A discussion about drum triggers. Drummers who use triggers are cheating... Wait, WHAT!? Why are people so adamant and quick to say this? That’s a pretty bold statement. Join me in discussion as I go over the reasons why Triggering is NOT cheating.
You didn't even address the reason people think it's cheating. It doesn't matter how hard you hit it, it will have the same sound and volume you set it to. Meaning you can lightly tap each bass pedel and it would have the full range of sound, and you can loosen the tension on the pedel to be as low to the ground as possible making it significantly easier. if this exact thing was done on an acoustic drum, it would hardly even make a sound. Not to mention it doesn't sound good because it makes every stroke sound identical causing very little identity or organic feel. Sometimes hitting a bass drum slightly harder than the last time you hit it sounds better to the ear and less monotonous.
It's not about cheating, it's about that stupid clicking sound and the lack of dynamics. And you're right, it is a question of ego: you use triggers because you want every single note of yours to be heard. And you need that because you want to show off your skills by playing flashy technical frills. So instead of adjusting your technique to make better music, you sterilize the music so that you can be more self-indulgent with your playing. It's pointless.
I agree withy this, if drum triggers maybe used MPE midi with a proper drum modelling software, instead of tradional MIDI triggers, then it MIGHT sound good, but i'm not aware of such hardware that would allow for such dynamics and nuace to be caputred with such a trigger, and instead we get a lot of high BPM "clicky" double bass drums in metal these days, it really sounds like i'm listening to EDM music with guitars, it's so jarring
I don't take "trigger-using" drummers too serioulsy, especially when they have a monsterous acoustic kit and every single drum has a trigger. There CAN be cases where triggers can be useful, like: - Living in an apartment, can't make too much noise. - You set out to create absurd fast music that no one can play (Don't know why but you do what you want) - Early songwriting (Cant think of any other atm) But mostly, Its more impressive to see a drummer play on an acoustic kit because not everyone has the technique to make the kit sound huge and still play fast. Whilst using triggers isn't impressive because: - You are not hearing the sound of a real drum in a real room with real mics, you are just hearing samples. (Anyone can add samples, not everyone can make a snare drum sound amazing) - You don't know if the drummer is actually playing everything you hear (Drum covers exclude this reason for both real and triggers) - You can't hear a drummer's technique too well (He can program his snare to be very sensitive where he can tap on it and make it sound huge) - There's barely any life to samples (I love 66Samus but I wish he'd start recording his actual fucking drums and stop using boring samples on his kick and snare in all of his videos. Fuck, he always has the snare mic'ed. Sure he says he "blends them", but at that point, why use samples at all?) As for the argument for the kick drum dynamics, I use Drum Leveler to equalize the hits in software. It's not cheating, it only turns them up, it isn't enhancing the hit itself, only the volume. If I hit the kick softly, it would still sound weak but it would be audible. So technique is still required otherwise we will still hear the weak hits. For demos, sure use triggers. But for final professional mixes for albums that you will SELL for others to buy with their hard earned money? No, I want to hear the drummer.
I agree to a lot of those statements! Its definitely helpful in situations that you can't make a lot of noise, but why not just use an electric drum set? Drum leveller is awesome, I played drums on a demo for that through Glenn Frickers channel, and I was surely impressed! I like the thought of the drums be organic and original in sense of actual drum sounds. Thanks for chiming in, a lot of great points, man! \M/
Congratulations you have discovered the difference between someone who is a sick ass drummer, but not a death metal drummer; and someone who is a cheater. I agree that using sampled multiple hits is cheating. In fact it is garbage. However, if you are, or want to be a death metal drummer then you need to use triggers, if you don't and want to get into that realm of the industry no one will take YOU seriously.
I dont know what many of my local drummers drum kits sound like in studio, because they all sound the same due to triggers and sampling. Their go pro live drum cams have little to no kick, because its triggered and they aren't concentrating on what their bass drum or drums, really sound like. I hit hard, primarily thrash. I am proud to have a loud and distinct snare, and kick drum sound. I want people to hear my playing, feel it. Feel the warmth, dynamic, and power of my kick drum, and what I use to hit it. I will never get that sound or feel with triggers and/or samples, because it is not me. It's a machine.
Well, I don't think they're 'cheating' but it doesn't sound good to me most of the time. Unless they're using an obvious electronic, or otherwise non-traditional sounding drum sound, metal triggered drums sound like plastic food storage containers.
My personal problem with triggers is that they rob the drums of dynamics. They make sense for bass drums most of the time, especially since you already can't get anywhere near the dynamic range on them as the rest of the set. But, I really hate when the snare and toms are triggered. Take Samus 66, for instance. I love his playing and he's extremely talented, but I hate the way his drums sound. But is he cheating? Hell no.
- Watch Nils Fjellström play Vobiscum Satanas live with triggers. - Now do the same without triggers Bonus points if every hit on bass drum is clearly audible and you do it legit: in heavy duty boots. Earn Godlike status: recreate it 1:1
I use triggers on my bass drum with my band. I used to not want to but I appreciate them now. For one, we’re very loud and don’t have a full mic setup. Two we play fast (not super fast around 230 bpm) but when not using triggers my bass drum sounds like “rumbling” and not distinct hits. And for three, I actually think triggers are harder in some situations. For example, there’s a song that even if my timing is off slightly it sounds better NOT triggered whereas when I play that song with the bass drum triggered I have to be extra careful to play clean and get those hertaz to sound accurate because the triggers make every mistake so obvious. The only downside to playing with triggers is when I’m playing slow parts ans grooves but then again blending a real mic over the triggers could fix that issue. And finally triggers will never make you able to play something you can’t play. It’s either you can play it or you can’t. I’m a real hard hitter also and have broken bass drum skins multiple times. If I played in a slower band I wouldn’t use them and everything would sound fine but the question is why would you NOT use them when blasting double bass at faster speeds?
If using drum triggers is cheating, then so is using pick-ups on your guitar lol. Neither one is making you better at the instrument, the just amplify your note.
saying triggers are cheating devices is saying a guitar should sound like an acoustic. thats the most simple way of saying so (which i totally do agree with, all that distortion is just rubbish!)
Triggers aren't cheating in and of themselves. If you're using them to do creative stuff like convert an acoustic kit into a MIDI controller, then they are very useful. Especially if you incorporate things like a Malletkat and Mandala Pads into your setups. I'll admit that since I came up as a Jazz drummer I'm a bit snobby about my drum tone and I can't stand to use triggered sounds if at all possible unless I specifically want something that blends in a more digital drum sound. Then again, I'm one of the only metal drummers that uses coated heads, wood hoops and almost no moongel. I had my endorser Liberty put an internal mute on my snare specifically to avoid that and give me control. Another thing people (even producers) don't consider with triggers is that you can use the electronic signal generated by the device upon impact to power a volume booster/regulator on your bass drum signal and EQ it straight from a DAW rather than just using a sampled sound. In other words: specifically timed volume boosts to your natural bass drum sound.
And like anything related to music and art, it’s interpretative. Those are some really good points, and they definitely have their place in a drummers craft. Well said! 🤜
@@CameronFleury of course! Speaking of gear, hit me up if you're ever interested in endorsing or reviewing Symrna Cymbals. We are looking to continue the appearances after our Modern Drummer magazine/podcast reviews helped boost us up. Our stuff is hand-made in Turkey by former employees of Diril (makers of Byzance series), Istanbul and Bosphorus and we have our own foundry stocked with equipment that's either exactly replicating or based on the equipment found in the abandoned Zildjian foundry.
When people say that drum triggers are cheating it's complete nonsense to me, because there is no such thing as cheating in music in my opinion, music is an art not a game, but it does make sense to say that it is less skillful, but when people are going as far as to saying it's cheating doesn't make sense to me. whenever i'm playing at tempos 250 to 260 and above i can barely hear my bass drum and it's also really difficult to hear if i'm playing single strokes precisely and drum triggers made things so much easier for me. But anyways great video man! so far i'm loving your content keep it up, cheers!
Hi Cameron, first of all, a realy good topic and yes it's me again, the german guy :D Have you checked Tobias Schuler? If you have, you know that he plays really fast. I had the pleasure to mix his band "Fuck You And Die" at my venue and he also uses triggers at his kick. For me as a live mixing dude it's really cool to have a drummer with triggers because, espacially in hard conditions of the room (for example tiles on the wall), you don't have to struggle this hard with re-bouncing frequencies and this stuff. You can archieve a similar effect with a boundary microfone which I also like to use a lot. Keep up the good work, really enjoying your videos :)
Yeah I can see how that would be difficult to try and manage. But I suppose with more practice you'll learn to understand what works, and what doesn't in the room. Thanks for the kind words, i'll keep putting them out! :)
Triggers totally showcase your weaknesses and the one using them must very precise. The thing with triggers for me is that, yeah there is no way to play loud and powerful at 280 bpm and the triggers should be used in those situations. Slower than that, i feel the need to hear the dynamics, to hear the human element in the music, and most importantly i prefer feeling the boom than just a clicky sound trough the PA, because it is just a clicky sound and that boom and moving air is what drums should be all about. I must agree with Glenn Fricker in this type of discussions. But like i said, triggers have their use and is definitely harder to play with them, i know because i´ve used them. Great Video, Cheers!
Of course! When i'm drumming in Glenn's studio there are obviously no triggers on the kick drum. So, its nice to be able to use them when you need them, personal preference I suppose. I guess what i'm saying is that I can play with out without triggers, and its nice to not have to rely on it.
This is hilarious! Once I discovered triggering, I sought this video out knowing it had to exist. The only thing I could think a drummer being called out on for using triggers, was if they had set one velocity for each individual stroke, thus masking any dynamic inconsistencies (which is what Ive been hearing mostly but Im new to this too).. Rhythmic inconsistencies however, are slightly more audibly apparent, but I might get on a drummers case if they were input quantizing their blast beats lol.. Either way, your engineer is going to put your kicks on the grid in the final mix. Even your solid takes get edited, if youre mixing for that pro sound. I say embrace MIDI. My fav line from this was "Music is not a competition."
You dont want to quantize because the human performance is lost but replacing the sound you produce by a sample in a trigger does not compromise the human element of drumming? Hm. And I dont think any metal drummer has dynamic sensitivity in their triggerred Bassdrums. :D
Of course, and I'm on the fence about it all. As you can see in my other videos, I don't really trigger all that much any more. I'm setup for triggers, but decided to practice without them.
Cameron Fleury Power to you. You can trigger all you want or not and its fine. I just dont think you are coherent in your arguments about the human element. Of course dynamics can be changed in the module but hardly any metal drummer would allow dynamics because they dont want any. (at least in their bassdrum)
We are in 2018 and i think people realized/accepted the answer, there is no longer a reason to answer this question. However nowadays the new topic is what you started to mention, quantizing and editing, which is an important topic especially for drummers. It's a large question but basically i don't think it's cheating but as you said, it's lying. And it's mostly because majority of listener don't give a fuck about the performance but they're focusing mostly on the music itself. Well i don't think it's bad, but as a musician it's very easy to hear if the drum is quantized or too much edited. And i prefer when it's not (or not too much) Ho and by the way concerning trigger, i will now use my Roland kick pad on stage, i don't really give a damn shit about what people think and i believe the audience don't really give a shit too as long as they enjoy the show
Exactly, do what you want to do! From a studio engineers stand point, I can understand that they want their product to be very pleasant to listen to. If that means quantizing, using elastic time or even using samples for drums. And its unfortunate, because people are used to hearing perfection, and that seems be slowly replacing the drummer. At the end of the day, if you're happy with what you're doing, then you're doing it right.
I have no problem with triggers, but I really dislike when the bass drum is mixed with the velocity maxed out throughout the whole album or song to the point where it’s painfully obvious. Hearing the dynamics of double bass pedals is a really awesome feeling and it give it a very human characteristic.
I used to use the roland RT-10K on the kick. Now i've got the EKITs installed on my axis pedals. I haven't been triggering as of lately. The EKITS are especially cool because I don't actually have to trigger the bass drum. Instead i've been using an AKG D112 MK II to mic the bass drum, and i've added a danmar pad on the bass drum batter skin. (for that clicking attack).
Personally I think people use triggers for tone more so than performance. Some people love the feel of an acoustic kit but just don't know how to get a good drum tone. So they use triggers to ease their way into a good drum sound.
I don’t think triggers are cheating, I use them myself for clarity and volume during live performances. However, there is some merit to the feeling that trigger ABUSE allows some drummers to be shall we say...disingenuous. I.e. double stroke bass drum players that crank the sensitivity and scoop dynamics. I won’t go so far as to say this is cheating, but it’s definitely intentionally misleading and borderline fraudulent. Good rule of thumb, would you be impressed by sound the drummer created on an acoustic kit WITHOUT triggers? If so Then it’s not cheating (ex Derek Roddy, krimh, kevin paradis etc.). Now compare that to 90% of the double stroke crowd and be honest, there’s a reason you never hear these guys play a note without triggers...because it sounds like nothing close. They can’t replicate their parts acoustically, not only in terms of volume which is fair because volume is always the biggest issue, but they can’t replicate the power or consistency. There are maybe a handful of exceptions to this rule but in general we all know who this applies to (not naming any names). So in closing, if triggers are there to solve a volume and clarity issue...legit. If they are solving a volume and clarity issue in addition to embellishing power and consistency....you miiiiight be a little dishonest about your abilities.
You're right. I mix metal all the time and I'm still yet to find a drummer that can make all hits sound even on the bass drum at super fast speeds. When I look at the stems really close when mixing, i can actually see the difference between the hits on a fast double bass part, and usually the hits that come from the left leg of the player, most of times is half of the size of the right leg hit, Or the opposite if the drummer is lefty.
I've been using slate trigger2 lately. You can turn the input knob until the visual shows fairly even transients and that usually does the trick, and it sounds like a human is playing. You can blend the original source with another kick or copy it and process it separate from the original source and blend them with the faders. I highly recommend it.
I usually buy them but it sounds like a fair deal. I don't think trigger2 is included in though. I really like their plugins, I especially like the FGS and FGX
From the POV of a studio guy and having played in a band; Triggers have there place, so does good mic placement and making sure the whole damn band can play the song at tempo. EDIT: that's not a criticism one thing I've learned.
It's refreshing to hear it from another drummer who's done both studio and touring. And getting the rest of the band members to play the same tempo will always be an issue. Unless everyone plays to a click live.
Most producers these days like to quantize and sample replace drums even so that it sounds MASSIVE and amazing production wise so that they get more business. It's rare they will let a sloppy performance get through.
Yeah I totally agree. I never went crazy on drum quantizing bands I recorded. It resulted in sloppier sounding productions and in return less bands come to me because I don't make them sound like crazy ass machines. Because sometimes bad musicians have money and the good ones don't :D
It is like to say electric guitar player who uses active pick up is a cheater? Lol Triggers are the same as active pickup. It is just something that creates a tone and no means will make you play great or as machines, they will just modify your tone.
It's really an argument about the beater hitting the head off a rebound when the drummer doesn't mean to and it sounds intentional and the strike value sounds just as much as the original hit thus making it sound as if the drummer is intentionally playing the second strike when actually it's just a rebound hit. Think of delay on a guitar. If you have the feedback high the delayed note is just as strong as the first note making it sound like he's playing twice as fast than what he's actually playing.
It's not really about cheating or not, it just sounds like shit to me and artificial in thrash/death bands. Overproduced. It's the equivalent for me to junk food stuffed with preservatives. I want drums to sound like drums.
I love this idea that you can take someone who can't play drums, put them behind an electronic kit, and suddenly they're Bonham. It's absurd, and yet has persisted for decades. Sure, you can record hits via midi and use a program to make 1 note into many notes. But, what point does that serve? Can't play live or make a cover, the second you do everyone will see you've actually cheated.
I mean most people who trigger their drums actually play the notes. Like metal guys for instance. They use triggers on their kick drum live to help cut through the loud noises that are the guitars. It's definitely got a Place. But I don't think they should replace a studio session that was recorded with acoustic drums.
@@CameronFleury Yeah, I agree. It's just the absolute distain for anything that isn't acoustic that I don't understand. For instance, I'm in a house with other people, so I have a Roland TD-11KV for the mesh heads. It was either that or stop drumming all together (bought it before all the mesh add-ons, those quiet cymbals, etc were made to essentially silence acoustic kits). I just find people ignore any legitimate reasoning for electronic kits, or triggers in general, for the argument that they somehow move your limbs for you or something.
It simply must just be sheer Ignorance. Most likely they're going off someone else beliefs and haven't concluded it for some selves. Great comment man!
If triggers are cheating, then so is anyone who plays an electronic kit. I've recorded at 240 bpm without triggers and it just sounded like one note, like a truck driving past.
Great vid. The more knowledge one have, the less room for ego there is. I remember George Kollias saying something like that some years ago, "You can't play at 220 bpm without triggers and have people hear what you're doing" . Also, I'm happy to inform that this happened: imgur.com/FJnn4kv
Now take thats what it's going to sound like in the jam room. Think of how it would sound coming out of a massive PA? I think triggering the kick helps with that "bunch of low end". No?
Most definitely. I find that when i'm not triggering the bass drum, its hard to hear from behind the drum kit. So it's also nice to use them as "live monitoring".
You and me both! When I use them... But yeah, they have lots of cool stuff out there so you can hear/feel your kick drum. Check out the butt thumper or something like it, I think thats what it's called!
I know this is an older vid, Im all cool with kick triggers, I just bought a snare trigger to blend with the acoustic mic sound in my home studio. And even though in my eyes I'm just "cheating" mixing and mastering time/costs till I learn more. I feel hella guilty about it. It's a goofy feeling for sure lol
I cheat! haha jk. It's true that if you don't play with good time and tight it's very noticeable. I have seen sloppy drummers use triggers and it sounded terrible. My only pet peeve is when the sound guy assumes because you trigger he needs to turn it to 11 in the FOH mix though.. Sometimes it's just TOO much. Especially with that many kick drums being hit in the sets I play lol
NO YOU DON'T! haha Yeah man some pretty odd scenarios can arise when you're gigging with triggers. I've had some pretty bad things happen to me over the years of touring with triggers. If he turns it up to 11 he wants to see you sweat. haha
"They're cheating" (not "their") and no, objectively they are not. If they're just tapping the head and using a trigger to hide that, then sure. But then they will be screwing themselves in any sections where you just play the drum at regular tempos (quarter notes or whatever) because the trigger will be misfiring all over the place.
That triggers aren't cheating :) I think that not only do they misrepresent what a drummer is capable of live (what you hear is NOT what you get), but they are also a crutch to drummers who use them, meaning that they remove an incentive for building up the strength and endurance in your legs. I realize that you need a lot of control to able to get those light taps to all be the same strength, but you know what? the drummer who doesn't use them also has to hit the bassdrum at consistent strength. But then again this is a classic debate, there will always be people on both sides of the fence here.
I think that if you're using them incorrectly they misrepresent what a drummer is capable of. Question. Do you use triggers, or have you ever used them? \M/
Our drummer(and my best bud, who has been playing drum with me over all these years) do not use them, never has, and has the same stance as me on the matter. He insists on his acoustic performance be heard as is by the crowd, without triggers.
I haven't used my triggers in a few months, and i'm finding that I can play those same parts regardless. I think its a great idea to be able to do it acoustically, and then use the triggers to artificially enhance the sound. :)
Who fucking cares if you don't know how to tune or mic your own motherfucking instrument in order for it to be audible at Death Metal tempos. That's on you. Play the instrument good or bad instead of pretending to. This is Metal, not Pop.
A discussion about drum triggers. Drummers who use triggers are cheating... Wait, WHAT!? Why are people so adamant and quick to say this? That’s a pretty bold statement. Join me in discussion as I go over the reasons why Triggering is NOT cheating.
You didn't even address the reason people think it's cheating. It doesn't matter how hard you hit it, it will have the same sound and volume you set it to. Meaning you can lightly tap each bass pedel and it would have the full range of sound, and you can loosen the tension on the pedel to be as low to the ground as possible making it significantly easier. if this exact thing was done on an acoustic drum, it would hardly even make a sound. Not to mention it doesn't sound good because it makes every stroke sound identical causing very little identity or organic feel. Sometimes hitting a bass drum slightly harder than the last time you hit it sounds better to the ear and less monotonous.
Shouldn't such a discussion start what triggering is?
When people realize triggers showcase your weaknesses, not enhance your playing, we'll all sleep a little easier. lol ~ Great video, Cam.
Hey, thanks for stopping by! I'd just wish people would understand that. \M/
Drum videos without drums are cheating.
ELITIST! I'm kidding! If you're interested in some of my drumming, feel free to browse my channel! :) Thanks for stopping by.
It's not about cheating, it's about that stupid clicking sound and the lack of dynamics. And you're right, it is a question of ego: you use triggers because you want every single note of yours to be heard. And you need that because you want to show off your skills by playing flashy technical frills. So instead of adjusting your technique to make better music, you sterilize the music so that you can be more self-indulgent with your playing. It's pointless.
In a roundabout kind of way. It's never ending! Great points and thoughts.
Good luck making 280 bpm sound good without triggers even with perfect technique.
I agree withy this, if drum triggers maybe used MPE midi with a proper drum modelling software, instead of tradional MIDI triggers, then it MIGHT sound good, but i'm not aware of such hardware that would allow for such dynamics and nuace to be caputred with such a trigger, and instead we get a lot of high BPM "clicky" double bass drums in metal these days, it really sounds like i'm listening to EDM music with guitars, it's so jarring
I don't take "trigger-using" drummers too serioulsy, especially when they have a monsterous acoustic kit and every single drum has a trigger.
There CAN be cases where triggers can be useful, like:
- Living in an apartment, can't make too much noise.
- You set out to create absurd fast music that no one can play (Don't know why but you do what you want)
- Early songwriting
(Cant think of any other atm)
But mostly, Its more impressive to see a drummer play on an acoustic kit because not everyone has the technique to make the kit sound huge and still play fast. Whilst using triggers isn't impressive because:
- You are not hearing the sound of a real drum in a real room with real mics, you are just hearing samples. (Anyone can add samples, not everyone can make a snare drum sound amazing)
- You don't know if the drummer is actually playing everything you hear (Drum covers exclude this reason for both real and triggers)
- You can't hear a drummer's technique too well (He can program his snare to be very sensitive where he can tap on it and make it sound huge)
- There's barely any life to samples (I love 66Samus but I wish he'd start recording his actual fucking drums and stop using boring samples on his kick and snare in all of his videos. Fuck, he always has the snare mic'ed. Sure he says he "blends them", but at that point, why use samples at all?)
As for the argument for the kick drum dynamics, I use Drum Leveler to equalize the hits in software. It's not cheating, it only turns them up, it isn't enhancing the hit itself, only the volume. If I hit the kick softly, it would still sound weak but it would be audible. So technique is still required otherwise we will still hear the weak hits.
For demos, sure use triggers. But for final professional mixes for albums that you will SELL for others to buy with their hard earned money? No, I want to hear the drummer.
I agree to a lot of those statements! Its definitely helpful in situations that you can't make a lot of noise, but why not just use an electric drum set? Drum leveller is awesome, I played drums on a demo for that through Glenn Frickers channel, and I was surely impressed! I like the thought of the drums be organic and original in sense of actual drum sounds. Thanks for chiming in, a lot of great points, man! \M/
Congratulations you have discovered the difference between someone who is a sick ass drummer, but not a death metal drummer; and someone who is a cheater. I agree that using sampled multiple hits is cheating. In fact it is garbage. However, if you are, or want to be a death metal drummer then you need to use triggers, if you don't and want to get into that realm of the industry no one will take YOU seriously.
What you're doing with Drum Leveler is much more of a cheat than what 99% of people are doing with triggers.
I dont know what many of my local drummers drum kits sound like in studio, because they all sound the same due to triggers and sampling.
Their go pro live drum cams have little to no kick, because its triggered and they aren't concentrating on what their bass drum or drums, really sound like.
I hit hard, primarily thrash. I am proud to have a loud and distinct snare, and kick drum sound. I want people to hear my playing, feel it. Feel the warmth, dynamic, and power of my kick drum, and what I use to hit it.
I will never get that sound or feel with triggers and/or samples, because it is not me. It's a machine.
exactly!!!!!
Totally agree. I have no idea what people hate triggers. If you think about it, keyboards are 88 triggers for your fingers.
What about keytar? 😆
Triggering a sample hides your weaknesses. Truth is truth. Playing the instrument the way it was designed to be played reveals your every weakness.
Well, I don't think they're 'cheating' but it doesn't sound good to me most of the time. Unless they're using an obvious electronic, or otherwise non-traditional sounding drum sound, metal triggered drums sound like plastic food storage containers.
My personal problem with triggers is that they rob the drums of dynamics. They make sense for bass drums most of the time, especially since you already can't get anywhere near the dynamic range on them as the rest of the set. But, I really hate when the snare and toms are triggered. Take Samus 66, for instance. I love his playing and he's extremely talented, but I hate the way his drums sound. But is he cheating? Hell no.
Hey to each their own man! If that's the sound they're after then go for it. 66Samus is great!
- Watch Nils Fjellström play Vobiscum Satanas live with triggers.
- Now do the same without triggers
Bonus points if every hit on bass drum is clearly audible and you do it legit: in heavy duty boots.
Earn Godlike status: recreate it 1:1
I use triggers on my bass drum with my band. I used to not want to but I appreciate them now. For one, we’re very loud and don’t have a full mic setup. Two we play fast (not super fast around 230 bpm) but when not using triggers my bass drum sounds like “rumbling” and not distinct hits. And for three, I actually think triggers are harder in some situations. For example, there’s a song that even if my timing is off slightly it sounds better NOT triggered whereas when I play that song with the bass drum triggered I have to be extra careful to play clean and get those hertaz to sound accurate because the triggers make every mistake so obvious. The only downside to playing with triggers is when I’m playing slow parts ans grooves but then again blending a real mic over the triggers could fix that issue. And finally triggers will never make you able to play something you can’t play. It’s either you can play it or you can’t. I’m a real hard hitter also and have broken bass drum skins multiple times. If I played in a slower band I wouldn’t use them and everything would sound fine but the question is why would you NOT use them when blasting double bass at faster speeds?
If using drum triggers is cheating, then so is using pick-ups on your guitar lol. Neither one is making you better at the instrument, the just amplify your note.
No actualy a trigger uses a sample, its not amplifying anything.
saying triggers are cheating devices is saying a guitar should sound like an acoustic. thats the most simple way of saying so (which i totally do agree with, all that distortion is just rubbish!)
Saying triggering is cheating is like a guitar player who uses a metalzone pedal.
Triggers aren't cheating in and of themselves. If you're using them to do creative stuff like convert an acoustic kit into a MIDI controller, then they are very useful. Especially if you incorporate things like a Malletkat and Mandala Pads into your setups.
I'll admit that since I came up as a Jazz drummer I'm a bit snobby about my drum tone and I can't stand to use triggered sounds if at all possible unless I specifically want something that blends in a more digital drum sound. Then again, I'm one of the only metal drummers that uses coated heads, wood hoops and almost no moongel. I had my endorser Liberty put an internal mute on my snare specifically to avoid that and give me control.
Another thing people (even producers) don't consider with triggers is that you can use the electronic signal generated by the device upon impact to power a volume booster/regulator on your bass drum signal and EQ it straight from a DAW rather than just using a sampled sound. In other words: specifically timed volume boosts to your natural bass drum sound.
And like anything related to music and art, it’s interpretative. Those are some really good points, and they definitely have their place in a drummers craft. Well said! 🤜
@@CameronFleury of course! Speaking of gear, hit me up if you're ever interested in endorsing or reviewing Symrna Cymbals. We are looking to continue the appearances after our Modern Drummer magazine/podcast reviews helped boost us up.
Our stuff is hand-made in Turkey by former employees of Diril (makers of Byzance series), Istanbul and Bosphorus and we have our own foundry stocked with equipment that's either exactly replicating or based on the equipment found in the abandoned Zildjian foundry.
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When people say that drum triggers are cheating it's complete nonsense to me, because there is no such thing as cheating in music in my opinion, music is an art not a game, but it does make sense to say that it is less skillful, but when people are going as far as to saying it's cheating doesn't make sense to me. whenever i'm playing at tempos 250 to 260 and above i can barely hear my bass drum and it's also really difficult to hear if i'm playing single strokes precisely and drum triggers made things so much easier for me. But anyways great video man! so far i'm loving your content keep it up, cheers!
Hi Cameron, first of all, a realy good topic and yes it's me again, the german guy :D
Have you checked Tobias Schuler?
If you have, you know that he plays really fast. I had the pleasure to mix his band "Fuck You And Die" at my venue and he also uses triggers at his kick.
For me as a live mixing dude it's really cool to have a drummer with triggers because, espacially in hard conditions of the room (for example tiles on the wall), you don't have to struggle this hard with re-bouncing frequencies and this stuff. You can archieve a similar effect with a boundary microfone which I also like to use a lot.
Keep up the good work, really enjoying your videos :)
Yeah I can see how that would be difficult to try and manage. But I suppose with more practice you'll learn to understand what works, and what doesn't in the room. Thanks for the kind words, i'll keep putting them out! :)
Yes, after two or three years of mixing in this room I know how to get a decent sound but with every gig you learn something new and that's awesome :)
Triggers totally showcase your weaknesses and the one using them must very precise. The thing with triggers for me is that, yeah there is no way to play loud and powerful at 280 bpm and the triggers should be used in those situations. Slower than that, i feel the need to hear the dynamics, to hear the human element in the music, and most importantly i prefer feeling the boom than just a clicky sound trough the PA, because it is just a clicky sound and that boom and moving air is what drums should be all about. I must agree with Glenn Fricker in this type of discussions. But like i said, triggers have their use and is definitely harder to play with them, i know because i´ve used them. Great Video, Cheers!
Of course! When i'm drumming in Glenn's studio there are obviously no triggers on the kick drum. So, its nice to be able to use them when you need them, personal preference I suppose. I guess what i'm saying is that I can play with out without triggers, and its nice to not have to rely on it.
You can achieve a normal “click” sound by simply adding a rack Tom mic on the batter side aiming at where the pedals hit the head.
This is hilarious! Once I discovered triggering, I sought this video out knowing it had to exist.
The only thing I could think a drummer being called out on for using triggers, was if they had set one velocity for each individual stroke, thus masking any dynamic inconsistencies (which is what Ive been hearing mostly but Im new to this too).. Rhythmic inconsistencies however, are slightly more audibly apparent, but I might get on a drummers case if they were input quantizing their blast beats lol.. Either way, your engineer is going to put your kicks on the grid in the final mix. Even your solid takes get edited, if youre mixing for that pro sound. I say embrace MIDI. My fav line from this was "Music is not a competition."
Music definitely is not s competition, and people to this day still try and compete. Regardless thanks for watching and taking the time to comment!
"Music is not a competition". I needed to hear this today. Thanks man
You dont want to quantize because the human performance is lost but replacing the sound you produce by a sample in a trigger does not compromise the human element of drumming? Hm.
And I dont think any metal drummer has dynamic sensitivity in their triggerred Bassdrums. :D
I mean trigger all you want I really dont care and it can be usefull. But you loose the human element. No doubt about it.
Of course, and I'm on the fence about it all. As you can see in my other videos, I don't really trigger all that much any more. I'm setup for triggers, but decided to practice without them.
And no, the sensitivity would be changed from the drummers module. :)
Cameron Fleury Power to you. You can trigger all you want or not and its fine. I just dont think you are coherent in your arguments about the human element.
Of course dynamics can be changed in the module but hardly any metal drummer would allow dynamics because they dont want any. (at least in their bassdrum)
Do you use triggers or not?
We are in 2018 and i think people realized/accepted the answer, there is no longer a reason to answer this question. However nowadays the new topic is what you started to mention, quantizing and editing, which is an important topic especially for drummers. It's a large question but basically i don't think it's cheating but as you said, it's lying. And it's mostly because majority of listener don't give a fuck about the performance but they're focusing mostly on the music itself.
Well i don't think it's bad, but as a musician it's very easy to hear if the drum is quantized or too much edited. And i prefer when it's not (or not too much)
Ho and by the way concerning trigger, i will now use my Roland kick pad on stage, i don't really give a damn shit about what people think and i believe the audience don't really give a shit too as long as they enjoy the show
Exactly, do what you want to do! From a studio engineers stand point, I can understand that they want their product to be very pleasant to listen to. If that means quantizing, using elastic time or even using samples for drums. And its unfortunate, because people are used to hearing perfection, and that seems be slowly replacing the drummer. At the end of the day, if you're happy with what you're doing, then you're doing it right.
yeah... the greats of the past never needed triggers. so no; i will never use triggers.
I have no problem with triggers, but I really dislike when the bass drum is mixed with the velocity maxed out throughout the whole album or song to the point where it’s painfully obvious. Hearing the dynamics of double bass pedals is a really awesome feeling and it give it a very human characteristic.
Speaking of drum triggers for death metal, what drum triggers do you use?
I used to use the roland RT-10K on the kick. Now i've got the EKITs installed on my axis pedals. I haven't been triggering as of lately. The EKITS are especially cool because I don't actually have to trigger the bass drum. Instead i've been using an AKG D112 MK II to mic the bass drum, and i've added a danmar pad on the bass drum batter skin. (for that clicking attack).
Anyone who thinks triggers are cheating knows nothing about triggers
Personally I think people use triggers for tone more so than performance. Some people love the feel of an acoustic kit but just don't know how to get a good drum tone. So they use triggers to ease their way into a good drum sound.
Cool point of view! Never really considered that. Or maybe for some people its a cheaper alternative to really nice drums?
I owe you a beer for setting it straight like this.
Cheers bud!
No beer needed my friend! Just sharing some thoughts. Glad you’re into it!
Well, I think of triggering as cheating kinda like playing electric guitar through a distorted amp would, of course, also be cheating....
There we're no real dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. Are they cheating? 😂
Wait, what? Those aren't real dinosaurs?
I heard they we're all stunt doubles.
I don’t think triggers are cheating, I use them myself for clarity and volume during live performances. However, there is some merit to the feeling that trigger ABUSE allows some drummers to be shall we say...disingenuous. I.e. double stroke bass drum players that crank the sensitivity and scoop dynamics. I won’t go so far as to say this is cheating, but it’s definitely intentionally misleading and borderline fraudulent. Good rule of thumb, would you be impressed by sound the drummer created on an acoustic kit WITHOUT triggers? If so Then it’s not cheating (ex Derek Roddy, krimh, kevin paradis etc.). Now compare that to 90% of the double stroke crowd and be honest, there’s a reason you never hear these guys play a note without triggers...because it sounds like nothing close. They can’t replicate their parts acoustically, not only in terms of volume which is fair because volume is always the biggest issue, but they can’t replicate the power or consistency. There are maybe a handful of exceptions to this rule but in general we all know who this applies to (not naming any names). So in closing, if triggers are there to solve a volume and clarity issue...legit. If they are solving a volume and clarity issue in addition to embellishing power and consistency....you miiiiight be a little dishonest about your abilities.
You're right. I mix metal all the time and I'm still yet to find a drummer that can make all hits sound even on the bass drum at super fast speeds. When I look at the stems really close when mixing, i can actually see the difference between the hits on a fast double bass part, and usually the hits that come from the left leg of the player, most of times is half of the size of the right leg hit, Or the opposite if the drummer is lefty.
Which in turn might make a job for someone like you more difficult. What do you do, have you used drum leveller?
I've been using slate trigger2 lately. You can turn the input knob until the visual shows fairly even transients and that usually does the trick, and it sounds like a human is playing. You can blend the original source with another kick or copy it and process it separate from the original source and blend them with the faders. I highly recommend it.
Very cool. I was actually checking out their everything bundle. Seems like a really good deal. Thoughts?
I usually buy them but it sounds like a fair deal. I don't think trigger2 is included in though. I really like their plugins, I especially like the FGS and FGX
Awesome thanks so much! Definitely going to look into this. \M/
From the POV of a studio guy and having played in a band; Triggers have there place, so does good mic placement and making sure the whole damn band can play the song at tempo. EDIT: that's not a criticism one thing I've learned.
It's refreshing to hear it from another drummer who's done both studio and touring. And getting the rest of the band members to play the same tempo will always be an issue. Unless everyone plays to a click live.
Most producers these days like to quantize and sample replace drums even so that it sounds MASSIVE and amazing production wise so that they get more business. It's rare they will let a sloppy performance get through.
From a business stand point that's not a bad move, but whats that doing to the industry and their standards? y'know?
Yeah I totally agree. I never went crazy on drum quantizing bands I recorded. It resulted in sloppier sounding productions and in return less bands come to me because I don't make them sound like crazy ass machines. Because sometimes bad musicians have money and the good ones don't :D
Autotune enhances singing. Triggers enhance bass drum......
It is like to say electric guitar player who uses active pick up is a cheater? Lol Triggers are the same as active pickup. It is just something that creates a tone and no means will make you play great or as machines, they will just modify your tone.
We should start a petition for guitar players who won't turn down. What do you think?
It's really an argument about the beater hitting the head off a rebound when the drummer doesn't mean to and it sounds intentional and the strike value sounds just as much as the original hit thus making it sound as if the drummer is intentionally playing the second strike when actually it's just a rebound hit.
Think of delay on a guitar. If you have the feedback high the delayed note is just as strong as the first note making it sound like he's playing twice as fast than what he's actually playing.
It's not really about cheating or not, it just sounds like shit to me and artificial in thrash/death bands. Overproduced. It's the equivalent for me to junk food stuffed with preservatives. I want drums to sound like drums.
Hey that's fair enough! We're most definitely allowed to form our own opinions! 🤘
I love this idea that you can take someone who can't play drums, put them behind an electronic kit, and suddenly they're Bonham. It's absurd, and yet has persisted for decades. Sure, you can record hits via midi and use a program to make 1 note into many notes. But, what point does that serve? Can't play live or make a cover, the second you do everyone will see you've actually cheated.
I mean most people who trigger their drums actually play the notes. Like metal guys for instance. They use triggers on their kick drum live to help cut through the loud noises that are the guitars. It's definitely got a Place. But I don't think they should replace a studio session that was recorded with acoustic drums.
@@CameronFleury Yeah, I agree. It's just the absolute distain for anything that isn't acoustic that I don't understand. For instance, I'm in a house with other people, so I have a Roland TD-11KV for the mesh heads. It was either that or stop drumming all together (bought it before all the mesh add-ons, those quiet cymbals, etc were made to essentially silence acoustic kits). I just find people ignore any legitimate reasoning for electronic kits, or triggers in general, for the argument that they somehow move your limbs for you or something.
It simply must just be sheer Ignorance. Most likely they're going off someone else beliefs and haven't concluded it for some selves. Great comment man!
If triggers are cheating, then so is anyone who plays an electronic kit. I've recorded at 240 bpm without triggers and it just sounded like one note, like a truck driving past.
I'm sloppy as shit with or without triggers. LOL. It's also like saying play guitar without distortion :D
hahaha man regardless of what you use, it'll take practice!
Triggering is cheating. End.
Just reading this comments I can tell no one knows who chris turner is from OAA. Man plays fast and techy and never uses triggers.
Great vid. The more knowledge one have, the less room for ego there is.
I remember George Kollias saying something like that some years ago, "You can't play at 220 bpm without triggers and have people hear what you're doing" .
Also, I'm happy to inform that this happened:
imgur.com/FJnn4kv
That sounds like something he would say. Also the number of the beast! Amazing. \M/
Everything you said is totally true ! Good video Cameron !
Thank you Alain! I tried to cover most of the topics. Hopefully that's the case! Thanks for stopping bye.
i used to hate triggers, then i was forced to move to an electric kit and i learnt do appreciate them.
It's a tool that can be used to yourusical advantage.
Your bassdrum will just sound like a bunch of low-end at 260+
Now take thats what it's going to sound like in the jam room. Think of how it would sound coming out of a massive PA? I think triggering the kick helps with that "bunch of low end". No?
I use triggers myself and most of the time the gig's I play are on 20 pa systems, so triggering does help a lot for clarity of the basdrum
Most definitely. I find that when i'm not triggering the bass drum, its hard to hear from behind the drum kit. So it's also nice to use them as "live monitoring".
Cameron Fleury oh definitely, I can never play if I can't hear my bassdrum so I will always send my triggers to my in ears
You and me both! When I use them... But yeah, they have lots of cool stuff out there so you can hear/feel your kick drum. Check out the butt thumper or something like it, I think thats what it's called!
I know this is an older vid, Im all cool with kick triggers, I just bought a snare trigger to blend with the acoustic mic sound in my home studio. And even though in my eyes I'm just "cheating" mixing and mastering time/costs till I learn more. I feel hella guilty about it. It's a goofy feeling for sure lol
What is the music in the end of the video
My old band called Terrorhorse. From the unrequited and unscathed album. Check it out on Spotify!
I cheat! haha jk. It's true that if you don't play with good time and tight it's very noticeable. I have seen sloppy drummers use triggers and it sounded terrible. My only pet peeve is when the sound guy assumes because you trigger he needs to turn it to 11 in the FOH mix though.. Sometimes it's just TOO much. Especially with that many kick drums being hit in the sets I play lol
NO YOU DON'T! haha Yeah man some pretty odd scenarios can arise when you're gigging with triggers. I've had some pretty bad things happen to me over the years of touring with triggers. If he turns it up to 11 he wants to see you sweat. haha
I dont have a problem with triggers, i understand why death metal bands (espesialy techDeath bands) use them. But objectively their cheating.
I don't mind them either.
"They're cheating" (not "their") and no, objectively they are not. If they're just tapping the head and using a trigger to hide that, then sure. But then they will be screwing themselves in any sections where you just play the drum at regular tempos (quarter notes or whatever) because the trigger will be misfiring all over the place.
Let's agree to disagree on this one! I'll keep watching your videos nonetheless \m/
What do you disagree on? :)
That triggers aren't cheating :) I think that not only do they misrepresent what a drummer is capable of live (what you hear is NOT what you get), but they are also a crutch to drummers who use them, meaning that they remove an incentive for building up the strength and endurance in your legs. I realize that you need a lot of control to able to get those light taps to all be the same strength, but you know what? the drummer who doesn't use them also has to hit the bassdrum at consistent strength. But then again this is a classic debate, there will always be people on both sides of the fence here.
I think that if you're using them incorrectly they misrepresent what a drummer is capable of. Question. Do you use triggers, or have you ever used them? \M/
Our drummer(and my best bud, who has been playing drum with me over all these years) do not use them, never has, and has the same stance as me on the matter. He insists on his acoustic performance be heard as is by the crowd, without triggers.
I haven't used my triggers in a few months, and i'm finding that I can play those same parts regardless. I think its a great idea to be able to do it acoustically, and then use the triggers to artificially enhance the sound. :)
Say that in the drum line! You're not a cheater you just suck!..... Well unless your playing techno!/
250+ w/o triggers would sound like this:
Brrrrrrrrrr
Yes, yes it would. 😅
I trigger my acoustics to the pa for perfect sound balance. Cry i guess.
No dynamics, that is all.
Well Fuckin put Mr
Thanks Daniel! Just stopping by or are you a subscriber?
Cameron Fleury Def subscriber saw you through Frickers channel. Keep up the good work
Thanks so much man!
Fuck yeah! Thx Bro
You're quite welcome! \M/ New to the channel?
Who fucking cares if you don't know how to tune or mic your own motherfucking instrument in order for it to be audible at Death Metal tempos. That's on you. Play the instrument good or bad instead of pretending to. This is Metal, not Pop.
This video triggered me
And so it begins... 😆
Best I could do, didn't have a proper pun trigger
Maybe we'll stop that one right there. I liked the first comment better 😁
Love it
No blast beats, but it'll do, right? haha Thanks man!
Cameron Fleury bout time some one settled this argument
There's no pleasing everyone, just my 2 cents!