Q&A Clip: How Christ Addresses the Violence in the Old Testament | Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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I am reading the Bible in one year and am currently in the book of Joshua, thank you for this solid reminder. God bless.
I love the story of the Cana woman. It was the topic of the first Bible study I led. Im surprised I hadn't made this old testament connection. Great stuff.
Thank you Jonathan this was very excellent. Your symbolism helps open up the Bible stories even more. I just connected a bunch of dots right there. Thank you so much.
Yes things can get so bad it's like kicking against a goad to pull back. We have to go through it whether we like it or not.
Things can get so bad that God gets crucified, but then God defeats the power of Death. Nothing and no one is irredeemable. No one is beyond hope.
God’s eternal love is Unrelenting and won’t let go till he has everything.
6 Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away.
I love you for this answers 😂❤ Praise God
Great answer, but I think people asking that sort of question don't really want an answer
Are there any books that address such topics (making links between old and new testament to understand it all) that you would recommend?
Thank you Jonathan and God bless you.
I’m not Jonathan, but I highly recommend a book by a guest of his: God Is a Man of War: The Problem of Violence in the Old Testament, by Fr. Stephen DeYoung.
@@annk.3545 Much appreciated 👍
@@annk.3545 Yes! His other book the Religion of the Apostles draws a clear throughline between the old and the new testament so is also very relevant to these questions.
I recommend to you a great, and massive, book which goes under the name: Commentary on New Testament Use of Old Testament.
It goes through every book in the NT and gets most of OT connections to get.
It's really helpful if u used it.
@@abanoubisaac7810 Thank you so much 👍
The issue at hand is that much of Europe is descendant from packs of Germanic peoples who loved their bleak, clear cut way of seeing things. That lingered on and is especially part of the irony behind them and others seeing "white people" as some default.
You see this issue crop up in other cultures (the Franks wrestled with this), but especially in the English. As you noted in the Beowulf video the Anglo-Saxons had a love of the Old Testament and that never vanished. One can see that all the way up to American fundamentalisms love of it. That enduring legacy became a part of their mentality towards North America.
In their own way, the English were like the Hebrews they admired and love to claim to be more like than others by not eliminating what haunted them fully it came back in other ways (and still does to this day).
Look up ancient near eastern war rhetoric. You’ll always see hyperbolic language. Always. They found an Egyptian stealae with an inscription speaking about how the Egyptian armies wiped out Israel completely, and totally. They said their seed was wiped off the face of the Earth and there’s none left to them. Obviously, that’s not the case and this tendency is not unique to biblical passages.
Violence in the old testament paved the way for his son jesus and to fulfill his promise of a mesiah.
"Man Sentenced God to death;
by His Resurrection, He sentenced man to immortality.
In return for a beating; a blessing; for death, immortality.
Man never showed so much hate for God as when he crucified him,
and God never showed more love for man than when He arose.
Man even wanted to reduce God to a mortal,
but God by His Resurrection made man immortal.
The crucified God is Risen and has killed death.
Death is no more.
Immortality has surrounded man and all the worlds."
- St Justin of Serbia
@@Ben-Y thats a real powerful quote, but its missing an important element that Satan used man to carry out his will and it backfired in his face.
@@Ben-Y "man never showed so much hate for God..." I don't know if anyone out there has experienced a brainless mob that wants to kill you but you remember people... specific people and the mob acts organized sometimes like a unit. The sis the experience that often is looked over for the obviously extreme pain element of the story. pain can be less person al whereas the crowd's jeering would've felt really personal.
Creating people and having them as an angry and sadistic mob would've felt terrible.
The betrayal is outrageous.
Great clip! I've been quite interested in this subject as well.
However, I'm not a regular Bible reader, and maybe someone who is can clear something up for me.
If the Canaanites were exterminated (man, woman, child), then how was there a Canaanite woman ~1,500 years later, a person who was still considered to be a part of that group which God had condemned so long ago?
i’m not sure the exact answer, but i think its the same conundrum of the canaanites returning after the Flood as well. I think of it as canaanite not as simply a biological truth but an eternal, internal one. Maybe there are countries now that could be considered “descendants of cain” based on their actions. i am also interested in more insight so i hope someone with more knowledge adds to this
@@hamnkapten7977
I think it could also be seen as a mystery.
Jonathan often talks about the margin and whatever lies in there, and usually says that you can't truly rationalize the marginal. So it could be possible that the mere fact there's a canaanite woman is another manifestation of the mystery of the margin.
@@LudiusQuassas in many mythological stories including those reconfigured for modern storytelling (fantasy movies etc), you can find the survivor of the peopl thought long eradicated
The Bible says in Joshua and Judges that the Israelites didn't completely wipe out the Canaanites. Israel made compromises and "rested on their laurels". This is part of why they struggled with idolatry, because the idolators were still living among them. I believe the Bible talks about Canaanites being around in Kings. Plus, I believe the Philistines count as Canaanites, and they were around in David's time and beyond
Cannanites lived all up and down the Levant coast, so the Israelites didn't slaughter them all...Lebanese are descendants of Cannanites but they are only neighbors to ancient Israel. Plus not all of the Cannanites were the same. Like the Greeks, they were more identified by their city states than by the broad definition of Cannanites/Phoenician, at least to themselves
Great! This thrashes the Marcionite heresy at the heart of modern interpretations such as Jung and much process theology. Even atheists, Jews and Muslims go to this if pushed enough. Most in Vervaeke land either go here, or try to get around it with an evolutionist reading and new age “Jesus.” Dostoevsky had it pegged in The Grand Inquisitor.
I agree with the observations about things getting to a point of no return. (The danger of any society.) But why did the curse of Noah land on Ham's son and not Ham who was involved with the nakedness incident? That adds another layer to the story concerning inheritances and the firstborn. The story also parallels the Garden of Eden where nakedness became a focal issue-and illustrates much of Paul's extensive discussion about "the flesh." The eyes of flesh lead down one path, The eyes of faith lead elsewhere.
The issue is not that Ham saw Noah naked. To my understanding, seeing someone's nakedness is an ancient middle eastern euphemism for either seeing or becoming intimate with another person's spouse. Someone's spouse and experiencing that intimacy that belongs to them alone is to "see their nakedness." Some believe that the plain meaning is that Ham either had an affair with his mother (or whoever else was married to Noah at the time) or probably more likely raped her, effectively as a show of dominance and defiance of Noah's authority over the family and the new humanity (which explains why he felt the need to wait until Noah was plastered). The son that Noah cursed is possibly the child born of rapacious incest. I imagine that this would also mirrored further in Genesis with the story of the birth of the people of Edom, born out of rapacious incest between a drunk and incapacitated Lot and his two daughters. I think you can still question why Noah cursed the son who didn't ask to be born the way he was, but this reading makes a lot more sense. Perhaps it was a more general curse. Noah basically tells him that he messed up the inheritance of his family line because his son was the illigitimate product of rape and incest. Illigitimate children and their line cannot receive inheritance and then become the lesser than the trueborn sons. That's how I've come to understand it, amyway.
@@Tyler_W Could all very well be. as you describe. Something certainly happened to offend the other brothers.
The inheritance I was thinking of, is a spiritual one, not a physical one. There's the leading of the flesh (that nakedness represents) or there's the leading of the Spirit. The father's choice in this matter will always have an impact on his children.
@@Tyler_W This was the interpretation I came to also, the punishment fits the crime.
It wasn't Ham who saw Noah's nakedness but Canaan, who then relayed it to Ham.
@@Uthwita I’m just going by what the text says.
There is a verse where God said the Canaanites would be destroyed because of their child sacrifice practices, and the means of punishment would be the armies of Israel. Instead of fire falling from the sky, like Sodom. Yet the language was hyperbolic, because Canaanites kept existing.
Thank you for the explanation I get your point with the caananite woman and Christ. However, how was the eradication fair or righteous in the time before Christ (genesis). I get how it could be justified or fair now but how about then?
Listen to the first 5 or 6 episodes of the "Lord of Spirits" podcast. Completely reframed this topic for me.
The Canaanites were not a nation state or race being ethnically cleansed because they were squatting on land that God wanted. They were tribes of people who worshiped demons and sacrificed and ate their children, and God used his new nation of Israel to destroy them. God gave them 400 years to turn from their detestable heathen cults, and eventually time is up - God will no longer let you harm others and His creation with impunity.
I read God is a Man of War by Fr. Stephen De Young and thought it was pretty good. I dont recommend everything by Stephen De Young but that book is worth the read.
Any particular reason why not recommend other titles?
@@nwhoa56812 Probably because he's Roman Catholic, the guy commenting not Fr. Stephen De Young.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I don't understand how the Canaan woman episode is the finality of that verse from Old Testament. So what exactly is the entire story in this case? Because for me it seems understandable why there were some heretics (marcionists) who saw 2 different gods in the Old and New Testament. I mean the Old and the New Testament feel like they worship 2 different gods. I think I'm missing the string which connects that story with the one from the New Testament and the meaning behind this entire story. Does anyone have a better understanding of this?
I have the same problem..
I recommend listening to the "Lord of Spirits" podcast. First 5 or 6 episodes should address this ossue for you
The Canaanites were cursed after Cain killed Abel and the Canaanites were outcasted from the lord. The Canaanite Lady placed her faith in jesus christ and demonstrated the Canaanites could reconnect with the lord.
The story was always that the Canaanites needed to repent from their evil ways. Rahab was spared because she repented and became an Israelite before Israel destroyed Jericho. God would have spared Sodom, a city so far gone that when they saw angels they wanted to rape them, if He found even 10 righteous people living there. The Syro-Phoenecian woman is the last Canaanite in the Bible, and as an intermixed jewish heretic (Samaritan) she recognized who Jesus was while most of the Jews did not. That alone tells you the Biblical narrative isn't about ethnicity or race but about the heart.
The Old and New Testament do not feel like they worship different gods.
@@jejsunsedicka7504 You missed my point. 🙂 How the miracle with the woman from Canaan is a continuation of wiping out Canaanites?
Christ returning means the forgiveness of evil doers or their complete destruction?
Aka old testament style.
We shall see soon enough!
When it comes to the 2nd Coming, definitely Old Testament style lol
That depends on the person. If someone is repentant and striving to move away from their sins, there is grace. If someone has continued to pursue evil and refuse to repent, there is judgement. The new testament is pretty clear on that point.
A nation built up in God's law was a necessary vessel for the emergence of Christ who came at the fullness of time.(at the right time) For this nation, Israel, to exist, it was necessary to remove evil from the land, so that eventually through Messiah the entire world could be transformed.
If Christ healed the Cainanite woman’s daughter, that means he healed her fallen tendencies, not just what monster may have been lurking in her bloodline.
Jesus was sent to show us what God is like.
how can the cananites be descendants of nephilim if nephilim were wiped out in the flood?
So to Christ we are dogs not fit to eat from the masters table.
The Canaanites needed Jesus
Who doesnt?
then Jesus was all like "dont feed the dogs the masters bread or whatever." lol i mean at least you get the point of it. XD I heard a terrible abuse of this scripture not long ago but this one seems pretty on point with the meaning of that story. someone tried to say Jesus was being racist. DX
We live in a world with viagra, and gay people who have kids…whatcha gonna do?
(The shake-up, is not the same as the wake-up.)
“{{{(((all good vibes)))}}}”🖕
“All Apologies” - Nirvana
(I know it’s only rock-and-roll, but I like it.)
Most of the old testament is Samael or Demiurge, not the Father of Jesus.
That's a gnostic view of the old testament. The gnostics were not in line with Christ or the apostles. Their traditions came much later, and none of their teaching is present in the early church. The church fathers quite clearly dismantle the gnostics (I highly recommend St. Ireneus' writings on this.)
@@MatthiasPendragon Nah! The Gnostics make much more sense and don't have silly unnatural doctrines like fleshly resurrection.
The Gnostics rightfully perceived this Petulant child of a character in the old testament who calls himself a jealous God.
Ireneus's Cope makes me like the Gnostics much more.
Also not true that, the Gnostics came much later, the Gnostics and Proto Orthodox both were among the followers of Jesus.
@@st.mephisto8564 The God of the Old Testament is the One whom Jesus addresses as Father or Abba.
On the other hand, the Gnostics were heretic cults that has its origins in Greek philosophy which seperated soul and body and who saw creation itself as evil.
They tried to appropriate Christ's teaching and misrepresent them and also tried to infiltrate Christian groups to get more followers.
@@st.mephisto8564 That "petulant child" is Jesus Christ according to the New Testament.
Gnosticism is the same pattern as Marxism. It's really Marxism from 2000 years ago. Gnosticism is Satanism. They believe the snake was the truth teller, not the deceiver and God is a trickster. You believe matter is evil.
Ypu mock the Christian belief but your belief is something you don't believe. If it's true try slipping your hand through the wall. Is this for;d just an illusion? Is there really gnostic knowledge that will reveal how to see through the illusion?
You don't realize you've fallen for an ancient con from con artists that claimed they had 'secret knowledge?"
When people say they have secret knowledge it's 1) an indication they don't have anything impressive to say so they say they are waiting to reveal it.
Your imagination of what their knowledge is is stronger than their actual knowledge.
Gnosticism is a mind trick. It's all words. They don't even believe in their own eyesight. It's all a trick so you know nothing. beauty itself is ugly to you because it is of matter.
You've been tricked for something hat is silly and imaginary.. a promise of knowledge that doesn't exist.