I've always hated that term. It implies that combat is simple or thoughtless. Something a child would do. Knowing when and how to attack is a lot more complex than most players realize.
@@Thessik73combat is simple, yes, but it’s *FAR* from thoughtless, knowing when, who and with what to attack with does indeed require a fair bit of thought
It's not often I strongly disagree with you, but I do here. "What is my wincon" should be your first question, even if you already know the answer, because the second question that should always follow is "Now how do I get to that wincon?" I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it came across, but this one struck me as a "throw cards in a pile, play" recommendation, which makes for long slow grindy games. Considering how to get those lige totals to zero is the most important part of deckbuilding.
I think when people have been asking you "what's your wincons" I think they're actually asking you, "what ways do you have in your deck to close the game out" like an example would be your psychosis crawler in the deck that draws a whole bunch of cards is an answer when I hear the question, "what's your wincon"
you do know that those 2 questions are the same question? maybe people don't understand the first short one, and that's the problem. but asking that question before building a deck is really important, and the first you have to ask.
Yeah that’s exactly it, another way of putting it could be “how does this deck not durtle” like how are you yourself (not other players) progressing the game to eventually close
Wincon imo should be entirely what you build your deck around regardless of power level. Many players use the ABC wincon methods. Example: Plan A can be combat. Plan B might be a pill you take the morning after. Plan C could be a jank alt wincon or combo.
I think what people mean by a "wincon" is a way to finish a game (i.e. not drag it out by attacking with a couple of 1/1s). Whilst it may work for you to not think about how you're going to close out a game, there are definitely brewers who get too wrapped up in synergy and cool interactions and neglect the "how do I actually turn the tides and win a game" aspect. Incidentally, I've been brewing a janky combo deck around Barren Glory recently and it's the only real way the deck can win, outside of beating people out with commander damage over many turns!
I think this might be a miss... yes I want to win with combat damage... the question is how you will accomplish it? Take slivers. You want to win with combat damage, but more precisely you want to assemble a critical mass of sliver to buff and grant evasion to let you come in for damage. Elves? Cm of elves and buff with an overrun effect... Kahlia? Cheat big creatures into play that let me trade favorably 2 for 1 with decent blockers and outvalue my opponent to finally start getting in for dmg
1 - I just lost to Simic Ascendancy today 2 - Just counted. Out of my last 10 decks, only 2 of them win by reducing my opponents' life to zero. The rest are either forcing them to draw their entire deck or Approach of the Second Sun or exiling their libraries. In my pods, generally two of the four players are playing some other wincon that doesn't care about life totals. Yes, I've killed someone with Commander Damage with my Riku deck once (casting and copying Craterhoof 4 times), but I mostly won through pumping 100 mana into Helix Pinnacle or absolutely destroying everyone with Craterhoof (generally having over 2000 power on the table, so life totals didn't matter all that much either)
Your approach to winning (winning being minda incidental) works for a lot of decks but especially when brewing very wheel spinning decks you have to think about your wincons (for example on an echantress deck you probably want cards that get bigger when you have enchantments or cards that make tokens when you play enchantments). Some decks can just end up durdeling all game, drawing cards making more mana ans doing stuff but beating down with a couple of 2/2 utility creatures is not really what I'd call a wincon.
He definitely forgot that there are cards that close games out. Craterhoof, other overrun cards, the cards he brought up like fireweaver and Psychosis crawler, etc. Like, "I have some Faeries that are buffed by a couple lords" does not win games by reducing your opponent's life points to zero. I am wasting everyone's time if I want to entertain that idea in my Dimir control list. So I have to _actually_ consider how I win games because I'm not a combat privileged color combination.
Ive always had a hard time building decks without having a win con in mind. Theres always too many options for me and I get bogged down with it or I stray away from the central too much, diluting the deck from what i wanted to be doing when i first made the deck. The first few decks i made were hot messes until i started builidng around a general idea of how i wanted to be wonning the game
@Matiassanita Same man same, flickering and etbs are my absolute favorite kind of decks, but making sure they can actually close out a game is what kept me from building them for so long. I've got three ish now, but man, it took a minute building them all to get them to where I want them
I think you are already at the end of the question when people are interested at the start of the question. "What my wincon is?" Basically your decks theme but in more detail. Artifact deck could win by combat damage, artifacts entering and leaving or you could have combo deck for example on top of my mind.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree, building towards a clear wincon not only helps a lot with the deckbuilding process, but also helps to get faster games when actually playing with that deck. I had to help many friends with their decks, and the thing they struggled with the most was consistency, because just building a theme it's not enough to make the deck function, and games slugging into the 2 hours territory is painful. The only deck i have that i can feel just regular combat is enough is my ghalta deck, but even then there is a plan of doubling her damage to one shot people with commnader damage, and in that deck there is a clear wincon path, but is more of a buildup to get to that point in an efficient manner. I guess the whole wincon plan discussion matters more or less depending on the power lvl, we don't play Cedh, but i like playing at high power lvl, and combo or strong synergies are usually my plan. marath, ghave, big atraxa blink, sliver gravemother and omnath, locus of the roil all have some way to go off and straight up win on the turn i pull the trigger, or lose spectacularly by being beaten to death by creatures.
I think what people mean by “what is your win con” they mean how does the deck not durtle, for instance you took apart your Vega and Nymris deck because they kinda durtled and “didn’t have a win con” I know specifically in my playgroup that we are casual but reasonable high power, not combo but we all have a resonable idea to try to win by turn 8 or less if we aren’t stopped so “win con” is kinda important to be competitive in my group
Actually that got a very crittical question for me! When I started playing commander I wasn't really thinking of it too much (just wanted to have fun with friends in the end), but I also decided to go the control magic route. What a big mistake! Because suddenly I was able to halt all my opponents to a screech, but I wasn't winning! So the games dragged on. So, yes, the "wincon" can be crucial, if you play - especially - control.
MAZE'S END! I have that as a wincon for my Kynaios and Tiro gates deck. I have a lot of grave recursion and even put in Pull from Eternity, just in case. It's a blast to play.
Most of the time when this question gets asked to me they actually want to know some specific cards wich could be dangerous and can to some extent tell the powerlevel of a deck. In my decks these happen to be overwhelming stampende/other overun effects approuch of the second sun and cyclonicbrift or other one sided boardwipes.
I think my Wincon for Nekusar is pretty obvious since it's so well-known, but my other decks all pretty much win a little differently. -Pia Nalaar, Consul of Revival can win by buffing the Thopters she makes, make tons of angels with Divine Visitation, or go infinite with a few different combos. -The Haunt of Hightower focuses on using cards that make my opponent mill, sacrifice, or discard cards to grow him big enough to win with Commander damage. -Yarok the Desecrated wins by powering out ETBs and beating face, but it also has loops I can abuse to get infinite Gonti, Lord of Luxury ETBs to exile my opponents' decks. -Jodah the Unifier just focuses on powering out as many Planeswalkers as it can and tries to lockdown the game with emblems and creature tokens. Plus it has a secret mission to meld Urza, Planeswalker. -The First Sliver is technically Sliver tribal, but I focus on a combo that allows me to loop my entire deck and win through burn damage. I want my opponents to see my whole Sliver hive, not just a few of them.
Stormsurge Kraken is so underplayed! I built "Becomes Blocked" Tribal with Ragnar at the helm and Stormsurge is one of the top 3 performers in the 99 ( behind Dream Fighter and Gustcloak Savior for the record). It's so validating when you shout out something I love hahaha
@@adeptmage2293 I thought I replied earlier, it might have tripped a bot or something, I call the deck "Gas Station Femboy Hulk Hogan: Ragnar" on moxfield lol edit: turns out that's not a very easy way to find it, but if you search for valueengine on there all my decks are public, gl!
I'm super curious what you consider a "casual combo". I have a Haakon deck, and Haakon can go infinite super easy once he gets on the board but getting him there can be a real pain. Can the struggle to make an infinite combo have it be considered a "casual combo"? Or are all infinite combos off limits?
I know I’m not EDH Deckbuilding but the way I interpret a “casual combo” comes down to a line of questions. Can I consistently combo before turn 7? If yes, it’s not casual. Is my combo fragile? If no, it’s probably not casual. If yes, how “casual” it is depends on how much interaction your group runs. Is my combo convoluted (4+ pieces)? If yes, it’s certainly casual. An example I like to use is my Mikaeus demons deck. It has the Triskelion combo but the only “free” sac outlet is Razaketh, so not only do I need Triskelion, Mikaeus, and Razaketh on the field, I’ll usually also need Syr Konrad and/or Bastion of Remembrance to actually win with it, turning it into a puzzle of how to most effectively ping my opponents to finish off the table before I die.
I strongly disagree. You absolutely need to consider and build around a win con or else you just end up in board stalls where everyone has 10 creatures and no good attacks and no one can close.
I think what people have in mind when asking "what is your wincon" is which measures you take to make sure you can reduce the opponents life to 0. For example, the Octopus Umbra or the Stormsurge Kraken are cards that help you towards that goal: big creatures with some "sort" of evasion. This is something that can be relevant... an engine with no way to punch through will not win a game in time.
I normally don't have a specific wincon in mind, rather just the tools to build a board state they can't stop anywhere. With the exception of my kwain deck. My kwain is just a group hug, 'everybody draws 57 cards per turn' deck. Since it will never win through combat, I used all the alternate win cons that made sense in the deck: lab man, triskaidekaphile, fellidar sovereign, atemsis (kinda), etc.
I believe you're misinterpreting the "What's your wincon?" question because it's getting worded semi-poorly. Yes reducing the opponents' life total to 0 is how you win, but a wincon is how you push for a win. In a going wide creature deck, you're winning through combat damage, but usually the Craterhoof Behemoth effects are the wincon. If you're a card draw deck, it's probably the Psychosis Crawler effects as the wincon with the Lab Maniac effects as an alternate wincon. You can incidentally win without your wincon, flexibility is important, but how you win isn't always equal to your wincon. As for the "you win the game" effects, 9/10 times they are an alternate wincon that happens to work with your deck. It's a question that should be worded better, instead of "What's your wincon" it should be "What's your usual path to winning?"
one of the decks I've had the most success with is Niv-Mizzet, Reborn. It's just a pile of good 2 color cards. When it wins, it's usually because my commander is a 6/6 flyer and I have a bunch of removal and recursion. Also it draws like 6 cards on ETB.
I really appreciate this video. I sort of feel like the odd man out when playing commander. I'm a big theme player, and win con's usually are not included into my building. I'm not interested in winning games as much as I'm interested in just playing the game. The win con conversation has always felt somewhat pedantic to me, generally, as you said, my goal is to reduce other people's lives to zero.
In my Isshin Samurai Tribal deck, it's all about hitting until the last life point is gone or getting hit until the last life point is gone. My main winning combo is Isshin equipped with Two-handed Axe while either Raiyuu Storm's Edge, Aurelia the Warleader, or Godo Bandit Warlord is on the field. If I pull that off successfully, that's game and a half.
Every single one of my decks has ways to win through either combat damage or a fun jank thing of my choosing, like psychosis crawler + drawing 50 cards
I've always seen "win con" more as "after you set up your board state, this/these card(s) really push your deck over the edge." And less of "how do you specifically win."
Chain of Smog/Witherbloom Apprentice. Ive closed out games on turn 3 with it before anyone had a chance to do anything. Alternatively, for non aristocrat theme. Chain of Smog/Sedgemoor Witch can make you an infinite number of Pest tokens you can just roll over your opponents by turn 3-5 if you have good pulls. I have these in my Chatterfang Aristocrat deck and they work great. Chatterfang itself combos off nicely with Pitiless Plunderer and Mirkwood Bats and can easily decimate a table of people if nobody responds. Lately ive been playing around with Ramses, Assassin Lord and surprisingly it does well. Ramses Voltron being the wincon most of the time, but Etrata the Silencer and Mari, The Killing Quill in combination have also won the game with their effects.
i eagerly awaited this video, since you told me you would post it. i feel like the question is not "what is your wincon" but how do you work with a clunked up field. like your mini and carl deck. thats where i questioned myself the same question. but there are answers too that as well. terror of the peaks, warstorm surge, where the ancient tread... and when i built my ognis deck i thought as well... my commander is very reliant on me attacking. whats when i cannot? so i put more stuff into the deck like mirkwood bats, reckless fireweaver, marionette master and monumental corruption. and i really really like that deck.
Eh, I think simply “reducing your opponents life total to 0” is kinda vague although I’ll probably use it! lol That being said I think to be more specific that typically my decks often follow 2 basic tenants: -have multiple ways to reduce opponents life total to 0. -the deck doesn’t necessarily need the Commander to execute a win…….generally I prefer picking commanders in the 3-4 cmc slot to purpose them as an engine piece to accelerate my board state from mid-late game. I do agree that I rarely start out with wincon in mind when building a deck…..often my #1 priority is synergy and after I stack enough synergies I’ll then decide which synergies I prefer, trim off the rest then add in whatever associated pieces I need. After that trim once more to contour the mana curve with ramp and card draw then lastly tweak the land base as needed.
Man, video after video your ethos towards commander and magic in general are so nice in sea of conformity towards deck building and *staples*. I don't know if the color identity in the game has any pull or meaning to you, but for what it's worth, you seem Abzan as heck. You remind me a lot of my friend that introduced me to the game as well, another individual I'd mark as Abzan. A welcoming host that's down to have fun and not be too serious, but still has a respect for the "unwritten rules" that make commander such a fun social contract game! Love the content bud, cheers from a Jund fan ❤️💚🖤
Great content as always. I learned something new and fundamental... I need to stop counting just wins (not so flattering). I need to also count ASSISTS (much more flattering). ...or I could add wincons to my decks.
My favorite casual combo is Mirror Mad Phantasm with any kind of clone effect in Grolnok. Activate the ability to shuffle the clone in and throw away your whole library cause there's no actual copy in your deck. Then thoracle which is less casual but still a hefty investment
Now I agree with this on the fact that you don't need a wincon in mind, my problem though is that I love janky combos and I end up with things like my momnath deck - the goal to give everyone wedding ring - if I end up with that mindset
Best alt wincon is Etrata the Silencer and trying to work around her ability with blink (you did a deck doc for me some time ago with it). Absolute blast.
when i ask what is your win con i usually expect to hear: 1- combat damage 2- combo 3- stax and i dont need to know specifics. it is more of a question are we playing fair magic or munchkin?
Simic Ascendancy + Alchemists Refuge + an X cost creature in my magus lucea Kane deck has won me a surprising amount of games when it's only supposed to be my alternate to smash with big monsters
My alt wincon in that deck is big burn spells with 3+ targets (jaya's immolating inferno, and crackle with power). Works pretty well too when doubled, and doesn't need another piece to not give my opponents a full turn cycle to kill me after I play it.
I do put a decent amount of time figuring out how my deck will win when building it. My current project is updating my food deck using all the stuff from LOTR and WOE and I have a variety of ways to win the game. Most of it is pinging folks with effects like Nadir's Nightblade.
I have been trying for ages to find a 2 color commander that is not commander centric or 6 mana or over to win through passive damage (purphoros god of the forge, impact tremors, goblin bombardment and terror of the peaks like effects) but haven't found one yet that I am happy with , does anyone have any suggestion?
My deck building idea is to decide how i want to win first (combo combat damage, or drain) then look at every card i add to the deck and think how does this help me get to the wincon i chose while having synergy with the commander. My exception is if im building a control deck then its sort of the opposite I focus on how i can control the board then ill work on winning.
even with control, you need to have ways to win in your deck like a recursive or hard to remove big threat, just to actually finish the game and not to drag it for too long.
Most of the time instead of wincon i think of a deck on what's my payoff if i run a banding deck, what can i do with the mechanic that can close out the game (in this case board wipe my opponent every turn), on Ovika, what do i do with my army of goblins, sure i can just make them and go to combat but that is ignoring stuff like goblin bombardment to shoot down everything i need to clear the way, or impact tremors to just kill everyone on a single turn
I have definitely built decks specifically to use a janky wincon card (barren glory/the cheese stands alone, immediately after worldfire was unbanned), but for the most part, my win con is that I want my whole board to be the problem, then I beat face
I build a deck first with an idea of how I can win with it. Depending on the deck I look at combos or not. Sometimes the way I wanted to play the deck changes pending on the synergy of cards I'm looking at. If I win that's the cherry on top, I just want my deck to do it's thing at the end of the day.
My top 4 decks' wincon are as follows: -darksteel reactor combo (proliferation) -shrines/combat damage -combat/commander damage -aetherflux reservoir combo
You should always have more than one win-con in your deck, if for no other reason than to not have a boring deck. “Oh wow, your elf deck is casting craterhoof behemoth…again 😑”
As a mono green player, my wincon is every one of my creatures is a threat to be taken seriously lol. I have like 5 overrun effects and a few power and toughness doublers.
I usually win by combat but in my ludevic/ olag i win by combo: usually is necrotic ooze copying asmodeus ability and skirge imp allowing me to draw and discard my whole deck then i use 'from the catacombs' to reanimate lab maniac and win. This is fine as the deck is all about activated ability so is so much in flavour
I built a 4c Lurrus Companion with Lucas and Will artifact synergy deck and played it a couple times a month without a single win in two years. It absolutely can't win in combat and has no combos (I also think i cast lurrus maybe once lol). It sure did spin its wheels real good though and ad nauseum was a blast. Im in the process of working some combos into it now, because it is a fun deck with lots of interaction, but it deserves a W once in awhile lol Open to suggestions for combos. Currently looking at Illusionist's Bracers+Aphetto Alchemist and Thornbite Staff+Goblin Welder and Orcish Bowmasters+Flumph.
Played a game last night where a guy looked at some cards that were milled and was ready to scoop because "all [his] wincons are in the bin." I'm there in colorless jank just like, "My dude, you have creatures and we're all hitting each other. You can make a win."
I used to just try to win just through combat damage, like, make a lot of creatures tall or wide, hope I can get through to hit my opponent. For example, I bought the Adrix and Nev precon, where you make tokens then make them bigger with +1/+1 counters -- and that was a horrible strategy. Now my strategy is to make clone tokens of powerful or impactful creatures and Adrix and Nev doubles the tokens. I can still win through combat this way with cards like Biowaste Blob or Scute Swarm or I can win with a card like Biovisionary that I clone with various cards like Mystic Reflection or Quasiduplicate. So my wincon is doubling clone tokens that overwhelm my opponent or just straight up win, like Biovisionary. The clone token part is very important. I don't just make tokens. I clone creatures that give me an advantage and double them with Adrix and Nev. I don't make wimpy tokens and try to make them bigger; it's not a +1/+1 deck anymore. I took all those cards out because it was just too slow. Figuring out my wincon specifically made my deck a lot better. It gave me a focus on which tokens to make and to include clone spells that make clone tokens.
So i have a faldorn deck that makes a bunch of 2/2 wolves, and sure its nice to have wolves, but they rarely have enough power to kill all of my opponents on their own. The deck needs a little more juice sometjmes so i run varius overun effects. They come out of nowhere and buff my army so it can strike. Like sure the deck works with out them, but the overrun effects specificaly are what will win me the game most reliably. You can imagine making an aristocrats deck with no blood artist effects. That would probably be lacking a win con. You need some way to push through damage or get around blockers or whatever. If you are running the biggest stuff at the table, you can just smash face. That one is easy. But there are many kind of decks that people make, that just build up a board pressence and then cant do anything with it. Decks like that usualy need a few specific cards that can make use of the resources they have aquired. Otherwise they have to exclusively hope to get lucky waiting for an opponent to give them an opportunity
I have a really dum hydra deck. Zaxara the Examplery. I tutor for selvala and kami, wisper of hope, then i either play the simic spell that says creatures base power and toughness x/x. Or i play villanous wealth, play the entirety of my opponents deck decking them or play their win con
I feel that you do your deck a disservice if you build it without a "wincon" in mind. Of course in non-combo decks you want to deal lethal to all your opponents but you should probably include cards in your deck that will let you win the game off of a decent board state i.e. WINCONS Make a bunch of creatures, play an Overrun effect. Make a really big creature, give it evasion. Play a bunch of artifacts, convert that into damage. Games of Commander need to end and this way of thinking will mean more of these games will end with you winning.
@@shadowfate05 so does alot of creatures on board itself close out games? of course. the craterhoof just speeds it up, just like the epic struggle. so it's not really your wincon. saying an overrun effect is your wincon is like saying anthems are your wincon. buffing your creatures or giving them trample is not a wincon, your creatures are.
@@shadowfate05 in a aristocrats deck the wincon is blood artist? no, it's all the effects like that. no way you win that game with just blood artist. same thing with any deck using craterhoof. it's not a wincon imo. if you want to call it that fine.
Seems like this is a polarizing video. I can see in the comments that "What's your wincon?" Could be phrased differently. I'd say something like, "How does your deck win, specifically?" If its not obvious in the command zone what your deck does, there's no way of knowing what kind of game it's going to be or how fast the game will be.
I mean if you play White and your Opponts play a Voltron Deck you just need a Righteous Aura in Play and his Wincon is ineffectiv on you. If you know what you play against the most you can counter that
To go a step further, is it then more important to have blockers in your EDH decks if in each instance here you mention "of course you can swing damage in each of these decks"?
Saying that my ghave deck and my ruric Thar deck or my selvala deck win with the same way just by reducing the life of my opponents of zero I would be lying to the table. Ghave wants to get to a position I can do everything I want. Milling, death triggers, combat damage. Any weird ass combo ghave enables. Honestly I can't recall winning with combat damage with this deck. Ruric Thar is true honest smash face Selvava is either combat damage if I draw that part of the deck. But if I combo out you die with poison damage in instant speed. My atraxa deck has won against me with simic ascendancy. It can happen. Now I actually want to build an ashami or teferi mono blue deck and win lab maniac. They are many ways to win. Even in casual. The amount of junky combos out there is huge. You don't have to win combat damage. Or damage for that matter.
I try to build decks with damage as primary win con and infinite combos as a fallback plan. Feather The Reedemed is mostly Voltron, but it can assemble an infinite extra turns combo using Sunforger. Kardur does his typical goad / ETB payoffs. Dockside Extortionist and Cloudstone Curio can go infinite if my regular value engines are struggling. Yargle And Multani is oonga boonga aggro and fling, but it's tons of draw power occasionally finds Chain Of Smog + Witherbloom Apprentice.
@rein_to49 Sunforger uses Tithe to search Mistveil Plains, then Sunforger and Mistveil loop Chance For Glory. To avoid Chance for Glory's "you lose after taking your extra turn" clause, I run Book Of Exalted Deeds, Angel's Grace, Cloudsteel Kirin, and/or Platinum Angel. Depends on how competitive or casual the game session is.
I typically try not to use infinite combos and limit myself to powerful combos. I give my opponents a chance. Infinite combos make for boring games. Tortured existence for example in my Imotekh deck where I can play like 20+ creatures a turn. It’s powerful but they could wipe the board (e.g. Farewell), so it’s not an immediate reaction for them to just scoop…
@Dragon_Fyre Like I said, the combos are always plan b. I only go nuclear if my regular strategy is outmatched by a more powerful deck, like stax lockdown or theft / sacrifice. I wouldn't deploy my combos against that Imotekh board, since I consider aggro to be fair play.
@@casketbase7750 I tend to have what I would call optional infinite combos when I include them. So Emiel the Blessed and Peregrine Drake as an example are in my blink deck. They are both effective cards in that deck. I would only use them for infinite mana where I know my opponent has similar power combos in their deck, otherwise I am content to limit their interaction with each other to once a turn and would note that to opponents if there is a rule 0 discussion. The main reason I dislike infinite combos in EDH, aside from an often anti-climactic end to the game, is it forces people IMO to play Blue so that they have counter spells or to play a CEDH deck where they can get their own win-con before you. You cannot play EDH decks that would win in 7-10 turns by “fair play”, if you expect every game to end to a tutored infinite combo. Edit: I know people that literally only play with Commanders that allow them to include the “free” blue counter spell staples in every deck (Force of Will, Fierce Guardianship, Force of Negation).
A win condition doesnt boil down to "how does this deck do damage". Thats the standard, every deck has to do damage somehow. A wincon is a method of winning that isnt reliant on dealing damage at all. Imo its a very very narrow definition in this game
I like playing tokens with blood artist effects, less as aristocrats, and more as a "no, please, kill my guy :)". I like making blocking uncomfortable, even against weenies.
My rule of thumb is always have one way to be able to end the game. Doesnt matter how as long as i hear, “im gonna try to win here” or “i could prolly end the game”
I understand your argument, but I think most times when people say this they just mean “put cards in your deck that can end the game for you.” Even though the words “win condition” wouldn’t be taken that way out of context.
This is terrible advice. This way of deck building is what leads to run on commander games and do nothing decks. If your win con is beats put some in your deck! The number of games I got stuck at with new players with a bunch of 1/2 and had to watch them durdle for an hour because they couldn't finish the job when they had the table locked down, only to loose when some one top decked an out after 15 turns. Beats is a totally viable plan but out of respect for your opponents be able to end a game in a timely manner.
Your commander does not have to provide you with a means to win you the game. It's just a game piece to make winning the game easier or providing you access to a certain strategy to win. It could even be so that the commander just provides the right colors for your game plan. See your commander more as a tool (which is always available to you) and less as the means of making your deck work
Your commander does not have to provide you with a means to win you the game. It's just a game piece to make winning the game easier or providing you access to a certain strategy to win. It could even be so that the commander just provides the right colors for your game plan. See your commander more as a tool (which is always available to you) and less as the means of making your deck work
My favorite deck I've built recently is a deck that I built with a specific wincon in mind. I built a Xyris group hug everyone draws cards deck with the goal of decking out my opponents. Building around that specific wincon allowed me to build a deck that plays in a way no other deck I've built does. I was able to pretty much abandon all offensive cards and build a completely defensive strategy because my goal was to win via deck out. By having such an abundance of defensive cards, I have generally been able to pursue my strategy with great success, though unfortunately I have only won to opponents scooping when they realize they're not able to get through my defenses. Opposition is a very powerful card when you have enough snake tokens to shut your opponents down completely. "before you go to your main phase, I am going to tap 14 snakes to tap all of your creatures and lands"
My win con is either making my opponent scoop or presenting a combo and then killing myself😂 I hate combat and never swing unless someone is using their life heavily as a resource.
What's your wincon? Well I hope my opponents bring everyone's life total low enough that I can jump in at the end and hopefully win with some random assortment of creatures.
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
"Play more, and bigger, creatures than everyone else." is my go-to. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the combat step.
Even that could be broken down to a go-wide craterhoof style, green stompy, black reanimator etc.
I call you Timmy.
I've always hated that term. It implies that combat is simple or thoughtless. Something a child would do. Knowing when and how to attack is a lot more complex than most players realize.
@@Thessik73combat is simple, yes, but it’s *FAR* from thoughtless, knowing when, who and with what to attack with does indeed require a fair bit of thought
Can I be your friend? Not only do I do this but I also like to play against it.
"Wow man, we're pretty locked out, what's your win-con?"
*large grin forms, cracks neck and knuckles*
'Activate millstone, mill you for two. Pass'
It's not often I strongly disagree with you, but I do here. "What is my wincon" should be your first question, even if you already know the answer, because the second question that should always follow is "Now how do I get to that wincon?" I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it came across, but this one struck me as a "throw cards in a pile, play" recommendation, which makes for long slow grindy games. Considering how to get those lige totals to zero is the most important part of deckbuilding.
I think when people have been asking you "what's your wincons" I think they're actually asking you, "what ways do you have in your deck to close the game out" like an example would be your psychosis crawler in the deck that draws a whole bunch of cards is an answer when I hear the question, "what's your wincon"
you do know that those 2 questions are the same question? maybe people don't understand the first short one, and that's the problem. but asking that question before building a deck is really important, and the first you have to ask.
Yeah that’s exactly it, another way of putting it could be “how does this deck not durtle” like how are you yourself (not other players) progressing the game to eventually close
@@v1talsign393 I like that alot
Wincon imo should be entirely what you build your deck around regardless of power level. Many players use the ABC wincon methods. Example: Plan A can be combat. Plan B might be a pill you take the morning after. Plan C could be a jank alt wincon or combo.
That was a weird Plan B. What exactly happens at your game nights ? 😅
@@Dragon_Fyre what happens at game night. Stays at game night.
I think what people mean by a "wincon" is a way to finish a game (i.e. not drag it out by attacking with a couple of 1/1s).
Whilst it may work for you to not think about how you're going to close out a game, there are definitely brewers who get too wrapped up in synergy and cool interactions and neglect the "how do I actually turn the tides and win a game" aspect.
Incidentally, I've been brewing a janky combo deck around Barren Glory recently and it's the only real way the deck can win, outside of beating people out with commander damage over many turns!
I think this might be a miss... yes I want to win with combat damage... the question is how you will accomplish it?
Take slivers. You want to win with combat damage, but more precisely you want to assemble a critical mass of sliver to buff and grant evasion to let you come in for damage.
Elves? Cm of elves and buff with an overrun effect...
Kahlia? Cheat big creatures into play that let me trade favorably 2 for 1 with decent blockers and outvalue my opponent to finally start getting in for dmg
Helix Pinnacle, Azor’s Elecutors, Triskaidekaphile, Hellkite Tyrant, Mechanized Production, Maze’s End; Ramses, Assassin Lord; Mayael’s Aria, Transcendence, Test of Endurance, Felidar Sovereign, Approach of the Second Sun, Celestial Convergence, Lab Man, Thoracle … Also mill, poison counters
These are my preferred wincons, because I am a Johnny, not a Timmy.
1 - I just lost to Simic Ascendancy today
2 - Just counted. Out of my last 10 decks, only 2 of them win by reducing my opponents' life to zero. The rest are either forcing them to draw their entire deck or Approach of the Second Sun or exiling their libraries. In my pods, generally two of the four players are playing some other wincon that doesn't care about life totals.
Yes, I've killed someone with Commander Damage with my Riku deck once (casting and copying Craterhoof 4 times), but I mostly won through pumping 100 mana into Helix Pinnacle or absolutely destroying everyone with Craterhoof (generally having over 2000 power on the table, so life totals didn't matter all that much either)
Your approach to winning (winning being minda incidental) works for a lot of decks but especially when brewing very wheel spinning decks you have to think about your wincons (for example on an echantress deck you probably want cards that get bigger when you have enchantments or cards that make tokens when you play enchantments).
Some decks can just end up durdeling all game, drawing cards making more mana ans doing stuff but beating down with a couple of 2/2 utility creatures is not really what I'd call a wincon.
He definitely forgot that there are cards that close games out. Craterhoof, other overrun cards, the cards he brought up like fireweaver and Psychosis crawler, etc.
Like, "I have some Faeries that are buffed by a couple lords" does not win games by reducing your opponent's life points to zero. I am wasting everyone's time if I want to entertain that idea in my Dimir control list. So I have to _actually_ consider how I win games because I'm not a combat privileged color combination.
Usually a deck not having a finisher that can kill everyone in one turn is why I take decks apart
Ive always had a hard time building decks without having a win con in mind. Theres always too many options for me and I get bogged down with it or I stray away from the central too much, diluting the deck from what i wanted to be doing when i first made the deck. The first few decks i made were hot messes until i started builidng around a general idea of how i wanted to be wonning the game
i was hoarding powerful blink cards for a year before building my blink deck, just because i had no clear wincon for the deck
@Matiassanita Same man same, flickering and etbs are my absolute favorite kind of decks, but making sure they can actually close out a game is what kept me from building them for so long. I've got three ish now, but man, it took a minute building them all to get them to where I want them
I think you are already at the end of the question when people are interested at the start of the question. "What my wincon is?" Basically your decks theme but in more detail.
Artifact deck could win by combat damage, artifacts entering and leaving or you could have combo deck for example on top of my mind.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree, building towards a clear wincon not only helps a lot with the deckbuilding process, but also helps to get faster games when actually playing with that deck.
I had to help many friends with their decks, and the thing they struggled with the most was consistency, because just building a theme it's not enough to make the deck function, and games slugging into the 2 hours territory is painful.
The only deck i have that i can feel just regular combat is enough is my ghalta deck, but even then there is a plan of doubling her damage to one shot people with commnader damage, and in that deck there is a clear wincon path, but is more of a buildup to get to that point in an efficient manner.
I guess the whole wincon plan discussion matters more or less depending on the power lvl, we don't play Cedh, but i like playing at high power lvl, and combo or strong synergies are usually my plan. marath, ghave, big atraxa blink, sliver gravemother and omnath, locus of the roil all have some way to go off and straight up win on the turn i pull the trigger, or lose spectacularly by being beaten to death by creatures.
I think what people mean by “what is your win con” they mean how does the deck not durtle, for instance you took apart your Vega and Nymris deck because they kinda durtled and “didn’t have a win con” I know specifically in my playgroup that we are casual but reasonable high power, not combo but we all have a resonable idea to try to win by turn 8 or less if we aren’t stopped so “win con” is kinda important to be competitive in my group
Actually that got a very crittical question for me! When I started playing commander I wasn't really thinking of it too much (just wanted to have fun with friends in the end), but I also decided to go the control magic route. What a big mistake! Because suddenly I was able to halt all my opponents to a screech, but I wasn't winning! So the games dragged on.
So, yes, the "wincon" can be crucial, if you play - especially - control.
I feel like every deck should have ALTERNATE win cons that can be pulled off as a backup to combat
MAZE'S END! I have that as a wincon for my Kynaios and Tiro gates deck. I have a lot of grave recursion and even put in Pull from Eternity, just in case. It's a blast to play.
I have a dedicated 5c Maze's End lead by Kyodai which uses Door to Nothing as an alternative kill target player.
Demo still brings up the time that his Angry Mob wasn’t able to beat my Beledros deck.
i will never forget.
Most of the time when this question gets asked to me they actually want to know some specific cards wich could be dangerous and can to some extent tell the powerlevel of a deck.
In my decks these happen to be overwhelming stampende/other overun effects approuch of the second sun and cyclonicbrift or other one sided boardwipes.
I think my Wincon for Nekusar is pretty obvious since it's so well-known, but my other decks all pretty much win a little differently.
-Pia Nalaar, Consul of Revival can win by buffing the Thopters she makes, make tons of angels with Divine Visitation, or go infinite with a few different combos.
-The Haunt of Hightower focuses on using cards that make my opponent mill, sacrifice, or discard cards to grow him big enough to win with Commander damage.
-Yarok the Desecrated wins by powering out ETBs and beating face, but it also has loops I can abuse to get infinite Gonti, Lord of Luxury ETBs to exile my opponents' decks.
-Jodah the Unifier just focuses on powering out as many Planeswalkers as it can and tries to lockdown the game with emblems and creature tokens. Plus it has a secret mission to meld Urza, Planeswalker.
-The First Sliver is technically Sliver tribal, but I focus on a combo that allows me to loop my entire deck and win through burn damage. I want my opponents to see my whole Sliver hive, not just a few of them.
people that ask what your wincon are asking what do I need to save my counterspells for?
Stormsurge Kraken is so underplayed! I built "Becomes Blocked" Tribal with Ragnar at the helm and Stormsurge is one of the top 3 performers in the 99 ( behind Dream Fighter and Gustcloak Savior for the record). It's so validating when you shout out something I love hahaha
Would be a pain to share the decklist? This sounds interesting.
@@adeptmage2293 I thought I replied earlier, it might have tripped a bot or something, I call the deck "Gas Station Femboy Hulk Hogan: Ragnar" on moxfield lol
edit: turns out that's not a very easy way to find it, but if you search for valueengine on there all my decks are public, gl!
I'm super curious what you consider a "casual combo". I have a Haakon deck, and Haakon can go infinite super easy once he gets on the board but getting him there can be a real pain. Can the struggle to make an infinite combo have it be considered a "casual combo"? Or are all infinite combos off limits?
I know I’m not EDH Deckbuilding but the way I interpret a “casual combo” comes down to a line of questions.
Can I consistently combo before turn 7? If yes, it’s not casual.
Is my combo fragile? If no, it’s probably not casual. If yes, how “casual” it is depends on how much interaction your group runs.
Is my combo convoluted (4+ pieces)? If yes, it’s certainly casual.
An example I like to use is my Mikaeus demons deck. It has the Triskelion combo but the only “free” sac outlet is Razaketh, so not only do I need Triskelion, Mikaeus, and Razaketh on the field, I’ll usually also need Syr Konrad and/or Bastion of Remembrance to actually win with it, turning it into a puzzle of how to most effectively ping my opponents to finish off the table before I die.
I strongly disagree. You absolutely need to consider and build around a win con or else you just end up in board stalls where everyone has 10 creatures and no good attacks and no one can close.
I think what people have in mind when asking "what is your wincon" is which measures you take to make sure you can reduce the opponents life to 0. For example, the Octopus Umbra or the Stormsurge Kraken are cards that help you towards that goal: big creatures with some "sort" of evasion. This is something that can be relevant... an engine with no way to punch through will not win a game in time.
I normally don't have a specific wincon in mind, rather just the tools to build a board state they can't stop anywhere. With the exception of my kwain deck. My kwain is just a group hug, 'everybody draws 57 cards per turn' deck. Since it will never win through combat, I used all the alternate win cons that made sense in the deck: lab man, triskaidekaphile, fellidar sovereign, atemsis (kinda), etc.
I believe you're misinterpreting the "What's your wincon?" question because it's getting worded semi-poorly. Yes reducing the opponents' life total to 0 is how you win, but a wincon is how you push for a win. In a going wide creature deck, you're winning through combat damage, but usually the Craterhoof Behemoth effects are the wincon. If you're a card draw deck, it's probably the Psychosis Crawler effects as the wincon with the Lab Maniac effects as an alternate wincon.
You can incidentally win without your wincon, flexibility is important, but how you win isn't always equal to your wincon. As for the "you win the game" effects, 9/10 times they are an alternate wincon that happens to work with your deck. It's a question that should be worded better, instead of "What's your wincon" it should be "What's your usual path to winning?"
one of the decks I've had the most success with is Niv-Mizzet, Reborn. It's just a pile of good 2 color cards. When it wins, it's usually because my commander is a 6/6 flyer and I have a bunch of removal and recursion. Also it draws like 6 cards on ETB.
Generally bad idea. if you build a deck without a win con in mind, you’re gonna have a bad time unless you enjoy not winning l.
Winnecon, a place in Wisconsin, was where the idea of including winning conditions in your edh deck came from. Hence the name
I really appreciate this video. I sort of feel like the odd man out when playing commander. I'm a big theme player, and win con's usually are not included into my building. I'm not interested in winning games as much as I'm interested in just playing the game. The win con conversation has always felt somewhat pedantic to me, generally, as you said, my goal is to reduce other people's lives to zero.
my win condition is getting to play with cards that i love : )
Dont forget about that janky liability - mind crank combo judt duscivered it in my mimeoplasm deck and it made me chuckle
In my Isshin Samurai Tribal deck, it's all about hitting until the last life point is gone or getting hit until the last life point is gone. My main winning combo is Isshin equipped with Two-handed Axe while either Raiyuu Storm's Edge, Aurelia the Warleader, or Godo Bandit Warlord is on the field. If I pull that off successfully, that's game and a half.
you shouldn't stress any game too much. you can't win 'em all. finding the fun in the patterns or the plays is key
Every single one of my decks has ways to win through either combat damage or a fun jank thing of my choosing, like psychosis crawler + drawing 50 cards
Nice.
I've always seen "win con" more as "after you set up your board state, this/these card(s) really push your deck over the edge." And less of "how do you specifically win."
Chain of Smog/Witherbloom Apprentice. Ive closed out games on turn 3 with it before anyone had a chance to do anything. Alternatively, for non aristocrat theme. Chain of Smog/Sedgemoor Witch can make you an infinite number of Pest tokens you can just roll over your opponents by turn 3-5 if you have good pulls. I have these in my Chatterfang Aristocrat deck and they work great. Chatterfang itself combos off nicely with Pitiless Plunderer and Mirkwood Bats and can easily decimate a table of people if nobody responds.
Lately ive been playing around with Ramses, Assassin Lord and surprisingly it does well. Ramses Voltron being the wincon most of the time, but Etrata the Silencer and Mari, The Killing Quill in combination have also won the game with their effects.
i eagerly awaited this video, since you told me you would post it. i feel like the question is not "what is your wincon" but how do you work with a clunked up field. like your mini and carl deck. thats where i questioned myself the same question. but there are answers too that as well. terror of the peaks, warstorm surge, where the ancient tread...
and when i built my ognis deck i thought as well... my commander is very reliant on me attacking. whats when i cannot? so i put more stuff into the deck like mirkwood bats, reckless fireweaver, marionette master and monumental corruption. and i really really like that deck.
Eh, I think simply “reducing your opponents life total to 0” is kinda vague although I’ll probably use it! lol
That being said I think to be more specific that typically my decks often follow 2 basic tenants:
-have multiple ways to reduce opponents life total to 0.
-the deck doesn’t necessarily need the Commander to execute a win…….generally I prefer picking commanders in the 3-4 cmc slot to purpose them as an engine piece to accelerate my board state from mid-late game.
I do agree that I rarely start out with wincon in mind when building a deck…..often my #1 priority is synergy and after I stack enough synergies I’ll then decide which synergies I prefer, trim off the rest then add in whatever associated pieces I need.
After that trim once more to contour the mana curve with ramp and card draw then lastly tweak the land base as needed.
Man, video after video your ethos towards commander and magic in general are so nice in sea of conformity towards deck building and *staples*. I don't know if the color identity in the game has any pull or meaning to you, but for what it's worth, you seem Abzan as heck. You remind me a lot of my friend that introduced me to the game as well, another individual I'd mark as Abzan. A welcoming host that's down to have fun and not be too serious, but still has a respect for the "unwritten rules" that make commander such a fun social contract game! Love the content bud, cheers from a Jund fan ❤️💚🖤
Great content as always. I learned something new and fundamental...
I need to stop counting just wins (not so flattering). I need to also count ASSISTS (much more flattering).
...or I could add wincons to my decks.
My favorite casual combo is Mirror Mad Phantasm with any kind of clone effect in Grolnok. Activate the ability to shuffle the clone in and throw away your whole library cause there's no actual copy in your deck. Then thoracle which is less casual but still a hefty investment
I dont think ive ever asked someone what their wincon is.
'Hey bro, whats the 3 cards i need to save my removal for?'
Now I agree with this on the fact that you don't need a wincon in mind, my problem though is that I love janky combos and I end up with things like my momnath deck - the goal to give everyone wedding ring - if I end up with that mindset
Best alt wincon is Etrata the Silencer and trying to work around her ability with blink (you did a deck doc for me some time ago with it). Absolute blast.
I have a deck with Etrata as commander, Ravenloft adventurer and and Mari, the Killing Quill help a lot
when i ask what is your win con i usually expect to hear:
1- combat damage
2- combo
3- stax
and i dont need to know specifics. it is more of a question are we playing fair magic or munchkin?
Part of the reason why sudden substitution is so great.
Simic Ascendancy + Alchemists Refuge + an X cost creature in my magus lucea Kane deck has won me a surprising amount of games when it's only supposed to be my alternate to smash with big monsters
My alt wincon in that deck is big burn spells with 3+ targets (jaya's immolating inferno, and crackle with power). Works pretty well too when doubled, and doesn't need another piece to not give my opponents a full turn cycle to kill me after I play it.
I do put a decent amount of time figuring out how my deck will win when building it. My current project is updating my food deck using all the stuff from LOTR and WOE and I have a variety of ways to win the game. Most of it is pinging folks with effects like Nadir's Nightblade.
I have been trying for ages to find a 2 color commander that is not commander centric or 6 mana or over to win through passive damage (purphoros god of the forge, impact tremors, goblin bombardment and terror of the peaks like effects) but haven't found one yet that I am happy with , does anyone have any suggestion?
My deck building idea is to decide how i want to win first (combo combat damage, or drain) then look at every card i add to the deck and think how does this help me get to the wincon i chose while having synergy with the commander. My exception is if im building a control deck then its sort of the opposite I focus on how i can control the board then ill work on winning.
even with control, you need to have ways to win in your deck like a recursive or hard to remove big threat, just to actually finish the game and not to drag it for too long.
Most of the time instead of wincon i think of a deck on what's my payoff if i run a banding deck, what can i do with the mechanic that can close out the game (in this case board wipe my opponent every turn), on Ovika, what do i do with my army of goblins, sure i can just make them and go to combat but that is ignoring stuff like goblin bombardment to shoot down everything i need to clear the way, or impact tremors to just kill everyone on a single turn
I have definitely built decks specifically to use a janky wincon card (barren glory/the cheese stands alone, immediately after worldfire was unbanned), but for the most part, my win con is that I want my whole board to be the problem, then I beat face
I build a deck first with an idea of how I can win with it. Depending on the deck I look at combos or not. Sometimes the way I wanted to play the deck changes pending on the synergy of cards I'm looking at. If I win that's the cherry on top, I just want my deck to do it's thing at the end of the day.
My top 4 decks' wincon are as follows:
-darksteel reactor combo (proliferation)
-shrines/combat damage
-combat/commander damage
-aetherflux reservoir combo
You should always have more than one win-con in your deck, if for no other reason than to not have a boring deck. “Oh wow, your elf deck is casting craterhoof behemoth…again 😑”
As a mono green player, my wincon is every one of my creatures is a threat to be taken seriously lol. I have like 5 overrun effects and a few power and toughness doublers.
I usually win by combat but in my ludevic/ olag i win by combo: usually is necrotic ooze copying asmodeus ability and skirge imp allowing me to draw and discard my whole deck then i use 'from the catacombs' to reanimate lab maniac and win.
This is fine as the deck is all about activated ability so is so much in flavour
My win con? Almost always Chandra’s Ignition with some big beefy monster, mine or my opponents’.
Countryside crusher ftw!
I built a 4c Lurrus Companion with Lucas and Will artifact synergy deck and played it a couple times a month without a single win in two years. It absolutely can't win in combat and has no combos (I also think i cast lurrus maybe once lol). It sure did spin its wheels real good though and ad nauseum was a blast.
Im in the process of working some combos into it now, because it is a fun deck with lots of interaction, but it deserves a W once in awhile lol
Open to suggestions for combos. Currently looking at Illusionist's Bracers+Aphetto Alchemist and Thornbite Staff+Goblin Welder and Orcish Bowmasters+Flumph.
Played a game last night where a guy looked at some cards that were milled and was ready to scoop because "all [his] wincons are in the bin." I'm there in colorless jank just like, "My dude, you have creatures and we're all hitting each other. You can make a win."
*shakes head and sighs*
Simic ascendancy is a monster in the merfolk precon
I used to just try to win just through combat damage, like, make a lot of creatures tall or wide, hope I can get through to hit my opponent. For example, I bought the Adrix and Nev precon, where you make tokens then make them bigger with +1/+1 counters -- and that was a horrible strategy. Now my strategy is to make clone tokens of powerful or impactful creatures and Adrix and Nev doubles the tokens. I can still win through combat this way with cards like Biowaste Blob or Scute Swarm or I can win with a card like Biovisionary that I clone with various cards like Mystic Reflection or Quasiduplicate. So my wincon is doubling clone tokens that overwhelm my opponent or just straight up win, like Biovisionary. The clone token part is very important. I don't just make tokens. I clone creatures that give me an advantage and double them with Adrix and Nev. I don't make wimpy tokens and try to make them bigger; it's not a +1/+1 deck anymore. I took all those cards out because it was just too slow. Figuring out my wincon specifically made my deck a lot better. It gave me a focus on which tokens to make and to include clone spells that make clone tokens.
The argument that "combat damage isn't good in commander bc 120 life" has never been valid and I'm glad this video calls it out.
Winning by reducing opponents’ life totals? How banal.
Rayne! Brutal deck to fight against
“What’s for Dinner”?
“Food”. 😊
I am personally a fan of the cockroach strategy:
Step One: don't lose
Step Two: continued adherence to step one will eventually result in victory.
So i have a faldorn deck that makes a bunch of 2/2 wolves, and sure its nice to have wolves, but they rarely have enough power to kill all of my opponents on their own. The deck needs a little more juice sometjmes so i run varius overun effects. They come out of nowhere and buff my army so it can strike. Like sure the deck works with out them, but the overrun effects specificaly are what will win me the game most reliably.
You can imagine making an aristocrats deck with no blood artist effects. That would probably be lacking a win con. You need some way to push through damage or get around blockers or whatever.
If you are running the biggest stuff at the table, you can just smash face. That one is easy.
But there are many kind of decks that people make, that just build up a board pressence and then cant do anything with it. Decks like that usualy need a few specific cards that can make use of the resources they have aquired. Otherwise they have to exclusively hope to get lucky waiting for an opponent to give them an opportunity
I have a really dum hydra deck. Zaxara the Examplery. I tutor for selvala and kami, wisper of hope, then i either play the simic spell that says creatures base power and toughness x/x. Or i play villanous wealth, play the entirety of my opponents deck decking them or play their win con
Best win con: annoy your opponents into scooping a leaving
Not if you ever want to be invited to play again.
I feel that you do your deck a disservice if you build it without a "wincon" in mind.
Of course in non-combo decks you want to deal lethal to all your opponents but you should probably include cards in your deck that will let you win the game off of a decent board state i.e. WINCONS
Make a bunch of creatures, play an Overrun effect.
Make a really big creature, give it evasion.
Play a bunch of artifacts, convert that into damage.
Games of Commander need to end and this way of thinking will mean more of these games will end with you winning.
I think your definition of wincon might be different then most people’s, when I think of a wincon I think of craterhoof or akroma’s will
still though neither of those are any good without alot of creatures.
@@shadowfate05 so does alot of creatures on board itself close out games? of course. the craterhoof just speeds it up, just like the epic struggle. so it's not really your wincon. saying an overrun effect is your wincon is like saying anthems are your wincon. buffing your creatures or giving them trample is not a wincon, your creatures are.
@@shadowfate05 in a aristocrats deck the wincon is blood artist? no, it's all the effects like that. no way you win that game with just blood artist. same thing with any deck using craterhoof. it's not a wincon imo. if you want to call it that fine.
I feel like he's missed the point of the question.
Seems like this is a polarizing video. I can see in the comments that "What's your wincon?" Could be phrased differently. I'd say something like, "How does your deck win, specifically?"
If its not obvious in the command zone what your deck does, there's no way of knowing what kind of game it's going to be or how fast the game will be.
I mean if you play White and your Opponts play a Voltron Deck you just need a Righteous Aura in Play and his Wincon is ineffectiv on you. If you know what you play against the most you can counter that
To go a step further, is it then more important to have blockers in your EDH decks if in each instance here you mention "of course you can swing damage in each of these decks"?
Saying that my ghave deck and my ruric Thar deck or my selvala deck win with the same way just by reducing the life of my opponents of zero I would be lying to the table.
Ghave wants to get to a position I can do everything I want. Milling, death triggers, combat damage. Any weird ass combo ghave enables. Honestly I can't recall winning with combat damage with this deck.
Ruric Thar is true honest smash face
Selvava is either combat damage if I draw that part of the deck. But if I combo out you die with poison damage in instant speed.
My atraxa deck has won against me with simic ascendancy. It can happen.
Now I actually want to build an ashami or teferi mono blue deck and win lab maniac.
They are many ways to win. Even in casual. The amount of junky combos out there is huge. You don't have to win combat damage. Or damage for that matter.
Annoy my opponent into conceding by a turn 1 Thoughtseize.
Scoop.
I try to build decks with damage as primary win con and infinite combos as a fallback plan.
Feather The Reedemed is mostly Voltron, but it can assemble an infinite extra turns combo using Sunforger.
Kardur does his typical goad / ETB payoffs. Dockside Extortionist and Cloudstone Curio can go infinite if my regular value engines are struggling.
Yargle And Multani is oonga boonga aggro and fling, but it's tons of draw power occasionally finds Chain Of Smog + Witherbloom Apprentice.
What is the infinite extra turns combo for feather the redeemed?
@rein_to49 Sunforger uses Tithe to search Mistveil Plains, then Sunforger and Mistveil loop Chance For Glory.
To avoid Chance for Glory's "you lose after taking your extra turn" clause, I run Book Of Exalted Deeds, Angel's Grace, Cloudsteel Kirin, and/or Platinum Angel. Depends on how competitive or casual the game session is.
I typically try not to use infinite combos and limit myself to powerful combos. I give my opponents a chance. Infinite combos make for boring games.
Tortured existence for example in my Imotekh deck where I can play like 20+ creatures a turn. It’s powerful but they could wipe the board (e.g. Farewell), so it’s not an immediate reaction for them to just scoop…
@Dragon_Fyre Like I said, the combos are always plan b. I only go nuclear if my regular strategy is outmatched by a more powerful deck, like stax lockdown or theft / sacrifice. I wouldn't deploy my combos against that Imotekh board, since I consider aggro to be fair play.
@@casketbase7750 I tend to have what I would call optional infinite combos when I include them. So Emiel the Blessed and Peregrine Drake as an example are in my blink deck. They are both effective cards in that deck. I would only use them for infinite mana where I know my opponent has similar power combos in their deck, otherwise I am content to limit their interaction with each other to once a turn and would note that to opponents if there is a rule 0 discussion.
The main reason I dislike infinite combos in EDH, aside from an often anti-climactic end to the game, is it forces people IMO to play Blue so that they have counter spells or to play a CEDH deck where they can get their own win-con before you. You cannot play EDH decks that would win in 7-10 turns by “fair play”, if you expect every game to end to a tutored infinite combo.
Edit: I know people that literally only play with Commanders that allow them to include the “free” blue counter spell staples in every deck (Force of Will, Fierce Guardianship, Force of Negation).
A win condition doesnt boil down to "how does this deck do damage". Thats the standard, every deck has to do damage somehow. A wincon is a method of winning that isnt reliant on dealing damage at all. Imo its a very very narrow definition in this game
I like playing tokens with blood artist effects, less as aristocrats, and more as a "no, please, kill my guy :)". I like making blocking uncomfortable, even against weenies.
My rule of thumb is always have one way to be able to end the game. Doesnt matter how as long as i hear, “im gonna try to win here” or “i could prolly end the game”
I understand your argument, but I think most times when people say this they just mean “put cards in your deck that can end the game for you.” Even though the words “win condition” wouldn’t be taken that way out of context.
My decks usually are very synergy heavy, to the point that i use multiple pieces to soft-lock my opponents, and then they just concede after a while
This is terrible advice. This way of deck building is what leads to run on commander games and do nothing decks. If your win con is beats put some in your deck! The number of games I got stuck at with new players with a bunch of 1/2 and had to watch them durdle for an hour because they couldn't finish the job when they had the table locked down, only to loose when some one top decked an out after 15 turns. Beats is a totally viable plan but out of respect for your opponents be able to end a game in a timely manner.
I struggle with this, so many commanders do fun stuff but dont win off their ability.
Your commander does not have to provide you with a means to win you the game. It's just a game piece to make winning the game easier or providing you access to a certain strategy to win.
It could even be so that the commander just provides the right colors for your game plan.
See your commander more as a tool (which is always available to you) and less as the means of making your deck work
Your commander does not have to provide you with a means to win you the game. It's just a game piece to make winning the game easier or providing you access to a certain strategy to win.
It could even be so that the commander just provides the right colors for your game plan.
See your commander more as a tool (which is always available to you) and less as the means of making your deck work
Smack face with a lot of my creatures
They probably mean what is your burstyest card in the deck.
My main deck is jhoira of the ghitu so what I do is blowup the board and send a giant creature such as a eldrazi to smack my opponent
My favorite deck I've built recently is a deck that I built with a specific wincon in mind. I built a Xyris group hug everyone draws cards deck with the goal of decking out my opponents. Building around that specific wincon allowed me to build a deck that plays in a way no other deck I've built does. I was able to pretty much abandon all offensive cards and build a completely defensive strategy because my goal was to win via deck out. By having such an abundance of defensive cards, I have generally been able to pursue my strategy with great success, though unfortunately I have only won to opponents scooping when they realize they're not able to get through my defenses. Opposition is a very powerful card when you have enough snake tokens to shut your opponents down completely. "before you go to your main phase, I am going to tap 14 snakes to tap all of your creatures and lands"
I think the question should be, “how many infinite win cons do you have”? My main deck has 9 total infinite win cons spread across 8 cards
Wincon? I don't play commander to win.
The frustration of my opponents 😊
My win con is not losing
Hivemind + Eternal Dominion + Deck with no artifacts, creatures, or other enchantments.
My win con is either making my opponent scoop or presenting a combo and then killing myself😂 I hate combat and never swing unless someone is using their life heavily as a resource.
I made a rielle deck and I was like I don't know how I'm going to win then first game swung for with her as 14/3
What's your wincon? Well I hope my opponents bring everyone's life total low enough that I can jump in at the end and hopefully win with some random assortment of creatures.