#6 Tesla Silicon // Fast Charge is on the Way ⏩🔋 // Deep Dive
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Tesla Silicon means Fast Charge is on the Way! This is part six of the Lithium Mine to Battery Line Series to break down and understand what was unveiled at Tesla Battery Day. The best kept secret of Battery Day was that Tesla Silicon opens the door to a faster charge rate. Today we’re going to do a deep dive on what limits battery charge rates, how Tesla Silicon changes the equation, and what charge rate we might expect from Tesla vehicles in the future.
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Timeline
0:00 Introduction
1:02 Drew's Comment
2:51 Celina's Comment
4:40 4680 Charge Rate
5:38 Supercharger Bottleneck
8:32 Lithium Plating Explained
9:16 Graphite Animation
11:35 Lithium Plating Animation
12:24 Why Silicon is the Correct Material
14:45 Silicon Animation
15:11 Charge Rate Taper
15:36 Summary
#BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said 
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HPQ Silicon long and strong let's goooo!
HPQ next! :D
Ever heard of HPQ Silicon?
Next video
@@thelimitingfactor Wow! You really are on top of things, when's the next video?
That's great Jordan, can't wait to hear your take on this technology. I'd suggest you also checkout Pyrogenesis a little since it's them doing the plasma engineering work for HPQ Silicon. They also have a waste management solution in the US Navy carriers and just received the Solar impulse efficient solution label for their high powered plasma torch to replace diesel burners in metallurgical industries. Many ghg reduction solutions under one roof. Keep up the good work, your videos are the best.
@@thelimitingfactor no way that's great news!
@@thelimitingfactor When is next video? HPQ?
JG! I watch ALL the TeslaTubers, and you're content is still my favorite!
Very nice! I'm going to rewatch this one! Kind of puts yesterday's solid state breakthrough into perspective!
These presentations are head and shoulders above just about any other Tesla commentator. The level of technical and strategic understanding and the ability to convey that understanding to lay people is really invaluable and rare. Thanks!
🤜🤛🔥
Wow you‘re crushing it. Thanks for all your work.
Yes! Finally!! Thanks again for the updates! Gonna have to watch this one a few time the coming days!
HPQ Silicon is the leading edge of nanosilicons
Yes....but will Tesla use nano silicon? It doesn't look like it. Covered in the next video.
@@thelimitingfactor
Actually Elon said that using nano right now would be to expensive. But all that is about to change thanks to HPQ silicon , stay tuned.
@@saint2709 hmmmmm, when did he say this? That could be helpful information!
Hpq released they could do spherical silicon particles from nanosize up to 5 Microns (and even carbon coat them in the same process if required).
@@thelimitingfactor here you go start at the 2:30:00 mark. ruclips.net/video/iU-poglarHc/видео.html
Animations were super-helpful in visualizing the ion gradient. Keep up the awesome work!
This is great! When Drew made that statement on the earnings call I saved that bit in my head for later google search, I figured you'd make a video too. As expected this video is much more informative that my google searches were. Thanks!
The opening music always fits so well with Jordan’s voice.
Man your killing it with the animations and the clear concise info. 200k+ subs within a year and you can quote me on that!
You are the best at explaining this stuff. Thank you so much.
Thank you Jordan, another great video.
Another great video!
This is the one I was waiting for!
Your videos are simply superb! Thank you so much for another terrific and informative program!
Everytime feels like waiting for ages for the new insights videos
I continue to be impressed by the quality of your presentations.
I got really into battery research about 2 years ago and it took me so long and reading through hundreds of papers to understand the basics of Li ion batteries and you basically cover everything you need to know in a few videos so clear and easy to understand. You have an incredible talent for this. Thanks.
Thanks Ferris! 🤜🤛
Amazing video, thanks for posting it... you are an amazing teacher, and the quality of your videos show how much effort you put into them. Well done, sir.
Thanks Jose! Glad to hear it 🙂
Great video, thank you!
Thank you Jordan for the incredible and fascinating video series 👍👍👍 battery day was really just the surface of a gigantic project. Elon and Drew have been great on just telling "a cost reduction story", hiding at the same the potential new user experience and new business field.
Great video. 👍
Thanks for sharing.
Brilliant synthesis of information about how charging actually works, explaining why the charge voltage control is so important. I'd never understood that properly despite years of taking an interest in batteries. Very good work.
Thanks for the support! I consulted some of the best researchers on the field on this one. Some of the physics here will be new even to some battery PHDs.
This was such a great video! I finally understand lithium plating!!
But now we (all) have to apply that knowledge to the QS cell, which *uses* that plating to it's advantage! 😵
The Limiting Factor's Battery Day deep-dive presentations are among the top-3 tech content on youtube. Deep thank you to Jordan for his superb work and presentation. RUclips gem.
Hey Tim! You're most welcome, I appreciate the support!
Thank you!
Awesome video. 👏
Thanks bro!
The animation though 🤯🤤🤩
Thank you
highest of quality content right here gents
Finally catching up to these videos. Free battery university!
What I take from this; the future is brighter than I had expected!
Jordan, great video.
The V3 charger is made of two parts:
The cabinet provides 1000 kw dc.
The stall supports up to 450 kw ((my guess).
The current 250kw is the car limit, not the charger!!!
I've gained something from this video. Thank you sir.
Glad to hear it! Glad to be of service.
Please make or be a part of massive online courses.
Maybe together with Shirley Meng!
You skills of visualizing this subject is clearly fantastic!
But more importantly can inspire others to learn this subject on a deep level!
The world needs more battery engineers and chemists that understand this!
To help the world transition to renewable energy. This transition is clearly just started it is going to be a long marathon!
Can you make a video on how you make your videos? :) They're great. This was great.
At some point yes! It will be a while though, 🙂
Not just the charger (limiting factor).
The charging CABLE must be manageable.
Touche!
Robots or maybe wireless?
They just need to use lemon batteries
@@1janik Is that like the famous potato battery? 😜
@@737smartin haha yes
Thanks.
hpq silicon to the moon
This knowledge makes my brain feel energized
I was curious, so on my last road trip I checked my average stop time. It was 14 minutes with an ICE car. Actually using the pump, paying, then going to the rest room and paying for a quick snack was 12 on the short end, 16 when I had to wait once. So a 15 minute stop, where I can plug in and not baby the car waiting for the pump to finish is perfect. Tesla will be there in the next 2 years is my guess with 350KW charging.
This is the shit! thank you.
That's a fascinating insight, even though it's over my head.
Really fast charging is ideal, but it's not absolutely necessary when you can get a significant top up in say five to ten minutes. Rapid charging is only important for long journeys, and a ten minute stop is fine for using service facilities, even if you intend to quickly move on.
Great Work!! Would be interesting to hear your opinion on the latest Solid-State Battery news or possible 'breakthroughs' both from Quantumscape and now today from Toyota and whether these could really compete with Tesla's new 4680 Battery Tech both from a distance & charging rate perspective but also from a mass production limitations perspective! Cheers
Nice Presentation! A comparison with the QuantumScape design and the Evolution of the Tesla battery would be fascinating! Is the QuantumScape battery better? If so - why?
Wow Jordan! This one is just fantastic. Silicon solves so many problems. Evidently the expansion issues surrounding silicon are well worth solving. The implications are even more mind boggling. The super chargers start to become a massive moat. It's not as though they weren't to start with. It's impossible to see where the competition can go. Even with Tesla batteries, Tesla's full ecosystem from day one leaves them high and dry. Edit: typo
Excellent explanation for layman academics.
JG All the way! Each supercharger cabinet manages 1MW of energy and I expect they'll be feeding that much to the semi. Hopefully we'll see high than 350 charge rates in cars even though Jerome said they might be looking at that level for cars.
JG=Jordan Giesige Not Jerome Guillen lol
If i remember correctly there was a Tesla Daily video by Rob Maurer that suggested, that the V3 superchargers are actually able to output much more than 250kW!
Mate, how do you investigate this ? You have an incredible way of absorbing and presenting information, I need to learn this, please help me out, cheers !
At some point, I want to do a video explaining my process... inasmuch as there is one
Rob Maurer once had a Tesla daily episode discussing what Superchatger v3 is capable of. If I remember well, he provided good evidence that v3 is capable of much more than 250kW. I'm gonna try to find the episode.
I (still) wonder if they'll follow the "KISS" principle (aka "the best part is no part") and stick with a standard (V3 "ish") unit, but on the larger vehicles use either one, or two each side? A drive through bay, split ports, and on the Semi, s similar arrangement to that seen on the prototypes, with two charger cables, into one plug, into the vehicle?
4 V3's would give the Megacharge requirement(?)
There's also the weaknes of a cable to vehicle connection point to consider as the power levels rise.
My brain hurts. But I feel smarter...I think. Thanks for the amazing content
It makes most sense for them to not tell anyone about this and just roll it out as it comes along.
Love the content, Jordan! Great work! This may have been discussed before, but do you see Tesla integrating some of these 4680 advances into their 2170 or 1865 cells, such as the tabless design, DBE, etc. and how these advances would improve the costs of those batteries as well? Thanks.
Probably in a future video
I wish you talked more about Sila Nanotechnologies. They are clearly the most mature silicon anode company in North America
Why? It's a video about Tesla 🤦🏻♂️. There are literally dozens of companies working on Si anode tech. Sila is just one of many. They are the most well advertised, but may not be the 'most mature' or 'best.'
@@thelimitingfactor Exactly, your channel is pretty Tesla heavy. I meant we need more non-Tesla videos too. Sure, any video with Tesla in the name will get more clicks from the Elon fanbois. And that's good for your channel, I get it. Tesla isn't the only EV company driving innovation in batteries. BMW and Daimler are also onto something, and that's where companies like Sila deserve some attention. Just some honest feedback from a regular viewer. Your channel is great.
Well done Jordan, another great piece of research.
Wow this is very good research and presentation.
Thank you.
I will be waiting 5 years to purchase either a used Model Y in the UK or buying a new less than 30k eletric car.
It pays to wait and allow the early adopters and BETA testers to sink their money and scale into the electric vehicles.
Thumbs up. Some effort you put into your youtube content!!
I need the ELI5 version of this video...
The effect of tabless batteries to charging speed is probably going to be much more dramatic than people realize.
Imagine each layer of the role being charged at the same time with a larger current.
Wow insanely good explanation! The graphics are awesome
Pasan Perera The plating will dissolve but it will be uneven this is why dendrites form the plating and dissolution process is not evenly distributed.
@@kazedcat Right that makes sense, thanks, mate :)
Please do a video on Atlis Motor Vehicles. Their founder and CEO has done some videos explaining their approach to getting their truck to fully charge in less than 15 min
I'm recalling that the mode of engineering being being expressed here was once dubbed exploratory engineering by Eric Drexler. It has to do with mathematically exploring The possible design space using what's known about physical law, however in this case in relation to what's presently known about the firm's manufacturing capabilities.
I'm certain that a lot more could be said about this and that I'm not going to be saying it right now!
Bjorn Nyland notes 2021 model 3 warming up the battery to about 40 degrees C prior to scheduled super charging.
I told Mitchell that I saw you for the first time on his show. With that smooth-ass voice of yours I thought for sure you were gonna look like Morgan Freeman. Since then I have gone on 2 first dates and both times I played your videos in the background just to pre-soak these poor girls before their inevitable goodnight kiss. Thank you, my Brother!
😂😂😂 Glad to be of service! Come one, come all!
@@thelimitingfactor Thank you Brother, I am glad you get my humor. I want to thank you so much for your videos, I am a loyal Fan!
Quantumscape turns the plating problem into a benefit by using it to form the metallic lithium anode. Will be interesting to see how that develops in the future. We'll see results from Tesla sooner so QS will likely be playing catch up.
What about 2 charge ports - plug in 2 x V3 for 500kW (700 with V4s?)
Hi Jordan,
Strange enough!, the video which is really matter and highly educational has way less interest than what its deserved. Amazing video.
I believe Tesla Easter Egg'd this at Battery Day on the slide at 1:26 . They show the tabless cell having only a slightly increased charge time when increased from 21 to 46mm diameter. If true, they neglected to mention on that slide that the 4680 cell has about 6 times the capacity as a 2170. 6 times the charge in about 120% of the time (estimated without a scale on the slide). Based on that idea 4680 packs should charge significantly faster, only limited by supercharger output. Theoretically up to 5x times faster, practically around 2x. Also, if true and they can charge faster, maybe discharge rates are higher allowing for even better performance possibilities in short bursts.
Great animations! where are these from?
Animator from Russia I hired through Upwork
@@thelimitingfactor it’s fantastic work. Really helps visualise the cell. Great job! I need to hire you as a consultant at my place 🤩
I would be more than happy if Model S had around 120kWh pack with new 4680 cells and was charging at 250kW all the way to 80% at flat curve. This would mean 25 min break for another 500km drive.
How about having two individual battery, and charge individually? So the charging time is cut by 1/2, particularly useful in semi trucks.
Outstanding video Jordan....thank you. Huge upside for EV mining companies including Graphite. I know you have talked about Talga...for US market, Nouveu Monde will be first to market, but is Graphite One on your radar? Largest US deposit with a pea of $1bil, 40 year mine life and high quality graphene....check it out...will be a huge player in the graphite market. PFS was delayed from Q2 last year due to covid, otherwise this would be more centre stage now, vs under the radar
Seems like a natural way to go is 2x higher voltage batteripacks that will allow 2x the charge rate at the same maximum current rating. So a V3 supercharger could provide 500kW charge rate.
I wonder if a battery swap might be a more workable solution for the Tesla Semi?
Just ran into your channel, very scientific explanation. However, I would like to ask two questions:
1. Silicon would cause significant volume change of the anode material during charge and discharge. This change would breakdown the SEI causing faster degradation. How could we solve that? Tesla silicon mentioned in the battery day video had a speak of special polymer bonding. However, it is rather limited.
2. Silicon anode is more unstable at high SOC. This means more energy would released during a TP event. How could we address that problem.
Apologize for my questions. As a person working in this field, just would like to learn more.
Check out my Silicon Deep Dive video with the green thumbnail. It came out a video or two before this one.
As for 2.) TEsla has apparently designed further safety measures to reduce thermal propogation in the 4680 pack.
There's something so distinguishing about your voice, man. The clarity and tone makes the subject matter feel almost eerie lol
😆
I get the,
Like we're teaching a kid quantum physics, very slowly and we have to make sure he understands it, otherwise the world ends vibe.
Reminds me of the voice from the Canadian show on the discovery channel "How it's Made".
@@tomauto15 Lol, I get that a lot. I never even knew of that channel until someone made the comment. Regardless, I take it as a compliment. Thanks man!
Impressive work! Could have saved me hours of reading papers and reviews :D Not sure if you have the resources, but could you do a piece on how exactly Tesla wants to tackle the volume expansion of Si during alloying? They claim to use a Li-conducting polymer-coating to stabilze the SEI, but I honestly do not fully understand the approach. Lets for simplicity assume the polymer coating prevents the rapture of SEI that has formed around the Si particle. Nevertheless, the SEI also formed around the graphite particles. When Si expands during the next charge, the polymer coating to my understanding does not prevent the rapture of SEI that has formed around the graphite particles, because Si and graphite particles are simply to close together to prevent this. If it is the mysterious additional "elastic binder"that solves the issue, then you would need to add quite a lot of it, decreasing the amount of active material and hence energy density and increasing the amount of non-conducting material resulting in an increase in resistance.
Just found this: ruclips.net/video/YTW_Q63bEEY/видео.html
Maybe things clear up there :D Thats the problem if you watch stuff not chronologically
Looks like you found the right video, lol.
Hi Jordan, would it be possible to dump energy into onboard super capacitors who then charge the battery-pack?
Yeah for sure, but if it were worth the cost benefit, then someone would be doing it. I think they do this for some busses, but that's a different use case.
silicon's Li-ion conductivity totally tanks for higher charged states, inducing a lot of polarization losses. it could very well happen that the taper after 80% for SI-anodes is stronger than for the current graphite tech IMHO.
Business Magnet!
Kindly make a video on ambri liquid metal batteries. They are promising.
Did you watch Undecided today? He lays it out pretty well...there is also a comment from me that gives further reasons why it may never hit massive scale and remain relegated to niche applications. LFP is half the cost and is also very tolerant of heat.
Just because it'd be funny, consider making a quiz/test for the next video to see how many in the audience actually understand the contents of your deep dive videos.
lol, yeah, a lot of gray matter being cooked out there
Another Analogy is examining the electrostatic potential difference of a thunderstorm, long before the lightning strikes there is broad spread of potential difference that forms across a large region of volume and that gives rise to a lightning strike, charging a battery is kind of like a controlled lightning strike accept we seek to transfer amps instead of voltage. In a lightning strike voltage dictates the outcome, recharging a battery is the inverse correlation of that potential difference.
Great analogy!
A 4 C charge rate means if the cell is rated for 2 Amp hour capacity then it can be charged at a maximum rate of 8 Amps.
Average rate of 8 amps. Peak at the beginning will be higher
V3 superchargers are already capable of 350+ kW. They are limited now but according to the stickers on the cabinets they are much more capable that 250 kW.
Where does SALD electrode stand in all this? Please explain :-)
A properly designed super charger does not need a significant potential difference to transfer charge if the surface area of conductivity is large. Tabless electrode surface area must be considered as a function of charge induction.
1.21 mega-watts charger confirmed!
Supercharger capability will be a nominal function of the surface area with respect to tabless electrode design! I do not know what the co-efficient of surface area to charge potential that the new design facilitates. I believe the increase of that surface area relative to the pana cells is orders of magnitude greater. The conductive surface area relationship determines the potential for Amps or coulombs of charge to be transferred.
Jordan I think the v3 superchargers are capable of 600kwh but the chargers are limited to 250 I seem to remember seeing the tesla sticker on the v3 charger that shows its being limited to the CURRENT battery tech if I can find (RUclips video) the link I will post it. 😉🍻
teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-does-supercharger-v3-mean-for-existing-model-s-owners.137816/
It's in thus thread but I just googled tesla v3 supercharger specs and there's lots of pics of the specs of them. 😉
Point regarding the semi, most drivers would be okay with a 15 minute charge cycle however battery capacity would need to double in order for the semi to match over the road performance of the current Riggs. If you figure megawatts scale energy transfer for each "pump" and a typical truck stop charger size of 10 -15 units you're talking about a very substantial engineering challenge for both the truck stops and the grid.
I've been pondering since yesterday.
Why couldn't they (Tesla/ Panasonic) build a 4680 "can" production line at Nevada, take the new higher silicon, conventional material and insert it into the Tabless design?
Then, as the Maxwell system is proven in the new factories, they can (quickly!) replace the front end of that line, converting it to the high spec cell.
It would provide better production output, a further testbed for the 4680 format and a "hybrid" cell which should exhibit many of the performance properties of the eventual DBE cell, but using the proven electrode production method, which incidentally may benefit *more* from the Tabless system since it's more prone to heat throttling (?)
Woo
I heard about nanotech making a breakthrough on graphene production. I wonder that if someone improves enough or shows interesting results, that Tesla will aquire them.
@@turningpoint4238 Bruh...
ruclips.net/video/hzm5AMPFMqs/видео.html
@@turningpoint4238 There's a paper about it, DOI 10.1038/s41586-020-1938-0 -- It went over my head, but may have answers about quality. Maybe over time the process could be refined / improved... & even scaled up to produce larger sheets? idk