Good evening, fantastic show, guys. Just started listening. I should be going to bed. I'm off to Great Central tomorrow. . I've been listening on podbeam. . I'm a rail enthusiast 30 years before travelling around the UK. Best railway in the world. . Just listened to your 1st episode 2nd episode. What I like about that. So, so true 100% Public hate the HS2 Because the government gave all the information completely wrong. Turned something negative into something that could be a vital part of the infrastructure. And all the other positive add-ons. . Just started Episode 3 Got to the upgrade of the west coast main line. I'm from Rugby on of the bottle necks. Peter waterman did a talk at Leamington Spa. Done all the verbal chat all the Diagrams. . I remember standing on a new platform 1 at Rugby. One network rail employee had to keep an eye on the points, which hopefully the new box Could change the points accordingly Birmingham New Street Or North of England. It was seriously one pair of points. Somewhere between 2002 and 2005, I found that quite amusing. . So love your program. Keep it up lads
Great discussion. It always seems to me that the WCML is considered a poor cousin of the ECML. It strikes me as odd that if Manchester-London route is the most important revenue flow as you say, then why does the Government disregard it so much? Maybe I’m not being fair but that’s how I feel with the cancellation of the HS2 phase 2 Love hearing your anecdotes! (No need to ask me what my favourite railway is - Ffestiniog obviously!)
Tamworth losing service? MK only getting 2 stoppers an hour? Just give a thought to Watford Junction, which, before the Virgin High Frequency changes, used to get stops hourly or alternate hourly to all destinations, but after VHF just got 1 hourly to Birmingham. Any other destinations require a change at MK.
Special rail trip, this was first mentioned in a pub, but still became reality. The trip started in Stafford early catching the Avanti to Glasgow 1st class, then the Scotrail to Edinburgh. We then boarded the LNER to King's Cross again 1st class before walking to Euston and returning to Stafford, again Avanti 1st class. A quite exhausting day but an experience I will remember.
Wow - that is an epic journey. Never done that but can imagine is indeed quite exhausting. I did once do a Class 40 railtour that involved Birmingham - Mossend - Inverness - then the Dufftown / Burghead branches - Inverness - Aberdeen - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Setlle & Carlisle to Hellifield - Blackburn. It was done between Friday night and Sunday afternoon. Exhausted at the end but great fun! Those were the days!
As a former member of WCRM project team, it was fascinating to listen to Richard's stories about that and the Pendolino. Perhaps he could enlighten the audience in a future issue about the belated need for 25 kV Harmonic Dampers on the Overhead Line supply and the frantic installation programme necessary because they were omitted from the trains? Good stuff guys 👍
A really interesting point. When was that done? As in the frantic installation programme? Presumably when the trains were being brought into service? My memory not great on that because I was mainly involved with procurement and design rather than commissioning. However, one thing worth remembering is that in PUG2, there is a Section / Schedule called the TTIS or Track Train Interface Specification. That was where we as Virgin said to Railtrack - you must tell us everything about the infrastructure that is relevant to the design of the train. If you want to 'constrain' us in designing the train, here's where to write it because other than the stuff that is in the TTIS, we can do whatever we need to (subject of course to getting Route Acceptance / type approval for which there was a separate contract called VRAC - Vehicle and Route Acceptance Contract which ironically Tom Winsor and I wrote!) I don't recall Harmonic dampers being in the TTIS because if they had been, we would have put them in Schedule 5 (the design spec / parameters) in the contract with Alstom / Fiat. But I shall now go and dig out my copy of PUG2 and have a jolly good look. Thanks for the question! Cheers. Richard
Early 2000’s, probably 2001/2. I seem to recall it was to do with the potential harmonics generated by the Pendolino drives that could be imposed on the OHL supply hence a Safety Case requirement to mitigate such. I believe there was no room to add a device to the train so Railtrack (via the OLE Alliance) embarked on a project to add Harmonic Dampers to each and every electrical section on the routes cleared for Pendo operation. The advent of Auto-Transformer operation negated the need for damping but (I may be wrong here) I think it still remains in the Pendo safety case to this day!
Tremendous stuff gents, I enjoyed this episode as much as the first one. The fascinating insights and anecdotes really help to bring the discussion to life, too! 👍
Another great discussion. Shocking really how badly setup railtrack were to be in charge of infrastructure. Luckily I got my shares refunded! Loved the cab ride story. Running a mk3 coach to test clearances is what I do when testing my model railway! After hearing all the upgrade woes HS2 needs to keep going. You are building a library to match classic album documentaries. There have been good TV on St Pancras and crossrail, I wonder if an HS2 one is being made?
I was fortunate my father worked on the railway, so I had free travel. . Travel Dawlish seawall But it's impossible. Everywhere is beautiful. Whitby & Yorkshire Moors Railway.
An extremely good question...... Listen to our show this week (1st August) when we lay bare the true mess caused by what the DfT have not done in terms of planning for the consequences of the cancellation of Phase 2
Just out of interest. Is in cab signaling better than regular network signaling. And if it is, why didnt the pendelinos have in cab signaling on the west coast mainline instead of the upgraged network. Thanks
I'll leave others to comment on the benefits of 'in cab signalling' from a drivers perspective. But essentially as Richard mentioned, the Signalling System intended for the PUG2 upgrade was to allow 140mph running. This requirement mandated a cab signalling system. Why? Because as at 140mph it is simply impractical , and in some cases impossible with the curves on WCML for the driver to read and assimilate the the information being conveyed by the lineside colour light signal display in the time available from it first becoming readable, to passing it. Trouble was, Railtrack, as mentioned by Richard were wholly reliant on the rail industry to develop such a system from scratch, get a UK Application Safety Case for a novel product, including the track / interlocking / train system interface through formal safety approval, design and implement the system for the whole of the WCML south of Crewe (at least) while compiling a complete set of design standards for that to happen. Totally Bonkers. Essentially, Altom were building the Pendelino's while a different part of Alstom (may still have been called Asthom back then) were contracted to develop the signalling which would presumably have included the on board kit for the trains - until it became obvious the task was literally years away from bearing fruit. Then came the SRA lead de / re-scoping of the whole WCRM project to revert to a more conventional signalling technology albeit adopting Axle Counter tech for the principal mode of Train Detection - another hasty development project in parallel with safety approval, design and implementation.
Good evening, fantastic show, guys.
Just started listening. I should be going to bed. I'm off to Great Central tomorrow.
.
I've been listening on podbeam.
.
I'm a rail enthusiast
30 years before travelling around the UK.
Best railway in the world.
.
Just listened to your
1st episode
2nd episode.
What I like about that.
So, so true 100%
Public hate the HS2
Because the government gave all the information completely wrong. Turned something negative into something that could be a vital part of the infrastructure.
And all the other positive add-ons.
.
Just started
Episode 3
Got to the upgrade of the west coast main line.
I'm from Rugby on of the bottle necks.
Peter waterman did a talk at Leamington Spa.
Done all the verbal chat all the
Diagrams.
.
I remember standing on a new platform 1 at Rugby.
One network rail employee had to keep an eye on the points, which hopefully the new box
Could change the points
accordingly
Birmingham New Street
Or
North of England.
It was seriously one pair of points. Somewhere between 2002 and 2005,
I found that quite amusing.
.
So love your program. Keep it up lads
Thanks - really appreciate the feedback and kind words!
Great discussion. It always seems to me that the WCML is considered a poor cousin of the ECML. It strikes me as odd that if Manchester-London route is the most important revenue flow as you say, then why does the Government disregard it so much? Maybe I’m not being fair but that’s how I feel with the cancellation of the HS2 phase 2
Love hearing your anecdotes!
(No need to ask me what my favourite railway is - Ffestiniog obviously!)
All very fair points!
Tamworth losing service? MK only getting 2 stoppers an hour? Just give a thought to Watford Junction, which, before the Virgin High Frequency changes, used to get stops hourly or alternate hourly to all destinations, but after VHF just got 1 hourly to Birmingham. Any other destinations require a change at MK.
Special rail trip, this was first mentioned in a pub, but still became reality.
The trip started in Stafford early catching the Avanti to Glasgow 1st class, then the Scotrail to Edinburgh. We then boarded the LNER to King's Cross again 1st class before walking to Euston and returning to Stafford, again Avanti 1st class.
A quite exhausting day but an experience I will remember.
Wow - that is an epic journey. Never done that but can imagine is indeed quite exhausting. I did once do a Class 40 railtour that involved Birmingham - Mossend - Inverness - then the Dufftown / Burghead branches - Inverness - Aberdeen - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Setlle & Carlisle to Hellifield - Blackburn. It was done between Friday night and Sunday afternoon. Exhausted at the end but great fun! Those were the days!
As a former member of WCRM project team, it was fascinating to listen to Richard's stories about that and the Pendolino. Perhaps he could enlighten the audience in a future issue about the belated need for 25 kV Harmonic Dampers on the Overhead Line supply and the frantic installation programme necessary because they were omitted from the trains? Good stuff guys 👍
A really interesting point. When was that done? As in the frantic installation programme? Presumably when the trains were being brought into service? My memory not great on that because I was mainly involved with procurement and design rather than commissioning. However, one thing worth remembering is that in PUG2, there is a Section / Schedule called the TTIS or Track Train Interface Specification. That was where we as Virgin said to Railtrack - you must tell us everything about the infrastructure that is relevant to the design of the train. If you want to 'constrain' us in designing the train, here's where to write it because other than the stuff that is in the TTIS, we can do whatever we need to (subject of course to getting Route Acceptance / type approval for which there was a separate contract called VRAC - Vehicle and Route Acceptance Contract which ironically Tom Winsor and I wrote!) I don't recall Harmonic dampers being in the TTIS because if they had been, we would have put them in Schedule 5 (the design spec / parameters) in the contract with Alstom / Fiat. But I shall now go and dig out my copy of PUG2 and have a jolly good look. Thanks for the question! Cheers. Richard
Early 2000’s, probably 2001/2. I seem to recall it was to do with the potential harmonics generated by the Pendolino drives that could be imposed on the OHL supply hence a Safety Case requirement to mitigate such. I believe there was no room to add a device to the train so Railtrack (via the OLE Alliance) embarked on a project to add Harmonic Dampers to each and every electrical section on the routes cleared for Pendo operation. The advent of Auto-Transformer operation negated the need for damping but (I may be wrong here) I think it still remains in the Pendo safety case to this day!
Tremendous stuff gents, I enjoyed this episode as much as the first one. The fascinating insights and anecdotes really help to bring the discussion to life, too! 👍
Thanks Brian. Really appreciate the feedback.
Another great discussion. Shocking really how badly setup railtrack were to be in charge of infrastructure. Luckily I got my shares refunded! Loved the cab ride story. Running a mk3 coach to test clearances is what I do when testing my model railway! After hearing all the upgrade woes HS2 needs to keep going. You are building a library to match classic album documentaries. There have been good TV on St Pancras and crossrail, I wonder if an HS2 one is being made?
A film of HS2 would be great wouldn't it. And I love your comment about classic album documentaries. Lot's more 'inside' stories to come!
I was fortunate my father worked on the railway, so I had free travel.
.
Travel Dawlish seawall
But it's impossible.
Everywhere is beautiful.
Whitby & Yorkshire Moors Railway.
Agreed - so many beautiful stretches of line
Route capacity north is a real problem. When are we going to hear a sensible plan.
An extremely good question...... Listen to our show this week (1st August) when we lay bare the true mess caused by what the DfT have not done in terms of planning for the consequences of the cancellation of Phase 2
Favorite Train Journey ? - The Trans Karoo Express from Johannesburg Park Station to Cape Town.
Love it. That's a great one. We'll mention that one next week!
Project Rio, when the railway was run for the benefit of customers and not Bean counters in Government.
Indeed it was!
Just out of interest. Is in cab signaling better than regular network signaling. And if it is, why didnt the pendelinos have in cab signaling on the west coast mainline instead of the upgraged network.
Thanks
I'll leave others to comment on the benefits of 'in cab signalling' from a drivers perspective.
But essentially as Richard mentioned, the Signalling System intended for the PUG2 upgrade was to allow 140mph running. This requirement mandated a cab signalling system. Why? Because as at 140mph it is simply impractical , and in some cases impossible with the curves on WCML for the driver to read and assimilate the the information being conveyed by the lineside colour light signal display in the time available from it first becoming readable, to passing it.
Trouble was, Railtrack, as mentioned by Richard were wholly reliant on the rail industry to develop such a system from scratch, get a UK Application Safety Case for a novel product, including the track / interlocking / train system interface through formal safety approval, design and implement the system for the whole of the WCML south of Crewe (at least) while compiling a complete set of design standards for that to happen. Totally Bonkers.
Essentially, Altom were building the Pendelino's while a different part of Alstom (may still have been called Asthom back then) were contracted to develop the signalling which would presumably have included the on board kit for the trains - until it became obvious the task was literally years away from bearing fruit. Then came the SRA lead de / re-scoping of the whole WCRM project to revert to a more conventional signalling technology albeit adopting Axle Counter tech for the principal mode of Train Detection - another hasty development project in parallel with safety approval, design and implementation.