which is hilarious since they are not dorn's sons when their genseed is examined. So part of the imperial fists after the war of the beast is made of non dorn sons since they gave a part of the chapter to reform the fists.
"Dorn found this spear and fixed it up and gave it to them." ...he wouldn't have happened to have found it off the body of the individual who was Alpharius, who was actually Omegon, who was pretending to be Alpharius, would he...?
also Kirioth gets really down in the weeds pointing out how confusing who can or cannot activate the Soul Spear without ever considering "what if they were just assuming only certain people can activate it and that's actually not a thing?" He doesn't bring up a counter example of someone not being able to activate it to establish the rule, just people saying only certain people can.
@@burnin8able when the blood angel told them they wernt dorns, sarpedon was heartbroken. he shouted out that they had taken everything and now they were taking away dorn too. a son of dorn WAS needed however, to open the portal and release the giant daemon in the sun the phalanx was orbiting.
Fun fact, that Nurgle Daemon Prince the Soul Drinkers killed in that first book wasn't some big plague monster, it was a virus living in a bunch of corpses that had a single cursed bolter between them
My theory as to why Lysander can operate the soulspear has to do with the War of the Beast. At the end of the War of the Beast, the Imperial Fists had been destroyed. Each of their successor chapters donated a portion of their geneseed to rebuild the Fists, and one of those chapters was the Soul Drinkers. Therefore Lysander could have at least alittle Soul Drinker geneseed in him, which could allow him to operate the soulspear. At least, in theory
I was going to comment the same thing but I'm glad I checked if someone beat me to it. They also stated in First Heretic (and I think other places?) that some of the lost legions ended divided into the Imperial Fists. So Soul Drinkers and Lysander are from the 2nd or 11th legion? Maybe? Edit: Should have kept listening, Kirioth had it.
@@burnin8able another one of daenyathos's lies. they didnt seem to get that when they pointed out the inconsistencies between the two eras, but the whole chaplaincy was taken over and dedicated to his grooming the whole chapter into going renegade. no one remembered the truth anymore because he had rewritten it, and their bible.
@@burnin8able The theory I stated is operating under the assumption that the "Only sons of Dorn" part is false but the "Only Soul Drinkers" part is not
By far the best part of this one was when Kirioth's "And this was all according to the plan." Just the simultaneous "what." of pure bafflement from Bricky and DK that it prompted. Perfection.
Guilliman after learning of the Flesh Terrors, Black Templars, Space Sharks, Marines Malevolent, Sons of the Phoenix, Soul Drinkers, Badab, Vraks, the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, and state of the Imperium: I must say that everyone I have witnessed has been *cringe.”*
Well, in a way, even during their most chaosie of times, they were closer to the vision Jimmy Space initially had for the imperium. If he also is reborn or brought back in the future, the Sould Drinkers are probably among the few chapters he'd be approving of
@sixgunsymphony7408 they kinda did. Sarpedon lost one of his spider legs in battle and had it fixed with a prosthetic. You have to remember though, the original soul drinkers legit thought the mutations were a gift from big E, and even after learning that it was chaos curroption, they still thought that these were gifts from the emperor. I agree with the comment before, that out of almost all the chapters, Big E would probably be cool with the soul drinkers, because they realize that the imperium is bloated and run by people seeking their own gain. They're altercation with the adeptus mechanicus proved that to them.
I like the idea that The Sons of The Pheonix are actually Imperial Fist successors and they were made to be so flagrantly suspicious that they would draw everyone's attention. Everyone would investigate them, go "Oh, Cawl is telling the truth and not doing heretical things," and ignore the hundreds of other space marine chapters of questionable heritage that Cawl was releasing into the woodworks.
I'm going to see Kirioth's quote and raise you a: When all around is darkness When beset by fear and doubt Run in little circles Wave your arms and shout The Soul Drinkers books are _so_ silly which is why they are some of my favourite 40k books. I mean the whole thing is predicated on Sarpedon, a member of the Librarius, not knowing _any_ of the titles Tzeentch goes by, then getting religion and _then_ huffing copium hard enough to believe that spontaneous spider legs are a gift from the Emperor. Also dude with chainswords for hands.
@@levesteMnah, let him stay there. It’s warm and cozy once you get used to it, and for someone who seemed reluctant to enter it, Bricky doesn’t seem to mind too much
An Interrogator dueling a Space Marine might sound crazy but you also have to consider that physical superiority can only take you so far ahead. An interrogator is an exceptional person who will usually have incredibly powerful augmentations and depending on the inquisitor, might even be decked out in power armor. They represented a Lord Inquisitor, a powerful member of the most powerful organization in the Imperium. The idea that he could duel a space marine isn't actually that unbelievable even in more recent writing.
I found that whole section of discussion rather odd. The whole movie marine thing was established as a meme by 2002 even if the Gaunt's Ghosts did kill one, and any marine can always be taken down by sheer weight of fire so even in that early rather janky effort of a novel it's totally not out of order, hell I think that was around White Dwarf did their for fun 'lore accurate' marine rules. Marines haven't been regular guys in nice armour since like 2nd, and that came out in... oof '93. I read it as a properly young 'un back then but even so. Hell, possibly even before that if I remember right as they got their first stat upgrades to make them more impressive and super-human compared to the original Rogue Trader versions in a compendium before 2nd even came out.
Space Marines are not just physically stronger. They're faster, have better reaction times, hav a tons of special abilities like being able to spit acid. A single astartes is a raid boss for regular humane, 1v1 the human is gonna lose
Some random guard guy (that's a disservice, I think it was colonel Vauban) duels honsou in storm of iron The strength of space marines varies all the time, it's part of the 40k charm
Cain also duels a Khornate Berserker briefly. Space Marines are inhumanly fast and strong but really exceptional human fighters can give them some trouble, even if they usually don't win without some outside stuff.
Hearing about that fight between Sarpedon & Lysandre makes me thing of that one Lythero UMVC3 clip where a Pheonix Wright player just WALKS unharmed through a mega Hadouken after the opposing player says "I MUST DO THIS!"
So the Pale Spear fell into Loyalist hands after Dorn killed Alpharius at the Battle of Pluto and importantly _no one knows what Dorn did with it or where it went._ So the idea that the Pale Spear = the Soul Spear is plausible on that front, but they are described differently so I do think they are different weapons. Also, big ups to the rando Interrogator who looked at Sarpedon and said "Yeah I'd win"
I was literally just reading about these poor sods a couple of days ago after a friend mentioned liking their colors. That guy is a Emperors Children simpleton, so makes sense. Scoffs in Imperial Knight royalty
they didnt even do anything wrong. thats the worst part of all of it. the ad mech roll up on them, point their guns at them and steal their most prized relic, then have the audacity to launch and orbital cannon at them when they ask for it back. and when they simply disable the ships and leave, the inquisition showsd up and says "surrender to be tortured to death and shamed or be tortured to death and shamed". the architect really didnt have to do much at that point.
We will have to see if they talk about this theory: that these guys were actually 2ed or 11th Legions. As Malcador outright stated the lost legions had their memories wiped before being absorbed into other legions. Due to Guiliman and Dorn being the ones to advocate for this, it is implied the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists got the majority of the lost legion remnants. Thus is would sure as heck explain why you have these 2ed Founding successors with a unique geneflaw who were 100% certain they were Fists successors until someone checked their geneseed
The imperial fists also cleared some loyalist’s from traitor legions to serve alongside them during the heresy. We don’t know what happened to them, they disappeared from the records after the heresy (James Workshop hasn’t decided what happened to them yet) they could have been a chapter founded under Dorns name to protect loyalists from persecution. That might also explain their deep veneration for Dorn.
Charcaradons are the second legion. They fought when the emperor was alive so an original legion and fulgrim says in a book that the 2nd primarch was his quiet brother which is a major charcaradons characteristic
It's weird, you'd figure they would make a bigger point of that in the books but the only time (at least in recent memory) I've read it referenced was in the Kharn book. In any case, it makes more sense how Chapters maintain their numbers despite so many marines throwing themselves into situations where their remains can't be recovered.
Guilliman learning of the Soul Drinkers: *Ultra Facepalm* “Flesh Terrors, Black Templars, Space Sharks, Marines Malevolent, Sons of the Phoenix, now Soul Drinkers… By Father, WWHHYYY?” Local Centurion: “That is because they are absolute lunatics.” Guilliman: *shocked* “Who are you, Where did you come from and How Long have you been standing there?”
I remember the book with the trial of the Soul Drinkers was the first 40k book I read. There's a weird part of the trial in which some Astartes that I think were Blood Angels successors dedicated to recording and studying geneseed tell everybody: "Hey we looked at the SD's geneseed and, man it was fucked up so we couldn't find out much but we DEFINITELY know they're not Dorn's kids." And then during the Dreadnaught's whole plot, he says: "Oh yeah, I just told everybody we're Imperial Fists cause it was convenient." XD
I would love the idea of a chaos war band that obsessed with having out of body exercises by eating their victims. Or alternatively a single chaos space Marine that's addicted to eating loyalist marines to "feel the light of the emperor"
I really like the idea of the soul drinkers being from the lost primarchs and the imperium LITERALLY retconing history to make them sons of dorn. It explains both why their battle tactics don't match with that of the imperial fists and why the soul spear is never mentioned in relation to dorn anywhere else. Because it's just a little rewriting of history change the name of the lost primarch who had the spear to dorn and bam there you go. And it also implies that the particular lost primarch was probably chaos corrupted because of the nature of the spear and how it works by directly using the power of the warp. Even though the imperium already does that in alot of other places too but still. I also really loved the constant inner conflict they had. With some of them staying loyal to the emperor but not the imperium vs being influenced by chaos and tzeench and having civil wars in their ranks and conspiring against each other. Their story is actually kind of a blast. I really dig the complexity in this case. Super fun episode overall I didn't feel that hour and a half fly by
Been a fan of these guys since I read their omnibus as a teen! Glad to see them get some shine! I was also heart broken that I couldn’t make them in SM2. Get bent hawk lords
As silly as their logic can be I still love the Soul Drinkers. They actually are what got me to love Renegade Marine Chapters who still do good things.
Who *didn't* want to make a spider legged Librarian in that gorgeous color scheme, the moment after reading about it?? Also, it's a Lord Inquisitor's Interrogator. That's a Mini-boss character in other books.
I love how every time AdRic mentions an obscure space marine chapter they’re all like: “How are they loyalist with this kind of Chapter name?” And follows with: Right, but also… F L E S H T E A R E R S 😂
Imagine if, after they were all cracking jokes about how the Knights of Dorn "could be from anybody" - imagine if they were 100% an Alpha legion cell using a cover of being Imperial Fists successors to gather imperial war material, intel, and gene seed.
Kinda sad you glossed over the part where the soul drinkers fight the crimsons fists in the torture chamber of a imperial blackship and sarpadon uses his physic powers to bring back the ghosts of the tortured souls to attack them
This is the Second successor chapter of the Imperial Fists that has been relentlessly fucked with by the greater imperium. When Dorn gets back he's gonna be fucking pissed.
2 things from 15:00 or so: - these books were written in 2002, before a lot of the really fine-grained canon around HH, so while you can retrofit some of that on it wouldn't have been intended. - the Fists have always been boarding specialists as well as defenders. They do run the Phalanx, after all.
I started building an army of Soul Drinkers after the second book came out. I was very amused that I had more models for my army than were still alive during the last two books.
1:21:57 in one of the Dark Imperium books, Cawl talks about how the traitor and lost geneseed he has makes for good Astartes with no flaws. The 2nd and 11th geneseed is not lost.
Even without that knowledge the gene seed could still have been saved from the gene seed tithes the soul drinkers had to do before they were renegades.
from the very first chapter you can tell they arent dorns boys. all sat there in the drop opod in resplendent gold and purple thinking about how amazing and pure they are, much better than all of their brothers, and their dad is literally the greatest of the primarchs...they had a pretty heavy fall off that podium they put themselves on. amazing book series.
1:10:16 nah, the phalanx is definitely a Necron vessel made of black stone… the fact they got even a single small portal opened on it is impressive in the first place…
These guys are my favorite loyalists - my watch fortress has a substantial amount of them in the leadership sing they didn't have a chapter to return to after the... disbanding... of the chapter
The main thing I remember from these books is that the author kept saying that he could "send but not receive" psychic messages or something like that so many times that my buddy and I have been saying "he could send but not receive" for the past 20 years as a joke.
Bricky brings up a point that the power scaling in 40K has changed over time to widen the gap between normal humans and space marines bringing up the first Gaunt's Ghosts novel where Gaunt takes out an iron warrior in the first chapter, but I have an alternate explanation: Gaunt is simply built different. He also counter ambushed a world eaters berserker squad: no friendly casualties. was later ambushed by a black legion TERMINATOR SQUAD: took them all down with no friendly casualties. Guant is peak "nah, I'd win."
Gaunt is a great commander, yeah, but "Nah I'd win" is reckless, and Gaunt just ISN'T reckless. He's not Ciaphas Cain, whose reputation is built on (unearned ;) ) personal skill in combat, he's a very competent officer with clear reasons for the success of the operations he directs. He uses his men to their strengths as best he can, and while ambushing certainly is a major strength of theirs, there's no way they'd all survive a counter-ambush by TERMINATORS without some ridiculous power scaling happening since then.
@@vegladex they were ambushed by a terminator squad while running a 12 man guerilla warfare campaign on a chaos held world. not even the full regiment behind them. 12 guard troopers versus 4 terminators. flawless Guard victory.
@@Sara3346 in that first book where he fights the iron warrior they basically pin him down with suppressing fire and then Gaunt stabs him in the gut with his chainsword. it punches through the less armored part but totally jams up the teeth of the chainsword and gets stuck in there in the process so he has to leave it stuck there. all the times where he fights space marines later he has gotten his relic power sword by that point yeah.
Just a note the imperial fist foundings and it’s own genealogy are really messed up due to some stuff that happens in the war of the beast. So all the only so and so can stuff with the soul spear can be correct. Also the 2nd and 3rd founding stuff. The war of the beast is weird butt fun
Yeah we are not even sure if they are son's of Dorn, seeing as their geneseed was shown to not have any genetic markers to Dorns seed. My money is honestly on them being from Horus' geneseed, due to their similarities to the Luna Wolves
its fucking great when they find the necrons in the veiled regions, and theres just corpses hanging all over this noble estate, and then the corpses open up and flayed ones are hiding inside. also he HAD to duel lysander by the soul drinkers logic. he couldnt just hand over his astartes without a fight, and he knew he wasnt going to win cause he was pretty much done. he ordered his men to stand down before it...especially luko who had been begging to die since gravenholm, before the second chapter war.
An interesting idea to explore would be to look at chapters which do not seem to match their supposed gene-seed, and try to use that to derive the characteristics of the II and XI legions, under the assumption that there are chapters using that material as well.
I believe they're under the aegis of the Black Templars, their en route to Terra to send a "Strongly worded complaint" against the Inquisition. They can try to pull some shit but I think Sigismund's boys will hand "ork snipers" and "Thats straight up an assassin what the hell we're in the middle of a war what the fuck!" a little better.
This was by far one of my favorite episodes. Lots of cool lore from a sect of marines that aren’t really talked about. I hope this trend keeps going for the other factions of the 40K universe
One good example for both terrible duels and whacky power levels in a Warhammer book is the time a freshly minted marine manages to win a duel against an archmagos dominus who is specialized in melee combat.
When the 2nd and 11th legions where killed the remaining astartes of the chapter where given the ultramarines and imperial fists there is a mention in a short story (no I don't remember I will look it up for those who want to read it) the ultramarines got the 2nd legion marine and the imperial fists got the 11th legion marines
At the end of this episode, the talk about the lost Primarchs made me realize. They are doing the Great Crusade series next, they kind of have to have the lost Primarchs during that series.
"Money is a motherfucking joke Forty bald eagles sewn onto a coat Zoo with the crib, mermaid in the moat Buy another strip mall every eighth note Get money Money ain't a motherfucking prob It's a sport I invented to win when I watch And own all the rights and the lights and the locks Even own all the ice in the Sprite you just dropped Get money Money or your motherfucking life Two ton angel carved outta ice Alligator sailboat, dollar sign eyes Fill a warehouse full of Van Goghs twice Get money Money or your motherfucking heart I could give it to my dog, he makes money when he barks Or put it in my fridge or in one of my parks that I bought So my robots could learn how to LARP and get money" -'Whales', Hail Mary Mallon
So glad you guys did soul drinkers. My friend gave me the 2nd book to read and though i had no clue what was going on, it and dawn of war got me into 40k.
I think that the refounded soul drinkers simply had cawl go shopping through the repositories on mars and grabbing a bit of everything. We know he had the gene seed of all 20 primarchs, and all the geneseed of every existing/existed chapter. If the soul drinkers repository wasn't destroyed (likely as they apparently keep traitor legions too) he could have simply accessed that one.
@@conan2096there is not a single shred of evidence of this. Anything regarding a possible answer for the 2nd or 11th legions is purposefully false as stated by ADB. Its a lore ban from GW, there is NO legitimate information in lore about the missing legions. Sorry bud, we do not know if they were put into ultramarines or where--there are not answers, and can never be unless GW rescinds their lore ban
@@andrejjelcic3675 im pretty sure the whole idea was you could have two homebrew legions and primarchs. but theres nothing wrong with hinting that shit happened and theres a good reason they are gone.l
Yeahhhh, Soul Drinkers! That's an omnibus I read a long time ago. I remember the Howling Griffins playing a part, having a big rivalry with the Renegade chapter for a while, I feel like they deserved a quick mention.
Hi guys, long time fan of the channel I just wanted to recomend a few episodes that i feel could be cool to do in the Spirit of going back to the basics as you did with warp travel: -Chaplains -Read both the burning of próspero and the Next book, that show the same events from the space wolves perspective -malcador
They remind me a lot of the Mortifactors in so many ways! This revelation at the end could sorta imply that the Mortifactors are also of Lost Primarch Geneseed too, likely the same one. -They rely a lot on consuming flesh. -They are far different culturally from Ultramarines. -They have the same sort of spiritual honor in combat tradition. -They have also killed an inquisitor who's investigated them. - Yet they are super loyal to the Emperor.
Holy shit, I've been trying to remember this Chapter's name for literal years. Heard their story once and forgot their name. No amount of googling was helping either! Thank you!!!❤🎉
42:01 Bricky is off by about 14 years. The Rogue Trader rulebook makes no mention of genetic or surgical augmentation regarding space marines. However, the concept of geneseed was introduced soon after, in a White Dwarf article. The Realm of Chaos books (1990) introduced the primarchs as progenitors, and by the time 2nd edition came around (1993), space marines were solidified as the superhuman child soldiers we know and love today.
As for the lost legion theory, it would make sense to me that their memory of dorn using the spear is actually a memory of their true primarch using it and when their memories were erased/changed that it was either switched to dorn on purpose or that memory persisted and got mixed with the altered parts of their memories.
You need Leutin on every fortnight or month. Having him less strict on himself 'letting his hair down' in a sense as a podcast is great. You can tap into so much that he has self edited out of his videos. He is the Black Library.
Yeah, i think lysander can use the spear because he, like the Soul Drinkers, have the geneseed of the second/eleventh. Whether it was chimeric, or if the IF, because of the war of the beast, have reintegrated the second/eleventh genes into their chapter having taken on marines from all their successors (which, if they specifically split the second/eleventh genes into their own chapters during the second founding to keep the IF "pure" sons of Dorn, means some of the modern IF also have these genes) doesnt really matter. It fills all the plot holes in the reasons how "only imperial fists can use it" "only soul drinkers can use it", yet lysandor could use it.
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
Magic pain glove, tell me what the fuck is wrong with my children
Autism
"they have a weird pain kink Dorn, can't imagine how they got it"
which is hilarious since they are not dorn's sons when their genseed is examined. So part of the imperial fists after the war of the beast is made of non dorn sons since they gave a part of the chapter to reform the fists.
@@BrunoWolfMetal "your services are no longer required"
Excoriators: "Man, our Black Templar and Soul Drinkers brothers are just WIERD!!" (Goes back to flogging self.)
"Dorn found this spear and fixed it up and gave it to them."
...he wouldn't have happened to have found it off the body of the individual who was Alpharius, who was actually Omegon, who was pretending to be Alpharius, would he...?
also Kirioth gets really down in the weeds pointing out how confusing who can or cannot activate the Soul Spear without ever considering "what if they were just assuming only certain people can activate it and that's actually not a thing?" He doesn't bring up a counter example of someone not being able to activate it to establish the rule, just people saying only certain people can.
@@burnin8able when the blood angel told them they wernt dorns, sarpedon was heartbroken. he shouted out that they had taken everything and now they were taking away dorn too. a son of dorn WAS needed however, to open the portal and release the giant daemon in the sun the phalanx was orbiting.
It isn’t the pale spear, that was actually 100% found in a recent book
Found on the former planet called Pluto during the Horus Heresy. (Pluto now being a dwarf planet because we can't have nice things.😢)
@@Flummoxed_Buffoon87 i would like to think the emperors first act in power was to declare pluto a planet
Fun fact, that Nurgle Daemon Prince the Soul Drinkers killed in that first book wasn't some big plague monster, it was a virus living in a bunch of corpses that had a single cursed bolter between them
"And we had to share the rock!"
@@elipticarc8992 "Buck up battle brother! You're one very lucky Marine!"
also the admech MADE the second lol
Love The random Johnson quote
@@Zivon96what about those soul drinkers?
The end of the sixth Soul Drinker book is completely insane, I'm glad more people get to know about that.
yeah like good lord they went all in
The whole series is such a wild arc. It’s Ben counter and it’s old but it’s still pretty damn cool for its time.
Reminder for those of us who haven't read them in twenty years?
My theory as to why Lysander can operate the soulspear has to do with the War of the Beast.
At the end of the War of the Beast, the Imperial Fists had been destroyed. Each of their successor chapters donated a portion of their geneseed to rebuild the Fists, and one of those chapters was the Soul Drinkers. Therefore Lysander could have at least alittle Soul Drinker geneseed in him, which could allow him to operate the soulspear.
At least, in theory
fulgrim "do you have a little soul drinker in you?...would you like to?"
I was going to comment the same thing but I'm glad I checked if someone beat me to it. They also stated in First Heretic (and I think other places?) that some of the lost legions ended divided into the Imperial Fists. So Soul Drinkers and Lysander are from the 2nd or 11th legion? Maybe?
Edit: Should have kept listening, Kirioth had it.
or how about this: the "only a son of dorn can activate the soul spear" bit was just never true to begin with.
@@burnin8able another one of daenyathos's lies. they didnt seem to get that when they pointed out the inconsistencies between the two eras, but the whole chaplaincy was taken over and dedicated to his grooming the whole chapter into going renegade. no one remembered the truth anymore because he had rewritten it, and their bible.
@@burnin8able The theory I stated is operating under the assumption that the "Only sons of Dorn" part is false but the "Only Soul Drinkers" part is not
Sarpedon: *turns into a spider*
Soul Drinkers: HE IS THE MESSIAH!
To be fair it was only half of them. The other half saw him as warp tainted.
@@Lazrael32 nerd
@@Lancersilva I'm not a nerd!!!! Nerds are smart.
@@Lazrael32 🤣😂
Spiderman, spiderman. Does whatever a Spider can...
By far the best part of this one was when Kirioth's "And this was all according to the plan."
Just the simultaneous "what." of pure bafflement from Bricky and DK that it prompted. Perfection.
Guilliman after learning of the Flesh Terrors, Black Templars, Space Sharks, Marines Malevolent, Sons of the Phoenix, Soul Drinkers, Badab, Vraks, the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, and state of the Imperium: I must say that everyone I have witnessed has been *cringe.”*
It was not based, Father. It was *cringe!*
Dammit Rogal, now Guilliman is doing it
It was not kek, it was CRINGE FATHER!
“Corgis are funny. They have small legs” - Dorn
@@MrPanzer234 "Spiders are cute, they construct efficient webs and have tiny paws." ~ Dorn
Ah yes, the Soul Drinkers, also known as "I may have spider legs, but I'm totally still loyalist, swearsies!!"
At this point, can the Imperium even argue anymore? Take what you can get.
They were loyalist until the end
Well, in a way, even during their most chaosie of times, they were closer to the vision Jimmy Space initially had for the imperium. If he also is reborn or brought back in the future, the Sould Drinkers are probably among the few chapters he'd be approving of
The Soul Drinkers could have amputated mutated parts and have their techmarines and apothecaries fabricate bionic prosthetics.
@sixgunsymphony7408 they kinda did. Sarpedon lost one of his spider legs in battle and had it fixed with a prosthetic. You have to remember though, the original soul drinkers legit thought the mutations were a gift from big E, and even after learning that it was chaos curroption, they still thought that these were gifts from the emperor. I agree with the comment before, that out of almost all the chapters, Big E would probably be cool with the soul drinkers, because they realize that the imperium is bloated and run by people seeking their own gain. They're altercation with the adeptus mechanicus proved that to them.
The Sons of the Phoenix aren’t Emperor’s Children! They are… uh… actually from… the Ruler’s Kids! You haven’t heard of them, they are very different.
I like the idea that The Sons of The Pheonix are actually Imperial Fist successors and they were made to be so flagrantly suspicious that they would draw everyone's attention. Everyone would investigate them, go "Oh, Cawl is telling the truth and not doing heretical things," and ignore the hundreds of other space marine chapters of questionable heritage that Cawl was releasing into the woodworks.
Wait I thought they're from Offsprings of the Monarch
@@kiddo6393you’re thinking of The Boss’s Brats
I'm pretty sure they were from the President's Progeny.
DO WAR OF THE BEAST EMPEROR DAMMIT, IT'S ORK-TOBER FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD PLEASE!!!!
no
@@Adeptusridiculous 😂😂😂
@@Adeptusridiculous Understandable, have a good month
Damn
Sounds like Shy's started spelling Orks with a c.
I shall now start my grand campaign to get these gentlemen to read Gotrek and Felix by asking every week. Wish me luck fantasy legends
Seconded, good luck Brother
This excess pleases the Dark Prince.
Remember the more you beg the more days they add to the counter...
I'm going to see Kirioth's quote and raise you a:
When all around is darkness
When beset by fear and doubt
Run in little circles
Wave your arms and shout
The Soul Drinkers books are _so_ silly which is why they are some of my favourite 40k books. I mean the whole thing is predicated on Sarpedon, a member of the Librarius, not knowing _any_ of the titles Tzeentch goes by, then getting religion and _then_ huffing copium hard enough to believe that spontaneous spider legs are a gift from the Emperor. Also dude with chainswords for hands.
That's a quote from a Cain book, isn't it?
Nice.
That’s a quote from Freefall, isn’t it? Nice!
* Bricky tries to avoid Jojo Diamond is Unbreakable Reference *
* Says "I refuse". *
Dread it, run from it, the JoJo reference arrives all the same
was looking for this comment, not disappointed, thank you :D
and said it in the Jojoiest way
He needs to get out of the weeb closet.
@@levesteMnah, let him stay there. It’s warm and cozy once you get used to it, and for someone who seemed reluctant to enter it, Bricky doesn’t seem to mind too much
*Look Timmy*
The Emperor has blessed your birthday party with a Spiderman show!
*>children begin screaming*
An Interrogator dueling a Space Marine might sound crazy but you also have to consider that physical superiority can only take you so far ahead. An interrogator is an exceptional person who will usually have incredibly powerful augmentations and depending on the inquisitor, might even be decked out in power armor.
They represented a Lord Inquisitor, a powerful member of the most powerful organization in the Imperium. The idea that he could duel a space marine isn't actually that unbelievable even in more recent writing.
I found that whole section of discussion rather odd. The whole movie marine thing was established as a meme by 2002 even if the Gaunt's Ghosts did kill one, and any marine can always be taken down by sheer weight of fire so even in that early rather janky effort of a novel it's totally not out of order, hell I think that was around White Dwarf did their for fun 'lore accurate' marine rules. Marines haven't been regular guys in nice armour since like 2nd, and that came out in... oof '93. I read it as a properly young 'un back then but even so. Hell, possibly even before that if I remember right as they got their first stat upgrades to make them more impressive and super-human compared to the original Rogue Trader versions in a compendium before 2nd even came out.
Space Marines are not just physically stronger. They're faster, have better reaction times, hav a tons of special abilities like being able to spit acid. A single astartes is a raid boss for regular humane, 1v1 the human is gonna lose
Some random guard guy (that's a disservice, I think it was colonel Vauban) duels honsou in storm of iron
The strength of space marines varies all the time, it's part of the 40k charm
Cain also duels a Khornate Berserker briefly. Space Marines are inhumanly fast and strong but really exceptional human fighters can give them some trouble, even if they usually don't win without some outside stuff.
A young Eisenhorn beheaded a marine of the Emperor's Children by simply distracting him for a split second.
Hearing about that fight between Sarpedon & Lysandre makes me thing of that one Lythero UMVC3 clip where a Pheonix Wright player just WALKS unharmed through a mega Hadouken after the opposing player says "I MUST DO THIS!"
Only topped by the fact he calls him a bitch too
So the Pale Spear fell into Loyalist hands after Dorn killed Alpharius at the Battle of Pluto and importantly _no one knows what Dorn did with it or where it went._ So the idea that the Pale Spear = the Soul Spear is plausible on that front, but they are described differently so I do think they are different weapons.
Also, big ups to the rando Interrogator who looked at Sarpedon and said "Yeah I'd win"
In Renegades: Harrowmaster Alpha Legion gets the Pale Spear.
@@444ronald Ah but you see, that was clearly Omegon's Spear: _The Off-White Spear_
@@chronovac THE EGGSHELL SPEAR
@@chronovac The tasteful thickness of the spear's shaft.
They are actually unsure if it's actually *the* pale spear, but it's enough as a symbol and he rolls with it. @@444ronald
I was literally just reading about these poor sods a couple of days ago after a friend mentioned liking their colors. That guy is a Emperors Children simpleton, so makes sense. Scoffs in Imperial Knight royalty
The fool belittling the fool 🤣
@@xanmontes8715 In the grimdark future of the 41st millinium, there are only fools.
*admech deploys artillery platform*
Soul drinkers: “NOW YOU FUCKED UP you have fucked up now”
they didnt even do anything wrong. thats the worst part of all of it. the ad mech roll up on them, point their guns at them and steal their most prized relic, then have the audacity to launch and orbital cannon at them when they ask for it back. and when they simply disable the ships and leave, the inquisition showsd up and says "surrender to be tortured to death and shamed or be tortured to death and shamed".
the architect really didnt have to do much at that point.
Soul drinkers seeing the admech deploying the artillery: “whoa where are you going mechie!? What are you doing you fat bucket of bolts!”
We will have to see if they talk about this theory: that these guys were actually 2ed or 11th Legions. As Malcador outright stated the lost legions had their memories wiped before being absorbed into other legions. Due to Guiliman and Dorn being the ones to advocate for this, it is implied the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists got the majority of the lost legion remnants.
Thus is would sure as heck explain why you have these 2ed Founding successors with a unique geneflaw who were 100% certain they were Fists successors until someone checked their geneseed
The imperial fists also cleared some loyalist’s from traitor legions to serve alongside them during the heresy. We don’t know what happened to them, they disappeared from the records after the heresy (James Workshop hasn’t decided what happened to them yet) they could have been a chapter founded under Dorns name to protect loyalists from persecution. That might also explain their deep veneration for Dorn.
Charcaradons are the second legion. They fought when the emperor was alive so an original legion and fulgrim says in a book that the 2nd primarch was his quiet brother which is a major charcaradons characteristic
@@stinker591 You think* It's important to add that part. You can't speak your opinion like fact
@@Ruggedtoaster that might actually explain some of the successor chapters that are supposedly from the Imperial Fists, i.e. Sons of the Phoenix
If the Soul Drinkers are sooo good at boarding tactics: why they dont have their own boarding patrol box? ..... Makes you think
1:21:32 well...no...because every space marine produces two geneseed, one to replace them and one to create a new one.
It's weird, you'd figure they would make a bigger point of that in the books but the only time (at least in recent memory) I've read it referenced was in the Kharn book. In any case, it makes more sense how Chapters maintain their numbers despite so many marines throwing themselves into situations where their remains can't be recovered.
Guilliman learning of the Soul Drinkers: *Ultra Facepalm* “Flesh Terrors, Black Templars, Space Sharks, Marines Malevolent, Sons of the Phoenix, now Soul Drinkers… By Father, WWHHYYY?”
Local Centurion: “That is because they are absolute lunatics.”
Guilliman: *shocked* “Who are you, Where did you come from and How Long have you been standing there?”
Dorn?
Imagine Guilliman to the Blood ravens
I heard that Dorn voice in my head for that line
You've got some weirdos of your own, Girlyman. Mortifactors anyone?
Do Flesh Terrors descend from Sanugiunis?
When you lose sight of the spider legged marine… EXTERMINATUS
It's the only way to be sure.
I remember the book with the trial of the Soul Drinkers was the first 40k book I read. There's a weird part of the trial in which some Astartes that I think were Blood Angels successors dedicated to recording and studying geneseed tell everybody: "Hey we looked at the SD's geneseed and, man it was fucked up so we couldn't find out much but we DEFINITELY know they're not Dorn's kids." And then during the Dreadnaught's whole plot, he says: "Oh yeah, I just told everybody we're Imperial Fists cause it was convenient." XD
I should really wait to say anything until I watch the whole thing because damn, they mentioned this not five minutes after I wrote this comment. XD
I would love the idea of a chaos war band that obsessed with having out of body exercises by eating their victims. Or alternatively a single chaos space Marine that's addicted to eating loyalist marines to "feel the light of the emperor"
I really like the idea of the soul drinkers being from the lost primarchs and the imperium LITERALLY retconing history to make them sons of dorn. It explains both why their battle tactics don't match with that of the imperial fists and why the soul spear is never mentioned in relation to dorn anywhere else. Because it's just a little rewriting of history change the name of the lost primarch who had the spear to dorn and bam there you go. And it also implies that the particular lost primarch was probably chaos corrupted because of the nature of the spear and how it works by directly using the power of the warp. Even though the imperium already does that in alot of other places too but still. I also really loved the constant inner conflict they had. With some of them staying loyal to the emperor but not the imperium vs being influenced by chaos and tzeench and having civil wars in their ranks and conspiring against each other. Their story is actually kind of a blast. I really dig the complexity in this case. Super fun episode overall I didn't feel that hour and a half fly by
Been a fan of these guys since I read their omnibus as a teen! Glad to see them get some shine!
I was also heart broken that I couldn’t make them in SM2. Get bent hawk lords
As silly as their logic can be I still love the Soul Drinkers. They actually are what got me to love Renegade Marine Chapters who still do good things.
the story of the iron knight defending them at the trail was solid work from them. they love the emperor, hate bureaucracy.
My favourite thing about this series was it allowed the Imperium to be the bad guy it deserves to be
Still waiting on the dedicated minotaurs episode. Keep making me wait, and i'll have to go bully some lamenters to keep myself entertained.
Ah, the heretics...
I should NOT have tried looking into the lost legions, my days are numbered
YEEEEEEEEEES! The first 40K series I ever got into!
I reread my copy of the Soul Drinkers Omnibus until the paper back fell off.
Who *didn't* want to make a spider legged Librarian in that gorgeous color scheme, the moment after reading about it??
Also, it's a Lord Inquisitor's Interrogator. That's a Mini-boss character in other books.
Definitely got me thinking of making a DND character that was part spider that did "The Hell" on people.
@@collecter343 can't believe they never mentioned that.
I love how every time AdRic mentions an obscure space marine chapter they’re all like: “How are they loyalist with this kind of Chapter name?”
And follows with:
Right, but also…
F L E S H T E A R E R S 😂
Wonder when Bricky or Kirioth will remember that the Marines Malevolent exist
Space Wolves eat their enemies to gain knowledge of the enemy plans, Nightlords eat their enemies because battlefield snack.
Blood angels eat their allies and enemies because the red thirst is one hell of a trip.
No one is the same
Imagine if, after they were all cracking jokes about how the Knights of Dorn "could be from anybody" - imagine if they were 100% an Alpha legion cell using a cover of being Imperial Fists successors to gather imperial war material, intel, and gene seed.
That would actually be pretty good
A Soul Drinker needs to eat a Tyranid.
I wanna know what happens.
Probably a nasty headache
They start skittering up the walls.
"Magic pain glove tell me what to do" is the start of Dune, I feel like we're onto something about what sticking your hand into things does to you
Kinda sad you glossed over the part where the soul drinkers fight the crimsons fists in the torture chamber of a imperial blackship and sarpadon uses his physic powers to bring back the ghosts of the tortured souls to attack them
Horus heresy barely covers the great crusade in its entirety, so it is plausible that Dorn did use the spear before giving it to the soul drinkers.
YES!!!!! FINALLY!!!! THE SOUL DRINKERS OMNIBUS WAS THE 1ST 40K BOOK I READ!!!!!
This is the Second successor chapter of the Imperial Fists that has been relentlessly fucked with by the greater imperium. When Dorn gets back he's gonna be fucking pissed.
2 things from 15:00 or so:
- these books were written in 2002, before a lot of the really fine-grained canon around HH, so while you can retrofit some of that on it wouldn't have been intended.
- the Fists have always been boarding specialists as well as defenders. They do run the Phalanx, after all.
I started building an army of Soul Drinkers after the second book came out. I was very amused that I had more models for my army than were still alive during the last two books.
The force from the latest book is a 2k force on tabletop.. I want to make it.
@thejestor9378 Traitor By Deed actually has a list of the 3rd company squads for the Indomitus refounding chapter
@@matthewgnepper3201 Yep, that’s what I was talking about. You can field that entire force at 2k.
1:21:57 in one of the Dark Imperium books, Cawl talks about how the traitor and lost geneseed he has makes for good Astartes with no flaws. The 2nd and 11th geneseed is not lost.
Even without that knowledge the gene seed could still have been saved from the gene seed tithes the soul drinkers had to do before they were renegades.
from the very first chapter you can tell they arent dorns boys. all sat there in the drop opod in resplendent gold and purple thinking about how amazing and pure they are, much better than all of their brothers, and their dad is literally the greatest of the primarchs...they had a pretty heavy fall off that podium they put themselves on. amazing book series.
1:10:16 nah, the phalanx is definitely a Necron vessel made of black stone… the fact they got even a single small portal opened on it is impressive in the first place…
These guys are my favorite loyalists - my watch fortress has a substantial amount of them in the leadership sing they didn't have a chapter to return to after the... disbanding... of the chapter
Their books were my intro into 40k! You guys rock covering these dudes!
I never get tired of listening to the count down timer.
The main thing I remember from these books is that the author kept saying that he could "send but not receive" psychic messages or something like that so many times that my buddy and I have been saying "he could send but not receive" for the past 20 years as a joke.
Bricky brings up a point that the power scaling in 40K has changed over time to widen the gap between normal humans and space marines bringing up the first Gaunt's Ghosts novel where Gaunt takes out an iron warrior in the first chapter, but I have an alternate explanation: Gaunt is simply built different. He also counter ambushed a world eaters berserker squad: no friendly casualties. was later ambushed by a black legion TERMINATOR SQUAD: took them all down with no friendly casualties. Guant is peak "nah, I'd win."
Gaunt is a great commander, yeah, but "Nah I'd win" is reckless, and Gaunt just ISN'T reckless. He's not Ciaphas Cain, whose reputation is built on (unearned ;) ) personal skill in combat, he's a very competent officer with clear reasons for the success of the operations he directs. He uses his men to their strengths as best he can, and while ambushing certainly is a major strength of theirs, there's no way they'd all survive a counter-ambush by TERMINATORS without some ridiculous power scaling happening since then.
@@vegladex they were ambushed by a terminator squad while running a 12 man guerilla warfare campaign on a chaos held world. not even the full regiment behind them. 12 guard troopers versus 4 terminators. flawless Guard victory.
@@burnin8able I haven't read this book, did they like have melta charges ...or like power swords or something with them???
@@Sara3346 in that first book where he fights the iron warrior they basically pin him down with suppressing fire and then Gaunt stabs him in the gut with his chainsword. it punches through the less armored part but totally jams up the teeth of the chainsword and gets stuck in there in the process so he has to leave it stuck there. all the times where he fights space marines later he has gotten his relic power sword by that point yeah.
Just a note the imperial fist foundings and it’s own genealogy are really messed up due to some stuff that happens in the war of the beast. So all the only so and so can stuff with the soul spear can be correct. Also the 2nd and 3rd founding stuff.
The war of the beast is weird butt fun
Yeah we are not even sure if they are son's of Dorn, seeing as their geneseed was shown to not have any genetic markers to Dorns seed. My money is honestly on them being from Horus' geneseed, due to their similarities to the Luna Wolves
Love the fact that you’re exploring successor chapters, would love to see the mantis warriors and the white Templars since they appeared in the tithes
One has to wonder wtf happened to Sarpedon and the gang after they dragged our heretical dreadnought man into the portal.
They got turned into pastrami for demon lunch
Soul Drinkers and the Blood Gorgons. Great books.
Quest for knowledge this, quest for knowledge that. Why don't you finish your quest of college?
Soul Drinker's original legion's gimmick might be all breachers
its fucking great when they find the necrons in the veiled regions, and theres just corpses hanging all over this noble estate, and then the corpses open up and flayed ones are hiding inside.
also he HAD to duel lysander by the soul drinkers logic. he couldnt just hand over his astartes without a fight, and he knew he wasnt going to win cause he was pretty much done. he ordered his men to stand down before it...especially luko who had been begging to die since gravenholm, before the second chapter war.
An interesting idea to explore would be to look at chapters which do not seem to match their supposed gene-seed, and try to use that to derive the characteristics of the II and XI legions, under the assumption that there are chapters using that material as well.
Finally!!! The soul drinkers. Guys have more novels than some mainline chapters but gw does nothing with them and they seem largely forgotten.
Would really love to have an episode on Red Corsairs
I love the dragging of Daenyathas into the warp, that is amazing
the spear might have been a relic from their original primarch that Dorn held onto and then passed onto his brothers sons
You guys should cover the Celestial Lions at some point soon. They’re like the Lamenters but not bad luck based and don’t look like Taxis.
And also if I'm not mistaken they are all dead
@@thekillercow586 There is a small remnant of them left. That's why they're not an extinct chapter.
I believe they're under the aegis of the Black Templars, their en route to Terra to send a "Strongly worded complaint" against the Inquisition.
They can try to pull some shit but I think Sigismund's boys will hand "ork snipers" and "Thats straight up an assassin what the hell we're in the middle of a war what the fuck!" a little better.
This was by far one of my favorite episodes. Lots of cool lore from a sect of marines that aren’t really talked about. I hope this trend keeps going for the other factions of the 40K universe
Soul Drinkers?!?! The chapter that got me into 40k? Super excited for this episode!
One good example for both terrible duels and whacky power levels in a Warhammer book is the time a freshly minted marine manages to win a duel against an archmagos dominus who is specialized in melee combat.
When the 2nd and 11th legions where killed the remaining astartes of the chapter where given the ultramarines and imperial fists there is a mention in a short story (no I don't remember I will look it up for those who want to read it) the ultramarines got the 2nd legion marine and the imperial fists got the 11th legion marines
Sigismund is definitely one of them and I'll die on this hill. Him and the ones like him.
At the end of this episode, the talk about the lost Primarchs made me realize. They are doing the Great Crusade series next, they kind of have to have the lost Primarchs during that series.
"Money is a motherfucking joke
Forty bald eagles sewn onto a coat
Zoo with the crib, mermaid in the moat
Buy another strip mall every eighth note
Get money
Money ain't a motherfucking prob
It's a sport I invented to win when I watch
And own all the rights and the lights and the locks
Even own all the ice in the Sprite you just dropped
Get money
Money or your motherfucking life
Two ton angel carved outta ice
Alligator sailboat, dollar sign eyes
Fill a warehouse full of Van Goghs twice
Get money
Money or your motherfucking heart
I could give it to my dog, he makes money when he barks
Or put it in my fridge or in one of my parks that I bought
So my robots could learn how to LARP and get money"
-'Whales', Hail Mary Mallon
So glad you guys did soul drinkers. My friend gave me the 2nd book to read and though i had no clue what was going on, it and dawn of war got me into 40k.
I think that the refounded soul drinkers simply had cawl go shopping through the repositories on mars and grabbing a bit of everything. We know he had the gene seed of all 20 primarchs, and all the geneseed of every existing/existed chapter. If the soul drinkers repository wasn't destroyed (likely as they apparently keep traitor legions too) he could have simply accessed that one.
This episode and the recent Post Primarch episode are by far my favorite 2 episodes out of the 30-40 I've watched.
So fun lol
Why do I feel like Rogal Dorn is adopting the 2nd and 11ths chapter leftovers?
a LOt of them went into guillimans boys, which is why he had a fuckhuge chapter even going into the crusade.
@@conan2096there is not a single shred of evidence of this. Anything regarding a possible answer for the 2nd or 11th legions is purposefully false as stated by ADB. Its a lore ban from GW, there is NO legitimate information in lore about the missing legions. Sorry bud, we do not know if they were put into ultramarines or where--there are not answers, and can never be unless GW rescinds their lore ban
@@KrazzeeKane im pretty sure i saw it written somewhere that a lot of them were mindwiped and sent to different legions
Yeah GW seeded the hell out of this to maybe use them again.
@@andrejjelcic3675 im pretty sure the whole idea was you could have two homebrew legions and primarchs. but theres nothing wrong with hinting that shit happened and theres a good reason they are gone.l
Yeahhhh, Soul Drinkers! That's an omnibus I read a long time ago. I remember the Howling Griffins playing a part, having a big rivalry with the Renegade chapter for a while, I feel like they deserved a quick mention.
Imagine a Soul Drinker eating a Krieger. Instant hyper depression.
Cold & Fast, Soul Drinkers!
Hi guys, long time fan of the channel
I just wanted to recomend a few episodes that i feel could be cool to do in the Spirit of going back to the basics as you did with warp travel:
-Chaplains
-Read both the burning of próspero and the Next book, that show the same events from the space wolves perspective
-malcador
They remind me a lot of the Mortifactors in so many ways!
This revelation at the end could sorta imply that the Mortifactors are also of Lost Primarch Geneseed too, likely the same one.
-They rely a lot on consuming flesh.
-They are far different culturally from Ultramarines.
-They have the same sort of spiritual honor in combat tradition.
-They have also killed an inquisitor who's investigated them.
- Yet they are super loyal to the Emperor.
Nice, Tzench, renegade marines, lost primarch, unusual imperial rehabilitation. Hitting a lot of super interesting topics.
Holy shit, I've been trying to remember this Chapter's name for literal years. Heard their story once and forgot their name. No amount of googling was helping either! Thank you!!!❤🎉
I just realized that Titus could be a marine from one of the lost primearchs as well
Soul Drinkers omnibus was the first W40k book I ever read. Never expected to see an episode on them
I really liked this episode, good job Kirioth for enduring an entire omnibus.
The Soul Drinkers book was the first Warhammer novel I ever read.
1:14:00 these guys radiate Big Rylanor Energy. Definitely Emperors Children successors.
Finally, i was expecting a long time to get more info on the "Souldrinkers".
42:01 Bricky is off by about 14 years. The Rogue Trader rulebook makes no mention of genetic or surgical augmentation regarding space marines. However, the concept of geneseed was introduced soon after, in a White Dwarf article. The Realm of Chaos books (1990) introduced the primarchs as progenitors, and by the time 2nd edition came around (1993), space marines were solidified as the superhuman child soldiers we know and love today.
Exorcist would be an awesome chapter to do an episode on
As for the lost legion theory, it would make sense to me that their memory of dorn using the spear is actually a memory of their true primarch using it and when their memories were erased/changed that it was either switched to dorn on purpose or that memory persisted and got mixed with the altered parts of their memories.
20:40 I binged the first Word Bearers book and retained about 10%. Relisting to it was like long dormant memories from a past life
Can't wait to get Baals deep in the Horus Herussy
The episode I always wanted and never thought I'd see!
I think the soul drinkers are from one of the Lost legions.
I think they're actually Blood Angels Successors, but you're probably right
@@adambartholomew6575 Actually, there is a chapter called the blood drinkers.
A Sarpedon Poster would be pretty neat
You need Leutin on every fortnight or month. Having him less strict on himself 'letting his hair down' in a sense as a podcast is great. You can tap into so much that he has self edited out of his videos. He is the Black Library.
Yeah, i think lysander can use the spear because he, like the Soul Drinkers, have the geneseed of the second/eleventh. Whether it was chimeric, or if the IF, because of the war of the beast, have reintegrated the second/eleventh genes into their chapter having taken on marines from all their successors (which, if they specifically split the second/eleventh genes into their own chapters during the second founding to keep the IF "pure" sons of Dorn, means some of the modern IF also have these genes) doesnt really matter. It fills all the plot holes in the reasons how "only imperial fists can use it" "only soul drinkers can use it", yet lysandor could use it.
ad mech: teleports in, takes shit, leaves, doesn't explain further