Blacksmithing Why Cant You Forge Tungsten Carbide
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2015
- So can you forge Tungsten Carbide? The internet says no... and in this video you will see what happens when I try to... Can you forge tungsten carbide? I certainly can't!
![Gunna - one of wun [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w_JtBYqMgk8/mqdefault.jpg)
you can actually, but you have to be lvl 45.
Lvl 45 mob boss ?
Vibranium lvl 100 and Adamantium lvl 200 but god lvl 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
You need to complete a quest and obtain the untrade-able hammer.
@@isackhernandez3691 yes at the level i just said xDDD
nail this
Tungsten carbide (WC) is a ceramic. For tool applications it is powder-sintered using cobalt as a binding/sintering agent (upwards of 10wt%). This means that basically the small powder grains of tungsten carbide are being held together by a cobalt intergranular phase (you can think of it as a composite with cobalt being the matrix and the WC grains being the reinforcing phase).
At high temps the cobalt weakens way before the WC does. When smacked like that with a hammer, this allows for fracture to occur intergranularly (because the cobalt is weakened). So what you saw after the piece cooled was a greenish Cobalt(II)Oxide layer.
Thanks
I looked up "ceramic" and part of the definition is that it's non-metallic. Since tungsten is a metal, tungsten carbide cannot be non-metallic. So how can tungsten carbide be a ceramic?
@@paulh2981 ceramics can be a compound of a metal and nonmetal bonded ionocovalently like in this case. Or it can be something like carbon nitride which consists of nonmetals bonded covalently.
@@paulh2981 you know nmothing
I’m glad I read this comment before taking the time to explain it myself.
Melting point is around 2,900 C, so it is unforgeable. To the haters out there, Chandler readily admits that he does not know all that there is to know. As an apprentice Mechanical Engineer I have done a little Blacksmithing and if it were not for our tutors we would have been making mistakes all over the place. Personally, I admire Chandler's work ethic. He got laid off which can be a huge blow if there are no vacancies in the area for your skill. Redundancy can cause depression and suicide in some instances. Chandler stuck two fingers up at the gloomy side and went and built a Smithy and allowed us to watch his learning curve on RUclips. So well done and thank you to Chandler for having the gonads to entertain and educate us at the same time.
An interesting and very empathic post - a nice contrast to much of the random hate everywhere :)
I join you in thanking Chandler and wishing him the very best.
The only detail I'm not sure I'd support is associating forgeability and the melting point. To my knowledge, the presence of movable planes in the crystal lattice of a material determines whether it - in bulk - behaves ductile or brittle. Not saying that there aren't many other influential factors, such as the presence of solid/solid phase transitions etc., but that I consider the material remaining brittle as the single most important aspect in this case.
Otherwise, if the melting point itself was crucial, forging a ceramic material, such as WC, should still be possible at very high temperatures (or using a very high force) - which is not the case. No matter the temperature or the force applied, the extreme size difference between C and W atoms (and the resulting salt-like crystal structure) locks the atoms in place and prevents coordinated movements of planes of atoms within the material (required for deforming a crystalline material). Only random movement of individual atoms is possible, culminating in the material melting at very high T (or shattering at high F).
I could be wrong, judging the issue from a chemistry/material science point of view, but this is my take on it. It's not meant as criticism towards your opinion or knowledge ;)
Cheers!
P.S.: I just picked up that a drill bit is actually made of WC in a metal Co matrix, so discussing the properties of WC itself seems to be kind of insufficient. (aha, that's where the green comes from, oxidation product CoO) I will still leave my points applying to pure WC, since they might be of academic interest to someone. However, I don't think I'm qualified to theorize about complicated metal/ceramic composite materials. In that case, I'd rather follow Chandler's lead and go empirical xD
SimonSagt LP Well put together post. Things change all the time and there may be one day when forging Tungsten Carbide could be done in everyone's back yard smithy.
When welding hit a few walls MIG and TIG gas shielded welding came in. Plasma welding another advance. So one day who knows.
keefy
Sorry, maybe I didn't word my post clearly enough. I argued that pure WC (= tungsten carbide, of course) will likely never be forgeble for physical reasons (its atomic structure). The properties of a composite containg WC and a metal (like the drill bit is made of), is another story, and while I believe that won't be forged either, I can't predict it, because there are so many variables.
Cheers, man.
SimonSagt LP I think you are spot on. Trying to attain the change is against the atomic structure and heat while preventing oxidization on such a brittle base is not achievable. In some ways, as my mind thinks, it would be like trying to forge a fine china tea cup. The company I worked for had an industrial gear box that required a large bronze output gear. Basically the bronze was turned and gear cut and finally ground for bearings and oil-seals. When I joined the company they used a standard cast bronze which would end up, after at least some machining, with around 25% -33% scrap due to porosity and inclusions in the bronze. I had just finished a 5 year MoD contract whereby we used centrifugally cast bronze which we saw maybe 1%-2% scrap due to errors in the bronze. I sanctioned the change for the part to be centrifugally cast. Although the part cost was slightly more expensive, being centrifugally cast, the savings were tremendous as we did not lose out on wasted machining time and part cost. I suppose it is just to show that things can change even though we do not know about it, until we look. As for forging WC it is probably in the same category as an Alchemist changing lead to gold by using iron, sulphuric acid and a frog's leg. Take care, be well.
Well said, Keefy.
So, just some basic logic b/c some of the comments are rude and getting an unusual amount of thumbs ups. We wouldn't expect a forger to know about tungsten-carbide; just as we wouldn't expect a home builder to know about furniture grade hardwood. Both furniture maker and home builder deal with "wood" but different types. So, if you are slamming this guy for experimenting with a new material for forgers, then you are only exposing your own insecurities. Also, "Google" is a search engine...its not an all knowing giver of knowledge. In fact, its replete with bullshit and its probably faster to just do the experiment rather than rely on some random bit with a website. You have to know which sites are reputable. I will say, he probably should've looked at MSDS sheets or OSHA which talk about "hard-metal-lung disease" in regards to tungsten/carbide/cobalt metals for safety first! Also, if you can't get that info...then you use the appropriate respirator; even if you are outside. Because we like Chandler and want to see him enjoy a long healthy life!
***** Plenty of people out there trying to sound smarter than they actually are. If they were truly secure in their abilities, why didn't they recommend a respirator as I did? Or offer useful advice? "Look it up" is not advice. Its a generic response from people who don't know shit and probably think they are 'experts' because they assembled their Frimlumbjorken from IKEA by themselves. Just puffing up and making themselves sound stupidly childish.
+Slap Stick I find that people who focus so much on other people's insecurities are masking the fact that they have much worse insecurities within themselves. You should work on yourself before you start ranting about how other people need to mature.
jjaapp18 Oh did I hit a nerve. I defended the video maker and that makes me immature? Thats just brilliant logic. Can't stop laughing.
Slap Stick
It does sound like I hit a nerve, though. Classic phrases used by someone most would consider... "butthurt"
jjaapp18 So whatever I say, you will just repeat. Thats cute, miss. This is where you repeat "miss."
Tungsten carbide is a 50/50 ceramic of tungsten (very hard metal with the highest meting point of any metal in its pure form, 3422 °C, 6192 °F) and carbon and is the second hardest stuff know to man, it also has a melting point about twice that of steel (2,870C or 5,200F). I think it is also eutectic; meaning that there is no temp at which it softens it just goes from solid to liquid (like solder).
Only diamonds will cut it can only your plasma cutter will melt it.
In contrast steel is an alloy/ceramic, depending on witch chemist you ask, of iron and about 2-3% carbon. it's called an alloy by most engineers despite being a mix of a metal and a non metal because the carbon is so low. anything over about 6.5% carbon is a ceramic called cimetidine.
faolan1686 I was just going to post info on this very thing!
faolan1686 try tantalum melting piont
MacFarland Pickard
1,650 C, 3,000 F. Also half that of tungsten. Titanium is not a super metal. If fact it's melting point and corrosion resistance are the only things it has over plain old steel.
***** To brittle, it would break like glass. You might able to make one out if tungsten but it is hard to work and very dense, almost as dense as lead.
faolan1686 haha i was gonna say something along the lines of that but i see you've beat me to it
Just made me cry! I could of told you it can't be done and you could of given me that very expensive end mill that you destroyed! Check out how much they cost! I could of given you a bit of a broken cutter to experiment with.
Andrew Wilson My thoughts exactly. $100 US would have probably been cheap for a new one that size. Got any more like that one and you can mail me them... I'll pay the shipping.
Andrew Wilson I share all your pain... but had to give it a go... We can think of it this way... 38,000 views.. so purhaps by sacrificing one repairable bit I ultimately saved thousands that might have been destroyed if this video didn't exist... maybe?
Guess we can start a new idea and topic here-what is the most exotic or weird metal that you can forge into something useful? I used to had a block of depleted uranium form an aircraft ballast weight but don't think the postal people would be happy with that? Anybody got a lump of titanium to try?
Andrew Wilson Im not a metallurgist, just a fabricator/welder. Ive never tried to heat and beat titanium but I have TIG welded quite a bit of it. It seems to melt more like aluminum than steel.
I made some drive shafts for a racing Land Rover out of some rejected helicopter parts made from titanium, was tough to cut and worked my big lathe hard but must of worked as they still in use!
I did try to make a forged knife blade from high speed steel, it forged but was tough work!
Hey dude, greetings from Europe, your videos are cool :-) I certainly like your "Learning by doing" approach!
A little insight if I may on this here topic? The forging wasn't possible, because TC isn't really a metal...its a crystal lattice of wolfram and carbon atoms, harder than any steel, but essentially brittle as hell. When you called the first chipped off piece "like ceramic", you were not far off...its kinda similar.
To work it into shapes like heavy-duty cutting tools, TC is not forged, its sintered...essentially powdered and then molten (melt. point somewhere around 2800°C)
Please keep up the videos =)
this guy here knows stuff!
also wolfram=tungsten
thanks!
On the money man aha I was stumped not I understand it's pretty much like forging a ceramic or diamond correct me if I'm wrong but that's kinda how I picture it (I'm new to the technical side of metal)
why green inside?
Severus Fumizuki
Steel is an iron alloy. Tungsten carbide is a combination of Tungsten, Carbon, and sometimes small amounts of Cobalt or Boron. It can be forged by first casting it into the middle of a steel billet, then heating the whole thing to just shy of the melting point of steel and hot forging the whole issue, then remove the steel. The steel will constrain the T.C. from cracking if you figure out what angle to hold your tongue at. Tricky even as an industrial process, not for your BBQ. :)
+john milton Excellent comment!
+john milton very interesting, thank you
john milton ..sp it is a ceramic.
Is it possible to make a blade with pure tungstene ? Like a razor blade ?
@@laurentcambon in theorie it would be possible, but the problem is, it would be really difficult to sharpen as tungsten is a very hard material which means its quite resistant against scratches, so you would need a material at least as hard as tungsten but it would propably cost a lot of time anyway as you can't sharpen it with such a speed as you can do with steel as tungsten tends to break from vibrations and shocks. But if you would manage to sharpen it properly it would be really sharp due to its hardness. Still it wouldnt be a good knife in my opinion as it would break really easy even if you just drop it by accident. The hardest knife material i hab recommend would be D2 steel, but even hear you shouldnt take knife which are to long, as that steel wont vibrate like others by hits and break instead.
Chandler Dickinson, I love the fact you are experimenting! Never know what you'll accidentally learn.
Nothing he couldn't learn by spending two or three more minutes on Google.
@@skylerthompson8046 go be fun at a partie bro
@@skylerthompson8046 He said he researched and learned you couldn't. But he still wanted to see how it reacts.
Yeah, tungsten is way to hard to work at home, industrial equipment and the odd bit of jewelry is more or less the extent of it's use.
I have a One Ring replica made from tungsten carbide, I find humor in the fact that I could throw it into a volcano and theoretically it would survive.
That is awesome.
Laughing Man Tungsten is not the same as tungsten carbide. Tungsten is what they make incandescent light bulb filaments out of, and although somewhat brittle, it definitely can be forged into curly wires.
Benjamin McLeod I knew about the filaments though I doubt they're actually forged out to be that thin, and figured it had do be something else since it was tungsten carbide and not just tungsten. Same way industrial diamond doesn't mean a drill made from a gem. Honestly I just stopped looking into it once I figured out it's too hard to work without special equipment.
I know some dart barrels are made from tungsten since it's so dense for it's size.
Mom was a nurse for a while. Guy came in with a swollen hand, wearing a ring. Almost lost that finger, because the damn ring was titanium or tungsten or something, they broke two pairs of cutters trying to get the ring off and save the guy's finger. If you're gonna wear something exotic as a ring, something removable is ideal.
Lunumbrus
Sounds like his ring was too small for his finger, or he got stung or something.
My rings are a little loose on me, but once they warm up they become a perfect fit. Plus I keep the tungsten one in my pocket, more like a token than jewelry. The one I wear is just stainless steel so no real danger of not being able to cut it there.
The reason it can't be forged is that it contains equal measures of carbon and tungsten, carbon makes it brittle. Add to that the fact that tungsten has the highest melting temperature of any metal and you've got an unforgeable metal.
im glad someone finally answered it properly :-)
Bingo. Its basically no longer a metal really, its metal-carbon crystal :D But the stuff is awesome, unfortunately however almost unworkeable with home equipment, because the only way to really get it into shape is powdering it and sinter it back together...and the melting point is almoust double that of iron so, yeah ^^
Well kind of. The reason why you can't forge tungsten carbide is because it is a salt. Beating on salt crystal structures will cause it to crack instead of bending.
Not really, it is still considered as a metal as it's formed mainly out of pure tungsten carbide and ceramic bonded together with boron or cobalt. The thing that makes it hard but brittle are those cobalt bonds. To make it simple, it's very very strong in compression, heat, scratching, but it has a very low impact resistance unless centered with another metal.
This is Squaal Tungsten carbide is not a mettal.
This stuff is so fascinating, I can't get enough of it. Blacksmithing, forging, pounding metal into tools, knives, etc.... Fascinating.
Yh
Holy shiite you were my cub scout leader
Jim O'Connell Lol and I assume I didn't let you swear like that! lol Good to see you Jimmy!
Oh dear I didn't expect you would actually see my comment hahah
Jim O'Connell After my 8 years as a Boy Scout Leader I spent the next 9 years as Girl Scout leader... Lol I see everything!
Wow I didn't know that! Lol
N. Pike Thought just the same thing, and imagined Patrick Stewart saying it as well (referece to the brittish tv show "extras"). We are the worst sort of people arn't we :P
forges metal. doesn't know what tungsten is
+Exploding Crow I forge metal and I do know what tungsten carbide is... Unlike some people I was not born with total knowledge of all things... I actually learn things along the way... And this was a learning experience... but to simply correct your comment I believe it would be more accurate if it stated.."forges metal. didn't know what tungsten was"
Chandler Dickinson well at least you know now AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE
+Chandler Dickinson _Unlike some people I was not born with total knowledge of all things_
At 1:25 you seem to ignore Google. A two second search shows that the melting point is 5,200F.
RonJohn63 Chandler is a strong independent black-smith who don't need no google
+Exploding Crow
Show a little respect Exploding Crow.
Respect a lack of knowledge and a genuine attempt to fill a deficit in that knowledge with practical experimentation. Not everyone is 'book learned' dude.
Nice work Chandler-Respect!
Brendan Esposito - Uki Cutlery - UKI NSW Australia
Thank you sir, for answering the question of 443,455 viewers. We always had question floating around with "what if?" statements. I raise my hat to you.
I love this "let's go for it and see what happens" method. A lot of courage there.
I like that he tried it himself. I've found that I've been able to do many things I didn't think I could, just by giving it a try.
Experiments are important. Even when there is certain failure ahead. Cheers.
I love your videos Chandler. Your curiosity and desire to learn by doing is awesome!!! Its always encouraging to watch you work. The way you talk through your videos gives me new ways to think about approaching new things just like this. Thanks for what you're doing.
Lots of good info in the video... I knew that you couldn't forge a tungsten carbide bit because an old timer told me 20+ years ago. Watching Chandler D demonstrate that was very cool- I hadn't tried it. I got to see and hear it. Thank you Chandler.
I love your idea on the 2 ways to learn. I am definitely one of those "try it yourself" sort of people. Lots of money wasted but plenty of experience gained. I'd say the cost of learning something first hand is definitely worth it (supposing you don't die in the process). Sometimes you just have to run head-first into a brick wall to realize that wall isn't going anywhere because you can't always trust what people tell you.
It's a ceramic... of course you can't fucking forge it like that.
Kevin Jacobson OK is a fucking metal en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten
can you read before you post rubbish also 8 people are stupid too
Epic trailers tungsten is a metal. Tungsten carbide is a ceramic.
That was an expensive 4 flute mill!
***** LOL that is true. That was probably in excess of $125! The tool crib where I work would expect to have that tool back when you were done using it, and If you said it broke you better have a pretty darn good sized piece of it! That experiment could have easily been done with a broken tool.
+tdej80 like $350 or more
I'm a machinist in training and my teacher just bought 10 1" carbide end mills and I had one chucked up in our haas and was setting offsets on a odd ball part and I jogged the x instead of z and snap! All I can say is I didn't get to use carbide for a while and he did not like looking at $175+ on his desk in a dozen pieces
Johndeere 100 I got a ban from the engine lathe once for hitting the tool holder with the chuck jaws, now I weld!
Confused by these comments. If the business owner had given him the part, knowing he intended to attempt to forge it, obviously they weren't expecting to ge5 the drill bit back.
Criticize his knowledge if you must, but this talk of waste is unwarranted. Learning something has more value than a used drill bit which has been given away for testing.
I found it very refreshing to watch someone learn, I thought he was excellent when he spoke about the limits of his own knowledge and how he was using his own curiosity to absolve his ignorance. There is a valuable lesson on display here.
You need Thor's hammer to do this .
Tungsten is my favorite element. In part because it has the highest melting point. You might be able to forge it with an arc furnace, or MAYBE an induction furnace.
TC is an alloy, but basically, you'd need to be working at about twice what your forge can put out
I am glad you tried this because I was curious about the possibility of this being used as a knife.
Excellent video, I was just trying to figure out why I cant size a tungsten ring and now I know. I appreciate your approach to being told you can't as I found myself in the same situation when told I can't size a ring
Great video and I fuckin love your attitude and passion in learning in your own way. Good shit man. Good luck getting a new job, shit took me a while but I'm finally hitting 61k, not great but as a single debt free 24yr old male, it's alright. Keep up the videos, subscribed!
Steel is an alloy made mainly from iron. No iron, no steel.
I work with these tools 12 hours almost every day. They require a large amount of cooling while they're being used and if they get too hot they chip/break. They're made from a bar of metal then cut/moulded and ground to their specification.
I appreciate your honesty in your videos, it’s one of the reasons I keep coming back.
I've always wondered about this as well, thanks for the video.
I mean, I knew the melting temperature is really really high but I just wondered if you are able to forge it.
Prediction: It's gonna shatter. CungstenTargide is very brittle
I'm glad you did this video, man. Even though I know that stuff doesn't forge, I'd still never seen this kind of thing with it, and I got to learn some stuff from it. Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Take care, all the best.
*pulls out white-hot drill bit* "Now, I don't know if this shit will explode, I don't know anything about it." Chandler is a daredevil!
Excellent experiment! Fun to watch too!
"I assume it's steel. I don't know what tungsten carbide is."
Probably tungsten. Just from listening to you for a few minutes, I know you're a smart and capable guy. This is why we need better public education everywhere.
Tyler Chapman Great job with the bitchy comment yourself there, imbecile. I was making a point that you are too thick to pick up. You weren't.
Interesting video. Props to you for giving it a go, just to see what would happen. That kind of curiosity and willingness to experiment is something I like to see.
Hello Chandler, I've been in love with the idea of smithing for a long time, since I was a child helping my grandfather fix a sickle on his old combine. Your videos have inspired me to rekindle (forgive the pun) my desire to learn this trade. I just wanted to say thank you!
very interesting video Chandler. the trial and error process is a very shrewd school master. but the lessons taught are rarely overlooked and more rarely forgotten. I enjoyed the video as did many others I believe, as for the rest of these wise arsses......screw em.
All you needed to know before your attempt was the melting point is 5,198°F (2,870°C)
I assume your forge don't go that high.
+Dukky Drake
Jet coal can't melt tungsten beams!
+Dukky Drake but you never melt metal when you forge, you weaken it so its soft enough to work with.
+Bryce William glass softens far before its melting point. So the glasses are curved in car windows replacement service.
+Schwarzer Ritter LOLOLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Chandler. I have also tried this with neg results. I have also forged the teeth from an asphalt milling machine and had the tungsten tip come unglued from the tooth body in the fire. It turned green too. Nothing I could do with it. The only way we learn is to be taught or do ourselves. Have a blessed day. Mark
it is one thing to read about something vs checking it out yourself. great video, much appreciate to see tungsten carbide being put through the paces, cheers mate :)
I heard some where that it oxidises really quickly... Is that green the oxide? I have no idea.
Edit:
I quick google images search shows Tungsten Trioxide as green
+Chandler Dickinson
I think the reason why you can't forge tungsten carbide is because it is a salt based on 50% carbon and 50% volfram/tungsten. It is a powder that can be pressed in to crystals of different shape.
Salts are metals that have been ionized by nonmetallic molecules or atoms, resulting in positivly charged mettal atoms and negativly charged nonmetallic molecules/atoms. A salt crystal, like the tungsten carbide, is held together by the electric force between the positivly charged mettal atoms and the negativly charged nonmetallic molecules/atoms. The structure could look something like this: www.mikeblaber.org/oldwine/chm1045/notes/Bonding/Ionic/IMG00003.GIF
... As you can see in the picture all of the positivly charged atoms are next to the negativly charged atoms.
If you would try to bend this type of crystal it would be very hard. But if you would try to hit on the crystal with a hammer you could cause the part of the crystal that you are hammering on to slide down enough for the some of the negative atoms to align with other negative atoms and some of the positive atoms to align with other positive atoms. This will cause the force that first was keeping the crystal together to now cause the crystal to crack instead.
I think this is the reason why you can't forge tungsten-carbide, kind of for the same reason why you can't forge tabel salt.
... But I still very much like your atitude, keep up with the greate videos :)
Exactly. Its not even metal.
sorry tungsten is classified as a metal its a transitional metal it is malleable but only under certain conditions and in its pure form. the reason he cant forge it is the bond of the carbon and he wouldn't be able to generate enough heat to vaporize the carbon to bring it back to a pure form
There is no way you're going to forge it, simply because it's not only pure tungsten carbide (WC), it is also combined with ceramic particules and a bonding agent (boron or cobalt) which gives it it's properties as a super strong metal.
There are no home forge and probably even professional forges capable of melting tungsten carbide.
still as i said its a transitional METAL it bonds with carbon to form the material most know as tungsten carbide( carbide aka CARBON ) in an atom bond you cant generate enough heat to vaporize the carbon in the forge you have and pure tungsten can be cast formed and forged but the heat required is extremely high. i am a retired metal worker and worked for decades with various exotic metals and alloys of them
You have to make the difference between what you know about tungsten carbide, this is nowhere near a pure alloy, it contains ceramics and boron/cobalt inserts as binding agent, the fact that you can't forge it isn't linked to t° only, but to the fact that it's a very brittle alloy.
There is no way you're recovering the pure tungsten out of such an alloy because it contains so much impurities.
I applaud your attitude twords just going and trying something for yourself. Its a great way to learn. Keep it up!
Cool learning. I appreciate your sharing your experience trying. Good Stuff!
Sometimes you just need to find out for yourself. Very interesting experiment though.
It has a melting point of 2870 C/ 5200 F.
A blacksmith's forge has trouble getting up to half of that.
You can forge Tungsten Carbide. You "just" need a MegaWatt laser or something like that.
It's one of the hardest substances known to man just after diamond.
Hit it with a oxy-acetylene torch
+TheQuoChannel Yup, 3,500 °C; 6,332 °F with and oxy-acetylene torch. That should be hot enough...
+Wayne Ashby Not really I own a oilfield fishing company and I play with tungsten carbide all day and it won't melt not even with a rosebud.
"IF" RogerWico was correct in his melting point statement, the oxyacetylene torch would exceed the melting temperature he stated. The more I read about it though, and as you elude, I'm beginning to think the stuff just doesn't forge at all. If I understand correctly, I think it's more like a molded (not molten) and baked (and/or cured?) composite and then the cutting edges are then ground with a diamond grinder.
You can not, under any circumstances, forge tungsten carbide, as it stays hard till the point it melts.
Tungsten carbide can either be produced by sintering (common method) or melting (rare expensive, but precise).
If you want to melt it an acetylene torch is enough - if you manage to keep it hot, so a nearly closed container would be needed. Otherwise you simply won't be able to contain all the heat.
thanks for testing and sharing.
very interesting, woodworking is a hobby of mine so i knew tungsten carbide tipped cutting tools were better than steel but didnt know more about it than that. always neat to learn new things. good video!
"I don't see any poisonous fumes".
Amazing.
You can see certain poisonous fumes. Don't make the assumption that he doesn't know what he is referring to when YOU don't understand that fumes can be visible. Like, oh I don't know.. Mustard gas.
+YOURGIRL1769 You clearly don't know what danger Chandler was in, even when he did not see any poisonous fumes.
The problem is that he thinks he's safe because he sees no fumes. You're arguing that not all fumes are invisible. That is true, but the original commenter was referring to the ignorance to safety.
Did you miss the part where he says "...but that doesn't mean everything"?
the tungsten carbide itself isn't dangerous unless it's in powder form, but that cobalt in the middle will wreck you
Thanks! I know this is an old video but it just helped me out, I was running a thought experiment on if I could forge weld a tungsten carbide insert into a steel sword to make just the edge of the blade tungsten carbide, but if it can't be moved by hammer I suppose it can't be forge welded I to steel. Thanks for the info!
You could try doing something with press fitting and solder.
I know silver solder will bind to both steel and tungsten.
Now, that's interesting. I'm a woodworker, and I have a number of sawblades that have tungsten carbide teeth. They were brazed on - at least, that's what the manufacturers claim - but now I'm wondering exactly what the process is. What I can tell you, though, is that the blades are still sharp, even after eating loads of maple, cherry, and oak.
I have a number of router bits, too, that are Tungsten Carbide, and I'm wondering now how they were made.
Cool video!
you dented your wedge there
Dylan Buford Yes I did! uhg!
lol
***** Don't know what tungsten carbide is,but tungsten alone is one of the most heat resistent metals on earth and also one of the strongest
I'm not sure what system you have in the US but over here COSHH (Control Of Substances Hazardous to Health) assessments have been done on pretty much everything that can be used in industry. If you get something you are questioning just look up the COSHH assessment and it should at the very least give you some good indicators. The dust from Tungsten Carbide is a problem not because of toxicity, but because it's as sharp as glass fibre dust, and your lungs have real problems getting rid of it. Worst case it can cause symptoms that for all the world look like TB but cant be cured with antibiotics as its caused by sharp dust not bacteria. Your lungs can get rid of tiny amounts but the safe limits are micrograms per cubic meter of air. That said the way you were handling it wont create much dust at all (if any) and you were upwind so no need to worry. Dont grind it though!!!
Gordon Lawrence We have MSDS here. Material Safety Data Sheets but I haven't seen one for TC.
In Europe we have COSHH assessments for pretty much everything. It's beurocracy gone mad. I have even seen one for distilled water.
Gordon Lawrence
lol I'm sure we have one for that too. It is a little crazy but I guess it's better than the lack of information of 30yrs ago.
Yep 30 years ago we were still using TriChloroEthane and TetraChloroMethane and even TriChloroTriFlouroEthane in the electronics industry. Those were nasty. The orange oil derivatives that replaced them were far less toxic and actually did a better job.
Gordon Lawrence
Ah TCE. I live in Tucson and we are very familiar with that. Big ground water pollution issue with TCE here.
God Bless you, Chandler Dickenson!!
This video is really cool!! I love blacksmithing and have always been fascinated by the forging of metal!
I was trying to find something else immediately after looking at tungsten carbide material properties data sheet. Saw this video. Couldn't resist taking a look. Yup, it went about as well as I expected. It was entertaining, though, so thanks for that.
The reason it's green inside is that's the Kryptonite
Tungsten has the highest melting temp of any metal and is brittle also it's very dense and hard
Luke Song new monarchy logo. Good choice
I enjoyed watching it, and now you and over 380,000 other people know why you can't forge that stuff! Thanks!
great video, love your curiosity
High hardness cutting tools lack the ductility for classic forging. All metal work is balancing hardness for durability with ductility so it doesn't break in use.
+Steven Jerkins Its not the hardness, its the structure of the material that makes it unforgable.
***** You could do a lot of things but pretty much nothing would yield a notable result. You cant even recycle this stuff
+lolatmyage yes you can recycle carbide. we do it at our shop all the time.
+Jared Gray how? do you make it a dust first, use a chemical, melt it along side another element, or use a vacume environment as another commenter said?
+Flip Acre we sell it back to another company.
Maybe you should have asked a metallurgist on reddit first
Im a metal urgist and theroreticaly it can be melted just there no such heat on planet earth
Shane Christ yes there is.. Tungsten carbide melting point: 2,870 °C
carbon rod arcs: over 3500°C
you have been spouting BS all over this comment section.
Shane Christ People keep saying this and they are wrong. And I highly doubt you are a "metal urgist" (does that mean metal urges you do do things?).
Scientists create excessively high temperatures all the time in laboratory conditions. They make plasma, which is essentially what the sun is composed of.
Also, it may surprise you that some compounds simply do not melt. They can either sublimate - when a substance phase transitions directly from a solid to a gas (never exists in the liquid phase), or they can undergo a chemical reaction and become an entirely different compound (combustion is an example of this... when you burn solid wood, it never melts... rather it goes thru a chain of chemical reactions as all the "fuels" are burned up into mostly other solids with some gasses in the mix (smoke is actually a floating suspension of solid particles kicked off in the combustion process).
Please don't claim yourself to be something you are not - you just may get called out on it. I'd love to see even a tiny facet of proof to what you say, but I ain't holding my breathe - surely WC would melt before that happens...
EvilPlagueDoctor Agreed. Dude further adds insult to injury by claiming to be a "metal urgist"... this is a sad world if somebody cannot even spell their own supposed chosen profession...
Greg Fowler Dry ice (aka solid CO2), and in fact most high carbon materials like wood and plant matter, prove the point about no melting temperature. Basically, it's not only possible but quite common that the melting point of a material is above the "boiling point", or gas transition temperature to use a less silly term. Thus making the melting point effectively non-existent.
TL;DR: Shane Christ is a complete moron, and is definitely not a metallurgist.
Thank you for an informative video, I am still learning, and now I don't have to do a test, as I learnt from yours
Love your videos. Cool info and experiments. Keep them coming.
*_You might have been able to forge it IF you had an Electric Arc furnace. It's takes about 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit to melt that crap and strip away the Carbon. Neat to watch though._*
Tungsten carbide is not steel, it does not contain any iron.
Nice video! :) The green color comes from Cobalt(II)-oxide and is due to the fact that TC drillbits often contain Cobalt. At temperatures over 900°C, Cobalt(II)-oxide is formed (which is green). However, as soon as the metal cools down, we can see a color change to black (between 600-700°C depending on how fast we cool it down) due to Cobalt(II,III)-oxide forming as a decomposition product of Cobalt(II)-oxide..
The green Cobalt(II)-oxide is poisonous.
TF where do you seecobalt in tungsten carbide?
thanks for posting this video you're doing things I always wanted to do. awesome video bud
When I see negative comments I like to look at the sources page. Usually has no content or a bunch of likes to minecraft, epic fails or other mindless BS. Dont post a mean comment, go do it better, film it, post it and reply a link for people to see it. I like to think you can learn so much from a fail and appreciate when someone has the courage to post it. Not that this was a fail, but, none the less it was a learning experiment.
Im saying the same thing man, this guy is just trying stuff and seeing what happens and posts his finding's and that's awesome and everyone can learn a little and see what happened in the video but then we have all these little kids going around being hateful and ruining a channel or video over stupid shit.
Steel is iron and carbon, this is tungsten and carbon. You'd melt your equipment before you got that thing soft enough to do anything with.
Iron equivalent of tungsten carbide is cementite, iron carbide.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementite
You are a cool guy. thanks for your time and effort
Nice video dude! Keep it up! Thx for info about Tungsten Carbide, never see that stuff before, now I see it from inside!
thought for sure you were going to damage your anvil or hammer
Anyway, 2400C°, right? Yeah, like 1400 above white hot, or something. Nice stuff. I like the vid, & you seem slightly wacky, so I definitely subscribed.
great video thanks for the heads up
Ok this video was very enjoyable. There are far to few people anymore curious about the world enough to try something like this. In my opinion there isnt such a thing as a failed experiment as long as you gain knowledge.
How so they shape it? The original you started with. Chemicals?
Mike Sowards dito this question
They start with powder and press it into shape. Once it is sintered into a form you use carbide or diamond to grind it to the shape you want. Once finished it is extremely dense and hard. But it is also brittle.
It can be forged. The catch is that you need far more heat then you will find in a typical forge. It starts to melt somewhere around 5,000 degrees !!!
mr.jmakk you melt it into a mold and grind any imperfections and parts you don't want off
***** There is normally another metal with a lower melting point added to the sintered powder as a "glue". Also I'm not sure it can be forged as I think it is a eutectic ceramic, meaning that it doesn't soften but goes from solid to liquid in one step. Just like solder.
Justin Wildasin I've never heard of it being poured into a mold. I make Tungsten Carbide powder for sintering. Not saying it can't happen, because I don't know, but I've never heard of melting it. Any links?
Don't pay attention to the haters nice vid thanks
Your attitude to approach and learn new things and it’s really a thing to admire you sir just got a new subscriber. God bless you sir
Your shattering that bit reminded me of what happened to me when I dissembled a half axle with a hammer. I needed to remove the CV joint so I could use the shaft metal to make tools. I hit it really hard with a very large hammer and the CV joint exploded. I'm guessing it is made of some chrome steel that is very strong but not shock resistant. It turned into tiny fragments of razor sharp metal. Just like your carbide bit it shattered like ceramic. I got a cut on my head from it but the safety glasses saved my eyes.
I guess the moral of the story is "When hitting things with hammers ware glasses or loose your eyes".
Did it dent the heck out of your anvil?
John Ratko Thank god no! but i did take a chunk out of my hot cut!
Chandler Dickinson Ouch.
Chandler Dickinson I had a feeling that would happen for some reason.
"Gotta be safe" has no eye protection. No breathing mask. lol
Brent Newton you Generally dont need a breathing mask when your out in the open
Good to know. Thank you for the video with the knowledge, always room for more. Cheers from Canada's west coast.
I was curious, and looking at other metals I had no experience with. I was looking for "what happens if". Just finding someone saying "no" isn't a good answer. Watching you try was very informative. So now when someone says "Hey, can you...", I can say "no", and why.
Really, if someone gave me the same piece of metal, and I hadn't seen the video, I would have tried the same thing. I'm sure if you found this video before you tried, you could have skipped it and saved some time and fuel.
Thanks for posting it.
if you cant forge it then how did they shape it?
+Cyrus Lever presses and grinding i believe
Exreme high temperature and shape it with daimont that why tool bits tc are so freaking expensive.
+Cyrus Lever
It's a fine powder in it's base form. The powder is poured into a mold and then pressed. The pressed carbide is then removed from the mold and sintered and voilà, you have a product.
The powder, which usually also contains cobalt and other additives to improve the properties of the material, is toxic as fuck.
+xphs cool. so is toxic as fuck a technical term?or like some scientific unit of measure?
+xphs these people saying youd need the heart of a star or whatever,basicly youd have tobget it hot enough thatcthe atmosphere would catch fire right?like so hot being within 50 ft would melt your skin/boil your blood and would liquifyvany tool you tried to use to hold it
Carbide isn't metal, Tungsten Carbide is 50% tungsten, 50% carbon.
Next time try to forge cement i hear that it works too...
Are you still stupid?
carbide tools are metal matrix composites of fine tungsten carbide powder and cobalt to hold it together.
Tungsten carbide (WC) cutting tools are typically made from sintered WC in a cobalt metal matrix. The blue-green is from cobalt. WC and most other metallic carbides and some nitrides are effectively ceramics in nature, at or above moh hardness of 9 (diamond is 10).
IIRC tungsten has something like 100,000+ psi tensile strength. Super hard, but also brittle. It can be melted (look up "aluminum tig tungsten balling"), but that's with an arc temp of something like 11,000* F and enveloped in an argon atmosphere. It also conducts heat extremely quickly, which is why it takes that high arc temp to ball when the melting point is around 6000*. Really cool metal with a lot of uses.
Melting temperature for tungsten carbide is 2770 degrees Celsius
I just realized there is a whole stupid-net hiding behind a typo or wrong link. And if you first get into the stupid bubble, you can not get out.
just learned about tungsten in welding school. it's considered to have "red hardness" meaning it doesn't soften with heat. it has one of the highest melting points out there. that's why it's used for TIG electrodes. :) good experiment!
Hey I appreciate the time, I love experimenting, thanks. Amazing stuff
Tungsten carbide is not a metal, it's a ceramic.
Pure tungsten carbide is a metal, but it's never used in it's pure form. In that case, the drill bit is composed of tungsten carbide, particles of ceramic and bonding agent (cobalt or boron). They are combined in a process called sintering.
The resulting alloy is still considered as a metal due to it's structure and properties tho.
You're right! I stand corrected. I work with the material every day and I have to use diamonds to cut it. The reason you can't forge the material is because it is highly brittleness. It can be cold formed at 1290 degrees F. and hot worked as temps starting at 2550 deg. F.
Exactly
This is Sqaal: Nope Tungsten carbide is a carbide, i.e. a chemical compound consisting of tungsten (indeed a metal) and carbon. It isn't any more a metal as table salt is. (which is also 50% by atom count a metal.)
Tungsten carbide is absolutely not steel, it's TUNGSTEN. Check it out on the periodic table of elements, it has one of the highest melting temperatures of any metal, period. Have fun! :)
ReddmanDGZ Oh, it doesn't anneal either.
that's the weird thing about some of these metals. Tungsten actually has to be sintered to create those bits. And a lot of metals like aluminum or titanium don't really like to melt as much as they like to catch fire/oxidize/turn into useless mess unless done in extremely controlled environments. I was looking into tungsten/cobalt/other exotic metalurgy and it is some really fascinating stuff.
It's not tungsten either. It's tungsten carbide.
John C yes, I should have been more concise about that fact :)
He's going through a neccesary process that brings understanding, and experience. It's called learning, and he brought the viewers along for the ride. Tungsten carbide melts at 5198° F making it pretty tough to forge.
Comet Jockey Dave ... Tungsten Carbide does not become soft and maleable like Iron when heated. It stays hard and brittle and just melts and turns to liquid all of a sudden.
You can forge Tungsten though. But not Tungsten Carbide.
What a beautifully vivid shade of green.