Holy Spirit guiding people. We don’t think that people can’t be led or that every “spiritual communication” is from god or from the devil. We should discern it with a priest and it shouldn’t be in contradiction of another teaching. Essentially you should discern these feelings but you shouldn’t dwell on them forever or let them guide you everywhere by themselves. I hope I explained this well.
That makes sense, but its still hard to grapple with stories where someone (like pastor Kenny in this video) earnestly seeks God, prays fervently about these subjects, and comes to a different conclusion than christians who are supposedly more orthodox. Because if someone earnestly sought God why would they be led in error?
@@TheJoeschmoe777Because you can’t trust what a person says. He could be lying, he could be deceiving himself, he could be praying in vain due to a plethora of things, pride, grieving the Holy Spirit etc
But ultimately he somehow resisted the Holy Spirit. People will reject things they know are the truth for literally decades before finally submitting to the Holy Spirit. So he probably has presuppositions that he prays for God to “ confirm “ and he doesn’t so the man convinces himself that God in fact did contradict all previous revelation, which is insane…
@@vladgor4099 That's a loooot of assumptions there, man. Sure, he could be lying, deceiving himself, praying in vain, and all these other things. But he also could be earnestly seeking the truth. Who are we to look into this mans heart and say he wasn't?
@@TheJoeschmoe777 Did you actually read what i said to the end
Which is why you never make a spiritual decision by yourself. As it can be easy to take skin thing and go all Joseph Smith with it. You must be careful and not be too eager to chase something until you understand it and have it explained to you. You also should be able to explain it and biblically justify it to others.
I go to church on Saturdays. I would love to see you go to an Adventist church
I enjoy your videos. I worked in the UPCI and attended one of their Bible colleges. I would love to converse with you on this topic.
we are judged according to what we know - Orthodox here ( of course we have a different definition of salvation) but any way great video!
Everything I know about the Trinity, I learned from LutheranSatire's "St Patrick's Bad Analogies."
I absolutely love your energy; positive athiest with a penchant for shitposting! Keep it up man
Thanks I love your videos and believe you are doing good works no matter your beliefs
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. - Matthew 7:16-18
That's how I judge what spirit I am listening to, lol
You're awesome, Jared!! Keep teaching kindness and genuine interest in humility! You're basically teaching people to be slow to judge and to find find human connection again ❤️
Love these videos
I don’t comment much on RUclips at all so idk how this works here but I grew up in a Oneness Pentecostal church in Detroit, MI. I’ve spent the last two years researching it a lot (which is presumably why your video just popped up on my TL) so I would love to engage with your (or your followers) if there are real questions to be answered. For starters, I would say that the primary issue with OP and most Charismatic denominations is that they require an inconsistent approach to reading and interpreting Scripture. For example, it doesn’t take any theological gymnastics to arrive to support for the Trinity. One can simply spend 15 minutes in the gospel of John and consider the use of language (basic pronouns, verbs, perspective, etc.) by Jesus and God to plainly see a differentiation between the two. The Oneness scholar must contort the language and themes of the NT and OT (i.e. the Angel of the Lord clearly being the Second Person) to maintain his belief system. It also does not hold up against the way Greek is written. The Greek language is very, very specific on how they address persons so that has to be discarded as well.
That’s a long example but the primary point is that OPs have to dismiss basic logic and grammar to support their beliefs. And while it is very scary to consider the consequences, at the end of the day it’s either God or it’s not. And then it becomes a question on whether or not God is asking us to suspend rationale in order to support our beliefs.
Hey Jared, I love your content! If you're ever in the twin cities area, you should stop by the cathedral of St. paul. It's a gorgeous building and luckily the homilies are usually better then the last catholic mass you went to 😅
Love the Orthodox icon usage! ❤
I’m a Oneness Pentecostal. Thank you for conducting an honest analysis and attending the church with an open mind. It’s always good for us to have these discussions and foster understanding and dialogue among different faiths, denominations, and traditions. I know the UPC isn’t perfect at all (believe me, I criticize it from within all the time), but it really is nice to have a non-OP person give an honest account rather than start from a place of stigma. I’ve considered trinitarianism both textually and historically, and I still think it’s mistaken. But like the pastor, I don’t profess to be the Judge, nor do I discount the experiences Trinitarians have with God. We’re all trying to grow in faith, and these discussions help us all to explore the Scriptures and find Truth. Once again, thank you, and I’m excited to watch more videos on your channel.
Okay, only one slight nitpicky beef.
I wouldn’t say we think Trinitarians “secretly” believe in three gods while processing one. That implies a knowing intent of believing in three gods. I don’t know anyone who has that view. Rather, it’s more accurate to say that we believe Trinitarians often unintentionally speak in terms that-taken to their logical conclusion-can tend into tritheism. Personally, I take everyone at their word, that they believe in one god in good faith. In fact, that good faith understanding allows us to start from a place of commonality when we discuss the nature of a shared belief system: the proposition that only one God exists.
Well I’m not sure how I found this, but you have a new subscriber.
Fan since your JW Shunning Video. Ex-JW here that loves yoir work! Music aswell 🤘
Fellow ex-JW here too. I can't help but think all the arguments we were fed against the Trinity were actually against Modalism.
Great video again Jared
When I was at Presbyterian Church of America I was subbing for the kids pull-out Bible class. Supposed to teach the Trinity. The lesson plan of this curriculum was to give that diagram in your thumb nail to the kids and have them color it. To explain that NO, the trinity is NOT like a shamrock. Or like the 3 states of water. Or like an egg. These were 4 & 5 year olds 😑 I guess the geniuses who wrote the curriculum knew their theology well enough but never heard of the pre-operational stage of child development.
The idea someone gets into heaven or not based on a given theological premise is absurd.
Trinitarian Pentacostal here 🫶 love your videos ❤❤❤
I'm low key hoping Jared would pop up at my church one day lol What a video that'll be 🤣
Hi Jared! UPCI person here. :)
Enjoyed the video.
I did want to make a quick statement concerning our view of the Godhead. While yes, a lot of Oneness doctrine appears as Modalism, and a lot of detractors call us such, I would argue that this is not an accurate representation of Oneness doctrine.
Monarchian Modalism would be a more accurate term.
What’s the difference? Modes.
Modalism teaches that God “changes modes”. That He was first the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Ghost (or Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Ghost in regeneration). Oneness, however stands more upon the teaching of simultaneousism, in the Godhead. That God is the Father, was made manifest in the Son, and is the Spirit, with no separation of “modes”.
(I hope this makes sense. But you appear intelligent enough to catch the difference here! lol)
Love the video and fair representation of us :)
Also wanted to add, personally I’m not on the side of trinitarians at not saved, merely upon their belief of the Godhead. My biggest issue would be in the baptism they receive. Whether or not the name of Jesus was spoken over them.
God is the ultimate judge.
Also, the UPCI is known for its crazy worship. Visit many and you’ll see plenty of aisle runnings!
Appreciate the explanation, thx.
I absolutely love that people are arguing about the Trinity with an atheist who is a Pentecostalism apostate reviewing a non-Trinitarian church. Helio, being somewhat of an expert on the Trinity, not only does your average churchgoer not have a command of the Trinity, but 90% of ministers/pastors don’t either. As an ex-JW I have been enjoying your content since you attended a KH. You are so even handed and reasonable, and I deeply appreciate your perspective as one who left Pentecostalism.
Hey I am an ex jw and still trying to get my head around the trinity. I believe in God but not JW but can’t work out which denomination I belong to. And of course I don’t need I belong to any but I want a community so would like to find one that by and large aligns with my beliefs. I’m Scotland we have baptists (they are nothing like American ones) and I like my local one as they are a good community , have extra curricular unlike JW it was the watchtower all day long and nothing else. They don’t believe in infant baptism which I do not but can’t get my head round the trinity or hell. So not sure what to do. I may just tour a few churches and slot myself in. Sounds like fun.
@@sherylmarshall1444 I am a non trinitarian non JW Christian, you don't have to believe in either. Just be a disciple of Christ, that's good enough for him. The doctrine of the trinity and hell as a place of eternal torment are indeed unbiblical.
@@malarkey_detected thank you 🙏
@@sherylmarshall1444 you're most welcome. God bless you and guide you always 🙏🏻
@@malarkey_detected the trinity is indeed biblical
100% agree with you in this video! Wow, never thought I would say that to an atheist.
I love diving into Christians who believe differently than mainstream. It shows theres so much complexity and nuance in faith even within the same religion. Its a lot easier to do it as an atheist because we dont have the "youre not a true Christian" mindset.
The biggest issue at this point is that people get downright spiteful and mean when you don’t fully agree with them. I can say that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and believe fully in my heart that God raised him from the dead and made him Christ and Lord just like the scriptures tell me is required for my salvation, but then I get a Trinitarian telling me that I’m a heretic and going to hell because I believe that Yahweh is God alone and there is no other like him and Jesus is he Son who has been given all authority. And I grew up fully accepting the Trinity until I was challenged to really read the scriptures and I don’t see it without some exhausting mental gymnastics to make it appear in scripture.
Doesn’t matter that I love Jesus more than I ever have in my life. That I’m seeking him more than I ever have. According to Trinitarians I’m just a heretic. And I’m not a Oneness. I’m a biblical Unitarian. And believe me, I would embrace the Trinity again if I could see it in the whole of scripture, it sure would make life easier. But I’m looking to worship God in spirit and truth, not tradition.
@@wombatedge That really sucks. Jesus said to love and pray for our enemies and to judge not. I definitely don't remember him saying to be hateful against those who believe in a different doctrine of the Trinity. Understanding the Bible and belief and non belief is so personal. I think when I was a christian I would have first thought you're wrong instead of wanting to hear you or want to learn. I think people will just believe what their church or pastor says instead of trying to read the Bible or change their minds. I think some people are just assholes regardless.
@jonathanfarquhar It really is a shame. Most people are way more concerned about being right and proving others wrong that truly seeking out truth. And that’s a scary thing.
@@wombatedgeYou evidently see the same problem I have always seen with all the "inities" and "isms" and "itarians" they have some very valid scriptural issues.
I have finally found a solution I'm happy with that is consistent and coherent with all the language. I call it Divine Traducionism, but if you can think of a better name I'm open to suggestions.
The short story is that I was looking at Hebrews 7 where Paul says Levi was, so to speak, in Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek. I had always been told the "so to speak" meant he was just making an analogy, but that didn't make sense if the argument was to actually prove the point that Jesus was a superior high priest in the typology of Melchizedek without genealogy.
Hmmm ... could I actually restate this as LEVI WAS ABRAHAM AND WITH ABRAHAM? Sounds like John 1:1. Did the "so to speak" actually mean that Levi just wasn't consciously aware that he was paying the tithes to Melchizedek while being actually in Abraham's loins? After all that's what Paul says and he uses the argument to prove the point, so his audience must have already believed that Levi was Abraham and with Abraham, otherwise Paul would have had to prove that point first.
So, I googled something like "what did 1st century Jews believe about the origin of souls". This pulled up the Traducionism V Creatianism debate which happened after Nicea. Turns out the vast majority of Christians believed in the Traducion origin of souls, that were all in Adam. This "soul" was passed on to us "genetically" through the seed that forms the blood and the life is in the blood. The verses that seem to be talking about the creatian of a new soul are just as easily read as the molding of the individual personality from the "soul stuff" inherited.
So, I asked myself, if this is what they believe about a normal human soul then how would they interpret the soul that exists from a virgin birth? It was God and was with God in the beginning, just like Levi was Abraham and with Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek and we were Adam and with Adam in Eden.
Now, I see this Divine Traducionism uses all the different terms and language we have in the different models in a very simple way. Blood comes from the Father so Jesus is genetically and ethnically divine. This is why 1 John 5 says that the blood TESTIFIES that Jesus is the son of God, just like a paternity blood test.
Have you gone through the Bart Erham wormhole yet? Christian turned atheist turned biblical scholar, professor and author. He has a lot of interesting things to say about what the Bible actually teaches about the trinity
He was Evangelical so his theology and christology was cooked to begin with unfortunately which shows in what he believes
But even Bart will openly admit and has on many occasions said the bible does teach the trinity and that Jesus did believe he was God and so did the apostles
@@makeytgreatagain6256 that’s not correct. For anyone reading, and for yourself if you’re engaging in good faith, just Google bart erhman and the trinity. He has ample videos and blog posts he has dedicated to the subject. It’s quite a complicated and nuanced subject. Ultimately these are some of his main points, that he states clearly, over and over again:
Jesus never claims to be God outside the Gospel of John. And John isn’t taken as historical because it was written so many years after Jesus was on earth and the other gospels. Nearly ALL scholars agree with him about how problematic the book of John is.
Copied directly from Bart’s blog on the subject: (also see his book, misquoting Jesus)
“Jesus himself did not claim to be a divine being and his earthly followers did not see him as divine… There is nowhere in Bible that we have an explicit reference to the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, and the three are actually one. With an exception. The doctrine of the Trinity DOES seem to be explicitly taught (or nearly explicitly taught) in 1 John 5:7… The Gospel of John is extremely important for understanding where the doctrine of the Trinity came from. I should stress: the Trinity does not appear in the Gospel - nowhere does the Gospel say that there are three persons, all distinct from one another, all of them equally God, and yet there is only one God. That, in a nutshell is the doctrine of the Trinity. But even though the Gospel does not express the doctrine (either does any other book of the NT), the book could later be mined by those who wanted to find support for it. To that end, no passage could be more important than John…
According to Erham, 1 John 5:7 is a textual corruption, which was added later, and therefore not a part of what John originally wrote.
gotta make sure to sneak that BoTW cooking music in however you can. @12:30
Thanks for reminding me of Lutheran satire channel - I will be using some of his stuff this week in my class.. (Yes I teach theology at a classical school) and oh yeah, you’re on tap for fall semester-and they will be forced to subscribe.
Fine lol you have a new subscriber😂 . Been watching for a while, Christian here. But I like your video. I use them for bible study. They challenge me to go deeper in my walk and knowledge of God.
This reminds me of the sermon from Dr. Michael Heiser - "The True Meaning of the Gospel". He talks about how salvation isn't earned through good works, but it also not earned through special knowledge. It's through trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation. That's it
Love the vibes and the comedy, I am a Christian and sincerely believe in Christ as Savior and God. I will be looking for your new vids, good stuff. Also I hail from Charlotte, NC myself. Nice to see RUclipsrs from there.
As an Orthodox Christian I can say that salvation is much more about being part of the Church which is where God is wholly present and hence the way of life that leads to salvation is more apparent but even there, salvation isn’t guaranteed (but that’s a separate topic). God can save people outside of the Church if He so chooses and given that God is all good we have a hope that all will be saved but we also know that God is Just and won’t let people literally get away with murder either. It’s about what has been revealed to you as true and what you did with it. If you aren’t convinced a thing is true, I don’t think God is going to judge you for not accepting a thing you legitimately thought to be false.
We would say a person who believes in the Trinity would have greater access to the mysteries of salvation but would also have greater responsibility because of that access. Salvation is not promised to Orthodox Christians simply because they are Orthodox. It’s much more messy then the clean cut western Christian traditions would like to adjudicate about it.
As a former Jehovah's Witness, the Trinity is one thing i cannot understand why it has the fervor that it does. It feels like a cult all on it's own. The main support i hear for it is extra biblical and personal testimony and philosophy. Jesus thought it was unthinkable to put himself at the same level as God, so how can people insist they are equal?
It actually does come right from the pages of scripture. Beginning in Mark chapter 1 verses 1-3: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'Behold I send my messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way; the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight." (LSB). The quotations from Isaiah and Malachi are referring to Yahweh. Malachi 3:1 ESV: "Behold I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple: and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says The LORD (Yahweh) of hosts." The prophecy from Yahweh of hosts is saying that *He* will come to His temple, the messenger being John the Baptist.
Isaiah 40:3 ESV which Mark is also quoting says "A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD (Yahweh); make straight a desert a highway for our God." So the passages Mark begins his gospel with are about Yahweh (Jehovah, the LORD), coming to His temple.
Jesus absolute thought He was on the same level as God, in John 17 during the High Priestly Prayer, Jesus says this: "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5 LSB), Jesus Himself believed that He shared the same glory with the Father before the foundations of the world. Hebrews as well says this about Jesus in chapter 1: "But of the Son He (The Father) says, 'Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish but You remain; and they all will wear out like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end." (Hebrews 1:8-12 LSB) The old testament passage towards the end, "You, Lord..." is Psalm 102 which at the beginning of the Psalm the author says "O Yahweh, hear my prayer! And let my cry for help come to You." (Psalm 102:1 LSB) The direct context of this Psalm is a prayer to Yahweh where the psalmist says that He created everything and is unchanging. The author of Hebrews through Divine Inspiration says that contextually this is applied to The Son, Jesus.
The Trinity is entirely biblical, Paul uses the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4 to refer to both The Father and The Son in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Philippians 2 is a creed that says Jesus existed in the form of God and was made into the likeness of men. John 10:30-33 shows that Jesus was saying that He is God. And yes, I know the JW comeback of "that's just what the Jews thought." But that is *not what the text says* the text says "You, being a man, make Yourself God." That statement *definitively* in the eyes of John who was disciple writing the book, is Jesus declaring His Deity. It's how He can call Himself the "Good Shepherd" which comes from Psalm 23, He is the True Vine from Jeremiah 2:21, I could keep going. The point is, the Trinity is exclusively found in the Bible. Not even mentioning Old Testament passages concerning the Angel of Yahweh in Genesis 16, 22, 48:15-16, Exodus 3, Joshua, Judges etc.
Can you please do more videos on the UPCI!!
I think about the accessibility of “proper,” fully informed Christianity a lot since deconstructing. My mom doesn’t understand any of this, and she’s been a committed Christian for decades. The substance of the belief of her and her peers is anecdotal.
I would be curious to hear your thoughts in response to some of the Cultish podcast episodes on the UPCI and other denominations you’ve covered.
Hey Jared, how would one go about making a church visit suggestion? As a former “member” of this church, I believe it’s a cult and have spoken out publicly about it, but to no avail. I would love to get your wonderfully honest opinion about it.
Hey Helio, if you’re ever in Iowa I have a church you could check out:
Cornerstone World Outreach in Sioux City.
Extremely cult-y vibes. Members must agree to the Church Bylaws, which are over 100 pages in length. Reading through the bylaws reveals the pastor of CWO has carefully insulated his power, ensuring he can’t be removed even if he breaks the law, and that the church will owe him a hefty payout when he finally retires. Doesn’t help that every major leadership role in the church is held by a member of his family. Plus all the recordings of their messages are hidden behind ‘Members Only’ access.
Very strange characteristics for a church. Worth checking it out IMO.
Love it when you talked about dismissiveness that others have toward people who aren't like themselves theologically. It is awful. Absolutely awful. I have found myself in three denominations that are extremely different from one another, I have attended church in two more denominations that are different than those, but yet I have experienced God in all of them (says the theology nerd). Oh, and running laps around the church is fun and also deeply meaningful.
I lost a cousin to the Brownsville revival in Pensacola Florida like 20 years ago. Dude totally joined the cult and got rid of everyone outside of his community. Good for him lol
As a oneness pentecostal myself im glad this video showed up and i enjoyed it.