Is it unreasonable to expect for upgrades and updates as part of the price of the hardware? Would you be happy to pay for updates going forward for your chosen piece of hardware?
The thing is for me this isn’t a charge for additional ongoing r&d…all of the features that kemper are charging additional hundreds of £’s for were already in place in their other products with the hardware already primed to use.
Nope! Thanks to Kemper for removing their products from researching their products for a potential future purchase. I'll stick with Line 6 or other brands which provide free upgrades.
It is all moot. Hotone, NUX, Mooer, Zoom et al don't have the brand cache to be able to charge. Boss hold the key. I don't believe they will charge. If they don't then the model is dead as Line 6 and Headrush can't surrender the market to them. I mean, I could get 2 x gt1000 core for cost of a player + lvl3 and a midi switcher.
well, a high price suggest that the company doesn’t think that many people will do it so they have to make more off of each purchase. It’s probably also a function of them not selling as many units as they thought they would. So a smaller user base of units means they have to, increase the price.
it’s perfectly reasonable to expect software updates but not necessarily upgrades. The base unit will need to be improved to keep pace with other units on the market so that encourages them to do updates and keep the product competitive. However, upgrading it to a new product that would undercut their existing offerings doesn’t make much sense.
The issue isn't a paid update, but it's that this product was released not long ago and clearly they could have had all those effects included in the first version - this is a marketing and revenue roll out that was done on purpose. It would have been the plan all along and so it's deceiving.
@@Arthur_My_Dear I agree with you about the price, paying this sort of money for an update so soon after a release sets a dangerous precedent for the future.
I don’t think there’s any grey area here. Yes, the Kemper has been improving with new features and FX over the years, BUT they have all been around the same price. On the other hand, the Kemper Player is around half the price of the other formats, so you can’t expect to get the same software capabilities of the more expensive units for the original price of the Player How’s that fair? You want all the capabilities of the more expensive units, but keep the small footprint of the Player? Well, pay more. If these people who are complaining wanted the full functionality they would’ve skipped the Player and gone for the Stage (or any of the other variants). Oh, but it’s twice as expensive. EXACTLY! lol
The upgrade is 43% of the original hardware price. I think that’s the part that’s stinging. And there are BS tiers. Anyone that’s gonna upgrade is gonna want to go all the way. I personally don’t use a Kemper Player but I’d definitely be in the crowd that’s annoyed by this.
I theorized this on ToneJunkie's channel. It's not really anger specifically at Kemper - I do think it's part of the larger phenomenon of subscription disgust/fatigure/intolerance that people are feeling. FINALLY. When you bought a car in the past and you paid for the power windows package at the time of sale, those power windows were forever features for you. And for the next person if you sell the car. Now, to mostly to aid manufacturers in simplifying their skus and assembly methods, as well as create a literal slavery chain around consumers' necks forever, you have subscriptions and remote disabling of features. Blame Tesla but they're not the only cultprits. You know who are wringing their hands in delight and anticipation? Analog pedal and gear makers, waiting to welcome back and embrace us all.
I have a recent Fractal FM3 (Turbo) and have had a constant series of improvements and features all at no extra cost. I really appreciate Fractal's culture of looking after its customer base and not just trying to extract money at every opportunity. The same can be said for my Tonex pedal and even my Boss GX100 that has just had a recent update providing more features at no cost. I can definitely say I choose products that represent quality, bang for buck and constant improvement at no extra cost. To each their own, but Kemper charging for its feature sets to be installed just makes me look to other products that dont do this constant money grab from its customers!
I don't think it's "morally wrong" to charge for updates, it's just likely a stupid lose, lose move in practice. Free firmware updates keep products alive and result in free marketing and loyal customers. It's even worse for a product like the Kemper which was of questionable value to begin with. If this was a free update, I think the kemper player would have become an interesting option compared to a HX Stomp or FM3. As it is it just looks like bad value for the money. Makes me wonder whether neuraldsp has the same plans with the nanocortex. Given the very limited current feature set it wouldn't surprise me. Still, it beats GoPro selling software updates as "new" camera every year.
Unless all other follow suit, and it becomes the norm. A loss for consumers, a gain for companies. For those of us old enough to remember, there was a time when you purchased a game and had the full game. Now, you get a half baked semi finished game, and have to purchase your way to complete content. It became the norm.
@@literalghost929 I hope that the barrier to entry for guitar effects is low enough to prevent such enshittification but I wouldn't want to bet on it. On the positive side, at least some of the companies in the 'AAA' gaming space seem to be suffering from their anti-consumer practices. We better vote with our wallets. :)
It’s the Apple Modell. You can spend less to be part of the family but just a little bit more to get to the next, then just a little bit more to get to the next. So the statistics are clear on that almost all people overbuy and buy stuff they don’t really need
I can see both sides of the argument, but I would be pretty unhappy to buy the player and then realise that it seems to have limited functionality unless I pay out an additional 300 for the full version which I was unaware of unlike the manufacturer who knew all along at its release. I bought a Line 6 Helix LT new a few years ago and the updates have been fantastic and free and I have been so impressed by their product that last week I bought a used Helix floor, using the LT now for students in my teaching studio as well as a backup at gigs. Even though the Helix is a fair few years old now, Line 6 have kept it up to date with excellent updates and it is still a force to be reckoned with. This can only be a good thing as line 6 sell plenty of Helix's in different versions and the purchaser gets an excellent processor with pretty frequent updates.
Hotone/Sonicake/Valeton etc going to start cleaning up with these other companies making these changes. All of a sudden peoples ears won't be able to hear any difference between Kemper Profiler Player and Valeton GP-200. In fact the Valeton might start sounding superior all of a sudden. 😅 Or people go the other way if companies like Fractal hold the line on their current model. Rather pay $1800 up front knowing I'm getting everything for that price than pay $700 now, $300 later, and another $300 next year... Lifetime costs are a factor. But these middle of the road priced products do not have a clear niche in the market other than truly being middle of the road in price while getting some of the same features as the top of the class gear. One wrong move left or right and the cheaper stuff looks more attractive or the more expensive stuff starts looking reasonable on lifetime cost of ownership and bang for buck.
Absolutely. And, Boss will be unlikely to charge in an attempt to create a differentiator and get back into the conversation. If Boss don't charge, then Line 6 are stuck, unless they split their product strategy, which gets messy. At that point, it is game over for this model in the main stream.
As I commented on the other video, if manufacturers want to push paid updates, that's their choice. BUT, be honest with consumers and give them the information they need to make an informed choice BEFORE you take their money. Consumers will then vote with their wallets in accordance with which products they feel best meet their needs.
I think a lot of you are missing the point. I don’t see this bringing in a new era of paid upgrades. I think in this case it’s very clear that they released a restricted product that’s much cheaper than any other offering and offered upgrades that allow for you to get the specs that match the great kemper range. One, you don’t have to get these upgrades. They’re still providing updates for the device, they’re simply offering some premium features. And honestly the reason I don’t think this matters is I believe what they’re doing is offering hardware with tiers of capabilities. Some people don’t want or need those capabilities and they’re going to save the money.
I think the issue is putting functionality behind a paywall and there being no hint at it. It’s a fairly new product and I think that makes people cynical about it more; was this meant to have this at launch as an option and Kemper just wasn’t ready? If that’s the case, they should have said so at launch that more is coming for a fee. Right now it feels like the increased functionally itself being gatekept behind a fee to first buy Kemper effects first, then buy the ability to do what you want with them. Eventide did it better with the H9
I don't miss what I don't have. There is litterally nothing that the Helix or Boss GT 1000 core, or HXFX has omitted (or even the Boss Katana MK1) that I am thinking "yeah I really need that". Something that I would use all the time..and not just forget about after a week.
How many reviews have you seen where the reviewer asks "What were they thinking? Maybe they will fix this in an update" ? Often times those free updates are fixing things that should have never went out the door. Software can get away with hobbling there product and let you pay for added functionality. But they get away with it because 99% of the time that software is free. How would Kemper feel about giving their hardware away for free and make you pay for updates. It is absurd to think that a business model for free software can be applied to hardware. Don't buy any new Kemper players or this will become the norm.
People shrieking about it online is not the test of whether this is a good business model. Of course, I have a helix not a kemper. There is an attention economy, and free upgrades get the product back in the social media spotlight, and people make videos like “ should you own X in 2024.” I bought a helix lt quite late in the game a few years ago, and it’s still churning out updates…
But, does it NEED the updates? I bought a Helix floor when they first came out and I've never updated it. It still sounds great and does more stuff than I'll ever need.
The Kemper Player is a unique case in that it is the ONLY one of the smaller units that you can get to play the exact same presets as its bigger brothers with the upgrade. No software update/upgrade can make the Fractal FM3 play a full fledged preset from the Axe FX3 but the Player, with the Upgrade can play any preset from the Kemper Profiler. What that is worth, everyone has to decide for themselves. I think this is not the beginning of some new time period of paid content. This is a one time case for one specific product.
It’s about trust. People bought the cheaper player with the understanding that the limitations were hardware (less DSP) and then they find out Kemper deliberately hamstrung the product to get more money later. Just be up front about it. There’s also this unspoken agreement that we buy half-finished products now believing the company will fix it later (quad cortex started this trend, and the Kemper player still can’t do dual button presses yet etc.) This falls apart if we aren’t sure the fix will be a paid upgrade.
Not sure if its the same thing, but in a way, Fractal have started doing this as well. They came out with Dyna Cabs which is their improved speaker cab modelling. They offered a number of free cab selections during one of their firmware updates earlier this year. Now if you want additional cab models, you have to pay them.
DynaCab is a completely different business model. AxeFx users got a free update with free DynaCabs. Paid DynaCabs cannot be loaded into AxeFx. They require a CabLab DAW plugin. So it is more like TwoNotes cabinets which can be used in your DAW not just AxeFx units
It is easy... The total amount of money a company needs to make does not change significantly. If you pay more for the hardware or the software does not matter. Comparing a small company like Kemper to Yamaha/Line 6 (volume) or Fractal (horrendous hardware prices) does not work. Also, Kemper builds products in a first world country with qualified adults, social security, health insurance, fair salaries, proper vacation eligibility etc. If you want to still have a proper job yourself in the future, you might want to support them. Also, compare the Kemper Player to UA and Strymon one trick pedals... it will look like quite a bargain.
Musicians are already broke . Lol I dont think is good idea to start charging people. I can only assume the company is about to go broke and they're just looking for a way to get money 💰 🤑 💸
So I guess everyone would feel better about this if they initially released the Player with full capability and sold it for $1000??? I think it makes sense to have a lower initial costs and then pay for added functionality if/when I decide it's needed. At the end of the day the Player is a much smaller unit and has the same capabilities as the Stage (not including captures, which I could care less about)and at $700 or $1000, it's still quite a bit less than the Stage!! What's the problem here??
But you don't get 100 different amp models, and 300 pedals, in one analog amp. Guitards seem to be the only people on the planet who think they only have to pay for one item then all of the other items should be free forever.
since the player is designed to be integrated with other pedals, this seems to make sense to me to provide upgrades for people who want fewer pedals and have the unit do more things. if you have taken into account the cost, it would take to have that functionality through buying other petals. Then the cost is comparable. this makes the player more flexible, which should be a good thing.
I am a software engineer by trade. Software costs money to make, and sometimes upgrades might be costlier than people may think, so paying for a software upgrade is not necessarily something unheard of. I think the problem is that getting hardware in the market to artificially limit it, and unlock its full capacity through a paid for upgrade is the "dodgy" part IMHO. It would be different to provide the full capabilities and suggest that more effects, models are to be paid for and different to suggest that in order to use the full capacity of the hardware that has been purchased already, you need to pay extra. If it was just software, it would have probably been acceptable. If it was restricted hardware sold at 70% of the more powerful/featureful one and they are both available at launch time and you choose the one you want, people would not necesarily complain, even if the outcome would be what is happening now. Pushing the upgrade as a tiered subscription though, so shortly after launch, seems like a calculated move, and definitely bad marketing
It’s all context. When the player was released, it was assumed that since it only came with a streamlined number of their effects that it didn’t even have the DSP to do all their advanced delays and reverbs and things., let alone the same 8 effect signal path as the stage and head. The player basically came with the effects that the original 2012 head came with, but with fewer things to tweak in the amp and cab section and half as many effects blocks. (So in less than one year after release, player owners were offered the ability to double the number of effects and access 12 years worth of developments. It’s one thing to “get those things for free” while sticking with the unit for 12 years, it’s quite another to be offered all of that development all at once on top of doubling the number of effects. Had the other days upgrade been free, it would be the most massive free update in the history of guitar technology, vastly exceeding anything that people who bought the player could’ve expected to have gotten. The stage is currently $1500 and was 1700 not long ago. To get everything that it is capable of minus the foot switches, screen and an effects loop, would make the $700 base price of the player way underpriced in comparison. Typically people price their levels of gear in a way that the best bargain is getting the most expensive version. $1000 for the unit and all the possible upgrades seems about the right price when the flagship version that would only add foot switches and a couple jacks in a screen is $500 more. On the other hand, such a small unit with only 3 foot switches, it seems overkill to pay for level 3 when level 2 gets you all the effects. The whole point of having such a small unit is because you plan to use it with other effect pedals. (by the way, little discussed is the fact that they just offered a free update the other day to give the player all the expanded amp and cab adjustsments.
The reason I bought a Line 6 Helix this month is because despite being nearly 10 years old, ANCIENT in terms of modeling tech, Line 6 has supported it in a way that shows it doesn’t need to be changed. I don’t have to worry about it being outdated by a new product release every year, I don’t have to worry about it having promised features at launch that still haven’t come out a couple years later, and I don’t have to worry about the hardware capabilities it shipped with being locked behind a paywall. These are the reasons Line 6 has built such a trusted position with musicians that they still buy a device from 2015 in 2024 as opposed to something from Fractal, Neural DSP, or Kemper. The example I keep using for this blunder of a decision from Kemper is this. If I were to buy a car and find out that the company that made it limits the engine to 50% of its power until I give them more money to “unlock” what it was meant to do from the factory, I would ensure that I’d never give that brand another penny for the rest of my life.
If the company does updates to keep their existing hardware relevant and saves them having to produce new devices then what's the problem? If your Kemper is now sounding as great as a QC or Fractal then you've just made your place in the game more secure and you still have a viable product. Free firmware updates should be the norm, extra software is a different case.
If you chose to buy the Kemper Player, you opted into living without the features that you now can buy with the new upgrade. If you so desire you can spend the money and extend the unit or you just leave it like it is. I don't see why there is a problem at all. Saying that the DSP has been there already does not change this. With that argument companies would have to give away all of their plugins for free, because we already have the hardware to run them on. We can't expect everything to be free. That's just ridiculous.
I can't seem to get into modeling, not the name brand big ones. I have the Dream from UA and use my 7 sting through the Ampeg SGT-DI, I look at the simplifier as well. To me the modelers are basically a scam, they cost a ton, fail to give players the amp in the room feel and have add on's for more cost, that's not new. I think modelers distortion sound like trash, most the time. You don't get all pedals out there, in fact you get a very limited amount... so if you want that odd pedal you must add that to the cost. When all in, most of these devices cost around 4k, but resale ain't close to that, so you're all living in a dream world. No, you can't pretend your 2k modeler sounds great through 300$ monitors or that adding other pedals, covers, buttons ect don't add to a modeler cost... they all do. As for the topic this is how I see it... If a company gives you a board/pedal then all updates should be free outside of new amps/pedals/cabs. All the functionality that Kemper locked behind a paywall despite the unite as is being capable of it was just bad business practice. Keeping your unit up to date and working optimally is expected, additions like sounds should cost more because that takes real work and was never expected. That is how these companies compete, who has the best working unit as any given time... What YOU add should be on you... just like any real life pedal. YOU should pick what you want and don't want for amps/cabs/pedals ect. The idea that you get 200 amps, 600 pedals and endless cabs is mindless because in the end 99% of you will use 3-5 amps, 4-6 cabs and the same 10-12 pedals and that's the real joke of it all... You're paying tons for quite a small amount. All that being said, when companies release updates they should consider also giving some new cabs/amps/pedals for free as promotions. Paying extra so that my car can go above 60mph a year later is not the same as paying for XM radio in it... That being said, pedals should NEVER move to subscription, when they do it will be their death.
As a longtime Kemper (Stage) user, I've really appreciated all the free updates over the past 5 years I've had the unit. And I know Profilers had been receiving free updates prior to my purchasing my Stage for far longer. But that said, I do agree with some of the negative comments regarding paid updates. Sure, a manufacturing company is not a charitable organisation and has got to be able to make money. However, as you've said, I think there are any number of ways Kemper could've handled this far more skilfully than they did. I for one would not be interested in a subscription model, having been burned by the likes of Adobe and others, and I've found the additional 'upgrades' are mostly not worth the price of subscription. So I think some transparency is what's needed most. For example, if Kemper (or whoever) were to offer a product that comes with 5 years of free upgrades (or whatever), along with a list of proposed future upgrades, at least customers would know what to expect. But that's just one possibility. Prior to this I've always loved my Kemper gear and have been willing to sing its praises (mostly by allowing my sounds to speak for themselves), but I also don't believe in blind brand loyalty. If I find a product priced more appropriately that also sounds better and is easier to use, I'll go with that instead. Cheers!
To hell with Kemper. Software was already destroyed with the rental model and now we have to deal with this. I hope someone hacks the thing and offers the hack for free. Freaking people sitting there with 4 Kempers in a room of vintage amps going "gee its just money"
Ok, without being cheeky this time - As companies develop products like this, it takes a lot of work, there is a finite customer base. And so the revenue stream can also be finite. That’s not a great business model for companies that want to grow. But as companies get into the software side of it, the business model for software can be an ongoing revenue stream via updates. For the business this makes sense. For the customer, not so much. And this has happened in the software side of business for decades. Sell a usable but not comprehensive piece of software, and offer upgrades or a pro version for a fixed price or via subscription model. If you look around at all avenues of business, that the direction everyone wants to move. Less dependence on the physical, and more dependence on the thing they can sell you over and over - software.
They intentionally crippled it at launch to make more money down the road. If they're going to do that it should be 50 or 100 max. 1 thing about line 6 is they're owned by yamaha so they have deep pockets to invest for the long haul. Same with fender which is why I'm optimistic about the TMP.
Hmm jury is still out for me on that If they see that users will justify the cost I could see fender releasing a ‘special’ hand crafted amp pack As a paid upgrade in the future I hope not but if there’s profit to be had !!
Depends on the upgrade. Like you said if hx effects could now opetare and run models, that's a worth-while extra expense for the user, and is something that was not on tbe cards remotely when the product was launched. Same thing with QC. No plug in discount for people who own the hardware? Probably is where things are going unless there's enough blowback to keep manufacturers at bay.
Well, if updates cost money they can't expect that people will buy their products after launch. "Oh, a new Kemper hardware? I'll buy it in 2-3 years then". 🤔 As I see it, personally just bought an FM9 (costs 133% in EU of what US are paying), for that high price I EXPECT updates to be included. Thats what I take into consideration when buying it.
I’m a Quad Cortex user and like their model where the plugins are optional with payment. I dislike the idea of adding features to the device for money. Charging for optional stuff like amp packs is probably ok in my book. Great stuff as always Jon! 😊
Agree that the way they did it was bad. If they did it at launch and you could choose based on what you want/need like the H9 series than I think it would have gone over better. They should spend more time trying to update their capture algorithms and release a new product. Fractal can get new revenue streams because the product cycle doesn’t last forever like the Kemper has.
I don’t think it’s “wrong” for Kemper to do what they did. I just think in light of the way the industry has changed with Kemper (in the past), helix, and fractal, it has become an industry expectation. And I think that’s one of the very things that has made these three units so successful for so long! So to change that now, I think, maybe detrimental…
I've had a Kemper since they came out, it's been a minute. I decided to buy the pedal version because of all great profiles I already own. If this was what Kemper was going to do they should have been transparent about it. I am bummed I spent that money, especially since I had the old toaster. Kemper knew full well what their customers expected, seems like a bit of a bait and switch. Screw Kemper, I'm done with that company.
@@johnnathancordy Sorry, if I knew someone was actually going to read the comments I would have been more articulate. As an early adopter of the toaster I waited for a bit for Kemper to release updates to make it more usable, and they did, so kudos for that. I have no problem paying for profiles - I own a bunch of M. Britt, Tone Junkie, etc. Similarly with the quad I purchased the Gojira pack, Plini, etc. I purchased the player to update the Kemper hardware and have something gig-worthy, I just didn't expect them to start charging for what I kind of consider core functionality I guess, hence my ill formed outburst. And as a side note most of the LED light on the toaster head have gone out, so it's a bit of guess work these days.
happy that I am not own a kemper player because that update would absolutely pisses me of! way to expensive ...for the full package you get a used kemper stage or even better another product from another brand 😊 the release of the unit was in january or february 24 and now the updates for a lot of money to get the full product ...are we in the gaming industry? 😉
Making clients pay for updates is one thing. Another is the price point itself. Charging three digit amounts is completely unreasonable. I do still own tube amps which I planned to sell once. This won’t happen now. A real Plexi or 800 is fantastic over its entire life span, even if it lives forever. No upgrade needed here.
I am certain they knew how much these upgrades were gonna cost when they originally sold the player. I wonder how many people would’ve bought the player, knowing the upgrade prices. I am a stage user and will continue to be, but I don’t think I would ever buy the player at this point. If I wanted something else, I would get another stage or switch to another company’s product
I had to buy my computer. It came with some software and it'll do more stuff than I'll ever use. It has the capability to do even more, but I'll have to buy the software if I want that functionality. Why should it be any different with digital multi effects pedals?
I think the sore point is that these aren't upgrades, they're updates. The hardware is unchanged, it was always either capable of doing something (processing power, memory etc) or not. The valve amp equivalent would be something like selling you an amp with the half power switch locked in place or the channel selector button locked to clean. Then, down the line, charging you to unlock the switches so you can run it at full power and use the drive channel. I don't think that would go down well and neither has this.
It makes me more concerned then i was already about buying a modeler. The concern about buying something that's basic temporary, and now possibly having to pay an unspecified extra on top to get the full life out of the product. Definitely pushing me even more towards a real tube amp with an attenuator or a loadbox to go silent if needed.
I think the problem with that was the way they did it. You know, if it was launched with two or three options from the beginning, and the buyer could choose any one I think it would be fine, but they launched a simpler option by taking out things they already have on all of their products, and only a few months later they say, Oh, you know, I can give you some of the things I said I couldn't give you if you pay me a little more. I think this is the problem.
With advancements in AI, it will become easier to Mod or jailbreak devices, if a User feels a necessary feature isn't being provided by the manufacturer. At the moment, Line 6 has done a pretty good job. But, if you use Line 6 Ideascale, you regularly see how many users have great product improvement ideas that can be implemented in the software. Users Mod Guitars, Amps, Pedals, etc. when the provided models don't do quite what they want. This is likely to happen to Modelers. There are several software/firmware Mods I make to my HX Stomp today, if I could.
Cost of software updates and enhancements should be clear at the time of release and/or when purchase is made. People have bought this device with an implied free updates understanding.
Surely upgrades on a piece of hardware is a better idea than continuous new hardware, that then kills the price of the previous piece of hardware? How much is a Pod HD500 or Axe-FX2 or Ultra worth today? Keeping in mind my favourite piece of digital gear today is my Kemper Head I bought 12 years ago...and I can sell it today for more than I paid in 2012.
In video games, many consoles are sold at a loss, which is offset by paying for games and DLCs. If they want to charge for updates, they will have to reduce prices a lot.
There's should at least be a period of time where updates are free. If you've only owned a product for a couple years then updates should be free, but if you've owned a product for almost a decade and they're still coming out with upgrades then I can understand paying for those.
I did briefly consider the Kemper player (because of size) despite the fact that I have never really got on with the platform. With this announcement I am sure glad I did not go down that road. If they brought out a Kemper 2 then that is the paid upgrade route. As I said before aging platform money grab.
To be honest, I’d rather it’d cost a bit more at launch because if it just broke then everything would be covered by warranty… now if I upgrade my player and it breaks, and I get a new though warranty, the update isn’t covered. Hence I got to buy it again. And they move into the Fractal FM3 price range, which I’m not convinced is where they would want to be. I’ve owned two racks and now the player. I’ll probably update it at some point but Kemper is moving down a route where I’m not willing to follow… I will probably choose something else next time… Some say that it wouldn’t be fair if it had all the functionality of the rack or toaster, but it’s more comparable to the stage. It is 10 year old tech, the stage has a screen, fx loop, multiple programmable buttons and much more connection possibilities… and I could get one used for almost what the player cost. The math is easy… As a bare minimum they should include for the scheme as Eventide where you only need one Max, then the updates apply to the others as well…
Kemper is charging extra for FUNCTIONALITY, not for updates, not for upgrades. People expected the best functionality from the start, in the small format, it seems that they received the third best option, not the first, hence many feel cheated. I can see why. A customer who feels cheated is not motivated to spend more money at the same shop. We'll see how it goes.
Paid updates in the gaming Console world can really destroy the initial release if the company is relying on “making it better later” and can drop sales/hype really fast. If they make it great first and add more features we want later, then there’s your subscription base.
There needs to be an expectation during the devices life that software is baked into the price and so are upgrades. If you bought an iPhone but they made you pay for upgrades every where when they released new phones you might look at other options. It’s all in the value proposition . At the end of the day there are good devices out there with good support and long term planning in updates. Why would I spend money on something limited like the fractal player when the market has other options.
As I've already said elsewhere, this feels like a push toward a subscription model like phone and computer applications and I am not a fan. I don't care who the manufacturer is, Kemper or otherwise, but this will definitely keep me from buying a Kemper (or any other manufacturer's) product who jumps on the subscription bandwagon. I am unwilling to be bled for this nonsense.
It is not an update. It is an upgrade...like buying IRs or packs or whatever. You still have the same thing you bought. However,I think the first level upgrade could have been free,and the second level paid at a lower cost. $300 to get the functionality, and essentially raising the price that it is comparable to other units, new or used, was not the best strategy.
Updates should be free unless the manufacturer specifically states from advertising and point of sale that they are not. Manufacturers vary a lot as to how frequently they provide updates as well.
If you release a product, especially a piece of professional audio equipment I think first and foremost what you're paying for you should get... With the Kemper player. People I suppose did get what they paid for. The biggest issue I think I have is the news that they released a product and intentionally software locked / limited the available DSP of the device knowing they could upsell 'addons' later on rather than releasing the best possible version of the product. Especially when the price point is already on the higher end and with a preowned market almost rendering the kit redundant they're shooting themselves in the foot. This is very much an Apple or EA Games move and I don't think people expect that from a brand as historically reliable and respected as Kemper. But I, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest others just don't like the Apple-fication of yet more products and services. People want to get what they pay for and best deal possible with the assumption that there will be meaningful updates and LTS. And pushback is the best way to voice dissatisfaction with this sort of pricing model, I don't think anyone wants to encourage other units to follow down this same path. But to answer the question I think it's reasonable to receive long-term support for a professional piece of audio equipment for free and potentially for years to come. You're investing in a product and committing to an ecosystem and the brand needs to respect the trust given to them by musicians, whether hobbyist or professional. And trust is important. As a Kemper Stage owner and completely unaffected by this it's disappointing to hear they've taken this route and broken that trust. Ngl it has kinda made me want to just get out of the ecosystem, especially having seen so much good stuff from Line 6 and Fractal on the channel.
If I could get a significant increase is functionally e.g. as the example you give amp models into the HX effect, I definitely pay for that. But not for bug fixes, a couple of extra effects, amps, IR etc.
I think that Kemper should declare their intentions up front. So for £700 you can get the player, but you should be aware that in the future, paid upgrades will be available. That allows you to decide what device you want with full disclosure.
Reviewing their website, I have a better understanding of what they are trying to do. I think "add on" is a better term than "upgrade". However, this still challenges how we should categorically think about products like these. Are they an all-in-one packed product or should we be thinking of them as computers--a device with baseline software and OS that is a platform to add on to. Also, the cost of the add ons is not cheap--putting total cost of ownership over $1k. That would tell me that this is intending to compete with the FM3s, not Tonex. But I would expect at least a screen on a device at that price.
I know you started with the POD XT as an example, but you skipped quite a bit. After the XT you had the POD X3, which has the same DSP as the XT but with dual rig possibilities and all the model packs you had to buy on the XT line. They also had units based on the same DSP technology which were only the effects with the M5, M9 and M13. And they usually did those after releasing their flagship unit. Line 6 is pretty much following the same business model. They're even still selling the Pocket POD.
It is clear that the device was crippled on purpose to make people buy them for relatively less money, then bring the update which reveals that the cpu in there could have handled everything on the start. Good point that the hardware already justifies the cheaper price. I think kemper did a really bad move here. And I think they will pay for it. Especially considering what comes out in a few days from a competitor. Looking forward to that. Lol.
What I will say as a live sound tech is that paying for upgrades isn’t new. A lot of live consoles have updates and DSP updates locked behind pay walls, which is unfortunate that paying 5 figures for a product doesn’t get you everything on offer. It is a shame to see it start in the guitar world it seems. Hope it doesn’t stay.
As a consumer, I am concerned that this approach will become the norm. If so, the base price should be much lower and it is up to you how far you go. However, this would make me reluctant. I prefer the product to be complete and if the price is high, the updates should be free. I think the time has come to buy more second hand. We have had enough devices with very good quality and sound for many years, it is not necessary to buy the latest, be it the Kemper or the Mini Quadcortex. We would have more for less money, don't go crazy. It is the only way for these companies to think again and be less greedy.
They should look to the most successful company in history for the business model. The iPhone business model makes money by selling hardware. Apple’s software updates are free, but you can buy add-ons. That’s how it should be.
The issue is not "should upgrades be free", but rather, " is it fraud to arbitrarily lock features that are already in your product in order to extract more money from paying customers after the sale?"
All this tells me it was either a loss leader or Kemper profit margins are much greater than originally thought because these aren't "upgrades", they're unlocks - the hardware capability was there from the start, as must have been this strategy.
The main reason I didn’t look at the Kemper player was the lack of a normal Midi I/O and that their effects are pretty average. To pay extra for a parallel signal path is just plain stupid in my view
As has been pointed out by TorcuatoMarianoOficial on another video - " *the Kemper Player with this upgrade costs the same as an FM 3 which is infinitely more professional and more complete* " Ultimately its your money, throw it at whatever you choose , thats the wonderful thing about Capitalism, we get to vote with our wallets
Saying "people just want free upgrades" confuses the issue. Charging for upgrades is not what's offensive about this. What's really happening here is that kemper sold a unit with x, y, and z capabilities and charged the price that would cover said capabilities plus a profit margin... but they intentionally and arbitrarily neutered the unit of the Y and Z capabilities so they could extort more money from the customer after the sale... They are not upgrading these units. You can't add memory to a computer with a download, they shipped it 625 Rigs! The unit had all these capabilities the day they sold it, and therefore the cost of these capabilities has already been born in the original sale price... we shouldn't even be calling these upgrades, we are playing into their narrative by calling these upgrades. You're not paying for upgrades you're just paying for the rest of what the unit already could do when you bought it... this is a stick up.
Kemper should have been up front about having to pay for new capabilities. The industry model has been free updates. Folks who bought one before got shafted. Folks who buy one now can make an informed decision.
It's a terrible thing. Few pedals even are capable of updates, and those that aren't - no one complains about those! We bought what we bought. However when you make us pay money for something and already have plans for upgrades (essentially inactive/deactivated features), then demand more money for the stuff the pedal is already 100% made to support, that's shady. Make an v2 - there's your money and development. Everyone else has been doing it that way until like the last 12 years, it's been working just fine. We want pedals that we actually own, imagine if they go a subscription model next... it's not as far-fetched as you'd think.
I already asked this qustion on the Kemper forum: if you buy a BOSS overdrive, why do you think they should give you chorus and delay for the same price?
I would think charging for upgrades is fine, however, paid updates is where I think there could be issues. As I said, would you buy a Helix today (full price) if it were at firmware 1.0 and all the existing firmware updates cost several hundred dollars?
I hope your pardon me saying so, but these aren’t paid updates, they’re paid upgrades. The die has long been cast with regard to software upgrades when it comes to features in cars. And I think that tone junkie made an excellent point about the fact that this device can be bought an affordable price and kept that way for people who don’t need more advanced features. But it’s also expandable at the cost of a firmware upgrade to add more features people might need and can afford.
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a subscription type service, provided that the hardware is sold at a loss similar to how most gaming consoles are. If the entry cost is low and there's significant value in the updates then I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing, but kempers implementation here is obscene.
If modeling companies start making paywalls for updates, I will go back to amps. It’s not ideal especially in my current situation, but it will guarantee that features aren’t stuck behind a paywall. It’s a very bad business model in my opinion. I switched to modelers about 6 years ago and I don’t want to go back, but if it’s what I have to do, I will do it. I can maybe understand paying for amp packs, but I think in the near future there won’t be a need because of capturing. The modeling industry is evolving very quickly and I’m terrified if this is the next phase.
The beauty of competition in capitalism is that it lets these choices play out. In their effort to make more profits and keep their company healthy it may actually send more buyers to line6 and fractal and maybe not. Time will tell and competition helps us all get the best product value for our dollars.
So would people have been more happy with 2 products instead? A Kemper Player Lite and a Kemper Player Pro ? Let's say the Pro would cost €1000 like the current Kemper Player with both upgrades, and the Lite costing €700 like the current Kemper Player without upgrades? Seems to me that being able to upgrade your unit would be preferable to having two products since you can just start with without upgrades and be happy. Or you could upgrade, optionally, and get more out of it. Rather than starting with the Lite, then having to sell that because you want the Pro later. I'm not sure I see a huge issue really. I do agree though that if they don't continue providing free UPDATES (rather than upgrades), that's a bad sign. But Kemper have always maintained that the Player will continue to receive free updates (within the realms of what upgrades you've added). Worth noting that I don't own any Kemper so I don't really have a dog in the fight really.. take my comment as you will.
@@literalghost929 Nothing is for free though. Is there any capture playing device that offers this for free? Other than NAM of course? Genuinely curious.
@@Tanax13 Right, one pays employees for free product upgrades and consumers benefit, the other sells upgrades and the company & stock holders have increased profits. Choose one.
Those are not updates. That was deliberate under feature release to make extra profit later on. And if people will pay for such updates more companies will start doing that. Imagine if line 6 now released a free update that lets all helix units capture amps. That would bring loads of customers! And the argument that helix is 9 years old? Kemper is even older
I have a PC and I bought the NDSP Nameless plugin. I don't understand why I don't get all the other Neural plugins as a free upgrade. I have all the hardware needed for running them. This feels like a scam.
Regarding free updates, keep in mind too that a lot of these products are disposable. They're not like a good tube amp you could keep forever. In that sense these modelers are more expensive over the longer haul. Free updates make more sense in that context. Paid updates isn't really the problem either. I'll pay but I'm not paying for a silly expensive update. And I'm petty--I'm seriously off Kemper. I see no reason roll even consider their preducts given the alternatives.
I don't necessarily feel entitled to all updates + additions, etc...being 100% free 100% of the time. I can be open to the idea of something being worth some extra $$ down the road, especially if the original hardware was not very expensive in the first place. Having said that, IMHO at least, I think the idea of this kind of upgrade that Kemper is doing for $300(!!!) is a giant turn off and marketing disaster. If I buy a $700 player hardware that is already not an especially great value, I'd still be down for the occasional say,...$49 major update option when it has a lot of extra goodies that I actually want. They can shove that $300 asking price you-know-where...lol
Once a company has saturated the market with their hardware, they need a continuous source of revenue or the product dies. But, they have to be really inexpensive for the most part.
yes paid up grade to hz effecys is good becaus it wasnt sold as amp modeler but kemper had it already built to run it so just sell it at 1000 from the get go so i can deceide between differnt modelers at this price range.
Is it unreasonable to expect for upgrades and updates as part of the price of the hardware? Would you be happy to pay for updates going forward for your chosen piece of hardware?
The thing is for me this isn’t a charge for additional ongoing r&d…all of the features that kemper are charging additional hundreds of £’s for were already in place in their other products with the hardware already primed to use.
Nope! Thanks to Kemper for removing their products from researching their products for a potential future purchase. I'll stick with Line 6 or other brands which provide free upgrades.
It is all moot. Hotone, NUX, Mooer, Zoom et al don't have the brand cache to be able to charge. Boss hold the key. I don't believe they will charge. If they don't then the model is dead as Line 6 and Headrush can't surrender the market to them. I mean, I could get 2 x gt1000 core for cost of a player + lvl3 and a midi switcher.
well, a high price suggest that the company doesn’t think that many people will do it so they have to make more off of each purchase. It’s probably also a function of them not selling as many units as they thought they would. So a smaller user base of units means they have to, increase the price.
it’s perfectly reasonable to expect software updates but not necessarily upgrades. The base unit will need to be improved to keep pace with other units on the market so that encourages them to do updates and keep the product competitive. However, upgrading it to a new product that would undercut their existing offerings doesn’t make much sense.
The issue isn't a paid update, but it's that this product was released not long ago and clearly they could have had all those effects included in the first version - this is a marketing and revenue roll out that was done on purpose. It would have been the plan all along and so it's deceiving.
@@Arthur_My_Dear I agree with you about the price, paying this sort of money for an update so soon after a release sets a dangerous precedent for the future.
There is nothing deceiving here. Kemper said that there will be paid upgrades in the future before the Player was even available for sale.
@@racerx3065 I agree, but I’d be surprised if it didn’t end up going that way now, or even worse…the dreaded subscription model
I don’t think there’s any grey area here. Yes, the Kemper has been improving with new features and FX over the years, BUT they have all been around the same price. On the other hand, the Kemper Player is around half the price of the other formats, so you can’t expect to get the same software capabilities of the more expensive units for the original price of the Player How’s that fair?
You want all the capabilities of the more expensive units, but keep the small footprint of the Player? Well, pay more. If these people who are complaining wanted the full functionality they would’ve skipped the Player and gone for the Stage (or any of the other variants). Oh, but it’s twice as expensive. EXACTLY! lol
The upgrade is 43% of the original hardware price. I think that’s the part that’s stinging. And there are BS tiers. Anyone that’s gonna upgrade is gonna want to go all the way. I personally don’t use a Kemper Player but I’d definitely be in the crowd that’s annoyed by this.
purchased a Kemper player 5 days ago ... just submitted return form !!!!!!!!!!
you will probably not be the only one!
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that you have to buy the NDSP plug ins in order to use them on the quad cortex?
I theorized this on ToneJunkie's channel. It's not really anger specifically at Kemper - I do think it's part of the larger phenomenon of subscription disgust/fatigure/intolerance that people are feeling. FINALLY.
When you bought a car in the past and you paid for the power windows package at the time of sale, those power windows were forever features for you. And for the next person if you sell the car.
Now, to mostly to aid manufacturers in simplifying their skus and assembly methods, as well as create a literal slavery chain around consumers' necks forever, you have subscriptions and remote disabling of features. Blame Tesla but they're not the only cultprits.
You know who are wringing their hands in delight and anticipation? Analog pedal and gear makers, waiting to welcome back and embrace us all.
I have a recent Fractal FM3 (Turbo) and have had a constant series of improvements and features all at no extra cost. I really appreciate Fractal's culture of looking after its customer base and not just trying to extract money at every opportunity.
The same can be said for my Tonex pedal and even my Boss GX100 that has just had a recent update providing more features at no cost. I can definitely say I choose products that represent quality, bang for buck and constant improvement at no extra cost.
To each their own, but Kemper charging for its feature sets to be installed just makes me look to other products that dont do this constant money grab from its customers!
Compare it to the videogame market, DLC, microtransactions etc..
I made this same comment, now seeing you beat me by an hour lol But yeah, subscription based amp modeling is a HORRIBLE idea
My thoughts exactly hahaha
Yeah, shite
There is a reason AAA gaming is failing. DLC and MTX are part of that puzzle
@@otfan522botjournalismisdea2except it isn't so idk where you got that idea 😂
I don't think it's "morally wrong" to charge for updates, it's just likely a stupid lose, lose move in practice. Free firmware updates keep products alive and result in free marketing and loyal customers. It's even worse for a product like the Kemper which was of questionable value to begin with.
If this was a free update, I think the kemper player would have become an interesting option compared to a HX Stomp or FM3. As it is it just looks like bad value for the money.
Makes me wonder whether neuraldsp has the same plans with the nanocortex. Given the very limited current feature set it wouldn't surprise me.
Still, it beats GoPro selling software updates as "new" camera every year.
Unless all other follow suit, and it becomes the norm. A loss for consumers, a gain for companies. For those of us old enough to remember, there was a time when you purchased a game and had the full game. Now, you get a half baked semi finished game, and have to purchase your way to complete content. It became the norm.
@@literalghost929 I hope that the barrier to entry for guitar effects is low enough to prevent such enshittification but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
On the positive side, at least some of the companies in the 'AAA' gaming space seem to be suffering from their anti-consumer practices.
We better vote with our wallets. :)
It’s the Apple Modell.
You can spend less to be part of the family but just a little bit more to get to the next, then just a little bit more to get to the next.
So the statistics are clear on that almost all people overbuy and buy stuff they don’t really need
I can see both sides of the argument, but I would be pretty unhappy to buy the player and then realise that it seems to have limited functionality unless I pay out an additional 300 for the full version which I was unaware of unlike the manufacturer who knew all along at its release. I bought a Line 6 Helix LT new a few years ago and the updates have been fantastic and free and I have been so impressed by their product that last week I bought a used Helix floor, using the LT now for students in my teaching studio as well as a backup at gigs. Even though the Helix is a fair few years old now, Line 6 have kept it up to date with excellent updates and it is still a force to be reckoned with. This can only be a good thing as line 6 sell plenty of Helix's in different versions and the purchaser gets an excellent processor with pretty frequent updates.
Hotone/Sonicake/Valeton etc going to start cleaning up with these other companies making these changes. All of a sudden peoples ears won't be able to hear any difference between Kemper Profiler Player and Valeton GP-200. In fact the Valeton might start sounding superior all of a sudden. 😅
Or people go the other way if companies like Fractal hold the line on their current model. Rather pay $1800 up front knowing I'm getting everything for that price than pay $700 now, $300 later, and another $300 next year... Lifetime costs are a factor.
But these middle of the road priced products do not have a clear niche in the market other than truly being middle of the road in price while getting some of the same features as the top of the class gear. One wrong move left or right and the cheaper stuff looks more attractive or the more expensive stuff starts looking reasonable on lifetime cost of ownership and bang for buck.
The Ampero II Stage looks really good too.
Absolutely. And, Boss will be unlikely to charge in an attempt to create a differentiator and get back into the conversation. If Boss don't charge, then Line 6 are stuck, unless they split their product strategy, which gets messy. At that point, it is game over for this model in the main stream.
As I commented on the other video, if manufacturers want to push paid updates, that's their choice. BUT, be honest with consumers and give them the information they need to make an informed choice BEFORE you take their money. Consumers will then vote with their wallets in accordance with which products they feel best meet their needs.
Apparently Kemper always said there would be paid upgrades to the Player, according to folks on the forum
I think a lot of you are missing the point.
I don’t see this bringing in a new era of paid upgrades.
I think in this case it’s very clear that they released a restricted product that’s much cheaper than any other offering and offered upgrades that allow for you to get the specs that match the great kemper range.
One, you don’t have to get these upgrades. They’re still providing updates for the device, they’re simply offering some premium features.
And honestly the reason I don’t think this matters is I believe what they’re doing is offering hardware with tiers of capabilities. Some people don’t want or need those capabilities and they’re going to save the money.
I think the issue is putting functionality behind a paywall and there being no hint at it.
It’s a fairly new product and I think that makes people cynical about it more; was this meant to have this at launch as an option and Kemper just wasn’t ready? If that’s the case, they should have said so at launch that more is coming for a fee.
Right now it feels like the increased functionally itself being gatekept behind a fee to first buy Kemper effects first, then buy the ability to do what you want with them.
Eventide did it better with the H9
I don't miss what I don't have. There is litterally nothing that the Helix or Boss GT 1000 core, or HXFX has omitted (or even the Boss Katana MK1) that I am thinking "yeah I really need that". Something that I would use all the time..and not just forget about after a week.
How many reviews have you seen where the reviewer asks "What were they thinking? Maybe they will fix this in an update" ? Often times those free updates are fixing things that should have never went out the door. Software can get away with hobbling there product and let you pay for added functionality. But they get away with it because 99% of the time that software is free. How would Kemper feel about giving their hardware away for free and make you pay for updates. It is absurd to think that a business model for free software can be applied to hardware. Don't buy any new Kemper players or this will become the norm.
I wonder what would have happened with the amount of units sold if they had included full features since release but increased the price 🧐
People shrieking about it online is not the test of whether this is a good business model. Of course, I have a helix not a kemper.
There is an attention economy, and free upgrades get the product back in the social media spotlight, and people make videos like “ should you own X in 2024.” I bought a helix lt quite late in the game a few years ago, and it’s still churning out updates…
But, does it NEED the updates? I bought a Helix floor when they first came out and I've never updated it. It still sounds great and does more stuff than I'll ever need.
@@jimmyparris9892 that’s fair.
The Kemper Player is a unique case in that it is the ONLY one of the smaller units that you can get to play the exact same presets as its bigger brothers with the upgrade. No software update/upgrade can make the Fractal FM3 play a full fledged preset from the Axe FX3 but the Player, with the Upgrade can play any preset from the Kemper Profiler.
What that is worth, everyone has to decide for themselves.
I think this is not the beginning of some new time period of paid content. This is a one time case for one specific product.
It’s about trust. People bought the cheaper player with the understanding that the limitations were hardware (less DSP) and then they find out Kemper deliberately hamstrung the product to get more money later. Just be up front about it.
There’s also this unspoken agreement that we buy half-finished products now believing the company will fix it later (quad cortex started this trend, and the Kemper player still can’t do dual button presses yet etc.) This falls apart if we aren’t sure the fix will be a paid upgrade.
Not sure if its the same thing, but in a way, Fractal have started doing this as well. They came out with Dyna Cabs which is their improved speaker cab modelling. They offered a number of free cab selections during one of their firmware updates earlier this year. Now if you want additional cab models, you have to pay them.
DynaCab is a completely different business model. AxeFx users got a free update with free DynaCabs. Paid DynaCabs cannot be loaded into AxeFx. They require a CabLab DAW plugin. So it is more like TwoNotes cabinets which can be used in your DAW not just AxeFx units
It is easy... The total amount of money a company needs to make does not change significantly. If you pay more for the hardware or the software does not matter. Comparing a small company like Kemper to Yamaha/Line 6 (volume) or Fractal (horrendous hardware prices) does not work. Also, Kemper builds products in a first world country with qualified adults, social security, health insurance, fair salaries, proper vacation eligibility etc. If you want to still have a proper job yourself in the future, you might want to support them. Also, compare the Kemper Player to UA and Strymon one trick pedals... it will look like quite a bargain.
Musicians are already broke . Lol
I dont think is good idea to start charging people. I can only assume the company is about to go broke and they're just looking for a way to get money 💰 🤑 💸
So I guess everyone would feel better about this if they initially released the Player with full capability and sold it for $1000??? I think it makes sense to have a lower initial costs and then pay for added functionality if/when I decide it's needed. At the end of the day the Player is a much smaller unit and has the same capabilities as the Stage (not including captures, which I could care less about)and at $700 or $1000, it's still quite a bit less than the Stage!! What's the problem here??
This is happening in every industry. Guitarists have an advantage in that they can just stick to analog amps. Plus analog sounds better.
But you don't get 100 different amp models, and 300 pedals, in one analog amp. Guitards seem to be the only people on the planet who think they only have to pay for one item then all of the other items should be free forever.
since the player is designed to be integrated with other pedals, this seems to make sense to me to provide upgrades for people who want fewer pedals and have the unit do more things. if you have taken into account the cost, it would take to have that functionality through buying other petals. Then the cost is comparable. this makes the player more flexible, which should be a good thing.
I am a software engineer by trade. Software costs money to make, and sometimes upgrades might be costlier than people may think, so paying for a software upgrade is not necessarily something unheard of. I think the problem is that getting hardware in the market to artificially limit it, and unlock its full capacity through a paid for upgrade is the "dodgy" part IMHO. It would be different to provide the full capabilities and suggest that more effects, models are to be paid for and different to suggest that in order to use the full capacity of the hardware that has been purchased already, you need to pay extra. If it was just software, it would have probably been acceptable. If it was restricted hardware sold at 70% of the more powerful/featureful one and they are both available at launch time and you choose the one you want, people would not necesarily complain, even if the outcome would be what is happening now. Pushing the upgrade as a tiered subscription though, so shortly after launch, seems like a calculated move, and definitely bad marketing
The Helix is the first time Line 6 offered free updates. The previous models like the xt and hd had diffetent add on packs you had to purchase.
It’s all context. When the player was released, it was assumed that since it only came with a streamlined number of their effects that it didn’t even have the DSP to do all their advanced delays and reverbs and things., let alone the same 8 effect signal path as the stage and head.
The player basically came with the effects that the original 2012 head came with, but with fewer things to tweak in the amp and cab section and half as many effects blocks. (So in less than one year after release, player owners were offered the ability to double the number of effects and access 12 years worth of developments. It’s one thing to “get those things for free” while sticking with the unit for 12 years, it’s quite another to be offered all of that development all at once on top of doubling the number of effects. Had the other days upgrade been free, it would be the most massive free update in the history of guitar technology, vastly exceeding anything that people who bought the player could’ve expected to have gotten. The stage is currently $1500 and was 1700 not long ago. To get everything that it is capable of minus the foot switches, screen and an effects loop, would make the $700 base price of the player way underpriced in comparison. Typically people price their levels of gear in a way that the best bargain is getting the most expensive version. $1000 for the unit and all the possible upgrades seems about the right price when the flagship version that would only add foot switches and a couple jacks in a screen is $500 more.
On the other hand, such a small unit with only 3 foot switches, it seems overkill to pay for level 3 when level 2 gets you all the effects. The whole point of having such a small unit is because you plan to use it with other effect pedals.
(by the way, little discussed is the fact that they just offered a free update the other day to give the player all the expanded amp and cab adjustsments.
The reason I bought a Line 6 Helix this month is because despite being nearly 10 years old, ANCIENT in terms of modeling tech, Line 6 has supported it in a way that shows it doesn’t need to be changed. I don’t have to worry about it being outdated by a new product release every year, I don’t have to worry about it having promised features at launch that still haven’t come out a couple years later, and I don’t have to worry about the hardware capabilities it shipped with being locked behind a paywall.
These are the reasons Line 6 has built such a trusted position with musicians that they still buy a device from 2015 in 2024 as opposed to something from Fractal, Neural DSP, or Kemper.
The example I keep using for this blunder of a decision from Kemper is this. If I were to buy a car and find out that the company that made it limits the engine to 50% of its power until I give them more money to “unlock” what it was meant to do from the factory, I would ensure that I’d never give that brand another penny for the rest of my life.
If the company does updates to keep their existing hardware relevant and saves them having to produce new devices then what's the problem? If your Kemper is now sounding as great as a QC or Fractal then you've just made your place in the game more secure and you still have a viable product. Free firmware updates should be the norm, extra software is a different case.
This has indeed put me off Kemper for life.
Yes - Updates and software Upgrades should Always be Free - Till they come out with the Next Generation Hardware. How many Agree?
I agree, I’m sick of software as a service.
I do not agree, your statement makes no logical sense long term.
@@FEV369 Apple products.
Hahahah
Yep, not purchasing any kemper product in the future because of this. Consumers should vote with their money on this issue.
If you chose to buy the Kemper Player, you opted into living without the features that you now can buy with the new upgrade. If you so desire you can spend the money and extend the unit or you just leave it like it is.
I don't see why there is a problem at all.
Saying that the DSP has been there already does not change this. With that argument companies would have to give away all of their plugins for free, because we already have the hardware to run them on. We can't expect everything to be free. That's just ridiculous.
I can't seem to get into modeling, not the name brand big ones. I have the Dream from UA and use my 7 sting through the Ampeg SGT-DI, I look at the simplifier as well. To me the modelers are basically a scam, they cost a ton, fail to give players the amp in the room feel and have add on's for more cost, that's not new.
I think modelers distortion sound like trash, most the time. You don't get all pedals out there, in fact you get a very limited amount... so if you want that odd pedal you must add that to the cost. When all in, most of these devices cost around 4k, but resale ain't close to that, so you're all living in a dream world. No, you can't pretend your 2k modeler sounds great through 300$ monitors or that adding other pedals, covers, buttons ect don't add to a modeler cost... they all do.
As for the topic this is how I see it... If a company gives you a board/pedal then all updates should be free outside of new amps/pedals/cabs. All the functionality that Kemper locked behind a paywall despite the unite as is being capable of it was just bad business practice. Keeping your unit up to date and working optimally is expected, additions like sounds should cost more because that takes real work and was never expected. That is how these companies compete, who has the best working unit as any given time... What YOU add should be on you... just like any real life pedal. YOU should pick what you want and don't want for amps/cabs/pedals ect. The idea that you get 200 amps, 600 pedals and endless cabs is mindless because in the end 99% of you will use 3-5 amps, 4-6 cabs and the same 10-12 pedals and that's the real joke of it all... You're paying tons for quite a small amount.
All that being said, when companies release updates they should consider also giving some new cabs/amps/pedals for free as promotions.
Paying extra so that my car can go above 60mph a year later is not the same as paying for XM radio in it... That being said, pedals should NEVER move to subscription, when they do it will be their death.
As a longtime Kemper (Stage) user, I've really appreciated all the free updates over the past 5 years I've had the unit. And I know Profilers had been receiving free updates prior to my purchasing my Stage for far longer. But that said, I do agree with some of the negative comments regarding paid updates. Sure, a manufacturing company is not a charitable organisation and has got to be able to make money. However, as you've said, I think there are any number of ways Kemper could've handled this far more skilfully than they did. I for one would not be interested in a subscription model, having been burned by the likes of Adobe and others, and I've found the additional 'upgrades' are mostly not worth the price of subscription. So I think some transparency is what's needed most. For example, if Kemper (or whoever) were to offer a product that comes with 5 years of free upgrades (or whatever), along with a list of proposed future upgrades, at least customers would know what to expect. But that's just one possibility. Prior to this I've always loved my Kemper gear and have been willing to sing its praises (mostly by allowing my sounds to speak for themselves), but I also don't believe in blind brand loyalty. If I find a product priced more appropriately that also sounds better and is easier to use, I'll go with that instead. Cheers!
To hell with Kemper. Software was already destroyed with the rental model and now we have to deal with this. I hope someone hacks the thing and offers the hack for free. Freaking people sitting there with 4 Kempers in a room of vintage amps going "gee its just money"
Ok, without being cheeky this time - As companies develop products like this, it takes a lot of work, there is a finite customer base. And so the revenue stream can also be finite. That’s not a great business model for companies that want to grow. But as companies get into the software side of it, the business model for software can be an ongoing revenue stream via updates. For the business this makes sense. For the customer, not so much. And this has happened in the software side of business for decades. Sell a usable but not comprehensive piece of software, and offer upgrades or a pro version for a fixed price or via subscription model. If you look around at all avenues of business, that the direction everyone wants to move. Less dependence on the physical, and more dependence on the thing they can sell you over and over - software.
They intentionally crippled it at launch to make more money down the road. If they're going to do that it should be 50 or 100 max. 1 thing about line 6 is they're owned by yamaha so they have deep pockets to invest for the long haul. Same with fender which is why I'm optimistic about the TMP.
Yeah, I’d have snapped up a Player this weekend if the upgrade to L3 was £99. £300 though, it’s too much.
Hmm jury is still out for me on that
If they see that users will justify the cost
I could see fender releasing a ‘special’ hand crafted amp pack
As a paid upgrade in the future
I hope not but if there’s profit to be had !!
Depends on the upgrade. Like you said if hx effects could now opetare and run models, that's a worth-while extra expense for the user, and is something that was not on tbe cards remotely when the product was launched.
Same thing with QC. No plug in discount for people who own the hardware? Probably is where things are going unless there's enough blowback to keep manufacturers at bay.
Well, if updates cost money they can't expect that people will buy their products after launch. "Oh, a new Kemper hardware? I'll buy it in 2-3 years then". 🤔
As I see it, personally just bought an FM9 (costs 133% in EU of what US are paying), for that high price I EXPECT updates to be included. Thats what I take into consideration when buying it.
I’m a Quad Cortex user and like their model where the plugins are optional with payment. I dislike the idea of adding features to the device for money. Charging for optional stuff like amp packs is probably ok in my book.
Great stuff as always Jon! 😊
Spend your money on guitar lessons folks, and be as good as johnathan there.
Or don't have guitar lessons and be as good as Guthrie Govan
Best comment I read today!
Agree that the way they did it was bad. If they did it at launch and you could choose based on what you want/need like the H9 series than I think it would have gone over better. They should spend more time trying to update their capture algorithms and release a new product. Fractal can get new revenue streams because the product cycle doesn’t last forever like the Kemper has.
I don’t think it’s “wrong” for Kemper to do what they did.
I just think in light of the way the industry has changed with Kemper (in the past), helix, and fractal, it has become an industry expectation. And I think that’s one of the very things that has made these three units so successful for so long! So to change that now, I think, maybe detrimental…
Yeah but you still have what you chose to buy
I never thought a RUclips channel releasing content every day could be so interesting. Good job.
I've had a Kemper since they came out, it's been a minute. I decided to buy the pedal version because of all great profiles I already own. If this was what Kemper was going to do they should have been transparent about it. I am bummed I spent that money, especially since I had the old toaster. Kemper knew full well what their customers expected, seems like a bit of a bait and switch. Screw Kemper, I'm done with that company.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I was hoping to hear from some folks who bought the Player (whether those are good or bad)!
@@johnnathancordy Sorry, if I knew someone was actually going to read the comments I would have been more articulate. As an early adopter of the toaster I waited for a bit for Kemper to release updates to make it more usable, and they did, so kudos for that. I have no problem paying for profiles - I own a bunch of M. Britt, Tone Junkie, etc. Similarly with the quad I purchased the Gojira pack, Plini, etc. I purchased the player to update the Kemper hardware and have something gig-worthy, I just didn't expect them to start charging for what I kind of consider core functionality I guess, hence my ill formed outburst. And as a side note most of the LED light on the toaster head have gone out, so it's a bit of guess work these days.
happy that I am not own a kemper player because that update would absolutely pisses me of! way to expensive ...for the full package you get a used kemper stage or even better another product from another brand 😊 the release of the unit was in january or february 24 and now the updates for a lot of money to get the full product ...are we in the gaming industry? 😉
Making clients pay for updates is one thing. Another is the price point itself. Charging three digit amounts is completely unreasonable. I do still own tube amps which I planned to sell once. This won’t happen now. A real Plexi or 800 is fantastic over its entire life span, even if it lives forever. No upgrade needed here.
I am certain they knew how much these upgrades were gonna cost when they originally sold the player. I wonder how many people would’ve bought the player, knowing the upgrade prices. I am a stage user and will continue to be, but I don’t think I would ever buy the player at this point. If I wanted something else, I would get another stage or switch to another company’s product
I had to buy my computer. It came with some software and it'll do more stuff than I'll ever use. It has the capability to do even more, but I'll have to buy the software if I want that functionality. Why should it be any different with digital multi effects pedals?
I think the sore point is that these aren't upgrades, they're updates. The hardware is unchanged, it was always either capable of doing something (processing power, memory etc) or not. The valve amp equivalent would be something like selling you an amp with the half power switch locked in place or the channel selector button locked to clean. Then, down the line, charging you to unlock the switches so you can run it at full power and use the drive channel. I don't think that would go down well and neither has this.
It makes me more concerned then i was already about buying a modeler. The concern about buying something that's basic temporary, and now possibly having to pay an unspecified extra on top to get the full life out of the product. Definitely pushing me even more towards a real tube amp with an attenuator or a loadbox to go silent if needed.
I think the problem with that was the way they did it.
You know, if it was launched with two or three options from the beginning, and the buyer could choose any one I think it would be fine, but they launched a simpler option by taking out things they already have on all of their products, and only a few months later they say, Oh, you know, I can give you some of the things I said I couldn't give you if you pay me a little more.
I think this is the problem.
With advancements in AI, it will become easier to Mod or jailbreak devices, if a User feels a necessary feature isn't being provided by the manufacturer.
At the moment, Line 6 has done a pretty good job. But, if you use Line 6 Ideascale, you regularly see how many users have great product improvement ideas that can be implemented in the software.
Users Mod Guitars, Amps, Pedals, etc. when the provided models don't do quite what they want. This is likely to happen to Modelers. There are several software/firmware Mods I make to my HX Stomp today, if I could.
Cost of software updates and enhancements should be clear at the time of release and/or when purchase is made.
People have bought this device with an implied free updates understanding.
Surely upgrades on a piece of hardware is a better idea than continuous new hardware, that then kills the price of the previous piece of hardware?
How much is a Pod HD500 or Axe-FX2 or Ultra worth today?
Keeping in mind my favourite piece of digital gear today is my Kemper Head I bought 12 years ago...and I can sell it today for more than I paid in 2012.
In video games, many consoles are sold at a loss, which is offset by paying for games and DLCs. If they want to charge for updates, they will have to reduce prices a lot.
There's should at least be a period of time where updates are free. If you've only owned a product for a couple years then updates should be free, but if you've owned a product for almost a decade and they're still coming out with upgrades then I can understand paying for those.
I did briefly consider the Kemper player (because of size) despite the fact that I have never really got on with the platform. With this announcement I am sure glad I did not go down that road. If they brought out a Kemper 2 then that is the paid upgrade route. As I said before aging platform money grab.
To be honest, I’d rather it’d cost a bit more at launch because if it just broke then everything would be covered by warranty… now if I upgrade my player and it breaks, and I get a new though warranty, the update isn’t covered. Hence I got to buy it again.
And they move into the Fractal FM3 price range, which I’m not convinced is where they would want to be.
I’ve owned two racks and now the player. I’ll probably update it at some point but Kemper is moving down a route where I’m not willing to follow… I will probably choose something else next time…
Some say that it wouldn’t be fair if it had all the functionality of the rack or toaster, but it’s more comparable to the stage. It is 10 year old tech, the stage has a screen, fx loop, multiple programmable buttons and much more connection possibilities… and I could get one used for almost what the player cost. The math is easy…
As a bare minimum they should include for the scheme as Eventide where you only need one Max, then the updates apply to the others as well…
Kemper is charging extra for FUNCTIONALITY, not for updates, not for upgrades.
People expected the best functionality from the start, in the small format, it seems that they received the third best option, not the first, hence many feel cheated. I can see why. A customer who feels cheated is not motivated to spend more money at the same shop. We'll see how it goes.
Paid updates in the gaming Console world can really destroy the initial release if the company is relying on “making it better later” and can drop sales/hype really fast. If they make it great first and add more features we want later, then there’s your subscription base.
There needs to be an expectation during the devices life that software is baked into the price and so are upgrades. If you bought an iPhone but they made you pay for upgrades every where when they released new phones you might look at other options.
It’s all in the value proposition . At the end of the day there are good devices out there with good support and long term planning in updates. Why would I spend money on something limited like the fractal player when the market has other options.
As I've already said elsewhere, this feels like a push toward a subscription model like phone and computer applications and I am not a fan. I don't care who the manufacturer is, Kemper or otherwise, but this will definitely keep me from buying a Kemper (or any other manufacturer's) product who jumps on the subscription bandwagon. I am unwilling to be bled for this nonsense.
It is not an update. It is an upgrade...like buying IRs or packs or whatever. You still have the same thing you bought. However,I think the first level upgrade could have been free,and the second level paid at a lower cost. $300 to get the functionality, and essentially raising the price that it is comparable to other units, new or used, was not the best strategy.
Updates should be free unless the manufacturer specifically states from advertising and point of sale that they are not. Manufacturers vary a lot as to how frequently they provide updates as well.
If you release a product, especially a piece of professional audio equipment I think first and foremost what you're paying for you should get... With the Kemper player. People I suppose did get what they paid for. The biggest issue I think I have is the news that they released a product and intentionally software locked / limited the available DSP of the device knowing they could upsell 'addons' later on rather than releasing the best possible version of the product.
Especially when the price point is already on the higher end and with a preowned market almost rendering the kit redundant they're shooting themselves in the foot.
This is very much an Apple or EA Games move and I don't think people expect that from a brand as historically reliable and respected as Kemper. But I, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest others just don't like the Apple-fication of yet more products and services. People want to get what they pay for and best deal possible with the assumption that there will be meaningful updates and LTS. And pushback is the best way to voice dissatisfaction with this sort of pricing model, I don't think anyone wants to encourage other units to follow down this same path.
But to answer the question I think it's reasonable to receive long-term support for a professional piece of audio equipment for free and potentially for years to come. You're investing in a product and committing to an ecosystem and the brand needs to respect the trust given to them by musicians, whether hobbyist or professional. And trust is important. As a Kemper Stage owner and completely unaffected by this it's disappointing to hear they've taken this route and broken that trust.
Ngl it has kinda made me want to just get out of the ecosystem, especially having seen so much good stuff from Line 6 and Fractal on the channel.
If I could get a significant increase is functionally e.g. as the example you give amp models into the HX effect, I definitely pay for that. But not for bug fixes, a couple of extra effects, amps, IR etc.
I think that Kemper should declare their intentions up front. So for £700 you can get the player, but you should be aware that in the future, paid upgrades will be available. That allows you to decide what device you want with full disclosure.
Reviewing their website, I have a better understanding of what they are trying to do. I think "add on" is a better term than "upgrade". However, this still challenges how we should categorically think about products like these. Are they an all-in-one packed product or should we be thinking of them as computers--a device with baseline software and OS that is a platform to add on to. Also, the cost of the add ons is not cheap--putting total cost of ownership over $1k. That would tell me that this is intending to compete with the FM3s, not Tonex. But I would expect at least a screen on a device at that price.
Purchased a Matchless Lightning 18 yrs ago, no upgrades issued yet …. You guys have it easy! 😊
I know you started with the POD XT as an example, but you skipped quite a bit. After the XT you had the POD X3, which has the same DSP as the XT but with dual rig possibilities and all the model packs you had to buy on the XT line. They also had units based on the same DSP technology which were only the effects with the M5, M9 and M13. And they usually did those after releasing their flagship unit. Line 6 is pretty much following the same business model. They're even still selling the Pocket POD.
I feel like with the prices of them, they are already building in the cost of updates into the product. At least for a few years.
It is clear that the device was crippled on purpose to make people buy them for relatively less money, then bring the update which reveals that the cpu in there could have handled everything on the start.
Good point that the hardware already justifies the cheaper price.
I think kemper did a really bad move here. And I think they will pay for it. Especially considering what comes out in a few days from a competitor. Looking forward to that. Lol.
What I will say as a live sound tech is that paying for upgrades isn’t new. A lot of live consoles have updates and DSP updates locked behind pay walls, which is unfortunate that paying 5 figures for a product doesn’t get you everything on offer.
It is a shame to see it start in the guitar world it seems. Hope it doesn’t stay.
As a consumer, I am concerned that this approach will become the norm. If so, the base price should be much lower and it is up to you how far you go. However, this would make me reluctant. I prefer the product to be complete and if the price is high, the updates should be free. I think the time has come to buy more second hand. We have had enough devices with very good quality and sound for many years, it is not necessary to buy the latest, be it the Kemper or the Mini Quadcortex. We would have more for less money, don't go crazy. It is the only way for these companies to think again and be less greedy.
They should look to the most successful company in history for the business model. The iPhone business model makes money by selling hardware. Apple’s software updates are free, but you can buy add-ons. That’s how it should be.
The issue is not "should upgrades be free", but rather, " is it fraud to arbitrarily lock features that are already in your product in order to extract more money from paying customers after the sale?"
All this tells me it was either a loss leader or Kemper profit margins are much greater than originally thought because these aren't "upgrades", they're unlocks - the hardware capability was there from the start, as must have been this strategy.
Bug fixes should be free. New models etc can be paid. But it also depends on price point in general.
The main reason I didn’t look at the Kemper player was the lack of a normal Midi I/O and that their effects are pretty average. To pay extra for a parallel signal path is just plain stupid in my view
As has been pointed out by TorcuatoMarianoOficial on another video - " *the Kemper Player with this upgrade costs the same as an FM 3 which is infinitely more professional and more complete* "
Ultimately its your money, throw it at whatever you choose , thats the wonderful thing about Capitalism, we get to vote with our wallets
Saying "people just want free upgrades" confuses the issue. Charging for upgrades is not what's offensive about this. What's really happening here is that kemper sold a unit with x, y, and z capabilities and charged the price that would cover said capabilities plus a profit margin... but they intentionally and arbitrarily neutered the unit of the Y and Z capabilities so they could extort more money from the customer after the sale... They are not upgrading these units. You can't add memory to a computer with a download, they shipped it 625 Rigs! The unit had all these capabilities the day they sold it, and therefore the cost of these capabilities has already been born in the original sale price... we shouldn't even be calling these upgrades, we are playing into their narrative by calling these upgrades. You're not paying for upgrades you're just paying for the rest of what the unit already could do when you bought it... this is a stick up.
Kemper should have been up front about having to pay for new capabilities. The industry model has been free updates.
Folks who bought one before got shafted. Folks who buy one now can make an informed decision.
It's a terrible thing. Few pedals even are capable of updates, and those that aren't - no one complains about those! We bought what we bought. However when you make us pay money for something and already have plans for upgrades (essentially inactive/deactivated features), then demand more money for the stuff the pedal is already 100% made to support, that's shady. Make an v2 - there's your money and development. Everyone else has been doing it that way until like the last 12 years, it's been working just fine. We want pedals that we actually own, imagine if they go a subscription model next... it's not as far-fetched as you'd think.
I already asked this qustion on the Kemper forum: if you buy a BOSS overdrive, why do you think they should give you chorus and delay for the same price?
I would think charging for upgrades is fine, however, paid updates is where I think there could be issues. As I said, would you buy a Helix today (full price) if it were at firmware 1.0 and all the existing firmware updates cost several hundred dollars?
I hope your pardon me saying so, but these aren’t paid updates, they’re paid upgrades. The die has long been cast with regard to software upgrades when it comes to features in cars. And I think that tone junkie made an excellent point about the fact that this device can be bought an affordable price and kept that way for people who don’t need more advanced features. But it’s also expandable at the cost of a firmware upgrade to add more features people might need and can afford.
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a subscription type service, provided that the hardware is sold at a loss similar to how most gaming consoles are. If the entry cost is low and there's significant value in the updates then I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing, but kempers implementation here is obscene.
If modeling companies start making paywalls for updates, I will go back to amps. It’s not ideal especially in my current situation, but it will guarantee that features aren’t stuck behind a paywall. It’s a very bad business model in my opinion. I switched to modelers about 6 years ago and I don’t want to go back, but if it’s what I have to do, I will do it. I can maybe understand paying for amp packs, but I think in the near future there won’t be a need because of capturing. The modeling industry is evolving very quickly and I’m terrified if this is the next phase.
I saw a 10 dollar a month subscription for a guitar tuner on the App Store recently
If people are willing to pay they will try it
The beauty of competition in capitalism is that it lets these choices play out. In their effort to make more profits and keep their company healthy it may actually send more buyers to line6 and fractal and maybe not. Time will tell and competition helps us all get the best product value for our dollars.
So would people have been more happy with 2 products instead? A Kemper Player Lite and a Kemper Player Pro ? Let's say the Pro would cost €1000 like the current Kemper Player with both upgrades, and the Lite costing €700 like the current Kemper Player without upgrades?
Seems to me that being able to upgrade your unit would be preferable to having two products since you can just start with without upgrades and be happy. Or you could upgrade, optionally, and get more out of it. Rather than starting with the Lite, then having to sell that because you want the Pro later.
I'm not sure I see a huge issue really.
I do agree though that if they don't continue providing free UPDATES (rather than upgrades), that's a bad sign.
But Kemper have always maintained that the Player will continue to receive free updates (within the realms of what upgrades you've added).
Worth noting that I don't own any Kemper so I don't really have a dog in the fight really.. take my comment as you will.
Why 2 products? Competitors offer those upgrades for free, I just won't buy anything from Kemper.
@@literalghost929 Nothing is for free though. Is there any capture playing device that offers this for free? Other than NAM of course? Genuinely curious.
@@Tanax13 Right, one pays employees for free product upgrades and consumers benefit, the other sells upgrades and the company & stock holders have increased profits.
Choose one.
@@literalghost929 I just want to know who provides this for free so that I can make an informed decision on which one to get.
@@Tanax13 Line 6 offers free firmware, which over the years has added dozens of new effects, new amps, new and improved cab system, etc.
Those are not updates. That was deliberate under feature release to make extra profit later on. And if people will pay for such updates more companies will start doing that. Imagine if line 6 now released a free update that lets all helix units capture amps. That would bring loads of customers! And the argument that helix is 9 years old? Kemper is even older
I have a PC and I bought the NDSP Nameless plugin. I don't understand why I don't get all the other Neural plugins as a free upgrade. I have all the hardware needed for running them. This feels like a scam.
Good idea for an amps and cabs add on to the hx effects. Where do we lobby for that?
Regarding free updates, keep in mind too that a lot of these products are disposable. They're not like a good tube amp you could keep forever. In that sense these modelers are more expensive over the longer haul. Free updates make more sense in that context.
Paid updates isn't really the problem either. I'll pay but I'm not paying for a silly expensive update. And I'm petty--I'm seriously off Kemper. I see no reason roll even consider their preducts given the alternatives.
By that token ,tube amps need servicing , new tubes repairs mods ect but that at least employs skilled tradespeople
I don't necessarily feel entitled to all updates + additions, etc...being 100% free 100% of the time. I can be open to the idea of something being worth some extra $$ down the road, especially if the original hardware was not very expensive in the first place. Having said that, IMHO at least, I think the idea of this kind of upgrade that Kemper is doing for $300(!!!) is a giant turn off and marketing disaster. If I buy a $700 player hardware that is already not an especially great value, I'd still be down for the occasional say,...$49 major update option when it has a lot of extra goodies that I actually want. They can shove that $300 asking price you-know-where...lol
Don't understand why not sell it for 1029 from jump amd market it as a full blown Kemper in a mini format
Once a company has saturated the market with their hardware, they need a continuous source of revenue or the product dies. But, they have to be really inexpensive for the most part.
yes paid up grade to hz effecys is good becaus it wasnt sold as amp modeler but kemper had it already built to run it so just sell it at 1000 from the get go so i can deceide between differnt modelers at this price range.