"And with a single video, the man of culture made an internet commitment (legally binding) to rescue and lag test every model of plasma display ever made." Great analysis and explanations!
Haha thank you! I really wish that I could own and measure them all, especially after getting such varied results over different models and production years.
I honestly didn't expect the newer Plasma's having that much lower lag. Very cool stuff. I actually really like my CRT for 480i and 240p stuff, so I'm not gonna go out and rush out to get one, but its nice to see the interest in this sort of stuff.
I love that people are catching onto plasma, and that there are still a few of us who have maintained our love for them. I got my first in 2012 (new 43E450), my second in 2014 (new 51F4500 (which I'm watching this on)), and my third last month (used low hour 65ST60).
Awesome, I'm hoping that the community grows so that we have more technical discussions and can uncover more information about all of the forgotten models. The 65" ST60 must be incredible for movies. My 50" model has very high hours (over 31K) but still has a good picture aside from a couple issues (one stuck pixel and some sparkles that I believe require a simple power board voltage adjustment). It's actually pretty amazing how good the picture still looks with over 31k hours on the panel. Yours probably has a very long life ahead of it.
I've recently been in the Plasma game and you are helping me figure out the best ways to enjoy it fully! Someone was giving away a 2006 high end one in my area so i jumped on it! Super cool tech! Thank you for this info!
I bought a Panasonic VT60 about 15 years ago. It was a damn nice TV, with a picture quality better than any LCD on the market at the time. But then OLEDs came out and pretty much ate plasma's lunch. I don't know how my current LG OLED measures up to that old Panny plasma when it comes to input lag, but in every other department, the OLED has it licked.
I have a Panasonic ST60. Interesting data. I primarily use it to watch TV/movies (MKV files) via PC on 1080p with all the anti-judder or similar things turned off. What audio delay do you suggest I use in my media player software based on the ~4 frames on input lag you are seeing? Thanks for putting this video together!
You're welcome, and that is a good use case for your ST60! The exact measurement from my Time Sleuth on my ST60 at 1080p is 76.06ms. I'd try to set your audio delay to this or maybe 68ms (8.33ms lower) and see how it matches up.
Great video. I have the three plasmas, similar, but slightly different models to yours as am based in Australia. Pioneer Kuro PDP-LX508A Panasonic TH-50PX70A Panasonic TH-P60ST30A I'll borrow a mates MisTer Laggy and report back my findings using your test methodology. On the surface, the Kuro has by FAR the best picture and sound quality. The 60" Panasonic lacks vibrance and punch compared to the Kuro and 1080p looks a little crappy vs a 50" 1080p screen. Keep up the good work.
My budget plasma has started developing image retention, it’s so bad not only does it faintly leave a shadow where the splash screen flashed - anything you did on it the previous few to several days before by the time you turn it back on is still clearly visible.
Love plasma, I’m gaming on a Panasonic 58 inch v10, got a zt65 as my spare for 1080p gaming. Got the 500b 720p Panasonic plasma for original Xbox. Love plasma TVs.
So, the cheaper one actually does less garbage processing to the image, making movies look better, your desktop look sharper, and reduces input lag. Could it be that the higher-end models were all a scam (with the exception of the ones that actually had better panels)?
There's a theory that in many cases the higher end models had the same panels and, aside from user menu features and "smart" software, differentiation largely came down to the filter and tints on the front of the panels. It would be interesting to compare panel part numbers between models to really get to the bottom of this.
This is the same story when it comes to CRT TVs. All the models we hunt are 60hz not 100hz. The 100hz were all upmarket sets designed as a premium feature to de-interlace interlaced content. HD CRTs also have frame buffers and poor SD signal processing. Time and time again I keep noticing that the more "features" and "modes" a TV has the more processing is added, ruining the image either in clarity, upscaling or lag. Cheaper sets generally omit most of these features and by simply not having them at all avoids the stuff gamers don't want. P.S. the native resolution will almost always be the best way to leverage a fixed pixel display. Impulse driven plasmas are included. If you want lag free across SD through to 720p on a 1080p display you're better off using an external upscaler like a RT5x Pro.
F4500 among a few others has undocumented support for 240p, even via HDMI-the shmups11 forum had a thread on it a while back-but presumably the lag there is not measurable without some special firmware for a Time Sleuth or similar device, in any case I wouldn’t expect it to differ from all the others
This got me curious about some of our old plasmas (we typically ride these things out until they die), which are different models from those in the vid (except for the F4500). I’d just have to find my Time Sleuth again first, lol…
Hopefully someone with a Time Sleuth and that model can test it. I believe that the absolute minimum that any plasma could theoretically read at the six test points is 16.67ms for a 60Hz signal, because no matter what they have to buffer a full frame due to the way the technology works (frames pulse onto the screen rather than scan in top to bottom).
your channel was responsible for my current plasma tv obsession lol, i used to hate it but now i wanna get one to use in place of my samsung smart lcd since i only use my tv to play on my xbox 360. Btw, those wallpapers on your desktop look clean, esp the ps1, did u make them yourself?
Really happy to hear that I got another person interested in these! I think more people will catch on down the line to how cool these things are. Right now they're subject to a lot of hate and misinformation -- glad to be a part of changing this. Yup, those wallpapers are my own work!
Do you notice any different in lag on the TVs modes. I heard that on Panasonic plasma the game mode is the same as say the thx mode, it’s just a different picture calibration
I tried things like switching between Cinema/Game/Custom etc. pre-set modes and didn't find any meaningful differences in lag on any models tested. "Game Mode" on my TVs generally doesn't do anything either; at most maybe it disables something that I already had turned off. I also tested whether or not different aspect ratio settings (Full/Just/4:3 etc.) affect lag, and those never changed anything either. So yeah, if your model has a THX mode, you're probably fine using that without risk of adding lag. Most features and video tweaking settings don't do anything, but things like motion interpolation really ramp it up. Also that "1080 pixel direct" feature on my ST60 added lag. Apparently this mode only benefits a connection to a PC anyway and could interfere with the quality of other sources.
I have two of the same panasonic tvs you have the s60 and st60 mine are both 60 inch tvs I'm die hard panasonic plasma guy i have 4 plasmas now I've had a few over the years
Yes, on the ST60 that is what I found. I haven't looked too much into that feature, but it sounds like it should only be enabled for a source like a PC (it has something to do with 4:4:4 chroma). When I first saw it on the menu, I turned it on thinking that it was for 1:1 pixel mapping to eliminate overscan. It turns out that it is not this at all. The overscan toggle is at a different spot on the menu, and I don't think that the overscan toggle affects lag at all.
I have to Panasonic th-42px60u an image retention starts within seconds of an image on the screen.. is that how they always were or is this due to its age?
On my 37" PX60 the image retention definitely isn't that bad, but on my 51" Samsung F4500, image retention is super bad if the panel brightness is high -- sounds like what you're describing. I read through over 1,000 old forum posts on my F4500, and nobody every complained bout IR back when it was newer. My F4500 has over 22k hours from the previous owner, so I believe that it probably is usage related. Surely people would have complained about this back in the day if it were a problem at lower hours. So I'm curious how many hours your PX60 has. I seem to have wiped the hour count after performing a firmware update, so I am not sure how many are on mine. If you can, try to run it at a lower panel brightness in a very dark room to see if things improve.
From the very beginning I was worried about this. So I regularly use the plasma tv mode (analog tv) with the grey rain. So far I don’t have retentions and I had it since September 2006. I still use it a lot 80 % video games, 20 % media content. I have a 42px60e
@@superchimpin The analog TV "snow" is a good trick to use, yeah. I updated my PX60 to the final firmware, which eliminates the ability to watch the snow for more than about a second or two -- kind of an unfortunate feature change. The only reason I updated mine was because I was holding out hope that maybe I could eliminate the ~3% overscan on it. Still a great model nonetheless. That's awesome that you've had it since release.
I wonder how my VT30 would perform? I will say that even in Game mode, I feel lag. Interestingly, it feels the same in other modes. Now, I just bought one of the best displays for modern gaming - a TCL QM7 mini-LED. Of course, it has less lag than the VT30, HOWEVER in order to match the judder-free performance of the VT30 at 60hz I must enable judder reduction in the settings at which time it has more lag than the VT30! So, plasma still wins and the PS5 and Series X are back to being connected to the VT30. I was not expecting that. I used an HDMI switch for when I play HDR or 120hz games. Make no mistake - everything is better on the TCL EXCEPT motion at 60hz. In fact, 30hz is better because it doesn't display triple horizontal lines like the VT30 does on quick camera pans and blurs instead.
Yup, it's the motion clarity of plasmas that keeps me coming back too -- and the SDR colors. To me, it's almost like having a giant CRT but thin and with perfect geometry. I don't have the latest consoles like you, but similarly I swapped my Xbox One X and PS4 Pro out of my OLED setup and up to the 1080p plasma setup. They look so much better in motion on a plasma than on a sample-and-hold display. I tried BFI at 60Hz on my LG OLED C1, and it's just not the same. And I also took a lag measurement before and after enabling BFI on my C1. Before enabling it, display lag is so low it's almost like a CRT. After enabling BFI, display lag is about equal to the S30.
I've been collecting for a very long time (since childhood), hang onto the good stuff, and am patient when it comes to building my physical media collection. I just work a regular office job and spend very little in other areas of life to afford the pricier things. I do a lot of thrifting and always look for deals. And by the way, the plasma TVs/monitors themselves are very cheap these days (or even free). Back when they were in production, I could not afford any of them. Very recently I got the ST60 for $50, and the Pioneer Kuro for $100. People are letting even the best models go right now for true bargain prices.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
"And with a single video, the man of culture made an internet commitment (legally binding) to rescue and lag test every model of plasma display ever made."
Great analysis and explanations!
Haha thank you! I really wish that I could own and measure them all, especially after getting such varied results over different models and production years.
The design of the Kuro is unmatched.
It sure has an ultra-premium look. Usually I don't want thick bezels on a display, but the Kuro is the exception.
I honestly didn't expect the newer Plasma's having that much lower lag. Very cool stuff. I actually really like my CRT for 480i and 240p stuff, so I'm not gonna go out and rush out to get one, but its nice to see the interest in this sort of stuff.
I love that people are catching onto plasma, and that there are still a few of us who have maintained our love for them.
I got my first in 2012 (new 43E450), my second in 2014 (new 51F4500 (which I'm watching this on)), and my third last month (used low hour 65ST60).
Awesome, I'm hoping that the community grows so that we have more technical discussions and can uncover more information about all of the forgotten models. The 65" ST60 must be incredible for movies. My 50" model has very high hours (over 31K) but still has a good picture aside from a couple issues (one stuck pixel and some sparkles that I believe require a simple power board voltage adjustment). It's actually pretty amazing how good the picture still looks with over 31k hours on the panel. Yours probably has a very long life ahead of it.
I've recently been in the Plasma game and you are helping me figure out the best ways to enjoy it fully! Someone was giving away a 2006 high end one in my area so i jumped on it! Super cool tech! Thank you for this info!
Glad that I could help and also glad to hear that you found one you like! Many people overlook the older ones, and they're missing out.
I bought a Panasonic VT60 about 15 years ago. It was a damn nice TV, with a picture quality better than any LCD on the market at the time. But then OLEDs came out and pretty much ate plasma's lunch. I don't know how my current LG OLED measures up to that old Panny plasma when it comes to input lag, but in every other department, the OLED has it licked.
I have a Panasonic ST60. Interesting data. I primarily use it to watch TV/movies (MKV files) via PC on 1080p with all the anti-judder or similar things turned off. What audio delay do you suggest I use in my media player software based on the ~4 frames on input lag you are seeing? Thanks for putting this video together!
You're welcome, and that is a good use case for your ST60! The exact measurement from my Time Sleuth on my ST60 at 1080p is 76.06ms. I'd try to set your audio delay to this or maybe 68ms (8.33ms lower) and see how it matches up.
That's insane the amount of stuff you got in one room. Must cost a fortune.
I spent a good amount on some things, but I've been collecting for over 20 years and built everything out slowly for the most part.
Great video. I have the three plasmas, similar, but slightly different models to yours as am based in Australia.
Pioneer Kuro PDP-LX508A
Panasonic TH-50PX70A
Panasonic TH-P60ST30A
I'll borrow a mates MisTer Laggy and report back my findings using your test methodology.
On the surface, the Kuro has by FAR the best picture and sound quality. The 60" Panasonic lacks vibrance and punch compared to the Kuro and 1080p looks a little crappy vs a 50" 1080p screen.
Keep up the good work.
My budget plasma has started developing image retention, it’s so bad not only does it faintly leave a shadow where the splash screen flashed - anything you did on it the previous few to several days before by the time you turn it back on is still clearly visible.
Love plasma, I’m gaming on a Panasonic 58 inch v10, got a zt65 as my spare for 1080p gaming. Got the 500b 720p Panasonic plasma for original Xbox. Love plasma TVs.
So, the cheaper one actually does less garbage processing to the image, making movies look better, your desktop look sharper, and reduces input lag. Could it be that the higher-end models were all a scam (with the exception of the ones that actually had better panels)?
There's a theory that in many cases the higher end models had the same panels and, aside from user menu features and "smart" software, differentiation largely came down to the filter and tints on the front of the panels. It would be interesting to compare panel part numbers between models to really get to the bottom of this.
This is the same story when it comes to CRT TVs.
All the models we hunt are 60hz not 100hz. The 100hz were all upmarket sets designed as a premium feature to de-interlace interlaced content. HD CRTs also have frame buffers and poor SD signal processing. Time and time again I keep noticing that the more "features" and "modes" a TV has the more processing is added, ruining the image either in clarity, upscaling or lag. Cheaper sets generally omit most of these features and by simply not having them at all avoids the stuff gamers don't want.
P.S. the native resolution will almost always be the best way to leverage a fixed pixel display. Impulse driven plasmas are included. If you want lag free across SD through to 720p on a 1080p display you're better off using an external upscaler like a RT5x Pro.
F4500 among a few others has undocumented support for 240p, even via HDMI-the shmups11 forum had a thread on it a while back-but presumably the lag there is not measurable without some special firmware for a Time Sleuth or similar device, in any case I wouldn’t expect it to differ from all the others
This got me curious about some of our old plasmas (we typically ride these things out until they die), which are different models from those in the vid (except for the F4500). I’d just have to find my Time Sleuth again first, lol…
Panny ST50 was supposed to have 16ms.
Hopefully someone with a Time Sleuth and that model can test it. I believe that the absolute minimum that any plasma could theoretically read at the six test points is 16.67ms for a 60Hz signal, because no matter what they have to buffer a full frame due to the way the technology works (frames pulse onto the screen rather than scan in top to bottom).
Thank you!
your channel was responsible for my current plasma tv obsession lol, i used to hate it but now i wanna get one to use in place of my samsung smart lcd since i only use my tv to play on my xbox 360. Btw, those wallpapers on your desktop look clean, esp the ps1, did u make them yourself?
Really happy to hear that I got another person interested in these! I think more people will catch on down the line to how cool these things are. Right now they're subject to a lot of hate and misinformation -- glad to be a part of changing this.
Yup, those wallpapers are my own work!
Wow! Great video. And now another product that I must purchase immediately. LOL.
Do you notice any different in lag on the TVs modes. I heard that on Panasonic plasma the game mode is the same as say the thx mode, it’s just a different picture calibration
I tried things like switching between Cinema/Game/Custom etc. pre-set modes and didn't find any meaningful differences in lag on any models tested. "Game Mode" on my TVs generally doesn't do anything either; at most maybe it disables something that I already had turned off. I also tested whether or not different aspect ratio settings (Full/Just/4:3 etc.) affect lag, and those never changed anything either. So yeah, if your model has a THX mode, you're probably fine using that without risk of adding lag. Most features and video tweaking settings don't do anything, but things like motion interpolation really ramp it up.
Also that "1080 pixel direct" feature on my ST60 added lag. Apparently this mode only benefits a connection to a PC anyway and could interfere with the quality of other sources.
You think for the S30 lag applies on all sizes like your 42"?
I have two of the same panasonic tvs you have the s60 and st60 mine are both 60 inch tvs I'm die hard panasonic plasma guy i have 4 plasmas now I've had a few over the years
That's a great pair to own, one of the best for gaming and one of the best (if not THE best) for movies.
i love plasma tv but screen burn in is so bad
Putting the Panasonics on 1080p Pixel Direct increases the lag?
Yes, on the ST60 that is what I found. I haven't looked too much into that feature, but it sounds like it should only be enabled for a source like a PC (it has something to do with 4:4:4 chroma). When I first saw it on the menu, I turned it on thinking that it was for 1:1 pixel mapping to eliminate overscan. It turns out that it is not this at all. The overscan toggle is at a different spot on the menu, and I don't think that the overscan toggle affects lag at all.
I have to Panasonic th-42px60u an image retention starts within seconds of an image on the screen.. is that how they always were or is this due to its age?
On my 37" PX60 the image retention definitely isn't that bad, but on my 51" Samsung F4500, image retention is super bad if the panel brightness is high -- sounds like what you're describing. I read through over 1,000 old forum posts on my F4500, and nobody every complained bout IR back when it was newer. My F4500 has over 22k hours from the previous owner, so I believe that it probably is usage related. Surely people would have complained about this back in the day if it were a problem at lower hours.
So I'm curious how many hours your PX60 has. I seem to have wiped the hour count after performing a firmware update, so I am not sure how many are on mine. If you can, try to run it at a lower panel brightness in a very dark room to see if things improve.
From the very beginning I was worried about this. So I regularly use the plasma tv mode (analog tv) with the grey rain. So far I don’t have retentions and I had it since September 2006. I still use it a lot 80 % video games, 20 % media content. I have a 42px60e
@@superchimpin The analog TV "snow" is a good trick to use, yeah. I updated my PX60 to the final firmware, which eliminates the ability to watch the snow for more than about a second or two -- kind of an unfortunate feature change. The only reason I updated mine was because I was holding out hope that maybe I could eliminate the ~3% overscan on it. Still a great model nonetheless. That's awesome that you've had it since release.
I wonder how my VT30 would perform? I will say that even in Game mode, I feel lag. Interestingly, it feels the same in other modes. Now, I just bought one of the best displays for modern gaming - a TCL QM7 mini-LED. Of course, it has less lag than the VT30, HOWEVER in order to match the judder-free performance of the VT30 at 60hz I must enable judder reduction in the settings at which time it has more lag than the VT30! So, plasma still wins and the PS5 and Series X are back to being connected to the VT30. I was not expecting that. I used an HDMI switch for when I play HDR or 120hz games. Make no mistake - everything is better on the TCL EXCEPT motion at 60hz. In fact, 30hz is better because it doesn't display triple horizontal lines like the VT30 does on quick camera pans and blurs instead.
Yup, it's the motion clarity of plasmas that keeps me coming back too -- and the SDR colors. To me, it's almost like having a giant CRT but thin and with perfect geometry. I don't have the latest consoles like you, but similarly I swapped my Xbox One X and PS4 Pro out of my OLED setup and up to the 1080p plasma setup. They look so much better in motion on a plasma than on a sample-and-hold display. I tried BFI at 60Hz on my LG OLED C1, and it's just not the same. And I also took a lag measurement before and after enabling BFI on my C1. Before enabling it, display lag is so low it's almost like a CRT. After enabling BFI, display lag is about equal to the S30.
May I ask how you afford all of this?
I've been collecting for a very long time (since childhood), hang onto the good stuff, and am patient when it comes to building my physical media collection. I just work a regular office job and spend very little in other areas of life to afford the pricier things. I do a lot of thrifting and always look for deals.
And by the way, the plasma TVs/monitors themselves are very cheap these days (or even free). Back when they were in production, I could not afford any of them. Very recently I got the ST60 for $50, and the Pioneer Kuro for $100. People are letting even the best models go right now for true bargain prices.