Trivia note: Lima was still busy building locomotives during WW2, so their M4A1 production occurred at a new plant built southwest of the locomotive plant. Said plant is still standing today, and is the only tank manufacturing plant remaining in the US, still producing M1 Abrams tanks today.
My Dad worked for the Lima Locomotive Works, or "the Loco" as it was referred to locally. By the time I could remember back to, thtey had already ceased production of locomotives, and were making their own line of Power equipment - Shovels and Cranes initially. (These were not designed by Clark) Clark designed mostly Road equipment, such as Front End Loaders, and blacktop pavers. As a boy, I got to enter the plant on Sunday's when my Dad went in to file reports on what he did - he was a service repair man for Lima - heavy duty warranty work!. The plant was no where near at capacity, but it did make large equipment that needed a large place to do it. It was amazing to see the heavy cranes and infrastructure all shut down for the weekend.
I went to college in Lima in the late 90's. I drove past the old work so many times before they pulled it down. it was a massive place! They actually had a large mural painted on a wall of some of their products. I wish I could of walked around inside but the buildings were crumbling.
The Baldwin-Lima merger reminds me of the Studebaker-Packard merger in the 50s. By that time, independent car makers like Studebaker and Packard saw the writing on the wall; Ford and General Motors were in an all out price war with Chrysler scooping up what customers were left. The only way they were going to compete with the big three was through merger. On paper, the merger of quirky bargain car maker Studebaker and prestige builder (once seen as the American peer of Rolls-Royce) Packard made sense, Studebaker providing a greater sales volume while Packard brought its prestigious reputation and build quality (BMW would do something similar when it bought the Mini nameplate). What actually happened is that because Studebaker's financial situation was actually worse than presented to Packard management prior to the merger, they couldn't maintain both companies' production facilities. The decision was made to favor the volume market and consolidate all production at Studebaker's inefficient facilities at South Bend and abandon Packard's Detroit factories. The result was the contemptible "Packardbakers," standard Studebakers tarted up and given Packard badges. This flushed the Packard name right down the toilet. Studebaker soldiered on, temporarily buoyed by the serendipity of having a small car available when recession hit in the early 60s, but wouldn't survive the decade. An interesting "what if" scenario persists of what would have happened if Studebaker-Packard had merged with Nash and Hudson's American Motors as originally planned. This would have given AMC a brand in every market to compete with the Big Three tit for tat.
I think this enlarged AMC could possibly weather out the rest of the century without being absorbed into Chrysler, but I don’t know about afterwards. During the 2000s, the Big Three were each shedding brands (mostly midrange, with the notable exception of Plymouth). Neither Oldsmobile or Plymouth made it to 2005, and the Recession would kill Mercury, Pontiac, and newer GM brands. Could AMC (including the assets of a stronger Studebaker-Packard) make it to the modern day? I don’t know. Maybe not.
In the end the result would have been the same a Packard-Hudson-Nash-Studebaker company still wouldn't have had the resources to compete with GM and Ford. Recall that Chrysler's DeSoto and then Imperial brands also died low volume deaths. IMO the South Bend and Kenosha plants had to be jettisoned to concentrate on the Packard and Hudson plants that were in Detroit. Then there were the problems of four different drivetrains, corporate conceit and alpha male egos. The only person who could have pulled off the merger would have been for FDR to force it during the war using using the iron fist of the War Production Board also forcing Willys-Overland into that merger. And what of Kaiser in this alternate universe?
@@curtislowe4577 My main reason for perpetuation of the larger AMC was that the larger volumes would have allowed for increased production to keep up, but unless there was some sort of Iacocca-esque figure to standardize it all using the best elements from each component company, I concede that a combination of decentralized operations and executive infighting would probably have caused the end of this company earlier than the 1980s.
Did Alco build more steam locomotives than Baldwin? Our boss from Greenville came down to our GE machine shop in Duluth to put down any Union talk. But I asked about when GE took over the Alco plant site. He got all excited about talking about that because GE had put him in charge of the Alco shutdown.
This should have been mentioned in this doc. Cass is my favorite place to go for steam rides, and since Shay's were built just 14 miles from where I grew up, and still live, it means all the more. Cass is a wonderful place to visit.
I think a more fitting analogy would be comparing the Steam Big Three to the Automotive Big three. Baldwin is like Ford, Alco is like GM, and Lima is like Chrysler.
thats exactly what I said! Baldwin was started by one person who loved to tinker around with machinery. ALCo was formed by a merger of several companies all producing the same product. and Lima always tried new, weird quirky things but just never got ahead of the other 2
I was thinking the same thing, although I would probably equate Alco to Ford, and Baldwin to GM, due to the volume of sales, but Lima would still be Chrysler. I could see Shays as "the Slant Six" of steam locomotives.
The last steam locomotive built by Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton was US army s160a class 2-8-0 #610. 610 was built in 1952, and was also the last steam locomotive built by an American manufacturer for domestic use.
Interesting video! All that exists of the original Lima Locomotive Works is an empty lot next to Cenovus Energy (Formerly Husky), and owned by the refinery at that site. Another energy company was set to build a generator site on that land, but ran out of funding after pouring the cement foundation for the planned building. That concrete shell is still there. There is another building on that site where mail was handled during the national Anthrax scare. Mail was processed at that site before being sent to the postal office in town. Part of the lot is used now as parking for turnaround/maintenance for the Cenovus Energy Refinery nearby. I currently handle landscaping needs on that lot. We just call it the "Loco Lot" now.
Lima fell from it's grace. Lima Locomotive Works built a lot of steam locomotives and we have a handful preserved. Lima Locomotive Works is gone but not forgotten.
For those curious about more details on Lima’s diesels: most crews really did like them. Armco used them for a long time and is where most of what’s left came from. There are reports from both the people and the management there were disappointed when they switched to EMD’s claiming it took two of them to replace one Lima Hamilton. They have really good and heavy frames that give them a bunch of tractive effort. To put that in perspective an LS 750 weighs more then an SD 10 and considering the LS 750 was the weakest of the Lima Hamiltons the fact that it’s been “tested” against a locomotive with far more horsepower and still come out on top is insane The flaws: easily the cooling system is the Lima Hamilton Achilles heel. They’re easily the worst part of their designs. They’re known to clog if they’re not upkeep properly. On top of that they use horizontal pipes instead of vertical or angled meaning that fully draining the water out of them is difficult and has created some problems with the pipes cracking. Parts are another issue too especially in the modern day. As soon as the cutter’s torch was lit the amount of usable parts basically disappeared. If you’re interested in learning more about Lima Hamiltons definitely go check out the Whitewater Valley Railroad since they have 3 of them and have 2 running
Again I enjoyed this video became I am a big fan of the Allegheny (2-6-6-6) steam locomotives. Looking at numerous other Locomotives and reading about all the big articulates, I belive that the Allegany (2-6-6-6) was the biggest of all steam Locomotives, but I do enjoy seeing & reading about the 5 biggest & humongous Locomotives to travel the rails. Thank you again.
10:36 fun fact the Lima A1 demonstrator Went on to ICRR and was numbered #8049, and the headlight after the locomotive was scrapped ended up in the hands of none other than Richard H. Jensen aka the owner of the 5629 and he even used said headlight on her.
The Shays were all on parade/display this weekend at Cass Scenic Railroad in Cass, West Virginia. Too bad you missed it. Jawtooth and Cass Scenic Productions both have good videos on it.
I think the change to Baldwin diesels was an attempt to eliminate a competitor. I believe Baldwin thought that if they eliminate Lima then they would scrape out just a tiny slice for themselves, not fully recognising the magnitude of their problems and that there was no more room to be had in the market by removing Lima. I could be mistaken it's just what makes sense to me.
You are slightly mistaken about this. Essentially the Renchler family who had the Hamilton engines merged into what was then Lima Hamilton. Baldwin was saddled with debt from the enormous new Eddystone plant and became a takeover target for Lima Hamilton. Thus Baldwin Lima Hamilton. The logic was simply that Baldwin was better known and had far more diesels already in the field than Lima. I think using the above analogies, AMC took over Chrysler. But the real question is what would have happened if they didn't merge with Baldwin? They would have been incentivised to get more locomotive orders, in fact they had a big one with the Southern Pacific that converted into more Baldwin S-12s. Lima was nimble and innovative and not mired with debt in a facility designed for the mass production of steam engines, with no market. Would have been interesting to see.
The Lima locomotive plant built cranes and road graders into the 1970s when the plant shut down for good. They started demolition in the late 90s and just recently started to redeveloped the land. There's a couple of legends floating around about the plant, one that a private party wanted to purchase the property and turn it into a living museum that restored and displayed operational steam locomotives but the city wanted to sell the land to a developer instead. Said developer went under trying to demolish the plant and thecity had pay to finish the job. Supposedly, the foundations around the old plant buildings run deep into the ground and it's very costly to build there as only the structures above ground were demolished and the old foundations have to be removed before any new construction can begin. There were rumors that when the plant shut down, they simply locked the doors and everyone went home leaving half assembled locomotives, parts, and the machinery that built them behind. I have no idea if any of that's true but it's fun to talk about.
In the late 50s I worked for Pelton Water Wheel a division of BLH corporation in San Francisco. in 1960 they closed and moved a small group back to Baldwin to handle parts sales for Pelton. It was exciting work. I served as a erection, engineer in several hydroelectric plants in the Sierra Nevada’s
We still have 16 of your BLH turbines running at John Day dam. Almost a quarter million horsepower Each making about 150 megawatts of clean hydro power. We opened in 1968. 90 rpm!
We had a 1000 hp locomotive BLH diesel engine running our emergency generator on the Empire State V training ship , ex USNS Barret built in 1950’s during Korean war.
there are several minority bulders you might do a video on, but the biggest of those was H.K Porter Co. which exported locos from Pittsburg to not ontly the US but most of the world. They concentrated on Narrow Gauge engines early on and after the narrow gauge boom ended by 1900 concentrated on industrial locos. Made a good jump to industrail diesels too, but still ended lococ production around 1956, but the Porter Co. still exists...they just dont make lococ, so it may be the ONLY former steam builder in existance.
I got to ride in a Shay locomotive at Roaring Camp railroad. It's a tourist line north of Santa Cruz,Ca ,the train takes you into giant Redwood Forests ,a great ride.
the Chilean Transandine had a Shay, it was only ever used on maintenance trains due to the slow speed but was the only loco in the fleet that could climb the 1 in 12 grade without the rack assistance
I have an interesting tangent idea for a video for you talk about car Foundry like General American Tank American car and Foundry that became paccar that built Kenworth Peterbilt maybe even talk about Pullman and the the Budd car company yes we love talking about locomotive Builders but if there was not train cars there would be no reason for a locomotive maybe even company that roll rail that makes continuous welded rail and another idea maybe you ever watched hyce he just did a cool documentary on switches maybe you could also talk about railroad infrastructure like switches Bridges companies that make such thing list you can't even talk about Westinghouse air brake company go on different tangents like that I think that would be awesome keep up the great work Darkness can't wait till your next video good luck in your endeavors my friend
I think you should forewarn Sir Darkness of the company involved with the Doncaster Works after nationalisation. 😅😅😅😅😅 And in fairness Doncaster Works is still operational albeit just on a maintenance basis now
@@lordcaptainvonthrust3rd That is true... WARNING, BR MAY BE INVOLVED HERE! But hey, I think it would be cool to hear the history of the works in our friend's... um... inimitable style. Especially since it means he could have a happy (?) ending story for this series...
Yeah but before the end we should cover the worst british locomotive manufacterer NBL!!!!(In fact only one of there main line diesels and electrics survived!From the same class that was the last withdrawn mainline NBL in the mid 70 that early!
Arguably they wanted steam all the way and all diesel were made by Hamilton.Of all builders they tried the least only making 175!No road diesls only centercabs or swithers!THE DIESELS THAT DIDNT!AND THE MANUFACTERER THAT DIDNT LIMA IN MY EYES WAS STEAM AT ITS BEST!Ending with NKP 759...
Yes! Lima was often referred to as "The Cadillac of Locomotives, and looking at a C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6, you can see why. Two of them survive - One at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, and the other at the Henty Ford Museum In Detroit.
So where I work, we have the final steam locomotive produced for domestic use by a commercial builder in the United States, which is a Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton locomotive, ex. US Army No. 610, class S160-A 2-8-0, built in March of 1952. It was a one off engine built for the army and used as a training locomotive at Fort Eustis, Virginia. Came to the Tennessee Valley in 1978, restored to operation in 1990, and operated until 2010. I also like to irritate steam people with a little phrase: “Baldwin build the most, Alco built the best, and Lima built the rest.” I’ve been snapped at by Lima fans more than once for that. It can also be translated to passenger car manufacturers as well. “Pullman built the most, American Car built the best, and Budd built the rest.”
Can’t forget application. Shays are often used in the woods where plenty of cheap fuel is available. Why switch to a fuel you have to go get versus what you have.
I believe the name came due to the first customer being a Japanese railway. Since this was at the time of Gilbert and Sullivan's heyday, it was given the Mikado name. During WWII, they were called "MacArthurs", because...reasons.
The SC railroad museum has two operating Baldwin Lima Hamilton switchers that they use for operations all throuth the summer. They are ex Navy i believe, and may be repowered.
Ohio may be boring, we actually make a LOT of stuff. Hummers. For a while AMG made Hummers in Moraine, Ohio, south of where I live in dayton. Tanks. Lima produced M4 shermans during WWII, and that plant never shut down. It still exists today, and currently manufactures new vehicles under general dynamics, including M1 abrams. They're shipped via rail through my hometown of Dayton. Airplanes! We... don't make them, but we invented them. Locomotives, obviously... Um... presidents! 8 of our 44 nations presidents come from Ohio, so yeah, we manufacture presidents... Same thing with astronauts! Neil Armstrong was actually from New Carlisle. There's a resturaunt there, Studebakers, that's a favorite for my family, that Neil Armstrong used to go to. He actually got T-boned in his corvette stingray out front. Story goes that he pulled out his license, and the other driver didn't believe he was Neil Armstrong... until the cop showed up and addressed him as "Mr. Armstrong." So... yeah... we make a LOT of stuff...
Its always been that way. Baldwin had the bigger name, so despite the fact that they churned out a lotta crap, the name prevailed til the end. Kinda like Martin n Lewis.
Can you do a history video of the arcade and attica 18 and 14 the 18 is out for a overhaul currently and the 14 is in the shed yoused for parts to keep the 18 up and runing the 14 is a Baldwin 4-6-0 the 18 is a 2-8-0 bills by alcohol in 1920 and the 14 was built 1917 if need more info go to (captine retro) plz do this video. captine retro made history of 14 and 18.
the 765 and its younger brother 779 are some of the last lima steam locomotive built. yes, the 779 is a park piece, but they want to get it restored and rail worthy
@@flagcityparts You also have the 757 in Bellevue, Ohio which the historical society that owns 765 has taken 765 there for photo ops. They even put a steam pipe between the two so they could blow both whistles
@Kyle Garlinger I'm a member of the ft.wayne railroad museum. I also hunt different railroad pieces, pictures, etc. for the allen County Museum in lima and a few other places. the things you can find at estate sales or public auctions that once was used daily on the railroad
Lima diesels looked pretty good better than baldwin s to bad they were late to the party as for steamers i like Rodgers which became Alco then Lima s then Baldwin
Learn something new every day. They are spelled the same but pronounced Leema, Peru and Lyma, Ohio. So I've mispronounced it for five decades since a junior high friend who was a model railroad afficionado also pronounced it like the Peruvian city. Yes, I spent a day at the Cass WV rail attraction. Wandering around the shop area and seeing all other unusual locos in their collection was particularly rewarding. If you watch some Phillipines urban area walking tours that get into older residential areas you will see many RC signs in front of local bodegas.
Why didn't Baldwin adopt Lima's diesel designs? Odds are something as simple as office politics. Merged companies end up in the Team A vs. Team B and whomever wins ignores anything the other team has not matter how much sense it makes. Baldwin being the bigger company likely had their own senior staff pushing their own designs without ever doing a real comparison.
Yay! Now then, how about some German Locomotive Workshops? I would say British, but somehow I feel German Locomotive Builds would probably be more desirable for you. Oh, or maybe do a video on the history of the products of Lego Locomotive Works. You know, all the Lego trains throughout history? Rockatoa, Brickticks out!
I work for csx out of the sekirk yard some of the oldheads still remember when it was the centrals yard and they used steam as kids id kill to go back in time and try save some nyc steam or at least get better pictures
Well... Kind of... Granted Dr.Pepper has a soda brand and Beverage company is a fun watch the Analogy is pretty good. You should look through the history of Dr.Pepper you'd have more fun Cause the last like 30-40 years for the company is a hoot of a time.
I’m sorry to have give you an F grade for your Lima video. Their stellar product, Southern Pacific’s GS (Golden State) line of 4-8-4 locomotives. SP always had their engineers develop excellent steam locomotives, well suited for the varied their terrain. Their first batch of GS locomotives we’re built by Baldwin, but Lima prevailed in obtaining subsequent batches. Lima had introduced many improvements that bettered SP’s designs. During WWII later batches with now called General Service with smaller than 80” drivers were also excellent freight locomotives. Your video barely mentioned these highly developed locomotives. I think you must be an easterner and basically ignored western railroading. Too bad, you missed a lot of railroading history.
Unfortunately, this is what you can expect from people making "documentaries" from their computers. He also did not mention that Shay's are still in regular use in Cass, West Virginia, on an original logging railroad. A wonderful place for steam lovers to visit.
Trivia note: Lima was still busy building locomotives during WW2, so their M4A1 production occurred at a new plant built southwest of the locomotive plant. Said plant is still standing today, and is the only tank manufacturing plant remaining in the US, still producing M1 Abrams tanks today.
Cool!
it's not the only thing they build they also rebuild and retrofit older versions
What is the name of the plant today?
@@luislaplume8261 General Dynamics - Joint Systems Manufacturing
They have an M1A1 sitting outside on display!
My Dad worked for the Lima Locomotive Works, or "the Loco" as it was referred to locally. By the time I could remember back to, thtey had already ceased production of locomotives, and were making their own line of Power equipment - Shovels and Cranes initially. (These were not designed by Clark) Clark designed mostly Road equipment, such as Front End Loaders, and blacktop pavers.
As a boy, I got to enter the plant on Sunday's when my Dad went in to file reports on what he did - he was a service repair man for Lima - heavy duty warranty work!. The plant was no where near at capacity, but it did make large equipment that needed a large place to do it. It was amazing to see the heavy cranes and infrastructure all shut down for the weekend.
my grandfather played for the Locos from 53-83
I went to college in Lima in the late 90's. I drove past the old work so many times before they pulled it down. it was a massive place! They actually had a large mural painted on a wall of some of their products. I wish I could of walked around inside but the buildings were crumbling.
The Baldwin-Lima merger reminds me of the Studebaker-Packard merger in the 50s. By that time, independent car makers like Studebaker and Packard saw the writing on the wall; Ford and General Motors were in an all out price war with Chrysler scooping up what customers were left. The only way they were going to compete with the big three was through merger. On paper, the merger of quirky bargain car maker Studebaker and prestige builder (once seen as the American peer of Rolls-Royce) Packard made sense, Studebaker providing a greater sales volume while Packard brought its prestigious reputation and build quality (BMW would do something similar when it bought the Mini nameplate). What actually happened is that because Studebaker's financial situation was actually worse than presented to Packard management prior to the merger, they couldn't maintain both companies' production facilities. The decision was made to favor the volume market and consolidate all production at Studebaker's inefficient facilities at South Bend and abandon Packard's Detroit factories. The result was the contemptible "Packardbakers," standard Studebakers tarted up and given Packard badges. This flushed the Packard name right down the toilet. Studebaker soldiered on, temporarily buoyed by the serendipity of having a small car available when recession hit in the early 60s, but wouldn't survive the decade. An interesting "what if" scenario persists of what would have happened if Studebaker-Packard had merged with Nash and Hudson's American Motors as originally planned. This would have given AMC a brand in every market to compete with the Big Three tit for tat.
I think this enlarged AMC could possibly weather out the rest of the century without being absorbed into Chrysler, but I don’t know about afterwards.
During the 2000s, the Big Three were each shedding brands (mostly midrange, with the notable exception of Plymouth). Neither Oldsmobile or Plymouth made it to 2005, and the Recession would kill Mercury, Pontiac, and newer GM brands. Could AMC (including the assets of a stronger Studebaker-Packard) make it to the modern day? I don’t know. Maybe not.
In the end the result would have been the same a Packard-Hudson-Nash-Studebaker company still wouldn't have had the resources to compete with GM and Ford. Recall that Chrysler's DeSoto and then Imperial brands also died low volume deaths.
IMO the South Bend and Kenosha plants had to be jettisoned to concentrate on the Packard and Hudson plants that were in Detroit. Then there were the problems of four different drivetrains, corporate conceit and alpha male egos. The only person who could have pulled off the merger would have been for FDR to force it during the war using using the iron fist of the War Production Board also forcing Willys-Overland into that merger. And what of Kaiser in this alternate universe?
@@curtislowe4577 My main reason for perpetuation of the larger AMC was that the larger volumes would have allowed for increased production to keep up, but unless there was some sort of Iacocca-esque figure to standardize it all using the best elements from each component company, I concede that a combination of decentralized operations and executive infighting would probably have caused the end of this company earlier than the 1980s.
Lima, little but what a great legend, also another comparison that fits,
Alco - GM
Baldwin - Ford
Lima - Chrysler
Did Alco build more steam locomotives than Baldwin? Our boss from Greenville came down to our GE machine shop in Duluth to put down any Union talk. But I asked about when GE took over the Alco plant site. He got all excited about talking about that because GE had put him in charge of the Alco shutdown.
Shays are still being worked in Cass WV. Love the sound of there steam whistles. They just echo up and down the Greenbrier River Valley
This should have been mentioned in this doc. Cass is my favorite place to go for steam rides, and since Shay's were built just 14 miles from where I grew up, and still live, it means all the more. Cass is a wonderful place to visit.
I think a more fitting analogy would be comparing the Steam Big Three to the Automotive Big three. Baldwin is like Ford, Alco is like GM, and Lima is like Chrysler.
Saying Alco is like GM sounds so weird but you have a point haha
Beat me to it! I was going to post virtually the same comment!
thats exactly what I said!
Baldwin was started by one person who loved to tinker around with machinery.
ALCo was formed by a merger of several companies all producing the same product.
and Lima always tried new, weird quirky things but just never got ahead of the other 2
I was thinking the same thing, although I would probably equate Alco to Ford, and Baldwin to GM, due to the volume of sales, but Lima would still be Chrysler.
I could see Shays as "the Slant Six" of steam locomotives.
That makes sense.
The last steam locomotive built by Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton was US army s160a class 2-8-0 #610. 610 was built in 1952, and was also the last steam locomotive built by an American manufacturer for domestic use.
Interesting video!
All that exists of the original Lima Locomotive Works is an empty lot next to Cenovus Energy (Formerly Husky), and owned by the refinery at that site. Another energy company was set to build a generator site on that land, but ran out of funding after pouring the cement foundation for the planned building. That concrete shell is still there.
There is another building on that site where mail was handled during the national Anthrax scare. Mail was processed at that site before being sent to the postal office in town. Part of the lot is used now as parking for turnaround/maintenance for the Cenovus Energy Refinery nearby.
I currently handle landscaping needs on that lot. We just call it the "Loco Lot" now.
Lima fell from it's grace. Lima Locomotive Works built a lot of steam locomotives and we have a handful preserved. Lima Locomotive Works is gone but not forgotten.
They actually built the first Sherman tank at Lima locomotive works
Menomee Shops (Milwaukee Road)
Roanoke Shops (N&W)
Altoona Works (PRR)
Colonie Shops (D&H)
More shops, please! 😎
Keep 'em videos coming! 🤜🏻🤛🏻🍻
Got to love the Shay, Climax and Heisler....how about videos on them as well?
Absolutely love the video Darkness great job keep up the wonderful work my friend
For those curious about more details on Lima’s diesels: most crews really did like them. Armco used them for a long time and is where most of what’s left came from. There are reports from both the people and the management there were disappointed when they switched to EMD’s claiming it took two of them to replace one Lima Hamilton. They have really good and heavy frames that give them a bunch of tractive effort. To put that in perspective an LS 750 weighs more then an SD 10 and considering the LS 750 was the weakest of the Lima Hamiltons the fact that it’s been “tested” against a locomotive with far more horsepower and still come out on top is insane
The flaws: easily the cooling system is the Lima Hamilton Achilles heel. They’re easily the worst part of their designs. They’re known to clog if they’re not upkeep properly. On top of that they use horizontal pipes instead of vertical or angled meaning that fully draining the water out of them is difficult and has created some problems with the pipes cracking. Parts are another issue too especially in the modern day. As soon as the cutter’s torch was lit the amount of usable parts basically disappeared.
If you’re interested in learning more about Lima Hamiltons definitely go check out the Whitewater Valley Railroad since they have 3 of them and have 2 running
14:50 I never thought you’d mention that part.
Comparing railroad companies with soda brands is an unusual metaphor, but I like it.
Again I enjoyed this video became I am a big fan of the Allegheny (2-6-6-6) steam locomotives. Looking at numerous other Locomotives and reading about all the big articulates, I belive that the Allegany (2-6-6-6) was the biggest of all steam Locomotives, but I do enjoy seeing & reading about the 5 biggest & humongous Locomotives to travel the rails. Thank you again.
10:36 fun fact the Lima A1 demonstrator Went on to ICRR and was numbered #8049, and the headlight after the locomotive was scrapped ended up in the hands of none other than Richard H. Jensen aka the owner of the 5629 and he even used said headlight on her.
The Shays were all on parade/display this weekend at Cass Scenic Railroad in Cass, West Virginia. Too bad you missed it. Jawtooth and Cass Scenic Productions both have good videos on it.
Super interesting - I didn't know that Shay was such an integral part Lima getting into railroad engines.
I live near Lima and have been to the museum there they have one of the bigger shay locomotives.
I think the change to Baldwin diesels was an attempt to eliminate a competitor. I believe Baldwin thought that if they eliminate Lima then they would scrape out just a tiny slice for themselves, not fully recognising the magnitude of their problems and that there was no more room to be had in the market by removing Lima. I could be mistaken it's just what makes sense to me.
You are slightly mistaken about this. Essentially the Renchler family who had the Hamilton engines merged into what was then Lima Hamilton. Baldwin was saddled with debt from the enormous new Eddystone plant and became a takeover target for Lima Hamilton. Thus Baldwin Lima Hamilton. The logic was simply that Baldwin was better known and had far more diesels already in the field than Lima. I think using the above analogies, AMC took over Chrysler. But the real question is what would have happened if they didn't merge with Baldwin? They would have been incentivised to get more locomotive orders, in fact they had a big one with the Southern Pacific that converted into more Baldwin S-12s. Lima was nimble and innovative and not mired with debt in a facility designed for the mass production of steam engines, with no market. Would have been interesting to see.
You are...correct!
Glad to see the video over Lima! Always loved there’ll locomotives T&P 610 and SP 4449 both always have been my favorite locomotives. Both Lima made.
What a GREAT presentation!
Those transfer engines were apparently fantastic for the PRR Schuylkill line, which had a massive 3% grade at Frackville.
The Lima locomotive plant built cranes and road graders into the 1970s when the plant shut down for good. They started demolition in the late 90s and just recently started to redeveloped the land. There's a couple of legends floating around about the plant, one that a private party wanted to purchase the property and turn it into a living museum that restored and displayed operational steam locomotives but the city wanted to sell the land to a developer instead. Said developer went under trying to demolish the plant and thecity had pay to finish the job. Supposedly, the foundations around the old plant buildings run deep into the ground and it's very costly to build there as only the structures above ground were demolished and the old foundations have to be removed before any new construction can begin. There were rumors that when the plant shut down, they simply locked the doors and everyone went home leaving half assembled locomotives, parts, and the machinery that built them behind. I have no idea if any of that's true but it's fun to talk about.
there is a lima and Bucyrus shovel at the fair grounds in Portland, Indiana there used during the tractor show
Its funny because the railroad I volunteer on has THE last ever 3ft gauge 3 truck Lima shay ever made and she was built in 1929
Superpower!
Super Locomotives!
as Jeremy Clarkson put it, "POWEEEEEEER!"
Lima had ideas for a next step i superpower 4-8-6s,6-8-6s,2-10-6s and 4-10-6s!
In the late 50s I worked for Pelton Water Wheel a division of BLH corporation in San Francisco. in 1960 they closed and moved a small group back to Baldwin to handle parts sales for Pelton. It was exciting work. I served as a erection, engineer in several hydroelectric plants in the Sierra Nevada’s
We still have 16 of your BLH turbines running at John Day dam.
Almost a quarter million horsepower
Each making about 150 megawatts of clean hydro power.
We opened in 1968.
90 rpm!
there are actually two operating lima hamelton diesels at the whitewater valley railroad in connersville Indiana
there is one sitting across the bridge from the muemee River in grand rapids ohio
We had a 1000 hp locomotive BLH diesel engine running our emergency generator on the Empire State V training ship , ex USNS Barret built in 1950’s during Korean war.
A nice welcome back home from vacation for me lol
It would be cool to see a video on H.K. Porter Inc. after this one.
You should check out the only two restored lima Hamiltons at the Whitewater Valley railroad in connersville, Indiana.
I would love a video on Fairbanks-Morse locomotives.
Great work Darkness, love the humor.
The picture in the beginning of the video of “Lima Ohio” is actually Cumberland maryland
I thought it looked too hilly for northern Ohio
Can you talk about Santa Fe?
Do H.K. Porter next
there are several minority bulders you might do a video on, but the biggest of those was H.K Porter Co. which exported locos from Pittsburg to not ontly the US but most of the world. They concentrated on Narrow Gauge engines early on and after the narrow gauge boom ended by 1900 concentrated on industrial locos. Made a good jump to industrail diesels too, but still ended lococ production around 1956, but the Porter Co. still exists...they just dont make lococ, so it may be the ONLY former steam builder in existance.
HK Porter bolt cutters are still popular, and don't they also make the highly-celebrated "Crescent" adjustable wrenches?
Thank you for the documentary. I
I sometimes called the 2-8-4 a Reversed mountain 4-8-2
(I'll be honest I didn’t know the origins of the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement)
Wasnt a 2-8-4 a Berkshire.
Beach boy Al Jardine’s father was Lima’s staff photographer. The ‘Boys have done several concerts there.
I got to ride in a Shay locomotive at Roaring Camp railroad. It's a tourist line north of Santa Cruz,Ca ,the train takes you into giant Redwood Forests ,a great ride.
The Willamette Iron & Steel Works would be a fun one for you to cover
the Chilean Transandine had a Shay, it was only ever used on maintenance trains due to the slow speed but was the only loco in the fleet that could climb the 1 in 12 grade without the rack assistance
I have an interesting tangent idea for a video for you talk about car Foundry like General American Tank American car and Foundry that became paccar that built Kenworth Peterbilt maybe even talk about Pullman and the the Budd car company yes we love talking about locomotive Builders but if there was not train cars there would be no reason for a locomotive maybe even company that roll rail that makes continuous welded rail and another idea maybe you ever watched hyce he just did a cool documentary on switches maybe you could also talk about railroad infrastructure like switches Bridges companies that make such thing list you can't even talk about Westinghouse air brake company go on different tangents like that I think that would be awesome keep up the great work Darkness can't wait till your next video good luck in your endeavors my friend
Good ideas all, but dude, how about some punctuation?? Your comment is so hard to read.
Peace.
You make great informative videos but the voice is kinda irritating you need to add a EQ and cut back the 800 to 315 K spectrum of the audio .
Mr. Darkness the Curse, could you do this kind of video for Britain's Doncaster Works?
I think you should forewarn Sir Darkness of the company involved with the Doncaster Works after nationalisation. 😅😅😅😅😅
And in fairness Doncaster Works is still operational albeit just on a maintenance basis now
@@lordcaptainvonthrust3rd That is true... WARNING, BR MAY BE INVOLVED HERE! But hey, I think it would be cool to hear the history of the works in our friend's... um... inimitable style. Especially since it means he could have a happy (?) ending story for this series...
Yeah but before the end we should cover the worst british locomotive manufacterer NBL!!!!(In fact only one of there main line diesels and electrics survived!From the same class that was the last withdrawn mainline NBL in the mid 70 that early!
OML! A reference to RECRUIT COLA (RC)!
Arguably they wanted steam all the way and all diesel were made by Hamilton.Of all builders they tried the least only making 175!No road diesls only centercabs or swithers!THE DIESELS THAT DIDNT!AND THE MANUFACTERER THAT DIDNT LIMA IN MY EYES WAS STEAM AT ITS BEST!Ending with NKP 759...
Yes! Lima was often referred to as "The Cadillac of Locomotives, and looking at a C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6, you can see why. Two of them survive - One at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, and the other at the Henty Ford Museum In Detroit.
Looking forward to it "josh" (history in the dark).
So i wonder what improvements the 4-8-6 had over the Birkshires!!!
So where I work, we have the final steam locomotive produced for domestic use by a commercial builder in the United States, which is a Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton locomotive, ex. US Army No. 610, class S160-A 2-8-0, built in March of 1952. It was a one off engine built for the army and used as a training locomotive at Fort Eustis, Virginia. Came to the Tennessee Valley in 1978, restored to operation in 1990, and operated until 2010.
I also like to irritate steam people with a little phrase: “Baldwin build the most, Alco built the best, and Lima built the rest.” I’ve been snapped at by Lima fans more than once for that. It can also be translated to passenger car manufacturers as well. “Pullman built the most, American Car built the best, and Budd built the rest.”
Merry Christmas Dark!
A 4-8-6? Interesting. I wonder what the benefits were. Also, what would the wheel arrangement be called?
Denial
You would have thought that the big name in geared locomotives would have gone diesel early.
Can’t forget application. Shays are often used in the woods where plenty of cheap fuel is available. Why switch to a fuel you have to go get versus what you have.
@@bcbloc02
Diesels don't drop burning embers out of the fire box or sparks out the smokestack.
Can you do a video of Pittsburgh and Lake Erie railroad
I read that Baldwin bought lima-Hamilton for there equipment line. Cranes and such.
It will forever haunt me that the 2-8-2 wheel arrangement isn't nicknamed "owl" 🦉
What’s wrong with mikado
I believe the name came due to the first customer being a Japanese railway. Since this was at the time of Gilbert and Sullivan's heyday, it was given the Mikado name. During WWII, they were called "MacArthurs", because...reasons.
@@moosecat really
Why "Owl"?
@@aj3751 Owl would actually be 2-8-2-0.
The SC railroad museum has two operating Baldwin Lima Hamilton switchers that they use for operations all throuth the summer. They are ex Navy i believe, and may be repowered.
1:33 cumberland md not lima ohio
Does Pepsi and Coke taste similar to some people? Never thought of DP as being the "odd" one lol.
Do more videos about locomotive manufacturers.
Baldwin also built the berkshire.
Same reason PennCentral existed
I'm English the us has so many great things in music for ex mettalica Baldwin locomotive works and doodlebugs also the big boy exist
Ps loved the video
workrails when :)
Ohio may be boring, we actually make a LOT of stuff. Hummers. For a while AMG made Hummers in Moraine, Ohio, south of where I live in dayton.
Tanks. Lima produced M4 shermans during WWII, and that plant never shut down. It still exists today, and currently manufactures new vehicles under general dynamics, including M1 abrams. They're shipped via rail through my hometown of Dayton.
Airplanes! We... don't make them, but we invented them.
Locomotives, obviously...
Um... presidents! 8 of our 44 nations presidents come from Ohio, so yeah, we manufacture presidents...
Same thing with astronauts! Neil Armstrong was actually from New Carlisle. There's a resturaunt there, Studebakers, that's a favorite for my family, that Neil Armstrong used to go to. He actually got T-boned in his corvette stingray out front. Story goes that he pulled out his license, and the other driver didn't believe he was Neil Armstrong... until the cop showed up and addressed him as "Mr. Armstrong."
So... yeah... we make a LOT of stuff...
23:30 I wish I was strong as that man who is sigle handledly moving a loco along the truacks! Must be because of Lima... beans!
How about doing a series on camelbacks
Didn’t they eventually build Tanks at that site?
Its always been that way. Baldwin had the bigger name, so despite the fact that they churned out a lotta crap, the name prevailed til the end. Kinda like Martin n Lewis.
Nice Video, small note LIVERY is not pronounced live re, Google pronunciation livery
The Southern Pacific Yellowstone Class AC-9 steam locomotives.
i will never not find the fact I live 30mins out of Lima and the fact I only drink DR Pepper funny.
LEEMA!!!
It's sad they tore it down
Can you do a history video of the arcade and attica 18 and 14 the 18 is out for a overhaul currently and the 14 is in the shed yoused for parts to keep the 18 up and runing the 14 is a Baldwin 4-6-0 the 18 is a 2-8-0 bills by alcohol in 1920 and the 14 was built 1917 if need more info go to (captine retro) plz do this video. captine retro made history of 14 and 18.
at 1:31 that is not lima or even ohio
Lima (Lyma) ohio
Lima (Liema) peru
And
Ligma balls
Royal Crown Cola.
No love for the NKP 765 *sigh*
Curious, why?
the 765 and its younger brother 779 are some of the last lima steam locomotive built.
yes, the 779 is a park piece, but they want to get it restored and rail worthy
@@flagcityparts You also have the 757 in Bellevue, Ohio which the historical society that owns 765 has taken 765 there for photo ops. They even put a steam pipe between the two so they could blow both whistles
@Kyle Garlinger I'm a member of the ft.wayne railroad museum.
I also hunt different railroad pieces, pictures, etc. for the allen County Museum in lima and a few other places. the things you can find at estate sales or public auctions that once was used daily on the railroad
@@flagcityparts Nice. I’m an hour south of Fort Wayne so that’s probably why the 765 is my favorite lol
Lima diesels looked pretty good better than baldwin s to bad they were late to the party as for steamers i like Rodgers which became Alco then Lima s then Baldwin
so when are you going to start making videos like this about a non-american companies?
Borsig? Schneider et Cie? John Cockerill? Kitson? Andsaldo? BRCW?
@@ROBERTN-ut2il why not? america isn't the only country with history in train building
Dr pepper 🎉🎉🎉
Can you make a video about british railways again ?😂😂
Lima superior, Baldwin inferior.
Ligma Locomotive Works.
I love the fact that the fridges full of soft drinks near the end are from UK footage. How do I know? Irn Bru and Vimto 😊😊😊
Learn something new every day. They are spelled the same but pronounced Leema, Peru and Lyma, Ohio. So I've mispronounced it for five decades since a junior high friend who was a model railroad afficionado also pronounced it like the Peruvian city.
Yes, I spent a day at the Cass WV rail attraction. Wandering around the shop area and seeing all other unusual locos in their collection was particularly rewarding.
If you watch some Phillipines urban area walking tours that get into older residential areas you will see many RC signs in front of local bodegas.
Why didn't Baldwin adopt Lima's diesel designs? Odds are something as simple as office politics. Merged companies end up in the Team A vs. Team B and whomever wins ignores anything the other team has not matter how much sense it makes. Baldwin being the bigger company likely had their own senior staff pushing their own designs without ever doing a real comparison.
Yay! Now then, how about some German Locomotive Workshops? I would say British, but somehow I feel German Locomotive Builds would probably be more desirable for you.
Oh, or maybe do a video on the history of the products of Lego Locomotive Works. You know, all the Lego trains throughout history?
Rockatoa, Brickticks out!
🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃👍
If you ever go to Lima Ohio, make sure to visit kewpee hamburgers.
I can't stand that style of performance. I wondered if he had fits whilst talking.
I work for csx out of the sekirk yard some of the oldheads still remember when it was the centrals yard and they used steam as kids id kill to go back in time and try save some nyc steam or at least get better pictures
I see some I.C.R.R. steam power, I grew up with the Illinois Central Railroad in Bardwell and Paducah Kentucky from 84 to 05
Well... Kind of... Granted Dr.Pepper has a soda brand and Beverage company is a fun watch the Analogy is pretty good. You should look through the history of Dr.Pepper you'd have more fun Cause the last like 30-40 years for the company is a hoot of a time.
I’m sorry to have give you an F grade for your Lima video. Their stellar product, Southern Pacific’s GS (Golden State) line of 4-8-4 locomotives. SP always had their engineers develop excellent steam locomotives, well suited for the varied their terrain. Their first batch of GS locomotives we’re built by Baldwin, but Lima prevailed in obtaining subsequent batches. Lima had introduced many improvements that bettered SP’s designs. During WWII later batches with now called General Service with smaller than 80” drivers were also excellent freight locomotives. Your video barely mentioned these highly developed locomotives.
I think you must be an easterner and basically ignored western railroading. Too bad, you missed a lot of railroading history.
Unfortunately, this is what you can expect from people making "documentaries" from their computers. He also did not mention that Shay's are still in regular use in Cass, West Virginia, on an original logging railroad. A wonderful place for steam lovers to visit.