OVER FERMENTED DOUGH - The Signs and Consequences for your SOURDOUGH
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- In this video we are looking at over fermented sourdough. Is your sourdough too sticky? This is a sign that you might have over fermented your dough during a too long bulk fermentation.
In this video we are looking at what happens to your sourdough when you bulk ferment too long. I'll show you a dough I made where I accidentally fermented too long. Then I will show you what you can expect from the over-fermented dough.
Definitely try to reduce bulk fermentation times a little. Bulk is done when your dough doubled in size. There's nothing much you can do now, try using a little more flour during shaping, alternatively just toss your dough into a loaf pan.
Hope this was helpful! Happy baking.
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#sourdough
Hi, how long did you ferment both dough for? Also are we really waiting for dough to double in size or 30% something? My breads are not as flat as the 2nd one, but I can't get that beautiful spring that you get at 1:30. And I feel like it takes a lot time to double in size.
Hi Sümer,
we want it to double in size for sure. Try proofing in the baneton in the fridge for 24 hours. How much water are you using? What is your kneading technique?
@@the_bread_code Sorry for the late response. This is what my general recipe looks like:
180gr levain/yeast/poolish, 900gr flour (I use around %80 white and%20 whole wheat) and 300 gr water.
What I do is mix water and flour and leave for 1-2 hour autolyse, then mix yeast and salt. I knead for I think around 10-15 minutes with slap and fold, and leave dough to bulk ferment for 4 hours while folding to itself every 20-30 minutes. Then I shape the dough and retard it for probably around 14 hours in the fridge.
I don't know if I'm fermenting too long or short. Or maybe the problem is not good kneading or shaping process.
@@sumer122889 I think 20% levain sounds very good. It feels you are using too little water? 300 grams of water for 900 grams of flour is very little. I would advise to start with 585 grams of water per 900 grams of flour. That would be 65% hydration, then an additional 20% levain. Over all you might be at around 68% hydration then.
Bulk fermentation for 4 hours could be a little short. I'd advise for 5 hours. Does your levain double in size after 6 hours at around 20°C room temperature? That's the activity you want. Then 5 hours bulk is perfect. With 20% levain I retard the dough for 24 hours in the fridge afterwards. It feels like your 14 hours is too short, maybe your fridge is warmer than mine though.
Hope this was helpful.
@@the_bread_codeOh, I had a typo there I meant to write 600 gr. I'll try longer fermentation duration then. My kitchen temp is around 21C, so it doesn't really double in size in 4 hours :D Ty for the advice
@@sumer122889 How active is your starter? Does it double in size after 6ish hours?
I got my started working great & strong. I didn't shorten my preferment times. By the time shaping for my final proof came around, my dough was falling apart & sticking to everything. Live and learn
😩 hot as hell in CA past few days. Made a couple loaves by increasing the autolyse and greatly reducing the inoculation. Man, once that yeast gets going it really takes off. Overnight on a cool counter it more than doubled in size. Need to do this in the daytime to keep a better eye on bulk fermentation. Even a failure is a win because I know what to do next time 🥖
This happened to me yesterday. 😖 I fermented too long and my dough was so sticky it was unmanageable. So frustrating. I’m a beginner & I know it takes a ton of practice of dang what a bummer!
Update?
Try doing it during the day so you keep an eye on it, and there’s ways to save an overproofed dough!
I've actually come to this conclusion about my own bread with the last batch I did. Your videos are some of the best I've seen in terms of breaking down what doing different things means for a dough, and have been very helpful in troubleshooting my breadmaking process. So, many thanks for that.
Not sure whether I'll actually change what I'm doing, though--I will have to do some experimentation--because I really love the dense, chewy body I'm getting, and the loaves come out fine with the Dutch oven to give them form. Plus, I'm still getting at *least* 2x expansion during the bake (or so it seems to my eye). Most of all, though, I absolutely *love* the really sour bread that results! It's just to die for.
Moin Chris. So true. I also like that flavor 🙏🏻. Thanks for the comment.
Tried out my proofing setting on my oven for the first time and think I way over proofed my dough. It got hotter than expected and I did cut the time down between stretch and folds down but not enough it seems. Lesson learned!
Hey Gapeys. Oh yes, that happens quickly. Does your oven also steam the product while it is inside? Great channel you have, subscribed!
@@the_bread_code It doesn't appear to steam but while in proof mode the light remains on and there is a fan that comes on occasionally. The dough got up to 93 degrees so I won't be doing that again. I may just use the light next time. I ended up splitting that dough in half and made crackers out of half and added more flour/water to the other half and just baked it this morning. It tastes good but it was a little flat. Thanks for subbing! I might doe a sourdough bread video at some point. :)
Very helpful thank you! I was wondering why my dough was tearing when I was shaping and this makes sense
Thanks for this info. I just followed a recipe that required the dough double during bulk fermentation. The moment this was achieved, I pulled out the dough and attempted to shape it, but it looked a lot like the dough in your video and was impossibly sticky. It's hard to know what to do when you follow a recipe to the letter and in doing so end up with over-fermented dough.
The warmer the temp of the dough ,the shorter BF takes
This happened to me today. The dough was so sticky I had to scrape it off of the floured countertop.
@@Southernly sourdough journey has utube and website. Has a chart that shows dough temp and how long to ferment and percentage of rise. I temp my dough each stretch and fold. Then base my rise and time based on the temp of my dough . If I use less than 100 g of starter I have to add time to that as it takes longer to BF
"The longer you ferment, the more sour it gets"
Perfect! That's the whole point of sourdough, ain't it cus?
Yes and no. I love the sour taste yep. But over time the acidity is going to damage your gluten network. This means your dough will collapse and become very sticky. Best way to save it, use a loaf pan.
What is the aim of the really wet doughs? I find dryer at 65% rises well but is tougher initially to work with. My protein is 12,8g per 100g. What hydration should I aim for and why ? Tried 80% but dough is flat.
I answered and said, "If I have found favor in thy sight, O Lord, show this also to thy servant: whether after death, as soon as every one of us yields up his soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when thou wilt renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?" 76 He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not be associated with those who have shown scorn, nor number yourself among those who are tormented. 77 For you have a treasure of works laid up with the Most High; but it will not be shown to you until the last times.
78 Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. 79 And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his law, and who have hated those who fear the Most High -- 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways.
81 The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High. 82 The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. 83 The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. 84 The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. 85 The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. 86 The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. 87 The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.
88 "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. 89 During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly. 90 Therefore this is the teaching concerning them: 91 First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.
92 The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death. 93 The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the unrighteous wander, and the punishment that awaits them. 94 The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust. 95 The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days. 96 The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. 97 The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. 98 The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
99 This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter." 100 I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?" 101 He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
102 I answered and said, "If I have found favor in thy sight, show further to me, thy servant, whether on the day of judgment the righteous will be able to intercede for the unrighteous or to entreat the Most High for them, 103 fathers for sons or sons for parents, brothers for brothers, relatives for their kinsmen, or friends for those who are most dear." 104 He answered me and said, "Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisive and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be ill or sleep or eat or be healed in his stead, 105 so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness and unrighteousness." 2 Esdras 2:31
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"All conditioned things are impermanent - when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering.” - The Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 277)
Great explanation! Thank you for this!
Glad it was helpful. You can always safe the dough by just placing it in a loaf pan afterwards!
I have had bakes when a liaf dont rise more than say 10-20% and suddenly looses all control and structure and just like yours becomes sticky mess. When baked its rather flat and crum is very dense with some larger holes. I have had this experience once ir twice of during last years. Like i said, not much dough rise, but very sticky dough!
Could it be that the sourdough those times was too sour. Like the yeast was not very active but bacterias where and started to brake down gluten? This ismy own theory. Do you agree? Or what do you think?
Thank you for this information! I was wondering if you could over ferment.
What happen to the moist dough afterwards? Was it salavage?
What to do to reduce the fermention time? Put in fridge? Or use more starters so it rises faster?
Is there a way to fix this? the gluten strands and yeast are still active on mine, I've dusted some extra flour and did another stretch and fold and it started to rise again. Hopefully it will be usable after baking .
I over fermented my dough over night it got really warm in my house and woke up to a disaster.
Been there!
Went there this very morning
Happened to me today which is why I am searching for help 😅
I did it twice 😢😂
Love your videos!!
Hi Renetta, thank you very much!
Thanks - very helpful.
Moin and Gluten Tag Paul T, you are most welcome! Feel free to reach out with more questions! Happy baking.
Really enjoyed your channel. If the bottom of my crust is a bit dense would you say that means I did not let it proof long enough. I’m using the Tartine bread recipe.
Thank you. Yes, very likely not long enough fermentation, either bulk fermentation or the proofing.
There is something to do once it is really over fermented and sticky?? 😥
I would love to know this too. I am new to this ❤
Thanks again Henrick, for all you do. All say, that to get the sour "tang" in your bread, you need to bulk ferment longer. I don't want to over ferment, But I love the sourness in the sour dough. I can't get my dough to product that sourness. Can you help? I ferment between 25% and 50%, before the fridge. thank you so much. Blessing to you.
I have a new video coming up on the "tang" part. It covers how you can use your starter to change the tang of your final bread.
@@the_bread_code Thank you!
Your videos have been super helpful and have improved my understanding so much. Thank you! However, do you still recommend waiting until the dough doubles in size for all conditions? I have over fermented my dough waiting for this to happen a few times now, even when using a sample jar with a small sample. This is at 75% hydration, 20% levain, and a US AP flour (11.7% protein).
I have successfully baked hybrid doughs (combo of levain and a tiny bit of dry yeast) that easily double in size and behave as expected but the transition to pure levain has been difficult for me.
Moin Lester,
excellent question. I have had consistently better results when lowering the size increase to 50% for lower % protein flours. I might a small table on that in one of my recent no-knead videos. That might be the reason. Also interesting if you think about it, high protein flours can then make a more fluffy bread. Thank you!
It seems that over fermenting may be my problem. I do all the things to work the dough to build strength, but when I get around to shaping, it is sticky and will not hold its shape.
Moin Lee. Very likely, yes 👍
When you say double in size, from what point? After adding the levan?
Yes 👍
But the Caputo Cuoco flour package says you can ferment it for up to 24 hours! Is that too long? I did not put into my fridge, just room temperature.
I think in the fridge after bulk fermentation.
Ya but how do you fix it
The only way is to go ahead and use a loaf pan to fix it.
Just made this mistake. Tastes good but didn't hold its shape.
Yep, it's a 1 hour time-window that you have. In general though the more gluten your flour has, the bigger the time window is. When I realise I screwed up, typically before the last stretch&fold I just take the dough and sandwich bread it directly.
@@the_bread_code What do you mean by sandwich bread it? Is that a technique or do you just bake it and use it for sandwiches
@@oliverbanter1865 moin Oliver. You can take the dough and place it in an oiled loaf pan. That way it will come out like a sandwich bread in the end. The loaf pan will support the shape.
@@the_bread_code Ja Wol, danke shun I will try that. Sorry for my sheize German
Every new sourdough cook: "Why does my sourdough bread come out dense and gummy?"
Every video tutorial who claim to make great sourdough bread:
- too much moisture
- not enough moisture
- not enough proofing time
- too much proofing time
- young starter
- too older starter
- environment too cold
- environment too warm
- use bread flour
- all purpose flour is fine
- feed your starter often
- don't over feed your starter
Been at this 2 years. I'm going back to yeast.
I have lost many loaves of sourdough by trying to use a floured linen to cover a banaton proofed. The linen always sticks to dough. Always. I also have not found ever found a proofing "basket" that does not stick to dough no matter how you flourbor grease it. What am I doing? Everytime the cloth or basket rips the surface strength and destroys the loaf. Please advise
Dusting the basket and cloth with rice flour might help
Rice flour works wonders! If you use ordinary flour it absorbs moisture and hence it sticks.
I use kamut flour and have never had an issue with it sticking 🤷🏻♀️
Rice flour is my go to. I used regular flour on my linen and my dough was just a tad bid sticky to the linen. However, when I used the rice flour directly on the banaton, my dough came off so beautifully nothing was sticking.
I've found silicone bannetons helpful
Does this apply to instant yeast? Because jim lahey’s no knead dough instructs to bulk ferment for 18 hours??
Yep. It can happen. The protease enzyme breaks down the flour at some point.
I think the dough on the right would have been OK if it had had a long autolyse
Dude you didn’t say how long is too long.
Come on maan!😏
Sorry! Too long - your dough becomes a sticky mess. Make sure your sourdough starter does not have that much acid. Try using a 1:5:5 ratio for feeding. It does wonders!
Hi. Ive been making sourdough for fifth time now. (50% wholewheat)Its getting better, with the ear and open crumb. But i still getting 1 same problem every time i bake. As soon as it came out the oven, the exterior is crispy and hard. But after i cool it down for 1 hour and try to cut it, the exterior became softer so when i cut it! It cant hold it shape Its quite hard ti slice. And the knife become sticky. Do i have to bake it longer? Because when i buy sourdough and cut it, the knife cut clean and its easy to cut because its hold its shape.
What temperature and for how long are you baking your bread? Also, try letting your bread cool fully before slicing. It is still baking, even out of the oven, as long as it's warm.
Try baking for longer and lowering the temp to properly dry out the dough
Even when I over ferment, my bread comes out fine. It’s not an exact science.
Is over fermented bread bad for you?
Not at all, it just may not rise as much in the oven resulting in a flatter more dense loaf. Still tastes great!
Cannot hear, and I really need to understand it.
Hi Sally. Is there a problem with the subtitles? Thank you.
@@the_bread_code yes couldn't get the subtitles either
Thanks got it...