10:43 TIP: hook a fish tape to the bit, not the romex, pull the tape through, the counter pull the wire. Also, while this is all open, it’s a good time to think about speaker placement … or security or even a mesh system for networking
Interesting. I replaced old bedroom ceiling fixtures with that same LED fixture you’re now ditching and the results were excellent. I can’t imagine making them even brighter now.
I am filing this away for the next time I do lighting. More likely I will have an electrician do it, but I think it is so important to understand the process if someone is doing it for you. I ❤ your videos, and love my tshurt too!
Good DIY project. I will mention that if this ceiling accesses an unconditioned space (i.e. attic) then all openings should be sealed to reduce air leakage as much as practical. Leakage leaves ugly dust and black streaks around such fixtures, can cause mold growth and rot on or within walls and ceilings, increases HVAC costs, and potentially reduces indoor air quality depending upon your home's construction. Any time we are cutting into exterior walls, ceilings, or bottom floors we need to block those openings as much as practical to reduce air and pest infiltration. Just covering them with the fixture is not good enough; we need to block and seal the gaps. Home ventilation is critical, but it must be controlled and and should not be through random leaks as those tend to cause damage, mold, and energy waste. Anyone who's done DIY electrical work on an older home has encountered what appears to be coal dust collected behind fixtures and within their electrical boxes. That represents years or decades of infiltration where airborne dust and moisture caused what you see; sealed boxes do not get dirt inside.
I agree. I have one, and it's a game changer when trying to avoid cutting up a wall or ceiling just to string a wire past a stud or rafter or fire block.
@@LRN2DIY Hello, I am an employee of anpviz. Our company specializes in professional security monitoring, and we have many new products recently. You can test them for free and publish them on your website. We can offer you a commission. We look forward to your reply
When I put in lights similar to your round LEDs, I affixed some duct (Gorilla?) tape around the drywall edges where those clips are to prevent damage from possible future removal. The clips on mine are very strongly sprung!
Did the panels in my garage, upgraded from the old school screw in bulb fixtures. Cost was $120 since the electrical outlets were already there., and its incredible the lighting was changed. Did one in my laundry room to
P.S.A. For anyone watching. All of these fixtures are disposable, one time use. There is no light source that can be replaced in them. When it dies, the entire fixture must be removed and replaced. Replacement fixtures often are not available and if they are, almost never match. If you are going to use these types of fixtures, please purchase extras. In my experience, about 1 in 10 is defective and will not last more than a month. The next batch never matches the first ones. Of course the proper way to do this is to buy fixtures with replaceable light sources such as light bulbs. Regular can lights are still far superior and look better. All of the fixtures featured here produce extremely harsh glare which is very hard and fatiguing on your eyes. You want your light source to be hidden, recessed up in the ceiling for example. I hope this helps someone one avoid all the pain that I have seen these fixtures cause.
Light harshness is due to the color temperature. If you want a soft glow like an incandescent then you want 2700K. I agree if you get a 5000K or higher, the light will be harsh. There are also plenty of lights that have a switch to change the color temperature to whatever you prefer.
Led fixtures are stupid and wasteful, just another disposable non repairable product like pretty everything else manufacturers sell these day to steal money from you.
When drilling out the 1/2" holes, you could have turned a clear takeout box lid into a dust catcher similar to the bowl for the hole cutter. Just drill a hole in the lid the size of the base of the drillbit, then chuck the drillbit through it.
After seeing your video on the issues you had in this video, yeah, I can hear the defeat in your voice. Im glad you talked about the issues, though. Im pretty sure someone like me would screw up a lot more trying to do something like this.
My two condo bedrooms didn't have any ceiling lights so were always kind of dingy when using only lamps. I did install can lights down stairs and while they are a nice update and bright, that look is getting old, IMO, so I looked around a lot for different ideas for the bedrooms. One day while shopping at Lowe's for other things, I ran across large outdoor ceiling LED lights that are really bright, are surface mount, in either circular or square and most importantly, really flat. One light in each room was all it took for a really bright room if that's what you're going for.
Another "tool" that is really handy for stringing wire without convenient access is a "wire running kit", aka "fish pole". It's a set of 3' fiberglass segments that screw together, with different bits to screw onto the end--a hook, or an eyelet, etc. I've installed two ceiling fans and a bathroom exhaust fan, stringing the wire with my "fish pole". I bought mine at Harbor freight for about $11 as I recall. Unlike a standard fish tape, it's pretty easy to guide it, because it's stiff. And that stiffness allows it to go over intervening rafters if there's a little room but not enough room to have other convenient access.
Have fun getting past fire stop studs and support beams in the basement ceiling layer. Some houses have insulation so you got to whip out that drywall compound and whatever at some point.
Great video. And awesome adding that much more light. My fear with LED lights like this is they may fail. In 2018 I installed a large LED lamp in my kitchen to replace a fixture with 4 florescent tubes. In 2021 the driver failed. The manufacturer did replace the driver so it works well again. However I'm not in the same time frame of failure as the first failure. If you do not get a part replace under warranty then you will have to replace the entire fixture. If that fixture is no longer available you will have to replace it, if you four and one fails you will have one unlike the others. Most will not like those asteticks. Just my thoughts.
A tip for thoes junction boxes pre run the threads into the plastic before you install them you'll have a much better time. It's easier to deal with stuff before you have it up there.
The builder of my house apparently had a can light fetish. There are over a hundred can lights in my house 😳 The good news is the LED retrofit kits that cover the can are pretty cheap and easy to install. Better light distribution and look than just replacing with LED bulbs. Considering those Barrina shop lights in my basement. I've been using their grow lights for a while and they are super bright.
He's going off the Mexican NEC 😃... kidding, at 25:36 he does add a Jbox, not sure why he didn't in that one there, maybe he went back to it afterward.
He's got the 1922 issue of NEC he's a little behind but don't worry he's gonna solder them joints and wrap them with asbestos tape off camera we're good.
@@StewartAntonioHighly doubt he went back to the first one he installed after securing the fixture with the toggle bolts. DIY special, noting ever done properly but “good enough”.
I can’t thank you enough for showing how to add extra lighting to an area in a house and the tool tip great. Keep up with these awesome videos, also the garage door video is going to be a to do project once the weather cools down here the Houston Texas area. 👍🏻
I replaced about 50 fluorescent fixtures with the led flat panels from Costco. They went up easy after I put up a few of them. They was all next to a rafter, so the frame got secured into wood. They brightened up our church class rooms and hallways.
I'm sure somebody else has already commented, but I didn't see it when I scrolled, so just a little public service announcement. The non-contact testers should NOT be used to indicate voltage OFF. They can give you false readings. There are circumstances when there is voltage present but they won't indicate. They should only be trusted to give you an indication of voltage ON.
wow I have not seen a bendy-drill-bit like that before, same with the holed-bit for fishing wires. very handy ideas! thanks. I have removed a lot of drywall to route wires over the decades.
Scared to purchase the wall about or whatever it’s called as I have purchased many different stud finders through the years, like five different ones for this house. I don’t know why it’s so difficult I know there’s paneling that’s glued to the drywall. Nails are a maybe. Then either wallpaper, painted drywall, or textured drywall. I keep wanting to find a tool that works even 75% of the time. Still seems best is super small drill bit. But 3-5 holes seems needed so decent amount of drywall repair and painting plus chance of drilling into wiring.
Ready for a easy way to find wire in a ceiling? I use a metal detector precision wand. They are 15 ro 30 dollars on az and I can literally trace the wire through the wall. If it's copper pipes as well your golden 👍.
My main living room has a ceiling fan light which doesnt produce as much bright lights as this video. What can I install to make it bright with a dimmer but also make the living room look luxurious?
Change the bulb to a dimmable bulb with a higher wattage and lumen output, and replace the switch to a dimming switch. That's the easiest route. Harder route is an all new ceiling fan, and accessory lights like the pods he shows in this video.
@@bv226 No you cannot, it would not be safe or Code compliant, as ALL splices must be contained within the fixture itself or in an approved junction box. And in an apartment situation if any tenant makes an unsafe situation like that which starts a fire they will be held liable for all damages. (I worked with an apartment management company and have seen this first hand, it is not pretty.)
shouldn't all of those wires to each light be in a box and not just loose up in the ceiling? The puck lights have the metal box, but I'm pretty sure you cant just join wires in the empty ceiling.
When geek squad decides they’re going to try electrical work. there’s a reason why you have to go to school and lock on 8000 hours to be a certified electrician bro
that stud/wire/pipe finder that linked to your phone seemed to only show studs. I know you probably make decent money from people purchasing products from your links so I'm curious if you honestly think that was worth it or if you were just trying it out because someone sent it to you to use in a video and it isn't what you would use normally at all.
I was pretty unclear there. 2x material measures 1 1/2” thick, yes, but many joists over the last couple of decades are built in I Joist format. 1 1/2” thick top and bottom rails with 1/2” thick OSB or other material connecting them, like this: Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing. www.homedepot.com/p/53L-Series-2-1-16-in-x-11-7-8-in-x-14-ft-I-Joist-216117814IJ/322620047
My ad blockers are so good that I can't even visit the links you put because they all track me. It gets caught by the final line of defense which is dns based.
Keep in mind that I'm showing one of the toughest scenarios to deal with. In a lot of homes, you can do this without the long bits or nicer stud sensors. You would really just need a ceiling hole drill set ($45) and a few tools you likely already have, like a drill, basic stud finder and wire strippers. My situation crossed multiple joists and went through insulation the whole time, making it pretty challenging.
I grabbed the ceiling hole saw kit from Harbor Freight for less than $20. Came with the 3 common sizes for Min-Max diameter for 4" cans. Unless you need the 6" or are doing this commercials, these are fine
Keep in mind that I'm showing one of the toughest scenarios to deal with. In a lot of homes, you can do this without the long bits or nicer stud sensors. You would really just need a ceiling hole drill set ($45) and a few tools you likely already have, like a drill, basic stud finder and wire strippers. My situation crossed multiple joists and went through insulation the whole time, making it pretty challenging.
10:43 TIP: hook a fish tape to the bit, not the romex, pull the tape through, the counter pull the wire.
Also, while this is all open, it’s a good time to think about speaker placement … or security or even a mesh system for networking
Great feedback here. Thank you!
I remember seeing a video where people use a plastic bag to suck a string through a conduit before passing the actual wire.
Interesting. I replaced old bedroom ceiling fixtures with that same LED fixture you’re now ditching and the results were excellent. I can’t imagine making them even brighter now.
I am filing this away for the next time I do lighting. More likely I will have an electrician do it, but I think it is so important to understand the process if someone is doing it for you. I ❤ your videos, and love my tshurt too!
Good DIY project. I will mention that if this ceiling accesses an unconditioned space (i.e. attic) then all openings should be sealed to reduce air leakage as much as practical. Leakage leaves ugly dust and black streaks around such fixtures, can cause mold growth and rot on or within walls and ceilings, increases HVAC costs, and potentially reduces indoor air quality depending upon your home's construction.
Any time we are cutting into exterior walls, ceilings, or bottom floors we need to block those openings as much as practical to reduce air and pest infiltration. Just covering them with the fixture is not good enough; we need to block and seal the gaps. Home ventilation is critical, but it must be controlled and and should not be through random leaks as those tend to cause damage, mold, and energy waste.
Anyone who's done DIY electrical work on an older home has encountered what appears to be coal dust collected behind fixtures and within their electrical boxes. That represents years or decades of infiltration where airborne dust and moisture caused what you see; sealed boxes do not get dirt inside.
That Klein 54 bendable bit is awesome. Next time I have to do this, it won't be such a struggle session. Thanks for that
Glad to hear it and thanks for watching!
I agree. I have one, and it's a game changer when trying to avoid cutting up a wall or ceiling just to string a wire past a stud or rafter or fire block.
@@LRN2DIY Hello, I am an employee of anpviz. Our company specializes in professional security monitoring, and we have many new products recently. You can test them for free and publish them on your website. We can offer you a commission. We look forward to your reply
Hope you don’t hit a water line
When I put in lights similar to your round LEDs, I affixed some duct (Gorilla?) tape around the drywall edges where those clips are to prevent damage from possible future removal. The clips on mine are very strongly sprung!
You're right- they are pretty aggressive!
Did the panels in my garage, upgraded from the old school screw in bulb fixtures. Cost was $120 since the electrical outlets were already there., and its incredible the lighting was changed. Did one in my laundry room to
lol yea those lights belong in a garage
P.S.A. For anyone watching. All of these fixtures are disposable, one time use. There is no light source that can be replaced in them. When it dies, the entire fixture must be removed and replaced. Replacement fixtures often are not available and if they are, almost never match. If you are going to use these types of fixtures, please purchase extras. In my experience, about 1 in 10 is defective and will not last more than a month. The next batch never matches the first ones. Of course the proper way to do this is to buy fixtures with replaceable light sources such as light bulbs. Regular can lights are still far superior and look better. All of the fixtures featured here produce extremely harsh glare which is very hard and fatiguing on your eyes. You want your light source to be hidden, recessed up in the ceiling for example. I hope this helps someone one avoid all the pain that I have seen these fixtures cause.
The LEDs, assuming you bought decent ones, should last you several years.
Light harshness is due to the color temperature. If you want a soft glow like an incandescent then you want 2700K. I agree if you get a 5000K or higher, the light will be harsh. There are also plenty of lights that have a switch to change the color temperature to whatever you prefer.
Led fixtures are stupid and wasteful, just another disposable non repairable product like pretty everything else manufacturers sell these day to steal money from you.
Congratulations on getting a million subscribers!
Thanks so much!
dude are you spying on me? everytime I have an issue I find one of your vids... you are the best!
Congratulations on making to 1 million subscribers! We all knew you’d do it! 🎉👏🏻🎉 Can’t wait to see the gold play button.
Thank you! I'm anxiously awaiting the play button and will be doing a live stream to open it.
@@LRN2DIY can’t wait my guy!
Hy bro I'm auto sales man ruclips.net/video/QP3tBDR1W7w/видео.htmlsi=JoPen9R640isehOu
Congrats on 1M subs!
Thank you so much! Looking forward to a Live Stream soon to open the Gold Play Button when I get it.
When drilling out the 1/2" holes, you could have turned a clear takeout box lid into a dust catcher similar to the bowl for the hole cutter. Just drill a hole in the lid the size of the base of the drillbit, then chuck the drillbit through it.
After seeing your video on the issues you had in this video, yeah, I can hear the defeat in your voice. Im glad you talked about the issues, though. Im pretty sure someone like me would screw up a lot more trying to do something like this.
thanks for sharing
My two condo bedrooms didn't have any ceiling lights so were always kind of dingy when using only lamps. I did install can lights down stairs and while they are a nice update and bright, that look is getting old, IMO, so I looked around a lot for different ideas for the bedrooms. One day while shopping at Lowe's for other things, I ran across large outdoor ceiling LED lights that are really bright, are surface mount, in either circular or square and most importantly, really flat. One light in each room was all it took for a really bright room if that's what you're going for.
Another "tool" that is really handy for stringing wire without convenient access is a "wire running kit", aka "fish pole". It's a set of 3' fiberglass segments that screw together, with different bits to screw onto the end--a hook, or an eyelet, etc. I've installed two ceiling fans and a bathroom exhaust fan, stringing the wire with my "fish pole". I bought mine at Harbor freight for about $11 as I recall. Unlike a standard fish tape, it's pretty easy to guide it, because it's stiff. And that stiffness allows it to go over intervening rafters if there's a little room but not enough room to have other convenient access.
Have fun getting past fire stop studs and support beams in the basement ceiling layer. Some houses have insulation so you got to whip out that drywall compound and whatever at some point.
Great video. And awesome adding that much more light. My fear with LED lights like this is they may fail. In 2018 I installed a large LED lamp in my kitchen to replace a fixture with 4 florescent tubes. In 2021 the driver failed. The manufacturer did replace the driver so it works well again. However I'm not in the same time frame of failure as the first failure. If you do not get a part replace under warranty then you will have to replace the entire fixture. If that fixture is no longer available you will have to replace it, if you four and one fails you will have one unlike the others. Most will not like those asteticks. Just my thoughts.
A tip for thoes junction boxes pre run the threads into the plastic before you install them you'll have a much better time. It's easier to deal with stuff before you have it up there.
The builder of my house apparently had a can light fetish. There are over a hundred can lights in my house 😳
The good news is the LED retrofit kits that cover the can are pretty cheap and easy to install. Better light distribution and look than just replacing with LED bulbs.
Considering those Barrina shop lights in my basement. I've been using their grow lights for a while and they are super bright.
Parabéns pelo vídeo, gosto bastante quando aparece opção áudio português Brasil
Nice.
24:15 etc: I'm pretty sure no NECs allow unboxed wire connections like you've done here...
He's going off the Mexican NEC 😃... kidding, at 25:36 he does add a Jbox, not sure why he didn't in that one there, maybe he went back to it afterward.
24:15 You are 100% correct. Beat me to the comment
He's got the 1922 issue of NEC he's a little behind but don't worry he's gonna solder them joints and wrap them with asbestos tape off camera we're good.
@@StewartAntonioHighly doubt he went back to the first one he installed after securing the fixture with the toggle bolts. DIY special, noting ever done properly but “good enough”.
@@JSH1There is a cut in the video before he secured the light to the ceiling so I'm hoping he realized it and installed the box.
I can’t thank you enough for showing how to add extra lighting to an area in a house and the tool tip great. Keep up with these awesome videos, also the garage door video is going to be a to do project once the weather cools down here the Houston Texas area. 👍🏻
Thanks for watching and best of luck with the garage door!
Hy bro I'm auto sales man ruclips.net/video/QP3tBDR1W7w/видео.htmlsi=JoPen9R640isehOu
I replaced about 50 fluorescent fixtures with the led flat panels from Costco. They went up easy after I put up a few of them. They was all next to a rafter, so the frame got secured into wood. They brightened up our church class rooms and hallways.
I'm sure somebody else has already commented, but I didn't see it when I scrolled, so just a little public service announcement. The non-contact testers should NOT be used to indicate voltage OFF. They can give you false readings. There are circumstances when there is voltage present but they won't indicate. They should only be trusted to give you an indication of voltage ON.
Cool 👍👍
wow I have not seen a bendy-drill-bit like that before, same with the holed-bit for fishing wires. very handy ideas! thanks. I have removed a lot of drywall to route wires over the decades.
Link for "Non-contact Sensor?" Congrat's on hitting the 1M subscriber mark.
Scared to purchase the wall about or whatever it’s called as I have purchased many different stud finders through the years, like five different ones for this house. I don’t know why it’s so difficult I know there’s paneling that’s glued to the drywall. Nails are a maybe. Then either wallpaper, painted drywall, or textured drywall. I keep wanting to find a tool that works even 75% of the time. Still seems best is super small drill bit. But 3-5 holes seems needed so decent amount of drywall repair and painting plus chance of drilling into wiring.
Ready for a easy way to find wire in a ceiling? I use a metal detector precision wand. They are 15 ro 30 dollars on az and I can literally trace the wire through the wall. If it's copper pipes as well your golden 👍.
I believe it’s pronounced “Way-Go” (Wago)! 😊
If you want these panels, watch the pricing carefully. Currently, a 6 pack is only $3 more than a 4 pack.
I have no idea that an extremely long and flexible drill bit existed. I would have to buy that and the dumb holder for >100$
They are expensive but they shouldn't be that much. I picked mine up at Home Depot for $45. Online it looks like they're closer to $65.
Do you have a list of products that you used?
in description
what kind of puck lights did you use and what are the lumens output on those puck lights?
I used the Commercial Electric 1009 410 792 kit. They’re 540 lumens each.
My main living room has a ceiling fan light which doesnt produce as much bright lights as this video. What can I install to make it bright with a dimmer but also make the living room look luxurious?
Change the bulb to a dimmable bulb with a higher wattage and lumen output, and replace the switch to a dimming switch. That's the easiest route. Harder route is an all new ceiling fan, and accessory lights like the pods he shows in this video.
I agree with @user-di7dn6yh9r. Better bulbs + dimmer switch is the best option but, short of that, you'll need a new fixture.
Great panel lights, just wondering if there's a version with a wall plug for apts without ceiling wires🤔
You can easily add a cord and plug if needed.
@@bv226 No you cannot, it would not be safe or Code compliant, as ALL splices must be contained within the fixture itself or in an approved junction box. And in an apartment situation if any tenant makes an unsafe situation like that which starts a fire they will be held liable for all damages. (I worked with an apartment management company and have seen this first hand, it is not pretty.)
shouldn't all of those wires to each light be in a box and not just loose up in the ceiling? The puck lights have the metal box, but I'm pretty sure you cant just join wires in the empty ceiling.
When geek squad decides they’re going to try electrical work. there’s a reason why you have to go to school and lock on 8000 hours to be a certified electrician bro
Ill save everyone a 30 minute video ...more lights equals brighter room. Youre welcome.🎉
Nah bro, buy the Sam's club garage light, $20 box a pop and they can be connected one after another. Similar or even greater brightness
How to make ot 9x brighter? Add 9x the lights. Who would've thought?
M12 surge
For anyone considering this project, if you have carpet upstairs, just roll back the carpet/pad and open up a long strip from above.
👍
Why would you not just install can lights ? Guess you were going for that garage look.
that stud/wire/pipe finder that linked to your phone seemed to only show studs. I know you probably make decent money from people purchasing products from your links so I'm curious if you honestly think that was worth it or if you were just trying it out because someone sent it to you to use in a video and it isn't what you would use normally at all.
I cannot stand white light and prefer my house darker so I tend to like the more yellow lights.
Floor joists are 1 1/2 thick, not 1/2 inch.
I was pretty unclear there. 2x material measures 1 1/2” thick, yes, but many joists over the last couple of decades are built in I Joist format. 1 1/2” thick top and bottom rails with 1/2” thick OSB or other material connecting them, like this: Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing.
www.homedepot.com/p/53L-Series-2-1-16-in-x-11-7-8-in-x-14-ft-I-Joist-216117814IJ/322620047
Lewis Sharon Williams Richard Hernandez George
Adding a 650000 lumen high bay warehouse light made my bedroom brighter.
My ad blockers are so good that I can't even visit the links you put because they all track me. It gets caught by the final line of defense which is dns based.
Yeah that's one of the ways he makes money. Commission off of people buying stuff from his video. it uses Geniuslink
Hopefully you can at least copy and paste some of the titles of the products to help you find what you need - or temporarily turn off ad blocking.
What ad blocker you use ?
@@GyhcdhbJotghlbcw Browser and network side ones.
ruclips.net/video/QP3tBDR1W7w/видео.htmlsi=JoPen9R640isehOu
Brown Mark Miller Timothy Hernandez Thomas
I would not recommend holding the lights without gloves as the oils on your hand will slowly accumulate dirt on the fixture over time
all the gadgets to install a light, are out of my league.
Thompson Brenda Clark Joseph Hernandez Matthew
If i paint my room with black 4.0, will it still make it 9x brighter?
Moore Mark Jackson Richard Taylor Nancy
Robinson Elizabeth Thompson Gary Thomas Angela
Lewis Helen Young Kevin Moore Steven
Dude is a joke.
Does he not know can lights come in multiple sizes and a huge range of lumens
That lighting would be a nightmare for me. Enjoy having a headache every time you sit in that room for longer than 10 minutes 😭
U can change the lighting to make it yellow instead of super bright
I hate videos like this, all these new tools and gadgets 😅
Keep in mind that I'm showing one of the toughest scenarios to deal with. In a lot of homes, you can do this without the long bits or nicer stud sensors. You would really just need a ceiling hole drill set ($45) and a few tools you likely already have, like a drill, basic stud finder and wire strippers. My situation crossed multiple joists and went through insulation the whole time, making it pretty challenging.
@@LRN2DIY 💯 like my of my tools, I really don't need them but I might do 🛒🛒🛒
I grabbed the ceiling hole saw kit from Harbor Freight for less than $20. Came with the 3 common sizes for Min-Max diameter for 4" cans. Unless you need the 6" or are doing this commercials, these are fine
U gotta pay to play playa 😂😂
Watch video. Price every tool and gadget you don’t have. Factor in the sheer headache of doing it yourself. Better to hire a professional.
Unless you do this sort of thing for a living. I f hate when houses use aluminum wire or that weird cloth wire.
Keep in mind that I'm showing one of the toughest scenarios to deal with. In a lot of homes, you can do this without the long bits or nicer stud sensors. You would really just need a ceiling hole drill set ($45) and a few tools you likely already have, like a drill, basic stud finder and wire strippers. My situation crossed multiple joists and went through insulation the whole time, making it pretty challenging.
Yikes! That is the worst new lighting I've seen in quite a while. Looks like a sterile factory assembly plant. More light is'nt always better. FAIL!
I mean fish tape works pretty well at pulling wire
Sheathing tape.
Thomas Jeffrey Williams Larry Johnson Paul