Why I HATE Gods in my fantasy worlds...
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- Let's talk about Gods in your fantasy worlds. The Good. The bad. The in between.
Thank you so much for watching! Please consider liking and subscribing,
Crafting stories, one realm at a time...and bring your next story to life with Dscryb (use code FANTASYFORGEUNIVERSE at checkout):
dscryb.com/fantasyforgeuniverse
Subscribe and never miss an update for content just like this:
/ @thefantasyforge
Join our community and even have your name written in our Tome of Legends:
/ thefantasyforge873
Visit us at: www.FantasyForgeUniverse.com
Shop our wares at: www.etsy.com/shop/ShopFantasy...
Bring out the worldbuilder in you with our World Weaver's Workbook: a.co/d/iTG1DjK
Want to be a better Dungeon Master? Start with our guide, the Master of Realms:
a.co/d/0SfaLV0
#dungeonsanddragons #dnd #5e #onednd
_______________________________________________________________________________
AFFILIATE LINKS - Get your products and also help support the channel at the same time!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Get a gift for the DM in your life, the core rulebooks AND MORE here: amzn.to/43lmHUD
Joseph Campbells book that inspired Star Wars and I use to plot my campaigns: amzn.to/439VhBb
Crafting stories, one realm at a time...and bring your next story to life with Dscryb (use code FANTASYFORGEUNIVERSE at checkout):
dscryb.com/fantasyforgeuniverse
_______________________________________________________________________________
CHANNEL
_______________________________________________________________________________
MORE OF OUR VIDEOS HERE:
/ @thefantasyforge
Don't forget to like and subscribe for new tabletop roleplaying content and tips for game masters, all the time! Stay up to date and never miss a new video.
On this channel we are devoted to providing dungeons and dragons and ttrpg tips and tricks from real life experience. If you have a question you want solved, let us know! We'd love to tackle it.
DON'T FORGET TO SUBSCRIBE! Never miss a new update!:
/ @thefantasyforge
Visit us at: www.FantasyForgeUniverse.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
SOURCES
_______________________________________________________________________________
All videos clips in this video follow fair-use law, are from copyright free websites, or were purchased by the channel owner.
Art for our channel was created by the amazing artists:
isadora.pol...
galewanwan...
_______________________________________________________________________________
CONTACT US
_______________________________________________________________________________
Visit us at: www.FantasyForgeUniverse.com
If you have any questions, concerns, or suggestions, reach out to us at:
info@fantasyforgeuniverse.com 
Хобби
![DDG & Blueface - Top ft. Swae Lee [Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/p2wIDXar9ns/mqdefault.jpg)
I generally work with Matt Colville's framework of Saints and God's, where a Saint might interact with you occasionally but very rarely, but your God's never gonna speak to you directly
Oh that's interesting! I actually like this idea a lot
...why would a Saint rarely interact with you when the entire point of a saint is they're supposed to be a miraculous agent touched by whatever god they serve?
*the existence of saints in the first place necessitates at least some level of divine intervention* 😅
@@Pokemaster-wg9gx I kinda disagree! We have saints, and have had saints for thousands of years, does that mean they are getting messages from gods? I think a saint is more a figure that has a deep faith and for that, they are rewarded. It's a knowledge of the gods and an understanding that they will believe no matter how much people may disagree with their view. I think you're equating prophets and saints. That's just me tho!
I'm also down with the idea of saints that are messengers.
My setting has a sort of Buddhist analogue to divinity- there is a Heavenly Realm with gods, but in order to reach it, mortals must become divine natured (become saints) by following the Three Paths. Angels tend to be ascended mortals, and the gods don’t directly interfere with the world (they’re too busy dealing with cosmic horrors)
See I like this. Its not that I don't like Gods in the games, it's just more of the "How"
@@TheFantasyForgethanks!
Also 100% agree. Brandon Sanderson has his 3 laws of magic, with one being “limitations are more interesting than powers”. Limits/boundaries on how gods manifest makes them interesting/dramatic
Funny I just had a God interact with a player in my campaign for the first time. The group is level 7 so only now is the cleric getting some attention from them. The cleric had a dream of a sandy, stone ridden, broken barren land. All it showed him was a glimpse of a mountain that has been cracked in two while rushing winds were so loud he couldn't properly think. On the ground was a skeleton with a green dagger lodged in one of its ribs. The skeleton pointed to the mountain and all the noise disappeared in an instant and all the skeleton said was "you must endure". The player then began to sink in the sand while more skeletal hands pulled him lower causing him to wake up.
The God gives him direction but remains mysterious and even kinda scary. Something a powerful being should in my opinion.
I like this though! I'm cool with dreams and stuff like that. The skeleton thing is SUPER cool!!!
But when a god just shows up and is like "what can I do for you, my child" sort of stuff...it's like..."where the hell have you been when the world was on fire last week?!"
Just made a pantheon of 22 gods, got your book in the mail a couple days ago, and now this video released!? As Kronk would say "Oh yeah, it's all coming together."
I just started running a world where the gods are inspired by the Shinto religion. They are everywhere and innumerable but much lower power than most pantheons. When someone prays they hear the whispers of countless gods but as they pray the voices of the gods who resonate with their wishes and desires become more clear and they may be able to help. Most though are just able to offer advice or small bits of information due to their limited range of influence.
I'm actually the other way around: I think gods tend to be _too_ distant and detached in fantasy stories, to the point where they can end up these nebulous concepts who only interact with the world in very vague ways. If they're not treated as actual characters, I just have a hard time seeing the point of them even being in the story.
Hence I much prefer the old-school polytheistic style gods, like the Aesir of Norse mythology. In one of my several novel projects I went all-out with this idea and had the gods be physical people walking around and behaving more or less like the mortal folk, and often being extremely casual about it. Sure, they were ancient, basically immortal and very powerful, but it wasn't unusual seeing a god randomly show up at the local market or finding one running a tavern just as a sort of hobby. The idea was that they were originally these bizarre, alien-looking Lovecraftian entities, but over time they became fascinated with mortals and started looking and behaving like humans as a way to better understand them. As for why regular people still had to get stuff done by themselves, basically the gods all agreed to stay very passive since last time they tried the hands-on approach they ended up breaking the whole world, an event that also got a lot of them killed or banished from reality. That and they didn't want regular people to get too dependent on them regardless, the same way parents want their children to grow up to be responsible and self-sufficient.
This is a cool take! I like that they are "there" but not. Pretty much checks the boxes for me. They exist. They don't get involved. They're mysterious without being cliche. Love it.
In my homebrew campaign, I have a pantheon of gods also handwritten. They were once inhabiting the mortal plane (10,000yrs prior to the start of the campaign) a catastrophic event with the BBEG and his group caused most of the gods to flee the mortal plane and at present time only a couple still remain, but they aren't active in the affairs of the mortals. I have written instances where my players will interact with them, but those moments won't be game changing, just more lore really. I have planned on a couple of my pcs being religious and praying, but there won't really be direct contact with the gods they follow.
Love that! I think Gods just wouldn't interfere just like we don't interfere with things going on with insects or in sub-atomic levels. Do we sometimes? Sure! But not always
Well when I thought about Gods in the fantasy world I just replaced them with like celestial beings( or just say transcendent beings)
The idea was to replace gods with mana, when humans or other beings die they might just become a part of mana or merge with it
Like someone was very proficient in divine magic thereafter they became a part of it and other users of the same sub mana type can interact with them and receive help, guidance, or power up etc ( just like receiving their legacy)
Same for martial artists or sword , spear master etc maybe they use pure raw mana for enhancing their body's limits eta
This way we get the mana as the one true God and people who achieve something special or noteworthy leaving a part of them with the mana and can easily interact with the world more frequently
Edit : feel free to leave your suggestions in the replies and it was not really for d&d but generally fantasy world etc
Honestly reminds me of a dumb idea I had: At least some of the gods, probably the more primordial ones, storm, nature, death; are less sapient than typically depicted. More instinctual, like you can lure them and their favor by doing things or creating an environment that attracts them, but you can't fully tame them.
Kinda puts on an interesting spin on their clerics, where they're less the chosen herald of a benevolent god, and more the chosen person of an immeasurably powerful cat. And there's nothing stopping people from anthropomorphizing them anyway.
Cool idea: what if a gods temple was being destroyed by bandits, and the party comes to stop them, and the clerics god gets real pissed and empowers the cleric and says to them *"You will be the conduit for my wrath"* then after some fighting the cleric spares a bandit, then a beam of light shoots from the clerics hand leaving a fist sized hole in the bandits head. This could also deal radiant damage to the cleric, and the god would reiterate *"You WILL be the conduit for my wrath".*
I really appreciate that there's a discussion on mechanics in this topic. Every other video I see goes into politics and how awful they think the concept of religion is, ignoring what we came here for: mechanics. Thank you!
4:00 and good touch he's still there in the next shot!
I definitely agree about divine intervention being frustrating as a story telling device. It's one of those things like time travel that sort of creates the ever present issue of "why was it used that one time and not here?" If the characters can just go back in time to solve problems it gets harder and harder to justify not using it. Except that in the case of time travel that at least has some interesting story potential. Divine intervention in the players' hour of need just sort of robs the scene of the impact the players' choices had on it.
Maybe if you can justify why the gods wouldn't just be handling this themselves if it was SO IMPORTANT, but otherwise better to find more grounded excuses to get your characters out of danger. Or if that's your kind of game, let the consequences strike true and enjoy knowing your players won't forget it. For better or worse. XD
4:00 Tobias is the best-est boy. good kitty!
4:00 Tobias. My setting gods do not interact with the players much as I use dawnwar pantheon, but I do use my own home-brew goddess of fate to just randomly appear or be seen. My players instantly know who she is and try to avoid her as she likes to toy with them for fun. Yvonne is always.. watching.
I am worldbuilding a setting from scratch in my DND game and the greater gods are basically entirely distant. There are remnants of them that people cling to, but for all intents and purposes, they're dead for the people on the material plane
They do have remnants though, and divine magic is people attuning with those remnants. The result though is that people think they're connecting to and talking to gods and their prayers are being answered when none of that is actually happening
Yet another banger keep it up my dude.
Our cleric really enjoy that her goddess makes an ''appearance'' (feeling of approval for example) when making actions/decisions that align with her teachings. Or in epic combat moments when they are on the brink of death and the cleric gets a nat 20 as the final blow. but its always subtle or a whisper, not full corporeal appearance. the player really gets hyped when that happens so at my table, gods are enhancing my game haha ^.^
4:00 next to Hercules :>
Also I can't express how much your channel has helped me recently. I just got into being a DM and im writing one from scratch. You have given me so much invaluable advice and I appreciate your videos a lot :)
Thank you, seriously.
just happy to help even a little :D
Thats one of the thing I love about the Eberron setting as well!
Even tho' i made a LOT of gods for my world, the time for their living alongside mortals is way over, and now they only indirectly act through visions, oracles, a respective creature agent (for example, the celestial gods send a type of Celestial attributed to them). Obviously, the more direct and impactful interference, the bigger the reason, and i will personallt make sure of two things:
1. The god only appears as their know forms (ex: One of the Celestial Gods is quite literally, a humanoid silhouette amidst a blazing fire, two eye-like circles in a different color of flames the only distinct part of their body).
2. If you actually see or interact with a god, it's REALLY important, even if the level of interferrance they can do is extremelly limited. (ex: The goddess of oceans and monsters shows up absolutelly pissed 'cus you dishonored one of her monsters, not even granting it death and respite, so now you better be ready for divine reckoning and terrible consequences, even in the face of the backlash doing that will have on her)
I agree, I think having ran a campaign with abundant gods and one with no confirmed divinity whatsoever the second one definitely does the whole wonder and excitement thing more. When there is very indirect/subtle interaction in the new setting I have (no confirmed divinity, never will be confirmed) the players are vastly more amazed than the god being their buddy and being able to have chats. It's why incredibly powerful villains dont get much screen time, availability diminishes how important something seems. I think there's a lot of issue with wearing out the currency and losing the stakes / feeling of progression and that the world has more wonder to offer as a whole in your game when these kind of events are commonplace. If a literal god answers your call when you want, how could there be much else that is worthy of note to look forward to or be curious about?
Love that you called the screen time a "currency", that's a GREAT way to put it.
4:00 Tobias just sitting there looking great as always!
Also I am wanting to run a game that doesn't have a pantheon, deities, or gods but one of my friends are wanting to play as a cleric and I am wondering what I would do to make that work?
I feel much the way you do about gods. They're so much more powerful than roleplaying would be able to convey, like how looking at a picture of a mountain is different to actually being at the foot of one. This particular issue is near the core of what broke up my 5 year campaign. The Cleric just couldn't get on board and his relationship to the god was central to the unfolding plot. If a god can be tricked by some puny mortal, then they aren't much as far as gods go. They need a new term. If gods are removed and unintrusive, then the concept of faith actually exists in the fantasy world. Game of Thrones did this really well, with there being worship of gods, and there DOES seem to be...SOMETHING going on with it, but we're not going to know. That's a god. Something to believe in, not know. Anything less is lying or too full of itself. Far more interesting than X God wants me to go do X thing because they're just another npc.
Definitely more in the shadows. The gods have better things to do. The PCs need to be the protagonists.
I agree! It's just how I run my games, but I wouldn't say no to running a high fantasy game. I had a friend that ran one where they WERE the gods and it sounded fascinating to me.
4:00
Gods sitting on their clouds. "Awwww you need help? That's cute!"
I use a D100 to determine if a god does anything. They usually have to roll a 96+, figure in any modifiers. Then I have a second roll to determine what they do. Keeps the god issue you mention under control. Some gods in my world use angels or lesser deities to communicate.
I like the idea of a d100
Had an idea for a goddess once, Ona the goddess of healing, act as the priestess of her own travelling shrine. It was a small group of about a dozen clerics and paladins. And she kept her secret from most people (only her closest members knew). She and her shrine would travel all over offering free healing to any they found along the way. She would not raise the dead as they were no longer in her domain, but that of the death god.
I like the idea of a god hiding in the mortal world, because it raises questions as to why a god should hide, and also they get to be extremely cryptic and mystical
I like that idea too! Terrifying to think about
3:59 Tobias has found his way! He's gone the distance!
My pantheon of gods is mostly very distant and waiting for the party to reach level 17 before there's any chance to interact since they're busy doing divine stuff, with one exception. The goddess of dreams treats her followers as equals, so much so that many of her fellows don't even percieve her as divine in any way. She's just a mysterious woman to most people and a powerful witch to some. She doesn't like how snobby her fellow gods are and spends almost all of her time among mortals, almost never using her full potential. She might meet my characters in the next campaign
In your video about overcoming death, you promised in the comments to post your maiming table. I couldn't find it in that video. Think you could post it here?
Oh my! Thank you for the reminder! I'll post it here in the description and on the channel community ASAP!
Thank you for that!
When I went about making my current homebrew world one of the foundational ideas I built from was that the gods were real living things. Each Divine is a massive beastial thing that lives somewhere in the world. They each have their own personality and desire. Each of my player characters worships a unique Divine that defines their heritage and alignment. Many cultures in my world have a Divine that they revolve around. For example the Human Emperor is a bull-like Divine and the Goblins rally around this Divine that is a massive sentient cloud of blood. Since the Divine are physically in the world they can, and have, been killed. Usually this happens at the hands of other Divine, but there are other ways to kill them as well. So for all those that wish to embrace gods I say do it! Let the pantheon you create define the cultures of your gameworld and the story that plays out in it.
4:00 Displacer kitten Acquired.
I find god characters more interesting if they do one of two things:
1- Their a hyper-specific god, or have some severe limitation to keep them from becoming a deus ex machina. Think, "God of Wine" or "Goddess of the Rainbow" - The title alone implies severe limitation which doesn't let them become a cure-all, while also giving the opportunity to let them use their limiting powers in a creative way to solve whatever problems they can. (Think Dionysus from the Hades serries)
2- They are only a god in name, myth, and legend- but are never shown or interacted with. Bonus points if your players even question if this god is 'real' in the setting, or if their followers are simply crazy.
Otherwise (In my experience, at least) they seem to be a boring deus ex machina that kind of invalidates the players existence in the story. why are the players needed if the god is just ridiculously powerful? (Unfortunately, I don't think "god-slayers" helps either issue)
So I’ve been running my first campaign for a few months ago and the may I’ve structured my gods is as follows. There are gods that most people worship as actual organized religions, there’s a gif of Justice, war and conquest, knowledge, etc. no gods of things like elements for example fire, for things like that there exist a myriad of spirits that inhabit the world some will occasionally try to interact with mortals but most are either don’t want to or can’t because they are to weak. Like a tree spirit won’t be able to interact with someone at all but a tree that eventually forms a forest around itself may be able to communicate its will and even bestow boons of sorts. For example not long after the inciting incident of the campaign my players ran to a nearby forest to escape soldiers chasing them. Eventually they awoke and learned of a community or magical creatures and a man who was the forest’s champion and existed to enact its will and was given some abilities to assist in that. Lastly I have beings that essentially act as forces or nature. For example there is one being that is a destruction incarnate known as the consumer and harbinger of death and is the only force that is occasionally worshiped out of fear. But importantly what distinguishes them from gods is gods can be killed and replaced. But these spirits can’t die in the traditional sense. Part of the main plot of my campaign involves a cult called the cult of Vhexhur. They worship him as the master of undeath and lord of necromancy and all that. They are obsessed with collecting certain artifacts that will allow them to bring him into the mortal realm as these forces of nature can to an extent interact with the mortal realm but not majorly. At the same time at the start of this campaign my warlock had no idea for a patron so what we did is we said in his backstory when my players started the campaign in prison days before in his cell my warlock saw an ethereal sword appear before him and upon grabbing it he gained powers. So he’s a warlock by chance with no idea who his patron was. It was not until my players retrieved an artifact the cult was after and activated it with blood did it empower my warlock’s hex blade and with it giving it the ability to speak. Before it would occasionally vibrate. The sword called itself Vhexhur and explained he was the “original” Vhexhur you see forces like him are shaped in personality by how they are perceived. So a few hundred years ago the perception of Vhexhur began to change as how he was perceived became misconstrued, people started adding different views into accounts of him and so those who believed in him spread this new version so now the Lord of undeath version is how many see him and that version of him has become more powerful. The old version as a result is weaker. And many forget that he is not some lord of undeath but rather the embodiment of rebirth, rejuvenation, and resurrection. Being the only being in my world capable of resurrection and true resurrection.now and used all the power he had left to send out weapons to try and find servants that could help fight the cult influence so he could regain his strength. Overall the gods don’t interact much in my world occasionally the party may come across a powerful spirit maybe that they can speak with. But the forces of nature and “normal” gods are essentially impossible to directly contact, save for old Vhexhur which is tied to the warlock. But the other gods (not the forces) might take a mortal form to screw around in but that’s rare and no one knows it’s them.
I enjoy Greek style gods, that intervene with powerful parties frequently, but they always have their own motivation, the players are pawns, but I also love the Idea of IO the god of gods that prevents gods from intervening directly, unless there is a reason to allow it. (the framework of my current campaign, an elder entity is coming to eat worlds, IO loosens his grip on the gods to somehow allow the gods and great heroes to stop this elder being. But my campaign was based around my players eventually becoming gods, or at least having the option.)
I see it this way: gods should rarely interact directly with the world in a perceptible way, especially if they're lesser deities. However, they should interact with it all the time in invisible ways. After all, they embody certain natural phenomena and concepts that play essential roles. When they show up directly, it should be for a significant plot point that necessitates their intervention. Besides that, I can conceive of occasions where a god communicating with one of his or her followers might be a thing under specific circumstances, primarily if those followers are meant to go on a mission for their god, but rarely in person. Instead, they should usually communicate through dreams, visions, signs, and maybe prophets.
this is how I see it too! It's just more fun and interesting that way (for me) and just make it feel like they are actually gods. I mean, I don't sit around staring at ants and talking to them all day, so why would a god do that with us?
I had my characters rescue a god fallen to the earth in a cosmic event. Extremely compelling right until they actually met her. Since then I've felt like all I can do is back peddle because, no surprise, she didn't arrive with all her powers and even has forgotten most of what happened to her. This is all very sixth element I know....but the problem now is she's either unbelievably weak and no longer worth 'believing in' or she's at risk for taking the spotlight from the players. It's a lot to work around and my players generally act more interested in other story elements. I liked having them rescue her, but I should've just had her leave right away. Also...roleplaying a god in a compelling way? It's a lot of work...
that sounds super entertaining and interesting tho! I would have loved that cuz at least you go into it going "oh crap that's a GOD!" not like "oh another one eh?" or "I met one last week"
I agree with your points! I'm in a process of building my homebrew pantheon(s) and never I thought gods as interventionist beings on the mortal realm.
I'm getting the responses I expected haha. Some people agree and others are enraged LOL
I always liked the idea that clerical prayers will result in boni to saves against poison, disease or death. So the gods do intervene, but they do not do so in any visible way. And you still may fail because of "bad luck". But I agree that clerics calling down lightning from the skies or bringing back the dead every tuesday is lame and problematic.
@@xornxenophon3652 Love the idea of advantage or bonuses in those cases. Makes sense too!
Not a huge fan of direct divine intervention but i think the gods having this two way power transfer through worship is very interesting. Also i think the whole "why would anyone learn magic?" thing is a bit off. I see learned magic as being a no strings attached, less limited form of magic. Especially if you dont agree with the tenants of any of the gods, or just want magic they cant or wont provide.
The fix i see for divine intervention is well summarised in a CR quote, something like "someone will pray to the gods and their prayers will be answered because you showed up". Like a high level cleric doesn't need to rely on the gods, but a commoner might need their help more.
As such i usually remove the divine intervention feature from clerics as it also doesn't even work most of the time. I usually replace it with a set of prayers that the player can choose from that have much more limited but reliable effects.
For example
Prayer of power : roll a d100, regain a number of spell slots equal to the result as a percentage of your level (e.g. a 50 on a lvl 10 cleric would let them regain 5 levels of spell slots)
Or prayer of protection, choose one status effect, your party is immune to that status effect for a number of hours equal to your proficiency bonus
Totally hear you. Also, I like the cleric replacements! Cuz it's true, Divine Intervention doesn't work most of the time.
One of the ways I've handled it
is by leaning into it a bit. The "gods" in my story ARE detached, but their messengers are extremely active. The big thing with this is that in my world, the gods don't actually exist, and the messengers in question are just powerful people keeping up the illusion of deific figures to keep the population under their control. Any real forces in the universe that COULD be classified as gods treat the world like an anthill, completely ignoring it aside from the rare instance where one might take interest in stirring up the ants out of boredom or childlike amusement.
that's how I've always seen it too. Why would they care if they could create EVERYTHING? Love this idea
Usually in my games I set things like things: good are real and present, they power might have shaped the word in the past but they don't usually "descend" and act in first person... basically they never do something like that because they tend to be prima forces to which mortal gave maybe humanoid rapresentation or characteristic but it's more an interpretation. The way they really shape the world is through their cleric, cultists, paladin and worshippers and other creatures like celestials, devils or other that can rapresents that deity. I usually like to create some "nexus", basiccally place where you can be closer to the god and feel it's power directly, ma even in those place they don't talk directly, but they many posses a particular faithful individual (or a sacrificial one) to manifest if they need to throw hands. this would be a beatable version of the god and in case it's not enough unbreakable curses (or very resielient) are fun XD
SPOILERS FOR Baldur's Gate 3
To in BG3 there are good and bad example of way to show gods: Myrkul and Bhaal? very good, especially the first. yes it talks but it's so special cause it's the first time and it's amazing, also the apostole thing was forshadowed if you explore the tower.
Mystra? bad XD beside comments on the model that doesn't interest me, she doesn't feel goodly at all.
Me, I'm still on the fence. Like you say, cosmogeny is fun, deities not so much. For myself: in-game gods just top tiers of VINCIBLE beings, all alignments, & main role to recruit residents for afterlife politics. Still figuring out rest, but in my gameworld for now, "Balance" god weakest but well-meaning regent for "absent" creator overgods.
I tend to go Biblical with the gods in my settings. Gods will very rarely speak to certain people, whom they have chosen. Unless you are a cleric, paladin, warlock, or a character who has undergone extensive development involving a god, you will probably never converse with one (and you might have only one or two interactions in a whole campaign). However, you will probably encounter things you will understand to be signs from your deithy very often if you are in tune with them, since gods leave signs in all sorts of places.
As far as rewriting events, this doesn't happen. Gods don't change time for their mortal followers. They do, however, endow their followers with strength to overcome adversity, or weaken the enemies of their followers.
4:00 Hi Tobias!
I have to disagree. At my table at least my players have been specifically pickings warlocks and clerics because I play their deities/patrons as real characters they can interact with. However, something to your point about gods being able to completely changes the story/world being a negative, I play my gods as "low power" gods. They have immense power, but with limitations. The gods power is directly tied to their worshippers and their theme they are associated with. The god of rain can only effect the weather is certain regions because that's where their followers are. This tends to give my players purpose. They like being able to ask their god "what do I do?" and get a straight forward answer.
Ultimately, I play my gods/patrons, because at our table that's what my players want. If that's not the same thing at your table, then don't do that.
Great video!
Yeah totally! Appreciate the respectful way you approached this.
I'm not AGAINST Gods, I just think there's a way of approaching them that I haven't found I like yet. I always have this bad taste in my mouth. Gods exist in my world, but they don't interact without going through someone else. There's always a conduit.
But as a player, if I went into a high magic game and I was prepped for that setting, I don't see why I couldn't have fun! It's just not how I would DM and that's okay!
You're right tho, I definitely have to approach warlocks and clerics and such in different ways at my table. There's a conversation that needs to be had with my players but I always choose players that love the low magic stuff
@@TheFantasyForge Totally agree. The number one rule for me as a DM is, Are my players having fun? Will they enjoy this? What are their thoughts on it?
I always talk about stuff like this with my players out of game and make sure they like the game we are playing.
And if I want to try something new that is supposed to be a surprise, I usually just ask them to trust me for a bit.
Example: I started a new campaign with them a couple months ago and we tried something new. I had everyone make characters and then asked them to trust me. I told them we are going to play a one shot with different characters to set up the events of the campaign. Then I made new character sheets and gave them to the players. What they didn't know (but honestly figured out really quickly) was that I swapped everyone's characters. They woke up in a dungeon with no memory and had to figure out how to back track out to the dungeon and restore their memories. They did this rather quickly and everyone got back into the character they designed.
It was a fun way to get the players used to what their team could do, while giving everyone little snippets of everyone else's backstory.
I would not suggest this for just any table. I talked to my players and they trust me. All of that to say, whether its gods or high/low magic worlds or anything like that. The DM should always talk to the players and see what they like.
Again thanks for the great video, sorry for the novel of a response!
@@GeeZeRFroG Nah I love this stuff. It also helps me learn some new tricks as a DM. That sounds like a lot of fun honestly. I love DM tricks like that haha
I take the Xena approach to gods. If you've gotten a gods attention, they might just keep showing up. You could arrive at their temple, and they themselves might just be there. They have power enough to change the world, but they're mostly off doing their own thing, living their life, visiting temples and answering prayers when their clergy can't do the job for them. You can date them if they like you enough, or they might murder you with their own hands if they hate you enough.
Displacer beast would've made Hercules a cooler movie, not gonna lie.
In my game I take a bit of an ancient Greece approach, while there are definitively divine powers at work, much of religion and faiths create personas that gives explanation to those works. The religions and faiths being woven into a narrative that is easier to understand, or even just a convenient way to explain and appeal to the masses. Mortal perceptions of deities are almost exclusively mortal constructs.
I'm all for it! I love that you mention that they are "mortal constructs", that's the big thing for me. It really needs to feel like that for me to really get down with the style. That's just me though! Thanks for the comment tho!
Yeah, one way to get over the gods just appearing as people is really to emphasize that they are not human. Raiden from Mortal Kombat has been described as 'a thunderstorm in human form', now imagine if that was the best way to describe a god of the Tempest when they appear, a literal thunderstorm somehow forced into a humanoid shape. Or a god of fire, who is a raging landscape devouring inferno shaped like a guy. A being who is basically world shattering devastation and destruction held back behind a few layers of skin.
Communicate with them? They are cosmic being who control nature, in some cases the literal forces of nature itself. They can understand you, but the other way around? Visions, dreams of such frightening description, not nightmare, but powerful emotional waves, that are not your own, that your mind has to translate into images. Hell, make the player character take psychic damage because their mind is literally linking up with a higher being's.
3:59 I see a displacer kitty!
Hello Tobias!
Give him scritches
In my setting, in the past eons, gods walked the earth but civilizations couldnt really develop next to these huge powerhouses, getting reset all the time. So at one point the gods had this huge all out war which resulted in all of them being left in their own plane. And thats where the 'good' gods decided to ramp up a divine gate, so that no being could travel between planes, once it reached a certain powerlevel. All so that civilization could thrive.
Theres alot more, but in essence thats the status quo.
I think its a neat setting. Some gods might try to find a way to destroy it and turn things back they were, some others arent bothered by it. But the gods that built that gate could always break it down again if they must, but it would likely result in all of civilization being wiped out again. So theres a reason of why the gods dont want to mess with mortals. At least, as long as they dont have to.
Also it makes for an interesting plot if a mortal tries to become a god (since it would be possible in my setting). Because if he managed to do it on the material plane, he would be the only god in it and could do whatever he wants. And if his or her intentions are evil, the 'good' gods probably would tear down the gate again. Which of course is to be avoided at all cost.
I like that idea! It's intriguing and gives reasoning and history. I have a similar idea for my own world
@@TheFantasyForge Wow, thanks!
I like to hear the episodes like a podcast so I haven't seen Tobias yet 😔
He's there in spirit...watch out for the tentacles!
10:10 well yes. they are mighty beeings. and i think this is a cool concept that the nordic mythology aces. gods are powerful beeings, but just people in some way. and this opens the door for an ingame atheist, that sees them as "just" higher beeings, not worthy of worship.
From my campaign, when the cleric prays, they do feel the presence of their god/goddess. The deity depends on what is felt when they're prayed to. What they don't know is that it's only an aspect of the deity. This aspect doesn't have the full power of the deity and can do minor things akin to prestidigitation. For example, when the party was on the sea and wondering if they were going the right way, the diety showed a beacon of light that only the cleric could see in the correct direction.
Oooo I love that only the Cleric sees it. That's actually really cool and would probably give me chills as a player!
@@TheFantasyForge I'm glad you liked the idea! I wanted it to be unique to the cleric and it actually made for some cool roleplay. The cleric taught the fighter how to pray and after a few days on the ship the fighter could see it too leading to a potential Paladin multiclass for them. It was super cool for the story!
@@Kurraku Oooo that's character development. Love that. I was about to ask if they multiclasses and saw the last part haha.
I'm currently going through a setting in which there are no gods but spirits given power through belief and faith though they also don't.. communicate in any meaningful way but 'clerics' exist to translate every movement into some kinda meaning.
Which depending on the cleric can be SUS AF lol
In my first game the gods were just very powerful beings no different then ppl who got lvl 20 or so. As such they were very reactionary or ego driven but also in constant cold war with one another, if one moved it meant another could so they could only act in secretive ways.
For my campaign i wanted do that not only there is only one god ( like in the Christianity ), but that is even so much distant from the mortal plane, even to the interaction level, so what can i do when i can't just tell my players do not play classes like cleric or paladin?
Are there angels/saints or other celestial beings the clerics could pray to?
Also there not a religion for this god? If so there would be clerics
@@SamuriLemonX18 i mean, there are no angels or other celestial beings, yet.
Then if it there was a religion to this god, the god in question is not very participatory, so the clerics will obtain no power from the god 😅
cool idea
I think it depends a lot more in what's the point of deities for the narrative and the setting
I actually dislike the idea of gods transcending time and being all powerful really really boring and prone to causing plot holes (if gods are actually intelligent and not just the "manifestation" of domain)
In my setting the gods are just powerful and important people, they're limited but can and do a lot, they can be hurt and killed - but why?
For the setting it's because gods are "beacons" of what mortals can accomplish and reach, the point of the cycle of life and reincarnation is evolution, moral, magical, technological etc - (basically Fantasy Spiritism XD )
For the narrative it's because if gods ever truly get involved they can be "humane", they can be people with a whole new dimension to be explored and all the drama instead of just "plot objects"
That's why in my setting I opted to have the 'gods' simply be beings born from what is essentially the Weave in the forgotten realms. Beings born from the pure magical energy of the universe that people worship, rather than truly divine beings. There is actual gods too, but they are uninterested in the world, treating it more so as a playground than actually something they rule over. Mortals are nothing but entertainment for them because they are so far above everything else.
I like it when they are hungry, feared, and avoided at all costs. I also like cosmic horror. Go figure.
I like the gods walking the world of mortals. It's a legendary rarity but there's great stories and fables we have in the real world. Why not have that occur in game? Miracles don't happen daily or commonly for the adventuring party but it can happen. Why wouldn't a god give a blessing to a group advancing its desires?
0:54 To argue you point about it being weird that gods choose to present themselves as humanoid. In the bible it is made clear that god made man (or Adam) in his own image, meaning that adam when he was alive looked similar or exactly like god himself. Therfore it would make sense that most religions would have a similar belief and in fantasy, where there is no question whether the gods are real, the gods could has made the choice to create their humanoid species in their own image just like the god Yahweh did.
I like my divine gods to be real and interactive npcs that wander around the lands they are worshiped in. They are beggars or healers or soldiers that you can see every day and they blend in to the villages and cities they inhabit unknown to everyone but the most devout. Players can only find them when the god wants to be found and interaction is small and not miraculous. My eldritch gods are ones that are untouchable, they do things for their own self benefit and will not answer a call unless a sacrifice is made. Magic gods are real and reside in set locations where they can research and expand magic.
that's why I like high magic.
magic is everything, so gods are just a part of it. they do great stuff? great! but they are also the ones asking to do stuff; develope magic, grow, praise me, all that stuff comes because these gods care mostly about certain nations, not every single one. so having your little guys be better than the little guys in the next land is cool.
considering that mankind saw the arrival of gods and that they weren't always there since the beginning and that gods are basically celebrities, it makes it much more simple.
sure, they come and fix stuff, only when they aren't working or keeping out evil gods.
Having them "grounded" makes you able to treat them just as any other npc, but with the gravitas befitting of a god.
but it's pretty hard to do tbh... in my campaign it took basically 3 years to make it clear that gods just appear, say their shit, joke around and do crazy stuff before doing something else to my players.
which is weird, because I did have a restaurant famous because a god had dinner in it a few times and not a few cerimonies that weren't that subtle, not considering the lore I gave them for starter.
had to make a god come out to eat a truck load of pizza to really spell it out.
Yeah any game I've been in where gods showed up always felt kind of underwhelming but I think that's just me. I've always preferred the sort of "eldritch" level of Gods lol
Tobias at 4:01 ready to go the distance.
just needs scritches
I am thinking about an god that isnt an person or even an being mor of an colectiv thaugt that is the summ of hundreds of thousand...Idk (still in the process)so it can not interact directly whith the world more likely does it manipulate a summ of small things over a time to get to his goal.
This gives me Matrix vibes for some reason. It would be interesting to see a fantasy twist on that
i believe that if a sistem exist's players must interact with them in one point or some way. That's why i don't like gods and tend to be dead in my settings
4:00 OMG displacer Kitty hiiii 🐈⬛✨
Read dragonlance.
Eberron - no problems
I want the player be like this act like this.
This can be so Meta just gave the gods the same intention for the player as you do as a DM.
3:59 Tobias is the greatest source of ancient mysteries!
Lol he just becomes a God out of nowhere 😂😭
It's the destiny he was born for!
My world's number of gods have been severely reduced by a God Eater and now the gods are trying to make more gods from the mortals to help them battle this God Eater
God Eater is a horrifying thing to read lol
The Gods would agree with you hahaha
@@darius_cummins-thorne1997 🤣
I would recommend if you're bringing gods in, don't adhere to the D&D pantheons, expand it and get creative with your heirarchy.
I treat the gods in my game more like spoiled trust fund kids with too much power and too much time, but still bound by cosmic law.
Generally speaking the gods cause more problems than they solve and the players often end up with a monkey's paw situation where any help may come at a cost.
Personally i feel as though Gods and religions are often very poorly done in many settings because things are often black and white.... this is true and this is not true.
I feel as though having any kind of god that is even capable of showing itswlf or having any kind of effect of the world really takes away from intrigue and thrill religions and spiritualism. That thrill and intrigue, being the mystery.
When i craft religions in my settings i often look at comonalities and coincidences that can be found within the cultures im creating, then craft religions and dieties based on their beliefs.... which is what religion is! No one knows who is correct or who is wrong or which gods are real or fake which ads a completely different dyniamic to my settings and Table top games.
Religions and gods are complicated and spiritualism means a lot of things for a lot of differnt people.
THIS. No one knows who is correct in religion. But in D&D it's sort of like...nobody AND everybody is? Religion isn't a part of it at all. It's just, "here the Gods".
But in reality, there would be so many religions that spring up. If you KNEW a God was real, how could you argue one religion against another? It just doesn't make sense.
Agreed, it's hard to find an in-between especially when introducing magic into the mix but I think I haven't found one that makes sense yet.
I'm building a world whrere gods arent acitve and send no visions for anyone and such. Churches are based around saints, and these do send visions and infuence and answer to prayers and all that.
I made the god of my universe a all powerful idiot, he’s not a bad person, in fact when the character meet him he’s really nice. It’s just that humanity was a complete accident, and he’s so powerful he causes unintentional harm because he powers work on a macro level and humans are very small. He’s works through humans because otherwise he might accidentally implode the solar system.
LMAO okay this I approve 😭😂 that sounds like so much fun
tobias at 4:00
A 5th of this video is a prepackaged ad.
I made my own set of gods and the gods aren’t actually gods they are higher beings seen as gods and have the powers the typical person sees as godly which they got from using a artifact that has the power of the true gods of the world but they have a rule about never interfering to act as a true god but some gods interfere and that’s where the story of my campaign starts the gods interfered too much and the wrong person is doing something against them
I meaaann if we're gonna be real, most pantheons have gods as either just bigger humans or beings that made man kind in their image so it would actually make LESS sense if they weren't human like
Its almost like when you're a child and think your parents or other adults are the biggest strongest greatest things in the world then you grow up more and realize they're just bigger more experienced and more grown people
The issue in the video is really only a problem with monotheism and dick measuring contests between sects in polytheistic religions that have to constantly justify why they're better than the other guys
Chinese cultivators are the most interesting characters in any story
It's just you.
I mean, a lot of gods in D&D are based on Greek and Roman myths. It's totally fine to have rather personal and human gods. If the gods created humans, elves, dwarves, etc. surely there is something relatable between a humanoid and a god. It is rather rare for humans to create entire stories about things which are not only non-human, but not humanized. Gods of myth are a reflection of humanity and nature.
Saying that they're ruining your fantasy games is kinda silly clickbait (that I fell for). Now, you have a point for low magic games. Direct divine intervention does not really fit with that vibe. But most D&D is not low magic. The rules of the game do not lend themselves well to that.
I respectfully disagree with most of what you said lol. But that's okay, to each their own.
Also not looking for clickbait, it's a legit thought I had when I was in a session recently. It literally pulls me out of the immersion because they just don't feel like Gods and more. Same thing when watching Percy Jackson or anything like that. But like I said, that's just a preference thing.
I also thing you can easily have low magic settings in DND as I've done it and so do lots of other people. It's a matter of controlling races and classes. And maybe a little homebrew here and there
@@TheFantasyForge Respectfully, whether intentional or not, it is clickbait. Your thesis isn't even that gods are ruining fantasy worlds. It's moreso that humanized gods are ruining immersion in lower fantasy D&D games.
As for low fantasy D&D, it's only truly low fantasy if you don't let players play spellcasters, except for maybe a multiclass dip. Once you start getting 2nd or 3rd level spells, I lose all immersion in the idea of low fantasy.
I will say, you're right in a lot of ways. Plenty of times humanized gods are done poorly and end up being massive plot holes or remove agency.
@@memyselfishness Yeahhh, I still disagree. I played a game. I had a thought about how it broke the immersion for me. I expressed that thought in a video and why I don't add Gods in my game.
Ultimately it comes down to a difference in play style and we can go back and forth but it doesn't matter. Play how you want, it's all good!
Thanks for the comment!
@@TheFantasyForge I'm still pretty upset at your title, and the fact that you don't think it's clickbait is insane. "I had a bad experience" becoming "this is ruining your world" is a crazy clickbaity take. In fact, they're not even ruining the world. You're claiming they're ruining the stories.
@@memyselfishness Okay! Thanks for the comment!
- Low-magic
- In DnD.
You know, in this particular case its not the gods to blame.
That's a very Christian perspective. I mean look at Greek Mythology 90% of it happens because Zeus gets horny for some random girl.
The idea of gods intervening all the time is way older than the concept of a distant god that only shows up once. Just look at the oldest Story of Mankind, the epic of gilgamesh.
.
I'm not Christian lol. And I totally understand and agree. But you can't equate fantasy elements/gods to religion and religious ideologies from a world like ours where magic isn't real. They were made for different reasons. One comes from a fantasy history while ours comes from different attempts at understanding our humanity and understanding our world. I'm trying to look at it objectively from a fantasy world point-of-view.
When you look at D&D gods, everyone believes in ONE pantheon (sure you can make several, but then, which ones rule?). Religion isn't a factor. Faith is sure, but everyone sort of knows that gods exist and they're "up there somewhere" but to what degree they interact is up to the DM and they're style.
For me, having them get involved just doesn't do it for me. They don't feel "all powerful", they feel like NPC's.
If that's your play style, more power to you! I'm just stating an opinion haha. Thanks for the comment!
Heresy detected 😂
I was never here...👀
It bothers you that fantasy portrayal of gods is the same kind of portrayal that humans have done for thousands and thousands of years? I'm sorry what? The gods in fantasy are not the modern Christian god all powerful omnipresent beings who's true form can't be contemplated. Seriously? If you like world building and want to world build gods how about you look at how and why humans have done it?