How was it possible that our fathers and mothers could just sit in silence and enjoy such a marvellous show, while we are condemned to trite cacophonic banalities?
The time this is from had plenty of music the older generations called trite cacophonic banalities along with stuff like this, if anything far more popular than something where people just sat quietly and watched - same as today. Silently enjoying a show is still a thing if you know where to look:) Also isn't this in the style of an Irish jig though, the point of which is completely the opposite to sitting completely still and silent? Idk about you but I started bopping my head in enjoyment at the foot tapping parts
There was always various forms of music. Music halls of the 19th century would put most nightclubs today to shame in terms of their raucousness and bawdiness.
I can't believe this is from 1964 it sounds right off Coppers and Brass. This is one of the most incredible things I've ever listened to, for how wildly experimental and out of its time this is
If that really is you, Holly, please write some of your recollections down and get them published where we can all read them. I've only discovered Davey in the last few years, and he seems to be the root of so much that I love musically. I'd love to know more about him from someone who really knew him.
Im so proud of him .he was a Glasgow boy who,s influence reverbated through guitar players and lovers of guitar the world over,may his light forever shine brightly.
@@astronomer77 Dear Astronomer, Davey was born in Leicester, England, not Glasgow, though we did play there in Guinness Hall in early 70s. Thanks to devoted friends, Davey's birth place in Leicester now sports a blue historic plaque.
Brilliant, DADGAD is the best tuning to just sit, maybe out in a field or overlooking some awesome landscape and just play. Notes flow effortlessly from your fingers once you identify key positions. I found it surprisingly and pleasantly easy to learn but can most definately respect that it is hard to master. It is a sound that hits deep inside us no matter what culture, unrefined, the music of the common people.
@@peneleapai yaa .. even my little daughter thinks that vegetables are "produced" in Grocery shop. You think DADGAD was always "there" because by the time you were born it was already available in the grocery shop!!
Have always thought (and I first encountered it dropped jawed a good few years back) that this must have been one of the most influential performances ever, at the time. Spellbinding stuff from Graham..
This clip is from 1963, five years before Jimmy Page recorded a variation on this. Jimmy called his work-up of this old standard "White Summer" (Yardbirds album "Little Games"). "Black Mountain Side" followed that on the first Led Zeppelin album. When you say you're hearing Jimmy when Davey starts strumming, it's because they were both playing in the DADGAD tuning for this song. Jimmy also used DADGAD for "Kashmir". I wish everyone would not get so caught up in who borrowed or "stole" what style from who, because what we're talking about here is music rooted in traditional English, Irish, and Scottish folk music. My hat goes off to all of the explorers.
White Summer was Davy, and Black Mountainside was Black Waterside (Bert Jansch) I loved Page when I was a teen, and I still play some zep stuff, but give me Bert and Davy any day!
Obviously all guitar players borrow and homage. Page would obviously up Carthy and Graham all the time. People want musicianship to be a battle, when it's actually a student teacher realtionship. Stop being silly, folks. Learn, use, redo, its all good.
@@thebeans6534 In this instance, it's Jimmy Page. But I think all of us who play - - - or try to play - - - borrow something from other guitarists. Yes, people want musicianship to be a battle and that is unfortunate, with so many styles and influences. I also like it when guitarists who borrow, or are influenced by other players, give the others due praise. . . .
Thanks for posting!!! I loved the Led Zeppelin version of this and had no idea of the origins. I learn something new every day whether I want to or not. I'd never heard of Davey Graham but recently have been hearing John Martyn talking about him and knew I needed to check him out. ❤☮🌎
That's nice to hear. I saw him play not long before he died and his co-ordination was off. He had some brain damage at the end, I think, or something. But after I had managed to adjust I could hear that what he was attempting - and missing by far less than I would have - was really tricky and interesting stuff. And that his playing for an audience when he was far from his best was a really touching act of generosity to loving fans. And there were many loving fans there. Probably the greatest innovator on the British folk scene.
Just discovered the date of this: October 1963. Any guitarists new to this: he's tuned to DADGAD, but (in this recording) 3 half-steps down: i.e., B F# B E F# B. Capo on 2 puts him in C#/Db.
If I could keep giving this status a "Thumbs Up" until my index finger bled, I would. Ever since I first heard this recording about 4 years ago, every now and then I'd try to get my guitar to sound like this, but couldn't, so I contented myself to play it in standard DADGAD. Thanks a million!
I was watching the programme on Sky Arts about Led Zeppelin and someone mentioned Davy Graham as an influence. I also knew nothing about him. I like the way he does a lot of up strums.
Absolute genius; literally one of the only people along with Jansch, Carthy, and Renborn trying to gestate a resurgence of a lost musical language of a people from within the empire that destroyed that language. Its bigger than music.
Davie Graham: il y a une connection entre la music oriental et la folk irlandaise ....il voyage en Turquie Tunisie, Maroc Inde Grèce, joue du Sarod indien, Oud oriental, apprend à parlé turque arabe, français grècque gaélic , étudie les modes afghan irakien ... "there is a connection between oriental and irish folk music" played idian sarod, arabic oud, travelled to Turkey, Greec India Maroco, Tunisia, ... studied afghan , iraki muscial modes he spoke excellent French and studied Arabic, Turkish, Greek and Gaelic),
Oh, didn't you know that Jimmy Page NEVER heard of Davey Graham...or Jake Holmes....or Randy California ? He never saw any of them perform...he never heard their recordings...and certainly doesn't know how their albums got into his record collection!
Davy Graham invented this style and arraingement of this song making it an instrumental. It is almost always sung often without any instrument as a true Ballad. He put it in DADGAD and added signature licks which Jimmy Page copied after hearing in Bert Janch's playing. Bert Janch was directly taught/influenced by the slightly older Graham.
A very interesting premise, but She Moved through the Fair was less than 50 years old when Davey Graham played this and we know that the most popular form of Irish folk music had died out in the 17th century when new instruments such as the violin and different pipes replaced the harp and drum.
@@theherbpuffer Yeah shortly after this post I remember doing a ridiculous amount of research. In conclusion, Led Zeppelin had deeper pockets than everyone that Page plagiarized. Led Zeppelin was both brilliant at composing music as well as stealing it lol.
@@mattstephens6137 They weren't better at "composing", they were better at zeroing in on a market that is highly lucrative, which is hard bluesy rock, and giving it the faintest of folk tinges at times. They're a more marketable band. The end.
Fascinating breakdown of some key points in this thread! Although it's from 2 years ago, I want to thank you for posting and shedding additional light and nuance on these topics.
this is page's "white summer.'..rr (before page's incantation of the piece. if you hear it, it was a complete rip off, and i am a big LZ fan. but credit goes where it's due)...rr
That's true, but the problem with these comparison's is that it's assumed that Graham was the composer of it, when in almost all cases, the 'original' artist also got it from someone else, and that person got it from somewhere else, etc, etc. They change things a tad and call it their own.
@@redpine8665 The problem is Davy Graham never "called it his own." It was always acknowledged that it was his arrangement of a traditional Irish folk tune. Jimmy Page played this same traditional folk tune, stole Graham's arrangement of it, and changed the name to White Summer and gave himself writing credit. This is the difference between Jimmy Page and the other folk artists- they never claim it as their own. Page did. He did the exact same thing with Bert Jansch's guitar arrangement of another traditional tune, Black Waterside. Page claimed composition and ownership of that too. Not very cool.
@@redpine8665 Right, Jimmy Page's version of WS is more "polished" than Graham's version that's all. I used to play this song when I played classical guitar;- loved this piece 'cause of it's almost hypnotic quality. Absolute brilliant piece. Also a touch of Hindu, middle eastern sonds as well here. Nonetheless, the foundation to WS is evident here...
Very nice. But I have to laugh if anybody thinks early European composers were unaware of music from outside Europe. As if Europe were cut off completely. A lute player, or any high level player, obviously experimented in the old days too. It's just that what was considered in good taste was European classical music, & as it's the most advanced music it's clear why a great musician of the past would have pushed deeper into it. Blue notes & raga drone ideas are all well & fine used in the appropriate contexts, but they are often not used in the right contexts.
Page was a prolific musical snitch, and obviously snitched this, but his "White Summer" on "Little Games" blows this and Jansch's versions away for tone and fire. Wish he had played it or Black Mountain Side when I saw Zep athe Laurel Pop Fest in July 69.
The main argument of Page's plagiarism is not that he copied Graham (because everyone do in music), but that Graham pioneered this groundbreaking style and he died penniless, unknown, and prematurely in 2008 while Page is still churning millions without even acknowledging him. Justice!
plankcaller largely, but page did add his own twist too it, and graham did before him... page lists this song as a song that influenced him, he’s not exactly hiding it. Traditional music tends to be played similarly, but with slight variations to allow for for individual creativity, which is what both artists did...
except now they ( zep) are developing a history of ripping off songwriters , if it were on incident I would say , yeah , howevevr .alanwalkerart.com/wp/?tag=bert-jansch .....and also why not just give credit where credit is due , might hve something to do with their deal with the devil ! @@seamushawks2190
regardless how old the tune or its origins, this performance is superkiller, & is obviously the arrangement Page copied, but his genius on White Summer was in adding that chilling flute solo
"Page ripped this off" is often said of much of his work. And I do LOVE Graham here. But if one goes back to even classical music, one will immeiately find many pieces that are titled "Variations on a theme by Bach" by Beethoven (I think I just made THAT one up). But my point is, NOTHING is "new" in an art form that has been around for hundreds of years. Even the undisputed greatest artist of the human race; Shakespeare, stole many themes from the Greeks. A ghost is constantly appearing in Shakespear's plays as one often did in many greek playrights work. Does that mean Shakespeare completely ripped them off?. It is hard to separate one's style and play from what the Italians refer to as "Emmulatio": to desire to be similar or like someone in the spirit of respect. And I think Page does do this. Page was a session musician exposed to many many many differnet styles of play and sounds. How one can "step out" of the musical experiences that makes one who they are, let alone what they love, is beyond me. But it seems for many, they believe it's possible and that Page-of all artists-should have been the one and the only one culpible for it and capable to do it. I'd point my finger at Shakespeare first.
michael allen It’s Canon in D by Pachelbel that I think you’re referring to. Loads of songs took basically that chord progression. A few being: Whatever, and Don’t look back in anger by Oasis, Pictures of Lily, the who Changes; Bowie All the young Dudes; Mott the Hoople/Bowie Go West Basket case Green Day I should be so lucky: Kylie Minogue Put on Canon in D and you can basically sing the choruses to these songs over it. Fun game.
@@nick260682 Agreed!. A tune so loved by many that it has become part of the listener's own self-expression. Very hard to draw a line where influence ends and plagerism begins. I wrote a Master's in Physiology. My professor had many papers on the subject I covered. I read his work so much and spoke so often of it, it was hard to tell where my ideas began and his ended and vice versa. And to "mimick" in a spirit of respect: "emulatio" as the Italian would say....well, you've given the prior artist the greatest compliment. Prince usually hated someone playing his music-especially if it was in a rap "song". Bob Dylan has never voiced anything but happiness and a feeling of respect from someone who sings and/or plays his lyrics/songs. When asked Dylan was quite pleased with Hendrix doing All Along The Watch Tower.
Proof denied. And as a Zepper, I can tell you that fully 1/3 of their published tunes were nicked from somebody else (P&P will confirm this). Love this tune, though, & well done!
They have less than 15 songs out of about 96 that were nicked from others. Most of those involve very small lyrical ‘theft’. There’s only 2 (arguably 3) zep songs that have any theft in terms of the instrumentals themselves
Blaine went on the wiki page. Technically there are 20 songs (unless you count stairway, but as a musician I cannot say there is much similarity, for there isn’t), and 5 of them have instrumental theft (dazed and confused with the bassline/riff, bron yr aur stomp, black mountainside, gallows pole and I guess you could say moby dick as well, as the main riff does take similar intervals from the song is stole from, for half of the riff). This means that, technically, 75% of Zep’s theft is entirely related to the lyrics.
Oriental is used correctly here as it is refering to certain scales of music labeled as so in Classical music. Meaning 'Outside' western traditional scaler. Occidental means 'Inside'. The Celts started off in modern day India and Pakistan and brought their scales and the bagpipe to places in Europe including Brittany and Ireland.
@@jawadkazmi8856. “Most of the time”?? Hahaha! What a load of bollox! I’ve heard that lazy bullsh*t so many times it’s just boring now. And it’s always repeated by those who have no clue about how music evolves, and what it takes to push boundaries.
@@terrypussypoweroh come down...pushing boundaries lol. Sweet sanctimony! Zepp is a blues rock band, come down off the high horse Mr boundary pusher 😂
How was it possible that our fathers and mothers could just sit in silence and enjoy such a marvellous show, while we are condemned to trite cacophonic banalities?
Young people today have a complete blissless ignorance of the beauty of the art and music of the past
The time this is from had plenty of music the older generations called trite cacophonic banalities along with stuff like this, if anything far more popular than something where people just sat quietly and watched - same as today. Silently enjoying a show is still a thing if you know where to look:)
Also isn't this in the style of an Irish jig though, the point of which is completely the opposite to sitting completely still and silent? Idk about you but I started bopping my head in enjoyment at the foot tapping parts
I saw Pierre BenSusan in concert a couple of weeks ago. The audience sat in silence. No cacophonic banalities were to be heard.
INDEED!!!!!!
There was always various forms of music. Music halls of the 19th century would put most nightclubs today to shame in terms of their raucousness and bawdiness.
There are similarities in folk music all over the world! Lots of Indian and Irish similarities too. Because it all comes from the human heart.
And he was half Scottish!!!
Light years ahead of his time; he played just about every style there was.
JP aside, this is some of the most profound and surreal guitar-playing I've ever heard.
I can't believe this is from 1964 it sounds right off Coppers and Brass. This is one of the most incredible things I've ever listened to, for how wildly experimental and out of its time this is
He is still ahead of his time now!
Brilliant guitarist. He could play anything in any style, for example Beethoven in jazz style. He and Bert Jansch the two greatest ever. RIP both.
I'd like to add John Renbourn to your list
Yes, Bert was astounding - I saw him 3 times..... Legend!!!!
@@papatango2453 A proper legend. I think I have everything he put out on vinyl and CD (though you can never be sure).
Celebrating 11/26, Davey's Earth Birthday, I bless and remember him. Those days were some of the best of my life. Thank you, darling.
If that really is you, Holly, please write some of your recollections down and get them published where we can all read them. I've only discovered Davey in the last few years, and he seems to be the root of so much that I love musically. I'd love to know more about him from someone who really knew him.
Amazing days for sure x such inspirational playing
Im so proud of him .he was a Glasgow boy who,s influence reverbated through guitar players and lovers of guitar the world over,may his light forever shine brightly.
@@astronomer77 Dear Astronomer, Davey was born in Leicester, England, not Glasgow, though we did play there in Guinness Hall in early 70s. Thanks to devoted friends, Davey's birth place in Leicester now sports a blue historic plaque.
Brilliant, DADGAD is the best tuning to just sit, maybe out in a field or overlooking some awesome landscape and just play.
Notes flow effortlessly from your fingers once you identify key positions. I found it surprisingly and pleasantly easy to learn but can most definately respect that it is hard to master. It is a sound that hits deep inside us no matter what culture, unrefined, the music of the common people.
One of the absolute best guitar players to ever walk the earth. God tier. Most people dont even realize he pioneered DADGAD tuning.
Super duper.cleavoer.what else to say.love the song but he ain't ruined hes only added to it.
Everybody watching this video knows about Davy Graham being the pioneer of DADGAD
@Zach
*You're not for real are ya?!!!! DADGAD PIONEER????*
just always thought DADGAD was "there" like ..
@@koustavsen5672 lol
Well as u can see from my reply to @Zach, not *EVERYONE*
@@peneleapai yaa .. even my little daughter thinks that vegetables are "produced" in Grocery shop. You think DADGAD was always "there" because by the time you were born it was already available in the grocery shop!!
Have always thought (and I first encountered it dropped jawed a good few years back) that this must have been one of the most influential performances ever, at the time. Spellbinding stuff from Graham..
This clip is from 1963, five years before Jimmy Page recorded a variation on this. Jimmy called his work-up of this old standard "White Summer" (Yardbirds album "Little Games"). "Black Mountain Side" followed that on the first Led Zeppelin album. When you say you're hearing Jimmy when Davey starts strumming, it's because they were both playing in the DADGAD tuning for this song. Jimmy also used DADGAD for "Kashmir".
I wish everyone would not get so caught up in who borrowed or "stole" what style from who, because what we're talking about here is music rooted in traditional English, Irish, and Scottish folk music. My hat goes off to all of the explorers.
White Summer was Davy, and Black Mountainside was Black Waterside (Bert Jansch) I loved Page when I was a teen, and I still play some zep stuff, but give me Bert and Davy any day!
@@sunkintree the DAD!?
Thank you for being one of the few here with sense
Obviously all guitar players borrow and homage. Page would obviously up Carthy and Graham all the time. People want musicianship to be a battle, when it's actually a student teacher realtionship.
Stop being silly, folks. Learn, use, redo, its all good.
@@thebeans6534 In this instance, it's Jimmy Page. But I think all of us who play - - - or try to play - - - borrow something from other guitarists. Yes, people want musicianship to be a battle and that is unfortunate, with so many styles and influences. I also like it when guitarists who borrow, or are influenced by other players, give the others due praise. . . .
I wish I had been around as a young adult in the 50s and not had to wait 40 years to hear this!
You got that much longer to make it hit, baby
Thanks for posting!!! I loved the Led Zeppelin version of this and had no idea of the origins. I learn something new every day whether I want to or not. I'd never heard of Davey Graham but recently have been hearing John Martyn talking about him and knew I needed to check him out. ❤☮🌎
I always thought that it was an English song. I met him once. He did a tremendous amount of good work for mental health charities.
That's nice to hear.
I saw him play not long before he died and his co-ordination was off. He had some brain damage at the end, I think, or something. But after I had managed to adjust I could hear that what he was attempting - and missing by far less than I would have - was really tricky and interesting stuff. And that his playing for an audience when he was far from his best was a really touching act of generosity to loving fans. And there were many loving fans there.
Probably the greatest innovator on the British folk scene.
Just discovered the date of this: October 1963. Any guitarists new to this: he's tuned to DADGAD, but (in this recording) 3 half-steps down: i.e., B F# B E F# B. Capo on 2 puts him in C#/Db.
If I could keep giving this status a "Thumbs Up" until my index finger bled, I would. Ever since I first heard this recording about 4 years ago, every now and then I'd try to get my guitar to sound like this, but couldn't, so I contented myself to play it in standard DADGAD. Thanks a million!
thank you Jon!
nice. thanks
Where is the capo in this song?
@@diegoxtercobain On the guitar!
So convinced of his theory about the connection of Orient and Irish folk music that even grow a moustache like Fu Manchu
Jimmy Page borrowed this tune for "White Summer". God Blessed the lads Davey and Jimmy. Shine On Crazy Diamond.
Outstanding! ❤
that gents, is the definition of nailing it
i just discovered him. one hell of an acoustic guitarist...rr
In all my time through many walks of musical art i have just today found davey graham!
I was watching the programme on Sky Arts about Led Zeppelin and someone mentioned Davy Graham as an influence. I also knew nothing about him. I like the way he does a lot of up strums.
Absolute genius; literally one of the only people along with Jansch, Carthy, and Renborn trying to gestate a resurgence of a lost musical language of a people from within the empire that destroyed that language. Its bigger than music.
Neil Young I believe described him as the Jimi Hendrix of the accostic,a very fitting tribute
I think NY described Bert Jansch as the hendrix of acoustic guitar, either way, both amazing.
03:19 - 03:21 *those harmonics*
Perfect tasty end to SOME tune!
Jugglin gerbils! The guy is special
Fantastic
❤❤❤❤❤
that shit he busts into 1:49 is fuckin Godly
0:40 here you can hear the riff in Over the Hills and Far away
Davie Graham: il y a une connection entre la music oriental et la folk irlandaise ....il voyage en Turquie Tunisie, Maroc Inde Grèce, joue du Sarod indien, Oud oriental, apprend à parlé turque arabe, français grècque gaélic , étudie les modes afghan irakien ... "there is a connection between oriental and irish folk music" played idian sarod, arabic oud, travelled to Turkey, Greec India Maroco, Tunisia, ... studied afghan , iraki muscial modes he spoke excellent French and studied Arabic, Turkish, Greek and Gaelic),
The theory is the sea, music, culture, love and hope travels.......peace to you all.
Sounds a bit like he's about to go into Over the Hills and Far Away in the intro
Oh, didn't you know that Jimmy Page NEVER heard of Davey Graham...or Jake Holmes....or Randy California ? He never saw any of them perform...he never heard their recordings...and certainly doesn't know how their albums got into his record collection!
Yes it's a bit of a let down. Naughty Jimmy. SMH
.........yeshow didthat happen
In their documentary about music that inspired them, Davy Graham and this song are mentioned- i don't think they're hiding it.
White Summer was not on any Zep album tho. Are they not allowed to cover it live?
@@Brmlk White Summer is on the last Yardbirds album, Little Games, played by Page. Zep was originally the New Yardbirds.
Well that was pretty darn awesome.
Wow amazing guitarists
Oh yeah, the boy can play!
One of the best videos on youtube imo! Along with fred mcdowells version of going down to the river
Out of all the places I thought I’d ever see a comment like this, this would have been the last. Agreed.
Over the hills and faraway came the sound that wired up the ears of a young lad called Jimmy.
fantastic!
where these guys pluck chords and harmonies from amazes me..
YOOOUUURRR TIME IS GONNAAAA COOOOMEEEE
astounding.
absolutely crushing holy fuck
Davy Graham invented this style and arraingement of this song making it an instrumental. It is almost always sung often without any instrument as a true Ballad. He put it in DADGAD and added signature licks which Jimmy Page copied after hearing in Bert Janch's playing. Bert Janch was directly taught/influenced by the slightly older Graham.
A very interesting premise, but She Moved through the Fair was less than 50 years old when Davey Graham played this and we know that the most popular form of Irish folk music had died out in the 17th century when new instruments such as the violin and different pipes replaced the harp and drum.
I seriously doubt that considering unaccompanied singing is the preeminent of folk music. I think Davy probably learned it off a record though
This sounds eerily similar to Page's White Summer. I know this because I've heard it 9,000 times...
Not surprised as their known to be thieves. Rory Gallagher was a big fan of this guy
@@theherbpuffer Yeah shortly after this post I remember doing a ridiculous amount of research. In conclusion, Led Zeppelin had deeper pockets than everyone that Page plagiarized. Led Zeppelin was both brilliant at composing music as well as stealing it lol.
@@mattstephens6137 They weren't better at "composing", they were better at zeroing in on a market that is highly lucrative, which is hard bluesy rock, and giving it the faintest of folk tinges at times. They're a more marketable band. The end.
The best of the best
Très beau.
Mesmerizing
Genius. Just found this.
one love
Wow that place he goes to at around 1.45...is astounding!!...its led zep!
DADGAD *and* a capo on the 1st fret? That’s deeeeeep.
I think Over the Hills and Far Away should get honorable mention...
Got his same shoes although I can't play as good as him :)
Interesting thread but, apart from some flip asides, it has 3 strands:
1) Copyright It's a law: most post-ers here are confusing it with the more recent concept of the Moral Right of the author [designed to stop folks using others' creative work in ways that disparage the original: see the data page of any book now published]. Copyright allows someone to profit from "intellectual property", even if it isn't theirs, if they're first in with the claim [akin to claiming land for the country you've come from: usually, it was peopled by someone else, and to modern thought, would have 'belonged' to them]. US ©-law was, and I suspect still is, different from UK/European [Martin Carthy still smarts from Paul Simon's copyrighting the chords from Scarborough Fair which, in the spirit of sharing 'folk' music, he taught PS [I gather]; [happy to be corrected but] I THINK that means that MC can't record or publicly play it himself, w/o paying PS royalties. Perfectly legal, tho' it's certainly true NOW, and since some recent ©-law changes, that on the UK side of The Pond, PS would not have been able to do that]. So you're arguing the toss over whether a rock musician, seeking to make a good living from their creativity, and before current ©-law was refined, should or shouldn't use that law to make money from what they do. Sharing profits with your 'source' might have been the "decent thing to do" - but, strictly, it's the LAW that needs tweaking: discuss.
2) She Moved Through The Fair - folk song or no. It was collected in Donegal around 1903 by a team that included the Belfast musicologist Herbert Hughes. He collected traditional airs and transcribed folk songs in North Donegal [the far northwest of Ireland, the area west of "Northern Ireland"] in August 1903 with his brother Fred, the extraordinary F.J. Bigger, and John Campbell. "Dedicated to seeking out and recording such ancient melodies as were yet to be found in the remoter glens and valleys of Ulster, he produced in 1904 Songs of Uladh (ancient name for Ulster) with Joseph Campbell, illustrated by Joseph's brother John Campbell and paid for by Bigger, who freely spent his own money, time and inexhaustible energy in supporting and publicising the creative talents and endeavours of others involved in the Irish Cultural Revival". Bigger was an Anglican [= on the Brit. side of the Irish 'question'] who lived on Belfast's Antrim Road.
The SONG we know was by an established poet [Padraig Colum], and first published as 3 verses by Hughes in 1909, where it states that PC adapted the words "from an old ballad" [perhaps based on what the collectors were told by their singing source, and maybe not known as SMTTF]. As, at that time, it was almost unknown, thus not 'popular', there'd have been no financial point in spinning that story [tho' PC is later reported [or mis-reported?] as having said he wrote all four verses; in fact, he later wrote what is the third in most versions, feeling that it needed something between the existing verses 2 & 3]. The TUNE must be as transcribed by Hughes, so it's certainly uncredited, thus a 'folk' tune by most definitions.
3) Oriental-influence theory Only one person (Jay Gillan, in a hidden reply to Jon Riley [3 comments from the top, on my screen]) has pointed out that "The Orient" / "Oriental" means more than the cultures around Fu Manchu, et al. It seems it's this Arabic music that DG was trying to emulate. The term, originally invented by, and centred on, The British Empire and Europe, bizarrely covers an almighty stretch of the globe from SOUTH WEST of some of these hubs, to Japan, despite "Oriental" meaning East! The Brits used the term "The Near East" [a usage now lost, but to distinguish the Middle and Far East] to describe the exotic nature of the whole of the north and north-west African coast - a stone's throw, travel-wise, compared to what we NOW think of as "The Orient", and making far more sense of other comments about people travelling, and bringing influences from, far from these shores. It's conceivable that the terminology was still current during DG's upbringing, thus his wording about "the music of the Orient" [or however exactly he put it] being Arabic could have made perfect sense to him. And, don't forget, interchange BETWEEN these various parts of "The Orient" may have been happening for eons before any major cross-pollination with Europe, so the first e.g. Indian, or Chinese, sounds Europeans heard MAY have stemmed from Arabic-filtered versions almost on their doorstep. DG def. has a point: in the 90s, my folk-club [English south coast] booked a local fusion band of South Asian and Brit. musicians, who were picking out old English and Indian / Pakistani folksongs and interweaving the verses. The sonic parallels: modal tunes, which Trad. European folk abounds in, non-classical cadences, etc. were astonishingly close. I doubt this was merely The Empire having imposed its folksong on those they colonized and then being brought 'home': folksong, generically, was probably looked down on by the upper-echelon colonizers.
Fascinating breakdown of some key points in this thread! Although it's from 2 years ago, I want to thank you for posting and shedding additional light and nuance on these topics.
this is page's "white summer.'..rr (before page's incantation of the piece. if you hear it, it was a complete rip off, and i am a big LZ fan. but credit goes where it's due)...rr
That's true, but the problem with these comparison's is that it's assumed that Graham was the composer of it, when in almost all cases, the 'original' artist also got it from someone else, and that person got it from somewhere else, etc, etc. They change things a tad and call it their own.
@@redpine8665 The problem is Davy Graham never "called it his own." It was always acknowledged that it was his arrangement of a traditional Irish folk tune. Jimmy Page played this same traditional folk tune, stole Graham's arrangement of it, and changed the name to White Summer and gave himself writing credit. This is the difference between Jimmy Page and the other folk artists- they never claim it as their own. Page did. He did the exact same thing with Bert Jansch's guitar arrangement of another traditional tune, Black Waterside. Page claimed composition and ownership of that too. Not very cool.
@@redpine8665 Right, Jimmy Page's version of WS is more "polished" than Graham's version that's all. I used to play this song when I played classical guitar;- loved this piece 'cause of it's almost hypnotic quality. Absolute brilliant piece. Also a touch of Hindu, middle eastern sonds as well here. Nonetheless, the foundation to WS is evident here...
Jimmy was probly on so many drugs he didn't even remember where he got it from
I was waiting for him to break out singing "hey lady, you got the love I need" but remembered those lyrics weren't written yet.
Hey this is Jimmy Page White Summer!
""She Moved Through The Fair" - Davey Graham"
- Jimmy Page
I can hear Nick Drake in this .. Graham was a clear influence to him
Did anyone else's eyes start to get moist, or am I a bit emotional?
my eyes aren't moist, but something else is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It is a beautiful instrumental and it will have that effect on you.
can anybody send me the tabs? for love of god
If you like this listen to Sandy Bull
👍🧡
Sounds like he's playing through a Magnatone lol
Needs more cow bell in performance.
What was the tuning he used here?
Jimmy Page: "I'll nick that for Over the Hill and Far Away"
Very nice.
But I have to laugh if anybody thinks early European composers were unaware of music from outside Europe. As if Europe were cut off completely. A lute player, or any high level player, obviously experimented in the old days too. It's just that what was considered in good taste was European classical music, & as it's the most advanced music it's clear why a great musician of the past would have pushed deeper into it.
Blue notes & raga drone ideas are all well & fine used in the appropriate contexts, but they are often not used in the right contexts.
Come for the music, stay for the mustache.
He looks like some musician version of Doctor Strange
Page was a prolific musical snitch, and obviously snitched this, but his "White Summer" on "Little Games" blows this and Jansch's versions away for tone and fire. Wish he had played it or Black Mountain Side when I saw Zep athe Laurel Pop Fest in July 69.
Completely shocked...
The main argument of Page's plagiarism is not that he copied Graham (because everyone do in music), but that Graham pioneered this groundbreaking style and he died penniless, unknown, and prematurely in 2008 while Page is still churning millions without even acknowledging him. Justice!
Merely one casualty in jimmy pages thievings...
All three or so of them
Later became Black Waterside by Bert Jansch, then adopted by Jimmy Page as Black Mountainside
Sounds like this tune by MC Hammer... It's at the tip of my tongue ...hm, can't remember the name.
omg does anyone have the tabs? pleaseee
C'MON
Jimmys rage
First chord all I heard was Jimmy Page
This is the guy Jimmy Page stole from, correct
I can hear were Jimmy Page got some of his ideas from
you do need a bit of brown to get there though.
Neither Graham or Page wrote the song. It's an Irish folk song that predates both. Regardless, they're both amazing musicians.
Yep tell wrm100.
But the arrangement was Graham's.
plankcaller largely, but page did add his own twist too it, and graham did before him... page lists this song as a song that influenced him, he’s not exactly hiding it. Traditional music tends to be played similarly, but with slight variations to allow for for individual creativity, which is what both artists did...
except now they ( zep) are developing a history of ripping off songwriters , if it were on incident I would say , yeah , howevevr .alanwalkerart.com/wp/?tag=bert-jansch .....and also why not just give credit where credit is due , might hve something to do with their deal with the devil ! @@seamushawks2190
Correct, listen to this then listen to Belfast Child by Simple Minds ... notice anything ....
no way Jimmy didnt pinch BMS from this guy...
It's not a theory, it's a fact!
How hot do ya like yer guitar playing?
regardless how old the tune or its origins, this performance is superkiller, & is obviously the arrangement Page copied, but his genius on White Summer was in adding that chilling flute solo
looks like an ancient Celt ...mustache and all ...people who came from the steppes of Asia
"Page ripped this off" is often said of much of his work. And I do LOVE Graham here.
But if one goes back to even classical music, one will immeiately find many pieces that are titled "Variations on a theme by Bach" by Beethoven (I think I just made THAT one up). But my point is, NOTHING is "new" in an art form that has been around for hundreds of years.
Even the undisputed greatest artist of the human race; Shakespeare, stole many themes from the Greeks. A ghost is constantly appearing in Shakespear's plays as one often did in many greek playrights work. Does that mean Shakespeare completely ripped them off?.
It is hard to separate one's style and play from what the Italians refer to as "Emmulatio": to desire to be similar or like someone in the spirit of respect. And I think Page does do this. Page was a session musician exposed to many many many differnet styles of play and sounds. How one can "step out" of the musical experiences that makes one who they are, let alone what they love, is beyond me.
But it seems for many, they believe it's possible and that Page-of all artists-should have been the one and the only one culpible for it and capable to do it.
I'd point my finger at Shakespeare first.
michael allen
It’s Canon in D by Pachelbel that I think you’re referring to. Loads of songs took basically that chord progression. A few being:
Whatever, and Don’t look back in anger by Oasis,
Pictures of Lily, the who
Changes; Bowie
All the young Dudes; Mott the Hoople/Bowie
Go West
Basket case Green Day
I should be so lucky: Kylie Minogue
Put on Canon in D and you can basically sing the choruses to these songs over it. Fun game.
@@nick260682 Agreed!. A tune so loved by many that it has become part of the listener's own self-expression.
Very hard to draw a line where influence ends and plagerism begins.
I wrote a Master's in Physiology. My professor had many papers on the subject I covered. I read his work so much and spoke so often of it, it was hard to tell where my ideas began and his ended and vice versa. And to "mimick" in a spirit of respect: "emulatio" as the Italian would say....well, you've given the prior artist the greatest compliment.
Prince usually hated someone playing his music-especially if it was in a rap "song".
Bob Dylan has never voiced anything but happiness and a feeling of respect from someone who sings and/or plays his lyrics/songs.
When asked Dylan was quite pleased with Hendrix doing All Along The Watch Tower.
Page stole it. Quit your bs
@@sunkintree Along with many other pieces of music.
The g.o.a.t
Pagey
black keys East...white keys West.
Did any Asians agree with Davey's theory?
And on Led Zep I, it states that Black Mountain Side is written by Page. A bit off there.
Should be more widely celebrated - very influential musician
This is indeed connected to Indian raags
La faute a ...
Pourquoi le gouvernement continue d'en vendre alors..
Proof denied. And as a Zepper, I can tell you that fully 1/3 of their published tunes were nicked from somebody else (P&P will confirm this). Love this tune, though, & well done!
They have less than 15 songs out of about 96 that were nicked from others. Most of those involve very small lyrical ‘theft’. There’s only 2 (arguably 3) zep songs that have any theft in terms of the instrumentals themselves
@@ayhamshaheed7740 : My count was based on a list of published songs in Wiki-p that credited the writers. I'll post a link if I don't forget..
Blaine went on the wiki page. Technically there are 20 songs (unless you count stairway, but as a musician I cannot say there is much similarity, for there isn’t), and 5 of them have instrumental theft (dazed and confused with the bassline/riff, bron yr aur stomp, black mountainside, gallows pole and I guess you could say moby dick as well, as the main riff does take similar intervals from the song is stole from, for half of the riff). This means that, technically, 75% of Zep’s theft is entirely related to the lyrics.
"Oriental music"
I find it more like Indian/Hindu music, am I wrong in assuming this?
Oriental is used correctly here as it is refering to certain scales of music labeled as so in Classical music. Meaning 'Outside' western traditional scaler. Occidental means 'Inside'. The Celts started off in modern day India and Pakistan and brought their scales and the bagpipe to places in Europe including Brittany and Ireland.
This is great! It’s really neat how Page wrote the same song 5 years later. Cool!
Page ripted him off. As page did most of the time he was guitarist in Z-led
@@jawadkazmi8856. “Most of the time”?? Hahaha! What a load of bollox! I’ve heard that lazy bullsh*t so many times it’s just boring now. And it’s always repeated by those who have no clue about how music evolves, and what it takes to push boundaries.
@@terrypussypoweroh come down...pushing boundaries lol. Sweet sanctimony! Zepp is a blues rock band, come down off the high horse Mr boundary pusher 😂
it's out of sound synchronicity