This is one of those mechs that is middling at best for regular tabletop play, but offers a few cool opportunities for a narrative scenario. For instance, trying to recreate the escape from the Citadel mission in Crescent Hawks Inception! I am so hyped for my Kickstarter stuff to ship!
Now maybe it's because Crescent Hawks Inception was my first Battletech but I have a soft spot for the Chameleon. Use it like a Phoenix Hawk and it won't let you down. My upgrade would be to try to fit an ERLL, and 2x MPLs on it, hopefully with enough space for a SPL to preserve some anti- infantry capability. Preferably avoiding Endo-Steel so it's not a full factory refit.
Sweet Battlytics, but... ugh... not my favourite mech. Sadly, with those weapons, that amount of armor, and that movement profile, even to get to a less aweful Light Engine, you'll need Emdosteel, Ferro AND something wonky like a XL Gyro, or maybe la Small Cockbit...
People underestimate this one for some reason, even though it's a serviceable flanker. Myself, I always had a soft spot for this 'Mech, mostly because of Crescent Hawk's Inception and the fact my table was cool about the Chameleon lore. At our games you were allowed to play any mini you wanted without telling anyone it was a Chameleon, with the caveat that the moment it did something that the model wasn't able to do ("Hey wait a sec, why is that Zeus doing 90 kph?"), you were busted for having a Chameleon and had to switch it in for the actual correct mini.
In our campaign we have reached minor house state and produce mechs with 300 engines. We do one that had a snub and 2 MLs. It’s designed to be run by melee pilots. It’s a bastard to fight because it’s a laser zombie, fully armored, jumps and weapons in torso. It can take punishment and dish it out once you get up close
The vulnerability of XL engines is greatly overstated. You wouldn't be able to get the 3 LL/ER LL payload with Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous and have near the armor or movement of this mech. This version of the Chameleon is a harrasser and scout hunter. You get a 50 tonner that moves 6/9/6, maximum armor, decent firepower, and it's easy enough to do a 2/3 or 3/1 large laser firing routine to get the best bang for your buck. Hence why the BV is so high.
The problem with this variant is that it does so little with the XL engine. You are absolutely right that ES and FF will not get you the ~9 tonnes the XL does. And I also agree that XL-induced vulnerability can easily be overstated. But what is this design doing with that tonnage? It mounts a 3rd large laser that it can barely use, even if piloted by a redliner. If double heat sinks were not going to be part of the re-design, don't add more high heat weapons that offer nothing while reducing your survivability. Good XL designs use the XL to multiply their capabilities by leaping up to speeds they could not imagine with a standard engine, or mounting a radically more effective weapons array, or packing a pile of extra armour on, etc. I think about how the Centurion and Enforcer vastly improved in their 3050 updates by becoming much faster and mobile. I just do not see where this mech is adding new capability in exchange for the liability.
Yeah, I agree with the XL swap and armor placement. Considering the timeline of that model, shoot for at least a light XL, and add endo for your weight savings. That puts you in less than a ton off that model’s target. From there, swap all the lasers for two Snubbys, and you can play with the last two tons, either for some spike damage for 2 meds, or pull a heat sink and get an inner sphere targeting computer. Or do a similar riff from the CLN-7VQ variant weaponry, and have a heavy PPC, plus either some med lasers or SRM 4s as backup.
An odd choice of mech, not the mech I would take into any fight, but I suppose if I were playing some kind of mercenary or pirate force???? Maybe? And even then a strong maybe. Hard pass on this mech, or at least this variant.
It was designed as a training mech. Armor on back and legs maxed out to reduce damage to a valuable machine being put in the hands of trainees. The mech was not designed for combat. That is why the original had a LL ML SL and MG. Differing ranges and weapon types. Later modifications to try and make it more combat worthy.
Chameleons prinarily eat insects. This, or any chameleon variant woukd do well to hunt smaller light mechs. It can pace them, hit them at range, and 8 damage on a Stinger is nothing they can shrug off. It should trade one of the LL's for 4 or 5 ML's. 3 big guns you cant use is no good. 6 guns, 2 big 4 med is the sweet spot.
The xl hatred is real. You get a nice BV discount to balance it out somewhat, so only in the most tanky/slow front line units does the standard fully outperform. I actually think battletech classic plays best with IS newtech, a sweet spot between clan and introtech.
Interesting - I think the opposite: bigger slower more heavily armored mechs can offset the risk of an XL better, and pack on bigger, meaner weapons. They have so much armor, getting thru it takes effort (and is statistically less likely to have more consecutive hits to the same spot)… so less chance of XL death (TACs can happen to anyone and are low %). Interesting convo. Sure you can make a light or mediums super zippy, but they are still going to be even more fragile with that XL. My 2 cents.
This is a mech I am much more familiar with from the fanfic novel Wild Rose than I am from tabletop. Looking through the comments I am shocked by the number of folks that like or love this mech which is interesting to see. I was curious as to the selection of this training mech, but even as a fan service it was a good call.
Thanks 😅 and appreciate the comment! You would be surprised at what you may find in here in ye olde comments section - some days I am pleasantly surprised haha
The chameleon is one of those ok mechs that does a job if used right but wont be flashy or win the fight for you alone...cheers for the decent analysis :-)
I thought this thing had single heatsinks ... I was wrong. What is important and I believe is not part of the simulation is that this mech is a killer from the rear and it has the jump jets to get there.
I built a series of benchmarks and simulations that are collectively called “Battlytics” … the ‘mechs relevant stats are entered into the engine and it crunches away!
This one has an XL engine. Got me thinking about how XL engines interact with side torso death and ammo. In a lot of IS intro tech machines- there are ammo in the side torsos. And nothing else. A crit there just kills the mech similar to XL engine death. I wonder if in some of these mechs- like the trebuchet- does the inclusion of the XL actually increase durability because it “pads out” the mech against ammo death for longer?
Great thought - I would think it depends on what else is in there. Like is it just 3 engine + ammo … or is it packed with other “non-volatile” slots like heat sinks, jump jets, etc.
I read somewhere that the whole "naked ammo" syndrome in many early mechs is actually an artefact of a rule change from 1st into 2nd edition. Supposedly, in 1st edition there were no engine heat sinks and they were all allocated like normal. So those ammo bins were actually not naked when designed. I do nto know if this is true, but it fits with a lot of the early fiction where mechs always seemed to have heat sinks getting hit on every internal hit.
Drop the ER and you can probably wring more damage out, you can run and fire without hitting +5. And how much does the XL really matter on most mechs in practice, especially under forced withdrawal rules?
An IS XL engine is a massive downgrade over standard for most mechs. You can think of it as if the XL engine reduces the overall ability of a mech to sustain damage by slightly more than half.
@@samuelbaldwin2184 On paper. But in practice you are in forced withdrawal and have probably lost a good chunk of your weapons if forced withdrawal isn't in use. Something like a classic Griffin is 50/50 if it has all it's weapons or none of them while a Crusader would lose slightly under half it's weapons for example.
@@135forte I think the forced withdraw rules were designed with clan engines in mind. It doesn't make sense for a IS XL engine equipped mech to only withdraw after dying. As far as losing weapons from losing side torsos ur right it does make the calculation a bit more mech dependant on when its worth it vs not. But XL engines also lose a lot of damage from engine criticals that a standard engine wouldn't get. Plus if you have all your weapons on one side you can use the other side of your mech as a shield, keeping that weapon firing even after sustaining massive damage. Like the centurion.
@@samuelbaldwin2184 My understanding is that forced withdrawal goes back to the rp roots of games BT and Warhammer have. However BT has codified 'critical damage' to a point where it is an enforceable rule that is especially common in IntroTech games for both flavor and to speed up game play. An IS XL still dies under it, but what I am saying is how much is that mech actually doing without that side torso. The tournament rules I have found use forced withdrawal and don't allow you to hold objectives while withdrawing, so even gaming the RAW by moving 1 hex back doesn't do much. It has been my experience that most mechs benefit more from the weight savings of an XL over the critical locations it costs, and trying to use a side as a shield on the table top is very tricky unless I have horribly misread the pictures in Total War, and not terribly reliable at that. And, again, under forced withdrawal rules, you lose a side torso and you have to start failing back.
XL engines are as useful as what is done with the extra tonnage. For example Good use of an XL Marauder 5D. 2 ER PPCs, 1 Large Pulse Laser, 2 Medium Laser, Streak 2, jump jets, 14 tons of armor, 16 DHS, CASE. This is a solid all rounder Marauder that can face most opponents in its weight class. Poor example Bombadier 12D. 325 XL, two LRM-20s with one ton of ammo each, AMS with one ton of amm0. SRM 4, one ton of ammo. 12.5 tons of armor. You have a fast Archer that has no endurance and less ability to defend itself.
This is one of those mechs that is middling at best for regular tabletop play, but offers a few cool opportunities for a narrative scenario. For instance, trying to recreate the escape from the Citadel mission in Crescent Hawks Inception!
I am so hyped for my Kickstarter stuff to ship!
Now maybe it's because Crescent Hawks Inception was my first Battletech but I have a soft spot for the Chameleon. Use it like a Phoenix Hawk and it won't let you down. My upgrade would be to try to fit an ERLL, and 2x MPLs on it, hopefully with enough space for a SPL to preserve some anti- infantry capability. Preferably avoiding Endo-Steel so it's not a full factory refit.
Fantastic game!!
Looking forward to a modern plastic mini for this Mech!
Sweet Battlytics, but... ugh... not my favourite mech.
Sadly, with those weapons, that amount of armor, and that movement profile, even to get to a less aweful Light Engine, you'll need Emdosteel, Ferro AND something wonky like a XL Gyro, or maybe la Small Cockbit...
People underestimate this one for some reason, even though it's a serviceable flanker. Myself, I always had a soft spot for this 'Mech, mostly because of Crescent Hawk's Inception and the fact my table was cool about the Chameleon lore.
At our games you were allowed to play any mini you wanted without telling anyone it was a Chameleon, with the caveat that the moment it did something that the model wasn't able to do ("Hey wait a sec, why is that Zeus doing 90 kph?"), you were busted for having a Chameleon and had to switch it in for the actual correct mini.
In our campaign we have reached minor house state and produce mechs with 300 engines. We do one that had a snub and 2 MLs. It’s designed to be run by melee pilots. It’s a bastard to fight because it’s a laser zombie, fully armored, jumps and weapons in torso. It can take punishment and dish it out once you get up close
The vulnerability of XL engines is greatly overstated. You wouldn't be able to get the 3 LL/ER LL payload with Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous and have near the armor or movement of this mech. This version of the Chameleon is a harrasser and scout hunter. You get a 50 tonner that moves 6/9/6, maximum armor, decent firepower, and it's easy enough to do a 2/3 or 3/1 large laser firing routine to get the best bang for your buck. Hence why the BV is so high.
Oh idk about the vulnerability being overstated… IS mechs lose a side torso and they’re toasted!
I use it as a harasser. It’s effective as long as it’s not swinging for the fences against the big boys.
The problem with this variant is that it does so little with the XL engine.
You are absolutely right that ES and FF will not get you the ~9 tonnes the XL does. And I also agree that XL-induced vulnerability can easily be overstated. But what is this design doing with that tonnage? It mounts a 3rd large laser that it can barely use, even if piloted by a redliner. If double heat sinks were not going to be part of the re-design, don't add more high heat weapons that offer nothing while reducing your survivability.
Good XL designs use the XL to multiply their capabilities by leaping up to speeds they could not imagine with a standard engine, or mounting a radically more effective weapons array, or packing a pile of extra armour on, etc. I think about how the Centurion and Enforcer vastly improved in their 3050 updates by becoming much faster and mobile. I just do not see where this mech is adding new capability in exchange for the liability.
@matthewfullmer3035 Great comment & analysis!! It sometimes feels like these ‘mechs were designed by the C-team engineers 😂
Great video! Looking forward to getting this mech. Looking forward to more videos.
This is the mech I learned to play classic with.
Yeah, I agree with the XL swap and armor placement. Considering the timeline of that model, shoot for at least a light XL, and add endo for your weight savings. That puts you in less than a ton off that model’s target. From there, swap all the lasers for two Snubbys, and you can play with the last two tons, either for some spike damage for 2 meds, or pull a heat sink and get an inner sphere targeting computer.
Or do a similar riff from the CLN-7VQ variant weaponry, and have a heavy PPC, plus either some med lasers or SRM 4s as backup.
A++
An odd choice of mech, not the mech I would take into any fight, but I suppose if I were playing some kind of mercenary or pirate force???? Maybe? And even then a strong maybe. Hard pass on this mech, or at least this variant.
Gotra review the weird ones. Sometimes they surprise you.
It was designed as a training mech. Armor on back and legs maxed out to reduce damage to a valuable machine being put in the hands of trainees. The mech was not designed for combat. That is why the original had a LL ML SL and MG. Differing ranges and weapon types. Later modifications to try and make it more combat worthy.
Right - this is one of those later ones that definitely “tried” haha - it has potential, just a weird mix of big lasers.
Missed the 8V and 9V much better , the 8 for lethality and the 9 for survivability
Chameleons prinarily eat insects. This, or any chameleon variant woukd do well to hunt smaller light mechs. It can pace them, hit them at range, and 8 damage on a Stinger is nothing they can shrug off.
It should trade one of the LL's for 4 or 5 ML's. 3 big guns you cant use is no good. 6 guns, 2 big 4 med is the sweet spot.
As always Aaron, excellent content. Thank you for all the time and effort.
Thank you for watching!
I’ve regularly done merc fights against training lances over the years. I need like 8 of them.
All I see here is a Budget Nightsky, hard to justify something like this when there are far better options
If you could get away in one of these at the start of Cresent Hawks you where off to the races
Honestly, for an energy running Mac I’ve never seen a better argument for snubnose PPCS And a couple of backup weapons
Good thought - I could get behind it!!
The xl hatred is real. You get a nice BV discount to balance it out somewhat, so only in the most tanky/slow front line units does the standard fully outperform. I actually think battletech classic plays best with IS newtech, a sweet spot between clan and introtech.
Interesting - I think the opposite: bigger slower more heavily armored mechs can offset the risk of an XL better, and pack on bigger, meaner weapons. They have so much armor, getting thru it takes effort (and is statistically less likely to have more consecutive hits to the same spot)… so less chance of XL death (TACs can happen to anyone and are low %).
Interesting convo.
Sure you can make a light or mediums super zippy, but they are still going to be even more fragile with that XL.
My 2 cents.
This is a mech I am much more familiar with from the fanfic novel Wild Rose than I am from tabletop.
Looking through the comments I am shocked by the number of folks that like or love this mech which is interesting to see. I was curious as to the selection of this training mech, but even as a fan service it was a good call.
Thanks 😅 and appreciate the comment! You would be surprised at what you may find in here in ye olde comments section - some days I am pleasantly surprised haha
The chameleon is one of those ok mechs that does a job if used right but wont be flashy or win the fight for you alone...cheers for the decent analysis :-)
Haha thanks for watching!!
I thought this thing had single heatsinks ... I was wrong. What is important and I believe is not part of the simulation is that this mech is a killer from the rear and it has the jump jets to get there.
Ok, ok I like where you are going here!
Oof, love the chameleon but this variant is rough.
LOL like who comes up with stuff haha
I like the chameleon design but some variant are hot trash.
Exhibit A lol
How do you guys get your performance metrics?
I built a series of benchmarks and simulations that are collectively called “Battlytics” … the ‘mechs relevant stats are entered into the engine and it crunches away!
In universe, I am delighted this mech exists. As a force on the Wednesday night tabletop...this variant is extremely ho-hum.
This one has an XL engine. Got me thinking about how XL engines interact with side torso death and ammo. In a lot of IS intro tech machines- there are ammo in the side torsos. And nothing else. A crit there just kills the mech similar to XL engine death. I wonder if in some of these mechs- like the trebuchet- does the inclusion of the XL actually increase durability because it “pads out” the mech against ammo death for longer?
Great thought - I would think it depends on what else is in there. Like is it just 3 engine + ammo … or is it packed with other “non-volatile” slots like heat sinks, jump jets, etc.
I read somewhere that the whole "naked ammo" syndrome in many early mechs is actually an artefact of a rule change from 1st into 2nd edition. Supposedly, in 1st edition there were no engine heat sinks and they were all allocated like normal. So those ammo bins were actually not naked when designed. I do nto know if this is true, but it fits with a lot of the early fiction where mechs always seemed to have heat sinks getting hit on every internal hit.
@matthewfullmer3035 !!!!! This is intriguing.
Yeah, I feel like the base mech would have maybe done better.
It is also the variant I am more interested in anyways.
The XL weight savings are just too good to ignore. FF and ES don't net enough savings.
I think about “damage over time” and playing the odds - so I am a bigger fan of survivability. But that is me!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I get that, and even agree on an intellectual level... But clan monkey brain want more gun.
But you need to do something with the XL savings for it to be worth considering. This variant does nothing to justify the downside.
@@matthewfullmer3035 Sure, sure, no argument there. I'm just speaking of XL engines in general.
Like a jumping Flashman
Drop the ER and you can probably wring more damage out, you can run and fire without hitting +5.
And how much does the XL really matter on most mechs in practice, especially under forced withdrawal rules?
An IS XL engine is a massive downgrade over standard for most mechs. You can think of it as if the XL engine reduces the overall ability of a mech to sustain damage by slightly more than half.
@@samuelbaldwin2184 On paper. But in practice you are in forced withdrawal and have probably lost a good chunk of your weapons if forced withdrawal isn't in use. Something like a classic Griffin is 50/50 if it has all it's weapons or none of them while a Crusader would lose slightly under half it's weapons for example.
@@135forte I think the forced withdraw rules were designed with clan engines in mind. It doesn't make sense for a IS XL engine equipped mech to only withdraw after dying.
As far as losing weapons from losing side torsos ur right it does make the calculation a bit more mech dependant on when its worth it vs not. But XL engines also lose a lot of damage from engine criticals that a standard engine wouldn't get. Plus if you have all your weapons on one side you can use the other side of your mech as a shield, keeping that weapon firing even after sustaining massive damage. Like the centurion.
@@samuelbaldwin2184 My understanding is that forced withdrawal goes back to the rp roots of games BT and Warhammer have. However BT has codified 'critical damage' to a point where it is an enforceable rule that is especially common in IntroTech games for both flavor and to speed up game play. An IS XL still dies under it, but what I am saying is how much is that mech actually doing without that side torso. The tournament rules I have found use forced withdrawal and don't allow you to hold objectives while withdrawing, so even gaming the RAW by moving 1 hex back doesn't do much.
It has been my experience that most mechs benefit more from the weight savings of an XL over the critical locations it costs, and trying to use a side as a shield on the table top is very tricky unless I have horribly misread the pictures in Total War, and not terribly reliable at that. And, again, under forced withdrawal rules, you lose a side torso and you have to start failing back.
XL engines are as useful as what is done with the extra tonnage. For example
Good use of an XL
Marauder 5D. 2 ER PPCs, 1 Large Pulse Laser, 2 Medium Laser, Streak 2, jump jets, 14 tons of armor, 16 DHS, CASE. This is a solid all rounder Marauder that can face most opponents in its weight class.
Poor example
Bombadier 12D. 325 XL, two LRM-20s with one ton of ammo each, AMS with one ton of amm0. SRM 4, one ton of ammo. 12.5 tons of armor. You have a fast Archer that has no endurance and less ability to defend itself.