Superior presentation. In a concise and understandable format, this channel keeps an "old dog" up to date on what is new. Thank you Chris for the wonderful continuing education.
Sorry but no, VanillaOS takes telemetry to the next level compared to plain Ubuntu which it is based on. Look at their privacy policy. They harvest your personal information from your documents as well as user profile on the OS. The distro maintainers also can at will access your filesystem if you are connected to the internet.
Very interesting. I do hope that people will not automatically believe that malware can't affect them because although the core is secure, the rest isn't. It was impressive that a basic user could be up and running with apps and not encounter anything technical.
@elfrjz obviously, but that's just like on a phone. But still phones are used for authentication, online banking etc. because they are pretty safe, at least compared to a desktop. Big part of it is that everything is run in a sandbox. So everything gets it's own permission. SELinux is the most used one. That is pretty safe, in fact it's so safe that most servers use it.
it's the right thing to do, we need the common person, especially after copilot+ and crowdstrike fiascos. You are all welcome(no matter what others might say or think)
A small correction regarding apx ‘running in user mode’. That should have been ‘running under regular user privileges’. Both regular user and root applications run in user mode, as opposed to certain system processes that run in kernel mode. Of course Chris knows all that - this is just to help users new to Linux. Great job once again, Chris.
My experience with immutable distros comes from the Steam Deck. SteamOS is an Arch based immutable OS that switches between a dedicated gaming interface and a KDE desktop mode. One important aspect this has highlighted for me is that you've got to manage the permissions of Flatpaks. They're containerized, but by default you don't get to define their containers in an accessible way. So you need an application like Flatseal to check and modify their permissions. This allows knowledgeable users to increase security by removing unnecessary or questionable permissions, but it also helps fix issues that can arise. For instance, if an application needs to move a file to a different directory, but it doesn't have access to enough of the file system. You can add that permission and repair the issue.
A knowledgeable user can increase the security on any Linux system using its native package management without introducing the additional security risk of a third-party "one size fits all" package management system. It's the same reason why no longer hosting your own "bare metal" servers introduces additional security risk when hosting on a Cloud provider that has not been involved in the solution before. The "war of universal package management" is still being fought anyway between snaps, flatpaks, appimages and nix, and the only people who care about the winner are those trying to turn Linux into Windows and who don't want to put in proper time and effort to learning Linux properly. I've been working with Linux since 1996 (a bit longer with UNIX) and not found to use any of those packaging formats - Gentoo Linux and its package manager Portage are all that I need. A knowledgeable user has knowledge because of taking the time to learn Linux properly, not constantly trying to take "shortcuts" that just add more complexity to the main OS and therefore introduce more software layers containing software bugs and security issues.
PS. For the record, the reason why Linux on Steam Deck is immutable is because the same is true of the OSes on the Playstations and X-Boxes in this world - gamers generally just want to play games and don't care about the underlying OS on their systems (and that's not a criticism, by the way). How many PS5 owners, for example, know what OS their console runs, or even care about it?
@@terrydaktyllus1320 While a console owner doesn’t care about the underlying OS, the choices made by the console manufacturer isn’t for the good of the console owner though but for their own interests. The console owner ultimately gets little choice in what they can do outside of that consoles own ecosystem.
@@richards7909 Yes, but both statements (mine and yours) can exist in the same universe - namely that most gamers don't care about the OS on their consoles and the manufacturers can lock them down to their "heart's content" - in fact, one could argue that each statement drives the other one. So I am not sure what point of mine you have answered here?
I'm liking this distro just for the fact that it asks what software you want to install from the start, which is a lot more convenient than installing all the stuff you don't want/use and having to remove it all later.
This was another great video! I will not use this as my daily driver (yet), but with the state the world is now in, this could change at any time and it is good to know that this distro exists.
Super interesting. Vanilla is very new, so expect major changes in the tech it is based on (they are moving from Ubuntu-based to Debian Sid (unstable) based in the next release, and it is possible they move from abroot to libostree in the future). Immutability is what seems to be getting the most attention, but I actually think APX is the most interesting part of Vanilla OS. APX's core team includes Luca di Maio of Distrobox and is distro-agnostic. I use Debian Testing as my daily-driver, and am going to install APX on my system to gain some of the benefits of Vanilla while Vanilla matures.
I think any operating system that impresses you so much is worth checking (and my download just finished). I like the idea of an immutable system (particularly for my firewall/router facing the internet) -- but how it places out in practice (updated, etc) is going to be the final decision maker. Lovely presentation of complex topics -- always appreciate your videos!
Thanks for a great explanation of Vanilla. It reminds me how many nice advances have been made in Linux since my first introduction many years ago. At that time, Linux was a challenge to use. No longer!
I don’t believe that I’ve heard of “immutable” distros before. I wonder how effective they are. I wouldn’t mind you covering this distro again if its next release is impressive. Looking forward to your next video!
A very informative video about an interesting concept. I wonder whether the team behind Vanilla OS are looking to extend their new idea into ARM and in particularly to the Raspberry Pi 400 and others. Could be interesting in the future should they ever pursue it.
This video was so, so helpful, i begun to take notes lol. All other videos that I've seen on vanilla OS don't mention even the APX thing. Your first 4 min beat all of them.
This distro has me interested for sure, even though I know little about managing Flatpaks. A most interesting video that made me think a little more about Linux.
Hi Chris. Very interesting and promising. I am impressed by the amount and quality of documentation, and I like the immutable concept and how it's been applied. However, making errors, sometimes serious ones, is how we learn life's difficult lessons. The way you installed those packages one after the othet made me think it shouldn't be too hard to create a batch installer for such a task. You could select your wish list and set it running and go talk to the ducks or set it to overnight install after you go to bed. I look forward to other updates on this. Have fun
Sunday afternoon with another excellent video from Chris @ E.C. Vanilla OS does seem quire interesting, I like the idea that the core is isolated from the user & software in containers a plus point for security. There was plenty of software choices that you installed for your workflow (Solitaire anyone)!! Hopefully future updates will add the tweaks that you feel were missing from the distro :)
I really like the idea of an immutable OS. Especially with the method of verifying the updates the way Vanilla does. What I did not appreciate was that my old Windows CE PDA was "immutable". Of course so were the ROM BIOS elements of the DOS for all the old 8088 PCs. But that was not done in the interests of providing greater security.
Dear John, 👍👍👍 Greetings. Wow... that brings back some fond childhood memories with my first PC - XT8088 compatible. Was recommended to "upgrade" to "IBM" ROMBIOS to get a special version of BASIC in the ROM. So that it can run certain extra programs. I was very new to computing then and not too sure what the upgrade did for me... perhaps allow me to run IBM PC DOS. I still missed those days... 4.77mhz, 256k ram, 2x5.25" floppy, no harddisk, CGA monitor. Was it 9pin 80col dot-matrix printer? No rodent needed 😊. Thanks again & best wishes to you & Chris!
This seems like a perfect distro for getting family members or the children in your life started in linux. With the low chance of user error and the very low chance of installing malware really does seem ideal. Thank you very much for showcasing this Linux distro. Have a wonderful Sunday. I look forward to you next video. :)
I use openSUSE with Gnome desktop environment. Gnome is simply super and functional. No unnecessary shinies and useless functions, just a clean desktop ready to work with. Gnome is just fantastic.
Greetings! This is a very relevant concept both in terms of digital security and in terms of support for Linux beginners; one can learn by tinkering without being afraid of making the system crash... Definitely brilliant! An approach that should be democratized on all distros? And why not! Thank you for this excellent presentation. 👍
@@ExplainingComputers I certainly can't generalize and apply the label "crash risk" to all new Linux users, obviously... But as far as I'm concerned, I have a very envious score of having to reinstall Linux distros!
I used to run long time Fedora 20 and I can see it is straight forward easy to install Vanilla OS. We are in a world nothing is 100% secure. Thank you for awesome video I really appreciate 😊 😉
suits my needs i think, i may have to try it, funny, your post install program list is very similar to mine, i would include Thunderbird, love the videos
I always love your OS updates, I look forward to them. I also agree with your opinion on the user interface. What that's it, thank you for another great video.
Chrome OS and Steam OS are also immutable Linux operating systems. In the case of Chrome OS, Linux apps and Android apps are run in their own containers under Chrome OS. Similarly, the Chrome web browser pages and web apps run in their own sand boxes to improve security. Immutable operating systems make a lot of sense, especially with regards security and stability, accepting that you sacrifice disk space, as apps are installed self-contained (i.e. complete with all dependent shared libraries). This effectively duplicates some disk space requirements, except in the case of package installers such as Flatpak, where use is made of some less granular shared platform packages. They are also good for people who want to use a low-cost Linux operating system environment and run applications without requiring a more detailed knowledge of the underlying operation system.
I've actually used immutable OSes for over a decade without realizing what they are. Lots of commercial appliances use the same approach. Off the top of my head, managed Ethernet switches work in a similar fashion for updates. (There isn't often any check the update applied successfully, but if you have console access, it's easy enough to go back to the previous version.) I've worked with some video processing equipment that does this as well. Barring major hardware failure, it seems like this is the best way to maintain overall uptime, even if it does increase the necessity for reboots. I would love to see a microkernel architecture become popular, so we can have all of the continuous uptime, but still keep our platform up to date. Coupled with something like Intel's canceled Optane memory in place of DRAM, one could have a computer keep its uptime _through a power outage._ Good luck using it though. 😅👍
Thank you Sir for the fantastic video. It was very informative and easy. I felt like I tested the distro myself without wasting much time. Please keep doing this.
First time I heard of immutable distros was when the Steam Deck was about to come out. I have been very interested in a good, well supported immutable Linux distro since then, and am still hoping for SteamOS to become officially available. I have not used Linux that long, but at least a few times I made some sort of mistake that broke everything and I had to spend the rest of the day trying to figure out a fix without losing all my data. I dislike Windows enough to deal with Linux's quirks, but that is not true for most people. I wish more distros made it the default to be immutable, and if you really want full control you can toggle it off. Design your distro for the average Joe, but leave some toggles in advanced settings or something for the folks that get all sweaty for total OS control.
Wow Peter Nice exciting new distro looks like a future daily driver very tempting I like it. Thanks for the time in sharing and intro into learning new stuff. Great channel Peter sure helps a lot for beginners like me.
To be fair, GNOME has _something_ to do with tiny, stone goblins, because, as George Carlin reminds us, acronyms are only abbreviations that spell words - not just any set of letters, such as “NASA,” because that wasn’t already a word. So, ”GNOME” is only an “acronym” because it’s an abbreviation that spells a word, and that word describes tiny, stone goblins. Otherwise-if not for those goblins-it would just be an abbreviation, not an acronym... lol That said, yet another incredible, informative, and well-produced video from a seemingly endless font of amazing work, Chris! It seems you’ve made elegant, inspired, educational content about every relevant, modern, computer-related question there is...
Great video! I am very interested in the concept behind this distro, lets give them more time and hopefully soon we will be able to use it as a daily driver.
If you're doing this on a PC that has multiple drives already in it - disconnect all the drives other than the one you want this OS on. It's very easy to mistake the wrong drive as the one you want it on - and you'll wipe out everything forever. If you're planning to install any Linux distro onto a drive that you've previously had another OS on, sometimes the installation will stall out on you - with no error messages (or read "Kernel Panic"). If this happens to you, and you really want to use that drive for your new install, you'll have to find a program that allows you to low-level wipe out that drive - in order to get a smooth install process later. Depending on the size of that drive (and the option you pick on the low level wipe/format program - there's more higher and higher levels of intensity of wiping as options), your PC could spend hours or even days wiping out that one drive. You may just want to get a fresh drive for the install instead.
Thank you very much. A new, more secure, distribution is something very interesting. Maybe, it may make sense to run a few tests with it in order to see how much more secure it really is.
Hey Chris. Another great video. I have one Dell I5 laptop that is dedicated to Linux, and is currently running an older version of Mint. However, lately I have been contemplating doing a fresh install of Mint, I think I will try the Vanilla OS, as I really like the idea of the Immutable OS to provide extra security. Thanks Chris for another well presented and informative video.
@@ExplainingComputers Hey Chris. A few days and much frustration later, I am leaning towards reinstalling Mint. Somehow, I missed the initial LibreOffice option, and now can't figure out how to install it, or Firefox. I seem to be going in circles trying to navigate this very different operating system. Walking away for now.......
Thanks for this one, very interesting Distro. The main strike against it for me personally is the use of GNOME, I'm afraid I simply do not like it. If Vanilla OS offered MATE or Cinnamon as alternatives I would definitely give it a try.
Interesting. Maybe there will be more DE's in the future. I've tried it, but don't see it as myu daily driver for the reasons you mention It's imparative that they do at a minimum a Mate version and better yet a Plasma version. I used Mate for a lonmg time and like it, but I like Plasma better. The present DE on Vanilla sucks for me. TGhere are just too many steps required for simple tasks.
I'm in the same boat. Even when I started using Linux since 20 years (RedHat 6.2) and after trying a few times, I just can't stand the modern gnome. The gnome flashback was a nice attempt but since I use Mate or Cinnamon I feel as the good old days using Linux: productive and solid. Even xfce or lxde, or of course KDE but definitely the modern gnome push me away automatically.
very interesting indeed, would be great as a daily driver but i think chris is right still need a few improvements so i guess we'll see how it goes... great video. loved it.
Ahoy, Chris. Good title! As you were explaining immutable, FreeBSD boot environments came to mind. Boot environments rest on ZFS snapshots. I’ve encountered in a FreeNAS/TrueNAS context. Once I had to revert an update gone wrong. Easy from the physical console menses. Snapshots also allow recovery from ransomware and other exploits. Good topic for your show writing skills. Excellent presenter!
Hello Chris We could discuss a lot about the real level of security brought by an immutable OS, because there are always security issues. And without updates, bugs and security aren't corrected. IT security is a multi-faceted issue and, in my mind, Vanilla OS adressed only few of them. Vanilla OS seems doesn't propose partition encryption. And what about network security (encrypted protocols, firewall, vpn, etc.) ? What about secure software repositories which provide only softwares with a certified origin. What about usage of SELinux or AppArmor ? What about Vanilla OS compatibility with a proprietary antivirus suite ? What about password management ? More generally and beyond security concerns, it could be appreciable to test the file manager and it's compatibility with NFS4 and SMB2.* & 3 shares. Some important softwares still have some problem with remote file servers. And also the printing system with local and remote printers. A end user Linux distro must offer the best quality of service as possible, security and usability ahead. Thanks a lot for your videos which are always very helpful and informative. 👍
10:05 - Oh! Dear!!!! That's annoying! One of the reasons I am very fan of KDE Plasma. You have minimize window right there! There's no need to install gnome-tweaks to get that work. Why this options is not in the Gnome Control Panel in some where, in the first place? And you want another bad thing? Try to create a bridge interface in control panel! There's no such option. KDE Plasma in the systemsettings is right there just a few clicks. By the way your videos are awesome. Keep going.
Thank you for a wonderful introduction to immutable OSes in Vanilla OS. I do agree with you about G(uh)NOME. In an effort to keep things "clean" options are either hidden or not there. Needing to install another program, Tweaks and now also Extensions to get the OS setup for what the general user is used to is a bit annoying. This is why I prefer a different DE (desktop environment) such as KDE or Cinnamon. Luckily, Linux distros offer the options. Be well my friend!
The developers try to imitate Microsoft Windows too well. If users are used to certain features, those should be removed or at least made invisible in the next update.
@@sbc_tinkerer That is what I ask myself. I agreed with you "options are either hidden or not there" That is what Microsoft does with each Windows update.
I will say I am curious about the possibilities of an immutable operating system. I was not sure how it would work for me personally, but after this presentation, it has really demonstrated that I had a few ideas about immutable distros that were either out of date or just incorrect. I don't know that I would recommend using it on something like a cheap laptop with a 64 GB eMMC because of that need for a second 20 GB root partition, but it has clearly demonstrated what ever negative impression I had about an immutable distro is just plain wrong. Thank you for the great video!
Thank you Chris.This looks like being my next distro to try. I began a few years ago with SUSE before it became 'open' but a windows update screwed up the dual boot and I lost everything. An OS that resists corruption is right up my street.
Might want to wait a bit. They just announced they are switching to a Debian base instead of Ubuntu. Of course, you can try it out in the current Ubuntu version but I wouldn't get cozy with it since they are switching. I'm excited about their switch to Debian.
As a long time linux user. My favorite linux distro these days is WIn 11. Nushell + windows terminal + lf file manager + neovim + autohotkey +Scoop, etc.
Thanks! It reminded me of Z88s which I still use occasionally. With those the operating system, and indeed basic applications too, are in ROM. Makes it very fast.
Overall I agree with your assessment. Vanilla OS has an interesting security theory (immutable core) implemented in a relatively user friendly way. I agree with the interface needing a dock and minimize button. My additional concerns would be: 1. Does Vanilla OS security theory actually result in protection? -- what malware does it stop? 2. Device drivers (device drivers are more likely to require admin access) A. Video -- Good that it picked up on NVidia during install B. Network -- Looks like Firefox worked -- what about firewall/ports? C. Printer -- Not tested -- is my HP All-in-One going to work as well as it does on other Linux distros? D. Data Science -- Will languages like Python and R work? and will their IDEs (VS Code, Jupyter and RStudio) work?
Drivers, including those for printers, and programming languages all come down to "well, it's Linux". If the kernel runs and the packages exist, why would they suddenly not work?
2) It has a GUI driver manager built-in to handle all of this. They're (the devs) putting in a lot of effort to make it seamless B) Almost everything is installed in containers. Networking works splendidly in containers. It's easy to give each container its own subnet, open up ports on that subnet and send traffic through a firewall. D) They're currently working on a clear linux subsystem that integrates into the OS in order to achieve better performance for data science and other similar workflows
@jim In theory, yes it would result in better security. Would need to look into integrity testing measures in place for updates. Say something gets missed by the team approving packages and a vulnerable update gets through screenings. At least it won’t be applied to the live version. This helps it be more secure than patching live. Just like all security tools, it alone doesn’t do a whole lot. In the right hands (if you’re keeping an eye on new vulnerabilities) it would result in a better outcome.
1. SuSE does no think so, because their approach to "Immutable" distro is a inmutable distro without multiple root partitions cortesy of the snapshot future of BTRFS. 2. Last remember all of the drivers require root access. B. Probably you would need a change in the /etc that is complicated. D. Software that does no use nothing special more than using drivers or weird prossesor instructions is bound to work as long you get the drivers, the question here is what kind of demon would like somthing like "IA".
I've been using Silverblue, encrypted, on my laptops that I take out of the house for years now. You, know, that little bit of extra security, never had any issues with it. ( Steam OS which is used on the Steam Deck is also immutable. Microsoft has a Linux immutable system called CBL-Mariner which it uses as a part of Azure )
Looks a very interesting distro which i'll have to have a play with on my test box. As you say though, Vanilla Gnome isn't something I've ever enjoyed using. Perhaps they could offer Vanilla Cinnamon or Vanilla KDE in future for us plebs who like taskbars and menus! 😆
@@FengLengshun Thank you for the recommendation. I may just do that on my tester laptop! I've been lurking the discord and trying to see what's been happening so far :)
Aaaah now I understand what an immutable system is. Perfectly explained, thank you. If they do get around to having a dock function think I'd definitely install as my daily driver.
This looks like a very interesting option, especially for someone like me who already runs Ubuntu with GNOME. I'm going to install this on my backup system and test it out for a while. If I like how it works I may very will switch to Vanilla OS.
This looks very interesting. I would like Chris to run this for a while and report back. My experience of installing a new OS has had problems. Let's see how it goes.
Fantastic video! More fantastic content. Thankyou very much. Chris would you consider for future Linux videos or a special stand alone video looking at using the steam gaming platform and the steam proton for running Windows only steam games on Linux. Many thanks for your amazing channels
Looks cool. I'm hoping for a KDE spin on it. I can't stand vanilla GNOME. Otherwise, I'd love to see more done with immutable Linux distros. I think it's a very good idea security wise. :)
Superior presentation. In a concise and understandable format, this channel keeps an "old dog" up to date on what is new. Thank you Chris for the wonderful continuing education.
Heh! ROM is not a BAD thing ;-)
Hear hear! Seconded!
Yeah I like this classy old shool, intellectual type of presentation.
im not an "old dog" but i still prefer this style of video! Love it!
Sorry but no, VanillaOS takes telemetry to the next level compared to plain Ubuntu which it is based on. Look at their privacy policy. They harvest your personal information from your documents as well as user profile on the OS. The distro maintainers also can at will access your filesystem if you are connected to the internet.
Very interesting. I do hope that people will not automatically believe that malware can't affect them because although the core is secure, the rest isn't. It was impressive that a basic user could be up and running with apps and not encounter anything technical.
I mean it's running everything in a sandbox. So it's pretty secure like a phone
@@anonymunsichtbar3715 But it's not immutable.
@@anonymunsichtbar3715 yep, you got it
@elfrjz obviously, but that's just like on a phone. But still phones are used for authentication, online banking etc. because they are pretty safe, at least compared to a desktop. Big part of it is that everything is run in a sandbox. So everything gets it's own permission. SELinux is the most used one. That is pretty safe, in fact it's so safe that most servers use it.
Late to the party. Increased security never means invulnerability. Not sure the English language is capable of transferring specific meaning.
finally, someone that talks to the common person, without all the technicalities of the terminal.
it's the right thing to do, we need the common person, especially after copilot+ and crowdstrike fiascos. You are all welcome(no matter what others might say or think)
A small correction regarding apx ‘running in user mode’. That should have been ‘running under regular user privileges’. Both regular user and root applications run in user mode, as opposed to certain system processes that run in kernel mode. Of course Chris knows all that - this is just to help users new to Linux. Great job once again, Chris.
I have been watching you for a looooong time, why are you not getting old??
Oh, I am getting old! :) Thanks for watching.
My experience with immutable distros comes from the Steam Deck. SteamOS is an Arch based immutable OS that switches between a dedicated gaming interface and a KDE desktop mode.
One important aspect this has highlighted for me is that you've got to manage the permissions of Flatpaks. They're containerized, but by default you don't get to define their containers in an accessible way. So you need an application like Flatseal to check and modify their permissions.
This allows knowledgeable users to increase security by removing unnecessary or questionable permissions, but it also helps fix issues that can arise. For instance, if an application needs to move a file to a different directory, but it doesn't have access to enough of the file system. You can add that permission and repair the issue.
rm KDE have this settings
A knowledgeable user can increase the security on any Linux system using its native package management without introducing the additional security risk of a third-party "one size fits all" package management system. It's the same reason why no longer hosting your own "bare metal" servers introduces additional security risk when hosting on a Cloud provider that has not been involved in the solution before.
The "war of universal package management" is still being fought anyway between snaps, flatpaks, appimages and nix, and the only people who care about the winner are those trying to turn Linux into Windows and who don't want to put in proper time and effort to learning Linux properly.
I've been working with Linux since 1996 (a bit longer with UNIX) and not found to use any of those packaging formats - Gentoo Linux and its package manager Portage are all that I need.
A knowledgeable user has knowledge because of taking the time to learn Linux properly, not constantly trying to take "shortcuts" that just add more complexity to the main OS and therefore introduce more software layers containing software bugs and security issues.
PS. For the record, the reason why Linux on Steam Deck is immutable is because the same is true of the OSes on the Playstations and X-Boxes in this world - gamers generally just want to play games and don't care about the underlying OS on their systems (and that's not a criticism, by the way).
How many PS5 owners, for example, know what OS their console runs, or even care about it?
@@terrydaktyllus1320 While a console owner doesn’t care about the underlying OS, the choices made by the console manufacturer isn’t for the good of the console owner though but for their own interests. The console owner ultimately gets little choice in what they can do outside of that consoles own ecosystem.
@@richards7909 Yes, but both statements (mine and yours) can exist in the same universe - namely that most gamers don't care about the OS on their consoles and the manufacturers can lock them down to their "heart's content" - in fact, one could argue that each statement drives the other one.
So I am not sure what point of mine you have answered here?
I'm liking this distro just for the fact that it asks what software you want to install from the start, which is a lot more convenient than installing all the stuff you don't want/use and having to remove it all later.
Sunday evenings wouldn't be the same without an EC video. Excellent review, as always, Chris. Cheers!
As always, very well presented and definitely a big help in refreshing and keeping up to date on what's going on.
Thank you Chris.
This was another great video! I will not use this as my daily driver (yet), but with the state the world is now in, this could change at any time and it is good to know that this distro exists.
Super interesting. Vanilla is very new, so expect major changes in the tech it is based on (they are moving from Ubuntu-based to Debian Sid (unstable) based in the next release, and it is possible they move from abroot to libostree in the future). Immutability is what seems to be getting the most attention, but I actually think APX is the most interesting part of Vanilla OS. APX's core team includes Luca di Maio of Distrobox and is distro-agnostic. I use Debian Testing as my daily-driver, and am going to install APX on my system to gain some of the benefits of Vanilla while Vanilla matures.
debian unstable is more stable than ubuntu lts now fight me
I think any operating system that impresses you so much is worth checking (and my download just finished). I like the idea of an immutable system (particularly for my firewall/router facing the internet) -- but how it places out in practice (updated, etc) is going to be the final decision maker. Lovely presentation of complex topics -- always appreciate your videos!
If you want it for a router, etc... search somewhere else, vanilla OS is GUI oriented and would make things more difficult than needed
Thanks for these great videos, much appreciated
Thanks for this, most appreciated.
Thanks for a great explanation of Vanilla. It reminds me how many nice advances have been made in Linux since my first introduction many years ago. At that time, Linux was a challenge to use. No longer!
I'm so grateful for this channel. Thank you for turning me on to so many cool things over the years, Chris.
I don’t believe that I’ve heard of “immutable” distros before. I wonder how effective they are. I wouldn’t mind you covering this distro again if its next release is impressive. Looking forward to your next video!
Technically Android is a Linux distro and it is immutable. Complete with an (optional) A/B partition scheme since Android 7.
@@rexsceleratorum1632 It will be interesting to see if immutable distributions continue to become more popular.
A very informative video about an interesting concept. I wonder whether the team behind Vanilla OS are looking to extend their new idea into ARM and in particularly to the Raspberry Pi 400 and others. Could be interesting in the future should they ever pursue it.
This video was so, so helpful, i begun to take notes lol.
All other videos that I've seen on vanilla OS don't mention even the APX thing. Your first 4 min beat all of them.
This distro has me interested for sure, even though I know little about managing Flatpaks. A most interesting video that made me think a little more about Linux.
Yes on the immutable question you posed at the end.
Thanks for the push! I'll have to check out Vanilla and other Immutable OSs mentioned here. Good stuff, man!
Ah finally my favorite day is there Explaining Computers day! Every Sunday Is my favorite day
Ditto!
Hi Chris. Very interesting and promising. I am impressed by the amount and quality of documentation, and I like the immutable concept and how it's been applied. However, making errors, sometimes serious ones, is how we learn life's difficult lessons. The way you installed those packages one after the othet made me think it shouldn't be too hard to create a batch installer for such a task. You could select your wish list and set it running and go talk to the ducks or set it to overnight install after you go to bed. I look forward to other updates on this. Have fun
Not hard at all, just make a bash script with a bunch of apx install -y [appname]
Over a year ago, I began using an immutable distro - NixOS. It has performed flawlessly.
Happiest of Sundays to everyone. Great video Christopher as per usual. 👏
Sunday afternoon with another excellent video from Chris @ E.C. Vanilla OS does seem quire interesting, I like the idea that the core is isolated from the user & software in containers a plus point for security. There was plenty of software choices that you installed for your workflow (Solitaire anyone)!! Hopefully future updates will add the tweaks that you feel were missing from the distro :)
I really like the idea of an immutable OS. Especially with the method of verifying the updates the way Vanilla does.
What I did not appreciate was that my old Windows CE PDA was "immutable". Of course so were the ROM BIOS elements of the DOS for all the old 8088 PCs. But that was not done in the interests of providing greater security.
Dear John, 👍👍👍
Greetings.
Wow... that brings back some fond childhood memories with my first PC - XT8088 compatible. Was recommended to "upgrade" to "IBM" ROMBIOS to get a special version of BASIC in the ROM. So that it can run certain extra programs. I was very new to computing then and not too sure what the upgrade did for me... perhaps allow me to run IBM PC DOS.
I still missed those days... 4.77mhz, 256k ram, 2x5.25" floppy, no harddisk, CGA monitor. Was it 9pin 80col dot-matrix printer? No rodent needed 😊.
Thanks again & best wishes to you & Chris!
Thanks Christopher, I have to say you have a keen eye for really useful technology. I may add some other to the list: CarbonOS, Fedora Kinoite
Great job Chris. Now I want to have some Vanilla ice cream. :-)
:)
Let me join you!
This seems like a perfect distro for getting family members or the children in your life started in linux. With the low chance of user error and the very low chance of installing malware really does seem ideal. Thank you very much for showcasing this Linux distro. Have a wonderful Sunday. I look forward to you next video. :)
Maybe, but I find the DE to be combersum and confusing.
The Gnome desktop is ennoying as hell though.
I use openSUSE with Gnome desktop environment. Gnome is simply super and functional. No unnecessary shinies and useless functions, just a clean desktop ready to work with. Gnome is just fantastic.
xfce is better tho
The video is superb, I was impressed how those apps installed so fast.
I love your intro, it looks so early 2010's. It's great. Never change it.
Greetings! This is a very relevant concept both in terms of digital security and in terms of support for Linux beginners; one can learn by tinkering without being afraid of making the system crash... Definitely brilliant! An approach that should be democratized on all distros? And why not! Thank you for this excellent presentation. 👍
I did not consider beginners being protected from causing problems -- a very good point. :)
@@ExplainingComputers I certainly can't generalize and apply the label "crash risk" to all new Linux users, obviously... But as far as I'm concerned, I have a very envious score of having to reinstall Linux distros!
I used to run long time Fedora 20 and I can see it is straight forward easy to install Vanilla OS. We are in a world nothing is 100% secure.
Thank you for awesome video I really appreciate 😊 😉
suits my needs i think, i may have to try it, funny, your post install program list is very similar to mine, i would include Thunderbird, love the videos
I almost always learn something new from you Chris - an "immutable" OS was a new one for me!
Greetings Chris.
I always love your OS updates, I look forward to them.
I also agree with your opinion on the user interface. What that's it, thank you for another great video.
Chrome OS and Steam OS are also immutable Linux operating systems. In the case of Chrome OS, Linux apps and Android apps are run in their own containers under Chrome OS. Similarly, the Chrome web browser pages and web apps run in their own sand boxes to improve security. Immutable operating systems make a lot of sense, especially with regards security and stability, accepting that you sacrifice disk space, as apps are installed self-contained (i.e. complete with all dependent shared libraries). This effectively duplicates some disk space requirements, except in the case of package installers such as Flatpak, where use is made of some less granular shared platform packages. They are also good for people who want to use a low-cost Linux operating system environment and run applications without requiring a more detailed knowledge of the underlying operation system.
Chrome OS (Flex) is indeed excellent. :)
I've actually used immutable OSes for over a decade without realizing what they are. Lots of commercial appliances use the same approach. Off the top of my head, managed Ethernet switches work in a similar fashion for updates. (There isn't often any check the update applied successfully, but if you have console access, it's easy enough to go back to the previous version.) I've worked with some video processing equipment that does this as well.
Barring major hardware failure, it seems like this is the best way to maintain overall uptime, even if it does increase the necessity for reboots. I would love to see a microkernel architecture become popular, so we can have all of the continuous uptime, but still keep our platform up to date. Coupled with something like Intel's canceled Optane memory in place of DRAM, one could have a computer keep its uptime _through a power outage._ Good luck using it though. 😅👍
Thank you Sir for the fantastic video. It was very informative and easy. I felt like I tested the distro myself without wasting much time. Please keep doing this.
I may try it as a VM at first. My attachment to Linus Mint and Fedora is strong. We’ll see. Thank you for the video. Cheers!
Another fabulous presentation and explanation from Chris! Barnatt is the best! Thank you :)
First time I heard of immutable distros was when the Steam Deck was about to come out. I have been very interested in a good, well supported immutable Linux distro since then, and am still hoping for SteamOS to become officially available.
I have not used Linux that long, but at least a few times I made some sort of mistake that broke everything and I had to spend the rest of the day trying to figure out a fix without losing all my data. I dislike Windows enough to deal with Linux's quirks, but that is not true for most people. I wish more distros made it the default to be immutable, and if you really want full control you can toggle it off. Design your distro for the average Joe, but leave some toggles in advanced settings or something for the folks that get all sweaty for total OS control.
Wow Peter Nice exciting new distro looks like a future daily driver very tempting I like it. Thanks for the time in sharing and intro into learning new stuff. Great channel Peter
sure helps a lot for beginners like me.
Looks very interesting, I just might give that a go myself. Thanks for sharing.
To be fair, GNOME has _something_ to do with tiny, stone goblins, because, as George Carlin reminds us, acronyms are only abbreviations that spell words - not just any set of letters, such as “NASA,” because that wasn’t already a word. So, ”GNOME” is only an “acronym” because it’s an abbreviation that spells a word, and that word describes tiny, stone goblins. Otherwise-if not for those goblins-it would just be an abbreviation, not an acronym... lol
That said, yet another incredible, informative, and well-produced video from a seemingly endless font of amazing work, Chris! It seems you’ve made elegant, inspired, educational content about every relevant, modern, computer-related question there is...
:)
Useful information as always!
I find it useful to always check dark mode... often it doesn't work right, and for me that's a no-go.
Informative and very interesting video as always Chris, always enjoy your channel. Great work 🙂
Great video! I am very interested in the concept behind this distro, lets give them more time and hopefully soon we will be able to use it as a daily driver.
If you're doing this on a PC that has multiple drives already in it - disconnect all the drives other than the one you want this OS on.
It's very easy to mistake the wrong drive as the one you want it on - and you'll wipe out everything forever.
If you're planning to install any Linux distro onto a drive that you've previously had another OS on, sometimes the installation will stall out on you - with no error messages (or read "Kernel Panic").
If this happens to you, and you really want to use that drive for your new install, you'll have to find a program that allows you to low-level wipe out that drive - in order to get a smooth install process later. Depending on the size of that drive (and the option you pick on the low level wipe/format program - there's more higher and higher levels of intensity of wiping as options), your PC could spend hours or even days wiping out that one drive. You may just want to get a fresh drive for the install instead.
Thank you very much. A new, more secure, distribution is something very interesting.
Maybe, it may make sense to run a few tests with it in order to see how much more secure it really is.
Hey Chris. Another great video. I have one Dell I5 laptop that is dedicated to Linux, and is currently running an older version of Mint. However, lately I have been contemplating doing a fresh install of Mint, I think I will try the Vanilla OS, as I really like the idea of the Immutable OS to provide extra security. Thanks Chris for another well presented and informative video.
Good luck with your install. :)
@@ExplainingComputers Hey Chris. A few days and much frustration later, I am leaning towards reinstalling Mint. Somehow, I missed the initial LibreOffice option, and now can't figure out how to install it, or Firefox. I seem to be going in circles trying to navigate this very different operating system. Walking away for now.......
Blessed Sunday all!
And to you
Greetings!
fk religion 🐻
Great VIdeo Chris!!! As always, you do a great job explaining things ib very understandable detail. Thanks again for all that you do!!!
Thanks for this one, very interesting Distro. The main strike against it for me personally is the use of GNOME, I'm afraid I simply do not like it. If Vanilla OS offered MATE or Cinnamon as alternatives I would definitely give it a try.
Interesting. Maybe there will be more DE's in the future. I've tried it, but don't see it as myu daily driver for the reasons you mention It's imparative that they do at a minimum a Mate version and better yet a Plasma version. I used Mate for a lonmg time and like it, but I like Plasma better. The present DE on Vanilla sucks for me. TGhere are just too many steps required for simple tasks.
I'm in the same boat. Even when I started using Linux since 20 years (RedHat 6.2) and after trying a few times, I just can't stand the modern gnome. The gnome flashback was a nice attempt but since I use Mate or Cinnamon I feel as the good old days using Linux: productive and solid. Even xfce or lxde, or of course KDE but definitely the modern gnome push me away automatically.
I Really enjoyed this video. Thanks Chris! I'm gonna try out Vanilla too, it looks great!
Thanks for your support. Good luck testing out Vanilla OS.
Great video Chris my try Vanilla os on some new incoming hardware namely a Pinetab2 when it shows up!
V interesting - first I've heard of immutable operating systems.
very interesting indeed, would be great as a daily driver but i think chris is right still need a few improvements so i guess we'll see how it goes... great video. loved it.
Still using Pop OS and Solus, but may give this one a try. Thanks Chris! :)
Ahoy, Chris. Good title! As you were explaining immutable, FreeBSD boot environments came to mind. Boot environments rest on ZFS snapshots. I’ve encountered in a FreeNAS/TrueNAS context. Once I had to revert an update gone wrong. Easy from the physical console menses. Snapshots also allow recovery from ransomware and other exploits. Good topic for your show writing skills. Excellent presenter!
my 2nd Os i ever tried after Zorin :),also gamer friendly/heavy distro aswell
This is fascinating thanks for sharing. Will be giving it a try someday soon.
Hello Chris
We could discuss a lot about the real level of security brought by an immutable OS, because there are always security issues. And without updates, bugs and security aren't corrected. IT security is a multi-faceted issue and, in my mind, Vanilla OS adressed only few of them.
Vanilla OS seems doesn't propose partition encryption. And what about network security (encrypted protocols, firewall, vpn, etc.) ? What about secure software repositories which provide only softwares with a certified origin. What about usage of SELinux or AppArmor ? What about Vanilla OS compatibility with a proprietary antivirus suite ? What about password management ?
More generally and beyond security concerns, it could be appreciable to test the file manager and it's compatibility with NFS4 and SMB2.* & 3 shares. Some important softwares still have some problem with remote file servers. And also the printing system with local and remote printers.
A end user Linux distro must offer the best quality of service as possible, security and usability ahead.
Thanks a lot for your videos which are always very helpful and informative. 👍
10:05 - Oh! Dear!!!! That's annoying! One of the reasons I am very fan of KDE Plasma. You have minimize window right there! There's no need to install gnome-tweaks to get that work.
Why this options is not in the Gnome Control Panel in some where, in the first place?
And you want another bad thing?
Try to create a bridge interface in control panel! There's no such option.
KDE Plasma in the systemsettings is right there just a few clicks.
By the way your videos are awesome.
Keep going.
Agree, Gnome should include it's tweaks automatically 👍
Never failed to entertain me, thank you Chris 😊
no tiny stone goblins. I have been so locked into Linux Mint 21.1 that I wouldn't want to change to any other distro. Good video .
Thank you for a wonderful introduction to immutable OSes in Vanilla OS. I do agree with you about G(uh)NOME. In an effort to keep things "clean" options are either hidden or not there. Needing to install another program, Tweaks and now also Extensions to get the OS setup for what the general user is used to is a bit annoying. This is why I prefer a different DE (desktop environment) such as KDE or Cinnamon. Luckily, Linux distros offer the options. Be well my friend!
The developers try to imitate Microsoft Windows too well. If users are used to certain features, those should be removed or at least made invisible in the next update.
@@jlinkels why?
@@sbc_tinkerer That is what I ask myself. I agreed with you "options are either hidden or not there" That is what Microsoft does with each Windows update.
Very interesting. Certainly interested in an immutable OS. Thanks v much
Thanks for this. It has some interesting features. I’m well known for tinkering and breaking things.
A nice video. I would have wanted to see installation of appimages and Arch packages just to see how well that would function.
I will say I am curious about the possibilities of an immutable operating system. I was not sure how it would work for me personally, but after this presentation, it has really demonstrated that I had a few ideas about immutable distros that were either out of date or just incorrect. I don't know that I would recommend using it on something like a cheap laptop with a 64 GB eMMC because of that need for a second 20 GB root partition, but it has clearly demonstrated what ever negative impression I had about an immutable distro is just plain wrong. Thank you for the great video!
Thank you Chris.This looks like being my next distro to try. I began a few years ago with SUSE before it became 'open' but a windows update screwed up the dual boot and I lost everything. An OS that resists corruption is right up my street.
Might want to wait a bit. They just announced they are switching to a Debian base instead of Ubuntu. Of course, you can try it out in the current Ubuntu version but I wouldn't get cozy with it since they are switching. I'm excited about their switch to Debian.
As a long time linux user. My favorite linux distro these days is WIn 11. Nushell + windows terminal + lf file manager + neovim + autohotkey +Scoop, etc.
Thanks! It reminded me of Z88s which I still use occasionally. With those the operating system, and indeed basic applications too, are in ROM. Makes it very fast.
Wow! I remember those machines. :)
I used Silverblue since 33. Beginning of this year I switched to suse microos desktop.
Absolutely superb video,thank you chris..I am so tempted to give this a whirl on my real drive..
Great video Chris! Thank you for sharing it with us!😎💖👍JP
No problem 👍
@@ExplainingComputers 😎
Great video Chris!!
Overall I agree with your assessment. Vanilla OS has an interesting security theory (immutable core) implemented in a relatively user friendly way. I agree with the interface needing a dock and minimize button. My additional concerns would be:
1. Does Vanilla OS security theory actually result in protection? -- what malware does it stop?
2. Device drivers (device drivers are more likely to require admin access)
A. Video -- Good that it picked up on NVidia during install
B. Network -- Looks like Firefox worked -- what about firewall/ports?
C. Printer -- Not tested -- is my HP All-in-One going to work as well as it does on other Linux distros?
D. Data Science -- Will languages like Python and R work? and will their IDEs (VS Code, Jupyter and RStudio) work?
Drivers, including those for printers, and programming languages all come down to "well, it's Linux". If the kernel runs and the packages exist, why would they suddenly not work?
2) It has a GUI driver manager built-in to handle all of this. They're (the devs) putting in a lot of effort to make it seamless
B) Almost everything is installed in containers. Networking works splendidly in containers. It's easy to give each container its own subnet, open up ports on that subnet and send traffic through a firewall.
D) They're currently working on a clear linux subsystem that integrates into the OS in order to achieve better performance for data science and other similar workflows
@jim In theory, yes it would result in better security. Would need to look into integrity testing measures in place for updates.
Say something gets missed by the team approving packages and a vulnerable update gets through screenings. At least it won’t be applied to the live version. This helps it be more secure than patching live. Just like all security tools, it alone doesn’t do a whole lot. In the right hands (if you’re keeping an eye on new vulnerabilities) it would result in a better outcome.
1. SuSE does no think so, because their approach to "Immutable" distro is a inmutable distro without multiple root partitions cortesy of the snapshot future of BTRFS.
2. Last remember all of the drivers require root access.
B. Probably you would need a change in the /etc that is complicated.
D. Software that does no use nothing special more than using drivers or weird prossesor instructions is bound to work as long you get the drivers, the question here is what kind of demon would like somthing like "IA".
I've been using Silverblue, encrypted, on my laptops that I take out of the house for years now. You, know, that little bit of extra security, never had any issues with it. ( Steam OS which is used on the Steam Deck is also immutable. Microsoft has a Linux immutable system called CBL-Mariner which it uses as a part of Azure )
Looks great! I'll have to give it a try.
Looks a very interesting distro which i'll have to have a play with on my test box. As you say though, Vanilla Gnome isn't something I've ever enjoyed using. Perhaps they could offer Vanilla Cinnamon or Vanilla KDE in future for us plebs who like taskbars and menus! 😆
This is the first thing I though of! Crossing my fingers :)
KDE is the first priority for a spin but work on it is pending Vanilla minimal which is planned to come along with the 2.0 rebase to Debian Sid.
@@FengLengshun Nice!
@@FengLengshun Thank you for the recommendation. I may just do that on my tester laptop! I've been lurking the discord and trying to see what's been happening so far :)
Aaaah now I understand what an immutable system is. Perfectly explained, thank you. If they do get around to having a dock function think I'd definitely install as my daily driver.
you have to install dash to dock gnome extension and you are done
This looks like a very interesting option, especially for someone like me who already runs Ubuntu with GNOME. I'm going to install this on my backup system and test it out for a while. If I like how it works I may very will switch to Vanilla OS.
Good luck with your tests.
This looks very interesting. I would like Chris to run this for a while and report back. My experience of installing a new OS has had problems. Let's see how it goes.
VERY NICE REVIEW AS ALWAYS LOVELY JUBBLY!!
Nice OS! 😊 I could see myself using it as a daily driver. I really like the Bullet proof concept of it as well.
Thank you for sharing this information.
You are somehow both the least and most coolest nerd on the internet. Hats off to you, good sir.
This is a very interesting operating system. I’m going to have to look into whether it will run on arm.
Very cool distribution. I hope the Debian team adopts ABroot as part of the standard Debian implementation.
Should have come up with something to test the highly secure part. You are taking their word for it.
True.
Fantastic video! More fantastic content. Thankyou very much.
Chris would you consider for future Linux videos or a special stand alone video looking at using the steam gaming platform and the steam proton for running Windows only steam games on Linux.
Many thanks for your amazing channels
I'm getting ready to introduce my kiddos to computers. Something like this will be a good introduction for them I think. I'm gonna give it a try.
Fantastic presentation, thank you.
Very nice Chris. Thanks for another great video.🙂👍
Very interesting, as always.
Looks cool. I'm hoping for a KDE spin on it. I can't stand vanilla GNOME. Otherwise, I'd love to see more done with immutable Linux distros. I think it's a very good idea security wise. :)
Yes! The only immutable distro I can find with Plasma is Kinoite - and it does not seem to be noob user friendly (yet).