I tune mostly with an ETD because I believe I get better, more consistent results than I could by ear alone. That's not a judgment of whether or not anyone else can, just being honest about my own skill level. I have, however, found good use in the interval beat rate checks I learned in the process of passing the tuning exam. First, the ETD will occasionally do wonky things and I can troubleshoot it more easily than if I just vaguely listened to the pitch to determine which notes were flat/sharp. Second, I have had the rare customer who could hear well enough to complain about where the ETD put certain notes (ex. maybe it made one of the bass octaves just a little too roll-y in favor of a double octave or some particular partial set). Admittedly the latter case requires only a small subset of the checks you'd use for a temperament, but still uses the aural training overall. But you do have a point, 99% of the time I just set the temperament straight off the device, and only check it with 5ths and octaves -- if there's any problem it becomes readily apparent. As far as the PTG statements about the RPT credential... I have the feeling those were written decades ago and could probably use some tweaking. I don't know if it's been suggested or not, such things tend to move at a glacial pace for better or worse. I suppose it doesn't really trouble me; the majority of my customers have no idea what an RPT is, and the ones that do seem to understand that it's a baseline of competence.
Most of the problems I've had with technicians in the field were all PTG RPT members who thought they knew everything but were causing problems and not doing good work.
I recall RPTs who studied piano technology focusing primarily on passing the RPT exams. They became very good at passing the PTGs tests. Many had this belief that "they've arrived" I could bare witness to their over confidence many had in the field as well as PTG meetings etc. Many saw me (an Associate member) as "an ugly duckling." I had talents in many areas that far exceeded what most RPTs could do ( such as player pianos restorations and repairs on older pianos). .
*When an organization believes it is perfectly acceptable to "grandfather" its registered ("certified") associates for life,* allowing them to keep a professional title, with no recertification requirements attached, then people need to run the other way. Imagine passing an exam 20, 30, or even 40 years ago and expecting the public to believe that you're still qualified to do the job....so as long as you pay your annual dues - this is the PTG in a nutshell. This mentality doesn't fly too well with other professions, and organizations. ... What I don't understand is why the PTG has fought so hard against, and actually believes, they don't have to recertify their RPTs - whom I have used to tune my pianos before, in the past, and generally dislike. *If only the general public knew this is the real way the PTG operates, then they (the PTG) would change their tune really fast (pun intended).* Why should this professional trade organization treat registered techs any different than say a CPA, doctor, an insurange agent, or a pilot the professions of which *all require regular and mandatory continuing education?*
I dont see a need to recertify because all the rpt piano technicians are getting plenty of practice on all these skills out in the field with clients pianos.
@@SammyBoe OK, I see your point, however, without recertification, there is no way to gauge if a tech is getting lazy or sloppy... other than word of mouth. If the guild had each piano tuning rated after a tech tunes it, then continuous process improvement would be intertwined with day to day tunings. I know this is not practical and somehow cheats would "work the system", so the only way to insure that techs are "following the craft" is to evaluate them periodically. Just like pilot's do for IFR flying, our cars have for emissions, annual ethics training in the workplace, firefighters using their equipment, the list goes on... Some pianos are priceless, having a so called "one time qualification" doesn't make sense to allow someone to even touch one because 30 years ago they passed a test and only tune a piano or two a year - there is no accountability as to each tech's contribution and maintained skills. Even some of our most every days skills (take vision for pilots... so why not hearing for tuners) are required to be evaluated now and then... I am an engineer, we are checked on various skills all the time to be sure we design to quality standards. I think piano techs need that same level of periodic scrutiny from the Guild that gave them the "green light" to tune pianos in the first place.
Your point is appreciated. It took a long time and a lot of sentiments to get there, but I endured and see your point. Now, if we can get past that; what do you mean by 'hearing that the pitch is correct'?
The RPT tuning exam is not based on an ETD. They use the devise just to measure the pitch of each string. After a certified aural tech plus two Registered Piano techs tune the piano by ear. Each has to agree on each string. Then they take the pitch measurements using the ETD. It takes around 3 hours. So three people tune a high quality grand by ear then measure each string. Then they will detune the piano in such a way that dose not affect the plate. That’s when they give the test.
As a Certified Tuning Examiner for the Piano Technicians Guild, I can verify the above statement. When we master tune, we verify everything by ear and painstakingly measure each string and store it in an ETD.
I think it's just marketing. The words you use in public ads, and on the inside are not always the same in any industry. They need a mission statement that is used in both "arenas" to avoid such scrutiny.
Tuning a piano it's not different from tuning a guitar, it just takes longer. It's not rocket science. Every musician should learn how to tune their own piano. But a technician is still required if you need to repair a piano and you don't know what to do.
The whole tuning debate falls on it's ear when one realizes they are being scored by consensus base on measurements take... with an electronic tuning device. Just saying 😂
We use the ETD to measure the examinees tuning so that we can objectively compare the examinees tuning to our master tuning with as little bias as possible. ETDs are amazing MEASURING devices, however when it comes to refined tuning of the midrange or bass, they can be unreliable.
So then, is this video your contribution to the community of piano technicians, or did you start an organization to do so? I would posit the same question to the long line of people who love to criticize PTG, but never have anything to add to the community, other than complaints. Here's a thought : don't join. Gosh, that's easy. Or, hop on social media to make videos and complain. Hmmmm. Which should I choose....
I want to become a certified piano tuner to have credibility and know I possess the knowledge to tune a piano in a way that properly respects the instrument. How would you suggest I go about this?
Your first sentence makes alot of assumptions as though they are "established fact" when in my opinion much of this is open to debate. The PTG and piano technology schools are great resources. I made use of them myself, but , much of what they preach doesn't work for everyone.
I am learning to become a RPT too, I can't even find a mentor... so I am getting my book smarts, internet, and wathing videos. I am also writing my own PC Piano Tuner Simulator, with 3 Tuning Pins on torson sensors to simulate tuning strings. It will play refernce notes and tuning notes, and I adjust the tuning of the strings as I turn the tuning pins, then it will score me to a Railsback curve that is modified for each tuning session to simulate different pianos. It will randomly detue to start a tuning session and even emulate random piano characteristics so no two training sessions are alike. I only started it a few days ago and it is coming along nicely. I may forgo the RTP because it is $300+ a year just to keep your title. If they required periodic retesting, many would stop paying the annual free.
Duke Ellington once gave this advice to a budding musician. " You want to be "the best you and not the second-best somebody else." Most of these piano technician schools and courses (as well as the Piano Technicians Guild) use a "cookie cutter approach" meaning they teach everyone the same exact way. The mentor I chose was extremely mechanically inclined because mechanical inclination was my greatest aptitude. I knew that outcompeting concert technicians and those who primarily tuned in what they did best would be too much of a struggle for me. The Piano Technicians Guild is a great resource. They were a huge help to me in the beginning. Do you want to be a "tuner type ?" Do you want to be a rebuilder ? Do you want to be like me a versatile technician well suited to older pianos rebuilding, refinishing and player pianos ? Do you want to be a concert technician. What type of technician or course you choose should best supports your strongest aptitudes as a Piano technician. It took me several years to figure out exactly where I fit in.
@@therenegadepianotechnician5170 I have found PTG to be extremely helpful. They led me to an excellent mentor and school. I know what I want my Market focus to be and my mentor can help me go in that direction.
If being a piano technician is only going to be a "side hustle" for you and not a career, then you don't need to spend 15-25 grand learning the entire trade.You can just learn tuning and basic repairs adjustments, maintenance at first . You will need to befriend various piano technician experts and work closely with them. I met several in the PTG and elsewhere, I wasn't "shy" about contacting them asking for help and advice. Understand the limits of your knowledge and differ to them when there is something you are uncertain about. This is a good way to avoid getting a bad reputation. Many will hate my opinion here, because in their view, if you are not "competent" to their standards then you do not belong servicing other peoples pianos.
So, your beef with the PTG is tuning by ear. It’s not archaic. Tuning by ear is a skill. The whole point of the test is to test your skills oh, and by the way, all major piano companies who provide concert pianos tune by ear machine is not accepted why, because the human ear is far superior to any machine. Machines have limitations each piano is a little different and the structure the way it’s built the soundboard well anyway have a nice day.
I tune mostly with an ETD because I believe I get better, more consistent results than I could by ear alone. That's not a judgment of whether or not anyone else can, just being honest about my own skill level. I have, however, found good use in the interval beat rate checks I learned in the process of passing the tuning exam. First, the ETD will occasionally do wonky things and I can troubleshoot it more easily than if I just vaguely listened to the pitch to determine which notes were flat/sharp. Second, I have had the rare customer who could hear well enough to complain about where the ETD put certain notes (ex. maybe it made one of the bass octaves just a little too roll-y in favor of a double octave or some particular partial set). Admittedly the latter case requires only a small subset of the checks you'd use for a temperament, but still uses the aural training overall.
But you do have a point, 99% of the time I just set the temperament straight off the device, and only check it with 5ths and octaves -- if there's any problem it becomes readily apparent.
As far as the PTG statements about the RPT credential... I have the feeling those were written decades ago and could probably use some tweaking. I don't know if it's been suggested or not, such things tend to move at a glacial pace for better or worse. I suppose it doesn't really trouble me; the majority of my customers have no idea what an RPT is, and the ones that do seem to understand that it's a baseline of competence.
Most of the problems I've had with technicians in the field were all PTG RPT members who thought they knew everything but were causing problems and not doing good work.
I recall RPTs who studied piano technology focusing primarily on passing the RPT exams. They became very good at passing the PTGs tests. Many had this belief that "they've arrived" I could bare witness to their over confidence many had in the field as well as PTG meetings etc. Many saw me (an Associate member) as "an ugly duckling." I had talents in many areas that far exceeded what most RPTs could do ( such as player pianos restorations and repairs on older pianos). .
I tune both aurally and digitally. I definitely think there is a place for both, but yeah tigers who can’t tune by ear I think have a disadvantage
*When an organization believes it is perfectly acceptable to "grandfather" its registered ("certified") associates for life,* allowing them to keep a professional title, with no recertification requirements attached, then people need to run the other way. Imagine passing an exam 20, 30, or even 40 years ago and expecting the public to believe that you're still qualified to do the job....so as long as you pay your annual dues - this is the PTG in a nutshell. This mentality doesn't fly too well with other professions, and organizations. ... What I don't understand is why the PTG has fought so hard against, and actually believes, they don't have to recertify their RPTs - whom I have used to tune my pianos before, in the past, and generally dislike. *If only the general public knew this is the real way the PTG operates, then they (the PTG) would change their tune really fast (pun intended).* Why should this professional trade organization treat registered techs any different than say a CPA, doctor, an insurange agent, or a pilot the professions of which *all require regular and mandatory continuing education?*
I concur!
I dont see a need to recertify because all the rpt piano technicians are getting plenty of practice on all these skills out in the field with clients pianos.
@@SammyBoe OK, I see your point, however, without recertification, there is no way to gauge if a tech is getting lazy or sloppy... other than word of mouth. If the guild had each piano tuning rated after a tech tunes it, then continuous process improvement would be intertwined with day to day tunings. I know this is not practical and somehow cheats would "work the system", so the only way to insure that techs are "following the craft" is to evaluate them periodically. Just like pilot's do for IFR flying, our cars have for emissions, annual ethics training in the workplace, firefighters using their equipment, the list goes on... Some pianos are priceless, having a so called "one time qualification" doesn't make sense to allow someone to even touch one because 30 years ago they passed a test and only tune a piano or two a year - there is no accountability as to each tech's contribution and maintained skills. Even some of our most every days skills (take vision for pilots... so why not hearing for tuners) are required to be evaluated now and then... I am an engineer, we are checked on various skills all the time to be sure we design to quality standards. I think piano techs need that same level of periodic scrutiny from the Guild that gave them the "green light" to tune pianos in the first place.
Your point is appreciated. It took a long time and a lot of sentiments to get there, but I endured and see your point.
Now, if we can get past that; what do you mean by 'hearing that the pitch is correct'?
The RPT tuning exam is not based on an ETD. They use the devise just to measure the pitch of each string. After a certified aural tech plus two Registered Piano techs tune the piano by ear. Each has to agree on each string. Then they take the pitch measurements using the ETD.
It takes around 3 hours.
So three people tune a high quality grand by ear then measure each string.
Then they will detune the piano in such a way that dose not affect the plate.
That’s when they give the test.
As a Certified Tuning Examiner for the Piano Technicians Guild, I can verify the above statement. When we master tune, we verify everything by ear and painstakingly measure each string and store it in an ETD.
is the RPT membership necessary to start a piano technician business or should I be able to start my business without it?
All the people complaining about PTG.
Who checks your work?
They are advertising RPT as one thing for members and another thing for consumers. That’s clearly false advertising and misleading the public.
I think it's just marketing. The words you use in public ads, and on the inside are not always the same in any industry. They need a mission statement that is used in both "arenas" to avoid such scrutiny.
Tuning a piano it's not different from tuning a guitar, it just takes longer. It's not rocket science. Every musician should learn how to tune their own piano. But a technician is still required if you need to repair a piano and you don't know what to do.
The whole tuning debate falls on it's ear when one realizes they are being scored by consensus base on measurements take... with an electronic tuning device. Just saying 😂
We use the ETD to measure the examinees tuning so that we can objectively compare the examinees tuning to our master tuning with as little bias as possible. ETDs are amazing MEASURING devices, however when it comes to refined tuning of the midrange or bass, they can be unreliable.
The PTG is basically full of crapola.
Describe crapola
@@michellegoad1052gatekeepers working tirelessly for their own survival.
So then, is this video your contribution to the community of piano technicians, or did you start an organization to do so? I would posit the same question to the long line of people who love to criticize PTG, but never have anything to add to the community, other than complaints. Here's a thought : don't join. Gosh, that's easy. Or, hop on social media to make videos and complain. Hmmmm. Which should I choose....
I want to become a certified piano tuner to have credibility and know I possess the knowledge to tune a piano in a way that properly respects the instrument. How would you suggest I go about this?
Do you think the PTG is a good place to start?
Your first sentence makes alot of assumptions as though they are "established fact" when in my opinion much of this is open to debate. The PTG and piano technology schools are great resources. I made use of them myself, but , much of what they preach doesn't work for everyone.
I am learning to become a RPT too, I can't even find a mentor... so I am getting my book smarts, internet, and wathing videos. I am also writing my own PC Piano Tuner Simulator, with 3 Tuning Pins on torson sensors to simulate tuning strings. It will play refernce notes and tuning notes, and I adjust the tuning of the strings as I turn the tuning pins, then it will score me to a Railsback curve that is modified for each tuning session to simulate different pianos. It will randomly detue to start a tuning session and even emulate random piano characteristics so no two training sessions are alike. I only started it a few days ago and it is coming along nicely.
I may forgo the RTP because it is $300+ a year just to keep your title. If they required periodic retesting, many would stop paying the annual free.
I plan to become a piano technician(part-time), what should I do? Learning online courses first?
Duke Ellington once gave this advice to a budding musician. " You want to be "the best you and not the second-best somebody else." Most of these piano technician schools and courses (as well as the Piano Technicians Guild) use a "cookie cutter approach" meaning they teach everyone the same exact way. The mentor I chose was extremely mechanically inclined because mechanical inclination was my greatest aptitude. I knew that outcompeting concert technicians and those who primarily tuned in what they did best would be too much of a struggle for me. The Piano Technicians Guild is a great resource. They were a huge help to me in the beginning. Do you want to be a "tuner type ?" Do you want to be a rebuilder ? Do you want to be like me a versatile technician well suited to older pianos rebuilding, refinishing and player pianos ? Do you want to be a concert technician. What type of technician or course you choose should best supports your strongest aptitudes as a Piano technician. It took me several years to figure out exactly where I fit in.
@@therenegadepianotechnician5170 I have found PTG to be extremely helpful. They led me to an excellent mentor and school. I know what I want my Market focus to be and my mentor can help me go in that direction.
If being a piano technician is only going to be a "side hustle" for you and not a career, then you don't need to spend 15-25 grand learning the entire trade.You can just learn tuning and basic repairs adjustments, maintenance at first . You will need to befriend various piano technician experts and work closely with them. I met several in the PTG and elsewhere, I wasn't "shy" about contacting them asking for help and advice. Understand the limits of your knowledge and differ to them when there is something you are uncertain about. This is a good way to avoid getting a bad reputation. Many will hate my opinion here, because in their view, if you are not "competent" to their standards then you do not belong servicing other peoples pianos.
For a online course I found the Piano Technician Academy's- Piano Tuning and Repair Course was amazing for learning tuning, repairs, and regulation.
How did you know 80% of the answers in the written test? Did they tell you in advance?I don't really believe it.。。。。
Yup
Burping on the mic is not very professional.
PTG needs to change or it will die
So, your beef with the PTG is tuning by ear. It’s not archaic. Tuning by ear is a skill. The whole point of the test is to test your skills oh, and by the way, all major piano companies who provide concert pianos tune by ear machine is not accepted why, because the human ear is far superior to any machine. Machines have limitations each piano is a little different and the structure the way it’s built the soundboard well anyway have a nice day.
Have you found another organization that educates and supports piano tuners and technicians?