I did work for Crater and the news of its removal is devastating for me. It's one of the few things I've worked on that have genuinely moved me to tears. I effing love that movie and am glad I have a copy saved.
I'm so sorry this happened. Despite the fact it was removed, you can't know how many people actually saw it, and it might have changed some lives in ways you won't see. But even the smallest actions of art and kindness can change the course of the future. so, thank you
not technically a fully lost media situation but i remember when infinity train was pulled from everything despite it trending for over a month on twitter when that mattered and people begging for more seasons to be made. Then all the dvd sets were sold out immediately because people wanted to make sure theyd be able to still watch it. even if the show is popular the company can decide that its not part of their brand and decide to get rid of it which is really messed up to me
I've noticed this is a practice online and quite frankly, it's so scary how much media companies are tossing out the window. Remember kids, pirating from big companies is always morally correct.
I've always been a firm believer that every film is someone's favorite film, for whatever reason. This ability to just delete years of work in an instant is just insane. And yeah, it sucks that we're living in a time where profit is the sole motivation for entertainment.
I'm a tax accountant (so prepare for me to get real off-topic in the weeds about this lol) and I got curious wtf tax write-off they were getting, since usually for tax purposes you'd write off expenses to produce/market/sell the movie (+ amortization probably, but not relevant here so I'm not gonna get into it). So I poked through their last SEC filing for fiscal year '23 (10/1/22 - 9/30/23) and they took a cool 2.6 billion in what's called impairment charges for what they so eloquently describe as a "strategic change in approach to content curation" (pft, sure, I guess). NOW that doesn't actually mean they get to write all that off on their taxes! An impairment charge basically means you're saying "this thing I have is worth less than what it was listed as before, so it would be lying if we DIDN'T write the cost of it down" (note: you can't do this in the opposite direction and say your thing is worth more). Also important to know is that what they report to the SEC & the public is NOT the same as what they report to the IRS and are ultimately taxed on (financial vs tax reporting). So that 2.6 billion impairment charge is something that reduces their income on a financial basis and might affect their stock price but otherwise doesn't realllly do jack shit for them. Now on a tax basis, the IRS doesn't let people take impairment charges willy-nilly and expect to be able to take a deduction for it, so their impairment rules are a little different. Instead of you saying "hey this thing is worth less than it was before and so I would like to report it as being worth less", the IRS requires COMPLETE DISPOSAL/ABANDONMENT of the underlying asset. Aka you don't get to impair shit unless you say that thing is completely worthless to you and kick it to the curb. SO OF COURSE, WHAT DOES DISNEY DO? Sneaky bastards, they just start wiping shit from the platform and are counting that as abandonment and THAT'S how they're able to write this off their taxes (benefit to them is gonna be 2.6 billion times whatever their tax rate is, so not one-to-one 2.6 billion back but still what we in the business refer to as a shit ton of money). Mega corporations are incapable of looking at a tax law without finding some way to exploit and get around it, to the surprise of no one. tl;dr - IRS has a rule that you can't just claim your stuff is worth less and expect to pay less tax unless you commit and actually get rid of it, disney goes "okay bet" and gets rid of their stuff, now disney gets to pay less taxes and that's why they're wiping movies off the platform entirely instead of allowing them to exist anywhere else. Anyway, sorry for talking way too much about taxes on your fun media analysis video!
I really appreciate this comment, because I know very little about economics and business, so I was just left wondering why Disney couldn't just leave it on their platform, "surely and can't be that expensive," I thought. But this makes a lot of sense for explaining why they'd decide to just remove it entirely.
Shouldn't this practice be illegal? Like, creating media only to cancel/remove it as a tax write off feels very illegal and almost like money laundering. Shouldn't the Federal government be getting involved in all this?
i mean they don't _make_ money off it. they just don't have to pay taxes because it was a loss. edit: that's not to say it's not scummy and awful. but i'm not sure how they could make it illegal. what if things like movies were required to be donated to the library of congress if they're removed from distribution?
As a film major who’s really passionate about this topic this is probably one of the best video essays I’ve seen on it, thank you for talking about it!
They did also used to actually put most things out on DVD/Bluray, which meant no matter what happened to the rights or whatever, you still had it. Barely any of these streaming shows and movies get home media releases, which makes piracy the *only* option a lot more often than it used to be.
It's like with gaming in the last years. That "You gotta get used to not owning the games" shit... It's basically the same with gaming stream services and digital copies. One little error, your console breaking or not enough money or some bad decision from a company, and your game is non accesible even after you paid for it...
Reminds me how the only way I can watch Megas XLR in the US, a really fun cartoon from back in the day, is by pirating it because it was written off by Cartoon Network. No toys were made, no DVD releases, not even reran on television anymore. These companies have been doing this even before streaming, and the fact it's legal to do it is sickening.
What really bugs me about things like Crater is that a lot of really beloved movies were massive commercial flops in their time and had to claw back over the decades, first becoming cult classics and, eventually, growing into genuine classics in their own right. Now I'm not especially inclined to think Crater would have taken that path, but it's tragic to imagine it and all the movies like it that might never get that chance.
Yeah, like it's honestly so depressing that, with the current trend toward nuking anything that isn't a mega blockbuster, we'll probably never get another Rocky Horror Picture Show again, not unless the winds change.
What’s worse about lost media is that behind it is an industry that is built upon the most passionate, creative, and talented individuals working for the greedy corporate elite that only seeks to drive a profit. If the SAG strikes have showed us anything is that art cannot exist for art’s sake and must generate some money even at the expense of the minds who produce it.
Companies nowadays are only focused on creating brands. It's why we see sequels and reboots consistently. It's easier to create something that people remember liking back in the day and making easy money from nostalgia than it is to create something new. I believe that once Disney saw Crater wouldn't be something to easily create a sequel too, they decided to close up shop and remove it. But now, I wonder if we'll see something Crater adjacent in the future
And once again, the terror and awe of our collective imaginations is dwarfed by the depressing reality of wholly unimaginative business execs. Sobering sentiments aside, this is just another battlefield for SAG and WGA to make sure they try and at least keep pace with the monsters that sign their paychecks. Even if the fight is fought far from our view, it will be fought nonetheless. We can at least continue to show our support of such entities for as long as they fight
Eyyyyy a fellow Less is Morgue fan! But yeah, seeing people’s passion projects being unceremoniously wiped from existence is both heartbreaking and infuriating. And it’s always the ones with the most passionate people behind them! Always! Coyote vs. Acme, Popeye, Infinity Train, Final Space, so many projects with so much love behind them, all up in smoke just to make some sleazebag shareholders a quick buck. I think you’re spot on with how the backlash to Crater’s removal will set a precedent for future write offs. This really is one of the worse time lines.
Pretty much the same thing is happening to video games, comics, and... products in general, honestly. I think the best thing to do is to figure out a way to make the people in control realize that preservation can, in fact, be profitable, while also ensuring that they never have full control over how it's done - so that the people who actually give a shit can work in peace. We also need to culturally make a looooot of people understand that those who pirate movies or games or comics don't do just so they can have something for free. That way, it'll make it easier to have less opposition towards it, since "stealing is objectively bad" is the prevalent idea corporations make use of to prevent underground preservation work to be supported. The "how" is the truly hard part. There would need to be a large-scale, meticulous study of any country in which such steps can be taken, to make sure the economic and cultural landscape of each individual place is understood, and then used in favor of the media preservation effort. Tl;dr: it's gonna be hard and complicated. Oh, and hi Scott! Your bisexual-lookin' thirst humor bits have been making me laugh since the Undertale/FNAF video😂 Always catches me off-guard, _love_ to see it. XD Thanks for anyone who bothered to read all this, btw. Y'all take care, yeah?
So many films, video games, TV shows, ETC. that have found such great success today, were BOMBS when they first released, performing terribly at first, but eventually became classics years later. In a world were media is ERASED from existence if it doesn't come out the gate SWINGING, and outperforms expectations within the blink of an eye, how can media possibly ever find it's audience without getting extremely, astronomically lucky?
This whole movies as a tax write off thing just makes me sure that a) I have no fucking idea how taxes work and b) capitalism is a scam only the rich are truly capable of benefiting from.
The cast and crew who worked on that film were productive and got paid to make something nobody is going to look at, like every electrician and plumber ever. This kept a few dozen/ hundred people off of welfare/food stamps for a few weeks/ months/ years. If keeping the worst people and most useless people in society off the dole isn't worth a kickback from the government I don't know what is. Edit. This point was addressed halfway through the video. I stand by it. Before home video release movies were seen when they were in theaters and never again. Plays are seen that night by those present and nobody else. We don't have a right to every frame captured on camera ever. We just like it.
same, tax write offs still seem so much like fraud on a tolerated level, like I hear several people talk about "can you recommend me 'insert equipment here'", "my father works in 'this field' and he can write this off with his taxes" just seems to weird to me, you buy an expensive camera or such, and can just say, "yeah that's for work purposes", but in reality your child gets it as a present.
i've been binging your videos for a bit while playin games and thank you so much for making this video. where i live and the people i surround myself with are always unconcerned for the sanctity of media and human art, and i feel like im losing my mind because no one seems to care. its unfortunate this video hasnt been seen by more eyes but id say its a great one from you, and highly appreciated
I’m not even close to a video games guy but I’ve watched your video games-related videos multiple times because of how great they are. And then somehow when you make a video that would normally be more appealing to me, RUclips takes 3 months to recommend it! Great video though.
You're right about the algorithm suppressing this because I love lost media content and I'm subbed. Glad you mad the community post cause I would've missed it
my dad and i were just trying to watch squibillies the other day on hbo max and apparently over the summer they got rid of it (except the 13th season????) possibly to sell it to paramount. there are dvds available, but they're super expensive :( shit sucks man. ig the old adult swim cartoons weren't making enough them money anymore?
Another great Spaceman Scott video, kinda mad RUclips didn't notify me about the upload but happy i found it anyways, Hope you have a great Night/Day and can't wait for the next one!!!
The point you make at 18:00 about Disney's win-win was exactly how they operated their home video releases in the 1990s. Value through scarcity. This is nothing new and should not be a surprise.
A good video! It's my first time seeing my own username on a patreon list! Not over your voice. Seriously, smooth as butter 😳 LOL No, but you make some good points. It sucks that media is at the whim of the corporate overlords. And the whole tax write-off is SO ugly.
I got an ad for Disney’s Wish and that isn’t lost on me. Anyways, the appeal to me of lost media has always been unfortunately a soul crushing reason, knowing someone’s or some groups hard work has gone to waste is genuinely heartbreaking. The fact it will get worse due to executive’s capitalist decisions, is just so damn bleak. People being scared of taking risks is a horrible thing! Media can’t evolve without taking risks! But intentionally removing something, having backlash to said removal, and then restoring it yet STILL making money off of the new attention? Gosh it’s just… really scummy. The only person who loses in the situation is the audience and the crew who worked on the project, or wanted to work on the project. It’s going to discourage new creators from literally creating anything, and that’s the worst thing you can possibly do to a human. (There’s also something to be said of ‘sunk cost fallacy’ with projects stuck in development hell but that’s a whole other conservation I think).
Here's something you can do: ARCHIVE MEDIA by digital AND physical means and remember to UPDATE YOUR PHYSICAL COPIES. VHS tapes can and will wear out and become unusable over time remember kids: the digitization is part of how lost media restoration is only going to get harder. they can't come and take your legally-purchased DVD of Disney's Atlantis, but they CAN wipe Crater from the face of the earth because its sole release was under their impenetrable control, the ability to permanently bar any and all access to it at their green-stained fingertips. my grandpa used to burn CDs and DVDs for my family back in the day, and it scares me to think we could be in possession of one of the final few copies of any movie, some of the only evidence that it was EVER made-- etched illegally onto a small round disk with some Sharpie writing on it.
The unfortunate reality is that storing digital media takes space. LOTS of space, on hard drives and servers that take up physical space and cost money to maintain. That's why so many streaming services feature shows and movies for a limited amount of time. While viewership remains high, they can justify the cost of storing that media. But as time passes, and interest wanes, removals happen by necessity. But waiting less than 2 months to decide if a piece of media is worth keeping is insane. You can't judge streaming releases by the same criteria as theater and television releases.
I know this video underperformed, but it’s really good! Every day I see less and less reason to use a streaming service-first I didn’t use any because I don’t have the spare money, then it was because there were so many that I couldn’t choose, and then they do shit like this, and it sucks
I feel like laws should be revised so that if companies want to scrap projects as a tax writeoff, then at the very least the final product (or the closest thing to the final product they have) should be released to the public free of charge. This way the tax writeoff is closer to the one you get for making charitable donations - the company is in this case giving a product to the people instead of tax dollars.
Disney just can't help make the Seven Seas a better option huh. I've no interest in the movie but to the right kid at the right time it could be Their Thing that gets them interested in space or gives them comfort at a very dark time. They won't be able to have a copy to reference unless it's illegal, much like my old VHS of Flight of the Navigator. Edit: shoulda watched the whole thing before commenting. Point still stands though.
People always say physical media is dead, in both movies and gaming, which is always odd to me considering we literally got confirmation from the Insomniac Hacked info that 60% of the sales are still on disc.
Crater is whatever, what riles me off is that they've been doing that to the already released animation works, like Infinity Train. It got _three_ season renevals before disappearing off the streaming services and any mention of it getting stripped from the web. To the point that the _creator of the show_ went "Yeah, if you wanna watch it - go pirate it". I just, I just can't comprehend the logic in all of this. How is shelfing a product you've ALREADY SPEND MONEY ON, is supposed to save you money? How does that writes off taxes? It is perhaps not the height of the inhumanity, but very close to it. Corporations are not your friends, they aren't even tolerable, they are your **enemy.**
I recently played through a bizarre japanese point and click horror game from 1999, called "Garage: Bad Dream Adventure" I found out about it from a video, which explained that it only had 3000 copies made because the publisher pulled out at the 11th hour. It took years for people in the west to discover the game and track down a copy, and it got a fan translation in 2019(?), which likely is the reason it wss remastered for mobile and steam in 2021 It is an unbelievably uncomfortable and strange game, an unforgettable experience. Who knows what kind of obscure oddities have been pulled from online storefronts, never to be seen again
Any project that gets written off for taxes should have any and all assets made for it put in the public domain. If we're paying for it, we should have access to it.
I think another insidious aspect of this is that if a piece of media is taken off streaming, the writers and actors aren’t going to get the residuals. You know, The residuals that were a huge talking point of the biggest Hollywood strike in years that just finished up? It feels like such a middle finger to everything SAG and WGA worked to get.
Coming off a "Spongebob Boyz" backlog binge and being greeted with a Less Is Morgue character was a proper jumpscare. Small world, ey? Cheers, Sco- wait a fucking second I looked into it further and apparently "Scott Thomas" (whoever that is) was on the writers' team for that. FUCKING ALGORITHM bringing me to both channels seemingly completely independently (you first from the FNAF v Undertale breakdown, something I have a general interest in, and Gus's-channel-of-varying-name second off the back of Hiding in Private's Lily Orchard takedown which led me to Gus's "Two Professional Writers" one). Originally, I was going to make a comment about this being an "artificially small world" but the events happening in that order belay no obvious algorithmic tampering. The algorithm was recommending the Gus-channel video rather incessantly though and I ignored it thinking it was potentially just going to be in the "rantsona owners uncritically clowning on the Internet's villain of the week" genre (fear was unfounded) so I suppose that goes some way to explaining this. Hope this anecdote was of at least some interest. Cheers, Scott, for another great video.
this isn't lost media per se but I remember when I was about 9 years old my mom and I picking up an old horror comedy movie from the 90's called Highway to Hell. It's a pretty middling but entertaining and goofy film on its own but my mom had seen it a billion times and loved it and she wanted to share that love she had for this goofy little movie with her son. I went along with it because I was obsessed with horror films as a kid and needed no further persuading and needless to say that film has left an imprint on my soul because of how much fun I had while watching it with my mom that night. It will always be a treasured memory of mine and is a pillar of the bond between my mom and I... all from a 90's horror movie where a guy traverses hell to rescue his girlfriend whilst evading mad max biker gangs. homicidal ice cream men and a hell cop ( I'm not kidding, apparently the devil has its own law enforcement on the payroll.) Since we rented the flick we had to return it a few days later and I didn't watch it again for a long time. I remember when I was about 15 or 16 I finally undertook the endeavor of finding an actual copy of this film for my moms birthday which was a difficult task to say the least ( mainly because I was a dumb teenager but also trying to track down a physical copy of a direct to video film from the 90's that not a ton of people saw wasn't making things easy for me.) When I finally found a VHS copy that wasn't absolutely totaled from the ravages of time I bought it immediately; and I cannot describe the pure joy of watching my mom unwrap that stupid little movie from its packaging and how utterly astonished and excited she was that her doofus son had managed to track down a copy just for her. We watched it again that night and it may as well have been like watching it again for the first time because it was exactly as it was that first night all those years ago; laughing and smiling and just thankful to share in an experience with each other. My mom still keeps her VCR around just in case we feel like watching it again (and lord knows we have.) To bring it all home I think my little story is a pretty simple but resonant example of why media needs to be preserved. I was brought closer to my mother because some soul recognized that this film needed to be held onto and saved so other could enjoy it though I'm sure they also just probably needed some cash or to downsize but despite that they were still kind enough to allow me to purchase it from them and as a result I get to not only enjoy this film for many years down the road with my mom and remember a great memory with her when things weren't the best around that time, but I've also gotten to share the film with friends and family who loved it too and someday when I have kids of my own; I 'll share it with them too and make even more memories. That's the reason for preserving media to our best efforts. To be able to share and spread the joy and wonder that these things may have brought us with those closest and have them continue to do the same and so on and so forth for years and even generations to come. (sorry I got a little hallmark soap opera there at the end.)
The biggest one to me was the removal of the Swamp Thing show from HBO max. Danged WB for making a really good horror series and then just poof, its gone.
would you ever consider doing a follow-up video focusing on animation/cartoons? this issue is even more prevalent in animation spaces, and i've personally seen so many shows get cancelled or otherwise erased, most notably the looney tunes movie that got fully produced but is never seeing the light of day due to the company's execs ://
Its so sad that these movies and shows are purged out of exsistence just bc they basically bombed their 'opening weekends' Some movies need time to become cult classics, hell, megamind bombed when it was first released and now almost 15 years later its a cult classic and beloved by many! Its so annoying that if something instantly popular, it gets purged or canceled
As a (pretty bad) game developer the idea that something you spend days working on can just poof into the void because you didn’t meet some quota scares me a lot
I feel like a good middle ground for both tax purposes and archival ability would be that media can be written off, but for it to be tax deductible it must be placed in some sort of publicly accessible third party. So Crater could be removed from Disney+, but to get a tax write off for it they would need to give it to a form of PBS so that people can watch it as they please.This entity could be funded by either advertisements ran during the playback similar to how many cable or RUclips channels run, or a tax could be levied against the studios to take care of the cost of maintaining the site and its growing data storage needs. The only downside I can see here is I feel like some companies would rather watch the money burn that release product for free.
On the "but the actors, staffers, etc got paid" note it's also worth pointing out that Hollywood tends to operate on residuals...lower upfront payment with the potential of enduring payments years and decades after release. Sure, if viewing was way down enough it's likely the views/monetization may never have reached the levels where residuals would kick in. However, you never know if a "Lost Gems" list may have resulted in a movie like Crater getting the sort of belated attention and views that would allow its participants to make some extra money a la Scott Pilgrim. This could lead to an uncomfortable precedent that makes actors, FX artists, etc. even less likely to take a risk on certain types of projects. I'm glad Crater was brought back but to your point, not everything else will have the same fate.
Well Bandai and Studio Pierrot just keep Actively trying to pretend to Tegami Bachi Doesn’t Exist, They keep removing it from streaming platforms and they for some reason blocked the word Tegami Bachi from there inquiry forums, not only that but they call the word tegami Bachi “harassment”.
@@yellowstarproductions6743 I dont know why I said two(either lack of sleep or because its an anthology) but Infinity Train was taken off HBO Max for like no reason
I think if you create art and share it with the world it should be forced into the public domain if you refuse to provide a means for people to access it.
This is why physical media should stay, if Carter come out on Disney plus and also Blu-ray in the same time in first place Then it not lost media . Streaming ruin everything and damn the executive !
If Treasure Planet was released today (it would probably become a massive success), in the suits eyes, it wouldn't be good enough. And be lost, possibly forever. Truly tragic (or its success would give us a bunch of shitty sequels, not sure which would be worse).
BBC Legal have a record going back to the 80s of suing people who had lost episodes which they supplied, for free, to BBC Entertainment (not Who - I think they know they'd be dragged into the street if they did something stupid with someone giving them a lost story segment of an equally lost series)
HI Scott- I agree with the point of your video and think its BS that disney removed The Crater from disney plus, but I just wanted to point out that the Crater is still available elsewhere (amazon, youtube etc.) for rental/purchase- so not really lost in the same way other media is. Just thought it should be pointed out since it's the primary example in your video.
I’m testing your honor Scott. Like and pin this comment or I will dox you
I did work for Crater and the news of its removal is devastating for me. It's one of the few things I've worked on that have genuinely moved me to tears. I effing love that movie and am glad I have a copy saved.
Good for you
I'm so sorry this happened. Despite the fact it was removed, you can't know how many people actually saw it, and it might have changed some lives in ways you won't see. But even the smallest actions of art and kindness can change the course of the future. so, thank you
Sure jan
@@billybobbobson3797 guy who doesn't do anything hearing about other people having lives: getting a lot of lying vibes from this...
not technically a fully lost media situation but i remember when infinity train was pulled from everything despite it trending for over a month on twitter when that mattered and people begging for more seasons to be made. Then all the dvd sets were sold out immediately because people wanted to make sure theyd be able to still watch it. even if the show is popular the company can decide that its not part of their brand and decide to get rid of it which is really messed up to me
So true😢
Edit: I meant true
I've noticed this is a practice online and quite frankly, it's so scary how much media companies are tossing out the window.
Remember kids, pirating from big companies is always morally correct.
agreed.
If something is made only to hoard it or keep it from its intended audience, then it's not piracy; its reclamation.
I've always been a firm believer that every film is someone's favorite film, for whatever reason. This ability to just delete years of work in an instant is just insane. And yeah, it sucks that we're living in a time where profit is the sole motivation for entertainment.
agreed.
8:21 so true 8:31
It's almost as burning books. Which is a bad sign. A very bad one
And sometimes a film is only the favourite film of its producer's accountants, and that's fine.
I'm a tax accountant (so prepare for me to get real off-topic in the weeds about this lol) and I got curious wtf tax write-off they were getting, since usually for tax purposes you'd write off expenses to produce/market/sell the movie (+ amortization probably, but not relevant here so I'm not gonna get into it). So I poked through their last SEC filing for fiscal year '23 (10/1/22 - 9/30/23) and they took a cool 2.6 billion in what's called impairment charges for what they so eloquently describe as a "strategic change in approach to content curation" (pft, sure, I guess). NOW that doesn't actually mean they get to write all that off on their taxes!
An impairment charge basically means you're saying "this thing I have is worth less than what it was listed as before, so it would be lying if we DIDN'T write the cost of it down" (note: you can't do this in the opposite direction and say your thing is worth more). Also important to know is that what they report to the SEC & the public is NOT the same as what they report to the IRS and are ultimately taxed on (financial vs tax reporting). So that 2.6 billion impairment charge is something that reduces their income on a financial basis and might affect their stock price but otherwise doesn't realllly do jack shit for them.
Now on a tax basis, the IRS doesn't let people take impairment charges willy-nilly and expect to be able to take a deduction for it, so their impairment rules are a little different. Instead of you saying "hey this thing is worth less than it was before and so I would like to report it as being worth less", the IRS requires COMPLETE DISPOSAL/ABANDONMENT of the underlying asset. Aka you don't get to impair shit unless you say that thing is completely worthless to you and kick it to the curb.
SO OF COURSE, WHAT DOES DISNEY DO? Sneaky bastards, they just start wiping shit from the platform and are counting that as abandonment and THAT'S how they're able to write this off their taxes (benefit to them is gonna be 2.6 billion times whatever their tax rate is, so not one-to-one 2.6 billion back but still what we in the business refer to as a shit ton of money). Mega corporations are incapable of looking at a tax law without finding some way to exploit and get around it, to the surprise of no one.
tl;dr - IRS has a rule that you can't just claim your stuff is worth less and expect to pay less tax unless you commit and actually get rid of it, disney goes "okay bet" and gets rid of their stuff, now disney gets to pay less taxes and that's why they're wiping movies off the platform entirely instead of allowing them to exist anywhere else.
Anyway, sorry for talking way too much about taxes on your fun media analysis video!
Cool as hell interesting comment ‼️‼️‼️
Thank you, this really helped me understand!
I really appreciate this comment, because I know very little about economics and business, so I was just left wondering why Disney couldn't just leave it on their platform, "surely and can't be that expensive," I thought. But this makes a lot of sense for explaining why they'd decide to just remove it entirely.
Shouldn't this practice be illegal? Like, creating media only to cancel/remove it as a tax write off feels very illegal and almost like money laundering. Shouldn't the Federal government be getting involved in all this?
Stop being such a fed
the cia's black budget is like 100 billion dollars. bold of you to assume the federal government isn't also money laundering
Oh you sweet summer child who do you think is the undisputed king of money laundering 😂
i mean they don't _make_ money off it. they just don't have to pay taxes because it was a loss.
edit: that's not to say it's not scummy and awful. but i'm not sure how they could make it illegal. what if things like movies were required to be donated to the library of congress if they're removed from distribution?
It definitely feels like fraud at the very least
As a film major who’s really passionate about this topic this is probably one of the best video essays I’ve seen on it, thank you for talking about it!
agreed.
Never heard of Crater but I do think all media should be best preserved the best they can
agreed.
This is why I still buy DVDs and Blu-Rays of my favourite films and shows.
Agreed.
Also I am going buy dvds of my favorite movies in the future when I am independent
They did also used to actually put most things out on DVD/Bluray, which meant no matter what happened to the rights or whatever, you still had it. Barely any of these streaming shows and movies get home media releases, which makes piracy the *only* option a lot more often than it used to be.
It's like with gaming in the last years. That "You gotta get used to not owning the games" shit... It's basically the same with gaming stream services and digital copies. One little error, your console breaking or not enough money or some bad decision from a company, and your game is non accesible even after you paid for it...
Reminds me how the only way I can watch Megas XLR in the US, a really fun cartoon from back in the day, is by pirating it because it was written off by Cartoon Network. No toys were made, no DVD releases, not even reran on television anymore. These companies have been doing this even before streaming, and the fact it's legal to do it is sickening.
True
The way Megas XLR was treated will never not be tragic to me.
What really bugs me about things like Crater is that a lot of really beloved movies were massive commercial flops in their time and had to claw back over the decades, first becoming cult classics and, eventually, growing into genuine classics in their own right. Now I'm not especially inclined to think Crater would have taken that path, but it's tragic to imagine it and all the movies like it that might never get that chance.
Agreed.
Yeah, like it's honestly so depressing that, with the current trend toward nuking anything that isn't a mega blockbuster, we'll probably never get another Rocky Horror Picture Show again, not unless the winds change.
What’s worse about lost media is that behind it is an industry that is built upon the most passionate, creative, and talented individuals working for the greedy corporate elite that only seeks to drive a profit.
If the SAG strikes have showed us anything is that art cannot exist for art’s sake and must generate some money even at the expense of the minds who produce it.
Agreed.
I’m still waiting on my “I script consulted this white boy” sticker, Scott
True
Thank you for making this Scott
Same
Companies nowadays are only focused on creating brands. It's why we see sequels and reboots consistently. It's easier to create something that people remember liking back in the day and making easy money from nostalgia than it is to create something new. I believe that once Disney saw Crater wouldn't be something to easily create a sequel too, they decided to close up shop and remove it. But now, I wonder if we'll see something Crater adjacent in the future
Honestly I blame the writers more than anything. The writers have gotten far worse but demand better treatment.
fantastic video! i hate this new practice of canning movies just because of tax write offs, it's so scummy and frustrating
Agreed.
And once again, the terror and awe of our collective imaginations is dwarfed by the depressing reality of wholly unimaginative business execs.
Sobering sentiments aside, this is just another battlefield for SAG and WGA to make sure they try and at least keep pace with the monsters that sign their paychecks. Even if the fight is fought far from our view, it will be fought nonetheless. We can at least continue to show our support of such entities for as long as they fight
Agreed.
This is amazing "further reading" content for Jacob Geller's "How Can We Bear to Throw Anything Away?"
Eyyyyy a fellow Less is Morgue fan!
But yeah, seeing people’s passion projects being unceremoniously wiped from existence is both heartbreaking and infuriating. And it’s always the ones with the most passionate people behind them! Always! Coyote vs. Acme, Popeye, Infinity Train, Final Space, so many projects with so much love behind them, all up in smoke just to make some sleazebag shareholders a quick buck. I think you’re spot on with how the backlash to Crater’s removal will set a precedent for future write offs. This really is one of the worse time lines.
16:09 seeing virgina grohl's movie there felt like a gut punch. Like, not even rockstars or their parents are safe from being deleted ://
Same here
so happy you're back!!
Pretty much the same thing is happening to video games, comics, and... products in general, honestly.
I think the best thing to do is to figure out a way to make the people in control realize that preservation can, in fact, be profitable, while also ensuring that they never have full control over how it's done - so that the people who actually give a shit can work in peace.
We also need to culturally make a looooot of people understand that those who pirate movies or games or comics don't do just so they can have something for free. That way, it'll make it easier to have less opposition towards it, since "stealing is objectively bad" is the prevalent idea corporations make use of to prevent underground preservation work to be supported.
The "how" is the truly hard part. There would need to be a large-scale, meticulous study of any country in which such steps can be taken, to make sure the economic and cultural landscape of each individual place is understood, and then used in favor of the media preservation effort.
Tl;dr: it's gonna be hard and complicated.
Oh, and hi Scott! Your bisexual-lookin' thirst humor bits have been making me laugh since the Undertale/FNAF video😂 Always catches me off-guard, _love_ to see it. XD
Thanks for anyone who bothered to read all this, btw. Y'all take care, yeah?
agreed.
So many films, video games, TV shows, ETC. that have found such great success today, were BOMBS when they first released, performing terribly at first, but eventually became classics years later. In a world were media is ERASED from existence if it doesn't come out the gate SWINGING, and outperforms expectations within the blink of an eye, how can media possibly ever find it's audience without getting extremely, astronomically lucky?
This whole movies as a tax write off thing just makes me sure that a) I have no fucking idea how taxes work and b) capitalism is a scam only the rich are truly capable of benefiting from.
The cast and crew who worked on that film were productive and got paid to make something nobody is going to look at, like every electrician and plumber ever. This kept a few dozen/ hundred people off of welfare/food stamps for a few weeks/ months/ years. If keeping the worst people and most useless people in society off the dole isn't worth a kickback from the government I don't know what is.
Edit. This point was addressed halfway through the video. I stand by it. Before home video release movies were seen when they were in theaters and never again. Plays are seen that night by those present and nobody else. We don't have a right to every frame captured on camera ever. We just like it.
same, tax write offs still seem so much like fraud on a tolerated level, like I hear several people talk about "can you recommend me 'insert equipment here'", "my father works in 'this field' and he can write this off with his taxes" just seems to weird to me, you buy an expensive camera or such, and can just say, "yeah that's for work purposes", but in reality your child gets it as a present.
Yep.
Thank you for all the hard work put into this
i've been binging your videos for a bit while playin games and thank you so much for making this video. where i live and the people i surround myself with are always unconcerned for the sanctity of media and human art, and i feel like im losing my mind because no one seems to care. its unfortunate this video hasnt been seen by more eyes but id say its a great one from you, and highly appreciated
The viewcount of the two videos that sandwich this one is like the sale count of the Wii, Wii U, and the Switch
Words cannot express how horrifying all of this is to me.
I’m not even close to a video games guy but I’ve watched your video games-related videos multiple times because of how great they are. And then somehow when you make a video that would normally be more appealing to me, RUclips takes 3 months to recommend it! Great video though.
You're right about the algorithm suppressing this because I love lost media content and I'm subbed. Glad you mad the community post cause I would've missed it
thx scott, rly enjoy ur content
Thanks for all the hard work you do! This was a great video. :D
my dad and i were just trying to watch squibillies the other day on hbo max and apparently over the summer they got rid of it (except the 13th season????) possibly to sell it to paramount. there are dvds available, but they're super expensive :( shit sucks man. ig the old adult swim cartoons weren't making enough them money anymore?
Another great Spaceman Scott video, kinda mad RUclips didn't notify me about the upload but happy i found it anyways,
Hope you have a great Night/Day and can't wait for the next one!!!
The point you make at 18:00 about Disney's win-win was exactly how they operated their home video releases in the 1990s. Value through scarcity. This is nothing new and should not be a surprise.
A good video! It's my first time seeing my own username on a patreon list! Not over your voice. Seriously, smooth as butter 😳 LOL
No, but you make some good points. It sucks that media is at the whim of the corporate overlords. And the whole tax write-off is SO ugly.
mega interesting stuff, thank you for putting it all together!! 100% subscribed
I got an ad for Disney’s Wish and that isn’t lost on me. Anyways, the appeal to me of lost media has always been unfortunately a soul crushing reason, knowing someone’s or some groups hard work has gone to waste is genuinely heartbreaking. The fact it will get worse due to executive’s capitalist decisions, is just so damn bleak. People being scared of taking risks is a horrible thing! Media can’t evolve without taking risks! But intentionally removing something, having backlash to said removal, and then restoring it yet STILL making money off of the new attention? Gosh it’s just… really scummy. The only person who loses in the situation is the audience and the crew who worked on the project, or wanted to work on the project. It’s going to discourage new creators from literally creating anything, and that’s the worst thing you can possibly do to a human. (There’s also something to be said of ‘sunk cost fallacy’ with projects stuck in development hell but that’s a whole other conservation I think).
i just found your channel today and i’ve pretty much finished all of your videos hahaha your work is amazing dude keep it up
Here's something you can do: ARCHIVE MEDIA by digital AND physical means
and remember to UPDATE YOUR PHYSICAL COPIES. VHS tapes can and will wear out and become unusable over time
remember kids: the digitization is part of how lost media restoration is only going to get harder. they can't come and take your legally-purchased DVD of Disney's Atlantis, but they CAN wipe Crater from the face of the earth because its sole release was under their impenetrable control, the ability to permanently bar any and all access to it at their green-stained fingertips.
my grandpa used to burn CDs and DVDs for my family back in the day, and it scares me to think we could be in possession of one of the final few copies of any movie, some of the only evidence that it was EVER made-- etched illegally onto a small round disk with some Sharpie writing on it.
The unfortunate reality is that storing digital media takes space. LOTS of space, on hard drives and servers that take up physical space and cost money to maintain. That's why so many streaming services feature shows and movies for a limited amount of time. While viewership remains high, they can justify the cost of storing that media. But as time passes, and interest wanes, removals happen by necessity. But waiting less than 2 months to decide if a piece of media is worth keeping is insane. You can't judge streaming releases by the same criteria as theater and television releases.
I know this video underperformed, but it’s really good! Every day I see less and less reason to use a streaming service-first I didn’t use any because I don’t have the spare money, then it was because there were so many that I couldn’t choose, and then they do shit like this, and it sucks
I feel like laws should be revised so that if companies want to scrap projects as a tax writeoff, then at the very least the final product (or the closest thing to the final product they have) should be released to the public free of charge. This way the tax writeoff is closer to the one you get for making charitable donations - the company is in this case giving a product to the people instead of tax dollars.
I really like your videos, my dude
Agreed
god i missed that smooth scott-like voice
It's so terrifying to think I could make someone just for it to be gone in a week
19:36 outro music (gum)
Criminally underrated content.
Disney just can't help make the Seven Seas a better option huh.
I've no interest in the movie but to the right kid at the right time it could be Their Thing that gets them interested in space or gives them comfort at a very dark time. They won't be able to have a copy to reference unless it's illegal, much like my old VHS of Flight of the Navigator.
Edit: shoulda watched the whole thing before commenting. Point still stands though.
People always say physical media is dead, in both movies and gaming, which is always odd to me considering we literally got confirmation from the Insomniac Hacked info that 60% of the sales are still on disc.
A future type of lost media - RUclipsr sponsor ads. Many youtubers have unique ads that will eventually disappear once their channels go away.
Crater is whatever, what riles me off is that they've been doing that to the already released animation works, like Infinity Train. It got _three_ season renevals before disappearing off the streaming services and any mention of it getting stripped from the web. To the point that the _creator of the show_ went "Yeah, if you wanna watch it - go pirate it".
I just, I just can't comprehend the logic in all of this. How is shelfing a product you've ALREADY SPEND MONEY ON, is supposed to save you money? How does that writes off taxes?
It is perhaps not the height of the inhumanity, but very close to it. Corporations are not your friends, they aren't even tolerable, they are your **enemy.**
I recently played through a bizarre japanese point and click horror game from 1999, called "Garage: Bad Dream Adventure"
I found out about it from a video, which explained that it only had 3000 copies made because the publisher pulled out at the 11th hour. It took years for people in the west to discover the game and track down a copy, and it got a fan translation in 2019(?), which likely is the reason it wss remastered for mobile and steam in 2021
It is an unbelievably uncomfortable and strange game, an unforgettable experience.
Who knows what kind of obscure oddities have been pulled from online storefronts, never to be seen again
Any project that gets written off for taxes should have any and all assets made for it put in the public domain. If we're paying for it, we should have access to it.
you deserve way more subs man
I saw Crater on Prime after its removal from Disney plus.
It isn't so bad.
I think another insidious aspect of this is that if a piece of media is taken off streaming, the writers and actors aren’t going to get the residuals. You know, The residuals that were a huge talking point of the biggest Hollywood strike in years that just finished up? It feels like such a middle finger to everything SAG and WGA worked to get.
this is genuinely terrifying. This needs to stop. these massive companies need to change or fall, because the direction we're going is toxic.
Coming off a "Spongebob Boyz" backlog binge and being greeted with a Less Is Morgue character was a proper jumpscare. Small world, ey? Cheers, Sco- wait a fucking second I looked into it further and apparently "Scott Thomas" (whoever that is) was on the writers' team for that. FUCKING ALGORITHM bringing me to both channels seemingly completely independently (you first from the FNAF v Undertale breakdown, something I have a general interest in, and Gus's-channel-of-varying-name second off the back of Hiding in Private's Lily Orchard takedown which led me to Gus's "Two Professional Writers" one). Originally, I was going to make a comment about this being an "artificially small world" but the events happening in that order belay no obvious algorithmic tampering. The algorithm was recommending the Gus-channel video rather incessantly though and I ignored it thinking it was potentially just going to be in the "rantsona owners uncritically clowning on the Internet's villain of the week" genre (fear was unfounded) so I suppose that goes some way to explaining this.
Hope this anecdote was of at least some interest. Cheers, Scott, for another great video.
this isn't lost media per se but I remember when I was about 9 years old my mom and I picking up an old horror comedy movie from the 90's called Highway to Hell. It's a pretty middling but entertaining and goofy film on its own but my mom had seen it a billion times and loved it and she wanted to share that love she had for this goofy little movie with her son. I went along with it because I was obsessed with horror films as a kid and needed no further persuading and needless to say that film has left an imprint on my soul because of how much fun I had while watching it with my mom that night. It will always be a treasured memory of mine and is a pillar of the bond between my mom and I... all from a 90's horror movie where a guy traverses hell to rescue his girlfriend whilst evading mad max biker gangs. homicidal ice cream men and a hell cop ( I'm not kidding, apparently the devil has its own law enforcement on the payroll.) Since we rented the flick we had to return it a few days later and I didn't watch it again for a long time. I remember when I was about 15 or 16 I finally undertook the endeavor of finding an actual copy of this film for my moms birthday which was a difficult task to say the least ( mainly because I was a dumb teenager but also trying to track down a physical copy of a direct to video film from the 90's that not a ton of people saw wasn't making things easy for me.) When I finally found a VHS copy that wasn't absolutely totaled from the ravages of time I bought it immediately; and I cannot describe the pure joy of watching my mom unwrap that stupid little movie from its packaging and how utterly astonished and excited she was that her doofus son had managed to track down a copy just for her. We watched it again that night and it may as well have been like watching it again for the first time because it was exactly as it was that first night all those years ago; laughing and smiling and just thankful to share in an experience with each other. My mom still keeps her VCR around just in case we feel like watching it again (and lord knows we have.) To bring it all home I think my little story is a pretty simple but resonant example of why media needs to be preserved. I was brought closer to my mother because some soul recognized that this film needed to be held onto and saved so other could enjoy it though I'm sure they also just probably needed some cash or to downsize but despite that they were still kind enough to allow me to purchase it from them and as a result I get to not only enjoy this film for many years down the road with my mom and remember a great memory with her when things weren't the best around that time, but I've also gotten to share the film with friends and family who loved it too and someday when I have kids of my own; I 'll share it with them too and make even more memories. That's the reason for preserving media to our best efforts. To be able to share and spread the joy and wonder that these things may have brought us with those closest and have them continue to do the same and so on and so forth for years and even generations to come. (sorry I got a little hallmark soap opera there at the end.)
The biggest one to me was the removal of the Swamp Thing show from HBO max. Danged WB for making a really good horror series and then just poof, its gone.
Maybe someone should just download this video. Just in case. JUST in case.
Good idea
would you ever consider doing a follow-up video focusing on animation/cartoons? this issue is even more prevalent in animation spaces, and i've personally seen so many shows get cancelled or otherwise erased, most notably the looney tunes movie that got fully produced but is never seeing the light of day due to the company's execs ://
Literally crying at the fuck you makeout bit 😭
Wtf. This quality is too good like an industry plant.
Its so sad that these movies and shows are purged out of exsistence just bc they basically bombed their 'opening weekends'
Some movies need time to become cult classics, hell, megamind bombed when it was first released and now almost 15 years later its a cult classic and beloved by many!
Its so annoying that if something instantly popular, it gets purged or canceled
The unexpected Glup Shitto reference had me laugh out loud.
As a (pretty bad) game developer the idea that something you spend days working on can just poof into the void because you didn’t meet some quota scares me a lot
Isn't this literally the plot of The Producers
Stg didn’t know you posted this. Ig i should look at my subs feed more.
I feel like a good middle ground for both tax purposes and archival ability would be that media can be written off, but for it to be tax deductible it must be placed in some sort of publicly accessible third party. So Crater could be removed from Disney+, but to get a tax write off for it they would need to give it to a form of PBS so that people can watch it as they please.This entity could be funded by either advertisements ran during the playback similar to how many cable or RUclips channels run, or a tax could be levied against the studios to take care of the cost of maintaining the site and its growing data storage needs. The only downside I can see here is I feel like some companies would rather watch the money burn that release product for free.
My guy!
Reminds me of those lost classic Doctor Who episodes that were found in 2014.
My boy!
My man!
why THE FUCK does this not have like a million views? this is damn good :)
its not
On the "but the actors, staffers, etc got paid" note it's also worth pointing out that Hollywood tends to operate on residuals...lower upfront payment with the potential of enduring payments years and decades after release.
Sure, if viewing was way down enough it's likely the views/monetization may never have reached the levels where residuals would kick in. However, you never know if a "Lost Gems" list may have resulted in a movie like Crater getting the sort of belated attention and views that would allow its participants to make some extra money a la Scott Pilgrim. This could lead to an uncomfortable precedent that makes actors, FX artists, etc. even less likely to take a risk on certain types of projects.
I'm glad Crater was brought back but to your point, not everything else will have the same fate.
Spaceman Scoot video is nice to see
seeing another hi im chris fan is what made me subscribe, yk... other than the amazing content
Well Bandai and Studio Pierrot just keep Actively trying to pretend to Tegami Bachi Doesn’t Exist, They keep removing it from streaming platforms and they for some reason blocked the word Tegami Bachi from there inquiry forums, not only that but they call the word tegami Bachi “harassment”.
Crater was my favorite movie, star Wars was my favorite franchise, and Disney ruined both of those.
"if buying isnt owning, then piracy isnt theft" -idk someone probably
A similar thing happened to two favorite shows of mine
please give their names
@@yellowstarproductions6743 I dont know why I said two(either lack of sleep or because its an anthology) but Infinity Train was taken off HBO Max for like no reason
@@yellowstarproductions6743 Although it is still available for purchase by buying each season, its also not guranteed it will be available forever
i dident even know this movie came out
New sub and I'm binge watching.🎉
My elder!
17:09 - Hi Doggy.
I think if you create art and share it with the world it should be forced into the public domain if you refuse to provide a means for people to access it.
I remember having to burn down a homeless shelter every time I wanted to use my TiVo.
Idk why but when you said "by design" my brain decided u sounded like will grahm XD
My god
This is why physical media should stay, if Carter come out on Disney plus and also Blu-ray in the same time in first place Then it not lost media . Streaming ruin everything and damn the executive !
20 years of hard labor before retirement? That's just military service. If you make it that long.
Good video :)
If Treasure Planet was released today (it would probably become a massive success), in the suits eyes, it wouldn't be good enough. And be lost, possibly forever. Truly tragic (or its success would give us a bunch of shitty sequels, not sure which would be worse).
BBC Legal have a record going back to the 80s of suing people who had lost episodes which they supplied, for free, to BBC Entertainment (not Who - I think they know they'd be dragged into the street if they did something stupid with someone giving them a lost story segment of an equally lost series)
This is why I am a Kopimist.
HI Scott- I agree with the point of your video and think its BS that disney removed The Crater from disney plus, but I just wanted to point out that the Crater is still available elsewhere (amazon, youtube etc.) for rental/purchase- so not really lost in the same way other media is. Just thought it should be pointed out since it's the primary example in your video.
he points that out at the end of the video