1975: CLOUGH and McMENEMY vs Football Writers on NORTH EAST FOOTBALL | Classic Sport | BBC Archive
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- England's two biggest North East clubs - Newcastle United and Sunderland - haven't won a First Division league title between them since 1936, and over the last 20 years haven't even been close to competing for it, rather they've been yo-yoing between the First and Third divisions, winning a cup competition on vanishingly rare occasions.
The North East was historically considered by many to be the "hotbed of football", a tag that persists in some quarters, in spite of a paucity of success on the pitch.
George House is joined by two of English football's most highly-regarded managers, Brian Clough and Lawrie McMenemy - who both hail from the region - and North East football writers John Gibson (Newcastle Evening Chronicle) and Doug Weatherall (Daily Mail), to debate the eternal question; what's wrong with football in the North East?
This clip is from The Northern Myth, originally broadcast on BBC One (North East), Friday 3 October, 1975.
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Intelligent, considerate, knowledgeable, not sensationalist and a pure joy to watch.
We took a wrong turning somewhere between then and now
without doubt. What has happened to us
Well said.
Nice 👍
Mate, I'm Scottish and aye your right, the wrong turn was Jimmy Hill being allowed to influence players ages to sky rocket. Footballers came from working class backgrounds and literally over a short period of time started to live outlandish life styles while the working class supporter worked their arse off during the week to go and support their team.
If you bought Sky in the 90s, then you are responsible for where we are now. Premier & money money money for this hybrid game now.
Could you imagine them trying to make a show like this these days? All you would get is Alex Scott constantly interrupting talking crap and Micah Richards being obnoxiously loud and laughing every 2 minutes.
And that's after his £300 weekly haircut!!
Absolutely
How long have you disliked black people?
Hearing Alex Scottsay waxing lyrical makes me wanna puke 😂😂😂 please stop her saying that
Yes Richards is very full of himself. So was Clough, but he could hold a debate.......... and he did not laugh inanely at his own jokes.
This is just fabulous. We know how great Brian Clough was but Lawrie McMenemy is fabulous here. Brilliant debate.
Absolutely, Lawrie speaks very well here
What a gem - lovely to see four Englishmen debating in a gentlemanly fashion - how I miss the 70's!
I guess no Frenchman are allowed then.
6:39
Another classic Cloughie clip 🤩 Always witty, quickly gets to the point & has a memorable response. The media must’ve loved him as much we fans did!
Imagine how HUGE Cloughie would have been today in this age of Social Media
“Soccer” used commonly rather than “football “ which now is an anathema.
Yes, the “football” thing annoys the hell out of me.
Good days, when football wasn't all about the money
Couple of local hacks being owned by Clough and McMenemy.
😂
True again
TY for sharing this. I had the pleasure of sharing a newsroom for several years with George House when I worked as a freelance reporter/sports presenter, for what was then called BBC Radio Newcastle. A fine broadcaster & a most kind man. As a fledgling writer, I am most grateful to John Gibson for the time, patience & kindness he showed to me when I met him at the Newcastle Evening Chronicle offices in the early 1980s. I was beginning my professional writing career & I cherish his sage advice. I later shared the press box with him at St. James' Park & Doug Wetherall was also present on many occasions. I never met Brian Clough, but his pedigree as a manager is well known. I did meet Lawrie McMenemy once at Roker Park when I was covering Sunderland home matches for commercial station Radio Tees. He was visiting, as the then Southampton manager.
I love listening to him on the 'Everything is Black & White' podcast.
Love the way Clough brought up Birmingham and it's a great point - Blues were getting massive gates in the 70's and Villa were incredibly well supported even though they spent two seasons in the third division: they got over 48,000 in for a game against Bournemouth in that league in 1972.
They got under 5k against certain teams in the 70s tinpot
49 years later.
Middlesbrough (who are, for some reason getting shade from everyone on this panel, including our Brian) are the only ones to win a major trophy and the only ones to compete in a major European Final since this was recorded.
Isn’t that Middlesbrough’s only trophy as well?
@safc1986safc yep, and the only one in the North East for 50 years.
Worth repeating.
All true. But still a small town in Yorkshire and still levels below both Sunderland and Newcastle in terms of stature and support.
@05amiller probably A level. Nothing more than that and that's due to the size of the place.
I feel like you're saying it as that's a negative. When it's really not. They won a trophy and got to a major European Final whilst the two 'bigger' clubs have done sweet FA.
They also outrank the other two in major finals in the last 50 years with 5 appearances.
Can we all agree that "soccer" was in common usage in England, and isn't some kind of American import.
Absolutely. I remember its uninhibited widespread usage when I was a teenager in the 70s. But it seems there is a deep-seated anti-USA sentiment in today's world, and as soon as football took off in a big way in the US, this bias began to manifest itself in English-speaking European countries by scorning the term "soccer", as though it were an Americanism, and therefore uniquely representative of the USA, which it patently is not.
I'm 49 and we rarely if ever used the word soccer.
Unless you were young in the 70s before I was born, then other than the NASFL of the mid to late 70s, soccer isn't an English or British word.
As much as far too much anti American sentiment is prescient today, I disagree with you wholly. The word isn't used in Britain and arguably in Europe nor has ever been
@@Sidneyyoungblood75 Its true that football is by far the most used term, but soccer is still in use. For example the main TV roundup show on Sky is still called Soccer Saturday. Soccer is short for Association Football, as opposed to the Rugby Football Union, or Rugger for short.
@@Sidneyyoungblood75 Soccer is the most used word for the sport in Netherlands.
Usual crap about passion. No individual fan is anymore passionate than one from say Barrow who follows their club everywhere. I find that very irritating
I have no idea why this was recommended to me but I'm glad it was. I follow a team who is turmoil and struggles to get fans through the door and have always been envious of the North East atmosphere. The way the people from these areas talk about the game and the fans is brilliant. Fans are always at the heart of everything and managers like Clough understood that
The plight of north east football, the passion not matched by the success on the pitch. It’s a tale as old as time
The comments here are spot on. This conversation highlights the lost art of Listen to Speak- yes there is some butting in but it’s very mild and doesn’t spoil the flow. Two managerial legends I’m from Nottingham and met Cloughie many times. He was a joy to say hello to. 😊 oh and classic Clough line ‘how can you argue with me if you don’t know what I’m going to say’ haha 😅
Love the way Brian said nothing, let the journo talk then took them apart with a couple of sentences. Classic Clough! He was right, they needed to get out more.
Good Point. I remember when Holland and Germany were playing in the World Cup final and Cloughie was a panelist. Penalty given to Germany by Jack Taylor (ref) and the rest of the panelists were up in arms saying no penalty, Cloughie let them blab on for minutes, then said it was definitely a penalty, they said how could you tell, to which he replied 'precisely'.
RIP Brian man deserve a knight hood least wished he lived longer and have more impact of his genius in football and media around game
Nah glad he’s not in the same category as Sir Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris CBE. What a great manager Brian was this is obviously his pre Notts Forest tenure he talked the talk and certainly walked it the writers are way out of their league.
Fergie got 1 after winning 1 European cup albeit in a treble winning season , cloughie winning 2 and bob paisley winning 3 and not being knighted both Englishman is a disgrace
Whilst he was a decent manager, he was a product of his time. The things I struggle with are his abuse of Justin fashanu (which definitely in part led to his death), and his disgraceful comments about Hillsborough, in terms of blaming Liverpool fans. Albeit noting by then, the sauce probably influenced that.
Why would he wasn’t a knighthood? He was card carrying socialist and hated the establishment. Hence why he didn’t get the England job. I’d like to think he’d have told them to shove it their German arses.
@@Edgel-in6bs Decent manager???thats like sayin' Ali wad a decent boxer,Ronnie o'sullivan is a decent snooker player,i'm not sayin' i agree with everything clough said, but that was HIS opinion,he was entitled to it!! You arn't overly woke,are you?
Notice the way they describe football as Soccer? (Around the 1 minute mark). Apparently the change from Soccer to Football occurred in the 1980s in the UK
Fascinating. There is one thing from the 70s I remember very well and that was how older people began in their dress begin to reflect the fashion of the younger people. Men in their 50s and 60s would wear their hair a little longer, they would develop scruffy grey sideburns, their trousers would be a little wider, their lapels too. In fact if you start at the beginning going from left to right you find, I think, each time a decreasing take up of the new. Starting with journalist 1 who is full blown 70s all the way to Brian Clough who with the exception of his lapels is still 60s.
Not a man that was a slave to fashion.
Men can not grow sideburns any more and none of them are bald
You could have the same programme near 50 years on ,nothing has changed.
I agree and that's why I only watch the games & as soon as they are over I'm onto something else.
And arguably, nothing ever will.
😂😅😂👏👏👏👏👏
Well... Middlesborough (sorry if I butchered the spelling 😂) and Sunderland have different stadiums!! 😉
Newcastle are changing, there’s a definite upward trend here. Sunderland and Middlesbrough aren’t doing well though, and difficult to see any change
A pair of deluded journalists schooled by a pair of true football men.
Absolutely
Football guy said Boro a rugby town. Waffling
Rubbish, the journalists were right
@@Willsey absolute nonsense
@@MXB1973 Well I think the same of your opinion so let’s agree to disagree. I have had a hard day at work and can’t be arsed with an argument
The hotbed of Soccer - not football - nice to put the lie to the myth America invented the term soccer
Those two "journos" are absolutely delusional, newcastle fans still the same now
Doug is a huge Sunderland fan.
what a fantastic discussion, can you imagine seeing stuff like this today? clough was utterly brilliant, an absolute one off, it's interesting that this clip is nearly 50 years old and neither newcastle or sunderland have won a major honour in that time, boro won the league cup of course and they've all been in a few major finals but nothing significant has been won, newcastle's gates dropped alarmingly in the early 80's when they were floundering in division 2 but the crowds, generally speaking, at all the big north east clubs have remained very good despite the lack of tangible success, the north east is one of the biggest football hotbeds in the world but passion for the game can be found all over britain, i'm a Barrow supporter and we just got back into the football league after 48 years and we have a small vocal following as does every club including small, sleepy southern outfits, north east passion is legendary but not unique, it's just the scale of it, the game is far more important in the tyne/wear area than it is in say southampton or norwich, incidentally that era(70's) was my favourite for the game, wonderful times when i loved the game with a passion i sadly don't have anymore
Good luck to Barrow this season 👍
This shows how adults today have been become juvenile and how civility in discussion has disappeared. The journo was right about Newcastle fans being too loyal.
Nearly fifty years later,teams in the north east still haven't won a major trophy. The late brian clough in that time built two teams,one of them achieving back to back champions league wins.
Eddie Howe may just be the man to turn this around providing the board and owners LEAVE HIM ALONE.
There was no "champions" league then, you had to actually WIN your league to qualify for the European Cup, it was for winners only not 4 th place teams .
Cloughie was a great listener as well as a speaker.Lawrie class as I remember him.
No mention of Tubby Brewster the best centre forward that Morpeth ever had.
And smoke
Kick, Head, Smurk
Tubby Baxter
The Morpeth
Tubby liked his baked beans close by.
Hearing them use the word "soccer" so much is surprising to me - you don't seem to hear this in modern English commentary
Newcastle and Sunderland do have passionate fanbases, but they're also large catchment areas with few rival clubs. That's a big reason why they have large attendances.
No it more than that. The North East has always been football daft. It’s the only thing up there. London has other things like the theatre
Wrong the north east is the most passionate for football in England and probably apart from Glasgow in the UK.
@@jayhall6793 Exactly. Could not agree more. Clough was a great manager but he wasn’t always right . Just look at his Leeds role
@Willsey he was destined to fail there backroom staff nor players wanted him and he didn't like Revie just pure toxic you can't make apple pie with rotten apples
@@davidmarchant9386 True but he hardly helped himself speaking to seasoned pros like that . Have to use a bit of kidology . Ferguson understood that with Cantona when he signed him
This is a great piece of footage, and an interesting debate. As for all the talk by Gibbo and in the comments section about the passionate “uniqueness” of Newcastle fans, how about seasons 80/81, 81/82, and 90/91?
Average attendances of 16k, 17k, and 16k. In 90/91 you could finish your drink in the Irish Centre at 255pm, and be standing in the Gallowgate, with acres of space to choose from, by kick-off.
Talking of Gibbo, he worked wonders at Gateshead FC for years to keep their heads above water.
Yes a great footballing part of the world, but as Cloughie and Lawrie McMenemy pointed out, so are many other parts of the country.
Is it me or are the journalists very passive aggressive and contradictory in their comments, questions and arguments? The managers come across very well.
Nothing's changed. Many don't like having their 'expert' views challenged.
True
Passion passion passion. Tired of hearing how Geordies are better supporters than everyone else. It’s a one team city. Of course they get a lot of supporters.
Ever been? Ever experienced it? Talk of what you know, not what you think.
@@georgemorley1029 yes I’ve been. Yes I’ve experienced it. Good supporters but to act as though they are unique and better than everyone else is nonsense.
Typical Geordies , no better than any other big city fans
@@stewartclarke2474Well that’s your opinion
I lived there for three years and it’s so boring. 13:41
Those journos looking down their snobby noses at Middlesbrough, needing a bogey team to discredit to the Geordies and Mackems. Snobbery was, and is, alive and well in working people, it's important to find less worthy scapegoats, shameful. Boro fans are a humble bunch compared to this arrogance. Proud North Easterners too. Brian and Laurie put these hacks in their place, they know the bullshit they shovel to earn a good wage. They're interested in football not fantasy and mythology. Btw. Alistair Brownlee forever, UTB!
Great thanks, good exchange, heated but nobody getting offended or off track,
The long haired guy is self-deluded 😆. Derby County had higher average attendances than Newcastle 3 out of 5 times in the early seventies, despite having a much smaller population and sometimes finishing lower in the table. So the journalist is wrong.
The north east is a hot bed of empty trophy cabinets.
Nothing has changed much since 1975! Still no league wins for Newcastle, Sunderland or Boro. 😢 Could be having exactly the same same conversation today.
The writers are the living embodiment of why their arguments is flawed. Passion doesn't win trophies, highlighting passion as a reason why clubs win trophies is wrong. And self-praise is no recommendation
Anyone interested in this time and how far behind British thinking and professionalism was, should read, Soccer Coaching: The European Way (1980). The chapter by RInus Michels is devastating.
Brilliant. U would never see this now.
Cloughie brilliant as ever…how can you argue with me when you don’t know what I’m going to say 😂
God that was good. I actually get a little bit of Bisping when I hear him verbally duke it out.
Geordies are still banging on about passion, best fans blah blah blah 50 years on
Coz nothing has changed 😂😂 still the best fans evn tho we've won't nowt
Clough kept his powder dry till the end masterfull
He started the argument then sat back then hit them again.
They used the term soccer repeatedly in this video. Why aren’t people complaining like when Americans call the sport soccer?
How Brian clough was never given the England job is an absolute sin. One of the best, if not the best, English manager.
No such thing as good reporters or presenters these days. Not on Talkshite Sky or anywhere else.
George House, Doug Wetherall and John Gibson. What a line-up.
A little different to the tripe they serve up on Sky Sports, nobody is talking over each other, they are listening to one another. Nobody is shouting at each other and laughing like they are about to lay an egg!
When we had proper football journalism. Bring back the day. Met Clough a number of times. A great man!
I remember when Bryan Robson joined Boro in the 90s Doug Weatherall saying Middlesbrough was more of a Rugby town than a Soccer one. He knew nothing about Boro or our Football history. Stand up Brian Clough.
He also said Boro would never win anything. A few years later they won the League Cup (2004), and are the only North East club to win a trophy in the last 50 years.
He was moron.
No Boro reporter on this panel. Still the same.
@@davidmax119ikr but at least we got a dig in towards the start as acc being able to play football pahah
Doug was referring to Leeds as a Rugby town.
48 years on, still no title for the North East.
Big in their own minds, ironically the foreign investment from the middle east might change it. But then you have the argument are such clubs still clubs of 'the people" then.
And now they need the Saudi state to help them out 😂
@@nigefal In the last 25 years of so, football has just become a business. Very sad.
Amazing compared to North West.
If Brian Clough & Lawrie McMenemy found it wise to pair up as the England team management 1,2; there would be no doubt of a World Cup winning combination.
Yours faithfully, a total non Englander.
I remember back in the 80s on a Saturday afternoon the BBC regional news on after Grandstand would have Doug Weatherall on the phone giving the Newcastle match report along with a picture of him holding a landline handset... we've come a long way since!
In some ways, but in others we’ve gone backwards….no doubt
McMenemy was bang on as was Clough, the press always were arse lickers
Wish I could see more of this chat…….marvellous ❤
Even Laurie went up in my books.
BORO less passion thats a joke ever been to Ayresome park crazy wild place that Holgate was mad, Boro were getting 25 to 33 thousand at this pont 75 ish pluss from a club that didn't have Newcastle n Sunderland history, Newcastle 4 league titles 6 fa cups Sunderland 6 league title's 2 fa cups, Boro Zilch Tynn wear Gateshead love in
Love the 70's bang off this. ❤
The hair cuts and the clothes were truly ghastly in the1970s.
Gordon Lee was a bad manager,,, Everton he had a final and semi on a plate He blew it... CLOUGH WAS THE BEST he got 2 clubs to win championship
1:00 what was that Brian "Soccer" and repeated by Doug Weatherall. My godfather (Harry Sharratt) played for England at the 1956 Olympics in Melbourne, he always referred to it as Soccer.
Where the idea it was only toffs called it Soccer came from I have no idea.
Clough should have been England manager but only for the snobbish attitude of the FA who wanted a sycophant a "yes man" and clough was never going to be that
The newspaper reporters need to take of their rose tinted glasses, how can you hope to compete with two of footballs greatest sensible minds of English football.
Classic Clough. He's right. If Sunderland and Newcastle fans think they are more passionate than fans of other clubs they are mistaken. Only Middlesbrough have won a trophy since this was recorded. The N E isn't a hotbed. Liverpool and Manchester - to name just two - are hotbeds. Fans of non-league clubs can also be incredibly passionate.
Mutton chops.
liverpool fan here. when united went down they played to full grounds home and away, northwest home of football. liverpool and everton are in the same city . sunderland and newcastle are two dfferent citys
Exactly. Newcastle are one of the largest cities in England, and its a one-club city so doesn't share its support with any other club. If they had another pro club in their city, like Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester has, their support would reach nowhere near 52K at home. Be lucky to get 25K (which is what they used to get back in the 70's and 80s by the way).
@@dentara-rast Newcastle is actually a fairly small city compared to most major ones (it's 12th, behind the likes of Nottingham, Coventry, Leicester, Bristol and Leeds). Is Leeds a 2 club city? Is Bristol? Or Leeds?
@@donmongoose But most of those cities you mentioned have other clubs/towns nearby. Newcastle only has one club nearby, Sunderland. I think the point being made is they have all of Tyneside, Northumberland, and parts of county Durham as their catchment area that no one else taps into, unlike the midlands, northwest, and London clubs do. They're a one-club city who geographically don't share their catchment with anyone else.
@@doggiedaydiaries I think you're doing Bylth Spartans and Whitley Bay warriors an injustice with that comment lol Also most people south of Gateshead are either Mackems or Smoggie fans, with Sunderland only being 10 miles away from Newcastle.
Those two puppets .. red shirt and steve marriots pull though..... are why north east football is crap 😂😂😅.....EVEN 50YRS LATER
And they used the word "Soccer" . . .
Interesting that they were using the words Soccer n Football interchangeably.
I was interested by Brian Clough's observation on the passion of Derby County supporters and the age demographic of them. At the time, 13,000 season tickets (I'm taking his "seats sold" comment to be that) was a huge number.
The managers were right. You can have 30, 40, 50 thousand crowds and talk about football 7 days a week, but if the clubs win nothing it's not a hotbed of football.
Middlesbrough won the League Cup in 2004.
Back in the big time.
@@octaviussludberry9016
Quality 😂
Now when I hear Cloughie's voice, I instantly see the face of Mark Crossley 🙂
The Sunderland team of season 1935-1936 remain the last team from the North East to win the top division tittle.
Leeds.
@@GeokinkladzeNorth East? Nah, not Leeds.
@@GeokinkladzeLeeds is West Yorkshire mate 😂
@@dannynicholson6014 yeah and Manchester is in greater Manchester. So?
@@Geokinkladze The first comment was “the last team to win the title in the NORTH EAST”. Leeds is NOT in the North East. It’s at least a hundred miles away from Newcastle. Are you feeling alright?
When Brian talks, the best thing for everyone is to shut up and listen ❤
Nufc fans are the best in england
Still exploiting their huge supporter base 48 years later 🤯
villa averaged 32 k 3rd division 1972 28k 71, 75 76 when this was recorded Villa had 3rd highest gatet 38 k that season 37k season after 76 77
Villa packed away grounds also that year of '72, the attendances were incredible.
Villa are often overlooked when it comes to the big clubs, they should be one of the "big 6", they're certainly bigger than Tottenham!
@@walesdad yes
@@RichardM-kv4uu yes
Great chat n video what great channel Love the football stuff all sorts pop up
Middlesbrough ar the only North East Club to win a trophy since this was broadcast nearly 50 years ago.
We weren’t represented by the press back then either. Where was Cliff Mitchell? At least we’ve made them take their blinkers off now😬
@@garycoates4603
And how these so called reporters writhed in agony in later years when faced with the talent of untypical Boro
Middlesbrough aren't even in the North East...their just a small club in Yorkshire
North East football gold❤
Laurie mc ...👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Told it
Love they use the word soccer.
The fact that Clough was never offered a job in the north east explains why there is a trophy drought up there. Terrible recruitment.
Nearly fifty years on, and the debate could be the same. Middlesbrough know exactly what they are and are loved by the people of the area for just that. Sunderland and Newcastle live in delusional bubble and believe that they are big clubs when its almost a definition that big clubs win trophies. Yes those two attract big crowds in comparison to many others, but the majority of those that attend have never seen their club lift a trophy. Newcastle under Ashley treated their fan-base like idiots and got away with it. Sunderland perhaps less so. I for one can't understand how two clubs can, with a clean conscience, continue to exploit their average fan by failing to deliver.
straight talking men. end of!
Nice wardrobe from the guy on the left at 1:50 😁 ... (yeah, I know it was the 70's..)
Hot bed of sausage rolls more like.
Cloughie great as always, but Lawrie Mac is tremendous here as well. Great stuff KRO
Brilliant footage, thank you for posting. Fascinating discussion
15:17 this is classic Clough. Brilliant.
The problem with Newcastle is yes the supporters have been very passionate despite not winning cups on a regular basis since the 1950’s but during most of these lean years they’ve been used and abused by past Newcastle boards or owners. Ashley was the latest but McKeag and Co were no better the supporters objected but never protested. They might have protested verbally but they still showed up at the ground and accepted dross and poor facilities .
Now it's a despotic country that runs newcastle
Now Newcastle got best owners in football.
@@AreJayCeeand we love it 🇸🇦💸💸💸💸💸💸
Did Brian Clough just say 'soccer'???
Cloughie dismantled the insular and myopic Weatherall and Gibson in the last 2 minutes of this clip.
Dear old Lawrie “it’s lager man and then they take the alcohol oot Barbican it’s great man” sorry it wasn’t. Only now 45 years later are get decent alcohol lager, a bit like north east football with Newcastle 😂
John Gibson looking like the 70s personified.
Jumpers for goalposts....
Funny how it’s 1975 and they’re calling it both soccer and football. Yet somehow, soccer is an “American” term
I think it's the audacity of calling gridiron football that winds people up. It would be like calling our sport "handball" because the keeper uses his hands occasionally.
@jaredc1987 Yes, a completely uncontroversial term in the 70s, which was widespreadly used in the UK and Ireland without any American connotations.
Cloughie telling it as it is. Remember this and just found it it. A joy to watch.
Clough: what a guy...
My only regret in life is that Clough didn’t manage Sunderland or England
5 decades on, nothing has changed.
There have only a few managers capable of raising these clubs up cloughe is perfect example