How Bike-Friendly is Plymouth (UK)? Safe Cycling Showdown inspired by
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- As a casual cyclist, I really enjoy videos by @Shifter_Cycling and @NotJustBikes (even if the latter makes me feel jealousy more than anything else!), and was recently inspired by a collaboration between them to compare a North American City with a Dutch city, to see how bike-friendly the two were.
As a daily commuter in Plymouth UK, I'm painfully aware of the dangers and anxiety that road cycling presents, and was curious how my city would compare to the two showcased in the aforementioned channels' videos.
You should definitely check out the two videos from NJB and Shifter, links are here:
Shifter: • Bike-friendly city sho...
Not Just Bikes: • Safe Cycling Showdown ...
Chapters:
00:00 The Premise
01:00 The Commute
10:29 The way back is much worse...
15:08 The """better""" way
22:25 The C H O N K 
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The main problem I see both on your commute and mine in Edinburgh is that nothing is connected. All the points where the cycle lanes just disappear and we’re forced to merge with cars are arguably more dangerous than just not having a lane at all.
No, it's not only non connecting cyclepaths. It is total car dominace, even the narrowest streets are two way for cars! If you want good bike infra you should make it more difficult for cars, like we do in the Netherlands. This city, and other cities in the UK are perfect to cycle, even the more hilly ones, just use E-bikes...Comparing this to my country makes me very sad, wat a waist.
Summary of this video: “and then it just ends!”
Love the bike paths end with "END". So true
As a Dutchman, this is crap. Apart from that one bit in the city center where you can cut through the roundabout, all of this is terrible. All of this looks like it has been designed by someone who hasn't used a bicycle in 20 years or so, and thinks this is acceptable. Obviously the worst one is that one near the wall, where you're spat out into 40 mph traffic, but on the whole, it's not that great either. That bit leading up the the McDonalds is a good example of good intentions badly executed. There's plenty of space for bikes, but if you can't keep up your momentum in the dedicated bicycle lane, nobody is going to use it, because bikes are really slow to get going and it takes a lot of effort. And it feels like the main question when designing all the bike lanes was "How do we leave enough space for cars?" without realizing that if you get more people onto their bikes, you don't need space for cars. They didn't realize that from an infrastructure design POV, cars aren't cars, they are people trying to get somewhere.
TTTRRRUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Notice how there's hardly bikers or pedestrians cause it's not bike or walk-friendly. How will foreigners vacations in car centric places without a driver license?
In my opinion we should always apply the same no-fatalities principle from space exploration and aviation to any modes of transport. Hopefully the needed transformation of transport to save the environment will also increase the safety for everyone.
WoW. I think you were mindblowing generous with positive points. I saw a hell of a ride and you acted as it was ok-ish. Simply every road was bad or terrible. You need a real positive mindset to ride a bike in your city.
At some point in this video I'd have assumed I took a wrong turn and ended up on a motorway I'm not supposed to be on...
Stockholm syndrome?
You have still been very generous with those points in some sections 😅
That point when you mentioned how the bike lane ends so cars can park, you made such a good point. Private property being stored on public roads, thats so weird.
this is a really common problem in Britain, cycle infrastructure is so patchy and inconsistent that it is essentially unusable
which motorists can use to shout about how people don't use cycle lanes to get them removed 😅
Him: And look there's this nice cycle lane here
Me, a Dutch person: Ahmygawd you're gonna die what are you doing on a flippin' highway get out!
My standards are: Would you put an 8 year old cycling to school by himself on that cycle lane? Would you put your grandma there? If no, it's not safe cycling infrastructure.
I don't know how my 86 year old grandma would live if we didn't have cycling lanes. She can't drive. She'd have to go into one of those horrible old people homes probably.
Seriously, I wouldn't put an expert cyclist on those 'cycle lanes'. Most of the time it doesn't look like you're meant to bike there. This is dangerous. I'm honestly amazed you haven't gotten squashed underneath one of those buses yet. At several times you are forced to cycle in the MIDDLE of fast traffic, with cars merging in and out of the highway. That's insanity.
Minus 1000 points from me for whatever that was. No way in hell I'd ever cycle on that. And it's not because I'm not a cycling person, because cycling has been my primary mode of transport for my entire life. I haven't driven a car in years and I avoid public transport and walking like the plague (for very good personal reasons that I can't just ignore). Gah how do you get anywhere?
Where I live in Austria the situation is quite similar. There is bike infrastructure, but it's not connected at all and you have to constantly switch between cycle lanes and roads. There are even some places where you have a two way cycle lane next to pretty fast road and it just ends and continues on the other side without any crossing. Ridiculously dangerous if there's any traffic at all.
From a Dutch perspective ...I don't know where to begin, man! I feel sorry for you xD
Greetings from Utrecht
It is so awesome that you entered a UK edition to the points game. It was a pleasure to see your town and see and hear commentary about infrastructure there. It does look like you have a lot of work to do to make it decent, so you could at least reach a zero in the game. My thinking before was that short bike lanes were installed to just get it going, with the idea the routes would be connected up and improved upon at some point in the future. I hope this is the case here. Thanks again for a wonderful presentation of biking in Plymouth!!
I’ve been watching Not Just Bikes a lot recently. I knew there was something I didn’t like about where I live now in Florida compared to Boston where I’m from but I couldn’t quite put a finger on it until I saw his videos and realized it was bad urban design and car-dependency. Good towns and cities are ones where you can easily walk and bike around. Car dependency creates unlivable and expensive sprawl.
We're so earnest and apologetic in our reviews of UK cycling infrastructure, I'm exactly the same, grateful for anything but knowing it could be so much better! Love NotJustBikes too 👍 Appreciate your detailed coverage on Plymouth very much, we're just a few miles away in Exeter, and about to visit Plymouth from the Drake's Trail soon. Best Wishes! 😁
4 minutes in, and i just now realised that the thing that was making me kinda uncomfortable the entire time was him using the left lane. I completely forgot that the british do that
LOL - I'd just been watching a few Dutch cycling videos and also thought it looked weird...and I'm a UK cyclist!
I know my phobia of cycling is real when watching this video brought up tears and anxiety (especially at parts I have struggled riding in the past/the downhill from north road east to the park). My dream is to learn to cycle to work (from north hill to devonport) but I am just so terrified! Wonderful video :)
North Hill to Devonport is totally doable! PCC's cycling map is a great resource for planning rides!
www.plymouth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/walkcyclemap.pdf
I'm sorry to say, but it feels more like a healthy reaction of recognising dangerous situations than a phobia...
I won't hop on a bicycle if it puts me in this kind of scary situations. I'm simply not that motivated to end up in hospital... as I don't work there.
Just found out this channel exists. Love it lol.
😀
I wonder if in the UK we should adopt a scoring system based on the five LTN1/20 principles: is the route 1:Coherent 2:Direct. 3:Safe 4: Comfortable 5: Attractive?
Some of those roads look well sketchy!
Very cool idea! Hope it catches on in other places as well and encourages a push for a change! I for one am inspired to score my own town. Even though I complain about it, it seems fairly good in comparison :)
I think you were incredibly over generous to the poor infrastructure. Painted gutters, shared paths and bits of lane taken from pavement rather than redesigning the road are not adequate and will never encourage wider cycling use. Think we are all too often in disbelief that we get any half baked, poorly executed attempt in the UK that we feel thankful. Truth is that it is woeful and often even more dangerous due to inconsistency. Thanks for the video, bonus points for the horrific murder tunnel. ;)
At the junctions where a cycle doesn't trigger the traffic light, try riding along the edge of the induction loop. I'veefound that works for me more often than not.
At 5:35 - _if_ you could have got to the advanced stop box, you'd probably found a car already sitting in it LOL
Good video Matt, came for the KSP stuff but great to see you also cycle in the South West! Infrastructure here is pretty lacking compared to Europe and even other parts of England, the parts where cycle lanes randomly terminate are my least favourite aspect - if there's going to be a path at all, why not at least end it somewhere logical like a local destination!
13:51 Isuzu Trooper RS!!! Super rare find. Dunno if any made it to the U.S. so I don't know if it's as rare here as there but wow that's super cool!!!
Thought I recognized the voice... That's the KSP dude. Lol. Great video good to see you watching same stuff I do. UK cycle infrastructure needs alot of work glad you are highlighting it.
I've been watching your KSP videos for a while and didn't know you did cycling vids! I saw you in the comments section of Shifter's latest video. I love your indignant commentary, it's very funny
I'm surprised that, instead of cat video, this one didn't just sort of end!
not a cyclist but i love seeing all of these parts of my city that i recognise.
As a Canadian who used to live in Plymouth a few years ago, it's disappointing to see how little has changed since I last lived in the city for cyclists and that Plymouth City Council still has a long ways to go. Also, that you kept saying that Calgary was in America.
My pet peeve is that some of the cycle lanes I use are covered in grit that gets thrown off the carriageway and never swept, so that you have to cycle on the edge or in the carriageway, on the pedestrian shared routes the speed limit is the pedestrians pace and accidents are your fault, couple of cycle lanes around here are ten or fifteen yards long, the safe cycle route doesn't look much safer, councils have a tendency to use cycle lanes as a way to control the cars, not for the benefit of the cyclists !
I loved the video! Excellent.
NJB added you to their playlist!
You were much more critical than NJB was about repeatedly fining similar infractions. I like that.
Also, a map or two would have been helpful but no pressure!
There were some things I didn't repeatedly bring up, such as lack of sweeping for the shared paths, but when it's an actual threat-to-life level of bad design I think it absolutely should be tallied every time!
Its so weird seeing my city in your videos ahaha, i actually think you pass me under the round about by the train station
Great video matt!
Was surprised to see a Devonian city in the not just bikes playlist.
I'm still confused how you were able to make it all the way to b&q with under 100 m/s of delta V and no gravity assists...
These videos need to played for city council members, with members of the public also attending. Unless and until those in power see actual demonstrations of how bike unfriendly most cities are, not much will change.
Fun to see that the game is spreading. Some bits looked really scary.
As far as I know, this is number 4: There is also a ride from Westervoort to Zevenaar: ruclips.net/video/mkRlCZqdo3k/видео.html
Bike routes in Utah are great-ish. I can't say the same for every other state. This video makes me feel that I should go biking more XD. The advantage IG of Western US (def. not some places on East Coast,) is that cities are more gridlike. So having bike routes is easier.
Does the hospital provide showers/locker room and storage for the bike?
Yep! Although it could be better it's still great to have a secure shed to lock my bike in
i couldnt tell you where most of the cycle lanes are in my local city,
they are so good, i always use the main roads and used to cycle daily.
When I growing up I use to cycle from the Dockyard to Southway every day..back in the 60s as did most young lads..good times and there was no cycle paths. The only time you got off your bicycle was Crown Hill...it was a bit of a killer.
Mate, I would love to see you on Strava. I head over to Devon semi regularly and would love to pinch some of your XC routes I've seen on this channel.
Haha my Strava is private since I don't wanna dox myself 😅 Drake's Trail is a good easy one. The best is the Princetown railway, itll show on good sites like Komoot
@@MattLowne🤦🏼♂️ of course. Hey everyone here's precisely where my house is...
Epic
Bruh, Calgary is in Canada. Good video on bike hazards otherwise. (Just noticed I wasn't the first to mention this)
I was looking for something along the lines of this!
You are very brave!
3:44 - the thing that could be done to improve the situation is to reduce the dependency on cars and therefore reduce the number of them.
Dual carriageway = central reservation, regardless of the number of lanes. That bridge is still a dual carriageway but has one lane in both directions separated by a central reservation
This is correct, I forgot that was the actual definition lol since almost every example has two lanes either side of the centre
That's why I started taking the bus
I was in tears watching you ride these roads, you are not local I guess? I lived in Plymouth when there was no cycling stuff at all (like 25 years) and then it appeared and it was great. Peverell is full of back roads, so no need for cycle lanes. Cycle under Manadon flyover and then you ride up that nice safe, raised road next to the horrible dual carriage way you rode up, along to Crownhill, dive under the subway into Crownhill village, under the subways in Crownhill, they are (were) great and ride up to Derriford on the right side of the main road, half way up you turn right and along the road to where Seaton Barracks pool was (not sure if you can still get access here) and down the back road past the TA building (assume it is still there) and you are at the hospital.....EASY, SAFE and FUN. Good Luck, BTW I live in a country now where we carry sidearms when we cycle outside of MTB parks! BTW, do you mean the Calgary in Canada? Yes I am a born and bred Janner and think Plymouth and surrounds is great for cycling (have you tried crossing the Cremyl ferry over to Mnt Edgecombe and doing the coastal footpaths) but may have changed a little in the 12 years since I was there last.
I've thought about this comment. Basically, it seems like your argument is "this is much better than things were", but I would counter that the current state-of-affairs is still unacceptable, and that non-motorists should absolutely demand better from their councils. The cycle under Manadon flyover has massive signs ordering cyclists to dismount and walk, and the subways around Crownhill are very windy, poorly maintained, and ultimately very slow compared to the route afforded to cars.
Regarding Traffic lights that don't work for light road users, take a tip from the motorcycles put a neodymium magnet under your bike easy to get out of broken spinning disk hard drives or online
murder tunnel XD being a lad from plymuff I can agree on all points made in this.
Thank you for uploading this video. I must say it's difficult to watch, because of the dangerous situations you're thrown into, and therefore the disregard of human life (on two wheels) by the people who own these roads. I would certainly not hop onto a bike if I was given the choice to either bike on these roads or not. I'm not that eager to end up in hospital, as I don't work there... Now I began to understand why people from the UK are sighing so much in the comment sections of NJB and BicycleDutch.
Really interesting video. Does the council have any plans to fix these problems?
lol
@@MattLowneToo This is an accurate response for the question, unfortunately
"and then it just ends"...
So the other day I found myself at the Hoofddorp train station (a small town just 1 stop away from Schiphol International Airport) and while waiting to get picked up, I paced about at the parking area a bit. There I noticed a sign indicating that the cycling path was part of the LF Waterlinieroute (waterline route). This is a 410 km long route of uninterrupted cycling infrastructure.
Now obviously, nobody commutes that entire route; it's for pleasure. But it uses existing cycling infrastructure. It goes from the middle of Noord-Holland at the Merkermeer side, around Amsterdam, around the *other* side of Utrecht all the way down to roughly the middle of Zeeland (ending in an estuary). Not to mention the LF-route that goes 610 km along the entire Dutch coast. I feel like this is the biggest difference when you look at places like Plymouth or even Calgary that have just started adding cycling infrastructure and an entire country where alternatives to car traffic has been a serious consideration for the past 50 years.
It's also a little saddening that the important lessons that could've been taken from the Netherlands were either not learned or blocked in the council, taking away much of the benefit and usefulness of the cycling infrastructure they did put it. Luckily it's not an all or nothing and hopefully the little successes encourages the council to be more bold with their next implementations.
Also, trim those hedges!
Finally, this was the weirdest Kerbal video I've seen to date :o
Oddly enough, in Hoofddorp itself I encountered an above-average number of cycle lanes that "just end", at least to Dutch standards.
@@hugobouma Do you remember roughly where that was?
Because I have to admit, I haven't cycled in Hoofddorp. I just happen to find myself there and someone was picking me up from the station by car.
Though I now have a public transportation plan that includes the use of the OV-fiets *and* there's a small possibility that I have to go to Hoofddorp for something like 6 hours. So maybe I will cycle there in the future. Who knows.
@@tiaxanderson9725 Cycling from Leiden to Amsterdam along the east side of the Hoofdvaart there were a few intersections where it wasn't clear if I was supposed to be there, I had to take the pedestrian crossing or was dumped right in the middle of car traffic. On the way back though I took the west side of the canal instead which has a state of the art "fietsstraat"-clearly that's where they expect you to go and that was perfectly pleasant to ride on, but you have to know it's there. No idea about the rest of Hoofddorp, it's probably fine. If anything it shows how spoiled we are here, when encountering a handful of spots that don't explicitly accomodate the bicycle is reason for concern. Certainly major parts of this video made me fear for my life even sitting at home watching it…
I'v driven from Hull to Lake Distract and then upto Edinburgh in the nineties. Nothing has changed since then.
I didn't die.
Critical mass in Plymouth. 1st Sunday of the month. 1.30pm Plymouth Hoe. Let's keep putting pressure on for improved bike infrastructure
From a couple minutes from drakes circus to nearly the Hospital and Marjons thats a fair trek
Also this went about as well as expected
Haha I had to do the big hill twice too to showcase both routes 😅 it's not too bad once you're used to it
I guess at least its good for you
could you do a video like this for exeter?
What bike do you have
"Calgary, in America"...I bloody wish
North America. Britains used to collectively call Canada and USA "the Americas"
I also cycle in the UK and where I live has pretty decent cycle infrastructure and the council has been making an effort in the past few years to improve the infrastructure a lot.
Despite that though the "it just ends or doesn't connect to anything" issue is still pretty noticable. Although it sucks, in a morbid kind of way it's a little comforting to know that this is a UK wide issue.
I feel like sending this to people who complain about bikes not using lanes is a good way to show the problems with British Cycle infrastructure but annoyingly most people probably wouldn't have the patience to watch a video explaining cyclist issues.
Great video though, I hope more cyclists take part in this game.
Hi Matt, another Plymothian cyclist here; Plymouth is really poor, particularly around Manadon roundabout and where the lane disappears on Tavistock road. Awful, and scary to most!
I would say the cycle lanes as executed on balance made everything worse for everyone.
The critical thing between cars and cycles if they can’t be separated is to keep the cyclist moving if possible. It’s easier for the cyclist AND easier for the cars to deal with something moving at a vaguely similar speed.
Cycling videos are so much better with commentary.
Make more videos with commentary
YOU WENT PAST MY HOUSE!
No way 😅 my grandparents live in Plymouth
You need legendary legs to cycle up those hills all day
So bizarre to find out you live in Plymouth like me after watching your ksp videos
happened to me too some time. weird how we perceive these youtubers just as bodiless entities in a methaphysical universe until we realize they live next door 😅
Same here. Cycle lanes that start and finish for no reason, some just a few metres long. WHY?
Matt I can't believe Joemama was not consulted for this video
Joemama is too much of a cyclist™ he wouldn't care about the off road bike paths 😂
@@bethanycrossley ahahahaha he says "it's true" 😂
@@bethanycrossley true story
I think painted bike lanes on an arterial might be worse than nothing! especially if it just dumps you into the road!
I thought that the blue signs where just a suggestion rather than an absolute in the UK but I guess that bridge is so narrow any sensible person would dismount anyway
Calgary is in Canada not America, other then that great video
As a retired AnE nurse I no longer cycle around Plymouth...
Too many close escapes and dangerous drivers...
ive never ridden my bike in a city before but as a mountainbiker roads scare the shit out of me so when i ride in towns i stick to pavements, i know its technically illegal but im not a speed demon and im always careful of pedestrians
i find it to be faster though because i can take a much more direct route, dont have to wait for traffic and due to being on a mountain bike few obsticals stop me
its also just more fun lol, if i was gonna ride on the road id want to have an ebike so i can play pretend motorcycle and be less vulnreble
🗿
My neighborhod doesnt even have normal sidewalks, let alone a bike path. Although to be fair there is not much traffic
Calgary is in Alberta Canada, not America…
Are there any bike friendly city's in the UK?
London is okayish, not great but better than most places. Milton Keynes is also not too bad, but it's not a very nice city in general imo.
Not really. We went in a different direction to the Netherlands in the seventies and have been paying the cost ever since. Even now the government has allocated £35 billion for road building and £245 million for bike infrastructure. We are spending half as much again on a single roundabout on the M25 as we are on cycling infrastructure.
I live near Oxford which has the highest rates of cycling in the country but even here the provision is dire. Just like Matt I need to trade off safer routes against the fact that they are twice as long and half the speed.
@@tonyedgecombe6631 yeah same here, there's nice bike rides, paths and that for recreational riding which people also walk on too with there dogs and that, but no commuter protected routes around the city or going into and out of the city.
as someone from the netherlands this looks absolutely horrible. first you cycle through a park designed to be used on foot and almost none of the bicycle lanes are protected. the cars drive realy close to you and sometimes they just end. a cyclist has to drive one the same road as a car. if a car slightly taps you you are knocked to the road and can get heavily injured. even the protected bicycle lanes are bad because of how tiny they are with no room for passing each other. video was good tho
If im honest most of the hills in Plymouth are either steep as hell or just no where near steep there is no in between 😂 i have a £3700 mountain bike and even i struggle on the hill next to Wantage Gardens that thing is painful to go up
Mountain bikes are actually terrible for road riding. Slicker tyres make a universe of difference!
@@MattLowneToo mine has fat tires its great for off roading
Okay, the car's not parking all the same direction on single side of the street is really setting me off. Like what did all these people do, drive down the street in reverse?
These are not one-way streets 😁
These are not roads but a series of potholes!
the most points Plymouth had, +2
As a native Calgarian, I feel mildly offended you called us American. Calgary, Alberta, CANADA. But yeah our bike infrastructure is kinda bad.
Canada is in North America though. I would have said USA if I meant the USA
but your continent is literally called america! 😅
@@georgplaz No mate, its called North America. It is quite unfair that the USA took the term Americans so thoroughly for just themselves but it is what it is. Americans are from the US and North Americans include people from Canada and Mexico. I don't know how the Central and South Americans feel about it, but round here the qualifier of "north" is needed to be general.
@@MattLowne True. If you had called us North Americans it would have not even been notices. Still love your channels though so don't take it too harshly. Consider it a slight education in North American English.
Ej, you should e-mail MR. Boris. He's currently being very active in that Climate debate thing. Anyway, Matt :D All your problems would be sovled if you just yelled: "brumbrumbrumbrum" all that way!
Hate to be that guy but Calgary is in Canada
America =/= USA. Ultimately though, Canada and the USA are the same when it comes to infrastructure.
@@MattLowneToo This is one of the few topics that we Canadian's are really touchy about. Saying "America =/= USA"...mmmm, no. The US has pretty much stolen the word for inhabitants of North America and claimed it as meaning only citizens of their (smaller) country. Canada's Canada. And we're pretty much willing to die on this hill. So we'd really appreciate it if you could keep the difference between us and our kinda loud and boorish (but nice!) southern neighbours in mind when talking about us. Oh, and thanks for talking about us at all. Cheers, mate.
Though Britain used to call Canada and USA "The Americas" it annoys Canadians to be called "American" Calgary is 🇨🇦
Compared to Berlin, where I live, I find your cycling lanes quite narrow.
Yooo
People seem to be driving on the wrong side of the road; -2
By law. cars shall give you 1.5 meters of space, new rules in brittain
WOW, this is probably worst cycling infrastructure I have ever seen. There are many bike lanes, but almost all are dangerous and slow. The only positive exception is the bridge where they reserved one lane out of two for cyclists, but even that ends strangely in the connecting car lane.
Spoiler for this video:
+1 there is a cycle lane
-2 the cycle lane does not last forever
Where I'm from there are no rules or cyclcing infrastructure whatsoever. squeez in when you like, and hope the Rozzers aren't there in the path you'll take
8:30 Single worst bit of "cycle infrastructure" I've seen in these +1/-2 videos.
I see Plymouth is still the same shithole it was when my family left fifty years ago. Nice cat though.
I think you're being way too generous here. Some of those so called 'cycle lanes' on those high speed main A roads was just flat out dangerous - no way would I be riding on them. Those vehicles was passing you well above 30mph, they need to be completely sectioned off.
.
Jee, this is bad!!!!