FV4202 - Tank Design & Theory
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- A look at the FV4202 technology test bed , its background and development, how it came to be and why, as part of the fv4201 chieftain development story including the medium gun tank.
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Sources: Vickers files.
Bovington. Kew.
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#FV4202 #FV4201 #FVRDE #PostWar #MilitaryVehicles #Tank #experimental #concept #BritishTank. #WorldOfTanks #Comet #Chieftain
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I love seeing everything that resulted as the NATO reaction to the IS-3
And after all that worry and panic driven tank development it turns out the IS3 isn’t even that good.
@@jk844100 it's actually not that bad either
So:
Royal Ordinance L7 105mm gun and tanks mounting it (although technically it was design to counter T-54's)
FV201 Conqueror
FV4202 40-ton Centurion
M103 Heavy Tank
FV4005
Swingfire missiles?
Which else am I missing?
@@ADudOverTheFence1 Probably there's so much more to that we don't know of / never will know.
As it is: the L11 gun was the final nail in the coffin of IS-3 & T-10's relevance, as well as the weapon that put paid to the confusing plethora of tank guns we'd had prior.
Had the Chieftain's engine been as much of a winner as her teeth were sharp... well the MBT world would be very different.
@@ADudOverTheFence1 Malkara Missile, basically an FV4005 round with a rocket motor and fins
"I've spoken to the Israelis and they say this is bollocks!"
This is fun it's like a David Fletcher in training
Actually , what he said was ,..''after speaking to several sources who worked there and are very familiar with the collection,... they have stated that this is Bollocks'' ,..
This is somewhat disingenuous in my opinion. While he tries to give the impression that he has ''de-bunked'' the ''myth'' entirely, the reality , I suspect, is that all he has really done is speak to the curators of the Israeli museum or collection. The most they could possibly have done is stated that they weren't aware of such a vehicle ever having turned up in Israel. Not the same thing at all.
More than anything else it seems to be an excuse to use the expletive in relation to David fletcher, a man with whom he appears to take some issue.
"This is Bollocks",made me laugh out loud,brilliant.Toodle Pip!!!!"
I really like the effectiveness of the armor on this one.
Interesting to see the 'cleft' turret design so early on in British designs. Reminiscent of the turrets used in the Swedish UDES vehicles. I wonder if this idea was adopted by any other countries? Great video - thanks for your work!
The cleft/bifurcated turret does seem like an interesting compromise to try and cover the difficulties in oscillating turrets with sealing against NBC attack and a way to try and avoid the limited elevation issue by minimizing the parts of the turret actually moving. The Loader looks like he'd have a hell of a time putting shells into the breach through that hatch, I can't actually tell if it's supposed to be through a hollow trunnion or a separate hatch. Either way, two-part ammunition would be a must and even then it's not likely to be a fast reload.
It's a bad idea really; as the armour protection layout & CBRN protection would be a nightmare.
Tanks like Challenger I & II by contrast have a very straightforward frontal profile quite deliberately; in-part because it makes the job of armouring much easier.
Just found your channel, love the quality of your research. Will definitely be following…
Welcome aboard!
Great research! Thanks for this.
I would love to see you make a video about the American equivalent (imo) for this thing: the T95 medium tanks
if i ever gat back to the US il see what i can do :)
@@armouredarchives8867 Thanks for considering and keep up the phenomenal contents, I really really really love it👍
The table at 5:05 is interesting. Seems we haven't learnt any lessons here when it comes to modern tank's ie: challenger 3. It clearly shows that a separate case or bag charge out performs single piece ammunition. Obviously these are older ammo types, but it would be interesting if there's any modern data for the 120mm or late variant challenger 1 data.
I doubt you could get access to chally 2 data though as it would still be secret.
As a former crewman most of the stuff you see online is inaccurate.
*Thanks for sharing this vid. Liked & subcribed!*
A first class channel
10:15 ah yes, I can hear the frustration of somebody who is interested in the weird little prototypes that are often neglected or hidden away by museums
It's important to remember that the tank museum is underfunded and understaffed, especially considering the size of the collection. These prototypes aren't actually their most important vehicles, either. Criticizing the Tank museum for neglecting what is , after all, a fairly obscure prototype, is the easy part.
@@andrewwoodhead3141 I am well aware, I've actually had brief discussions with Jonathan Ferguson (of Royal Armouries fame) about this exact subject in regard to the EM-2. I've also been to the royal armouries to look at the EM-2 (*among others), because they aren't doing it to neglect or hide these guns (I misspoke somewhat) on their end, but rather because most people aren't really interested so there would be no point. It is that which I am frustrated with, not the museums themselves.
I've even run into this in my own work place where there is a lack of ability or proper service to preserve these things.
I'm not criticising them rather than sympathising with them, I understand it's easy to be frustrated at the museums without understanding their reasoning. My sympathy is that (in my opinion) museums often have to focus on widely known areas of history rather than the little niche bits that enthusiasts are into.
My criticism is more at the lack of public interest in these things and the fact that modern museums must be tailored to the "general audience" who largely want to see the same things repeated again and again, largely with basic information. I know nobody is going to go to a museum and read a sign of 5000 words about some obscure prototype, that's my exact issue. I'm frustrated that people don't because it leads to the neglect of objects like this tank.
@@andrewwoodhead3141 And also I want to point out in regard to the underfunding issue:
I take HUGE issue with the government underfunding museums and not giving them the adequate means to display collections, one of my pet peeves with British national government is that they seem to give not a single toss to preserving items of historical importance unless it's something that nets them a nice big PR bonus.
But don't get me started on that, because I can write you war and peace complaining about it.
@@Kav. Well, I am certainly not going to disagree with you about the Government failing to properly fund museums, that's for sure. They seem to have money to burn when it comes to all sorts of stupidities., yet, somehow , preserving history comes last in the line of Government responsibilities,..... It's very , very sad.
I think that the worst effect of this underfunding is yet to come, namely the commercialization of the entire collection and , by extension , a significant part of British National history. Not that anyone seems to care about THAT anymore. We are only now starting to see the tip of that particular iceberg IMO. Again , very sad.
In regards to your frustration with people,... that is something else. That's a little bit to do with you though. You can't expect other people to share your interests, or you can and you can be perpetually disappointed.
I mean , I don't know about you , but there plenty of stuff that I'd struggle to be show interest in. It's just a fact of life.
The Public wants to hear the story of WW1 and the Rhomboid tank, WW2 and the Tiger tank and the Sherman tank and so on,.... they want to see some big arsed tanks ploughing around , they want the kids to have a great day out ,..then they want to go home, enjoy Sunday diner, put the kids to bed , go to sleep themselves , and get back to work nice and fresh on Monday morning. You get the picture. That's just the way it is.
@@Kav. P.S. I remember the EM-2 from when I was in the Signals. They took us around to the Museum . I can't even remember when , TBH. Just lots and lots of rare as hens-teeth toys.
But I also remember the weapons destruction plant at Oblic and all the rare stuff we crushed and melted.
Love the content of your channel mate, as a new sub i am liking going through your crop of videos. Cheers
thansk, its a new channel so still growing but hopefully it will work out
Hi Ed, thanks for the video on this! I seem to remember (I think the one pictured without the gun) being parked up the road, from where I lived at the time, in the REME training ground. Was quite young at the time and always thought it was a chieftain, but after Mr Fletcher mentioning it being here in his tank chat and seeing that picture I was excited to think I had walked past such an interesting beast without knowing it at the time! Any confirmation that it was in the REME at Bordon?
There have been a couple of other training hulks left in the same area including a challenger 1 driver training vehicle.
Cheers
yup was one in the muddy bit of bordon dug in, they had a few 4201s too and a CR1 driver trainer hulk as well
@@armouredarchives8867 I think Fletcher said parts of it were used on the one at Bovington? Was never sure if this made sense but I guess I wouldn’t know aha. 🙂
Also Challenger gun tank minus its turret and a Shir prototype.
great video
and this is my favourite tank in war thunder. for me it just works. i can only fantasize what it would be as a lighter medium support tank alongside the chieftain
me too, pisses me off the 'comet' reverse though... :-/
@@alan-sk7ky nice. Tho i must agree on the reverse
Have you done a vid on the Churchill Mk.3/75mm? History of the 75mm. Cheers!
Very interesting, thank you - subbed
Thanks for the sub!
I kind of want a 1/35 scale model kit of the FV4202 lol, was the first tank I got in WoT Blitz (altho now I play the PC one)
Is that an Excelsior in the background at 10:55?
it is indeed
"with an obsession with defeating the fat slow kid" gotta love it!!!
Can you please talk about the British hesh rockets?
Mainly malkara and orange william
fv4010 SOON :)
Futuristic lookin boi
Any info on the top speed and max reverse speed of the FV4202 ?
alas none i could find
I recently heard the story from an a retired tanker working for the German Tank Museum on how back in the day his unit obliterated a Leopard 2 prototype hull on a shooting exercise one day by making it the target for his entire unit. An occurance which came about because as he put it, two simpel minded people came together. The guy send to get a new hard target and the guy keeping watch of the vehicle park 😀 what I want to say by this is, that sometimes strage things can happen to this kind of vehicle
oih no doubt, i mean the tank musuem at bovington sent a lot of prototypes down to the ranges after beign given them as they were in their eyes not interesting or german enough to pull in visitors
@@armouredarchives8867 "not German enough"That,ll be be the septic wehraboos then
@@armouredarchives8867 Wow ! That is a harsh criticism ! IMO the Bovington collection is pretty well balanced. It's worth pointing out, I think, that the Tank museum is underfunded and understaffed , especially considering the size of the collection.
I note that in this presentation you seem angry or upset that the museum has failed to look after this particular prototype to your satisfaction. Well, the harsh reality is that , however interesting this prototype, or testbed , is to you , it is not their most important piece.
Rather than jumping on the ''Wehraboo'' band wagon and making easy criticism , might it not be more productive to do something about it ? if that is how you feel ? ,... maybe raise millions of pounds and set about restoring the thing yourself ?
@@andrewwoodhead3141 its not underfunded at all it makes far more than most and it has plenty of staff, infact it has more in marketing and media than it does in workshops. the simple truth is they were presented this in good condition and have neglected it since day 1 and it has slowly fallen apart. a huge amount of money goes into restoring tiger and now tiger 2, which does bring people in, but the money is then invested back into tigers. - this is the home of british armour, officaly, and many pieces of our ownhistory have been neglected for the german stuff. its not a critique of bovvy as a whole as there are some amazing staff, all of whom share similar concerns about poor managment a the top
@@armouredarchives8867 I see. So, here's the thing. The Bovington tank museum is there to look after a bit of history . History is a story. Our story , yes, and the story of the tank. It is not ''the home of British armor'', it is a British armoured museum.
Now, if they could look after every piece that would be Wonderfull. It would be great if they could have an entire tank divisions worth of tanks in rolling order, every prototype ever made , every piece they ever got. But , reality is that this is not possible.
So they have to concentrate on the machines that tell a story.
Bluntly , while I understand that FV 4202 is terrifically interesting to you , and of interest to me , the reality is that no ones Grandfather ever rolled up a beach in Normandy or did his national service in a FV 4202.
And I do understand your frustration. But , here is the bluntest truth . A functional testbed like FV 4202 is a niche interest . A niche in a niche. It isn't actually even a big part of the story. From a development stand point , yes, something like that tells the story of the thinking that went into it, the politics , the technology . But it never went to war, no one ever died in one,... and war is the main story here, don't forget that.
Now, ... the German part of the museums display isn't overly large. IMO. They have one of each of the main types of Panzers, a few variants , armoured cars and a half track.
Germany did play some small part in the war , you know. I'm sure that you must understand the relevance on displaying some enemy equipment. Otherwise it would just be a display of British and American tanks in glorious isolation , without context at all.
I mean , if the display was , like , dozens and dozens of German tanks , then , yes, I would agree with you. That would be suspicious.But , really, I don't think the German display is over the top at all.
I do not believe that they are restoring their tiger 2 to running order. I know there's one somewhere being restored , but that's not in the Uk. Are you sure ? Seems unlikely..
Which just leaves Tiger 131. Ok, so I think this is really what you are angry about.
Here's the thing. Tiger 131 is a British war trophy. It's the only one running and it's ours. It's a big old middle finger to the Hun , even now. And don't think they don't know it.
It's also a big part of our national story and a big part of out own tanks national story.
People, the public , remain fascinated with it because their own Grandfathers were fascinated with it. It was a big deal back then and that's why it remains a big deal now.
One day, as time passes, that will change. But, for now , it's a big pull.
Personally , I think it's quite fair that resources are spent of restoring Tiger 131, rather than , say, an obscure test bed of little public interest outside of a very niche audience.
I like fv4202 design
hm i wish you also did artillery, ed - just been looking at green mace - an interesting piece of metal
il crack on with that at some point, but first as all my stuff, il have to go archive hunting. cos the interwebs is 90% bullshit and 10% cats.
What was the hull armour like? It looks more heavily sloped but is it the same thickness as the centurion?
vgery thin, its just enough to give stuctural intergrity and test space and volume, never designed to fighth as a combat vehicle
@@armouredarchives8867 I'd have though if you're testing space, a somewhat representative plate thickness would be helpful.
8:16 David Fletcher gettin called out
Liked, shared, and subscribed.
Awesome thank you!
FV4202, often known as the forty ton Centurion.
That's me :)
Not sure if I'm imagining it, but isn't there an FV4202 at the Norfolk Tank museum?
noo, they have a cheiftain, annd avre, and the hhull of what was one of SIDS siblings, but no 4202
Been there - first place I’ve been to where you were encouraged to climb in! Also a good selection of small arms.
i'm spartacus! and i've got the missing tank ;)
I have absolutely zero idea why this thing is ahead of the Centurion in War Thunder Mobile.
Does anyone know why the west seemed so obsessed with the IS-3? Was it their experience with panthers and tigers and just assumed tanks would just keep getting heavier or just a failure to appreciate the limitations of heavy tanks until after the war?
The IS-3 on paper was a good vehicle, sure its internal layout's terrible and its got a limited ammo storage, but a 122mm gun, with well angled, thick armour on a low, comparatively light and fast platform basically looked at anything in the WAllied inventory and went "Oh look you think you're people." considering that when it first appeared, the West still had large numbers of Comets, and Shermans and they simply had nothing comparable. It was probably seen as a major paradime shift and I don't doubt the Allies were worried that the Soviets were going to spam them like they had the T34.
I was shown very publically on the Russian Berlin victory parade and was a political issue while T-54s were pretty secretive in the 50s.
It was mahoosive! Made anything the west had look like "Little Willy".If only we had known it was a lemon!!!
Mmmm 0:45 tog 2 in background
thats A33 hiding there :)
@@armouredarchives8867 That's a TOG larva
3:20 "Space for gun control equipment"
[Gavin Newsom loosens his collar]
She’s still my favorite tank of all time. I don’t care if the tank itself was only designed as a prototype. I happily play one in world of tanks and average about 2,000 damage a battle.
For the real FV4202, I really do hope Bovington decides to restore it because the design eventually led to the Chieftain. In that regard, it is an important tank. The Chieftain was a very successful tank and it may have not been possible; if it wasn’t for FV4202’s design.