The corporations HATE discussing canon. They want to produce product ... and want you to consume product. Real discussion about canon gives them limits they hate to work around.
On a bit of a side note, this is why networks heavily preferred episodic shows with little, if any, core continuity. It theoretically allowed them to just do whatever and show the episodes in any order.
@@javonyounger5107 Yes ... and in a funny twist, this was how the original (1960s) Star Trek Series was created ... and it is definitely considered 'canon' by 99% of today's fans. Every episode started with everyone intact (no deaths) on the bridge of the Enterprise. With few exceptions, they can be viewed in any order.
The JJverse was already a alternate timeline before Spock came in because Kirk in TOS was born in Iowa not in the middle of a Space battle and at least they admitted it's a different reality Prodigy dosen't in any way break canon so probably fits in the Prime timeline.
5:38 "Because Paramount says it is. They are the custodians of the franchise. They make the rules." If Paramount chooses not to respect the fans who cherish the stories, characters, and lore of true Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT), then we have absolutely no obligation to respect their ownership of the franchise. Respect is earned, not given.
Yeah well Paramount may not be the ones making those decisions much longer, if they're even making any decisions about it at all at this point with the Skydance acquisition of Paramount going on.
This always looked like nothing more than a smooth brained appeal to authority. Anyone who doesn't believe in death of the author must accept any and all decisions from the creative in charge no matter how stupid. Even 99% of shills for garbage will have their limits, though many of them will refuse to admit it out of pride and tribalism.
I was fine with parts of S3 Picard, but even that is a stretch for me. I actually enjoyed the 2009 movie but didn’t like how it made Kirk into a punk kid plus the plot was a hot mess. The last two movies were frankly dumb, boring flashy action flicks.
I consider Star Trek after 2005 kind of the same thing as the Soviet versions of Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood, The Wizard of Oz or Treasure Island - the same things, kind of, but twisted into Political Propaganda Vehicles - and also awkward and lame.
Correction: 2009-Present = Deadly toxic radioactive waste (meaning as a dangerous substance to humans, it should be buried deep within the Earth or launched into the sun to be destroyed).
What MAJORITY consider and perceive as canon IS THE CANON, even if "company owners and studios" consider otherwise in time being... For me Star Trek ended with Enterprise TV Series too, in 2005. And I asume that for majority of fans, not occasionally viewers, it is the same. No fanbase for show, no gain for studios in future, so even a Studio have to take into consideration public opinion in a long run... as we start seeing now I hope, but it could be just last post mortem moves of the franchise too.
Right on. They were about to produce Star Trek: The Beginning, written by Erik Jendresen, and it was going to be about the inciting event that started the Romulan War. It would have been a Star Wars-like epic trilogy. It would have taken place 4 years after Enterprise. But new execs came in, nixed it, and went for JJ crap. Look up that movie on Memory Alpha. Would have been glorious! Frankly, the script is still in the vault! Bring it back!
@@willpower8061 You're right - Enterprise wasn't perfect, but I think they really cared enough to make an honest effort to respect and build upon established canon. (Which, let's face it, had holes in it, too.)
The alternate timeline option has been laid down, and the fans have latched onto it as the way to dispense with DSC and its ilk. There's no walking it back now.
thing with lower decks it is clear they were changing into alternate timeline versions. as for visual reboot bullshit characters and plots from discover and strange new worlds and soon section 31. and how hell do they expect fans to watch discovery seasons 1 and 2 and snw and then watch the original show and expect people to not to go wtf and how does robert april go from black admiral to elderly comodore.and as i said if paramount wants to pretend Discovery and SNW are canon when they can't be viewed with original fans can go enough with post enterprise trek except for lower decks,prodgry and picard season 3.many fans don't consider these are the voyages canon for many reasons and picard s3 retconed it out of exsistance with refited nx enterprise in museum
actually, they are 😅 when warcraft III came out, I was stunned by the mere "similarities" between the factions: - "humans" (which is technically incorrect, as it is an alliance of several species incl. dwarfs etc.) -- JUST LIKE THE FEDERATION! - "orcs" (which tend to be very very warlike militaristic -- JUST LIKE THE KLINGONS! - "undead" (which are refurbished zerg from starcraft) -- JUST LIKE THE BORG! - "nighelves" (which are clandestine and like to hide) -- JUST LIKE THE ROMULANS! someone pointed out to me how this star trek theme in itself was a rip off of tolkien's LotR - Federation -- JUST LIKE HUMAN KINGDOMS - Klingons -- JUST LIKE THE ORCS! - Borg -- JUST LIKE SAURON'S UNDEADS! - Romulans -- JUST LIKE ELVES! So here we go -- Klingons ARE orcs, and Romulans ARE elves -- just not in Star Trek directly 😂😂😂
@@alexejfrohlich5869 Most of the races in Star Trek are based on human cultures, not fictional ones. The Klingons are in fact a hybrid of several warlike peoples from history - primarily Mongols and Vikings, but also taking some influence from the Soviets. The Romulans can easily be seen to be primarily based on the Roman Empire with their senate, praetors and empire. The Vulcans on the other hand, are loosely based on the traditionally 'philosophical' cultures of Buddhism, Taoism and to some extent the Stoics of ancient Greece - and in fact, the Romulans separating from the Vulcans can be seen to represent the Roman culture that evolved from the Greek.
@shmeediddy. yes. I thought Search for Spock had great Klingons. As did 5 and 6. I gave Discovery just ONE watch and within minutes someone is crying. Ughh
@@feenix219 No they do not use the proper Klingons from that time period. You are wrong. The Klingons from that era were more human looking. ST: Enterprise had an episode that explained why the Klingons were once more human looking. The name of the episode is "Affliction" which was from Season 4 of ST: Enterprise.
@@CliffordBrunerThat's true but realistically about half the population by 23rd century would be smooth heads. So there should be a mix. But no we had to settle for reptilian orcs.
Dave, at this point we are willing to accept any route to de-canonize NuTrek, regardless of how stupid or silly; if it means it has to come via purple-haired animated Jack Quaid, then...make it so.
honestly, they don't even need to de-canonize it, only sideline it as an other parallel universe and we're fine! hell, this even opens up peace between trekkies and nutrekkers -- they like their nu? fine, my original timeline is NOT affected by it, have fun!
I never thought it was actually de-canonized. Only that it was finally confirmed to be set in a different universe than the prime universe (which anyone with half a brain should have figured out when watching the very first episode.) It's something they should have done in the first place, like JJverse Trek.
@@beingsshepherd I’m not a fan of the “war on terror,” but get a grip. There’s always a war some leader is dragging us into. That didn’t just start with Bush.
I have read here, “Canon is what the IP holder says it is” and that “canon is what is on the screen.” While that may be true, read the following in Vader-voice; Don’t underestimate the power of the fandom. The ability to destroy a franchise is insignificant next to the power of the consumers who actually pay (or decide not to pay) for the product.
Seriously. So if canon is “what is seen on screen,” and also “what the IP holder says it is,” then what happens when the IP holder says we have to accept a comic book or radio show as canon? What happens when the IP starts going into public domain? I say the studio stopped actually caring about canon in 2009.
@@baahcusegamer4530 Actually, according to Orci and Kurtzman, we already should accept a comic book “as canon.” Frankly, I personally don’t accept anything either f those jacks have been involved in as “canon,” but to each his own.
I wrote a long paragraph with examples, tied in star wars, gave character examples and yet this bottom lines what a bunch of people are trying to say. Just because the naked emperor says he has cloths doesn't mean he isn't naked.
The creator of Lower Decks himself said LD is canon, as per Paramount. But of all this moot because SunDance is rumoured to want to erase ALL NewTrek, sack Kurtzman, and literally start again. They are not happy at all.
@@DS2CV But he and D.C. Fontana considered at one time that the 1973 Animated Series was a genuine continuation of the live-action TOS, and represented the never made 4th and 5th seasons.
someday a good steward of the property will film an official show or movie where good temporal agents consign them to negated timelines after revealing that incursions led to the saving of young burnham in the forge and to preserving the narada in the fight against the kelvin.
"So, what is with the Klingons? Remember, in the day They looked like Puerto Ricans and they dressed in gold lamé; But now they look like heavy metal rockers from the dead-- With leather pants and frizzy hair and lobsters on their heads." --Voltaire, _The U.S.S. Make-Shit-Up_
The only problem with your argument about those Klingons from Discovery being a different variant is that in Discovery, we went to Qo'nos and ALL the Klingons looked the same there too. So, that argument is invalid.
@@TheDaveCullenShowTrue. That is the reason many of us dislike all of New trek. The producers don't care what we think and are only making it for themselves.
@TheDaveCullenShow I would wait to see what Sky Dance does with Trek. All the talk I keep hearing is that they aren't fans of Kurtzman Trek and canceled several projects that weren't too far in development. If true, it's very possible they may decanonize all of Kurtzman Trek and start anew.
to steelman daves argument with as little as weve seen of Qo'onos and its in habitants were some alien to land on earth and see just as little and see as few of its inhabitants there are entire ethnicities of humans they would know nothing about. the real question is does the variety of morphology of klingons support the morphology of stds klingorks. i would say no if simply for the differences in the number of nostrils and um, other "appendages". we dont see something like it in the klingons of real star trek.
I envy you! I watched the 3 JJ films, 3 seasons of Discovery, 3 seasons of Picard and the first few episode of Lower Decks. All of it was garbage, I wish I could literally erase it from my mind. I'm currently doing a rewatch of TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first 6 films as a mental cleansing.
In the DS9 Tribbles episode where they go back in time to the original Trek episode Dax (who looked awesome in the 60s miniskirt uniform, btw) noted how the Klingons looked different and asks Worf what happened. All he says _"...we don't like to talk about it."_
Yep, and it was pretty much known that the 60s Klingons looked like they looked because of budget. Nobody cared, and Worf's line was a harmless little metajoke.
I remember in Star Trek enterprise how they dedicated an entire episode to explain why some Klingons in OTS looked much more human. How they were genetically altered due to some virus that was meant to make them Klingon augments.
And it was the most pointless and unnecessary episode that was ever written. Of any tv show. It should never have happened. They always had the ridges.
And if you want to know why people going on about it is a good thing. Well okay Dave, I guess I can lead you to the answer. If enough people collectively state "this is confirmation of STD not being canon" then no amount of what Paramount and any other person says will make it matter TO THE PEOPLE WATCHING THE SHOWS. It will be a point of saying something like "well the entire run of Capaldi and beyond is just a delusion in the mind of the Doctor as he dies while taking out all the biggest enemies he's ever faced while on Trenzaol. The Doctor died that day. End of " and then, poof. Everything post Smith is now just not important and you can walk away from it with a satisfying statement of "The Doctor died saving the universe one last time." and have it matter more to THE FANS than anything else. For a guy who repeatedly beats the drum of "for the fans" you're missing that massive clue.
The only thing that really matters at this point is what is canon in our own minds. In my mind, everything starting with 2009 onwards is fan fiction...and not great fan fiction either.
Yes! I watched just the first JJ trailer and lens flair and I just said NO, THAT is not ST. I was later subjected to actually watching them: did not change my mind. It made me physically sick
If a subsequent work bastardizes the original, then it cannot be considered cannon, even if it was made by the author himself. Stop toIerating the destruction of culture.
even if they're saying that STD is set in an alternate reality or a parallel universe, that doesn't mean it's not canon. and i'm saying that as someone who absolutely cannot stand Kurtzman DRECK. but moving it to an alternate/parallel reality isn't the same as decanonizing it. because these alternate realities and parallel universes are canon in STAR TREK. so whatever happens there is also canon. it's like the MCU's multiverse. anything that happens in one of those universes is canon in the multiverse. and it's the same with STAR TREK. i don't like it, but that's the fact of the matter. if they really want to decanonize it, they have to completely ignore it. as long as they acknowledge it in any multiversal capacity within the series, it's still canon in the multiverse.
@@baahcusegamer4530 in DALLAS, it's canon that Bobby Ewing had a very long dream. the dream is still canon. it's the exact same principle. just because something was a dream or happened in a parallel universe, that doesn't mean it's decanonized. the dream still happened as a dream in canon.
@@KILRtv in my opinion, we give these things too much legitimacy by saying they take place in an alternate universe. to me, they're completely non-canonical, not even in any parallel universe :)
Technically. But once you remove it from the main canonical universe it becomes basically becomes like apocripha (to continue the religious metaphor). It's stuff that you can you look at, but it doesn't really matter.
No. None of the new garbage is canon. And when we dont treat it as such, when we ignore it, WE decide that its not canon and they have to abide by that to not lose money, making it non canon. Allowing them to decide what is canon will ONLY result in us getting slop for entertainment like we are getting with Star Wars, Star Trek and other franchises. We deserve better.
I admit I enjoyed Lower Decks...but I NEVER viewed it as any kind of canon, but as a comedy/parody that's "officially endorsed" ... i.e. it's what "The Orville" was pitched as. As that, it was mostly enjoyable.
A majority of fans don’t like STD and SNW, and canon matters to the lore and continuation of an IP. But because they have screwed with it so much they lost so much support and money.. Star Trek has been dead for a long time and so many want it to come back to form.
Really, they should have started off with SNW. The "thing they don't talk about" in the pilot, could just as easily be Talos 4 instead of the STD events.
"Canon is whatever is on the screen"..I would beg to differ. Remember Highlander 2? it was ignored and removed from canon. Just because some idiot adds a visual cue, it doesnt make it canon.
Some things to note: - It is rumored that Skydance does not like Kurtzman and may fire him sometime in 2025. They want to start Star Trek all over again fresh. This form of retcon/multi-universe might have been pushed by Skydance as part of something bigger. The Section 31 movie has already been written as a failure, and the lead actress thinks it's going to damage her movie career. Again, that's all rumor. - Star Trek merch sales dropped by a huge amount (around 80%) in one year. - Skydance tried to cancel the production of The Academy series, but they inherited Paramount a little too late to halt it. Skydance already canceled the Halo series. - I think most individuals already knew that STD was pretty much an alternate universe before LD dropped the final episode. - Keep in mind that Paramount bankrupted itself +$15 Billion, and Skydance knows this. No matter what, the multiverse is the only thing Skydance can really do at this point, as it would make the upcoming Academy series (set after STD) completely pointless for the audience. In other words, there is no way they'll say that it's not canon because it would be an even more massive profit loss on their part.
I really don't think that anything they do, remove, change... Is going to revive this franchise. It's been dead from the first lens flair, modern update, garbage. We got an end in the 3rd season of Picard. That season made me cry both tears of joy and tears of loss because I knew that was it. It's over 😢😢
"We introduced a foreign organism into our environment to space-magic the environment, rather than doing it ourselves... what was that yoy said about Cane Toads in Australia or Stoata 'n Ferrets in New Zealand again?" ~ Season 2 of Picard
Hate to break it to you, Dave, but as franchise fans and certified (certifiable? :P) nerds, we ARE the "AKTUALY, SIR" crowd, because we're the only ones that know the franchise in-depth enough to do so... XD
Sadly what all these recent tweeks and messing with lore across media for things we once loved and cherished not only damages what has come before but actively stops us from investing into new IPs and media because everything is available for desecration so what’s the point
What we NEED is post DS9/VOY Star Trek. Like another 80yrs in the future. Rebooting, rehashing, reinventing, and retconning is WAY over done at this point. It's like "zombies" as a genre. It's time to just stop. Nobody should be allowed to do any prequel or multi-verse crap (as a plot bandage) ever again.
I consider the Bad Reboot and Krapsman Trek sewage to be very similar to that season of Dallas in which Bobby Ewing was killed with the following season revealing that the previous season had been just a dream. I see Bad Reboot and Krapsman Trek to have also been just a dream...a horrific nightmare, to be specific...from which we shall all eventually awake...and what a joyous day that shall be!
I've been thinking the same. Hopefully the Shatster will emerge from the shower at some point, muttering something about "They're not the pussies I meant" 😊
That's the critical point most people are missing. It IS canon, it's just not part of the Prime timeline, they introduced a more convoluted multiverse. STD is still a dumpster fire, and flaming hot garbage in the dumpster.
To me, discovery was already shown as not being canon, not least of which was because discovery just makes no sense at all being prime timeline, but the constitution class we see in Picard is much closer modelled off the original series version than strange new worlds, the countless lore discrepancies in discovery itself, the aesthetic, all of it. Also, the episode you're talking about you're kinda downplaying what actually happened. The episode has the anomaly change things into alternate reality versions of themselves. The Klingon ships themselves change into ugly discovery ships. Not just the Klingons themselves. Sovereign ships can exist in different timelines, nobody is saying they can't, but the implication here is obvious all the same. Yes it was a visual gag, but it opens the door wide for the dies that some series simply are in slightly alternate timelines
Does anyone recall that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Worf was jumping between different realities? There was that version of the Enterprise from the Borg victory reality-Riker was in tears, swore they’d never return, and then started firing on Worf’s shuttle. That’s the Discovery timeline.
In my head Canon, that universe was the one where the First Contact Borg succeeded, and Borg Earth from that movie and Riker being unable to defeat them in a lost Alpha Quadrant overrun by the Borg alternate reality are two similar scenarios for ACTUAL accurate fan fiction (or at the very least, further exploration). Then again, you also had that Galaxy dreadnought alternate reality and the one where Picard was stabbed during his Academy days, etc.
Canon is ultimately what the consumers are willing to accept, meaning that which consumers are willing to watch and that which generates money for the production company.
The biggest problem with the Paramount / CBS et al, was there intolerance for fan films. They saw it as copyright infringements when they should have seen it for what it was, a hunger by the audience for more Star Trek series that followed the traditional franchise. It would be nice if they actually did a series post Voyager timeline. They could do nods back to any and all of the former series. They could complete or expand story arcs from former series much like DS9(S05E06) "Trials and Tribble-ations" which expanded on the TOS episode (S02E15) "Troubles with Tribbles". That episode is probably one of the best of all the series. Fans loved it, IMDB has it rated 9.3/10 which is the highest of any DS9 episode. Worse yet studios destroyed what long time fans loved about the franchise by trying to be progressive.
that wasnt a "not canon" field it was a "version from another universe" field that did the transformation. In another universe the Cerritos is a powerful sovereign variant and in yet another universe klingons look like crap...
As Doomcock says: Without respect, We reject. And that's the crux of the matter, Abrams and Kurtzman had no respect whatsoever for the established fan base. Now, behold the consequences.
It’s science fiction so STD and LD and SNW can easily be explained as being in alternate timelines. I even consider Picard to be in an alternate timeline. The problem with these shows is a LOT of people dislike the stories and the way some classic characters are treated. If the shows had had better storytelling I don’t think the canon/noncanon argument would be all that strident.
I really don't want to be that guy, but I've got to bring up the logical fallacy of SNW being a Prequel to TOS, and it has entirely to do with the Constitution class and its design in STD/SNW. From what I've been able to gather, the Connie in STD/SNW is 427.5 meters in length, now that's just from taking the Original Connie's 285-something meter length and increasing it by strictly 50%, apparently John Eaves said it was MORE than 50% but I could not find out how much. Let's just leave it at that and move onto my next point. So you're telling me, that after Christopher Pike's 5 year mission came to an end, or when he was exposed to that Delta radiation that left him crippled, whichever happened first, Starfleet Command said to itself, hey, you know what would be a great idea? Let's do a complete and total refit of the Constitution class and make it smaller. Lets reduce its capabilities in every single way imaginable from what it's capable of right now. From an in universe perspective, that kind of thinking is incredibly counter intuitive/productive. Don't about anyone else but this sounds a lot like those memes where someone brings up something either absolutely brilliant, or says no, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, before that person gets thrown out the office window over it. I may not know everything about Star Trek, but I know enough to point out an inconsistency like that. As the Vulcans would say, that is highly illogical. Especially given how often the Enterprise came into conflict with the Klingons in TOS. If Kirk had had the STD/SNW style Connie, he'd have just walked all over the Klingons and the Romulans and the Gorn. Now I know that as technology advances tech gets bigger at some points and smaller at others. But remember that line by the Head of Starfleet in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock. "Jim the Enterprise is 20 years old." The Enterprise of that time, even with the refit, still had very much the same keel/skeletal structure. To take the STD/SNW Constitution down from its 427.5 meters to the TOS 285-something meters... I've seen a length of 285 to 289 meters for the TOS Connie, that would require removing 142.5 meters from the ship, which would mean, and I'm no engineer here, but even I can figure out that would require an entire redesign of the ships keel/skeletal structure. It'd be easier to just build an entirely different ship from the ground up than to undertake a redesign and refit of that nature. The redesign/refit of the Connie between TOS and TMP only added about 16 to 20 meters to its overall length, and that was mostly to just accommodate the new vertical warp core design and the repositioning of the torpedo launchers from the saucer to the neck/engineering hull. I have a really, REALLY hard time believing STD/SNW is supposed to be a prequel to TOS with the leap of logic that would require.
I can accept that some of SNW (story wise) can fit into pre TOS era canon, but the visuals of the ship, no. I can accept the TOS uniforms being adopted earlier than TOS, but that’s it. T’Pring shouldn’t have been in the series and some of the capabilities of the SNW transporters were ridiculous, and apparently there’s two or more species of Gorn somehow. Also Kirk and crew were the first to discover the mirror universe, unlike STD trying to get us to believe otherwise.
You took the time to explain but one of the zillions of canon violations Abrams and Kurtzman have made and why nothing of this crap is canon. They don’t even try to make it make sense because they don’t actually care.
Folks this isn’t just a Star Trek issue. It’s the majority of franchises they are kept going because of the cash cow. Star Wars, Star Trek, Naruto, Dragonball, heck Even NCIS origins lol.
You really aren't the only one with your opinions on Star Trek and Lower Decks and what not. I LIKE Lower Decks, but I only to a fraction think of Star Trek when I watch the show. It's too much chaos for me.
No, Canon isn't "whatever is on screen" Dave. Canon is what Canon is. It's why people insult Voyager so much for their infinite replicators on torpedos and shuttles. Just because the series was bad at continuity doesn't mean you forget that ships have a limited supply of things.
@@CubanWriter No, he's not He's on his knees gobbling the co ck of Paramount and then saying "but I didnt like it" There was no spore drive in the Federation and a haphazard retcon doesn't fix things after it was revealed it breaks the entire continuity of Star Trek. Just like there's no Red Matter that can destroy a planet or transwarp beaming or anything from the Arbroo movies. they are Fan Fiction levels of bad writing and therefore non-canon to Star Trek. Just because Paramount says they are doesn't mean it makes sense. All it means is that it's bad writing development and application from start to finish. Just like Voyager.
@@CubanWriter No, he's not He's on his knees gobbling the cck of Paramount and then saying "but I didnt like it" There was no spore drive in the Federation and a haphazard retcon doesn't fix things after it was revealed it breaks the entire continuity of Star Trek. Just like there's no Red Matter that can destroy a planet or transwarp beaming or anything from the Arbroo movies. they are Fan Fiction levels of bad writing and therefore non-canon to Star Trek. Just because Paramount says they are doesn't mean it makes sense. All it means is that it's bad writing development and application from start to finish. Just like Voyager.
@@UncensoredScionyeah, being bad doesn't make something non canon. Like you, I choose to ignore things that are nonsensical and bad. But unlike you, I don't pretend that my preferences define canon. I also don't accuse people of rooster eating because they choose to acknowledge reality.
Discovery, new world, lower decks, and picard are not canon. Fool yourself if you want, but none of those are canon Likewise, nothing disney has done is canon
How can it be? It does such ridiculous stuff, that it would make no elsense for them to happen in the world of Star Trek as we know it. Take the plethora of Harry Kim's. It literally would mean that he doesn't even get promoted to Lt. after returning home in almost every time line. And they are all willing to risk the entire universe in a fit of jealousy. That is an in-joke, nothing more. Definitely not a realistic plot point.
@@BlueLightning12 That is an asinine and ludicrous ultimatum and false equivalency. It isn't a choice between lower decks and std being canon.... lower dicks didn't even decanonize std, it just said it's an alternate reality. an Alt Reality WITHIN the canon of trek. NEITHER of those abortions of tv are canon.
If I remember right there was a Lower Decks crossover episode in Strange New Worlds. That makes the 3 shows all connected. That may be where the LD klingons came from but whether or not they are all in the same universe I have no idea. Since that showed up it makes me think so.
The creator/show runner said He did it on purpose to de-canonize what he thought was a mistake but that he doesn't assume that his decision will stand if the the studio changes their mind about allowing the change.
This illustrates one of the problems all Kurtzman Trek has - no creative leadership. Everyone is doing whatever they want. It is crazy that those creators are essentially fighting against each other within the ST story.
There was another showrunner that said DISC is STILL canon, despite what happened in Lower Decks. He basically said people are misinterpreting what happened in that scene in Lower Decks.
You are half right. Canon doesn't mean what's on screen though, it means what's considered as "what happened", but you are right that alternative universes are canon. This is one reason Disney have done poorly with Star Wars, not making sure things line up with canon BUT setting it in the same universe.
@@ianramsey101Once the original storyteller dies, canon is whatever the majority say it is and accepts. Corporations and modern copyright laws be damned!
4:15 - With respect I believe you have missed the point of this moment. It's not that the Cerritos was randomly transformed into a different class. It's that the Cerritos took on the characteristics of a Cerritos from a different reality. In that different reality it is a Sovereign class ship. Likewise with the Klingon it's not that he was randomly transformed into a different race that exists in this universe, it's that he became an alternate reality version of himself. In that alternate reality he IS a Klingorc, because in that alternate reality that's just how Klingons look. And rather than being canon vs non-canon, I think want most people are trying to say is that STD/SNW are not a part of the Prime-Timeline. Of course rather than saying this PROVES that STD and SNW are now no longer canon, I would argue that the writers are trying to leave the door open to taking things that way. And honestly that's the way it needs to go. STD and SNW have from there get go been so wildly different from the rest of Trek that they should have just kicked things off by saying these events are taking place in a universes that balances on a knifes edge between becoming like our universe or falling into the totalitarian government from Mirror, Mirror.
Side note: Yes I know that later in the episode we see a proto-klingon, but again it's not that the klingon was randomly transformed into some other Klingon subspecies that exists in the prime timeline, but that in an alternate timeline that's what he is (quite possibly because Picard and Data failed to contain the pathogen that was causing everyone to regress and it spread across the universe)
Partially related question - Given in the last episode of Star Trek Enterprise Riker was running the whole thing as a holodeck program, was Enterprise ever part of the canon?
I agree you can't really take this particular "de-canoning" seriously, not least with it just tying things in further knots. Lower Decks appeared in Strange New Worlds, and that has incontrovertible links to STD. So you can't nuke STD without also the rest too, much like you can't do that with Voyager without also nuking DS9 & TNG. It needs someone very high in Paramount/CBS to outright say if something like this has happened, and not leave it open to ambiguity.
Fandoms became weaponized like everything else especially when Kurtzman said he intended to use the IP as a platform for touting his political narratives. That happened across the board in all media. So I think that can DEcanonize any of the newer Trek creations is *INTENT* malicious or otherwise.
I think it has been clearly said in Lower Decks final episode, that the ship has been transformed into counterparts of itself from other quantum realities / parallel universes. Therefore its very clear to me, that Disco is of course still canon but in another timeline/quantum reality/parallel universe... Whatever you wanna call it. For me it was that day from day one of Discos start. There was never another possibility, because of the clearly visible differences in every single element of this Disco-Universe.
Maybe they should do like Cartoon Network did with "Ben 10." They established that each series is it's own timeline. It eliminates inconsistencies or the need for convoluted retcons.
The "Lower Decks" writer/showrunner was very clear that it makes STD an alternate reality, not non-canon, but NOT prime. The whole point he was making that this takes STD out of the prime timeline/reality. So, now it's just another alternate reality, not in the prime universe/timeline. The "beam" was an alternate reality beam after-all. He covered it in an interview and was very cheeky about it, but the intent is clear.
At first I was really disappointed by Dave Cullen saying he doesn't have much time to do these videos anymore. Part way through, I realized how valuable his insights on this topic are. I thank you for taking the time you did to share this as soon as you did.
The difference between those "mirror universe" episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager is that not one of them was then turned into a fully fledged, bona fide tv series of its own masquerading as canon, unlike STD. They were branching storylines that either went nowhere, had their own conclusive ending, or were merely speculative and open-ended (eg TNG, "Conspiracy").
Beautifully stated. Some of those alternate realities only existed in those episodes, and were then "undone" when certain actions were taken, like the Enterprise-C episode. The only way to revisit them is time travel, a memory flashback or a fleshing out of the original story from the POV of those altered characters in the alternate timeline, like how they fleshed out the history of the Mirror Universe, or followed a specific character and the different world the character inhabits compared to the life the Prime universe version of that character lived (like Kira's dead lover barely surviving in the Mirror Universe, or "Smiley" O'Brien from Mirror Universe).
If Trekkies simply ignore the nonsense after ENT, then it doesn't count. Paramount can call whatever they want cannon, if we don't indulge their delusions it holds no power.
Let me be 100% clear about this. Nothing Star Trek produced after 2004 is canon. At any point since then Paramount could have made Trek but didn't want to, CBS did, so Paramount licenced Star Trek to them under certain conditions. Licenced IPs are not canon, it is a licence to produced your own stories based upon the IP you're licencing. Canonical Star Trek is all that which was produced between 1964 and 2004. Anything produced by Secret Hideout or Bad Robot is a licenced product. I realise CBS and Paramount remerged but all that has changed is that Paramount now own both the licence and the original IP. STD was simply removed from the licence's continuity.
I didn't mind any of the Klingon designs. Canon is anything that the majority of the interacting participants can accept by coherently weave together into a unity. Each person can decide.
I doubt very much anyone at Paramount has a clue or even cares about such details in the ST universe, hence why all the changes (including the Klingons version in Into Darkness) are irrelevant to Paramount or anyone involved in the productions. They just don't give a sh*t if something breaks cannon or not, because they don't understand it or care about it.
The corporations HATE discussing canon. They want to produce product ... and want you to consume product. Real discussion about canon gives them limits they hate to work around.
>... and want you to consume product.
VERYYY COOOL!
On a bit of a side note, this is why networks heavily preferred episodic shows with little, if any, core continuity. It theoretically allowed them to just do whatever and show the episodes in any order.
Costs them more money to produce since they can't churn crap out
@@javonyounger5107 Yes ... and in a funny twist, this was how the original (1960s) Star Trek Series was created ... and it is definitely considered 'canon' by 99% of today's fans. Every episode started with everyone intact (no deaths) on the bridge of the Enterprise. With few exceptions, they can be viewed in any order.
The only product they want to produce is "the message".
The Drinker cut through it by saying everything past 2009 should be thrown down the pan as not Star Trek.
Works for this Trekkie.
If it was still just Disco and Picard I'd agree, but SNW, Prodigy, and LD are great
The JJverse was already a alternate timeline before Spock came in because Kirk in TOS was born in Iowa not in the middle of a Space battle and at least they admitted it's a different reality
Prodigy dosen't in any way break canon so probably fits in the Prime timeline.
@@jceggbert5 Ugh...reevaluate your life.
Except Prodigy!
@@jceggbert5 SNW is awful. It is easily the most disappointing Trek series.
Nothing Kurtzman has ever done is canon.
Yes! Kurztman makes nothing that is qualified as canon.
Nothing after Enterprise is canon. I would rather accept the Star Trek Online continuation than anything the TV shows and movies have done.
Whether Star Trek, Transformers, or Spider Man. Screw Kurtzmann.
Nothing he has ever done has been good
@@Obssy I don't know about that. Picard Season Three is good.
5:38 "Because Paramount says it is. They are the custodians of the franchise. They make the rules." If Paramount chooses not to respect the fans who cherish the stories, characters, and lore of true Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT), then we have absolutely no obligation to respect their ownership of the franchise. Respect is earned, not given.
Yeah well Paramount may not be the ones making those decisions much longer, if they're even making any decisions about it at all at this point with the Skydance acquisition of Paramount going on.
Preach it, brother! 🙏
Paramount's opinion is no longer relevant.
This ☝🏻💯
This always looked like nothing more than a smooth brained appeal to authority. Anyone who doesn't believe in death of the author must accept any and all decisions from the creative in charge no matter how stupid. Even 99% of shills for garbage will have their limits, though many of them will refuse to admit it out of pride and tribalism.
Star Trek 1966-2005
Nothing else is canon
I was fine with parts of S3 Picard, but even that is a stretch for me. I actually enjoyed the 2009 movie but didn’t like how it made Kirk into a punk kid plus the plot was a hot mess. The last two movies were frankly dumb, boring flashy action flicks.
@@baahcusegamer4530 S3 of Picard was the only one I count. That was actually pretty good.
@@baahcusegamer4530 It was still mostly crap except for when they brought back the Enterprise.
I consider Star Trek after 2005 kind of the same thing as the Soviet versions of Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood, The Wizard of Oz or Treasure Island - the same things, kind of, but twisted into Political Propaganda Vehicles - and also awkward and lame.
Season 3 of Picard is the only NuTrek that has anything to do with the real Trek.
As Montgomery Scott might say of Spock's Sister and Spore Drive.
"Leave them where they belong....NON-EXSISTENCE!!"
Scotty would say "NAE!" (Nothing After Enterprise)
Actually, Chekov said that.
1966-2005 = Canon
2009-Present = Faecal matter
That's an insult to faecal matter, as that at least can be converted to bio fuel and be useful.
What did faecal matter do to you that would spur you to insult it like that?
@@KiltedCritic It's a vital part of the ecosystem. STD is slop.
@@baahcusegamer4530 Faerie Fecal Matter?
Correction: 2009-Present = Deadly toxic radioactive waste (meaning as a dangerous substance to humans, it should be buried deep within the Earth or launched into the sun to be destroyed).
None of the new garbage should be considered canon.
Here! Here!
Except Prodigy!😅
the Prime timeline is officially not canon, they retconned all of it out the air lock not too long ago.
This is exactly why I've started calling it '...INO,' so 'STINO," 'SWINO,' 'LOTRINO,' etc.
What MAJORITY consider and perceive as canon IS THE CANON, even if "company owners and studios" consider otherwise in time being... For me Star Trek ended with Enterprise TV Series too, in 2005. And I asume that for majority of fans, not occasionally viewers, it is the same. No fanbase for show, no gain for studios in future, so even a Studio have to take into consideration public opinion in a long run... as we start seeing now I hope, but it could be just last post mortem moves of the franchise too.
To me, the Nothing Bad Reboot did is canon. TOS through Enterprise is enough for me.
Right on. They were about to produce Star Trek: The Beginning, written by Erik Jendresen, and it was going to be about the inciting event that started the Romulan War. It would have been a Star Wars-like epic trilogy. It would have taken place 4 years after Enterprise. But new execs came in, nixed it, and went for JJ crap. Look up that movie on Memory Alpha. Would have been glorious! Frankly, the script is still in the vault! Bring it back!
Enterprise was actually a decent show, however its not very accurate if trying to slot it into Roddenberry canon.
@@willpower8061
Enterprise is a result of the events of "First Contact"
@@willpower8061 You're right - Enterprise wasn't perfect, but I think they really cared enough to make an honest effort to respect and build upon established canon. (Which, let's face it, had holes in it, too.)
@@ChrisS-no3ft That could be great, but I"m content to wait until they bring in the right people who know and understand and care what Star Trek is.
The alternate timeline option has been laid down, and the fans have latched onto it as the way to dispense with DSC and its ilk. There's no walking it back now.
Good to see the Captain himself here commenting!
What wishful thinking nonsense.
thing with lower decks it is clear they were changing into alternate timeline versions. as for visual reboot bullshit characters and plots from discover and strange new worlds and soon section 31. and how hell do they expect fans to watch discovery seasons 1 and 2 and snw and then watch the original show and expect people to not to go wtf and how does robert april go from black admiral to elderly comodore.and as i said if paramount wants to pretend Discovery and SNW are canon when they can't be viewed with original fans can go enough with post enterprise trek except for lower decks,prodgry and picard season 3.many fans don't consider these are the voyages canon for many reasons and picard s3 retconed it out of exsistance with refited nx enterprise in museum
Klingons are not Orcs and Romulans are not Elves. End of story.
actually, they are 😅
when warcraft III came out, I was stunned by the mere "similarities" between the factions:
- "humans" (which is technically incorrect, as it is an alliance of several species incl. dwarfs etc.) -- JUST LIKE THE FEDERATION!
- "orcs" (which tend to be very very warlike militaristic -- JUST LIKE THE KLINGONS!
- "undead" (which are refurbished zerg from starcraft) -- JUST LIKE THE BORG!
- "nighelves" (which are clandestine and like to hide) -- JUST LIKE THE ROMULANS!
someone pointed out to me how this star trek theme in itself was a rip off of tolkien's LotR
- Federation -- JUST LIKE HUMAN KINGDOMS
- Klingons -- JUST LIKE THE ORCS!
- Borg -- JUST LIKE SAURON'S UNDEADS!
- Romulans -- JUST LIKE ELVES!
So here we go -- Klingons ARE orcs, and Romulans ARE elves -- just not in Star Trek directly 😂😂😂
@alexejfrohlich5869
The Klingons are Soviets.
The Romulans are Chicoms.
@@alexejfrohlich5869 Most of the races in Star Trek are based on human cultures, not fictional ones. The Klingons are in fact a hybrid of several warlike peoples from history - primarily Mongols and Vikings, but also taking some influence from the Soviets. The Romulans can easily be seen to be primarily based on the Roman Empire with their senate, praetors and empire. The Vulcans on the other hand, are loosely based on the traditionally 'philosophical' cultures of Buddhism, Taoism and to some extent the Stoics of ancient Greece - and in fact, the Romulans separating from the Vulcans can be seen to represent the Roman culture that evolved from the Greek.
We havent seen a real Klingon since Enterprise ended
No kidding. But we've seen alot of klingons in TMP movies.
@shmeediddy. yes. I thought Search for Spock had great Klingons. As did 5 and 6. I gave Discovery just ONE watch and within minutes someone is crying. Ughh
Strange New world uses the proper Klingons.
@@feenix219 No they do not use the proper Klingons from that time period. You are wrong. The Klingons from that era were more human looking. ST: Enterprise had an episode that explained why the Klingons were once more human looking. The name of the episode is "Affliction" which was from Season 4 of ST: Enterprise.
@@CliffordBrunerThat's true but realistically about half the population by 23rd century would be smooth heads. So there should be a mix. But no we had to settle for reptilian orcs.
Throw it all out. Strange new worlds, lower decks, discovery, and picard.
Unfortunately, we need Lower Decks to remain canon to Prime Timeline to keep everything infected by ST:D out of it.
Preach. All alt dimension or fever dream.
@@26th_Primarch But that presents a paradox since Lower Decks, with that "cross-over" episode, established itself in the same timeline as SNW.
We all already knew STD wasn't canon.
Look at the name.... 🤔 Star Trek caught it's own STD
That's not what LD was saying.
Dave, at this point we are willing to accept any route to de-canonize NuTrek, regardless of how stupid or silly; if it means it has to come via purple-haired animated Jack Quaid, then...make it so.
honestly, they don't even need to de-canonize it, only sideline it as an other parallel universe and we're fine! hell, this even opens up peace between trekkies and nutrekkers -- they like their nu? fine, my original timeline is NOT affected by it, have fun!
I never thought it was actually de-canonized. Only that it was finally confirmed to be set in a different universe than the prime universe (which anyone with half a brain should have figured out when watching the very first episode.) It's something they should have done in the first place, like JJverse Trek.
Enterprise even explained how Klingons lost their ridges.
by switching from ruffles to pringles (lol)
good lord, Star Trek is in such a dire place right now
Last 15+ years!
The optimism died with the reelection of Bush & Blair; vindicating their xenophobic _War on Terror._
@@beingsshepherd I’m not a fan of the “war on terror,” but get a grip. There’s always a war some leader is dragging us into. That didn’t just start with Bush.
I have read here, “Canon is what the IP holder says it is” and that “canon is what is on the screen.” While that may be true, read the following in Vader-voice; Don’t underestimate the power of the fandom. The ability to destroy a franchise is insignificant next to the power of the consumers who actually pay (or decide not to pay) for the product.
Seriously. So if canon is “what is seen on screen,” and also “what the IP holder says it is,” then what happens when the IP holder says we have to accept a comic book or radio show as canon? What happens when the IP starts going into public domain? I say the studio stopped actually caring about canon in 2009.
The random is strong in this one.
@@jasonschlierman412I did say *may* be true. Not that it definitely is true.
@@baahcusegamer4530 Actually, according to Orci and Kurtzman, we already should accept a comic book “as canon.” Frankly, I personally don’t accept anything either f those jacks have been involved in as “canon,” but to each his own.
"Officially" canon... If the Emperor wears no clothes, but says he is wearing clothes... he's still naked. Whether it's "official" or not.
I wrote a long paragraph with examples, tied in star wars, gave character examples and yet this bottom lines what a bunch of people are trying to say. Just because the naked emperor says he has cloths doesn't mean he isn't naked.
It's really simple
They make stuff
We buy it and nurture it.
They do not get to change it years later.
If they own it, they do.
@@iamperplexed4695how does that boot taste? and you are probably a mouse muncher too
@@iamperplexed4695 They can try, and it will get rejected.
The creator of Lower Decks himself said LD is canon, as per Paramount. But of all this moot because SunDance is rumoured to want to erase ALL NewTrek, sack Kurtzman, and literally start again. They are not happy at all.
SkyDance
Chainsaw wielding doctors is canon?
rodenberry said only live action is canon: that trumps what anyone ever says about lower decks
@@DS2CV But he and D.C. Fontana considered at one time that the 1973 Animated Series was a genuine continuation of the live-action TOS, and represented the never made 4th and 5th seasons.
All post-Enterprise series should be scrapped as non-cannon
someday a good steward of the property will film an official show or movie where good temporal agents consign them to negated timelines after revealing that incursions led to the saving of young burnham in the forge and to preserving the narada in the fight against the kelvin.
No. I will fight to keep Lower Decks and Prodigy.
WELL I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN KLINGONS LOOKED LIKE MEXICANS
😂 I shouldn’t have laughed so hard at that, but I did.
I also remember the Frito Bandito 😉
I remember someone said they were going to Chinese but I never saw that.
"So, what is with the Klingons? Remember, in the day
They looked like Puerto Ricans and they dressed in gold lamé;
But now they look like heavy metal rockers from the dead--
With leather pants and frizzy hair and lobsters on their heads."
--Voltaire, _The U.S.S. Make-Shit-Up_
Mongolians
The only problem with your argument about those Klingons from Discovery being a different variant is that in Discovery, we went to Qo'nos and ALL the Klingons looked the same there too. So, that argument is invalid.
The real problem is that's the people who make these shows don't actually care what you and I think about the matter.
@@TheDaveCullenShowTrue. That is the reason many of us dislike all of New trek. The producers don't care what we think and are only making it for themselves.
@TheDaveCullenShow
I would wait to see what Sky Dance does with Trek. All the talk I keep hearing is that they aren't fans of Kurtzman Trek and canceled several projects that weren't too far in development. If true, it's very possible they may decanonize all of Kurtzman Trek and start anew.
@lordamin2085 and Lower Decks does pay respect to the Prime Timeline canon even if it's an adult humor comedy show.
to steelman daves argument with as little as weve seen of Qo'onos and its in habitants were some alien to land on earth and see just as little and see as few of its inhabitants there are entire ethnicities of humans they would know nothing about. the real question is does the variety of morphology of klingons support the morphology of stds klingorks. i would say no if simply for the differences in the number of nostrils and um, other "appendages". we dont see something like it in the klingons of real star trek.
You are not in the minority, Star Trek stopped in 2005. This new stuff is not Star Trek, no way, no how.
Except Prodigy!
Nothing made after Enterprise ended counts for anything.
Star Trek Discovery + Picard = Star Trek discard.
You can add "Strange New Worlds" to that list instead of Picard. SNW jumped the shark for me with that musical episode from Season 2.
I’m glad and proud to say I never watched a single moment of discovery or new worlds, even the cartoons lower decks and prodigy.
IMO,real Star Trek ended with Enterprise but l have to admit l enjoyed Lower Decks(not a fan of Discovery or as l call it Star Tears)😅
Ditto, plus Picard
great production looks... everything else is terrible
I envy you! I watched the 3 JJ films, 3 seasons of Discovery, 3 seasons of Picard and the first few episode of Lower Decks. All of it was garbage, I wish I could literally erase it from my mind. I'm currently doing a rewatch of TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first 6 films as a mental cleansing.
@@skepticalsmurf If you enjoyed Lower Decks then you have very low standards and are very easily entertained.
In the DS9 Tribbles episode where they go back in time to the original Trek episode Dax (who looked awesome in the 60s miniskirt uniform, btw) noted how the Klingons looked different and asks Worf what happened.
All he says _"...we don't like to talk about it."_
Yep, and it was pretty much known that the 60s Klingons looked like they looked because of budget. Nobody cared, and Worf's line was a harmless little metajoke.
I thought he said, "We do not discuss it with outworlders."
The reason why the TOS Klingons looked different (more human looking) is explained in the "Star Trek: Enterprise" episode "Affliction" from Season 4.
@@CliffordBruner Which, as mentioned elsewhere in these comments, is both generally reviled and outside of many personal canons.
I remember in Star Trek enterprise how they dedicated an entire episode to explain why some Klingons in OTS looked much more human. How they were genetically altered due to some virus that was meant to make them Klingon augments.
And it was the most pointless and unnecessary episode that was ever written. Of any tv show. It should never have happened. They always had the ridges.
the skinsuit has never been canon
Yeah, I say fuck the rules. That shit is not Canon. Everything after nemesis and enterprise is not Canon as far as I am concerned.
STD was unwatchable. None of it is cannon as far as I'm concerned. SNW isn't great, but it's got some moments that are OK.
I managed to make it through the first few seasons but then the wokery got to such extremes it wasn't even funny anymore
@@jonlannister345
"Look, the Gorn are Xenomorphs now... " as if getting eaten by space-raptors who can do more than open doors; isn't scary enough?
Brutally simple. STD got retconned from the main timeline. It's more than enough.
Also Kurtzman is finally getting the boot.
And if you want to know why people going on about it is a good thing. Well okay Dave, I guess I can lead you to the answer.
If enough people collectively state "this is confirmation of STD not being canon" then no amount of what Paramount and any other person says will make it matter TO THE PEOPLE WATCHING THE SHOWS.
It will be a point of saying something like "well the entire run of Capaldi and beyond is just a delusion in the mind of the Doctor as he dies while taking out all the biggest enemies he's ever faced while on Trenzaol. The Doctor died that day. End of " and then, poof. Everything post Smith is now just not important and you can walk away from it with a satisfying statement of "The Doctor died saving the universe one last time." and have it matter more to THE FANS than anything else.
For a guy who repeatedly beats the drum of "for the fans" you're missing that massive clue.
The only thing that really matters at this point is what is canon in our own minds. In my mind, everything starting with 2009 onwards is fan fiction...and not great fan fiction either.
Yes! I watched just the first JJ trailer and lens flair and I just said NO, THAT is not ST. I was later subjected to actually watching them: did not change my mind. It made me physically sick
Fan fiction implies it was written by fans ...
@@givmi_more_w9251 Haha! Good point. Hate fiction then?
Exactly!
There’s a LOT of fan fiction that is superior to what JJ Abrams on forward gave us.
>"Whatever is on screen is canon"
Diogenes runs in with A Star Wars Christmas Special VHS "Behold! Canon!"
LMAO. That reference is so apt you deserve more likes but alas I have but one like to give
If a subsequent work bastardizes the original, then it cannot be considered cannon, even if it was made by the author himself.
Stop toIerating the destruction of culture.
It's not "wishful thinking". It's the fans taking back control of the canon from the barbarians.
even if they're saying that STD is set in an alternate reality or a parallel universe, that doesn't mean it's not canon. and i'm saying that as someone who absolutely cannot stand Kurtzman DRECK. but moving it to an alternate/parallel reality isn't the same as decanonizing it. because these alternate realities and parallel universes are canon in STAR TREK. so whatever happens there is also canon. it's like the MCU's multiverse. anything that happens in one of those universes is canon in the multiverse. and it's the same with STAR TREK. i don't like it, but that's the fact of the matter. if they really want to decanonize it, they have to completely ignore it. as long as they acknowledge it in any multiversal capacity within the series, it's still canon in the multiverse.
Clearly you have never watched Dallas. ;)
@@baahcusegamer4530 in DALLAS, it's canon that Bobby Ewing had a very long dream. the dream is still canon. it's the exact same principle. just because something was a dream or happened in a parallel universe, that doesn't mean it's decanonized. the dream still happened as a dream in canon.
We can safely say that Disney Star Wars is an alternate universe. I'm good with that.
@@KILRtv in my opinion, we give these things too much legitimacy by saying they take place in an alternate universe. to me, they're completely non-canonical, not even in any parallel universe :)
Technically. But once you remove it from the main canonical universe it becomes basically becomes like apocripha (to continue the religious metaphor). It's stuff that you can you look at, but it doesn't really matter.
No. None of the new garbage is canon. And when we dont treat it as such, when we ignore it, WE decide that its not canon and they have to abide by that to not lose money, making it non canon.
Allowing them to decide what is canon will ONLY result in us getting slop for entertainment like we are getting with Star Wars, Star Trek and other franchises.
We deserve better.
Amen
Dave.. You are seriously going to give them an out by having 'Klingon Lost Tribes' so physically distinct as to be unrecognizable as the same race?
To be fair, FASA's explaination for the "bumpies" and "smoothies" was somthing along those lines.
@@hellacoorinna9995 Betcha FASA came up with that before we saw a Klingon homeworld/high council that consisted of nothing but 'bumpies.'
I admit I enjoyed Lower Decks...but I NEVER viewed it as any kind of canon, but as a comedy/parody that's "officially endorsed" ... i.e. it's what "The Orville" was pitched as. As that, it was mostly enjoyable.
Lower Decks is a show for a dumbed down audience and the mentally challenged.
Cannon does not matter. Paramount does not want to pay any royalties related to the sinkhole that is STD. Ignore Discovery and save money.
A majority of fans don’t like STD and SNW, and canon matters to the lore and continuation of an IP. But because they have screwed with it so much they lost so much support and money.. Star Trek has been dead for a long time and so many want it to come back to form.
SNW feels like the closest to TOS we've gotten since TOS, and I don't understand why more people don't like it.
@@jceggbert5
"Gorn are Xenomorphs now"
And it still has the STD connection.
Really, they should have started off with SNW.
The "thing they don't talk about" in the pilot, could just as easily be Talos 4 instead of the STD events.
"Canon is whatever is on the screen"..I would beg to differ.
Remember Highlander 2?
it was ignored and removed from canon.
Just because some idiot adds a visual cue, it doesnt make it canon.
Some things to note:
- It is rumored that Skydance does not like Kurtzman and may fire him sometime in 2025. They want to start Star Trek all over again fresh. This form of retcon/multi-universe might have been pushed by Skydance as part of something bigger. The Section 31 movie has already been written as a failure, and the lead actress thinks it's going to damage her movie career. Again, that's all rumor.
- Star Trek merch sales dropped by a huge amount (around 80%) in one year.
- Skydance tried to cancel the production of The Academy series, but they inherited Paramount a little too late to halt it. Skydance already canceled the Halo series.
- I think most individuals already knew that STD was pretty much an alternate universe before LD dropped the final episode.
- Keep in mind that Paramount bankrupted itself +$15 Billion, and Skydance knows this. No matter what, the multiverse is the only thing Skydance can really do at this point, as it would make the upcoming Academy series (set after STD) completely pointless for the audience. In other words, there is no way they'll say that it's not canon because it would be an even more massive profit loss on their part.
Not a single second post enterprise is cannon. We, the fans, know this to be true.
I really don't think that anything they do, remove, change... Is going to revive this franchise. It's been dead from the first lens flair, modern update, garbage. We got an end in the 3rd season of Picard. That season made me cry both tears of joy and tears of loss because I knew that was it. It's over 😢😢
"We introduced a foreign organism into our environment to space-magic the environment, rather than doing it ourselves... what was that yoy said about Cane Toads in Australia or Stoata 'n Ferrets in New Zealand again?"
~ Season 2 of Picard
Hate to break it to you, Dave, but as franchise fans and certified (certifiable? :P) nerds, we ARE the "AKTUALY, SIR" crowd, because we're the only ones that know the franchise in-depth enough to do so... XD
I had just always assumed they were of a different timeline anyway, not that I watched STD past season one
Sadly what all these recent tweeks and messing with lore across media for things we once loved and cherished not only damages what has come before but actively stops us from investing into new IPs and media because everything is available for desecration so what’s the point
What we NEED is post DS9/VOY Star Trek. Like another 80yrs in the future. Rebooting, rehashing, reinventing, and retconning is WAY over done at this point. It's like "zombies" as a genre. It's time to just stop. Nobody should be allowed to do any prequel or multi-verse crap (as a plot bandage) ever again.
Absolutely agreed 100%.
I consider the Bad Reboot and Krapsman Trek sewage to be very similar to that season of Dallas in which Bobby Ewing was killed with the following season revealing that the previous season had been just a dream. I see Bad Reboot and Krapsman Trek to have also been just a dream...a horrific nightmare, to be specific...from which we shall all eventually awake...and what a joyous day that shall be!
I've been thinking the same. Hopefully the Shatster will emerge from the shower at some point, muttering something about "They're not the pussies I meant" 😊
That's the critical point most people are missing. It IS canon, it's just not part of the Prime timeline, they introduced a more convoluted multiverse. STD is still a dumpster fire, and flaming hot garbage in the dumpster.
My personal OS cannon is:
seasons 1 -3
TAS- season 4
Star Trek Continues- season 5
To me, discovery was already shown as not being canon, not least of which was because discovery just makes no sense at all being prime timeline, but the constitution class we see in Picard is much closer modelled off the original series version than strange new worlds, the countless lore discrepancies in discovery itself, the aesthetic, all of it. Also, the episode you're talking about you're kinda downplaying what actually happened. The episode has the anomaly change things into alternate reality versions of themselves. The Klingon ships themselves change into ugly discovery ships. Not just the Klingons themselves. Sovereign ships can exist in different timelines, nobody is saying they can't, but the implication here is obvious all the same. Yes it was a visual gag, but it opens the door wide for the dies that some series simply are in slightly alternate timelines
Does anyone recall that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Worf was jumping between different realities? There was that version of the Enterprise from the Borg victory reality-Riker was in tears, swore they’d never return, and then started firing on Worf’s shuttle. That’s the Discovery timeline.
In my head Canon, that universe was the one where the First Contact Borg succeeded, and Borg Earth from that movie and Riker being unable to defeat them in a lost Alpha Quadrant overrun by the Borg alternate reality are two similar scenarios for ACTUAL accurate fan fiction (or at the very least, further exploration). Then again, you also had that Galaxy dreadnought alternate reality and the one where Picard was stabbed during his Academy days, etc.
I do remember
Every star trek derivative universe is Canon since the worf TNG episode Parallels. Discovery is not the prime time line or main universe.
Canon is ultimately what the consumers are willing to accept, meaning that which consumers are willing to watch and that which generates money for the production company.
BTW, I am in agreement with Dave, anything before 2005 is the only TRUE Star Trek.
The biggest problem with the Paramount / CBS et al, was there intolerance for fan films. They saw it as copyright infringements when they should have seen it for what it was, a hunger by the audience for more Star Trek series that followed the traditional franchise.
It would be nice if they actually did a series post Voyager timeline. They could do nods back to any and all of the former series. They could complete or expand story arcs from former series much like DS9(S05E06) "Trials and Tribble-ations" which expanded on the TOS episode (S02E15) "Troubles with Tribbles". That episode is probably one of the best of all the series. Fans loved it, IMDB has it rated 9.3/10 which is the highest of any DS9 episode.
Worse yet studios destroyed what long time fans loved about the franchise by trying to be progressive.
that wasnt a "not canon" field it was a "version from another universe" field that did the transformation. In another universe the Cerritos is a powerful sovereign variant and in yet another universe klingons look like crap...
It's still canon. Did y'all forget about the Lower Decks crossover with Strange New Worlds?
They've fired the canon.
Prodigy is a work of art, best modern Trek.
As Doomcock says: Without respect, We reject. And that's the crux of the matter, Abrams and Kurtzman had no respect whatsoever for the established fan base. Now, behold the consequences.
Go outside
Nah, some billionaire saying "This is what star trek is now" doesn't fly. Star trek ended in 2008, I hope someday they make more.
It’s science fiction so STD and LD and SNW can easily be explained as being in alternate timelines. I even consider Picard to be in an alternate timeline. The problem with these shows is a LOT of people dislike the stories and the way some classic characters are treated. If the shows had had better storytelling I don’t think the canon/noncanon argument would be all that strident.
I really don't want to be that guy, but I've got to bring up the logical fallacy of SNW being a Prequel to TOS, and it has entirely to do with the Constitution class and its design in STD/SNW.
From what I've been able to gather, the Connie in STD/SNW is 427.5 meters in length, now that's just from taking the Original Connie's 285-something meter length and increasing it by strictly 50%, apparently John Eaves said it was MORE than 50% but I could not find out how much. Let's just leave it at that and move onto my next point.
So you're telling me, that after Christopher Pike's 5 year mission came to an end, or when he was exposed to that Delta radiation that left him crippled, whichever happened first, Starfleet Command said to itself, hey, you know what would be a great idea? Let's do a complete and total refit of the Constitution class and make it smaller. Lets reduce its capabilities in every single way imaginable from what it's capable of right now. From an in universe perspective, that kind of thinking is incredibly counter intuitive/productive.
Don't about anyone else but this sounds a lot like those memes where someone brings up something either absolutely brilliant, or says no, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, before that person gets thrown out the office window over it.
I may not know everything about Star Trek, but I know enough to point out an inconsistency like that. As the Vulcans would say, that is highly illogical. Especially given how often the Enterprise came into conflict with the Klingons in TOS. If Kirk had had the STD/SNW style Connie, he'd have just walked all over the Klingons and the Romulans and the Gorn.
Now I know that as technology advances tech gets bigger at some points and smaller at others. But remember that line by the Head of Starfleet in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock. "Jim the Enterprise is 20 years old." The Enterprise of that time, even with the refit, still had very much the same keel/skeletal structure. To take the STD/SNW Constitution down from its 427.5 meters to the TOS 285-something meters... I've seen a length of 285 to 289 meters for the TOS Connie, that would require removing 142.5 meters from the ship, which would mean, and I'm no engineer here, but even I can figure out that would require an entire redesign of the ships keel/skeletal structure.
It'd be easier to just build an entirely different ship from the ground up than to undertake a redesign and refit of that nature. The redesign/refit of the Connie between TOS and TMP only added about 16 to 20 meters to its overall length, and that was mostly to just accommodate the new vertical warp core design and the repositioning of the torpedo launchers from the saucer to the neck/engineering hull.
I have a really, REALLY hard time believing STD/SNW is supposed to be a prequel to TOS with the leap of logic that would require.
I can accept that some of SNW (story wise) can fit into pre TOS era canon, but the visuals of the ship, no. I can accept the TOS uniforms being adopted earlier than TOS, but that’s it. T’Pring shouldn’t have been in the series and some of the capabilities of the SNW transporters were ridiculous, and apparently there’s two or more species of Gorn somehow.
Also Kirk and crew were the first to discover the mirror universe, unlike STD trying to get us to believe otherwise.
You took the time to explain but one of the zillions of canon violations Abrams and Kurtzman have made and why nothing of this crap is canon. They don’t even try to make it make sense because they don’t actually care.
Folks this isn’t just a Star Trek issue. It’s the majority of franchises they are kept going because of the cash cow. Star Wars, Star Trek, Naruto, Dragonball, heck Even NCIS origins lol.
You really aren't the only one with your opinions on Star Trek and Lower Decks and what not. I LIKE Lower Decks, but I only to a fraction think of Star Trek when I watch the show. It's too much chaos for me.
No, Canon isn't "whatever is on screen" Dave. Canon is what Canon is. It's why people insult Voyager so much for their infinite replicators on torpedos and shuttles. Just because the series was bad at continuity doesn't mean you forget that ships have a limited supply of things.
“Canon is whatever is on screen.”
Dallas season 9
Dave is right about what canon is.
@@CubanWriter No, he's not
He's on his knees gobbling the co ck of Paramount and then saying "but I didnt like it"
There was no spore drive in the Federation and a haphazard retcon doesn't fix things after it was revealed it breaks the entire continuity of Star Trek.
Just like there's no Red Matter that can destroy a planet or transwarp beaming or anything from the Arbroo movies.
they are Fan Fiction levels of bad writing and therefore non-canon to Star Trek.
Just because Paramount says they are doesn't mean it makes sense. All it means is that it's bad writing development and application from start to finish.
Just like Voyager.
@@CubanWriter No, he's not
He's on his knees gobbling the cck of Paramount and then saying "but I didnt like it"
There was no spore drive in the Federation and a haphazard retcon doesn't fix things after it was revealed it breaks the entire continuity of Star Trek.
Just like there's no Red Matter that can destroy a planet or transwarp beaming or anything from the Arbroo movies.
they are Fan Fiction levels of bad writing and therefore non-canon to Star Trek.
Just because Paramount says they are doesn't mean it makes sense. All it means is that it's bad writing development and application from start to finish.
Just like Voyager.
@@UncensoredScionyeah, being bad doesn't make something non canon. Like you, I choose to ignore things that are nonsensical and bad. But unlike you, I don't pretend that my preferences define canon. I also don't accuse people of rooster eating because they choose to acknowledge reality.
Discovery, new world, lower decks, and picard are not canon.
Fool yourself if you want, but none of those are canon
Likewise, nothing disney has done is canon
Lower Decks shouldn't even be considered canon.
Yeah it's garbage. Those cultural [tear-roar-ists] tried saying Garek and Bashir got married
Look at it this way, would you rather have a lighter, more comedic and fun canon vs the dark, dreary and depressing canon of STD/SNW/Picard?
How can it be? It does such ridiculous stuff, that it would make no elsense for them to happen in the world of Star Trek as we know it.
Take the plethora of Harry Kim's. It literally would mean that he doesn't even get promoted to Lt. after returning home in almost every time line. And they are all willing to risk the entire universe in a fit of jealousy.
That is an in-joke, nothing more. Definitely not a realistic plot point.
@@BlueLightning12 none of those.
@@BlueLightning12 That is an asinine and ludicrous ultimatum and false equivalency. It isn't a choice between lower decks and std being canon.... lower dicks didn't even decanonize std, it just said it's an alternate reality. an Alt Reality WITHIN the canon of trek.
NEITHER of those abortions of tv are canon.
If I remember right there was a Lower Decks crossover episode in Strange New Worlds. That makes the 3 shows all connected. That may be where the LD klingons came from but whether or not they are all in the same universe I have no idea. Since that showed up it makes me think so.
The creator/show runner said He did it on purpose to de-canonize what he thought was a mistake but that he doesn't assume that his decision will stand if the the studio changes their mind about allowing the change.
This illustrates one of the problems all Kurtzman Trek has - no creative leadership. Everyone is doing whatever they want. It is crazy that those creators are essentially fighting against each other within the ST story.
There was another showrunner that said DISC is STILL canon, despite what happened in Lower Decks. He basically said people are misinterpreting what happened in that scene in Lower Decks.
You are half right. Canon doesn't mean what's on screen though, it means what's considered as "what happened", but you are right that alternative universes are canon. This is one reason Disney have done poorly with Star Wars, not making sure things line up with canon BUT setting it in the same universe.
Canon is an idea. No one can tell you what part of it you have to accept. Same applies to Star Wars. I accept what I choose to accept.
This idea is known as headcanon
As Star Trek has expanded & Gene Roddenberry was lost as a canon gatekeeper, we are kind of left with having to go with head canon.
Yup!
@@ianramsey101Once the original storyteller dies, canon is whatever the majority say it is and accepts. Corporations and modern copyright laws be damned!
4:15 - With respect I believe you have missed the point of this moment. It's not that the Cerritos was randomly transformed into a different class. It's that the Cerritos took on the characteristics of a Cerritos from a different reality. In that different reality it is a Sovereign class ship. Likewise with the Klingon it's not that he was randomly transformed into a different race that exists in this universe, it's that he became an alternate reality version of himself. In that alternate reality he IS a Klingorc, because in that alternate reality that's just how Klingons look.
And rather than being canon vs non-canon, I think want most people are trying to say is that STD/SNW are not a part of the Prime-Timeline.
Of course rather than saying this PROVES that STD and SNW are now no longer canon, I would argue that the writers are trying to leave the door open to taking things that way. And honestly that's the way it needs to go. STD and SNW have from there get go been so wildly different from the rest of Trek that they should have just kicked things off by saying these events are taking place in a universes that balances on a knifes edge between becoming like our universe or falling into the totalitarian government from Mirror, Mirror.
Side note: Yes I know that later in the episode we see a proto-klingon, but again it's not that the klingon was randomly transformed into some other Klingon subspecies that exists in the prime timeline, but that in an alternate timeline that's what he is (quite possibly because Picard and Data failed to contain the pathogen that was causing everyone to regress and it spread across the universe)
Partially related question - Given in the last episode of Star Trek Enterprise Riker was running the whole thing as a holodeck program, was Enterprise ever part of the canon?
Yes.
He was playing past events from the birth of federation so yes it is very much canon.
@@tumojitekatotumojitekato423 200 year old Federation propaganda built into a cooking simulator.
@ Exactly. While the episode in question may not have been very well written, it was doubling down on Enterprise being canon.
Fixing Doctor Who is a snap. When the basis of your show is a time-travelling, omnipotent race, you can reset the clock any way you choose.
Calling lower decks a comedy series is a disservice, it’s one of the truest star treks in a long time
Modern writer don’t want things like cannon, logic or quality getting in their way.
I agree you can't really take this particular "de-canoning" seriously, not least with it just tying things in further knots. Lower Decks appeared in Strange New Worlds, and that has incontrovertible links to STD. So you can't nuke STD without also the rest too, much like you can't do that with Voyager without also nuking DS9 & TNG. It needs someone very high in Paramount/CBS to outright say if something like this has happened, and not leave it open to ambiguity.
Fandoms became weaponized like everything else especially when Kurtzman said he intended to use the IP as a platform for touting his political narratives. That happened across the board in all media.
So I think that can DEcanonize any of the newer Trek creations is *INTENT* malicious or otherwise.
"I can tell you that whatever this is, it is definitely not Star Trek"
- Scotty, after watching modern Trek
2266-2005 = Prime timeline. 2009-2016 = Kelvin timeline. 2017-Current = Fuck/shit. The end.
Except Peodigy!
It just all goes back to “Star Trek had a STD”. Take a shot of penicillin and that should clear it up. 😂😂
I think it has been clearly said in Lower Decks final episode, that the ship has been transformed into counterparts of itself from other quantum realities / parallel universes. Therefore its very clear to me, that Disco is of course still canon but in another timeline/quantum reality/parallel universe... Whatever you wanna call it.
For me it was that day from day one of Discos start. There was never another possibility, because of the clearly visible differences in every single element of this Disco-Universe.
Maybe they should do like Cartoon Network did with "Ben 10." They established that each series is it's own timeline. It eliminates inconsistencies or the need for convoluted retcons.
The "Lower Decks" writer/showrunner was very clear that it makes STD an alternate reality, not non-canon, but NOT prime.
The whole point he was making that this takes STD out of the prime timeline/reality. So, now it's just another alternate reality, not in the prime universe/timeline. The "beam" was an alternate reality beam after-all. He covered it in an interview and was very cheeky about it, but the intent is clear.
I'd think one solution is that in trying to cure the Klingon Augments (I. e. TOS Klingons), they created another offshoot
At first I was really disappointed by Dave Cullen saying he doesn't have much time to do these videos anymore. Part way through, I realized how valuable his insights on this topic are. I thank you for taking the time you did to share this as soon as you did.
Merry Christmas, Dave. Happy New Year. 👍
Happy new year
This is the tone of voice you use when the paramount check arrives sign on delivery at 3am.
And the USS New Jersey was the original TOS Constitution Class. Not the Disco SNW one
The difference between those "mirror universe" episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager is that not one of them was then turned into a fully fledged, bona fide tv series of its own masquerading as canon, unlike STD. They were branching storylines that either went nowhere, had their own conclusive ending, or were merely speculative and open-ended (eg TNG, "Conspiracy").
Beautifully stated. Some of those alternate realities only existed in those episodes, and were then "undone" when certain actions were taken, like the Enterprise-C episode. The only way to revisit them is time travel, a memory flashback or a fleshing out of the original story from the POV of those altered characters in the alternate timeline, like how they fleshed out the history of the Mirror Universe, or followed a specific character and the different world the character inhabits compared to the life the Prime universe version of that character lived (like Kira's dead lover barely surviving in the Mirror Universe, or "Smiley" O'Brien from Mirror Universe).
If Trekkies simply ignore the nonsense after ENT, then it doesn't count. Paramount can call whatever they want cannon, if we don't indulge their delusions it holds no power.
Let me be 100% clear about this. Nothing Star Trek produced after 2004 is canon. At any point since then Paramount could have made Trek but didn't want to, CBS did, so Paramount licenced Star Trek to them under certain conditions. Licenced IPs are not canon, it is a licence to produced your own stories based upon the IP you're licencing. Canonical Star Trek is all that which was produced between 1964 and 2004. Anything produced by Secret Hideout or Bad Robot is a licenced product. I realise CBS and Paramount remerged but all that has changed is that Paramount now own both the licence and the original IP. STD was simply removed from the licence's continuity.
A sober look at things is always welcomed! Thank you.
I didn't mind any of the Klingon designs. Canon is anything that the majority of the interacting participants can accept by coherently weave together into a unity. Each person can decide.
I doubt very much anyone at Paramount has a clue or even cares about such details in the ST universe, hence why all the changes (including the Klingons version in Into Darkness) are irrelevant to Paramount or anyone involved in the productions.
They just don't give a sh*t if something breaks cannon or not, because they don't understand it or care about it.