7.5 is the correct black level setting for analog NTSC outside of Japan; there they used 0. In RGB terms, that equates to 16/16/16 and 235/235/235 for black and white versus 0/0/0 and 255/255/255. Bob at RetroRGB interviewed an Australian developer who said that he uses a Panasonic DIGA Blu-ray player/HDD recorder for captures. Not as a passthrough, but to record to the hard drive. It has a LAN port, and he said that he just points VLC to it on his network and can grab the recordings straight off its drive. He says it straightens out the worst stuff he throws at it. They were common in Japan and Australia -- and they record in h264, not mpeg2 like my Philips DVDR3575H units (I've found two at local Goodwill stores for $11.99 a pop, complete with remotes and drives full of recordings). They're inexpensive enough that I might grab one to play around with.
If anyone is looking for one of these - afaik the functionality is present in pioneers from at least the Pioneer DVR-_30 and newer models, and Sony RDR-HX_50 and newer. The sonys with this are basically using the same chipset (fron NEC) and firmware as the pioneers just with different branding (older Sonys are completely different and don't have this functionality so check up the manual that it has a similar menu with similar image options). I do think they can be a bit rare to find in the US though. Can confirm the results in the video from my own testing (and have a video showing similar results on a PAL tape) - very good but not quite as good stabilization as the panasonics and a bit more prone to frame drops but much more configurable and also in case of eu/aus models don't have issues with clipping brights. And also as noted in other comment - EU/AUS models support PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is useful for digitizing NTSC tapes in Europe without needing a dedicated multi-system vcr (Both these and EU/AUS Panasonics can be switched to NTSC but Panas only support standard NTSC) There are also one or two Toshiba models that are based around a similar chipset At least the european RD-XS24 which I have performs very similarly though the firmware is very different, it also has a bunch of options though no option for changing system. Most toshibas are very differt made by different OEMs though so not something to rely on.
Superb video on this topic. For my thoughts, I have the Pioneer DVR-560HX. It is the most amazing stand alone I have ever owned for everything from pass thru clean up, to even stand alone one off DVD disc recording. It corrects almost anything you throw at it. The set up is basically very similar to the 640H-S you mentioned with even a few more added 'deep dive' settings. I found a working spare recently for sale and snapped it up because I want a backup just in case my original were to die. Highly recommend!!
This is almost the device (mine doesn't have an X for DVB) that I want to test in Hamburg (PAL) via 4:4:4 HDMI out with a Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder HD PCIe (2.0 or higher) card. At least when I've finally beaten Windows 10🤮
Pioneer's video adjustment menu is really impressive. BTW, you can pull out the recorder's hard drive and use the software ISObuster to copy the video recordings to your encoding PC without having to burn a disc and then rip it.
@@TTVEaGMXde I've used that with one of the Sony variants (RDR-HX750) - it works really well though it requires going via a HDMI splitter to evade HDCP copy protection (doesn't matter whether you are playing copy protected material or not it doesn't connect at all without it same with panasonic dvd-recorders)
@@analogvideochannel4612 SONY and Panasonic are owners/co-owners of US film studios and therefore pay attention to copy protection, which can break your neck in the Consumer Electronics market. I already have 2 HDMI splitters that are supposed to work. But if they are too new, they no longer work, which is why "River" stopped selling them. I ordered them from a very small dealer (low turnover, old stock🙂) during the transition period
Thanks for much for time and effort to create this video and the comparisons! One of the many things you showed is that there are effective lower cost options for improving analog video vs spending thousands of dollars for a standalone TBC. Kudos to you!
You're welcome. But to be clear, these devices have a line TBC to help prevent wavy and flaggy video image. Those very expensive frame TBC devices are for creating a stable signal, which is meant to prevent audio and video from going out of sync. In another video I argue that the average person was avoid the need for that by using the right settings in VirtualDub. Cheers.
@@videocaptureguide It nay not be a 'frame TBC', but it's definitely a 'frame sync'. I have a JVC HR-S7800U, A Pinnacle USB-510, and a Panasonic DMR-ES16. With the JVC's TBC enabled, 2 of my tapes have top edged tearing, where 1 field is good, and the other is flagging. With the JVC's TBC disabled and the Panasonic in the chain, it fixes the tearing. But in scenes where the broadcast signal itself glitched, resulting in a rolling frame, the JVC's TBC alone will insert frames, causing the audio to drift. But with the Panasonic in the mix, it records the exact same image as in the video, with no inserted frames, and no audio drift. That's literally what a frame TBC does. It also fixes vertical jitter that appears if using the JVC's TBC. The only real drawback is what it does to the colours. On a side note... the audio drift after dropped frames is only in VirtualDub. Capturing in AmaRecTV still keeps sync after inserting frames. At least in my experience it does with Hauppauge cards.
@@videocaptureguide the Panasonics don't lose sync, even if the tape itself is garbled. I have a tape where the frame rolls from a transmisson glitch, and the capture doesn't insert or drop, keeping the same rolling frame as you see on analog tv, whereas capturing without the Panasonic, inserts frames and loses sync. That's literally a frame tbc.
@@michaelbinbcIn my tests with the ES15 in the workflow, the number of dropped frames or inserted frames reported in VirtualDub is much less, but it is not zero. Are you sure you are not getting any dropped/inserted frames with your Panasonic in the workflow?
holy crap... not sure why my comments keep disappearing. Let's try this again... Pinnacle USB-510 from lordsmurf, Panasonic DMR-ES16, VirtualDub 1.9.11 with 'disable resync when integrated audio/video capture detected' (ie: the card itself does the sync). This is 100% rock solid... no drops, no inserts, and audio still in sync... even after a glitch in the tape.
IMO the ES15 is performing better throughout the side-by-side. At a few spots, the Pioneer has some rainbow-colored bands across the width of the screen that aren't as prominent on the Panasonic. Example at 5:39, middle of the screen, guy's shirt as he sits next to the bed. This same effect also pops up at the top of the screen. Also, the Panasonic cleans up the skew beneath the head-switch at the bottom near-perfectly while the Pioneer leaves more wiggling and colour flicker. Theoretically, a tape with bad flagging at the top throughout would fair better using the Panasonic. I think comparisons on the forums have shown this to be true. DMR-ES15 does have a Line-In NR On/Off control. It's just stupidly hidden: when set to line input, hit Display and navigate to Video. Anyway, I agree with your comment that if one has both, it may be best to use the Pioneer for most tapes and reserve the Panasonic for the worst. Thanks for the comparison and commentary. Another great video!
I have used the Panasonic ES-15 with passthrough quasi TBC for my 1976 Sanyo V-Cord2, 1977 Quasar VX and 1980 Technicolor CVC Micro video captures. It is a very easy to to use machine with great availability and price. It does tend to increase overall brightness which can easily be compensated for with the free downloadable version of OBS Studio video capture software.
Love the video. The ES-10's are dirt cheap to purchase faulty and cheap to fix. They work well on the signal as well. I have the Pioneers as well but never tried as pass thru.
Was curious about what you meant by faulty. So I visited your channel and watched your video where you replace faulty capacitors to get the ES10 working again: ruclips.net/video/j88qpwyCGEI/видео.html I would love to learn how to do that because as old electrics get old, I think our society needs a place for how to restore the best of these types of units.
@@videocaptureguideMost will have bad power supply caps as most were probably plugged in and left in standby most of their lives. Most also have bad SMT caps on the digital board which you can’t really see easily at a quick glance because they are mounted upside down 🙃, but I haven’t heard of anyone other than me replacing those, so they must not be super critical to picture output. Power supply caps are easy to tell because the unit will either refuse to power on or might just not fully boot up
ES15 hands down. It cleans up the colour abberations at the top of the screen. My preference for capture is to use a stand-alone TBC/Frame Sync, and take the output from that to a Blackmagic Teranex which is able to do some terrific processing in real time, such as saturation, black level, Gain,, hue etc, but it also has a fantastic noise reduction that operates in a recursive way that helps reduce luma and chroma noise. It can also upscale/downscale the resolution as well as the format. Example, converting NTSC to PAL etc. The the output from the Teranex is fed via SDI to a Blackmagic SDI capture card in the computer, where I can capture full bitrate 8-bit or 10-bit YUV/RGB, Motion Jpeg, Quicktime uncompressed 8-bit/10-bit YUV/RGB, Quicktime DVCPRO HD and DPX 10-bit RGB.
I've found the Teranex 2D anyway creates these odd sort of motion trails, so it's not something I'd use personally unless you've found a way to correct that?
@@orihalcon8693 To be perfectly honest, I have never noticed that with my 2D at all. If I use the noise reduction that's built into the TBC instead which uses a frame blending technique, then I get noticeable trails.
If you can share a link to a part of the video at a RUclips link or IMGUR.com please do so we can see what it looks like exactly. Or else look at the video attached here and let me know if that is what you see? If it is, then read the comments in that thread as those experts will be of more help that me. www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/9310-how-common-vhs.html
@videocaptureguide Hi i have since purchased a Panasonic DMR-ES10 will test it once it arrives, is the video quality better if transferring a VHS tape by SVideo. I have a JVC SVHS VCR and wondering if the video quality would be improved if connecting by SVideo, Please advise, Thanks.
The Line TBC in passthrough mode should work on the ES10 regardless of which port you use (Scart or S-Video). Why do you believe that the LineTBC is not having an effect?
Have a look at this discussion at DigitalFAQ from someone in the same situation. It might help. www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/9310-how-common-vhs.html
I don't know. I opened it up to have a look but there are no markings that would help. I had one unit where the dvd drive didn't work. I tried a dvd cleaner disk but it didn't help. You could try opening the case and cleaning the lens manually. Since I only use the ES15 (and ES16) in passthrough mode, I don't even use the DVD recorder anyway.
I recently went on ebay and bought an ES-10 to capture VHS tapes and make the transfers enhanced. I have everything set up. Can you please tell me how to make it all work? Do i need to mess with the settings of the ES-10? I am quite impressed by your video results!!! Maybe i should have purchased an ES-15 instead. Please let me know.
The Panasonic ES10 is, according to experts, a bit better than the ES15 for nerdy reasons. Bottom line, you made a good choice. You will need the remote to access the settings on either device. Here is how to set up the ES10. -Connect the SVHS VCR (S-Video out) to ES10 LINE 1 port - Connect another S-Video cable from the out port to the next item in your workflow, typically your capture device - You can also use the yellow RCA cable (aka composite cable) instead of the S-Video cable in the connection, but S-Video cables/connections are supposed to be a bit better. - By the way, you should also pass the audio (red and white) cables to the ES10, and then out to the capture device. Although the ES10 doesn't do anything to the audio, I learned the hard way that if you connect the red and white from the VHS to capture device directly, it gets there a tiny bit faster than the video and then the audio/video is out of sync. So don't repeat my newbie mistake! - Turn on ES10 - Press the Input Select button on the remote - Set the input source to IN1 (to match what you did on the back) - Don't put a DVD inside, yet. - It is recommended to turn off Digital Noise Reduction (DNR) because most folks do that stuff in software later on. So, to turn it off press Display button on remote > Video menu > Line-in NR > Off - Then you have to adjust the Black Level Control: press Functions button on remote > Other Functions > Setup > Video > Black Level Control. - If you are in North America, the NTSC recommendation is Input Level: Lighter / Output Level (Composite / S-Video): Darker That's it for the ES10. Next step is to make sure you set the Timing options correctly in VirtualDub. I have a video on the channel about that.
@@coolcatrick3454 The Pioneer doesn't remove all the flaggy wavy video to the same high degree as the ES10 but it it almost does... and it does so with less negative effect on the brightness/contrast. So if you find one of the Pioneer units inexpensive, pick one up. It may be enough especially if your tapes isn't as bad as the one in my test.
@@videocaptureguide I bought an ES10 a bit more than a month ago, and I get the glitches and the wavy lines, tearing, etc. perhaps my tapes are so bad that I need a frame TBC, or the capacitors are bad on the ES10. I saw an ES15 at a thrift store yesterday and I may go back today and buy it, and try that out to see if that does anything with the glitches and tearing and stuff. I shoulda bought it yesterday.
@@videocaptureguide i haven't had much luck with stabilizing wavy video that has tearing issues with my ES10. Wondering if my tapes are just THAT bad, or if there is a problem with the capacitors in it. i just saw an ES15 at a thrift store yesterday. i should go buy it, to see if the issues go away.
If you look at the extreme left of the image, the Pioneer 640 has a bit of wobble to it still which means it isn't starting each video line exactly in the same place, which is basically the point of a line TBC. Definitely is better to use than not for the overall image improvement, but the ES15 does a little better at that specifically as there is no "left side wobble". Apparently the European models of the EZ series use a different chipset and can have the best of both worlds with an ES10/15 like effect, but also having HDMI output which can then be captured for a single analog to digital conversion in the chain. I do like the proc-amp features in the 640 though. Would be interesting to see a video on how changing the different noise reduction settings on the 640 actually affects the capture output. Since we (and you) appreciate the objectiveness of your comparisons, you might want to look at acquiring a composite or S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope. That is easier to visualize signal noise and levels. A histogram is similar, but different. It will also show you where black levels truly are (anything below 7.5IRE will be displayed as black). The brightest scenes should not have signals that exceed 100IRE which is basically 714mv and that will tell you if the output of your different players is truly hot or not. The dangers with levels exceeding 100IRE is that your capture card may clip levels beyond that assigning all values brighter than that to 100IRE which loses dynamic range and loses data permanently. If the capture card has automatic gain control that is working appropriately, it will dynamically reduce the brightness of the entire image to keep the max white level at or below 100IRE. This can make the picture look odd however if the image brightness appears to be moving up and down to compensate for this.
Thanks for this. I didn't notice that little wobble in the Pioneer 640 that you mention. Maybe the conclusion should be that the ES10/15 is best for very difficult tapes. However, for less extreme wavy tapes, the Pioneer might be a better choice because it produces a more pleasing color than the ES10/15. Re S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope, I feel like I don't have the expertise to understand what I would be seeing. But if I did get a used inexpensive one, which model would you recommend?
@@videocaptureguide The only series that I am aware of that have actual S-Video input/output plugs are the MagniMonitor branded ones which you will see some examples of on ebay. The catch with those is that certain models such as the MM400 have a proprietary power adapter that is hard to chase down, so you'd want a model like the MM410 that has a regular power input cable. The absolute most budget and versitile option would be a Videotek VTM-100 if you're willing to mess with BNC adapters and 75 ohm terminators which is pretty straightforward. The VTM-100 can be had for $75 shipped or less and don't require odd power adapters, but you'll need to use S-Video to BNC cables if you want to feed it an S-Video signal - it actually requires the presence of composite at the same time as S-Video as a reference according to the manual, but that setup is pretty straightforward in the manual and all VCRs will have the simultaneous composite out to hook up. The specifications you can sometimes see online don't show S-Video (YC) as an input option, but the manual PDF online shows that it does support it an how to hook it up. It can also do waveform monitoring of component, composite video, and can also do audio level monitoring as a bonus. The beauty of that model specifically is that all of those signals can have "loopthrough" connectors so that the signal can be passed back out of the device and the signal isn't terminated at the device which some vectorscopes won't allow you to do with anything other than composite in a lot of cases. Most vectorscopes also won't let you look at component signals at all. If you are just looking for luma levels and a general idea of chroma noise, looking at composite instead of S-Video will probably convey similar information as to whether noise is reduced or added and if luma levels are stable before and after a passthrough device in your video chain. With both of the above, they output a composite signal to display the actual scope output, so you'll need another capture device for screen or video grabs or a composite monitor to view the output. This might be an ideal use for a DV firewire converter since we don't care about 4:1:1 colorspace when capturing a vectorscope and waveform monitor images. Any capture card will like the signal coming out of one of these monitors though since it is digitally generated and won't have timebase errors.
Yeah for the models sold in Europe and Australia the panasonic later models work similarly to the ES15, they kept using a chipset from panasonic, while on the north american models they use a completely different chipset originally developed by LSI logic (later branded magnum+ some off the shelf video decoder IC without the same tbc features). Not sure when it comes to japanese models. So afaik in north america you only really have the choice of the 2005 and 2006 models sans the es20 and I think es40 which also use a similar chipset to the later models and lack the tbc functionality (though not entirely sure about the es40) - that being afaik DMR-ES10, ES30, EH50, ES15, ES16, ES25 ES35, EH55 and EH75 and I think ES45V. The even older models may or may not work to some degree. One issue on the european/australian models is that they have a tendency to clip whites in some cases, which is one bonus of using the pioneer/sony dvd-recorders as demonstrated in this video even though the tbc/stabilization isn't quite as good. The Euro/aus variants of those also have support for PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is very useful for digitizing NTSC tapes as a lot of pal decks can output that while the EU/Aus Panasonics only have support for standard NTSC which requries a proper multi-system or US vcr. The US variants of either don't have the ability to switch between pal and ntsc afaik.
For black levels, O IRE is what they use in Japan, and 7.5 IRE is what we use in America. Or used. That's a tl;dr on IRE, from what I've been able to learn.
Now that you mention it, I think I read that too and forgot. Anyway, at 8:03 I show the histogram of the same paused MiniDV tape with 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. So, I guess I could have left it at 7.5 IRE and then adjusted the other settings to arrive at the same level.
No. I have a 1TB HDD for Windows XP and the very few applications. And a 2TB HDD for the captured AVI files. An SSD would not help as these drives are fast enough. And there are some issues with SSD in Windows XP aparantly related to TRIM that make it more trouble than it's worth. I used an SSD on my main Windows 10 computer.
I have not used it. But Sanlyn at the forums says ES10 has the best line TBC, followed by the ES15, and then the ES25. However, he says that the "ES25 tends to blow out whites to a worse degree than earlier Panasonics."
Pioneer DVR with HDD is great until you need to manipulate its HDD. The recording format is so encrypted, that no PC can read the HDD content. It uses some proprietary file system and codec/encryption nobody managed to break up by now. The only way to copy/move/save you HDD recordings is to either record them onto DVD or to play back them and capture via analog output. So, if your HDD breaks, you'd most likely loose all the files on the HDD. Funny part, HDD can break if it's too full (yes, HDD may be in perfect shape, but if it gets too full and the recorder cannot write some additional files on it, it will report "HDD error" and all your videos will get lost. If HDD actually broke or you want to recover your functional but full HDD, you'll need a special remote control available only to the authorised service centers, and, of course, they'll charge you for that. You may buy the remote via e.g., Ebay, but it will probably cost you more than a new HDD - just to push one button on that "special" remote only once! Fun fact: this "special" function will FORMAT your old HDD and ERASE all your videos, but will make it work again. The DVR would see it as a new, empty HDD. You can install the new HDD the same way. Try PC cloning, you say? Well, it seems that Pioneer's format saves the size of the HDD, so if you use different size HDD, cloning wouldn't work. If you try the same size HDD, than you'd be cloning the error that made the original HDD unusable, so the new HDD also wouldn't work in the DVR. Therefore, two golden rules when using your Pioneer DVR with built in HDD for storage: NEVER fill its HDD more that two-thirds of its capacity, (i.e, erase old videos regularly) and copy your favourite videos to DVDs as soon as possible!
Isobuster is able to extract video from many Pioneer DVD hard drives - have used it successfully here, it’s very straightforward and just extracts recordings as regular MPEG files.
I have a Pioneer DVR-220 and yes, it uses a weird format for the DVD recording but I have played a DVD on my PC. Perhaps they changed the format over the years.
@@coolcatrick3454 afaik DVDs made on Pioneer DVR can be easily played on any PC or other DVD player. The difficulty is when you remove its HDD and install it into a PC. No ordinary operating system will recognise HDD's file system or if you manage to extract files from it, no ordinary video playing software will play those files.
I suppose you could use the ES15 to play a DVD to your television. But as a reminder, it is not advised to use the ES15 to record your VHS tapes. While the Line TBC is very helpful and works well, the circuitry that creates the mpeg2 files (vob files) are a weak point. So that's why the ES10/15/16 are recommended to be used as a passthrough device.
@@videocaptureguide oh im not using it to record, its just a pass through - i should have clarified that the tray is broken and goes in and out during passthrough and the little "tray closed, tray open" overlay appears on screen so sometimes randomly during an hour long capture it will open and close on its own and i have to restart so i dont have that little overlay on the screen
@@videocaptureguide if i hold the tray in with my finger it will still try to open but then immediately close itself since it cant physically open, the display will still show "open/closed" and it will still overlay, boggles the mind a little bit haha. I have considered trying to uninstall the tray completely since I dont actually use this device for any disc operations. i want to avoid bricking it completely because it still works great for passthrough other than those weird little overlay/tray issues - probably just need to have a backup lined up in case i do end up bricking it.
I'm thinking you need to leave the Pioneer Black level centered. It makes sense that it has more contrast (compressed histogram) and has lost detail. Lost detail includes any perceived noise. I have an ES15 and I wasn't all that impressed by it's passthrough. Perhaps I should give it another go.
@@CantankerousDave ebay looking like around $60 + $20 shipping for tested working with no remote, so probably around $80-$100 w/ tax for a fully working ES15
I have a Sony RDR-HXD890 which are essentially clones of the Pioneer. Runs the same firmware with all those same enhancement options. The only thing I do is I record to the unit itself then rip on the PC.
@@TTVEaGMXde Just use SCART, and yes it has an S-VIDEO din, on the front under the flap. I just use SCART for all signals, you can select composite, S-VIDEO and RGB in the Sony input menus
@@dlarge6502 Scart is NOT contact-safe, and I reject front inputs as a professional solution. I once had to invest in an Oehlbach Scart cable (looked silver, but was sold as gold) to get a secure contact in a SONY LCD TV Scart socket. Front AV has a long, unshielded ribbon cable and the risk of breaking the front socket because high-quality S-Video cables have a large bending radius in the room.
Pioneer/Sony wins now everybody knows. Putting aside the fact it can record onto the HDD up to 15 Mb/s mpeg2 ,files are extractable to a computer if you 're not a dummy... Enuff demonstratred
It’s quite remarkable that any device can sort out that disastrous video signal. Very impressive.
7.5 is the correct black level setting for analog NTSC outside of Japan; there they used 0. In RGB terms, that equates to 16/16/16 and 235/235/235 for black and white versus 0/0/0 and 255/255/255.
Bob at RetroRGB interviewed an Australian developer who said that he uses a Panasonic DIGA Blu-ray player/HDD recorder for captures. Not as a passthrough, but to record to the hard drive. It has a LAN port, and he said that he just points VLC to it on his network and can grab the recordings straight off its drive. He says it straightens out the worst stuff he throws at it. They were common in Japan and Australia -- and they record in h264, not mpeg2 like my Philips DVDR3575H units (I've found two at local Goodwill stores for $11.99 a pop, complete with remotes and drives full of recordings). They're inexpensive enough that I might grab one to play around with.
Adding that the model numbers are the DMR-BW750 and 850. I have no idea if it can act as passthrough for lossless capturing downstream.
If anyone is looking for one of these - afaik the functionality is present in pioneers from at least the Pioneer DVR-_30 and newer models, and Sony RDR-HX_50 and newer. The sonys with this are basically using the same chipset (fron NEC) and firmware as the pioneers just with different branding (older Sonys are completely different and don't have this functionality so check up the manual that it has a similar menu with similar image options). I do think they can be a bit rare to find in the US though.
Can confirm the results in the video from my own testing (and have a video showing similar results on a PAL tape) - very good but not quite as good stabilization as the panasonics and a bit more prone to frame drops but much more configurable and also in case of eu/aus models don't have issues with clipping brights. And also as noted in other comment - EU/AUS models support PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is useful for digitizing NTSC tapes in Europe without needing a dedicated multi-system vcr (Both these and EU/AUS Panasonics can be switched to NTSC but Panas only support standard NTSC)
There are also one or two Toshiba models that are based around a similar chipset At least the european RD-XS24 which I have performs very similarly though the firmware is very different, it also has a bunch of options though no option for changing system. Most toshibas are very differt made by different OEMs though so not something to rely on.
Superb video on this topic. For my thoughts, I have the Pioneer DVR-560HX. It is the most amazing stand alone I have ever owned for everything from pass thru clean up, to even stand alone one off DVD disc recording. It corrects almost anything you throw at it. The set up is basically very similar to the 640H-S you mentioned with even a few more added 'deep dive' settings. I found a working spare recently for sale and snapped it up because I want a backup just in case my original were to die. Highly recommend!!
This is almost the device (mine doesn't have an X for DVB) that I want to test in Hamburg (PAL) via 4:4:4 HDMI out with a Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder HD PCIe (2.0 or higher) card. At least when I've finally beaten Windows 10🤮
Pioneer's video adjustment menu is really impressive.
BTW, you can pull out the recorder's hard drive and use the software ISObuster to copy the video recordings to your encoding PC without having to burn a disc and then rip it.
@@CantankerousDave I want to have UNCOMPRESSED video (72GB/h) with complete noise.
@@TTVEaGMXde I've used that with one of the Sony variants (RDR-HX750) - it works really well though it requires going via a HDMI splitter to evade HDCP copy protection (doesn't matter whether you are playing copy protected material or not it doesn't connect at all without it same with panasonic dvd-recorders)
@@analogvideochannel4612 SONY and Panasonic are owners/co-owners of US film studios and therefore pay attention to copy protection, which can break your neck in the Consumer Electronics market. I already have 2 HDMI splitters that are supposed to work. But if they are too new, they no longer work, which is why "River" stopped selling them. I ordered them from a very small dealer (low turnover, old stock🙂) during the transition period
Thanks for much for time and effort to create this video and the comparisons! One of the many things you showed is that there are effective lower cost options for improving analog video vs spending thousands of dollars for a standalone TBC. Kudos to you!
You're welcome. But to be clear, these devices have a line TBC to help prevent wavy and flaggy video image. Those very expensive frame TBC devices are for creating a stable signal, which is meant to prevent audio and video from going out of sync. In another video I argue that the average person was avoid the need for that by using the right settings in VirtualDub. Cheers.
@@videocaptureguide It nay not be a 'frame TBC', but it's definitely a 'frame sync'. I have a JVC HR-S7800U, A Pinnacle USB-510, and a Panasonic DMR-ES16. With the JVC's TBC enabled, 2 of my tapes have top edged tearing, where 1 field is good, and the other is flagging. With the JVC's TBC disabled and the Panasonic in the chain, it fixes the tearing. But in scenes where the broadcast signal itself glitched, resulting in a rolling frame, the JVC's TBC alone will insert frames, causing the audio to drift. But with the Panasonic in the mix, it records the exact same image as in the video, with no inserted frames, and no audio drift. That's literally what a frame TBC does. It also fixes vertical jitter that appears if using the JVC's TBC. The only real drawback is what it does to the colours. On a side note... the audio drift after dropped frames is only in VirtualDub. Capturing in AmaRecTV still keeps sync after inserting frames. At least in my experience it does with Hauppauge cards.
@@videocaptureguide the Panasonics don't lose sync, even if the tape itself is garbled. I have a tape where the frame rolls from a transmisson glitch, and the capture doesn't insert or drop, keeping the same rolling frame as you see on analog tv, whereas capturing without the Panasonic, inserts frames and loses sync. That's literally a frame tbc.
@@michaelbinbcIn my tests with the ES15 in the workflow, the number of dropped frames or inserted frames reported in VirtualDub is much less, but it is not zero. Are you sure you are not getting any dropped/inserted frames with your Panasonic in the workflow?
holy crap... not sure why my comments keep disappearing. Let's try this again... Pinnacle USB-510 from lordsmurf, Panasonic DMR-ES16, VirtualDub 1.9.11 with 'disable resync when integrated audio/video capture detected' (ie: the card itself does the sync). This is 100% rock solid... no drops, no inserts, and audio still in sync... even after a glitch in the tape.
IMO the ES15 is performing better throughout the side-by-side. At a few spots, the Pioneer has some rainbow-colored bands across the width of the screen that aren't as prominent on the Panasonic. Example at 5:39, middle of the screen, guy's shirt as he sits next to the bed. This same effect also pops up at the top of the screen.
Also, the Panasonic cleans up the skew beneath the head-switch at the bottom near-perfectly while the Pioneer leaves more wiggling and colour flicker. Theoretically, a tape with bad flagging at the top throughout would fair better using the Panasonic. I think comparisons on the forums have shown this to be true.
DMR-ES15 does have a Line-In NR On/Off control. It's just stupidly hidden: when set to line input, hit Display and navigate to Video.
Anyway, I agree with your comment that if one has both, it may be best to use the Pioneer for most tapes and reserve the Panasonic for the worst.
Thanks for the comparison and commentary. Another great video!
Thanks!
This is a good comparison video. Thank you!
Another fantastic video, thanks for sharing your research and explaining everything so well! Look forward to seeing more videos.
I have used the Panasonic ES-15 with passthrough quasi TBC for my 1976 Sanyo V-Cord2, 1977 Quasar VX and 1980 Technicolor CVC Micro video captures. It is a very easy to to use machine with great availability and price.
It does tend to increase overall brightness which can easily be compensated for with the free downloadable version of OBS Studio video capture software.
Ok nice also the es15 and tge eee zed are clipping brightess .. loosing details on white areas...what a s@it
Love the video. The ES-10's are dirt cheap to purchase faulty and cheap to fix. They work well on the signal as well. I have the Pioneers as well but never tried as pass thru.
Was curious about what you meant by faulty. So I visited your channel and watched your video where you replace faulty capacitors to get the ES10 working again: ruclips.net/video/j88qpwyCGEI/видео.html
I would love to learn how to do that because as old electrics get old, I think our society needs a place for how to restore the best of these types of units.
@@videocaptureguideMost will have bad power supply caps as most were probably plugged in and left in standby most of their lives. Most also have bad SMT caps on the digital board which you can’t really see easily at a quick glance because they are mounted upside down 🙃, but I haven’t heard of anyone other than me replacing those, so they must not be super critical to picture output. Power supply caps are easy to tell because the unit will either refuse to power on or might just not fully boot up
The Pioneer seems to have a little more flickering in the brightness. The Panasonic holds the brightness more steady.
Is that Captain Janeway at 3:00? I've never really seen her in anything prior to Voyager. That must make her Lt. Janeway at that point in time.... Lol
Yes, it is. And she is speaking with Jody Foster‘s dad from Contact.
Mrs. Columbo and also in Remo Williams.Kate was the Army officer in Remo Williams.
ES15 hands down. It cleans up the colour abberations at the top of the screen.
My preference for capture is to use a stand-alone TBC/Frame Sync, and take the output from that to a Blackmagic Teranex which is able to do some terrific processing in real time, such as saturation, black level, Gain,, hue etc, but it also has a fantastic noise reduction that operates in a recursive way that helps reduce luma and chroma noise. It can also upscale/downscale the resolution as well as the format. Example, converting NTSC to PAL etc. The the output from the Teranex is fed via SDI to a Blackmagic SDI capture card in the computer, where I can capture full bitrate 8-bit or 10-bit YUV/RGB, Motion Jpeg, Quicktime uncompressed 8-bit/10-bit YUV/RGB, Quicktime DVCPRO HD and DPX 10-bit RGB.
I've found the Teranex 2D anyway creates these odd sort of motion trails, so it's not something I'd use personally unless you've found a way to correct that?
@@orihalcon8693 To be perfectly honest, I have never noticed that with my 2D at all. If I use the noise reduction that's built into the TBC instead which uses a frame blending technique, then I get noticeable trails.
But this is not a suggestion for a good and affordable TBC. The further processing is actually less important here.
Great machine
Can the Panasonic ES10 fix tears on a video i have some tapes and theres tears on the video going constantly, the tape is not damaged. Please reply.
Would need to see an example but if it’s the wavy thing near the top left, then yes the ES15 can fix it almost certainly.
@videocaptureguide nope its not wavy its tears on any part of the video
If you can share a link to a part of the video at a RUclips link or IMGUR.com please do so we can see what it looks like exactly. Or else look at the video attached here and let me know if that is what you see? If it is, then read the comments in that thread as those experts will be of more help that me.
www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/9310-how-common-vhs.html
@videocaptureguide Hi i have since purchased a Panasonic DMR-ES10 will test it once it arrives, is the video quality better if transferring a VHS tape by SVideo. I have a JVC SVHS VCR and wondering if the video quality would be improved if connecting by SVideo, Please advise, Thanks.
How do i get the TBC on the Panasonic DMR-ES10 working have used scart no difference, do i have to use Svideo, i am using Scart, please advise.
The Line TBC in passthrough mode should work on the ES10 regardless of which port you use (Scart or S-Video). Why do you believe that the LineTBC is not having an effect?
@videocaptureguide I can still see tears on the video
I can't see the DNR menu or AV IN menu
Have a look at this discussion at DigitalFAQ from someone in the same situation. It might help. www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/9310-how-common-vhs.html
@speedyboishan87 Were you able to fix the tearing?
Do you know what optical drive/disk drive is in the Panasonic DMR-ES15? I need a replacement on mine…
I don't know. I opened it up to have a look but there are no markings that would help. I had one unit where the dvd drive didn't work. I tried a dvd cleaner disk but it didn't help. You could try opening the case and cleaning the lens manually. Since I only use the ES15 (and ES16) in passthrough mode, I don't even use the DVD recorder anyway.
I recently went on ebay and bought an ES-10 to capture VHS tapes and make the transfers enhanced. I have everything set up. Can you please tell me how to make it all work? Do i need to mess with the settings of the ES-10? I am quite impressed by your video results!!! Maybe i should have purchased an ES-15 instead. Please let me know.
The Panasonic ES10 is, according to experts, a bit better than the ES15 for nerdy reasons. Bottom line, you made a good choice. You will need the remote to access the settings on either device. Here is how to set up the ES10.
-Connect the SVHS VCR (S-Video out) to ES10 LINE 1 port
- Connect another S-Video cable from the out port to the next item in your workflow, typically your capture device
- You can also use the yellow RCA cable (aka composite cable) instead of the S-Video cable in the connection, but S-Video cables/connections are supposed to be a bit better.
- By the way, you should also pass the audio (red and white) cables to the ES10, and then out to the capture device. Although the ES10 doesn't do anything to the audio, I learned the hard way that if you connect the red and white from the VHS to capture device directly, it gets there a tiny bit faster than the video and then the audio/video is out of sync. So don't repeat my newbie mistake!
- Turn on ES10
- Press the Input Select button on the remote
- Set the input source to IN1 (to match what you did on the back)
- Don't put a DVD inside, yet.
- It is recommended to turn off Digital Noise Reduction (DNR) because most folks do that stuff in software later on. So, to turn it off press Display button on remote > Video menu > Line-in NR > Off
- Then you have to adjust the Black Level Control: press Functions button on remote > Other Functions > Setup > Video > Black Level Control.
- If you are in North America, the NTSC recommendation is Input Level: Lighter / Output Level (Composite / S-Video): Darker
That's it for the ES10. Next step is to make sure you set the Timing options correctly in VirtualDub. I have a video on the channel about that.
Thanks so much!!! I really should buy this Pioneer unit, as it appears to have a better TBC. or does it... .
@@coolcatrick3454 The Pioneer doesn't remove all the flaggy wavy video to the same high degree as the ES10 but it it almost does... and it does so with less negative effect on the brightness/contrast. So if you find one of the Pioneer units inexpensive, pick one up. It may be enough especially if your tapes isn't as bad as the one in my test.
@@videocaptureguide I bought an ES10 a bit more than a month ago, and I get the glitches and the wavy lines, tearing, etc. perhaps my tapes are so bad that I need a frame TBC, or the capacitors are bad on the ES10. I saw an ES15 at a thrift store yesterday and I may go back today and buy it, and try that out to see if that does anything with the glitches and tearing and stuff. I shoulda bought it yesterday.
@@videocaptureguide i haven't had much luck with stabilizing wavy video that has tearing issues with my ES10. Wondering if my tapes are just THAT bad, or if there is a problem with the capacitors in it. i just saw an ES15 at a thrift store yesterday. i should go buy it, to see if the issues go away.
There seems to be a bit of a loss of saturation on all the pass through examples. Could it be the capture device you are using?
So my understanding is that Japan used black IRE of 0, while USA used IRE of 7.5
If you look at the extreme left of the image, the Pioneer 640 has a bit of wobble to it still which means it isn't starting each video line exactly in the same place, which is basically the point of a line TBC. Definitely is better to use than not for the overall image improvement, but the ES15 does a little better at that specifically as there is no "left side wobble". Apparently the European models of the EZ series use a different chipset and can have the best of both worlds with an ES10/15 like effect, but also having HDMI output which can then be captured for a single analog to digital conversion in the chain. I do like the proc-amp features in the 640 though. Would be interesting to see a video on how changing the different noise reduction settings on the 640 actually affects the capture output.
Since we (and you) appreciate the objectiveness of your comparisons, you might want to look at acquiring a composite or S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope. That is easier to visualize signal noise and levels. A histogram is similar, but different. It will also show you where black levels truly are (anything below 7.5IRE will be displayed as black). The brightest scenes should not have signals that exceed 100IRE which is basically 714mv and that will tell you if the output of your different players is truly hot or not. The dangers with levels exceeding 100IRE is that your capture card may clip levels beyond that assigning all values brighter than that to 100IRE which loses dynamic range and loses data permanently. If the capture card has automatic gain control that is working appropriately, it will dynamically reduce the brightness of the entire image to keep the max white level at or below 100IRE. This can make the picture look odd however if the image brightness appears to be moving up and down to compensate for this.
Thanks for this. I didn't notice that little wobble in the Pioneer 640 that you mention. Maybe the conclusion should be that the ES10/15 is best for very difficult tapes. However, for less extreme wavy tapes, the Pioneer might be a better choice because it produces a more pleasing color than the ES10/15.
Re S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope, I feel like I don't have the expertise to understand what I would be seeing. But if I did get a used inexpensive one, which model would you recommend?
@@videocaptureguide The only series that I am aware of that have actual S-Video input/output plugs are the MagniMonitor branded ones which you will see some examples of on ebay. The catch with those is that certain models such as the MM400 have a proprietary power adapter that is hard to chase down, so you'd want a model like the MM410 that has a regular power input cable.
The absolute most budget and versitile option would be a Videotek VTM-100 if you're willing to mess with BNC adapters and 75 ohm terminators which is pretty straightforward. The VTM-100 can be had for $75 shipped or less and don't require odd power adapters, but you'll need to use S-Video to BNC cables if you want to feed it an S-Video signal - it actually requires the presence of composite at the same time as S-Video as a reference according to the manual, but that setup is pretty straightforward in the manual and all VCRs will have the simultaneous composite out to hook up. The specifications you can sometimes see online don't show S-Video (YC) as an input option, but the manual PDF online shows that it does support it an how to hook it up. It can also do waveform monitoring of component, composite video, and can also do audio level monitoring as a bonus. The beauty of that model specifically is that all of those signals can have "loopthrough" connectors so that the signal can be passed back out of the device and the signal isn't terminated at the device which some vectorscopes won't allow you to do with anything other than composite in a lot of cases. Most vectorscopes also won't let you look at component signals at all.
If you are just looking for luma levels and a general idea of chroma noise, looking at composite instead of S-Video will probably convey similar information as to whether noise is reduced or added and if luma levels are stable before and after a passthrough device in your video chain.
With both of the above, they output a composite signal to display the actual scope output, so you'll need another capture device for screen or video grabs or a composite monitor to view the output. This might be an ideal use for a DV firewire converter since we don't care about 4:1:1 colorspace when capturing a vectorscope and waveform monitor images. Any capture card will like the signal coming out of one of these monitors though since it is digitally generated and won't have timebase errors.
Yeah for the models sold in Europe and Australia the panasonic later models work similarly to the ES15, they kept using a chipset from panasonic, while on the north american models they use a completely different chipset originally developed by LSI logic (later branded magnum+ some off the shelf video decoder IC without the same tbc features). Not sure when it comes to japanese models. So afaik in north america you only really have the choice of the 2005 and 2006 models sans the es20 and I think es40 which also use a similar chipset to the later models and lack the tbc functionality (though not entirely sure about the es40) - that being afaik DMR-ES10, ES30, EH50, ES15, ES16, ES25 ES35, EH55 and EH75 and I think ES45V. The even older models may or may not work to some degree.
One issue on the european/australian models is that they have a tendency to clip whites in some cases, which is one bonus of using the pioneer/sony dvd-recorders as demonstrated in this video even though the tbc/stabilization isn't quite as good. The Euro/aus variants of those also have support for PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is very useful for digitizing NTSC tapes as a lot of pal decks can output that while the EU/Aus Panasonics only have support for standard NTSC which requries a proper multi-system or US vcr. The US variants of either don't have the ability to switch between pal and ntsc afaik.
Which European EZ model with HDMI and TBC you referring to?
For black levels, O IRE is what they use in Japan, and 7.5 IRE is what we use in America. Or used. That's a tl;dr on IRE, from what I've been able to learn.
Now that you mention it, I think I read that too and forgot. Anyway, at 8:03 I show the histogram of the same paused MiniDV tape with 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. So, I guess I could have left it at 7.5 IRE and then adjusted the other settings to arrive at the same level.
Dp you use a SSD drive on your capture computer?
No. I have a 1TB HDD for Windows XP and the very few applications. And a 2TB HDD for the captured AVI files.
An SSD would not help as these drives are fast enough. And there are some issues with SSD in Windows XP aparantly related to TRIM that make it more trouble than it's worth.
I used an SSD on my main Windows 10 computer.
What are yoir thoughts on the ES25?
I have not used it. But Sanlyn at the forums says ES10 has the best line TBC, followed by the ES15, and then the ES25. However, he says that the "ES25 tends to blow out whites to a worse degree than earlier Panasonics."
What ouput do you use on your dvd recorder?
I output via Svideo cable to my capture card. For the settings, I use Lighter-Darker. And I turn of DNR in the Display button menu area.
Pioneer DVR with HDD is great until you need to manipulate its HDD. The recording format is so encrypted, that no PC can read the HDD content. It uses some proprietary file system and codec/encryption nobody managed to break up by now. The only way to copy/move/save you HDD recordings is to either record them onto DVD or to play back them and capture via analog output.
So, if your HDD breaks, you'd most likely loose all the files on the HDD. Funny part, HDD can break if it's too full (yes, HDD may be in perfect shape, but if it gets too full and the recorder cannot write some additional files on it, it will report "HDD error" and all your videos will get lost.
If HDD actually broke or you want to recover your functional but full HDD, you'll need a special remote control available only to the authorised service centers, and, of course, they'll charge you for that. You may buy the remote via e.g., Ebay, but it will probably cost you more than a new HDD - just to push one button on that "special" remote only once! Fun fact: this "special" function will FORMAT your old HDD and ERASE all your videos, but will make it work again. The DVR would see it as a new, empty HDD. You can install the new HDD the same way.
Try PC cloning, you say? Well, it seems that Pioneer's format saves the size of the HDD, so if you use different size HDD, cloning wouldn't work. If you try the same size HDD, than you'd be cloning the error that made the original HDD unusable, so the new HDD also wouldn't work in the DVR.
Therefore, two golden rules when using your Pioneer DVR with built in HDD for storage: NEVER fill its HDD more that two-thirds of its capacity, (i.e, erase old videos regularly) and copy your favourite videos to DVDs as soon as possible!
Isobuster is able to extract video from many Pioneer DVD hard drives - have used it successfully here, it’s very straightforward and just extracts recordings as regular MPEG files.
@@MrAntbox good to know that the problem with Pioneer HDDs has finally being solved.
I have a Pioneer DVR-220 and yes, it uses a weird format for the DVD recording but I have played a DVD on my PC. Perhaps they changed the format over the years.
@@coolcatrick3454 afaik DVDs made on Pioneer DVR can be easily played on any PC or other DVD player. The difficulty is when you remove its HDD and install it into a PC. No ordinary operating system will recognise HDD's file system or if you manage to extract files from it, no ordinary video playing software will play those files.
great video! would love to pick one of these up if i can find it for cheap, my ES15 is having tray issues :(
I suppose you could use the ES15 to play a DVD to your television. But as a reminder, it is not advised to use the ES15 to record your VHS tapes. While the Line TBC is very helpful and works well, the circuitry that creates the mpeg2 files (vob files) are a weak point. So that's why the ES10/15/16 are recommended to be used as a passthrough device.
@@videocaptureguide oh im not using it to record, its just a pass through - i should have clarified that the tray is broken and goes in and out during passthrough and the little "tray closed, tray open" overlay appears on screen so sometimes randomly during an hour long capture it will open and close on its own and i have to restart so i dont have that little overlay on the screen
Oh my. That is weird problem. Maybe MacGyver it with some masking tape? Or will it still try to open and trigger the overlay?
@@choglatemilg might be fixable
@@videocaptureguide if i hold the tray in with my finger it will still try to open but then immediately close itself since it cant physically open, the display will still show "open/closed" and it will still overlay, boggles the mind a little bit haha. I have considered trying to uninstall the tray completely since I dont actually use this device for any disc operations. i want to avoid bricking it completely because it still works great for passthrough other than those weird little overlay/tray issues - probably just need to have a backup lined up in case i do end up bricking it.
I'm thinking you need to leave the Pioneer Black level centered. It makes sense that it has more contrast (compressed histogram) and has lost detail. Lost detail includes any perceived noise.
I have an ES15 and I wasn't all that impressed by it's passthrough. Perhaps I should give it another go.
What’s the name of the tv show you taped it looks like a good hospital drama
St. Elsewhere
i will take any alternative to the es-15 lol, starting to get insanely price gouged
I guess I got lucky -- I got mine off eBay for about $45. (Plus a few bucks for a compatible replacement remote off of Amazon.)
@@CantankerousDave ebay looking like around $60 + $20 shipping for tested working with no remote, so probably around $80-$100 w/ tax for a fully working ES15
I have a Sony RDR-HXD890 which are essentially clones of the Pioneer. Runs the same firmware with all those same enhancement options.
The only thing I do is I record to the unit itself then rip on the PC.
The European version does not have a Hosiden/Mini DIN S-Video input socket. For me that's a deal breaker.
@@TTVEaGMXde Just use SCART, and yes it has an S-VIDEO din, on the front under the flap.
I just use SCART for all signals, you can select composite, S-VIDEO and RGB in the Sony input menus
@@dlarge6502 Scart is NOT contact-safe, and I reject front inputs as a professional solution. I once had to invest in an Oehlbach Scart cable (looked silver, but was sold as gold) to get a secure contact in a SONY LCD TV Scart socket. Front AV has a long, unshielded ribbon cable and the risk of breaking the front socket because high-quality S-Video cables have a large bending radius in the room.
btw, it looks like you typo'd 0 as 9 every time the Pioneer model number appears in the video description.
I think I have a pretty good recorder now. I replaced the failing drive inside my Crappy Curtis unit with a computer Pionner drive 📀🤣
0:54 you saved me from cancelling you! 🇨🇦 /s
ES15 all the way, but if all I had was the Pioneer it can certainly do the job good enough.
n o i s e c a n c e l i n g 😍💅💅✨️
Pioneer/Sony wins now everybody knows. Putting aside the fact it can record onto the HDD up to 15 Mb/s mpeg2 ,files are extractable to a computer if you 're not a dummy... Enuff demonstratred
just get a proper TBC
Type and price🤣for a proper TBC available in large quantities is missing here