@@Nancenotes Hey Tim. Discovered you a little while back and love your RUclips channel. I've started on Inferno: geed-up and delving into the depths of this complex, yet oddly first-time reader accessible text. Looking forward to your Richard III insight; I've just finished teaching it to my year 9s and they've absolutely devoured it - gore 'n' all. Thought the Hamlet analysis was terrific and adore your friendly, energetic style and your ability to humanise/ contextualise these flawed characters. Future texts it would be good to hear you evaluate might be Canterbury Tales, or perhaps even Don Quixote. Hope you're keeping safe. Best Magnus (Nottingham, UK)
First of all, this isn't my favorite play, no, but I still think it was laugh-out-loud funny. Launce and Crab were the best. The outlaws in the forest, Sir Eglamore -- they were all funny. The dynamics between the duke and Sir Therio were exquisite - at least in the BBC production. In fact, the duke was mesmerizing throughout, but again, I can only speak for the acting in the BBC production. The scene in which the duke, by subterfuge, exposes Valentine's plans to elope with his daughter comes to mind. (Reading it would still be great, but seeing the scene acted is even better.) Also, remembering your objection to Romeo's inconstancy, (I love Rosaline with all my heart, no wait, Juliet is hotter, she's the one I love with all my heart), I'm surprised you didn't draw a comparison here with Proteus. He is so smitten with Julia that life without her is not worth living, at least not until he sees Sylvia and BLAM, he betrays both his best friend and his lover and anyone else who got in his way. He was Romeo times ten. And on the subject of his inconstancy, shape-shifting, if you will, I think his name is significant. In fact, come to think of it, so is Valentine's. St Valentine, as the saint of courtly love, certainly reflects Shakespeare's Valentine.
Yes, yes, yes. It’s hilarious in many places, Proteus is everything I can’t stand about Romeo, and the names are clearly reflections of changeable versus constant phileo/friendship love. (Did I forget to talk about that in the video?) The ending is still so grating to me.
I do think the names are of utter importance, of Protheus, Valentine, Sylvia and Julia also. Sylvia stands for something of the forests, and Julia is an adaptation from Julius (as she dresses as a man). The fact that Valentine is named the leader of the outlaws, a guy whose character is to lend "the girl he likes" to his friend and almost her rapist... that's something also. And Sylvia as a sort of personification of what "nature" would value in a man, that is, dominance, gets to be with the one who's more prompt to it. The beta males value the alpha male who can "distribute" his women capital, and the "natural woman" also. Somethings can be said about Julia but it's been a time since I've read it and I didn't thought it all the way through. But, overall, I do think the play is and exageration as it is said in the video, and the purpose of it to make us uncomfortable about the solution it generates. And for the "love/friendship" duality, it chooses neither (as both in the play are not really to be trusted). Nothing really gentle on this gentlemen.
I don't know, though, if I agree with the Romeu comparison. It does make sense, but to me, more as a "negative Romeu" than a "ten times Romeu". Romeu's love for Rosaline is an escape from his melancholy, not real. When he falls in love for Juliette, he sundenly forgets her because of it. Beauty is just the spark of it, but not what keep the flames burning.
And the fact that the outlaws don't know yet how Valetine's character unfolds is not really and issue to me, it is suposed to be "unconscious", for it is nature?? I guess.
So, the end was a bummer. But the beginning was so entertaining! He was so attentive to the girl in All's well that ends well. A shame Silvia's cast aside in this one.
I've been curious as to why nobody has pointed out that by the end Julia is chosen still dressed in male clothing and the effects this has on the ending. I think the ending is not as jarring as it seems at first. Proteus' gentlemanly status reaches absolute decline, when he attempts to rape Silvia, until he sees his errors when Valentine confronts him. He has to self reflect, then chooses gentlemanlyness and friendship. Julia still dressed like a man is chosen at the same time as Proteus is choosing his friendship with Valentine. Proteus is choosing men - friendship, honour, over passionate love, bringing him back onto the right moral path, making for a happy end. All through the play Shakespeare has explored the classes and womens' roles in society. Many say this topic is not concluded because Silvia doesn't say anymore, but in the end, did Silvia have anything more to say? Personally, I think she made her point about the struggles and it comes to a climax during P's attempt. We as the audience condemn the attempt as P is the villain here, we already understand the message. The handing over of the women is symbolic and the implications on the status of women was already addressed and condemned in the text previously. I think it's probably why we have this theme in the mix at all, the play is just self aware. By pointing out this flaw it has already made a statement. Does it really need to be a plot point fixed in a time where people did not yet have a reasonable societal fix to this issue? Adding anymore vocalisation of this women's theme at the final showdown between the men would have also detracted and muddied the main theme of friendship-love vs romantic-love and the conflict between P and V. People say this is the worst comedy and unresolved but I'd say that's an uncharitable way of looking at it. That's my take anyway!
I am interested in your analysis because it echoes the themes in Measure for Measure so closely (the role/status of women). In M4M, the ending is even less resolved in that Isabel doesn't answer the duke. Whether she accepts or rejects his rather startling offer is entirely up to the director. I watched several performances where she is all but raped by Angelo and her answer to the duke is simply. . .silence. But the BBC production is much less heavy handed. The almost-rape is not as unpalatable, and though Isabel doesn't say anything at the end, she does extend her hand.
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & JOP) [Video Visualizador Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Zoc75M8Swhc/mqdefault.jpg)
True not everyone's favourite play. But yet it is by Shakespeare. We can know a lot about those times.
Definitely still interesting and complex, if jarring for a modern audience!
@@Nancenotes Hey Tim. Discovered you a little while back and love your RUclips channel. I've started on Inferno: geed-up and delving into the depths of this complex, yet oddly first-time reader accessible text. Looking forward to your Richard III insight; I've just finished teaching it to my year 9s and they've absolutely devoured it - gore 'n' all. Thought the Hamlet analysis was terrific and adore your friendly, energetic style and your ability to humanise/ contextualise these flawed characters. Future texts it would be good to hear you evaluate might be Canterbury Tales, or perhaps even Don Quixote. Hope you're keeping safe. Best Magnus (Nottingham, UK)
Hello from Brazil, thank you for the explanation.
First of all, this isn't my favorite play, no, but I still think it was laugh-out-loud funny. Launce and Crab were the best. The outlaws in the forest, Sir Eglamore -- they were all funny. The dynamics between the duke and Sir Therio were exquisite - at least in the BBC production. In fact, the duke was mesmerizing throughout, but again, I can only speak for the acting in the BBC production. The scene in which the duke, by subterfuge, exposes Valentine's plans to elope with his daughter comes to mind. (Reading it would still be great, but seeing the scene acted is even better.)
Also, remembering your objection to Romeo's inconstancy, (I love Rosaline with all my heart, no wait, Juliet is hotter, she's the one I love with all my heart), I'm surprised you didn't draw a comparison here with Proteus. He is so smitten with Julia that life without her is not worth living, at least not until he sees Sylvia and BLAM, he betrays both his best friend and his lover and anyone else who got in his way. He was Romeo times ten.
And on the subject of his inconstancy, shape-shifting, if you will, I think his name is significant. In fact, come to think of it, so is Valentine's. St Valentine, as the saint of courtly love, certainly reflects Shakespeare's Valentine.
Yes, yes, yes. It’s hilarious in many places, Proteus is everything I can’t stand about Romeo, and the names are clearly reflections of changeable versus constant phileo/friendship love. (Did I forget to talk about that in the video?) The ending is still so grating to me.
I do think the names are of utter importance, of Protheus, Valentine, Sylvia and Julia also. Sylvia stands for something of the forests, and Julia is an adaptation from Julius (as she dresses as a man). The fact that Valentine is named the leader of the outlaws, a guy whose character is to lend "the girl he likes" to his friend and almost her rapist... that's something also. And Sylvia as a sort of personification of what "nature" would value in a man, that is, dominance, gets to be with the one who's more prompt to it. The beta males value the alpha male who can "distribute" his women capital, and the "natural woman" also. Somethings can be said about Julia but it's been a time since I've read it and I didn't thought it all the way through. But, overall, I do think the play is and exageration as it is said in the video, and the purpose of it to make us uncomfortable about the solution it generates. And for the "love/friendship" duality, it chooses neither (as both in the play are not really to be trusted). Nothing really gentle on this gentlemen.
I don't know, though, if I agree with the Romeu comparison. It does make sense, but to me, more as a "negative Romeu" than a "ten times Romeu". Romeu's love for Rosaline is an escape from his melancholy, not real. When he falls in love for Juliette, he sundenly forgets her because of it. Beauty is just the spark of it, but not what keep the flames burning.
And the fact that the outlaws don't know yet how Valetine's character unfolds is not really and issue to me, it is suposed to be "unconscious", for it is nature?? I guess.
Great explanation. Thank you!
This is awesome! Thank you!
You are smart and funny🌹🙆🙋
So, the end was a bummer. But the beginning was so entertaining! He was so attentive to the girl in All's well that ends well. A shame Silvia's cast aside in this one.
I've been curious as to why nobody has pointed out that by the end Julia is chosen still dressed in male clothing and the effects this has on the ending.
I think the ending is not as jarring as it seems at first. Proteus' gentlemanly status reaches absolute decline, when he attempts to rape Silvia, until he sees his errors when Valentine confronts him. He has to self reflect, then chooses gentlemanlyness and friendship. Julia still dressed like a man is chosen at the same time as Proteus is choosing his friendship with Valentine. Proteus is choosing men - friendship, honour, over passionate love, bringing him back onto the right moral path, making for a happy end.
All through the play Shakespeare has explored the classes and womens' roles in society. Many say this topic is not concluded because Silvia doesn't say anymore, but in the end, did Silvia have anything more to say?
Personally, I think she made her point about the struggles and it comes to a climax during P's attempt. We as the audience condemn the attempt as P is the villain here, we already understand the message. The handing over of the women is symbolic and the implications on the status of women was already addressed and condemned in the text previously. I think it's probably why we have this theme in the mix at all, the play is just self aware. By pointing out this flaw it has already made a statement. Does it really need to be a plot point fixed in a time where people did not yet have a reasonable societal fix to this issue?
Adding anymore vocalisation of this women's theme at the final showdown between the men would have also detracted and muddied the main theme of friendship-love vs romantic-love and the conflict between P and V.
People say this is the worst comedy and unresolved but I'd say that's an uncharitable way of looking at it.
That's my take anyway!
A well stated examination. Thank you!
I am interested in your analysis because it echoes the themes in Measure for Measure so closely (the role/status of women). In M4M, the ending is even less resolved in that Isabel doesn't answer the duke. Whether she accepts or rejects his rather startling offer is entirely up to the director. I watched several performances where she is all but raped by Angelo and her answer to the duke is simply. . .silence. But the BBC production is much less heavy handed. The almost-rape is not as unpalatable, and though Isabel doesn't say anything at the end, she does extend her hand.
Yes, that play is wildly uncomfortable in so many ways. I’m going to get to it!
Hi Tim
Hi
Can you name 2 quotes of valentine
Do you mean just open the book and copy two out, or do you mean have I memorized any speeches from the play?
@@Nancenotes I think he means can you do his homework for him
Yep.