Are monochrome cameras REALLY better for Astro?? I TESTED color vs mono AT THE SAME TIME!
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- Опубликовано: 26 окт 2024
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Cuiv! Do you have a 3D printer? I designed a thing and want to share it with the world. Or a PO box I can send it to?
@@Reverend-JT I do have a 3D printer, if you have astrophotography related designs feel free to send to cuivlazygeek at Gmail
I just watched your video. Thank you, it was very interesting. I have another suggestion for comparing mono vs color. For the mono part, use a filter wheel and take LRGB images for 2 hours having nina autofocus the filter changes. Then take 2 hours of data with a color camera using the same exposure time. No narrowband, no channel splitting; just compare the color image results that can be collected within the same 2 hour timeframe. Then compare the added cost of the filterwheel & LRGB filters vs the base cost of the color camera alone. I would be interested to see if the 2 hours of LRGB data produces an image superior to 2 hours of color data and if so, at what cost.
This is a false comparison as you do not need to use a filter wheel and the limit of two hours is a completely made up rule as in the real world you will be imagining over several days and able to change the filters during the day time. Also most people live in light polluted areas and should really be using a narrow band filter so again omitting it is just a made up rule of yours chosen so the camera you bought can win.
Also mono cameras can take good pictures when the Moon is out which is a much larger plus than most people seem to make out.
Yesss! I want to do that - but I currently don't have a filter wheel :/ Will have to look into it!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Well, filter changes with a drawer take only marginally more time to do. But I agree it would be a great comparison.
@@BobJohnsonSince1970 yeah but I can't be asleep when doing the change
I hope to see this comparison as well. However, I don't see cost being relevant at all since my astronomy is not a business and I've spent more on the hobby over the years than I want to consider anyway.
I started with mono then moved to OSC for the simplicity and I am now contemplating going back for the extra gain to be had from mono (and because I have more time than I used to have). However, I think that investing time in getting better at processing pays back quicker with improved results at a much smaller cost than buying more gear. The grass is not greener we just imagine it to be! I think a policy of pushing the equipment you have to the limit before moving on is the way to go. A fascinating video with interesting results.Great work, Cuiv!
I'm exactly the same! Started with mono, went to OSC, and now considering doing mono again, but I probably won't haha
Hi all... Great video Cuiv. I just made the switch to monochrome and am getting much better pictures with both nebulas and RGB. Makes sense after I figured out that a 16Mpixel sensor will give you 16 Million dots in Mono and 4 Million for each of red and blue (8 million in green). My star sizes are smaller and There are MANY more stars with mono as long as you are focused. Not much green in the nebulas so you get to use 2 times the pixels for H and O. Monochrome was worth the money and lightened my rig by putting the guide scope into an OAG with the filters.
Keep up the good work. I couldn't have done it without you
How can you literally post a video every time when I am contemplating on a question? I love this channel and insight given from it
Hahaha I like to have good timing like that :) Glad you enjoyed and thanks for the feedback!
Hey Cuiv! This video has helped lift my morale because this year I've only had 3 cloudless night skies!! So NB is effectively not an option for me, so seeing how well the OSC performed against the NB is very encouraging! Thanks as always for the ace content Cuiv! I'd be lost without yours and other YT'ers educational astro content!
Wes, Liverpool, England.
OSC is definitely very powerful for sure!
Another extremely relevant video, Cuiv! Still in this line of testing, it would be interesting to measure how much additional exposure time with the color camera would be necessary to achieve the same result as the image with the mono camera.
I didnt know i was a channel member until i watched my name scrolling up at the end. Thank you whoever gifted it to me. Keep up the excellent work Cuiv.
You likely got it in a live stream! :D And now you also get priority comment responses hahaha! Cheers!
Probably someone with the same name.
@@Astronurd had my profile picture also.
Thanks for the video Cuiv. I recently made the jump to Mono purchasing complete used setups off Cloudy Nights. So far processing my first few mono images I found them to be easier then my former OSC images.
Awesome to hear! Enjoy your mono setup!
Great video, thank you Cuiv! I was kind of thinking the gap would be bigger between the mono and colour so makes me feel better for sticking with my colour setup, lol. Having said that, the combined version did look great!
Thanks! Yep, OSC is still incredible :)
That image combined was quite impressive! Fun experiment and great video!
Thanks Mark!
Nothing lazy about any of your videos good Ser. My understanding is that color sensors are prone to color bleeding perhaps (or not) explaining the prevalent red in the color camera. My takeaway is I can be lazier with a color camera and I love that ❤
Great video! I have both types with the mono being my latest purchase. Once the fun of mono wares off, it will be great to have the color camera to go back to when I just want to get all of my data at once. I almost enjoy monochrome without color added. I just took a pick of The Elephant Trunk Nebula and left it in monochrome and WOW! I love it!!
Nice! It's good to find joy in the hobby regardless of the camera used :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek most definitely! I’ve seen amazing pics regardless of camera type.
Another great video Cuiv! You are AWSOME!
Having experience with the 533MCp and 2600MCp and 2600MMp cameras on the same scope there is no doubt in my mind that mono is the way to go if equipment cost is not an issue. Less integration time, easier processing, better detail and SNR. However, OSC does have its place and can also give great results. Much better for EAA as well.
Good summary Mike, cheers!
Another great video! Anecdotally, I've noticed even in light polluted skies that you can get solid images with a color camera. Persistence is the deciding factor to boost signal/noise.
Agree!
Very interesting Cuiv, thanks.
My pleasure!
Hi Cuiv, I went the opposite direction. I started out with a very expensive QSI 683 WSG-8 mono camera with the built in OAG and filter wheel which made it the simplest mono setup on the planet, but often fell foul of if the weather and would start capturing my Ha, but then it might be another 1 month before I could complete the SII and OIII data. So my data sets often ended up highly cropped just to get everything to align properly. In the end I got sick of it literally taking months to complete a single image, so ended up quitting the hobby for many years. I recently started again and I’m OSC all the way now as it’s just soo much simpler.
Good point - to some extent, mono can be a money killer!
Great video @Cuiv! I started off with a mono setup and so I don't know how much easier it is with OSC but I found I got very comfortable with mono - very little frustration (I have a filterwheel which is a must). My few frustrations were mainly around consistent focusing between narrowband and LRGB, but after switching to NINA, I was able to address those subtleties. Keep up the great content!
The NINA advanced sequencer is just SO GOOD for monochrome cameras!
Very pretty results
Thank you!
Great video Cuiv. I currently use both mono and osc.
The best compromise :)
I have done this type of comparison 2 years ago with ASI294MC vs ASI294MM. Since then, I never used color camera and switched from ZWO to QHY cameras and filter wheels.
Those are technically two different sensors when binned at 1X1. I found the 294MM a pain when taking flats. Sold it and went back to all OSC. However I might consider a 2600MM or 6200MM.
My first thoughts when seeing the surprising difference... I think there's the band pass width difference showing up in the monochrome camera. So I have to blame part of the hazyness on the different filters. Maybe you addressed that later. 👍👍
The grass is always greener on the other side! And it's always softer, juicier and tastier to chew on and more velvety to lay out on if you have to trespass to get it... 😜
In theory though the bandpass for the monochrome cameras are worse :p
@@CuivTheLazyGeek corrected kiddie to juicier... What the heck was my phone thinking!?
Excellent video as always. I was able to pick out the monochrome image from the lineup. The overall results were also about what I expected them to be. I've been shooting with a monochrome camera exclusively since 2019. However, I will still get a osc camera in the future for EAA and solar system targets.
Nice! I was impressed by the gap between OSC and mono to be honest!
Hi Cuiv,
Again, great video!
I'm currently into shooting dark nebulas in the Cepheus region. I'm very happy I made the move to mono LRGB.
To speed up the imaging process, I set up a NINA sequence looping LLLRGB then dither (3x more L, then 1R, 1G and 1B then dither) using offsets for the focuser (no need to rerun autofocus after each frames). I'm impressed about the SNR we can get, although I must say I have a Bortle 4 sky.
The main issue is with 120s frames during our short summer nights, I can end up with only ~20 dithering steps which will not allow to drizzle well each channels. I need 2 nights or maybe shoot 60s frames only.
That's the best strategy! Although you could also insert dithers in between the colors as well no? I'm so jealous at your Bortle 4 :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Intersting suggestion, thank you!... Or, i could try a loop LLLRGB and dither after each L frames only. theorically, I should have a free dither for all RGB? I will give a try, and maybe it's not so interessting to drizzle RGB anyway (only L matters!) :)
Great video, as always! I still think that mono is way lazier than color. I normally take Lum from dark site, like Cherry Springs. Normally it is enough to get just one or two nights of Lum data to get high quality foundation for an image. Then I would take RGB from Bortle 6-7 home or nearby Bortle 4 site. If image also needs to have some Ha or OIII component, then I would take that from home, even during bright moon period. Taking image with same quality using color would require multiple trips to truly dark site.
Hi Cuiv and first congrat's to all your videos !!! I just bought a imx585 cooled color camera and this is fabulous on my 102/820 old refractor :))) But i think the best would be to have one color and one monochrome cameras to do "lazy" LRVB !!! that's what i made some years ago with webcams, and that gaved me excellent results, so i want to try that with the new cmos cameras... :))) Astrobond from France ;)
Mister Bond! Hahah mono for luminance, color for RGB, that works! I'll need to try that!
Nice video as always! The way I see it more and more is that the hobby starts in easy form using OSC. Then you upgrade this and that and at some point you might feel stuck and hobby becomes boring. Then you switch to monochrome. Not that you need to technically, but just to learn something new and have fun again. I am still happy with OSC and some narrowband filters but I am afraid one day…
Having fun it what matters!
OMG Cuiv don't know if you remember but I commented a few videos ago asking why you eventually chose osc over mono cos I was struggling to choose between them I CANT CLICK ON THIS FAST ENOUGH. Love your content 😍
Hahaha I hope the video was helpful!
You certainly give yourself some hard challenges Cuiv, great video thanks. Last year I took the same object in SHO with my mono camera (ASI183mm pro cooled). The results were so weird I scrapped the picture, however after seeing your results I have new hope and plan to revisit that data again and accept the colours are weird cmp. with the same object taken on aOSC camera (ASI533MC pro cooled) with a UHC filter on.
Great video, love your passion for the hobby.
Thank you!
My first ccd camera was a ST 237 SBIG camera with internal motor driven rgbL tiny filter wheel. Later I moved on to other cameras but always mono. My "last" ccd mono was a fullframe observatory grade SBIG CCD camera with Lrgb and NB 2" filters internally mounted in motor driven cassetes. That now is in observatory use only with either 12" Hyperstar or 6" APO refractor.
Many of my photos were multi day or in a couple of cases multi year projects. One image used two different scopes in two different states in the US over three years.
Two years ago I decided to get a more portable set up. It is all ZWO... AM5 mount, EAF, OSC camera, guide camera, and ASI AIR Plus. The scope is either a 80mm APO refractor or 8" Hyperstar. I can take from my car setup, polar aligned and cooling and ready to image in 15 minutes or less. Here in Michigan that is a huge advantage in imaging time. We don't have lot of days of clear skies or comfortable weather like I had back in California. I can take several great images in a night or two from even my back yard.
To me that is the advantage of OSC. I am 77 years old and that light travel setup is so nice. I still use the other equally... but not for remote imaging.
There is a difference in image quality but processing can minimize it.
This video made me happy for choosing OSC as my first camera. The added cost and things to be a pain the a$$ when they fail, is not worth it. It is however, better to have both at some point. 😊 thanks Cuiv
Thanks Jose! OSC is for sure easier, less likely to fail (fewer things it depends on) AND it's more fun to see color images roll in rather than monochrome :)
Interesting video Cuiv. I have both mono (294mm) and OSC (2600mc) cameras. The OSC is easier to use and I get comparable results with an L-Ultimate duoband filter. The mono camera is more flexible and I prefer it when going after targets with significant Sii. Mono is definitely more expensive when you factor cost of filters and it’s more work taking multiple sets of flats and dark flats.
Good summary!
Trevor Jones (AstroBackyard) claimed that he sees ~14% better final images using the Monochrome over the OSC version of the same camera / sensor, with a longer total imaging time using the Monochrome camera. To him its worth all the extra money, effort, and time per final image. (his skys are better than Tokoyo's)...
When your young for many time isn't as important, your more competitive, tend compare yours with others, and your vision is better (many strive to be the best), BUT when you get older for many time is more precious, competition isn't as important, and your vision is not as good (many realize that good enough for you, is good enough)...
As with anything in life, The Best, is what's Best for You!
Geek On, Cuiv! 🍺🍻
Makes sense to me! Cheers!
Currently using a mono camera and I really like bringing out the sii, oiii, and h-alpha data in my deep sky photos. Thanks for doing this comparison. I have always wanted to the see difference between the two.
Thanks Jeff! There is a lot of fun to have with monochrome cameras, especially in narrowband!
My experience of shooting in the city with a color camera Touptek IMX 571 in combination with two-band filters H_O S_O 6 nm, says the following: in terms of signal accumulation time, this is comparable to the technology of working on a mono sensor. If you make the total accumulation time less than 6 hours per object, then you will go broke on paid processing programs))), and if you want to create a panorama, then you will die accumulating and processing. Therefore, a mono sensor is a clear choice for a polluted city sky, but a color sensor for a suburban sky is more than suitable for saving time.
Yep, sounds like good advice!
I tend to think a more fair (and probably interesting) comparison would be on a non-NB target - like a galaxy; that way you also take out of the equation the efficiency/quality of dual band filters, which is part of what you tested here. I personally default to a monochrome camera for NB imaging; for RGB imaging I typically first give a shot at the target with a color camera, and only if what I see seems to deserve I then switch to the monochrome camera going through the lrgb filters.
monochrome *can* be a pain in the butt on a broadband target, like if some telescope produces different star sizes per colors- so combining lrgb would produce awful looking stars and there isn't any procedure that I know of that first balances out all star sizes, before combining the LRGB channels. Matter of fact, I end up removing the stars from the luminance channel before I combine, because they do more damage than good.
I typically process stars (both in NB and broadband) separately, and when shooting monochrome I do not use luminance at all for them - not sure I see any benefit of including it for stars. In terms of star sizes across the three RGB filters, I have never experienced problems; if R or B have a bigger star compared to the other, I end up realizing later that I am indeed dealing with a red or blue star...
Yep, I want to try that next, but I need LRGB filters AND an EFW...!
I did a similar test recently on the North America Nebula, using the ASI533MC as the colour camera and the SV605MC for the mono camera, although over two separate nights. Both images turned out similar, but the red for Ha stood out a lot more from the mono version
Interesting! And more apples to apples, although separate nights also make comparison difficult - still great to know the images are similar!
Hey Cuiv, Another great video. My 2 cents is I don’t think you have to choose. I think the night and your circumstances will determine when to use and not to use monochrome or OSC. As you have pointed out many times this hobby is a money pit, and after enough time in acquisition ( both equipment and data), we tend to find ourselves at a point where we have most of the things (equipment knowledge and experience) that we should be able to choose either or even both. I definitely agree with you though, osc is the way to start, as the cost and complexity (and ensuing frustration) is significantly less. In my personal circumstances I don’t get many chances to setup, so I try and get away when I can for multiple nights in a dark sky location. Because of the vagaries of the weather, I try and capture what I can first night in osc, and if I’m lucky to get more clear nights, I move to monochrome.
Yep, agree!
18:36 - but you raised the black point. Surely that would reduce the faint extremities. Apologies for the multiple comments, but you did encourage us to reply in RT lol.
Edit. Fantastic image BTW!
I processed to the best of my ability both! I just could not get the same faint extremities in OSC as I could mono!
Great video, Cuiv! I played the pause and answer game, and while I was at it, added a couple additional thoughts ;)
05:46 - I predicted the monochrome camera will look better.
08:59 - I think the top images are monochrome? Both sets look good and it's closer than I thought honestly.
10:16 - I agree, I think the SNR is better with mono, especially for the faint areas.
21:28 - Yep! Been there. As mentioned, a filter wheel and focuser helps!
24:11 - I feel that the main thing is, does the astrophotographer enjoy using a OSC? If yes, no copium needed!
24:21 - I prefer mono. But I went straight from DLSR to mono instead of DSLR to OSC. There is more flexibility and sensitivity with mono, imo. Having said that, I've seen OSC users blow my images away thanks to their skills in framing, processing etc.
Great image! Thanks!
Thanks Mark! Yep, I agree on all points! I enjoy OSC, so I am on a minimum dosage of copium. I had to take an additiona pill of copium at lunch time after doing this test though!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Mono can get addicting!
Great video, Thanks for this test 👍
My pleasure :)
Merci Cuiv! Tu fais vraiment de bonnes vidéos, continue comme ça.
Merci beaucoup JB!
Great video and a lot of good comments. My one thought is to repeat but swap the cameras on the scopes for that comparison. You would still have apples to pears with the different pixel sizes and filter bandpasses but would be cool to see the mono image vs color done under swapped f ratios and telescope differences. I would suspect you would see the same conclusion…
Hi Cuiv, this has been a very helpful experiment. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Cuiv! Great video as always. In my personal opinion, a comparison with the ASI585 is not fair.....that camera is extremely sensitive at the low end of the spectrum. But it's a great experiment nonetheless goes to show how far we've progressed in sensor technology, something that should be 4 times more efficient is actually not 4 times as good 😂
Apples to pears! I did my best ;)
Hey Cuiv! Another one to keep in mind is that the color camera has an extra disadvantage if you are using a refractor (that is not a perfect apochromat).
And then, all colors will not focus exactly at the color sensor image plane... With a mono camera, every color filter focuses independently, so that should not be a problem.
Very true as well! Being able to refocus between filters is a huge advantage!
Great video Cuiv as always- perhaps it can be summed up by the enhanced WOW factor of the mono camera, when the final image is completed. However, I do wonder about OSC..........having only used a Mono camera!
Great video as always sir. I'm putting a shopping list together and I've been wondering how big of a gap there is. I think I'll start simple since I'm more new to astrophotography I think I'll go with the 585 color. And it seems to pair well with the scope I've chosen the askar 103APO. Love the content, man
That's going to be an awesome start 103APO + 585, beautiful combo for nice details!
@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks sir. Done a fair bit of research, and this seems like a good beginner combo. Good to hear your stamp of approval haha. 👌
Great video, thanks! Focal ratio doesn't matter - aperture is everything. The major difference here is the pixel size - larger pixels pick up photons more quickly and therefore register values quicker. I prefer mono, but I will be honest that OSC is so much simpler. I have the SV705C and I've gotten great results. The big thing with that is that it doesn't have glow - calibrating an uncooled camera with glow is really difficult.
Thank you! And I agree OSC is just so much easier! I made a different video on the topic, focal ratio does matter since the focal length determines how much to spread the photons captured by the aperture, so it has a similar impact as larger or smaller pixels :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Yes, if you look at it as focal length - so a smaller sensor with shorter focal length and larger sensor with longer focal length, but it doesn't change the exposure time as is the popular belief. Ideally your sensor should be able to capture the entire image circle to capture all photons.
Keep up the good work on your videos! Your results with the 6" are inspiring! I think I will be tuning my 8" in the cloudy months coming.
Hello Cuiv! I have the 533mono and I also got a 071mc pro color. Funny thing is, I bought the osc camera after I bought the mono. I don't have a a lot of clear nights for 3 years now and while the mono is nice and all, The color camera just let's me go right at the target and image away. I KNOW I can make nice image with the mono, and done it many times, but due to the lack of clear nights for years now, when I image, I just want to get it running and walk away from it. If I know for sure there will be clear nights and more than one in a row, or I get a chance to image multiple times a week and month, then I pull out the mono camera. Otherwise, 3-4hrs darkness during summer and 50% of chance of clouds makes me prefer to use the osc camera.
Yes the laziness you can achieve with a color camera is unmatched!
Thanks for the effort to compare monochrome and oneshotcolor results. I think, for me, with a limited budget for astroimaging equipment, since I am not going to make $$$$ on printing my images or get my image in a high end science paper, I can live with my oneshotcolor camera and enjoy the journey and the results. To each there own, in this case. I have to admit that I was thrilled with your results from the oneshotcolor camera! Great job, Cuiv!
Great stuff again ty
There's additional things to consider. Most color cameras have complex bandpass transmission functions (the wavelengths of light the filter lets in) that let in light from wavelengths that you might not find desireable (when shooting RGB) or might just not have the best transmission overall. For example its very common for the blue and green channels of these one shot color cameras to let in color on the blue and far red side (past halpha. Around i band), which is not desirable
But when shooting mono you can use SDSS or Johnson filters which are much more regulated and have very high transmission.
Yep, you're absolutely right (it's one of the reasons I was so surprised to see how cleanly we were able to separate Ha and OIII with the OSC camera!)
True but then if you are shooting H alpha why not just stack the three channels? Solves the problem
20 years ago, I bought a 2Mp SBIG cooled monochrome camera (with integrated 2nd guide sensor), SBIG’s filter wheel, and L, R, G, B, and Ha filters. It was expensive. I didn’t have autofocus, and a lot of software wasn’t well developed back then. I did alternate filters on every sub-frame after the first time I wasn’t able to capture a complete set of colors. I also drizzled. It was expensive and a lot of work. I sold the camera as 6Mp and 8Mp started to come down in price from extreme to only expensive. But outside of eclipses, I pretty much gave up on the hobby. I’m now getting back into it due to the simplicity afforded within the ZWO ecosystem. So far, I’m using my Fuji 26Mp mirrorless camera and a 48mm HaO3 filter (SV220) screwed either in front of camera lenses or within my T-adapter if using my old scope. I’m about to buy the ZWO ASI2600 camera, so your video is perfect. I think I will go the lazy/cheap route with the color version. I’m also going to buy two scopes designed for imaging: the RedCat71 and Askar FMA180. Also the ZWO EAF. I already bought the AM5, ASI Air Mini, and ASI120 guide camera. It’ll be a portable and fun setup. Now I hope SVBony adds another low-cost filter for S2O3 so I can do Hubble color palette. Love your videos!!!!
I'll have a video about the upcoming ZWO ASI2600MC Air camera soon by the way :)
And yes a SIIOIII SvBony filter would be great!
Thanks!
Woohoo, thank you for your support!!
Such an excellent video as usual ! I learned a lot. I am an the OSC, despite the fact that my sky is of much better quality than yours in Tokyo. Simpler as you say and somehow cheaper. Merci !
Nice. Color definitely seems "good enough" for casual use. Now i gotta look back at camera comparison videos to see how "budget" of a sensor I'd be willing to accept.
If you have deep pockets I think it’s best to have both. Mono and osc camera. E.g. osc for comets and galaxies and other broadband targets and mono for all of your narrowband where you need to extract extra data.
Agree!
Can...worms...open...😉Excellent video Cuiv. OSC cameras are far easier and cheaper to use and produce fantastic results. I think when it comes to cost vs results OSC is hard to beat. However, I have both the ASI2600MC and ASI2600MM cameras and do see a significant difference in my images. So much so that all my rigs are now mono. That comes at a considerable expense so it isn't for everyone.
Do you think using both cameras (mono with luminance filter and OSC with narrow band filters) on the same target could be a good compromise between a full OSC equipment (cheaper, more "lazy" and less sharped results) VS a full mono equipment (more expensive, less practicle but sharper) ?
@@Astrorun That's quite a common approach for LRGB imaging, but I'm not sure if there is much benefit for narrowband as you really want to capture the isolated wavelengths rather than the broad spectrum that luminance gives you (although I haven't tried it).
@@petesastrophotography Ok thank you for your response.
Hahaha can of worms opened indeed! And I fully agree with your analysis. I was actually surprised at how much a difference I saw with this test! But yes monochrome cameras are more expensive, add the EFW, EAF becomes a must, add all the filters, and things start to get expensive and complicated in a hurry!
Think about a single group of 4 pixels with and without Bayer filter pattern. Say with 100 photons per second per pixel per colour filter and, imaging for 3 seconds total, and look at how many total photons are received in red, green and blue. Bayer sensor. Red pixel 300. Green pixels 600. Blue pixel 300 photons. Non Bayer sensor: red filter 1 second at 400 photons. Green 400. Blue 400. Total photons is the same . 3x read noise in the non Bayer sensor ( 3 exposures required). But signal to noise is unequal in the Bayer sensor since there are 2 green pixels ( 600 photons) versus 1 red and 1 blue ( 300 each).
Excellent explanation!
@@CuivTheLazyGeekand thank you for your great videos!
Well I think this video finally helped me decide on going with a color camera for my first venture into astrophotography. If it's got very close to the same quality as a monochrome and I can save money by not having to buy a filter wheel, it seems like the right decision for me.
Yeah, OSC is just so much easier to use!
I think you nailed it: Simpler is the word with OSC. Otherwise go mono to squeeze out all the signal available to you for each unit of time available, if money is no object that is 😂 OSC might be more manageable in certain cases though, like for comet imaging for example, so many things could go wrong in that case with a mono camera... just my 2 cents ;) Great videos as usual Cuiv, cheers!
Good point with things like comets!
Very nice work many thanks for your advices in making us better astrophotographers it's very rewarding 😁 ..I'll leave my comment on this:
Unfortunately with the actual and future costs standardization trend of having all new sensors with same pixel pitch more resolution means only wider area.. applying only a Bayer matrix(osc) let us collect only about 75% of the visible luminance since the blue and the green curves of the sensor when they cross around 475nm leave a gap on the upper area under the solar radiation curve ..it's a part we are able to see under our scotopic curve
Excellent comparison! Quick thought…at which point did you do gradient removal? If you did gradient removal on the combined rgb OSC image vs on individual H and O channels for the mono cam, maybe that changed the signal between the two images and brought out more Oiii?
Thank you for all that you do for us!
Good point! I did gradient removal immediately, so something else to try, thanks Jeff!
@@CuivTheLazyGeekwould be cool to compare the gradients between mono and OSC channels, too!
I really would have expected a larger difference... Very interesting!
Hahaha and I expected a smaller difference! It was a lot of fun to try!
Cuiv, It would be great if you did a comparison with a modern mirrorless camera. Modern sony mirrorless have newer sensors than astrocams, and maybe that could offset somehow the lack of cooling.
Any specific model in mind?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek From Sony, any new model with the star-eater problem fixed: A7rV,A7CII,A7rc. From Canon/Nikon any model without stacking sensors (they trade speed for noise): Nikon Z6II, Nikon Z7II, Canon R6, Canon R5. Anyway, ideally a model with a modern Sony sensor because (i) it would allow a better comparison con astrocams, (ii) they are the cutting-edge in sensor technology.
The "how do you cope with a color camera" jab by astrophotographers is the common thread of every hobby I've been in: gate keeping. Even though it's a hobby, people have to crap on how you do things, or your equipment, and I don't get it. OSCs have a place for people like me. I take great pics and share them with friends who are amazed. I hope one day to upscale my whole rig with a monochrome camera, but for now it's great.
I went from monochrome to OSC myself for the simplicity :)
It Is about time we are using technology in a more fulfilling way. The insight, passion and generosity expressed in this channel is inspiring and in my opinion any person that has this kind of technical expertise should share what each has learned and how they understand their hobby, work or disposition.
Thanks! Very cool comparision. I am in the progress of switching to a touptek imx571m soon. I've eyed on the Antlia filters with a touptek efw (pretty cheap!). I just noticed i can use 36mm unthreaded filters and don't need to go with more expensive 2". I think it is worth because getting DNB filters isnt cheap either and before i spend 500$ on the sharpstars C1+C2 i can get a full RGBSHO from antlia as well.
I saw some not so positive comments on the Touptek efw on Cloudynights. You may wantte check that out before you purchase it.
Nice! I might need to get myself a Touptek EFW :D You can use 36mm unthreaded filters, but that's going to be quite pushing it with an APS-C size sensor - it does depend on your focal ratio though (maximum incidence angle) - I have an old video somewhere about figuring out which minimum filter size you need depending on distance to sensor, focal ratio, and sensor size!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks! I made sure it is enough, had it calculated using the website. As the EFW is relatively thin and directly in front i have a margin of 3-4mm at F5 and with the planned Straizona Nexus reducer 1.5mm spare at F3.5. Planning on getting the Antlia 4.5mm bandpass filters to have enough room for the faster F ratio shift in bandpass.
Well, I just learned about DBextract to isolate the individual channels with an OSC camera. Now, I have to go back and reprocess an emission nebula to see if it improved.
Honestly I think people should just go with what they enjoy the most. I moved from a DSLR, so a dedicated cooled camera is already a massive upgrade, and I'm getting far more signal per hour than I was with my DSLR. I'm sure I'd have fun with a mono camera as well, but I'm with the other folks commenting from areas with unpredictable skies in that OSC guarantees that even if things cloud over, I have fully usable data every night I shoot.
Completely agree!
I use my colour camera to add stars to my mono HOO data. Working well..few examples on my channel.
Nice idea!
I use both (2600MC and 268M). I use the 268M because of narrowband. And the OSCs are just better travel cameras as well. They've each got a place in my arsenal.
I own a monchrome camera und like it. Especially to develop Hubble palette images (SHO) is a big advantage!
Yes SHO is a lot easier with monochrome! Although it's possible with OSC as well
I get that mono is better but I’ve always struggled with having to juggle multiple filters. Sometimes one filter will have halos and need to be replaced, and then the replacement will also have halos, and on and on. Also the need to take flats for each filter. I just have a more pleasant experience with OSC.
If you get high-quality filters, you really shouldn’t have to deal with halos. Typically, most people are using filters on one shot color camera most of the time as well and I tend to see more halos with multi-bandpass filters
@@rvoykin Halos with Chromas have been documented.
Yeah there is definitely a lot more effort that goes with the initial setup with a mono camera!
A difference between your cameras is there QE response across the spectrum. The 585 has a higher QE for the Ha and S2 wavelengths than the 533. I have noticed this in my images after having a 294 sensor and switching to the 533. It feels like i took a hit to my S2 signal.
personally, I see no issue with not having an electronic filter wheel with mono, because to get a good results from a city the imaging time should be at least 3-4-6 hours per channel, then it means one night is basically one channel. Then It's not a problem to use a cheap manual filter wheel, switch it once in the beginning of the session, do the manual focus, do the shooting, capture flats and be done for the night. Next day shoot the other channel, etc. If do the broadband from some Bortle 2 location, where you need to switch filters every 20 min, then yep, 350$ wheel and 200$ auto focuser is the way
The biggest problem doing NB for us UK astro imagers is the weather. In the 2.5 years I've been doing astro, I can't remember more than one occasion where I've had 2 consecutive cloudless night skies. In fact, this year alone, I've had just 3 cloudless night skies! ALL YEAR!! So I basically don't have the option of NB over different nights, it's painful! lol.
@@wesleydonnelly2141 omg. I live in Poland, we have similar weather in autumn-winter, but in summer, it can be easily 3-5 clear nights in a row
@@wesleydonnelly2141 From UK in London and currently on my fourth consecutive clear night.
@@wesleydonnelly2141 Same thing happening in New England USA- The east Coast is the most unreliable as far as weather and having more than 1 clear night in a row would be sort of a miracle. It wasn't like this but the last 3 years is an absolute bust when it comes to imaging. Plenty of time happened to me that i had all the Hydrogen alpha, but missing the other 2 completly, because the rest of month had zero clear nights and by the time there was another, the target was out of my view. I go as far as if someone would ask me if I would pick this hobby up today, I would probably tell them that it would be such a waste of money for all the equipment when there are so few starry nights?
@@borovikmotion wow I’d love that over here my friend!
Great video! My name is Green! Time to make that permanent!
Hahaha, sounds good!
I think you must change your "nick" to "Cuiv The Eager Geek" 😂 Not "going mono" and not having an EFW is "lazy" I guess. 😊You seem to always come up with new content that is right on time with what I want to know😍 A recent post by "The Space Koala" made me "invest" in mono gear recently, which was quite expensive, and it is absolutely not possible to be "lazy" with that setup. I have not started using it yet, just verifying the hardware/software (ZWO) on a "test bench" (read: living room table), but the processing part of mono just looked too interesting to not trying that also. Your comments about being dependent on long consecutive dark/clear nights for mono image sessions make mono imaging a "risky" project though. Where I live that is not something to be expected. I seldom have more than a couple of hours with clear skies in a given nightly session.
To be fair you CAN be lazy with monochrome, but the initial setup is quite some work. You need:
- an EAF
- an EFW
- all the filters that should be parfocal if using an OAG
- in NINA compute the filter offsets (so you don't need to refocus per filter)
- in NINA setup your default AF filter (so you can do AF with the brightest filter, and then reach correct focus for your imaging filter using the offsets)
- use NINA to circle through the filters
Once that's done, it's just as lazy as OSC, but boy is it some initial work!
I have noticed that the sensitivity on the red spectrum of the 533mono sensor is less than the blue/green spectrum. The QE charts also represent this. I have the Playerone version of the 533mono.
That makes sense, thanks for chiming in!!
Monochrome here. I still have a color camera I plan to use for trips to dark sites, but after seeing a single H-alpha frame from a mono camera under Bortle 9 skies, I knew that color camera was largely going to live in its case. The difference on the same target (Rosette Nebula) was night and day. Perhaps there was some amount of user error here, but the additional complexity of using a mono camera was not a stumbling block for this guy who has a solid 50% accuracy rating in telling left from right.
The monochrome camera is an order of magnitude better but for me it has to be the OSC. It’s just so much easier overall and as long as I’m not looking to produce award winning shots, it gives great results.
Yeah I just find OSC simply... more enjoyable I guess!
So far, I've always used color cameras, though I admit, now that I have better skills and equipment than a few years ago, I harbor an attraction to Monochrome.
In the end, I realized I resemble a mini-me of the Lazy Geek, with emphasis on the Lazy part, so I suspect I will stick with color...
Hahaha OSC definitely helps with the laziness!
What about getting a luminance layer with the mono and the rgb color layer from the Color camera, and combine them in PI?
That's an excellent suggestion! I'll try that at some point :)
Great video, Cuiv. Thank you! So, taking this to another level when considering SII and trying to combine data from two different OSC images vs. combining S, H, and O images from a mono setup, what do you think? I currently use Antlia Ha/OIII and SII/Hb filters for my color setups and, to be honest, don't always seem to get great results when trying to combine data from those two images. Often, things just seem more consistent when I use my mono setup with S, H, and O images. Just wondering if you have an opinion, or preference, when throwing SII into the mix. Thanks again!
Have you tried the script "DBXtract"? that seems to work very well - although yes due to the nature of bayer patterns, monochrome will ALWAYS win at properly separating S, H, and O
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I haven't tried DBXtract yet, Cuiv. I will give that a shot, though! Thanks.
I suspect that the 533 Qe peaks at 500nm and the 585 peaks at about 650nm partly explains the stronger Oiii signs in monochrome version and stronger Ha signal in the colour version,
Yep that's right - I should have used the 571 OSC instead of the 585... Sigh. Oh well, maybe next time!
Hi Cuiv. Sorry to be a pain but to double check. you could swap the cameras round and do this again to see how things differ with the scopes/ camera type.
just to make more work for you. lol
Yesssss, another thing to do lol
The visual of you sitting between two imaging newtonians sparked a question in my mind: What is the advantage of imaging newtonians over SCTs or refractors? Is it the generally lower f-ratios? Prior to the broad availability of harmonic drive mounts where balancing isn't as critical I have to imagine that imaging newtonians were awkward and difficult to balance on tradition GEMs. Do the new harmonic drive mounts paired with imaging newtonians create a system that is better than traditional SCTs and Refractors on GEMs?
Option 3 for me: I use both :D
The results are a bit surprising though.
The difference in the OIII is way higher than I was expecting (or that I can measure myself on my equip). It is a misconception that the OIII is only taken by the blue channel, on the contrary a lot of it ends up in the green channel as well (confirm it yourself by splitting RGB on a color camera with OIII filter).
As for the Ha you are compensating more than you may think. Yes, the color takes only 1/4 of the signal but... the IMX585 is a STARVIS 2 sensor which is way more efficient in capturing the red part of the spectrum than the 533 (98% minus whatever is lost on the Bayer vs 56%).
I fear the list of differences between the two setups is more in the Apples vs Banana regime :D
I would suggest trying to do two nights in a row using the same OTA on a relatively bright object that has well distinct Ha and OIII areas.
Thanks Nevril! Yeah the QE can come into play for sure! Could compare the 533Mono to 571Color since those are effectively the same/different sensor sizes
I agree - he is assuming that the spectral response curves of the colour camera pixels don't overlap but they do I suspect that is why the mono camera does better in the narrow band than the colour. What he should do is run the colour camera with a filter wheel and shoot it as it were a mono, then separate and stack the colour frames. So take with H alpha only, split the RGB and then stack. I suspect you will see a marked improvement. Maybe not as good as the mono, but better - especially if you actually flat field them!
Hi Cuiv! Thank you for tackling this topic! I have always wondered, especially now when deciding my next camera, about the factors to consider. I am curious what you meant (~ 20 minutes in) by artifacts with Bayer drizzling. Would the artifacts be due too low subframe counts for decent drop shrink factor or something else?
Based on our limited clear nights here, colour is the only practical option for me. Mono is clearly better, but not enough better to justify all that the extra cost and time. Great unbiased comparison.
In the four image comparison I was able to tell the difference between the two sensors by looking at the diffraction spikes on the stars. They are longer for the monochrome which is indicative of collecting more data per shot. I wonder if you compared 3-hours of OCS to 1-hour of monochrome if the same differences would exist?
Interesting - I've been using a monochrome 294mm for about 2 years...I've had some great results but I've also had many many nights where I've collected half the data I need to to make a complete image and then between weather, moon and life phases missed the window of opportunity to finish the job. I'm about to click buy on a OSC camera.
G'day Cuiv, Smaller pixels don't mean more resolution. That is image scale, not resolution. Resolution is determined by the aperture of the instrument used.
Eeeeh, I'd argue potato pot-ah-to. There's the optical resolution limit of course, there's the pixel scale, and many (including me) use resolution and pixel scale interchangeably when referring to pixel size.. since after all, smaller pixels can *resolve* smaller details (assuming within the optical resolution limits)! As long as it's clear in the context, I think we're good. In the end it's all about the solid angle that each pixel sees :)
If you spend the same amount of time with each camera, monochrome will always give you a better result. If you use one night and split between three filters or 4 filters for LRGB vs 1 night with OSC and either no filter for broad band or a dual narrowband filter the Monochrome will outperform in a single night and pull away more and more as time goes on. It’s somewhat close in results for one night, but as the nights go on the monochromic, continue to put a bigger gap in results overtime.
Yep, that makes sense to me, although I do think that because the SNR curves wrt time are effectively square roots, assuming that monochrome gets signal at a rate of x, and color at a rate of 0.8x, the SNR gap after 90 hours would be 1, but you'd need to get to go to 360 hours to widen it to 2. So I think the initial gap would be the most visible!
I think usage is what it comes down to. If you aren't trying hard to push the limits you might never get to a point where mono is significantly better.
Time wise mono doesn't have as big an advantage as one might think. When using a color filter you are using all the pixels for that color, but for a color camera you are still using all the pixels for each shot. It's the luminance frames that make the difference. But if you are only imaging for 4 hours you can't afford to spend most your time on luminance frames, reducing that advantage.
But if you are pushing the limits you may only want to image for 2 hours on either side of the meridian. Or if you go lower you choose your filter according to the situation; longer wavelength closer to the horizon, time use of oiii for when the moon is down, etc.
If you aren't working extremely hard to optimize usevof mono you are much better off with OSC. You will get more, and better images with OSC. But there are things you cannot do well with OSC.
How about the O III having not one but two lines, and blueshifting-by-fast-focal-length the filter took in from that secondary emission line, while keeping most of the primary emission line?
I know you have some really good narrowband filters. Do you think it would be possible for you to get SH2-114 The Flying Dragon Nebula from Tokyo? I tried to see if an hour with the Seestar would show even a hint of it, no luck.
That looks hard!
OSC is "almost" exclusive option for the Hyperstar. I know some people use Mono with the filter wheel on the 14" but anything smaller will mask too much of the aperture and non-concentrically.
True! RASA and Hyperstar are much better with OSC...