Is it unreasonable to expect for upgrades and updates as part of the price of the hardware? Would you be happy to pay for updates going forward for your chosen piece of hardware?
The thing is for me this isn’t a charge for additional ongoing r&d…all of the features that kemper are charging additional hundreds of £’s for were already in place in their other products with the hardware already primed to use.
Nope! Thanks to Kemper for removing their products from researching their products for a potential future purchase. I'll stick with Line 6 or other brands which provide free upgrades.
It is all moot. Hotone, NUX, Mooer, Zoom et al don't have the brand cache to be able to charge. Boss hold the key. I don't believe they will charge. If they don't then the model is dead as Line 6 and Headrush can't surrender the market to them. I mean, I could get 2 x gt1000 core for cost of a player + lvl3 and a midi switcher.
well, a high price suggest that the company doesn’t think that many people will do it so they have to make more off of each purchase. It’s probably also a function of them not selling as many units as they thought they would. So a smaller user base of units means they have to, increase the price.
it’s perfectly reasonable to expect software updates but not necessarily upgrades. The base unit will need to be improved to keep pace with other units on the market so that encourages them to do updates and keep the product competitive. However, upgrading it to a new product that would undercut their existing offerings doesn’t make much sense.
The issue isn't a paid update, but it's that this product was released not long ago and clearly they could have had all those effects included in the first version - this is a marketing and revenue roll out that was done on purpose. It would have been the plan all along and so it's deceiving.
I do take your point. On the other hand Kemper offered a product with certain specs at a certain price level. No one had to buy it. Those that did looked at it and thought that it was a fair price for what was on offer *at that time* It’s not like Kemper delivered less than advertised for the product - people got what they knew they were going to get and got what they paid for. Later Kemper offered upgrades to the device and people have that choice. See if it’s worth it and buy it or not. One thing they haven’t done is under-deliver or deceive anyone. They didn’t promise free updates/upgrades for life. Now here comes the grey area: people who bought a KPA 10 years ago *have* had free upgrades for the life of the product and you could argue that it was therefore fair to assume that the same would happen with the Player. The market has changed a lot now though, it’s much more competitive than before - there are lots of devices with similar prices, size, and performance. These companies may be running out of steam as far as new hardware versions go and need to make money from software, which takes a lot of time and investment. If the choice was for the device to stay the same or improve at cost, which would you choose? At least people have that choice. FWIW I wouldn’t mind paying for extra functionality, but I believe the price is too steep and it’s been an own goal. £40 per level would be acceptable to me. Personally, I would get a secondhand KPA stage now, for the same money, but I realise buyers bought the Player for it’s for size as well it’s price
@@Arthur_My_Dear I agree with you about the price, paying this sort of money for an update so soon after a release sets a dangerous precedent for the future.
I don’t think there’s any grey area here. Yes, the Kemper has been improving with new features and FX over the years, BUT they have all been around the same price. On the other hand, the Kemper Player is around half the price of the other formats, so you can’t expect to get the same software capabilities of the more expensive units for the original price of the Player How’s that fair? You want all the capabilities of the more expensive units, but keep the small footprint of the Player? Well, pay more. If these people who are complaining wanted the full functionality they would’ve skipped the Player and gone for the Stage (or any of the other variants). Oh, but it’s twice as expensive. EXACTLY! lol
Musicians are already broke . Lol I dont think is good idea to start charging people. I can only assume the company is about to go broke and they're just looking for a way to get money 💰 🤑 💸
Hotone/Sonicake/Valeton etc going to start cleaning up with these other companies making these changes. All of a sudden peoples ears won't be able to hear any difference between Kemper Profiler Player and Valeton GP-200. In fact the Valeton might start sounding superior all of a sudden. 😅 Or people go the other way if companies like Fractal hold the line on their current model. Rather pay $1800 up front knowing I'm getting everything for that price than pay $700 now, $300 later, and another $300 next year... Lifetime costs are a factor. But these middle of the road priced products do not have a clear niche in the market other than truly being middle of the road in price while getting some of the same features as the top of the class gear. One wrong move left or right and the cheaper stuff looks more attractive or the more expensive stuff starts looking reasonable on lifetime cost of ownership and bang for buck.
Absolutely. And, Boss will be unlikely to charge in an attempt to create a differentiator and get back into the conversation. If Boss don't charge, then Line 6 are stuck, unless they split their product strategy, which gets messy. At that point, it is game over for this model in the main stream.
As I commented on the other video, if manufacturers want to push paid updates, that's their choice. BUT, be honest with consumers and give them the information they need to make an informed choice BEFORE you take their money. Consumers will then vote with their wallets in accordance with which products they feel best meet their needs.
I don't think it's "morally wrong" to charge for updates, it's just likely a stupid lose, lose move in practice. Free firmware updates keep products alive and result in free marketing and loyal customers. It's even worse for a product like the Kemper which was of questionable value to begin with. If this was a free update, I think the kemper player would have become an interesting option compared to a HX Stomp or FM3. As it is it just looks like bad value for the money. Makes me wonder whether neuraldsp has the same plans with the nanocortex. Given the very limited current feature set it wouldn't surprise me. Still, it beats GoPro selling software updates as "new" camera every year.
Unless all other follow suit, and it becomes the norm. A loss for consumers, a gain for companies. For those of us old enough to remember, there was a time when you purchased a game and had the full game. Now, you get a half baked semi finished game, and have to purchase your way to complete content. It became the norm.
@@literalghost929 I hope that the barrier to entry for guitar effects is low enough to prevent such enshittification but I wouldn't want to bet on it. On the positive side, at least some of the companies in the 'AAA' gaming space seem to be suffering from their anti-consumer practices. We better vote with our wallets. :)
I can't seem to get into modeling, not the name brand big ones. I have the Dream from UA and use my 7 sting through the Ampeg SGT-DI, I look at the simplifier as well. To me the modelers are basically a scam, they cost a ton, fail to give players the amp in the room feel and have add on's for more cost, that's not new. I think modelers distortion sound like trash, most the time. You don't get all pedals out there, in fact you get a very limited amount... so if you want that odd pedal you must add that to the cost. When all in, most of these devices cost around 4k, but resale ain't close to that, so you're all living in a dream world. No, you can't pretend your 2k modeler sounds great through 300$ monitors or that adding other pedals, covers, buttons ect don't add to a modeler cost... they all do. As for the topic this is how I see it... If a company gives you a board/pedal then all updates should be free outside of new amps/pedals/cabs. All the functionality that Kemper locked behind a paywall despite the unite as is being capable of it was just bad business practice. Keeping your unit up to date and working optimally is expected, additions like sounds should cost more because that takes real work and was never expected. That is how these companies compete, who has the best working unit as any given time... What YOU add should be on you... just like any real life pedal. YOU should pick what you want and don't want for amps/cabs/pedals ect. The idea that you get 200 amps, 600 pedals and endless cabs is mindless because in the end 99% of you will use 3-5 amps, 4-6 cabs and the same 10-12 pedals and that's the real joke of it all... You're paying tons for quite a small amount. All that being said, when companies release updates they should consider also giving some new cabs/amps/pedals for free as promotions. Paying extra so that my car can go above 60mph a year later is not the same as paying for XM radio in it... That being said, pedals should NEVER move to subscription, when they do it will be their death.
I theorized this on ToneJunkie's channel. It's not really anger specifically at Kemper - I do think it's part of the larger phenomenon of subscription disgust/fatigure/intolerance that people are feeling. FINALLY. When you bought a car in the past and you paid for the power windows package at the time of sale, those power windows were forever features for you. And for the next person if you sell the car. Now, to mostly to aid manufacturers in simplifying their skus and assembly methods, as well as create a literal slavery chain around consumers' necks forever, you have subscriptions and remote disabling of features. Blame Tesla but they're not the only cultprits. You know who are wringing their hands in delight and anticipation? Analog pedal and gear makers, waiting to welcome back and embrace us all.
I don't miss what I don't have. There is litterally nothing that the Helix or Boss GT 1000 core, or HXFX has omitted (or even the Boss Katana MK1) that I am thinking "yeah I really need that". Something that I would use all the time..and not just forget about after a week.
People shrieking about it online is not the test of whether this is a good business model. Of course, I have a helix not a kemper. There is an attention economy, and free upgrades get the product back in the social media spotlight, and people make videos like “ should you own X in 2024.” I bought a helix lt quite late in the game a few years ago, and it’s still churning out updates…
But, does it NEED the updates? I bought a Helix floor when they first came out and I've never updated it. It still sounds great and does more stuff than I'll ever need.
To hell with Kemper. Software was already destroyed with the rental model and now we have to deal with this. I hope someone hacks the thing and offers the hack for free. Freaking people sitting there with 4 Kempers in a room of vintage amps going "gee its just money"
I think the issue is putting functionality behind a paywall and there being no hint at it. It’s a fairly new product and I think that makes people cynical about it more; was this meant to have this at launch as an option and Kemper just wasn’t ready? If that’s the case, they should have said so at launch that more is coming for a fee. Right now it feels like the increased functionally itself being gatekept behind a fee to first buy Kemper effects first, then buy the ability to do what you want with them. Eventide did it better with the H9
But you don't get 100 different amp models, and 300 pedals, in one analog amp. Guitards seem to be the only people on the planet who think they only have to pay for one item then all of the other items should be free forever.
happy that I am not own a kemper player because that update would absolutely pisses me of! way to expensive ...for the full package you get a used kemper stage or even better another product from another brand 😊 the release of the unit was in january or february 24 and now the updates for a lot of money to get the full product ...are we in the gaming industry? 😉
How many reviews have you seen where the reviewer asks "What were they thinking? Maybe they will fix this in an update" ? Often times those free updates are fixing things that should have never went out the door. Software can get away with hobbling there product and let you pay for added functionality. But they get away with it because 99% of the time that software is free. How would Kemper feel about giving their hardware away for free and make you pay for updates. It is absurd to think that a business model for free software can be applied to hardware. Don't buy any new Kemper players or this will become the norm.
I’m a Quad Cortex user and like their model where the plugins are optional with payment. I dislike the idea of adding features to the device for money. Charging for optional stuff like amp packs is probably ok in my book. Great stuff as always Jon! 😊
@@johnnathancordy But there wasn’t a outrage back then but I think people are fed up with these modern day monetizing practices aka subscriptions and hiding content behind a paywall etc.
They intentionally crippled it at launch to make more money down the road. If they're going to do that it should be 50 or 100 max. 1 thing about line 6 is they're owned by yamaha so they have deep pockets to invest for the long haul. Same with fender which is why I'm optimistic about the TMP.
Hmm jury is still out for me on that If they see that users will justify the cost I could see fender releasing a ‘special’ hand crafted amp pack As a paid upgrade in the future I hope not but if there’s profit to be had !!
So I guess everyone would feel better about this if they initially released the Player with full capability and sold it for $1000??? I think it makes sense to have a lower initial costs and then pay for added functionality if/when I decide it's needed. At the end of the day the Player is a much smaller unit and has the same capabilities as the Stage (not including captures, which I could care less about)and at $700 or $1000, it's still quite a bit less than the Stage!! What's the problem here??
All this tells me it was either a loss leader or Kemper profit margins are much greater than originally thought because these aren't "upgrades", they're unlocks - the hardware capability was there from the start, as must have been this strategy.
So would people have been more happy with 2 products instead? A Kemper Player Lite and a Kemper Player Pro ? Let's say the Pro would cost €1000 like the current Kemper Player with both upgrades, and the Lite costing €700 like the current Kemper Player without upgrades? Seems to me that being able to upgrade your unit would be preferable to having two products since you can just start with without upgrades and be happy. Or you could upgrade, optionally, and get more out of it. Rather than starting with the Lite, then having to sell that because you want the Pro later. I'm not sure I see a huge issue really. I do agree though that if they don't continue providing free UPDATES (rather than upgrades), that's a bad sign. But Kemper have always maintained that the Player will continue to receive free updates (within the realms of what upgrades you've added). Worth noting that I don't own any Kemper so I don't really have a dog in the fight really.. take my comment as you will.
@@literalghost929 Nothing is for free though. Is there any capture playing device that offers this for free? Other than NAM of course? Genuinely curious.
@@Tanax13 Right, one pays employees for free product upgrades and consumers benefit, the other sells upgrades and the company & stock holders have increased profits. Choose one.
Perhaps the issue is that people don't think software or music are worth anything. Partly because you can easily copy them and there's no tangible thing to hold. That's why you're on youtube trying to make a living and tickets to concerts are so high because no one would buy your music in the same way we bought albums in the past which we valued. Listen to Guthrie talking about how his family would treat a new album like a major event, taking out the vinyl disc and treating it almost with reverence before playing it. Now even people who will fart on all day about how much they love Govan don't actually buy anything to that end. And software is the same. It's not seen as having any value and any attempt by a developer to get a ROI or to fund development is seen as bad by users. Whereas a plastic or metal box with a few buttons can cost a lot of money and they'll happily pay for it - and the irony is, the box is worth less. Significantly less. People will vastly overpay for guitars and electronics hardware but baulk at paying the price of a cup of coffee for a piece of music or software. And the truth is software is really complicated and expensive to create. The main reason you've gotten free updates is simply because it's difficult to create software that is feature complete and bug free not because they wanted to set some precedent for free updates. I see a few comments saying musicians are broke - well see the above - if people place the same value on your product that you do on software it's just what you deserve isn't it? If you want to go back to the days where average guitar playing got you a cocaine habit and to fly around the world on a private jet, well you'd have to start paying for music again in your millions. And one deluded sole saying if you buy a car with a feature it's yours forever - I'm guessing not old enough to buy a car because if you buy a new car you'll lose 15-35% of your money in the first year and up to 50% by the third - like I say, people are complete idiots if you give them a metal box "ooh, $100k? I'll buy it!" but won't pay $5 for a few songs. Will pay £3 for a coffee and would perhaps waffle about the service and staff costs, but don't think the development team are worth anything. I mean you can make a cup of coffee so try writing a plugin for an effect. A bit more tricky eh? Now think "I placed more value on a teenager pressing the button on a Tassimo than the comp sci phd that developed this software"
Its like games today, micro transactions and paid content. Not my style of business but i see where it is coming, it is all about milking customer and not doing great product. Im just happy i sold my kemper just in time few years ago. I wouldnt be surprised if some company would go full adobe, montlhy fee or you get a pricy brick on your hands.
Making clients pay for updates is one thing. Another is the price point itself. Charging three digit amounts is completely unreasonable. I do still own tube amps which I planned to sell once. This won’t happen now. A real Plexi or 800 is fantastic over its entire life span, even if it lives forever. No upgrade needed here.
I already asked this qustion on the Kemper forum: if you buy a BOSS overdrive, why do you think they should give you chorus and delay for the same price?
Agree that the way they did it was bad. If they did it at launch and you could choose based on what you want/need like the H9 series than I think it would have gone over better. They should spend more time trying to update their capture algorithms and release a new product. Fractal can get new revenue streams because the product cycle doesn’t last forever like the Kemper has.
To be honest, I’d rather it’d cost a bit more at launch because if it just broke then everything would be covered by warranty… now if I upgrade my player and it breaks, and I get a new though warranty, the update isn’t covered. Hence I got to buy it again. And they move into the Fractal FM3 price range, which I’m not convinced is where they would want to be. I’ve owned two racks and now the player. I’ll probably update it at some point but Kemper is moving down a route where I’m not willing to follow… I will probably choose something else next time… Some say that it wouldn’t be fair if it had all the functionality of the rack or toaster, but it’s more comparable to the stage. It is 10 year old tech, the stage has a screen, fx loop, multiple programmable buttons and much more connection possibilities… and I could get one used for almost what the player cost. The math is easy… As a bare minimum they should include for the scheme as Eventide where you only need one Max, then the updates apply to the others as well…
I had to buy my computer. It came with some software and it'll do more stuff than I'll ever use. It has the capability to do even more, but I'll have to buy the software if I want that functionality. Why should it be any different with digital multi effects pedals?
Reviewing their website, I have a better understanding of what they are trying to do. I think "add on" is a better term than "upgrade". However, this still challenges how we should categorically think about products like these. Are they an all-in-one packed product or should we be thinking of them as computers--a device with baseline software and OS that is a platform to add on to. Also, the cost of the add ons is not cheap--putting total cost of ownership over $1k. That would tell me that this is intending to compete with the FM3s, not Tonex. But I would expect at least a screen on a device at that price.
If you try to sell your Kemper in 15 years, you'll get almost nothing for it. If you try to sell a Bludotone or a Two Rock in 15 years, you'll find it's appreciated in value.
There needs to be an expectation during the devices life that software is baked into the price and so are upgrades. If you bought an iPhone but they made you pay for upgrades every where when they released new phones you might look at other options. It’s all in the value proposition . At the end of the day there are good devices out there with good support and long term planning in updates. Why would I spend money on something limited like the fractal player when the market has other options.
I have a recent Fractal FM3 (Turbo) and have had a constant series of improvements and features all at no extra cost. I really appreciate Fractal's culture of looking after its customer base and not just trying to extract money at every opportunity. The same can be said for my Tonex pedal and even my Boss GX100 that has just had a recent update providing more features at no cost. I can definitely say I choose products that represent quality, bang for buck and constant improvement at no extra cost. To each their own, but Kemper charging for its feature sets to be installed just makes me look to other products that dont do this constant money grab from its customers!
What about the people who bought the player and are happy with it the way it is at the lower price point? Who says the player will never receive future updates for free? Would those complaining have been happier if Kemper launched the player at 3 different price points based on the features? Seriously, this is a damned if you do, damed if you don't situation. If you don't like it, don't buy the upgrade or simply sell your Player and get those other products. I bought my toaster in 2012 and have received updates for the the profiler and the Rig Manager to this day. From my perspective, and as an owner of many other brands of modellers, I can say Kemper has been the best purchase in my buying history.
It is easy... The total amount of money a company needs to make does not change significantly. If you pay more for the hardware or the software does not matter. Comparing a small company like Kemper to Yamaha/Line 6 (volume) or Fractal (horrendous hardware prices) does not work. Also, Kemper builds products in a first world country with qualified adults, social security, health insurance, fair salaries, proper vacation eligibility etc. If you want to still have a proper job yourself in the future, you might want to support them. Also, compare the Kemper Player to UA and Strymon one trick pedals... it will look like quite a bargain.
I am a software engineer by trade. Software costs money to make, and sometimes upgrades might be costlier than people may think, so paying for a software upgrade is not necessarily something unheard of. I think the problem is that getting hardware in the market to artificially limit it, and unlock its full capacity through a paid for upgrade is the "dodgy" part IMHO. It would be different to provide the full capabilities and suggest that more effects, models are to be paid for and different to suggest that in order to use the full capacity of the hardware that has been purchased already, you need to pay extra. If it was just software, it would have probably been acceptable. If it was restricted hardware sold at 70% of the more powerful/featureful one and they are both available at launch time and you choose the one you want, people would not necesarily complain, even if the outcome would be what is happening now. Pushing the upgrade as a tiered subscription though, so shortly after launch, seems like a calculated move, and definitely bad marketing
It’s about trust. People bought the cheaper player with the understanding that the limitations were hardware (less DSP) and then they find out Kemper deliberately hamstrung the product to get more money later. Just be up front about it. There’s also this unspoken agreement that we buy half-finished products now believing the company will fix it later (quad cortex started this trend, and the Kemper player still can’t do dual button presses yet etc.) This falls apart if we aren’t sure the fix will be a paid upgrade.
They should look to the most successful company in history for the business model. The iPhone business model makes money by selling hardware. Apple’s software updates are free, but you can buy add-ons. That’s how it should be.
If you chose to buy the Kemper Player, you opted into living without the features that you now can buy with the new upgrade. If you so desire you can spend the money and extend the unit or you just leave it like it is. I don't see why there is a problem at all. Saying that the DSP has been there already does not change this. With that argument companies would have to give away all of their plugins for free, because we already have the hardware to run them on. We can't expect everything to be free. That's just ridiculous.
I don't necessarily feel entitled to all updates + additions, etc...being 100% free 100% of the time. I can be open to the idea of something being worth some extra $$ down the road, especially if the original hardware was not very expensive in the first place. Having said that, IMHO at least, I think the idea of this kind of upgrade that Kemper is doing for $300(!!!) is a giant turn off and marketing disaster. If I buy a $700 player hardware that is already not an especially great value, I'd still be down for the occasional say,...$49 major update option when it has a lot of extra goodies that I actually want. They can shove that $300 asking price you-know-where...lol
Nothing deceiving. Imagine if you bought a stage at over 1K with all of it's features, then the new small unit came out and there were free SW upgrades making it just as capable as the stage but for 5-600$ less. Then you would be upset because you paid double for a few more footswitches and little screens.
Kemper should have been up front about having to pay for new capabilities. The industry model has been free updates. Folks who bought one before got shafted. Folks who buy one now can make an informed decision.
The reason I bought a Line 6 Helix this month is because despite being nearly 10 years old, ANCIENT in terms of modeling tech, Line 6 has supported it in a way that shows it doesn’t need to be changed. I don’t have to worry about it being outdated by a new product release every year, I don’t have to worry about it having promised features at launch that still haven’t come out a couple years later, and I don’t have to worry about the hardware capabilities it shipped with being locked behind a paywall. These are the reasons Line 6 has built such a trusted position with musicians that they still buy a device from 2015 in 2024 as opposed to something from Fractal, Neural DSP, or Kemper. The example I keep using for this blunder of a decision from Kemper is this. If I were to buy a car and find out that the company that made it limits the engine to 50% of its power until I give them more money to “unlock” what it was meant to do from the factory, I would ensure that I’d never give that brand another penny for the rest of my life.
Not sure if its the same thing, but in a way, Fractal have started doing this as well. They came out with Dyna Cabs which is their improved speaker cab modelling. They offered a number of free cab selections during one of their firmware updates earlier this year. Now if you want additional cab models, you have to pay them.
The price to pay for this kemper 2011 tech is ridiculous. You can get a Helix lite for this money and a tonex one which is a much better deal. Buying kemper which in all tests last in all capture devices (because is old tech) does not make any sense.
Ok, without being cheeky this time - As companies develop products like this, it takes a lot of work, there is a finite customer base. And so the revenue stream can also be finite. That’s not a great business model for companies that want to grow. But as companies get into the software side of it, the business model for software can be an ongoing revenue stream via updates. For the business this makes sense. For the customer, not so much. And this has happened in the software side of business for decades. Sell a usable but not comprehensive piece of software, and offer upgrades or a pro version for a fixed price or via subscription model. If you look around at all avenues of business, that the direction everyone wants to move. Less dependence on the physical, and more dependence on the thing they can sell you over and over - software.
I don't own a Kemper, but I guess people are angry because they are starting to understand in the digital world they don't really own anything, just hardware bricks on which other people's software runs (or doesn't). We pay a fair amount for technology, but really don't own any of it, we are just serfs working the lands inside the walled gardens of the keepers of the ecosystems. You have no right to anything, and this behaviour makes that clear. Did Kemper do something wrong? People expect to buy a thing, not a service that potentially keeps on charging to play.
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a subscription type service, provided that the hardware is sold at a loss similar to how most gaming consoles are. If the entry cost is low and there's significant value in the updates then I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing, but kempers implementation here is obscene.
If I could get a significant increase is functionally e.g. as the example you give amp models into the HX effect, I definitely pay for that. But not for bug fixes, a couple of extra effects, amps, IR etc.
Would you pay $1000 for a full functional player? I think that's worth it. If Kemper had waited to release the Kemper with full functionality from the start at $1000, would people still be mad?
It's a terrible thing. Few pedals even are capable of updates, and those that aren't - no one complains about those! We bought what we bought. However when you make us pay money for something and already have plans for upgrades (essentially inactive/deactivated features), then demand more money for the stuff the pedal is already 100% made to support, that's shady. Make an v2 - there's your money and development. Everyone else has been doing it that way until like the last 12 years, it's been working just fine. We want pedals that we actually own, imagine if they go a subscription model next... it's not as far-fetched as you'd think.
The problem is with your premise. These are not "upgrades", they are UNLOCKS to the tangible hardware you hold in your hands. Its giving the *privilege* to access the processing power that was ALWAYS there. Its no different than subscription heated seats. Something that used to be handled by a switch and relay is now an entire CAN model (also expensive) that determines your ability to use the feature based on subscription. The heaters there, you're just not *allowed* to use it until you cough up the cash. With the kemper, the dsp has always been in it and was shipped derated, even though its capability always existed. This is different than updates and features that are PROMISED AND DESCRIBED at the time of purchase. I should be able to expected free updates on a unit that shipped with buggy firmware or UI that is within the confines of the hardwares capability. I shouldn't expect that my hardware is kneecapped from the beginning and then, way later on, I learn the unit has always had more power/dsp/feature capability. This opens up the rabbit hole of right to repair, ownership (if you hold the tangible thing in your hand, but you cant access all of it because of software, do you really OWN it), and whats going to happen to these SAAS units when its years later and the company doesn't have the servers/infrastructure/actual intent to provide the UNLOCK features. Im sure there will be units left un-upgradable forever. Whereas units that just stop getting updates or no longer supported hardware are at least in its best form or have the firmware laying around somewhere online that you can access and update with any machine. Much like my old RP1000, you can get the librarian app - the manual - firmware still to this day on a well over decade old modeler. The people thatre angry about this understand the implications this has on the industry and how this effects us in a farther future.
In video games, many consoles are sold at a loss, which is offset by paying for games and DLCs. If they want to charge for updates, they will have to reduce prices a lot.
Not so far away we will be paying for something your car do it since day 0, but it will be only available by subscribe. Example: heat sits. BMW already tried this and this type of video only reinforces the idea that soon it will be possible because will "just accept". Makes nearly NO SENSE: the equipment is able to do it. Make it do it for free or try to sell another one and we'll see how it goes...
As I've already said elsewhere, this feels like a push toward a subscription model like phone and computer applications and I am not a fan. I don't care who the manufacturer is, Kemper or otherwise, but this will definitely keep me from buying a Kemper (or any other manufacturer's) product who jumps on the subscription bandwagon. I am unwilling to be bled for this nonsense.
Should updates and upgrades always be free? Depends. Firmware updates to resolve genuine bugs in advertised performance should always be free (arguably, legally must be free). Free upgrades for enhancements? I don’t see a particular requirement. You bought a product with advertised functionality. HOWEVER, when your competitors offer free upgrades to functionality, you will obviously shoot yourself in the foot if you don’t offer similar. Free market will take over at that point.
It is not an update. It is an upgrade...like buying IRs or packs or whatever. You still have the same thing you bought. However,I think the first level upgrade could have been free,and the second level paid at a lower cost. $300 to get the functionality, and essentially raising the price that it is comparable to other units, new or used, was not the best strategy.
With advancements in AI, it will become easier to Mod or jailbreak devices, if a User feels a necessary feature isn't being provided by the manufacturer. At the moment, Line 6 has done a pretty good job. But, if you use Line 6 Ideascale, you regularly see how many users have great product improvement ideas that can be implemented in the software. Users Mod Guitars, Amps, Pedals, etc. when the provided models don't do quite what they want. This is likely to happen to Modelers. There are several software/firmware Mods I make to my HX Stomp today, if I could.
I am certain they knew how much these upgrades were gonna cost when they originally sold the player. I wonder how many people would’ve bought the player, knowing the upgrade prices. I am a stage user and will continue to be, but I don’t think I would ever buy the player at this point. If I wanted something else, I would get another stage or switch to another company’s product
There's should at least be a period of time where updates are free. If you've only owned a product for a couple years then updates should be free, but if you've owned a product for almost a decade and they're still coming out with upgrades then I can understand paying for those.
I know you started with the POD XT as an example, but you skipped quite a bit. After the XT you had the POD X3, which has the same DSP as the XT but with dual rig possibilities and all the model packs you had to buy on the XT line. They also had units based on the same DSP technology which were only the effects with the M5, M9 and M13. And they usually did those after releasing their flagship unit. Line 6 is pretty much following the same business model. They're even still selling the Pocket POD.
Surely upgrades on a piece of hardware is a better idea than continuous new hardware, that then kills the price of the previous piece of hardware? How much is a Pod HD500 or Axe-FX2 or Ultra worth today? Keeping in mind my favourite piece of digital gear today is my Kemper Head I bought 12 years ago...and I can sell it today for more than I paid in 2012.
I would think charging for upgrades is fine, however, paid updates is where I think there could be issues. As I said, would you buy a Helix today (full price) if it were at firmware 1.0 and all the existing firmware updates cost several hundred dollars?
since the player is designed to be integrated with other pedals, this seems to make sense to me to provide upgrades for people who want fewer pedals and have the unit do more things. if you have taken into account the cost, it would take to have that functionality through buying other petals. Then the cost is comparable. this makes the player more flexible, which should be a good thing.
The issue is that Kemper designed this product with the capacity to be "updated" with software that would benefit from the full hardware capability. The didn't tell us. They marketed the product with the launch capabilities. We own the hardware once we buy it. For them to limit it and hold ransom after a lie to offer accessiblity to it is a switch and bait, deceptive, unethical, and arrogant move on their part. They knew it would be upgraded. They intentionally (purposeful omission) didn't tell us what it really could do. It's manipulation and just playing us for fools. Don't support.
I did briefly consider the Kemper player (because of size) despite the fact that I have never really got on with the platform. With this announcement I am sure glad I did not go down that road. If they brought out a Kemper 2 then that is the paid upgrade route. As I said before aging platform money grab.
I’m going to call it now, everyone will start charging for upgrades then a few years later one of the big companies will offer free upgrades and be labeled a GAME CHANGER!!!!
What I will say as a live sound tech is that paying for upgrades isn’t new. A lot of live consoles have updates and DSP updates locked behind pay walls, which is unfortunate that paying 5 figures for a product doesn’t get you everything on offer. It is a shame to see it start in the guitar world it seems. Hope it doesn’t stay.
Once upon a time you bought a unit and that was it. You maybe got two updates. That was fine because the unit was sold in a working condition. It was not half finished and beta tested on early adopters. Now we get hardware that ships with promises to add features down the line. So you get a gimped or buggy unit that may never work properly. We did get updates and sweeteners for these units and complaints were few. Now greed (suicide) has set in. The same bugged/gimped hardware but now a subscription to get improvements. I will just wait for a completed unit with all the promised upgrades to appear and I'll get that. Or I'll just buy a unit from someone else. Things all sound good now so chasing the latest game changer is over. I'll just learn to use what I have. The money pool will shrink and Kemper and followers will go out of business. RIP Kemper. I'll stick with people who want to offer a good product and good service. Adobe is getting killed. M$ is pushing the limits of sanity and Kemper says 'hold my beer'.
Depends on the upgrade. Like you said if hx effects could now opetare and run models, that's a worth-while extra expense for the user, and is something that was not on tbe cards remotely when the product was launched. Same thing with QC. No plug in discount for people who own the hardware? Probably is where things are going unless there's enough blowback to keep manufacturers at bay.
If the company does updates to keep their existing hardware relevant and saves them having to produce new devices then what's the problem? If your Kemper is now sounding as great as a QC or Fractal then you've just made your place in the game more secure and you still have a viable product. Free firmware updates should be the norm, extra software is a different case.
As a consumer, I am concerned that this approach will become the norm. If so, the base price should be much lower and it is up to you how far you go. However, this would make me reluctant. I prefer the product to be complete and if the price is high, the updates should be free. I think the time has come to buy more second hand. We have had enough devices with very good quality and sound for many years, it is not necessary to buy the latest, be it the Kemper or the Mini Quadcortex. We would have more for less money, don't go crazy. It is the only way for these companies to think again and be less greedy.
I think the problem with that was the way they did it. You know, if it was launched with two or three options from the beginning, and the buyer could choose any one I think it would be fine, but they launched a simpler option by taking out things they already have on all of their products, and only a few months later they say, Oh, you know, I can give you some of the things I said I couldn't give you if you pay me a little more. I think this is the problem.
john it's by far the worst PR move i have seen in a while, your leading challengers in the market all release the updates for free and yet kemper seem to think its okay to limit it then make you pay in a TIER SYSTEM to unlock its full potential, it's game over for kemper cringe behaviour.
Paid updates in the gaming Console world can really destroy the initial release if the company is relying on “making it better later” and can drop sales/hype really fast. If they make it great first and add more features we want later, then there’s your subscription base.
As has been pointed out by TorcuatoMarianoOficial on another video - " *the Kemper Player with this upgrade costs the same as an FM 3 which is infinitely more professional and more complete* " Ultimately its your money, throw it at whatever you choose , thats the wonderful thing about Capitalism, we get to vote with our wallets
The main reason I didn’t look at the Kemper player was the lack of a normal Midi I/O and that their effects are pretty average. To pay extra for a parallel signal path is just plain stupid in my view
I hope your pardon me saying so, but these aren’t paid updates, they’re paid upgrades. The die has long been cast with regard to software upgrades when it comes to features in cars. And I think that tone junkie made an excellent point about the fact that this device can be bought an affordable price and kept that way for people who don’t need more advanced features. But it’s also expandable at the cost of a firmware upgrade to add more features people might need and can afford.
I think the sore point is that these aren't upgrades, they're updates. The hardware is unchanged, it was always either capable of doing something (processing power, memory etc) or not. The valve amp equivalent would be something like selling you an amp with the half power switch locked in place or the channel selector button locked to clean. Then, down the line, charging you to unlock the switches so you can run it at full power and use the drive channel. I don't think that would go down well and neither has this.
Is it unreasonable to expect for upgrades and updates as part of the price of the hardware? Would you be happy to pay for updates going forward for your chosen piece of hardware?
The thing is for me this isn’t a charge for additional ongoing r&d…all of the features that kemper are charging additional hundreds of £’s for were already in place in their other products with the hardware already primed to use.
Nope! Thanks to Kemper for removing their products from researching their products for a potential future purchase. I'll stick with Line 6 or other brands which provide free upgrades.
It is all moot. Hotone, NUX, Mooer, Zoom et al don't have the brand cache to be able to charge. Boss hold the key. I don't believe they will charge. If they don't then the model is dead as Line 6 and Headrush can't surrender the market to them. I mean, I could get 2 x gt1000 core for cost of a player + lvl3 and a midi switcher.
well, a high price suggest that the company doesn’t think that many people will do it so they have to make more off of each purchase. It’s probably also a function of them not selling as many units as they thought they would. So a smaller user base of units means they have to, increase the price.
it’s perfectly reasonable to expect software updates but not necessarily upgrades. The base unit will need to be improved to keep pace with other units on the market so that encourages them to do updates and keep the product competitive. However, upgrading it to a new product that would undercut their existing offerings doesn’t make much sense.
The issue isn't a paid update, but it's that this product was released not long ago and clearly they could have had all those effects included in the first version - this is a marketing and revenue roll out that was done on purpose. It would have been the plan all along and so it's deceiving.
I do take your point. On the other hand Kemper offered a product with certain specs at a certain price level. No one had to buy it. Those that did looked at it and thought that it was a fair price for what was on offer *at that time* It’s not like Kemper delivered less than advertised for the product - people got what they knew they were going to get and got what they paid for. Later Kemper offered upgrades to the device and people have that choice. See if it’s worth it and buy it or not. One thing they haven’t done is under-deliver or deceive anyone. They didn’t promise free updates/upgrades for life. Now here comes the grey area: people who bought a KPA 10 years ago *have* had free upgrades for the life of the product and you could argue that it was therefore fair to assume that the same would happen with the Player. The market has changed a lot now though, it’s much more competitive than before - there are lots of devices with similar prices, size, and performance. These companies may be running out of steam as far as new hardware versions go and need to make money from software, which takes a lot of time and investment. If the choice was for the device to stay the same or improve at cost, which would you choose? At least people have that choice. FWIW I wouldn’t mind paying for extra functionality, but I believe the price is too steep and it’s been an own goal. £40 per level would be acceptable to me. Personally, I would get a secondhand KPA stage now, for the same money, but I realise buyers bought the Player for it’s for size as well it’s price
@@Arthur_My_Dear I agree with you about the price, paying this sort of money for an update so soon after a release sets a dangerous precedent for the future.
There is nothing deceiving here. Kemper said that there will be paid upgrades in the future before the Player was even available for sale.
@@racerx3065 I agree, but I’d be surprised if it didn’t end up going that way now, or even worse…the dreaded subscription model
I don’t think there’s any grey area here. Yes, the Kemper has been improving with new features and FX over the years, BUT they have all been around the same price. On the other hand, the Kemper Player is around half the price of the other formats, so you can’t expect to get the same software capabilities of the more expensive units for the original price of the Player How’s that fair?
You want all the capabilities of the more expensive units, but keep the small footprint of the Player? Well, pay more. If these people who are complaining wanted the full functionality they would’ve skipped the Player and gone for the Stage (or any of the other variants). Oh, but it’s twice as expensive. EXACTLY! lol
Musicians are already broke . Lol
I dont think is good idea to start charging people. I can only assume the company is about to go broke and they're just looking for a way to get money 💰 🤑 💸
Hotone/Sonicake/Valeton etc going to start cleaning up with these other companies making these changes. All of a sudden peoples ears won't be able to hear any difference between Kemper Profiler Player and Valeton GP-200. In fact the Valeton might start sounding superior all of a sudden. 😅
Or people go the other way if companies like Fractal hold the line on their current model. Rather pay $1800 up front knowing I'm getting everything for that price than pay $700 now, $300 later, and another $300 next year... Lifetime costs are a factor.
But these middle of the road priced products do not have a clear niche in the market other than truly being middle of the road in price while getting some of the same features as the top of the class gear. One wrong move left or right and the cheaper stuff looks more attractive or the more expensive stuff starts looking reasonable on lifetime cost of ownership and bang for buck.
The Ampero II Stage looks really good too.
Absolutely. And, Boss will be unlikely to charge in an attempt to create a differentiator and get back into the conversation. If Boss don't charge, then Line 6 are stuck, unless they split their product strategy, which gets messy. At that point, it is game over for this model in the main stream.
As I commented on the other video, if manufacturers want to push paid updates, that's their choice. BUT, be honest with consumers and give them the information they need to make an informed choice BEFORE you take their money. Consumers will then vote with their wallets in accordance with which products they feel best meet their needs.
Compare it to the videogame market, DLC, microtransactions etc..
I made this same comment, now seeing you beat me by an hour lol But yeah, subscription based amp modeling is a HORRIBLE idea
My thoughts exactly hahaha
Yeah, shite
There is a reason AAA gaming is failing. DLC and MTX are part of that puzzle
@@otfan522botjournalismisdea2except it isn't so idk where you got that idea 😂
I don't think it's "morally wrong" to charge for updates, it's just likely a stupid lose, lose move in practice. Free firmware updates keep products alive and result in free marketing and loyal customers. It's even worse for a product like the Kemper which was of questionable value to begin with.
If this was a free update, I think the kemper player would have become an interesting option compared to a HX Stomp or FM3. As it is it just looks like bad value for the money.
Makes me wonder whether neuraldsp has the same plans with the nanocortex. Given the very limited current feature set it wouldn't surprise me.
Still, it beats GoPro selling software updates as "new" camera every year.
Unless all other follow suit, and it becomes the norm. A loss for consumers, a gain for companies. For those of us old enough to remember, there was a time when you purchased a game and had the full game. Now, you get a half baked semi finished game, and have to purchase your way to complete content. It became the norm.
@@literalghost929 I hope that the barrier to entry for guitar effects is low enough to prevent such enshittification but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
On the positive side, at least some of the companies in the 'AAA' gaming space seem to be suffering from their anti-consumer practices.
We better vote with our wallets. :)
Yes - Updates and software Upgrades should Always be Free - Till they come out with the Next Generation Hardware. How many Agree?
I agree, I’m sick of software as a service.
I do not agree, your statement makes no logical sense long term.
@@FEV369 Apple products.
Hahahah
Yep, not purchasing any kemper product in the future because of this. Consumers should vote with their money on this issue.
I can't seem to get into modeling, not the name brand big ones. I have the Dream from UA and use my 7 sting through the Ampeg SGT-DI, I look at the simplifier as well. To me the modelers are basically a scam, they cost a ton, fail to give players the amp in the room feel and have add on's for more cost, that's not new.
I think modelers distortion sound like trash, most the time. You don't get all pedals out there, in fact you get a very limited amount... so if you want that odd pedal you must add that to the cost. When all in, most of these devices cost around 4k, but resale ain't close to that, so you're all living in a dream world. No, you can't pretend your 2k modeler sounds great through 300$ monitors or that adding other pedals, covers, buttons ect don't add to a modeler cost... they all do.
As for the topic this is how I see it... If a company gives you a board/pedal then all updates should be free outside of new amps/pedals/cabs. All the functionality that Kemper locked behind a paywall despite the unite as is being capable of it was just bad business practice. Keeping your unit up to date and working optimally is expected, additions like sounds should cost more because that takes real work and was never expected. That is how these companies compete, who has the best working unit as any given time... What YOU add should be on you... just like any real life pedal. YOU should pick what you want and don't want for amps/cabs/pedals ect. The idea that you get 200 amps, 600 pedals and endless cabs is mindless because in the end 99% of you will use 3-5 amps, 4-6 cabs and the same 10-12 pedals and that's the real joke of it all... You're paying tons for quite a small amount.
All that being said, when companies release updates they should consider also giving some new cabs/amps/pedals for free as promotions.
Paying extra so that my car can go above 60mph a year later is not the same as paying for XM radio in it... That being said, pedals should NEVER move to subscription, when they do it will be their death.
I theorized this on ToneJunkie's channel. It's not really anger specifically at Kemper - I do think it's part of the larger phenomenon of subscription disgust/fatigure/intolerance that people are feeling. FINALLY.
When you bought a car in the past and you paid for the power windows package at the time of sale, those power windows were forever features for you. And for the next person if you sell the car.
Now, to mostly to aid manufacturers in simplifying their skus and assembly methods, as well as create a literal slavery chain around consumers' necks forever, you have subscriptions and remote disabling of features. Blame Tesla but they're not the only cultprits.
You know who are wringing their hands in delight and anticipation? Analog pedal and gear makers, waiting to welcome back and embrace us all.
I don't miss what I don't have. There is litterally nothing that the Helix or Boss GT 1000 core, or HXFX has omitted (or even the Boss Katana MK1) that I am thinking "yeah I really need that". Something that I would use all the time..and not just forget about after a week.
I wonder what would have happened with the amount of units sold if they had included full features since release but increased the price 🧐
Before Kemper there wasn't a single half descent song recorded with guitar.
TRUE
@@johnnathancordy😉👍
Spend your money on guitar lessons folks, and be as good as johnathan there.
Or don't have guitar lessons and be as good as Guthrie Govan
purchased a Kemper player 5 days ago ... just submitted return form !!!!!!!!!!
People shrieking about it online is not the test of whether this is a good business model. Of course, I have a helix not a kemper.
There is an attention economy, and free upgrades get the product back in the social media spotlight, and people make videos like “ should you own X in 2024.” I bought a helix lt quite late in the game a few years ago, and it’s still churning out updates…
But, does it NEED the updates? I bought a Helix floor when they first came out and I've never updated it. It still sounds great and does more stuff than I'll ever need.
@@jimmyparris9892 that’s fair.
To hell with Kemper. Software was already destroyed with the rental model and now we have to deal with this. I hope someone hacks the thing and offers the hack for free. Freaking people sitting there with 4 Kempers in a room of vintage amps going "gee its just money"
I think the issue is putting functionality behind a paywall and there being no hint at it.
It’s a fairly new product and I think that makes people cynical about it more; was this meant to have this at launch as an option and Kemper just wasn’t ready? If that’s the case, they should have said so at launch that more is coming for a fee.
Right now it feels like the increased functionally itself being gatekept behind a fee to first buy Kemper effects first, then buy the ability to do what you want with them.
Eventide did it better with the H9
This is happening in every industry. Guitarists have an advantage in that they can just stick to analog amps. Plus analog sounds better.
But you don't get 100 different amp models, and 300 pedals, in one analog amp. Guitards seem to be the only people on the planet who think they only have to pay for one item then all of the other items should be free forever.
happy that I am not own a kemper player because that update would absolutely pisses me of! way to expensive ...for the full package you get a used kemper stage or even better another product from another brand 😊 the release of the unit was in january or february 24 and now the updates for a lot of money to get the full product ...are we in the gaming industry? 😉
I never thought a RUclips channel releasing content every day could be so interesting. Good job.
How many reviews have you seen where the reviewer asks "What were they thinking? Maybe they will fix this in an update" ? Often times those free updates are fixing things that should have never went out the door. Software can get away with hobbling there product and let you pay for added functionality. But they get away with it because 99% of the time that software is free. How would Kemper feel about giving their hardware away for free and make you pay for updates. It is absurd to think that a business model for free software can be applied to hardware. Don't buy any new Kemper players or this will become the norm.
I’m a Quad Cortex user and like their model where the plugins are optional with payment. I dislike the idea of adding features to the device for money. Charging for optional stuff like amp packs is probably ok in my book.
Great stuff as always Jon! 😊
Bug fixes should be free. New models etc can be paid. But it also depends on price point in general.
Kemper sucks
Didn’t Eventide H9 have a essential version and H9max version with all algorithms.
The H9 Max appears to have come out about a year later - the H9 Core came out in 2013 from what I can find
@@johnnathancordy But there wasn’t a outrage back then but I think people are fed up with these modern day monetizing practices aka subscriptions and hiding content behind a paywall etc.
They intentionally crippled it at launch to make more money down the road. If they're going to do that it should be 50 or 100 max. 1 thing about line 6 is they're owned by yamaha so they have deep pockets to invest for the long haul. Same with fender which is why I'm optimistic about the TMP.
Yeah, I’d have snapped up a Player this weekend if the upgrade to L3 was £99. £300 though, it’s too much.
Hmm jury is still out for me on that
If they see that users will justify the cost
I could see fender releasing a ‘special’ hand crafted amp pack
As a paid upgrade in the future
I hope not but if there’s profit to be had !!
So I guess everyone would feel better about this if they initially released the Player with full capability and sold it for $1000??? I think it makes sense to have a lower initial costs and then pay for added functionality if/when I decide it's needed. At the end of the day the Player is a much smaller unit and has the same capabilities as the Stage (not including captures, which I could care less about)and at $700 or $1000, it's still quite a bit less than the Stage!! What's the problem here??
All this tells me it was either a loss leader or Kemper profit margins are much greater than originally thought because these aren't "upgrades", they're unlocks - the hardware capability was there from the start, as must have been this strategy.
So would people have been more happy with 2 products instead? A Kemper Player Lite and a Kemper Player Pro ? Let's say the Pro would cost €1000 like the current Kemper Player with both upgrades, and the Lite costing €700 like the current Kemper Player without upgrades?
Seems to me that being able to upgrade your unit would be preferable to having two products since you can just start with without upgrades and be happy. Or you could upgrade, optionally, and get more out of it. Rather than starting with the Lite, then having to sell that because you want the Pro later.
I'm not sure I see a huge issue really.
I do agree though that if they don't continue providing free UPDATES (rather than upgrades), that's a bad sign.
But Kemper have always maintained that the Player will continue to receive free updates (within the realms of what upgrades you've added).
Worth noting that I don't own any Kemper so I don't really have a dog in the fight really.. take my comment as you will.
Why 2 products? Competitors offer those upgrades for free, I just won't buy anything from Kemper.
@@literalghost929 Nothing is for free though. Is there any capture playing device that offers this for free? Other than NAM of course? Genuinely curious.
@@Tanax13 Right, one pays employees for free product upgrades and consumers benefit, the other sells upgrades and the company & stock holders have increased profits.
Choose one.
@@literalghost929 I just want to know who provides this for free so that I can make an informed decision on which one to get.
@@Tanax13 Line 6 offers free firmware, which over the years has added dozens of new effects, new amps, new and improved cab system, etc.
Perhaps the issue is that people don't think software or music are worth anything. Partly because you can easily copy them and there's no tangible thing to hold. That's why you're on youtube trying to make a living and tickets to concerts are so high because no one would buy your music in the same way we bought albums in the past which we valued. Listen to Guthrie talking about how his family would treat a new album like a major event, taking out the vinyl disc and treating it almost with reverence before playing it. Now even people who will fart on all day about how much they love Govan don't actually buy anything to that end. And software is the same. It's not seen as having any value and any attempt by a developer to get a ROI or to fund development is seen as bad by users. Whereas a plastic or metal box with a few buttons can cost a lot of money and they'll happily pay for it - and the irony is, the box is worth less. Significantly less. People will vastly overpay for guitars and electronics hardware but baulk at paying the price of a cup of coffee for a piece of music or software.
And the truth is software is really complicated and expensive to create. The main reason you've gotten free updates is simply because it's difficult to create software that is feature complete and bug free not because they wanted to set some precedent for free updates. I see a few comments saying musicians are broke - well see the above - if people place the same value on your product that you do on software it's just what you deserve isn't it? If you want to go back to the days where average guitar playing got you a cocaine habit and to fly around the world on a private jet, well you'd have to start paying for music again in your millions.
And one deluded sole saying if you buy a car with a feature it's yours forever - I'm guessing not old enough to buy a car because if you buy a new car you'll lose 15-35% of your money in the first year and up to 50% by the third - like I say, people are complete idiots if you give them a metal box "ooh, $100k? I'll buy it!" but won't pay $5 for a few songs. Will pay £3 for a coffee and would perhaps waffle about the service and staff costs, but don't think the development team are worth anything. I mean you can make a cup of coffee so try writing a plugin for an effect. A bit more tricky eh? Now think "I placed more value on a teenager pressing the button on a Tassimo than the comp sci phd that developed this software"
Its like games today, micro transactions and paid content. Not my style of business but i see where it is coming, it is all about milking customer and not doing great product. Im just happy i sold my kemper just in time few years ago. I wouldnt be surprised if some company would go full adobe, montlhy fee or you get a pricy brick on your hands.
Making clients pay for updates is one thing. Another is the price point itself. Charging three digit amounts is completely unreasonable. I do still own tube amps which I planned to sell once. This won’t happen now. A real Plexi or 800 is fantastic over its entire life span, even if it lives forever. No upgrade needed here.
Good idea for an amps and cabs add on to the hx effects. Where do we lobby for that?
I already asked this qustion on the Kemper forum: if you buy a BOSS overdrive, why do you think they should give you chorus and delay for the same price?
Agree that the way they did it was bad. If they did it at launch and you could choose based on what you want/need like the H9 series than I think it would have gone over better. They should spend more time trying to update their capture algorithms and release a new product. Fractal can get new revenue streams because the product cycle doesn’t last forever like the Kemper has.
To be honest, I’d rather it’d cost a bit more at launch because if it just broke then everything would be covered by warranty… now if I upgrade my player and it breaks, and I get a new though warranty, the update isn’t covered. Hence I got to buy it again.
And they move into the Fractal FM3 price range, which I’m not convinced is where they would want to be.
I’ve owned two racks and now the player. I’ll probably update it at some point but Kemper is moving down a route where I’m not willing to follow… I will probably choose something else next time…
Some say that it wouldn’t be fair if it had all the functionality of the rack or toaster, but it’s more comparable to the stage. It is 10 year old tech, the stage has a screen, fx loop, multiple programmable buttons and much more connection possibilities… and I could get one used for almost what the player cost. The math is easy…
As a bare minimum they should include for the scheme as Eventide where you only need one Max, then the updates apply to the others as well…
I had to buy my computer. It came with some software and it'll do more stuff than I'll ever use. It has the capability to do even more, but I'll have to buy the software if I want that functionality. Why should it be any different with digital multi effects pedals?
Reviewing their website, I have a better understanding of what they are trying to do. I think "add on" is a better term than "upgrade". However, this still challenges how we should categorically think about products like these. Are they an all-in-one packed product or should we be thinking of them as computers--a device with baseline software and OS that is a platform to add on to. Also, the cost of the add ons is not cheap--putting total cost of ownership over $1k. That would tell me that this is intending to compete with the FM3s, not Tonex. But I would expect at least a screen on a device at that price.
If you try to sell your Kemper in 15 years, you'll get almost nothing for it. If you try to sell a Bludotone or a Two Rock in 15 years, you'll find it's appreciated in value.
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that you have to buy the NDSP plug ins in order to use them on the quad cortex?
Upgrades can't be free if they invole upgrading a $700 Player with $1,600 Stage feature set. It was never going to happen.
There needs to be an expectation during the devices life that software is baked into the price and so are upgrades. If you bought an iPhone but they made you pay for upgrades every where when they released new phones you might look at other options.
It’s all in the value proposition . At the end of the day there are good devices out there with good support and long term planning in updates. Why would I spend money on something limited like the fractal player when the market has other options.
I have a recent Fractal FM3 (Turbo) and have had a constant series of improvements and features all at no extra cost. I really appreciate Fractal's culture of looking after its customer base and not just trying to extract money at every opportunity.
The same can be said for my Tonex pedal and even my Boss GX100 that has just had a recent update providing more features at no cost. I can definitely say I choose products that represent quality, bang for buck and constant improvement at no extra cost.
To each their own, but Kemper charging for its feature sets to be installed just makes me look to other products that dont do this constant money grab from its customers!
It is a nightmare for kemper. It’s a major red flag
What about the people who bought the player and are happy with it the way it is at the lower price point? Who says the player will never receive future updates for free? Would those complaining have been happier if Kemper launched the player at 3 different price points based on the features? Seriously, this is a damned if you do, damed if you don't situation. If you don't like it, don't buy the upgrade or simply sell your Player and get those other products. I bought my toaster in 2012 and have received updates for the the profiler and the Rig Manager to this day. From my perspective, and as an owner of many other brands of modellers, I can say Kemper has been the best purchase in my buying history.
It is easy... The total amount of money a company needs to make does not change significantly. If you pay more for the hardware or the software does not matter. Comparing a small company like Kemper to Yamaha/Line 6 (volume) or Fractal (horrendous hardware prices) does not work. Also, Kemper builds products in a first world country with qualified adults, social security, health insurance, fair salaries, proper vacation eligibility etc. If you want to still have a proper job yourself in the future, you might want to support them. Also, compare the Kemper Player to UA and Strymon one trick pedals... it will look like quite a bargain.
I am a software engineer by trade. Software costs money to make, and sometimes upgrades might be costlier than people may think, so paying for a software upgrade is not necessarily something unheard of. I think the problem is that getting hardware in the market to artificially limit it, and unlock its full capacity through a paid for upgrade is the "dodgy" part IMHO. It would be different to provide the full capabilities and suggest that more effects, models are to be paid for and different to suggest that in order to use the full capacity of the hardware that has been purchased already, you need to pay extra. If it was just software, it would have probably been acceptable. If it was restricted hardware sold at 70% of the more powerful/featureful one and they are both available at launch time and you choose the one you want, people would not necesarily complain, even if the outcome would be what is happening now. Pushing the upgrade as a tiered subscription though, so shortly after launch, seems like a calculated move, and definitely bad marketing
Don't understand why not sell it for 1029 from jump amd market it as a full blown Kemper in a mini format
It’s about trust. People bought the cheaper player with the understanding that the limitations were hardware (less DSP) and then they find out Kemper deliberately hamstrung the product to get more money later. Just be up front about it.
There’s also this unspoken agreement that we buy half-finished products now believing the company will fix it later (quad cortex started this trend, and the Kemper player still can’t do dual button presses yet etc.) This falls apart if we aren’t sure the fix will be a paid upgrade.
My amp modeler tribalism has made evil laugh so much this past week.
Neural/Kemper LMFAOmuhahaha
They should look to the most successful company in history for the business model. The iPhone business model makes money by selling hardware. Apple’s software updates are free, but you can buy add-ons. That’s how it should be.
If you chose to buy the Kemper Player, you opted into living without the features that you now can buy with the new upgrade. If you so desire you can spend the money and extend the unit or you just leave it like it is.
I don't see why there is a problem at all.
Saying that the DSP has been there already does not change this. With that argument companies would have to give away all of their plugins for free, because we already have the hardware to run them on. We can't expect everything to be free. That's just ridiculous.
I don't necessarily feel entitled to all updates + additions, etc...being 100% free 100% of the time. I can be open to the idea of something being worth some extra $$ down the road, especially if the original hardware was not very expensive in the first place. Having said that, IMHO at least, I think the idea of this kind of upgrade that Kemper is doing for $300(!!!) is a giant turn off and marketing disaster. If I buy a $700 player hardware that is already not an especially great value, I'd still be down for the occasional say,...$49 major update option when it has a lot of extra goodies that I actually want. They can shove that $300 asking price you-know-where...lol
Charging for models/effects/profile/capture/IR's I understand but not for functionality of the unit
Nothing deceiving. Imagine if you bought a stage at over 1K with all of it's features, then the new small unit came out and there were free SW upgrades making it just as capable as the stage but for 5-600$ less. Then you would be upset because you paid double for a few more footswitches and little screens.
Kemper should have been up front about having to pay for new capabilities. The industry model has been free updates.
Folks who bought one before got shafted. Folks who buy one now can make an informed decision.
The reason I bought a Line 6 Helix this month is because despite being nearly 10 years old, ANCIENT in terms of modeling tech, Line 6 has supported it in a way that shows it doesn’t need to be changed. I don’t have to worry about it being outdated by a new product release every year, I don’t have to worry about it having promised features at launch that still haven’t come out a couple years later, and I don’t have to worry about the hardware capabilities it shipped with being locked behind a paywall.
These are the reasons Line 6 has built such a trusted position with musicians that they still buy a device from 2015 in 2024 as opposed to something from Fractal, Neural DSP, or Kemper.
The example I keep using for this blunder of a decision from Kemper is this. If I were to buy a car and find out that the company that made it limits the engine to 50% of its power until I give them more money to “unlock” what it was meant to do from the factory, I would ensure that I’d never give that brand another penny for the rest of my life.
I feel like with the prices of them, they are already building in the cost of updates into the product. At least for a few years.
Not sure if its the same thing, but in a way, Fractal have started doing this as well. They came out with Dyna Cabs which is their improved speaker cab modelling. They offered a number of free cab selections during one of their firmware updates earlier this year. Now if you want additional cab models, you have to pay them.
The price to pay for this kemper 2011 tech is ridiculous. You can get a Helix lite for this money and a tonex one which is a much better deal. Buying kemper which in all tests last in all capture devices (because is old tech) does not make any sense.
It should be free , the hardware support all these upgrade stuff at first they just “remove” it because of this awful marketing
Ok, without being cheeky this time - As companies develop products like this, it takes a lot of work, there is a finite customer base. And so the revenue stream can also be finite. That’s not a great business model for companies that want to grow. But as companies get into the software side of it, the business model for software can be an ongoing revenue stream via updates. For the business this makes sense. For the customer, not so much. And this has happened in the software side of business for decades. Sell a usable but not comprehensive piece of software, and offer upgrades or a pro version for a fixed price or via subscription model. If you look around at all avenues of business, that the direction everyone wants to move. Less dependence on the physical, and more dependence on the thing they can sell you over and over - software.
I don't own a Kemper, but I guess people are angry because they are starting to understand in the digital world they don't really own anything, just hardware bricks on which other people's software runs (or doesn't). We pay a fair amount for technology, but really don't own any of it, we are just serfs working the lands inside the walled gardens of the keepers of the ecosystems. You have no right to anything, and this behaviour makes that clear. Did Kemper do something wrong? People expect to buy a thing, not a service that potentially keeps on charging to play.
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a subscription type service, provided that the hardware is sold at a loss similar to how most gaming consoles are. If the entry cost is low and there's significant value in the updates then I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing, but kempers implementation here is obscene.
If I could get a significant increase is functionally e.g. as the example you give amp models into the HX effect, I definitely pay for that. But not for bug fixes, a couple of extra effects, amps, IR etc.
Would you pay $1000 for a full functional player? I think that's worth it. If Kemper had waited to release the Kemper with full functionality from the start at $1000, would people still be mad?
It's a terrible thing. Few pedals even are capable of updates, and those that aren't - no one complains about those! We bought what we bought. However when you make us pay money for something and already have plans for upgrades (essentially inactive/deactivated features), then demand more money for the stuff the pedal is already 100% made to support, that's shady. Make an v2 - there's your money and development. Everyone else has been doing it that way until like the last 12 years, it's been working just fine. We want pedals that we actually own, imagine if they go a subscription model next... it's not as far-fetched as you'd think.
The problem is with your premise. These are not "upgrades", they are UNLOCKS to the tangible hardware you hold in your hands. Its giving the *privilege* to access the processing power that was ALWAYS there.
Its no different than subscription heated seats. Something that used to be handled by a switch and relay is now an entire CAN model (also expensive) that determines your ability to use the feature based on subscription. The heaters there, you're just not *allowed* to use it until you cough up the cash.
With the kemper, the dsp has always been in it and was shipped derated, even though its capability always existed. This is different than updates and features that are PROMISED AND DESCRIBED at the time of purchase. I should be able to expected free updates on a unit that shipped with buggy firmware or UI that is within the confines of the hardwares capability.
I shouldn't expect that my hardware is kneecapped from the beginning and then, way later on, I learn the unit has always had more power/dsp/feature capability.
This opens up the rabbit hole of right to repair, ownership (if you hold the tangible thing in your hand, but you cant access all of it because of software, do you really OWN it), and whats going to happen to these SAAS units when its years later and the company doesn't have the servers/infrastructure/actual intent to provide the UNLOCK features. Im sure there will be units left un-upgradable forever. Whereas units that just stop getting updates or no longer supported hardware are at least in its best form or have the firmware laying around somewhere online that you can access and update with any machine. Much like my old RP1000, you can get the librarian app - the manual - firmware still to this day on a well over decade old modeler.
The people thatre angry about this understand the implications this has on the industry and how this effects us in a farther future.
In video games, many consoles are sold at a loss, which is offset by paying for games and DLCs. If they want to charge for updates, they will have to reduce prices a lot.
Not so far away we will be paying for something your car do it since day 0, but it will be only available by subscribe. Example: heat sits. BMW already tried this and this type of video only reinforces the idea that soon it will be possible because will "just accept". Makes nearly NO SENSE: the equipment is able to do it. Make it do it for free or try to sell another one and we'll see how it goes...
As I've already said elsewhere, this feels like a push toward a subscription model like phone and computer applications and I am not a fan. I don't care who the manufacturer is, Kemper or otherwise, but this will definitely keep me from buying a Kemper (or any other manufacturer's) product who jumps on the subscription bandwagon. I am unwilling to be bled for this nonsense.
Should updates and upgrades always be free? Depends. Firmware updates to resolve genuine bugs in advertised performance should always be free (arguably, legally must be free). Free upgrades for enhancements? I don’t see a particular requirement. You bought a product with advertised functionality. HOWEVER, when your competitors offer free upgrades to functionality, you will obviously shoot yourself in the foot if you don’t offer similar. Free market will take over at that point.
It is not an update. It is an upgrade...like buying IRs or packs or whatever. You still have the same thing you bought. However,I think the first level upgrade could have been free,and the second level paid at a lower cost. $300 to get the functionality, and essentially raising the price that it is comparable to other units, new or used, was not the best strategy.
With advancements in AI, it will become easier to Mod or jailbreak devices, if a User feels a necessary feature isn't being provided by the manufacturer.
At the moment, Line 6 has done a pretty good job. But, if you use Line 6 Ideascale, you regularly see how many users have great product improvement ideas that can be implemented in the software.
Users Mod Guitars, Amps, Pedals, etc. when the provided models don't do quite what they want. This is likely to happen to Modelers. There are several software/firmware Mods I make to my HX Stomp today, if I could.
I am certain they knew how much these upgrades were gonna cost when they originally sold the player. I wonder how many people would’ve bought the player, knowing the upgrade prices. I am a stage user and will continue to be, but I don’t think I would ever buy the player at this point. If I wanted something else, I would get another stage or switch to another company’s product
The Helix is the first time Line 6 offered free updates. The previous models like the xt and hd had diffetent add on packs you had to purchase.
There's should at least be a period of time where updates are free. If you've only owned a product for a couple years then updates should be free, but if you've owned a product for almost a decade and they're still coming out with upgrades then I can understand paying for those.
I know you started with the POD XT as an example, but you skipped quite a bit. After the XT you had the POD X3, which has the same DSP as the XT but with dual rig possibilities and all the model packs you had to buy on the XT line. They also had units based on the same DSP technology which were only the effects with the M5, M9 and M13. And they usually did those after releasing their flagship unit. Line 6 is pretty much following the same business model. They're even still selling the Pocket POD.
Ole Blue k line has returned, you must have cleaned her good!!!!
Surely upgrades on a piece of hardware is a better idea than continuous new hardware, that then kills the price of the previous piece of hardware?
How much is a Pod HD500 or Axe-FX2 or Ultra worth today?
Keeping in mind my favourite piece of digital gear today is my Kemper Head I bought 12 years ago...and I can sell it today for more than I paid in 2012.
I would think charging for upgrades is fine, however, paid updates is where I think there could be issues. As I said, would you buy a Helix today (full price) if it were at firmware 1.0 and all the existing firmware updates cost several hundred dollars?
since the player is designed to be integrated with other pedals, this seems to make sense to me to provide upgrades for people who want fewer pedals and have the unit do more things. if you have taken into account the cost, it would take to have that functionality through buying other petals. Then the cost is comparable. this makes the player more flexible, which should be a good thing.
The issue is that Kemper designed this product with the capacity to be "updated" with software that would benefit from the full hardware capability. The didn't tell us. They marketed the product with the launch capabilities. We own the hardware once we buy it. For them to limit it and hold ransom after a lie to offer accessiblity to it is a switch and bait, deceptive, unethical, and arrogant move on their part. They knew it would be upgraded. They intentionally (purposeful omission) didn't tell us what it really could do. It's manipulation and just playing us for fools. Don't support.
Goodbye Sir Kemper, grift master you are.
Taxes have gone up significantly in Germany, they're getting desperate 🤣
I did briefly consider the Kemper player (because of size) despite the fact that I have never really got on with the platform. With this announcement I am sure glad I did not go down that road. If they brought out a Kemper 2 then that is the paid upgrade route. As I said before aging platform money grab.
I’m going to call it now, everyone will start charging for upgrades then a few years later one of the big companies will offer free upgrades and be labeled a GAME CHANGER!!!!
What I will say as a live sound tech is that paying for upgrades isn’t new. A lot of live consoles have updates and DSP updates locked behind pay walls, which is unfortunate that paying 5 figures for a product doesn’t get you everything on offer.
It is a shame to see it start in the guitar world it seems. Hope it doesn’t stay.
Once upon a time you bought a unit and that was it. You maybe got two updates. That was fine because the unit was sold in a working condition. It was not half finished and beta tested on early adopters. Now we get hardware that ships with promises to add features down the line. So you get a gimped or buggy unit that may never work properly. We did get updates and sweeteners for these units and complaints were few. Now greed (suicide) has set in. The same bugged/gimped hardware but now a subscription to get improvements.
I will just wait for a completed unit with all the promised upgrades to appear and I'll get that. Or I'll just buy a unit from someone else. Things all sound good now so chasing the latest game changer is over. I'll just learn to use what I have. The money pool will shrink and Kemper and followers will go out of business. RIP Kemper. I'll stick with people who want to offer a good product and good service.
Adobe is getting killed. M$ is pushing the limits of sanity and Kemper says 'hold my beer'.
Depends on the upgrade. Like you said if hx effects could now opetare and run models, that's a worth-while extra expense for the user, and is something that was not on tbe cards remotely when the product was launched.
Same thing with QC. No plug in discount for people who own the hardware? Probably is where things are going unless there's enough blowback to keep manufacturers at bay.
If the company does updates to keep their existing hardware relevant and saves them having to produce new devices then what's the problem? If your Kemper is now sounding as great as a QC or Fractal then you've just made your place in the game more secure and you still have a viable product. Free firmware updates should be the norm, extra software is a different case.
As a consumer, I am concerned that this approach will become the norm. If so, the base price should be much lower and it is up to you how far you go. However, this would make me reluctant. I prefer the product to be complete and if the price is high, the updates should be free. I think the time has come to buy more second hand. We have had enough devices with very good quality and sound for many years, it is not necessary to buy the latest, be it the Kemper or the Mini Quadcortex. We would have more for less money, don't go crazy. It is the only way for these companies to think again and be less greedy.
I think the problem with that was the way they did it.
You know, if it was launched with two or three options from the beginning, and the buyer could choose any one I think it would be fine, but they launched a simpler option by taking out things they already have on all of their products, and only a few months later they say, Oh, you know, I can give you some of the things I said I couldn't give you if you pay me a little more.
I think this is the problem.
john it's by far the worst PR move i have seen in a while, your leading challengers in the market all release the updates for free and yet kemper seem to think its okay to limit it then make you pay in a TIER SYSTEM to unlock its full potential, it's game over for kemper cringe behaviour.
Paid updates in the gaming Console world can really destroy the initial release if the company is relying on “making it better later” and can drop sales/hype really fast. If they make it great first and add more features we want later, then there’s your subscription base.
As has been pointed out by TorcuatoMarianoOficial on another video - " *the Kemper Player with this upgrade costs the same as an FM 3 which is infinitely more professional and more complete* "
Ultimately its your money, throw it at whatever you choose , thats the wonderful thing about Capitalism, we get to vote with our wallets
The main reason I didn’t look at the Kemper player was the lack of a normal Midi I/O and that their effects are pretty average. To pay extra for a parallel signal path is just plain stupid in my view
I hope your pardon me saying so, but these aren’t paid updates, they’re paid upgrades. The die has long been cast with regard to software upgrades when it comes to features in cars. And I think that tone junkie made an excellent point about the fact that this device can be bought an affordable price and kept that way for people who don’t need more advanced features. But it’s also expandable at the cost of a firmware upgrade to add more features people might need and can afford.
I think the sore point is that these aren't upgrades, they're updates. The hardware is unchanged, it was always either capable of doing something (processing power, memory etc) or not. The valve amp equivalent would be something like selling you an amp with the half power switch locked in place or the channel selector button locked to clean. Then, down the line, charging you to unlock the switches so you can run it at full power and use the drive channel. I don't think that would go down well and neither has this.