Good for building fitness for 1 event, but it’s not great for building long term or “deep” fitness. Also there’s a big focus on always needing to increase FTP.
Thanks for the video Dylan. I've been a TR user for more than 5 years and had great success with their plans. Not saying it's the best way, buts it's worked well enough that I've continued. Have been including more endurance work in my training for the last 12 months though so not following the plans strictly at the moment.
Also, I think that TR’s main target audience is the beginner cyclist who’s getting into structured training and has 1 or maybe 2 events a year. That used to be me. Once I wanted to focus on having fitness to perform for a season of races, and wanted to see actual improvement year over year, I switched to working with a coach. TR is good, but there’s better ways to train if you’re not looking to “get fast quick”.
I have tried them, can’t get through them. Living in Michigan I need trainer time in the winter and I still prefer TR over Zwift… but I make my own workouts or pick and chose there workouts as needed. Great video. I had always wondered about other people and there experience with their plans. Thank you!
I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!
I don’t think it is fair to say Trainer Road consider “long easy base mile” not recommended. Though it is the thing that you would forgo if you don’t have time. On their latest podcasts, Chad was recommending people on their low volume plan do low intensity base ride during off days (half an hour, 45 minutes, however long you have time to put in), as long as these rides doesn’t compromise proper training sessions. It’s my first season with them. I am trying their low volume Sweet Spot Base at the moment. Mostly because with the lock down, home education of 3 kids and everything, I can hardly put a session longer than an hour in to ride. Given my modest fitness, I don’t feel the SSB plan is tiring me out (admittedly, I am not doing GYM at the moment. Those does change the balance). I am trying to supplement with these low intensity ride during off days. That said, looking at Trainerroad’s high volume SSB, some of the stuff I see there definitely doesn’t make sense and are receipt for burn out. It almost felt like they start off with low intensity SSB and just expanded it out with the extra hours. I kind of felt low volume SSB is sort of “cheat code”, and there will be consequences. For me, it’s not important to find out the optimal training method (well,I know it by following this channel), because I can’t put the hours in to do that. What’s important is find what’s best giving the time I can put in, and to understand the trade off with the cheat code.
I've been racing mtb xc and some road through my 40's and 50's and retired last year at 60. Having the extra time and energy I've gone back to the basics to what I too learned 35 years ago. Lately I've spent 3-4 months in zone one doing long rides and getting the weekly time above 12 hours a week. It still works!
Not to mention that cycling in Z1 / Z2 is actually ENJOYABLE! So having 2 to 3 really fun and enjoyable rides every week builds your love of the bike and breaks the ‘I’ve got to crush my cranks every time’ mental habit.
I think they're even proud of having really hard training plans. As a matter of fact it's just stupid. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion: just go out and ride and the rest will follow. When you are a competitive athlete this approach is not sufficient enough. You need a well(!) structured training. You need to overcharge yourself to gain maximum fitness. But you have to do it gradually and carefully. Doing 3 or 4 or even 6 interval trainings per week surely is the wrong way.
Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.
Great achievements! Congrats. By the way, coaches do need an idea, a product and a hype... sweet spot is a hype: fact. It does work, but not everyone and it goes get people burnout.
TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!
I think they were always headed in this direction it was just really complicated to mesh that with a neural net trained on 1000s of athletes training and having it both suggest and adapt plans and also react to overloading stress with off days and z2 and 1 'endurance' or off days. Now that they have it, it'd be cool if Dylan re-reviewed it, but I don't think he will; he's a coach, and well.. trainer road is their profession's stable diffusion. It's basically already to the point of being better in a lot of ways than a 200-dollar-a-month personal coach, for 20 bucks, it's far more reactive, and it now gets the basics correct its pretty existential to these guys way of life post racing.
Its Z2 of the 3 zone model this study in this video references. TR use 88-95% of FTP for SS, I know other places that use 83-93%. 20min at 95% must be hard
I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.
@@redcliffsrider Hahaha ahahahaha haha. No1 Dylan can't have gone through every paper possible in a 12 min vid so there will be conflicting evidence No2 I assume trainer road have based their training plans on some sort of evidence No3 I also don't rate trainer road and thing it's not a good product but it's interesting to hear other people's opinions otherwise you never progress in life if you only hear things that confirm your opinion
**Shots fired** Edit now that I've watched the video: Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful. Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic. Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!
Have you noticed that lately, they're talking about minimum dose required to achieve adaptation? I think they're adjusting constantly and will get better and better. I'm very sure they're committed to doing the best they can.
I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.
3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener 'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!
Exactly, if the so-called “coach” who made the program can’t complete it then it’s worthless. They shouldn’t be selling that garbage and dressing it up as a training program.
@@sharonmoller7414 He was treating it like a short-term training camp, which is perfectly acceptable and doesn't make it "worthless". Get a grip and stop being so dramatic.
@@JTMarlin8 Hmmm, if it’s a short term training camp then why not sell it as that? LOL “get a grip”? Look who’s the drama Queen now... I’m laughing so hard at you!
Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.
TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?
I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real
You kind of hit on a point I wanted to make. If Sweet Spot Base is too much TR does off traditional base plans. You can always choose those and negate this entire argument for the base phase. I know TR recommends SS but you don't have to...
You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.
I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.
Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology. I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!
Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!
I have no experience with trainer road and no connection to them. You have some good points but I'm wondering what your definition of "high intensity" is? It seems like you assume all interval training is high intensity? Imo intervals can be done in tempo and sweet spot and those are not perse HIGH intensity. (I think high intensity is around ftp or above) So doing 4 or 5 days of intervals in a week is not the same as 4-5 days HIT, right? My experience with mid intensity (tempo and sweet spot) many times a week (intervals but not high intensity in my definition) is actually very good. I think the science is not always a good reference to a general rider. Is there (i didn't check but your all in it so I'm asking) any science/studies on multiple months of training in tempo/sweet spot vs polarized? (Most studies are 6-8 weeks, but that's more effective for HIT and than the results flattens out. Sweet spot or tempo training could be slower response but higher final result after many months?) Would be cool to share thoughts about this sometime!🤙
I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭
@@Northwindbreeze this year's all messed up. I'm not in the gym this year and don't race anymore. But in the past I always lifted heavy/low reps in Jan/Feb, after mid Oct/Nov/Dec working on form and getting ready for heavy work. Then in March I would stop legs and focus on the first races in early March. Rest of the year was just gym 2xwk doing maint, low weight/higher reps, but much legs. After not lifting in 2020 (just some KB's) , I know getting back in the gym will be painful and kill my riding for a few weeks.
Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.
I tried TrainerRoad's training plan for a trial month. I started with the base level programs and found the level of intensity day after day daunting! I'm an older athlete and was not getting enough recovery time. As you noted, I started cringing when you mentioned the word Sweet Spot training. A cycling friend suggest I following your training programs and am in week 7. Fitness has been increasing and I look forward to the next days plan. Thanks Dylan!
To be fair, Trainerroad does often say that the HV plan is too much for most athletes. They even say that MV is too much for most. They always advise starting with the LV plan first.
So, I do more volume than TR HV plans. I managed the HV plan from TR and it was horrid. When I instead switched to only doing 3 sweetspot rides a week, but really extending the TTE on the sweetspot workouts and doing z2 the rest of the time, I've made fantastic gains. TR programs HV wrong
Yes. I learned quickly that even MV was too much. The problem Dylan notes is amplified by the "bigger is better" attitude of most athletic types. Way too many people pick MV or HV. The argument is largely moot if you do a LV plan, and go for endurance rides as an add on. Trainer road is their own worst enemy here with 50 billion workouts and plans with MV and HV "versions" to make it look extensive. Driving the plans with the new automated tool is making it worse because you start with the HV, MV, or LV choice at the start of the decision tree. Make a mistake there by picking MV or HV and it is all down hill from there.
@@stevenpriefer5039 exactly. During the winter, I normally do the mid volume plan, but as racing and outdoor rides pick up, I switch to a low volume plan. Often times, I will cherry pick workouts based on how I feel.
@@stevenpriefer5039 I do essentially exactly that... except on the intensity days I do the intensity in the evening and 2 hours of z2 in the morning. Been seeing great gains
THIS RIGHT HERE, is why I watch this channel religiously. You cannot out guess, out preform or out rationalize science. This young man is very disciplined and rational. The scientific approach will not fail when you have this preponderance of evidence. Thanks for taking on this sticky topic and remaining true to the science and to yourself. Nice 👍🏽 job! 👊🏽
Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.
Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.
@DylanJohnsonCycling congrats on your Unbound Gravel performance! I enjoyed this TR review, very informative. Any chance you could do another updated review 3 years on from this one? Thanks
What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!
A very fair and well reasoned video. I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete. But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.
I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍
I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!
@@hebrews11vs5 I think it just boils down to life stress off the bike. I have a desk job that's not very demanding, I eat a ton of carbs and go to sleep at 8:30 every night.
Dylan, I appreciate that you use data to back up what you tell us. I have a background in fitness and also coach juniors, you are spot on. Thanks for not being another coach that pushes no rest.
Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.
Xert does carry a number of Sweet Spot workouts. One of their podcasts suggests that Sweet Spot can be effective if your LTP and TP are relatively close. If not, stay away. See 28:35 and 37:15 from this podcast. soundcloud.com/baronbiosys/episode-6-how-to-reach-your-goals-without-a-training-plan
+1 I noticed the Xert screenshot and was about to ask about this. I really like thr platform and wonder if you'd recommend the adaptive training advisor rather than a very rigid/ prescriptive plan.
@@bikeMalach That's a key aspect that's lacking in this discussion. The answer isn't one size fits all. I can do low SST at LTP HR. Others can't. Makes a difference what you can recover from.
You forgot one SUPER important factor here: Branding. The entire TR 'brand' has been built on 'Time crunched training for middle age working parents racing club Crits on Thursday'. They will NEVER properly address or deploy a polarized plan as it goes against the last 5 years of podcast marketing and branding. I would personally argue, TR needs to be analyzed through the view of a marketing lens rather than a sport science perspective.
I couldn't agree more. Both trainer road and zwift need to keep people interested to keep them subscribing. 3 or 4 sessions of 2 hour plus zone 1 workouts and subscribers will be bored and will vote with their feet. Going hard is a badge of honor
I think a high sweet spot volume also makes you feel you’re getting more value out of your subscription. It’s manageable, and you feel like you’ve done something after almost every workout. If 4 out of 5 days they said you are to go ride _easy_ without much of a plan really (ie basic z1/2), it’s probably easier to start wondering what you’re paying for. If the program prescribes you all these complicated (in terms of different blocks per workout - some change the wattage every other minute) SS workouts almost every day, it feels much more like it’s something you could absolutely not come up with yourself.
Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂
Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.
@Dusty DeHare sorry way to many variables to answer that question for you. Age, weight, lifestyle, training history, genetics etc etc. Could range anywhere from easy to impossible.
My post ended up on the video lmao I actually really appreciate this vid because it finally puts to bed the time needed component which was what a lot of people said and I tended to believe them. Thanks Dylan!
when listening to the TR podcast i get the impression that most of their customers just train 4 hrs a week at all..... so it might be the right way to train if you really only have 4 hrs
why on earth would you spend money to get a training plan if you have only 4 hours per week at your disposal, I don't really get those people, just ride your bike as you please because there is no way you're gonna get competitive with so few hours
@@samuele8361 I am sure a lot of those people riding only 4 hours spend at least one of those hours analyzing and questioning their training plan. You really just need to ride more.
Training 100% of the time at sweet spot is idiotic regardless if you only have 4 hours...how can the body adapt to doing the exact same thing every single time.
Some people are only trying to get better with the time they have. I have 8 hours a week to train for triathlon. I know I will never be "good" at it, but I am just trying to be the best I can with the time I have. I tried TR for triathlon and I thought I was doing great. I got a coach and am doing so much better.
@@samuele8361 Depends what you mean by 'competitive.' Am I winning the Tour de France? No. Am I climbing the local crit ranks? Yes. Could I do this, with a one year old kid and a busy job, while riding outside? Really doubt it.
The hardest thing for me to do is to stay in Zone 1, but the payoff is immeasurable because I’m able to have good quality “hard” days. It’s also true that I’ve been able to avoid burnout because I’m not always hammering. As I get older, it’s all about being strategic and getting the most out of a workout. Great stuff, Dylan!
Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning. It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.
Gutted to hear this. I love TrainerRoad and it got me into structured training, but now I have a coach and listening to what you say, it makes so much sense. I really struggled as you go through the week blocks, especially as you get into the phase 3 blocks. As always, great content! Thanks 🙏
TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.
I totally agree with you DJ, I am a long time TR user and a fan but I never use their plan. I only use them as a workout app and a planner. I use their workout editer and make my own workout.
Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.
Thanks for another good video! I used TR for a while but I got over trained just as you say. I am happy I found your channel so I could plan my training better.
I can give you my opinion on The Sufferfest. Their workouts are incomprehensible. They have no meaning name, they use their own zone model without any explanations, they are stochastic so you don't know if you do a long or a short intervals, and some of them focus on really strange thing (do I really need to train to pedal with only one leg ???). Their plans don't give enough time to Z1 (from the 3 zone model), but they are closer to a polarized approach. You can't move their workout on their calendar and they are not designed to be done outdoor (you should do 100% indoor if you want to follow them), so I don't thing anybody can follow them.
Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌 To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing. As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole! Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍
I like TR very much, using it 5 times a week for 5 years now. Great video and good to have an open discussion about this subject. I agree that the Sweet Spot High Volume is to much intensity and it’s questionable whether sweet spot trainingsplans are the way to go. BUT TR is much more than that: more then 1000 workouts, other trainingsplans and you can make your own trainingsplan. So thumbs up for Dylan and TR!
Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.
Well done. I always appreciate the science behind your arguments! You have validated my personal experience over 30 years of cycling. I learned a long time ago that too much intensity without adequate recovery leads to Sour Legs.
Excellent video! I'm a TR user and this video addresses many of my doubts and questions. After getting through a number of their training blocks, feeling totally wiped out, I have lately been assembling my own plan, using their large library of workouts. Thank you for your research.
I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.
Yea so just my experience I love trainerroad but when I started using it 3 years ago (first time bike training ever) I quickly realized the crux of this video just by intuition and some knowledge of training as a swimmer back in the day- so what I did was I used the workouts to drop into a model that allowed for adequate recovery and less intensity/volume (also was doing swim/run training), and I mean, I made what I thought was pretty good progress, I learned a ton about training on the bike, and I really enjoyed the workouts. I think the workouts, the workout filter, and the workout variations (for adjusting duration but still hitting the same physiological stimulus), and the podcast are the real value of the trainerroad platform.
It's interesting to compare swimming, cycling, and running training. I was a competitive swimmer and runner, and then a draft-legal triathlete (and then back into running and some MTB/CX and road racing/training). In running training you can only go so many hard sessions a week (3, maybe 4 max), but in swimming you can get away with a lot more difficult sessions as you don't have the weight-bearing stress like you do running. Cycling seems to be somewhere in the middle. You can go incredibly deep on the bike (deeper than running for sure), and you can get away with a lot of smaller efforts on the bike day in/day out (like to just chase a few shorter strava segments everyday is relatively doable on the bike, if you're not hammering the rest of the ride). But yeah, the plan to be doing harder intervals 5 times a week just sounds like a bad idea.
This is actually healthy feedback to TrainerRoad. Even TR has internal debates on their episodes. You can customize workouts in TR for a plan to match polarized training schedule that Dylan uses, I've done it and dig it. You can also do a workout on TR and run Zwift together for Zwift fans. Plus, there's lots of info on TR podcasts that the app doesn't cover, so its good to listen to those while doing a workout...and episodes are free. Best case scenario is to have a personal coach that incorporates TR workouts. If budget can't do both, a TR subscription, experimenting with it, and some self-dedication will result gains. I like TR, it targets all levels of athletes. I like this channel too, I've used a personal coach before (Larry DeWitt, an ultra endurance athlete in Colorado Springs) using polarized training. Good stuff Dylan!
Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!
I use TR workouts to plan my polarized training. I am 61 and for three years I tried to follow the plans religiously. I train 6 to 7 hours per week. This led to constant fatigue and illness. When I learned about the polarized approach I changed over and have never looked back. You are spot on with your analysis of their plans. I have been a TR subscriber for five years and have inquired about them adding polarized plans. Each time I get the same response. "You can create your own polarized plan using our workouts." Like you, I love their podcasts and I too find some of their conversations contradictory to their plan offerings.
As a person without a ton of time, the low volume plan has worked really well for me. I can see how more than that would become problematic but for what it is; an efficient way for a guy with 5 or 6 hours a week to get faster, TR is great!
Spot on Dylan. Nailed it. I enjoy the TR podcasts but will not subscribe to their services for the very reasons you outline. I really enjoy your videos- you are providing content and value. Keep up the format and solid work.
Thank you Dylan. I have always over trained and hit flat spots. I went polarized and have seen lots of improvement on 10 hrs per week. It feels weird not to be going hard all the time but not being over tired and feeling good on the bike is a really nice feeling.
I try to do polarised but all my riding is outdoors, I don’t have an indoor trainer. I have to ride to hills to do the intervals. Sometimes I can’t avoid going harder than planned due to the terrain where I live. I usually end up with a more pyramidal or threshold distribution. Still making good gains though and the intention is there :)
Yes. Two intervals/hard sessions per week. 9-10 hours of total training. Lots of calories burned (good because I'm a fatty) but can always hammer it on my hard days and keep going week after week.
Thanks for covering TR. Like you, I listen to their podcasts and get something out of them most of the time but I have often wondered about the effort required to follow their training plans.
Haha, thanks man. Was one of the ones asking for this. It does seem like there are too many intensity days in my TR plans. It has put me in a hole before.
I don’t use trainerroad, but indeed all these platforms are trying to setup plans for quick gains, based on the fact that the majority of folks don’t have massive free time to train and recover. I just created a custom plan on zwift for endurance ride, which is my go to plan and try to either race or join a group ride once or twice a week. This works fine for me.
Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.
I love the trainer road podcast. It took me a few listens to get onboard, I didn't really get it, but now it's almost like listening to friends go on and on about who is going to beat who. I love how Nate seems to think he knows more about peoples performance then they know themselves. Honestly I could do without the questions and just have a half hour of them trash talking.
Thanks for making this video. I was a professional triathlete in the 80s and did what would now be called polarized training. I rarely felt burnt out and was able to train year round. A few months ago I decided to get back into cycling. I signed up for trainer road and did a 6 week plan. My FTP increased 50 points. However, I suddenly became totally exhausted to the point where I was dreading even getting in the bike. I kept riding anyway but my fitness quickly decreased, I gained 10 lbs and my FTP went down 40 points. So basically, I quickly got into good form using the Trainer road plan 5 or days a week, but then suddenly crashed and burned. In addition I’m almost 60 years old, so this made my burnout even more pronounced. I’m now going to go back to my old way of trial of training in the 80s and have fun again. And I can tell you that back in the day when I trained correctly, training long and slow most of the time with twice weekly hard efforts I did great on race day almost always beating the guys who destroyed me in training. You’ve done a great service making this video. Thanks again.
I'm a trainer road customer, enjoy the product, and I am STILL glad to see this video. Science is about dissent and discussion based on any and all evidence available. Ultimately this will further the discussion of good training and ultimately benefit more riders regardless of how the conversation goes. Thanks
@@FasterBikeBlog I was doing low volume because i thought it allowed me to ride outside on the other days. Even then I wasn’t really that keen on riding proper recovery on my outside days especially if I wanted to do a group ride, which is always an additional day of intensity. I have also tried mid volume which is just ridiculous and cooked me hard, as pointed out in the video it was four days of intensity.
@@izmael_kneafcy Low volume itself is already the plan, as such you need to leave out workouts when you do additional rides. I do either mid volume in winter or low volume + group rides in summer. But yes, its not much fun only using the plan and in former years I would maybe do 1 workout and the rest group rides and races. I don’t ride the bike only to get faster, but thats the focus of TR.
@@FasterBikeBlog They have a great catalog of workouts to choose from, but I would not recommend these plans to anyone in their first few years of riding. When I was a newbie trying really hard to grow my ftp like they say, I was completely ignoring the signs my body was giving me and crashed for weeks at a time. There are soo many more aspects to cycling.. Does a higher ftp make you a faster cyclist? They try to convince you it does. A faster cyclist is such a broad term anyway, what does it really mean? Who is actually riding around at threshold in the real world anyway. Being a fast road cyclist in the real world is the ability to hold decent power to weight for a reasonably long time with a good vo2 max. Get out there learn your zones stick to 1/2 for 90% of the time, accumulate more time and you’ll be surprised.
I came back to this a year after watching it to say, I whole heartedly agree with all of your points and was able to collect my own anecdotal evidence on it. At least the mental part. I have been a long time trainerroad user. My pattern was always 1 or mayyybe 2 blocks of trainerroad riding, burnout, a week of not wanting to see my bike, then get back into riding again cause it's warm again outside until colder / wetter winter. Back on trainerroad. Repeat. This year for the first time I'm following your training plans on Zwift with ERG mode. I've finished a block of intermediate (~10hr/week) FTP build with great success. I've never been able to ride my bike for so many hours per week and not hate it. I might even go up to your advanced plan after this and see how I feel. Hard rides are hard but fun (cause there's enough days between them and they are rare enough that I miss the efforts). Outside 4 hour and longer endurance rides feel like a treat rather than "jesus I gotta ride more on top of those sweet spot intervals all week." So yeah. Can't wait to start another block of your plan. FTP and fitness is coming up nicely and faster than in the past years too! I'm gonna attempt and suspect break all my personal bests by spring this year. I love TR product's many features. I love the guys and the podcast. But I simply can't stick to their plans long enough because they burn me out.
Have you tried TrainerRoad's training plans? What was your experience?
Good for building fitness for 1 event, but it’s not great for building long term or “deep” fitness. Also there’s a big focus on always needing to increase FTP.
Thanks for the video Dylan. I've been a TR user for more than 5 years and had great success with their plans. Not saying it's the best way, buts it's worked well enough that I've continued. Have been including more endurance work in my training for the last 12 months though so not following the plans strictly at the moment.
Also, I think that TR’s main target audience is the beginner cyclist who’s getting into structured training and has 1 or maybe 2 events a year. That used to be me. Once I wanted to focus on having fitness to perform for a season of races, and wanted to see actual improvement year over year, I switched to working with a coach. TR is good, but there’s better ways to train if you’re not looking to “get fast quick”.
Burn out
I have tried them, can’t get through them. Living in Michigan I need trainer time in the winter and I still prefer TR over Zwift… but I make my own workouts or pick and chose there workouts as needed. Great video. I had always wondered about other people and there experience with their plans. Thank you!
I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!
I don’t think it is fair to say Trainer Road consider “long easy base mile” not recommended. Though it is the thing that you would forgo if you don’t have time. On their latest podcasts, Chad was recommending people on their low volume plan do low intensity base ride during off days (half an hour, 45 minutes, however long you have time to put in), as long as these rides doesn’t compromise proper training sessions.
It’s my first season with them. I am trying their low volume Sweet Spot Base at the moment. Mostly because with the lock down, home education of 3 kids and everything, I can hardly put a session longer than an hour in to ride. Given my modest fitness, I don’t feel the SSB plan is tiring me out (admittedly, I am not doing GYM at the moment. Those does change the balance). I am trying to supplement with these low intensity ride during off days. That said, looking at Trainerroad’s high volume SSB, some of the stuff I see there definitely doesn’t make sense and are receipt for burn out. It almost felt like they start off with low intensity SSB and just expanded it out with the extra hours.
I kind of felt low volume SSB is sort of “cheat code”, and there will be consequences. For me, it’s not important to find out the optimal training method (well,I know it by following this channel), because I can’t put the hours in to do that. What’s important is find what’s best giving the time I can put in, and to understand the trade off with the cheat code.
I've been racing mtb xc and some road through my 40's and 50's and retired last year at 60. Having the extra time and energy I've gone back to the basics to what I too learned 35 years ago. Lately I've spent 3-4 months in zone one doing long rides and getting the weekly time above 12 hours a week. It still works!
Fartlek, that brings back some memories. You might have a look at Xert .
Not to mention that cycling in Z1 / Z2 is actually ENJOYABLE! So having 2 to 3 really fun and enjoyable rides every week builds your love of the bike and breaks the ‘I’ve got to crush my cranks every time’ mental habit.
I think they're even proud of having really hard training plans. As a matter of fact it's just stupid. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion: just go out and ride and the rest will follow. When you are a competitive athlete this approach is not sufficient enough. You need a well(!) structured training. You need to overcharge yourself to gain maximum fitness. But you have to do it gradually and carefully. Doing 3 or 4 or even 6 interval trainings per week surely is the wrong way.
Dylan I'd be really surprised if anyone would unsub to you for giving us the raw science. That's kinda what we're here for!
Sadly there is a yuge part of the American public not into science 😮
@@addingonbird1 unfortunately, I live in one of those parts. So I know all about it!
@@andrew66769 keep up the good fight 👨🔬
Cutting the fat. If people can't question the status quo with science then they are in the wrong place anyways...
It's 2021 and if you haven't looked around people have their minds made up and don't want to be confused with the facts
Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.
Great achievements! Congrats. By the way, coaches do need an idea, a product and a hype... sweet spot is a hype: fact. It does work, but not everyone and it goes get people burnout.
That's remarkable. To be a coach and live under a rock, oblivious of really not that all recent research. That's sad, really, I'd feel like a clown.
TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!
I think they were always headed in this direction it was just really complicated to mesh that with a neural net trained on 1000s of athletes training and having it both suggest and adapt plans and also react to overloading stress with off days and z2 and 1 'endurance' or off days. Now that they have it, it'd be cool if Dylan re-reviewed it, but I don't think he will; he's a coach, and well.. trainer road is their profession's stable diffusion. It's basically already to the point of being better in a lot of ways than a 200-dollar-a-month personal coach, for 20 bucks, it's far more reactive, and it now gets the basics correct its pretty existential to these guys way of life post racing.
I don’t always follow a training plan, but when I do, I usually sabotage it with my own BHD mentality
BHD?
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan
Haha. Everyone had an inner BHD, especially when trying to do a zone 2 ride on Zwift.
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan. :)
@@stormrider1119 zone 2 ride in a tour de zwift ride, I tried and I failed
I hope they invite you to their “Successful Athlete” podcast, where you can discuss this in person in depth...
I would be very shocked if they don't tbh.
@@andrew66769 Yeah they'll probably invite him and I'll be sure to listen!
@@andrew66769 Nate can’t handle criticism
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
Me: watching a video agreeing with what Dylan is saying while on the trainer doing my 4th TR intensity workout of the week...
Just do 3 workouts and add a bit of volume and you should be set
Was it really your 4th high intensity or was it sweetspot, i.e. Z3?
@@johnpeachell1644 I would qualify sweet spot as intensity, especially when they approach 95%.
Its Z2 of the 3 zone model this study in this video references. TR use 88-95% of FTP for SS, I know other places that use 83-93%. 20min at 95% must be hard
no TR plan has 4 HIT sessions a week
I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.
the video we have all been waiting for. Hopefully they do a rebuttal on their podcast - would be good to see how they come back on your points
The forum thread has already 111 comments...
Do a video Charlie
@@irl-cyclist01 yes. I would like to see Charlie's do a video on it.
You want TR to rebut peer reviewed science? Sounds like trump-think to me. :(
@@redcliffsrider Hahaha ahahahaha haha. No1 Dylan can't have gone through every paper possible in a 12 min vid so there will be conflicting evidence
No2 I assume trainer road have based their training plans on some sort of evidence
No3 I also don't rate trainer road and thing it's not a good product but it's interesting to hear other people's opinions otherwise you never progress in life if you only hear things that confirm your opinion
**Shots fired**
Edit now that I've watched the video:
Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful.
Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic.
Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!
I’m looking forward the TR response :)
@@pjgalligan I came here just to comment "shots fired" lol
I always tweak the plans to make them work.
I swear by TR and also found this to be super useful. :-)
They won't respond.
Nate will take offense, Chad will say the science shows he is right, Jonathan will awkwardly giggle and say "Right Amber?)
This
Oh man you've got it!
Best reply ever !
Lol
Haha spot on. Love TR though
*quickly uses this as an excuse to not hop on the trainer today and do prescribed session
Found backwards hat Dylan.
I like TrainerRoad, but you make a good point. I hope they listen or respond respectfully. 👍 Good work Dylan.
Have you noticed that lately, they're talking about minimum dose required to achieve adaptation? I think they're adjusting constantly and will get better and better. I'm very sure they're committed to doing the best they can.
They won't respond.
I do too, especially when I can't get outside because of bad weather. I do adjust their plans to suit though.
I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.
3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener
'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!
well they do state many many times low volume is for most and high volume only for very few
Exactly, if the so-called “coach” who made the program can’t complete it then it’s worthless. They shouldn’t be selling that garbage and dressing it up as a training program.
Context is king, treat accordingly.
@@sharonmoller7414 He was treating it like a short-term training camp, which is perfectly acceptable and doesn't make it "worthless". Get a grip and stop being so dramatic.
@@JTMarlin8 Hmmm, if it’s a short term training camp then why not sell it as that? LOL “get a grip”? Look who’s the drama Queen now... I’m laughing so hard at you!
Spot on. It’s about time someone covered this topic. Good on you for having the balls to cover it.
That’s what I was going to say. Some of us work in heavy manual Labour jobs & needs a few days rest and more zone 2.
I would be living in ignorance without Dylan's great videos.
Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.
TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?
I went from 2.4 to 4.1 in 2.4 years using polarized.
I’m 100% with you here Dylan. Well said and nice background shots 😍
I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real
Same here. I made time in my day for traditional and I’m really liking it
You kind of hit on a point I wanted to make. If Sweet Spot Base is too much TR does off traditional base plans. You can always choose those and negate this entire argument for the base phase. I know TR recommends SS but you don't have to...
Brilliant and timely for me. The best cycling information on RUclips. 🙌
You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.
Exactly what I thought.
I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.
Great content. I look forward to the TrainerRoad response. They are usually very thoughtful and sound in their advice.
Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology.
I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!
Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!
I have no experience with trainer road and no connection to them.
You have some good points but I'm wondering what your definition of "high intensity" is?
It seems like you assume all interval training is high intensity? Imo intervals can be done in tempo and sweet spot and those are not perse HIGH intensity. (I think high intensity is around ftp or above)
So doing 4 or 5 days of intervals in a week is not the same as 4-5 days HIT, right?
My experience with mid intensity (tempo and sweet spot) many times a week (intervals but not high intensity in my definition) is actually very good.
I think the science is not always a good reference to a general rider.
Is there (i didn't check but your all in it so I'm asking) any science/studies on multiple months of training in tempo/sweet spot vs polarized? (Most studies are 6-8 weeks, but that's more effective for HIT and than the results flattens out. Sweet spot or tempo training could be slower response but higher final result after many months?)
Would be cool to share thoughts about this sometime!🤙
I agree with you Jasper, I had always believed that hard Sweetspot workouts were considered high intensity, but my coach didn’t think so.
This is an excellent point. If I do 3 x 10 min. Tempo do i consider that an interval or intense day?
You are correct!
@@jackiegerwitz-dunn4046 well it is an Interval training that's a fact, but I would not consider it a (high) intensity day.
Finally, someone understands the stupidity of this video.
lol… took almost the whole video to figure out you were saying "pyramidal" instead of "pure middle" :D
Hahaha me too
Ha yep, should be pronounced “pyr-AM-idal”
Well done Dylan. I'd subscribe to your channel twice if I could!
Same!
Just create a second Google account 🤪
I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭
During your base do you lift heavy and low reps or the opposite ?
@@Northwindbreeze this year's all messed up. I'm not in the gym this year and don't race anymore. But in the past I always lifted heavy/low reps in Jan/Feb, after mid Oct/Nov/Dec working on form and getting ready for heavy work. Then in March I would stop legs and focus on the first races in early March. Rest of the year was just gym 2xwk doing maint, low weight/higher reps, but much legs. After not lifting in 2020 (just some KB's) , I know getting back in the gym will be painful and kill my riding for a few weeks.
Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.
Both Chris Froome and Dylan Johnson are not afraid to share their opinions! I think it's good, and I appreciate it.
yet people h8 durianrider for telling the truth for a decade +
@@Bayo106 think it’s his delivery of the truth that gets on peoples pisser 😂
I tried TrainerRoad's training plan for a trial month. I started with the base level programs and found the level of intensity day after day daunting! I'm an older athlete and was not getting enough recovery time. As you noted, I started cringing when you mentioned the word Sweet Spot training. A cycling friend suggest I following your training programs and am in week 7. Fitness has been increasing and I look forward to the next days plan. Thanks Dylan!
To be fair, Trainerroad does often say that the HV plan is too much for most athletes. They even say that MV is too much for most. They always advise starting with the LV plan first.
So, I do more volume than TR HV plans. I managed the HV plan from TR and it was horrid. When I instead switched to only doing 3 sweetspot rides a week, but really extending the TTE on the sweetspot workouts and doing z2 the rest of the time, I've made fantastic gains. TR programs HV wrong
Yes. I learned quickly that even MV was too much. The problem Dylan notes is amplified by the "bigger is better" attitude of most athletic types. Way too many people pick MV or HV. The argument is largely moot if you do a LV plan, and go for endurance rides as an add on. Trainer road is their own worst enemy here with 50 billion workouts and plans with MV and HV "versions" to make it look extensive. Driving the plans with the new automated tool is making it worse because you start with the HV, MV, or LV choice at the start of the decision tree. Make a mistake there by picking MV or HV and it is all down hill from there.
Sounds like we should all do the low volume plan and add our own zone 1 on the off days.
@@stevenpriefer5039 exactly. During the winter, I normally do the mid volume plan, but as racing and outdoor rides pick up, I switch to a low volume plan.
Often times, I will cherry pick workouts based on how I feel.
@@stevenpriefer5039 I do essentially exactly that... except on the intensity days I do the intensity in the evening and 2 hours of z2 in the morning. Been seeing great gains
THIS RIGHT HERE, is why I watch this channel religiously. You cannot out guess, out preform or out rationalize science. This young man is very disciplined and rational. The scientific approach will not fail when you have this preponderance of evidence. Thanks for taking on this sticky topic and remaining true to the science and to yourself. Nice 👍🏽 job! 👊🏽
Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.
You should quit cycling because you clearly didn't have the manhood to make it through. Have you considered playing croquet instead?
Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.
Could that be because the other training gave you some base to build off and then the new platform put the icing on the cake?
This confirms what I have experienced. Burned out while trying to stick strictly to TR plan.
@DylanJohnsonCycling congrats on your Unbound Gravel performance! I enjoyed this TR review, very informative. Any chance you could do another updated review 3 years on from this one? Thanks
What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!
Yep, at least you can add low volume rides to the LV plan and not feel burned out.
A very fair and well reasoned video.
I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete.
But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.
That took guts. Thank you.
I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍
I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!
You must be a beast if you can handle that high volume plan.
@@hebrews11vs5 I think it just boils down to life stress off the bike. I have a desk job that's not very demanding, I eat a ton of carbs and go to sleep at 8:30 every night.
@@raymondhollans perfect!
Dylan, I appreciate that you use data to back up what you tell us. I have a background in fitness and also coach juniors, you are spot on. Thanks for not being another coach that pushes no rest.
Isn't it time to make this kind of review for Garmin connects training plans?
Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.
Thank you, very informative!
Next review: Sufferfest training plans?
The best cycling coach information comes from You. Totally unbiased and fact based info
there's always bias. How do you think he chooses the journals to cite?
@dylan I see you use Xert. Do you like their training plans? Can you do a video of Xert?
Second!
Third
Xert does carry a number of Sweet Spot workouts. One of their podcasts suggests that Sweet Spot can be effective if your LTP and TP are relatively close. If not, stay away. See 28:35 and 37:15 from this podcast. soundcloud.com/baronbiosys/episode-6-how-to-reach-your-goals-without-a-training-plan
+1
I noticed the Xert screenshot and was about to ask about this. I really like thr platform and wonder if you'd recommend the adaptive training advisor rather than a very rigid/ prescriptive plan.
@@bikeMalach That's a key aspect that's lacking in this discussion. The answer isn't one size fits all. I can do low SST at LTP HR. Others can't. Makes a difference what you can recover from.
Well done Dylan. Really good argument. Totally agree with you. I wish I was brave enough to have made that video. 👏👏
You forgot one SUPER important factor here: Branding.
The entire TR 'brand' has been built on 'Time crunched training for middle age working parents racing club Crits on Thursday'.
They will NEVER properly address or deploy a polarized plan as it goes against the last 5 years of podcast marketing and branding.
I would personally argue, TR needs to be analyzed through the view of a marketing lens rather than a sport science perspective.
I couldn't agree more. Both trainer road and zwift need to keep people interested to keep them subscribing. 3 or 4 sessions of 2 hour plus zone 1 workouts and subscribers will be bored and will vote with their feet. Going hard is a badge of honor
I think a high sweet spot volume also makes you feel you’re getting more value out of your subscription. It’s manageable, and you feel like you’ve done something after almost every workout. If 4 out of 5 days they said you are to go ride _easy_ without much of a plan really (ie basic z1/2), it’s probably easier to start wondering what you’re paying for. If the program prescribes you all these complicated (in terms of different blocks per workout - some change the wattage every other minute) SS workouts almost every day, it feels much more like it’s something you could absolutely not come up with yourself.
Haha perfect combination of science and humor, as always cranking me up and educating at the same time
Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂
Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.
I'm on my second year of Trainer road, currently 16 weeks into Sweet spot Base Mid volume. Gone from 315w FTP to 340w FTP. Feeling fine at the moment.
@Dusty DeHare sorry way to many variables to answer that question for you. Age, weight, lifestyle, training history, genetics etc etc. Could range anywhere from easy to impossible.
@Dusty DeHare If you already are a reasonably fit cyclist and want to gain almost 50% in 5months? Where can i sign :)
My post ended up on the video lmao I actually really appreciate this vid because it finally puts to bed the time needed component which was what a lot of people said and I tended to believe them. Thanks Dylan!
when listening to the TR podcast i get the impression that most of their customers just train 4 hrs a week at all..... so it might be the right way to train if you really only have 4 hrs
why on earth would you spend money to get a training plan if you have only 4 hours per week at your disposal, I don't really get those people, just ride your bike as you please because there is no way you're gonna get competitive with so few hours
@@samuele8361 I am sure a lot of those people riding only 4 hours spend at least one of those hours analyzing and questioning their training plan. You really just need to ride more.
Training 100% of the time at sweet spot is idiotic regardless if you only have 4 hours...how can the body adapt to doing the exact same thing every single time.
Some people are only trying to get better with the time they have. I have 8 hours a week to train for triathlon. I know I will never be "good" at it, but I am just trying to be the best I can with the time I have. I tried TR for triathlon and I thought I was doing great. I got a coach and am doing so much better.
@@samuele8361 Depends what you mean by 'competitive.' Am I winning the Tour de France? No. Am I climbing the local crit ranks? Yes. Could I do this, with a one year old kid and a busy job, while riding outside? Really doubt it.
The hardest thing for me to do is to stay in Zone 1, but the payoff is immeasurable because I’m able to have good quality “hard” days. It’s also true that I’ve been able to avoid burnout because I’m not always hammering. As I get older, it’s all about being strategic and getting the most out of a workout. Great stuff, Dylan!
Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning.
It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.
Gutted to hear this. I love TrainerRoad and it got me into structured training, but now I have a coach and listening to what you say, it makes so much sense. I really struggled as you go through the week blocks, especially as you get into the phase 3 blocks. As always, great content! Thanks 🙏
TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.
I totally agree with you DJ, I am a long time TR user and a fan but I never use their plan. I only use them as a workout app and a planner. I use their workout editer and make my own workout.
Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.
Thanks for another good video!
I used TR for a while but I got over trained just as you say. I am happy I found your channel so I could plan my training better.
So now we analyzed Zwift, Trainerroad training plans. How about The Sufferfest plans. What do you think about them?
and Xert plans.
@@AncoraImparoPiper Right now recovering form Xert overtraining. Pushed on purpose to see if Xert will stop overtraining. Did not. Body gave up first.
@@jozefmatejicka8529 Did you have enough rest when it said you are 'tired' and should reduce your training intensity?
@@mikewood9284 True! So it's time for Dylan to evaluate xert.
I can give you my opinion on The Sufferfest. Their workouts are incomprehensible. They have no meaning name, they use their own zone model without any explanations, they are stochastic so you don't know if you do a long or a short intervals, and some of them focus on really strange thing (do I really need to train to pedal with only one leg ???). Their plans don't give enough time to Z1 (from the 3 zone model), but they are closer to a polarized approach. You can't move their workout on their calendar and they are not designed to be done outdoor (you should do 100% indoor if you want to follow them), so I don't thing anybody can follow them.
Dude, your videos are so good. Thanks for bringing clarity over such important and useful topics.
Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌
To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing.
As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole!
Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍
Yep, you’re right and it’s the exact approach I follow
I like TR very much, using it 5 times a week for 5 years now. Great video and good to have an open discussion about this subject. I agree that the Sweet Spot High Volume is to much intensity and it’s questionable whether sweet spot trainingsplans are the way to go. BUT TR is much more than that: more then 1000 workouts, other trainingsplans and you can make your own trainingsplan. So thumbs up for Dylan and TR!
Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.
Well done. I always appreciate the science behind your arguments! You have validated my personal experience over 30 years of cycling. I learned a long time ago that too much intensity without adequate recovery leads to Sour Legs.
There it is!!!!
Excellent video! I'm a TR user and this video addresses many of my doubts and questions. After getting through a number of their training blocks, feeling totally wiped out, I have lately been assembling my own plan, using their large library of workouts. Thank you for your research.
I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.
Agree with this 100%. It got me fast from not structure but burnt me out quick. I’m now picking my own workouts from them for my own plan.
Yea so just my experience I love trainerroad but when I started using it 3 years ago (first time bike training ever) I quickly realized the crux of this video just by intuition and some knowledge of training as a swimmer back in the day- so what I did was I used the workouts to drop into a model that allowed for adequate recovery and less intensity/volume (also was doing swim/run training), and I mean, I made what I thought was pretty good progress, I learned a ton about training on the bike, and I really enjoyed the workouts. I think the workouts, the workout filter, and the workout variations (for adjusting duration but still hitting the same physiological stimulus), and the podcast are the real value of the trainerroad platform.
It's interesting to compare swimming, cycling, and running training. I was a competitive swimmer and runner, and then a draft-legal triathlete (and then back into running and some MTB/CX and road racing/training). In running training you can only go so many hard sessions a week (3, maybe 4 max), but in swimming you can get away with a lot more difficult sessions as you don't have the weight-bearing stress like you do running. Cycling seems to be somewhere in the middle. You can go incredibly deep on the bike (deeper than running for sure), and you can get away with a lot of smaller efforts on the bike day in/day out (like to just chase a few shorter strava segments everyday is relatively doable on the bike, if you're not hammering the rest of the ride). But yeah, the plan to be doing harder intervals 5 times a week just sounds like a bad idea.
I’m a TR subscriber and fan. So glad you’ve approached this topic. You addressed my biggest questions about TR: high volume plans!!
New request: review Sufferfest!!!
This is actually healthy feedback to TrainerRoad. Even TR has internal debates on their episodes. You can customize workouts in TR for a plan to match polarized training schedule that Dylan uses, I've done it and dig it. You can also do a workout on TR and run Zwift together for Zwift fans.
Plus, there's lots of info on TR podcasts that the app doesn't cover, so its good to listen to those while doing a workout...and episodes are free.
Best case scenario is to have a personal coach that incorporates TR workouts. If budget can't do both, a TR subscription, experimenting with it, and some self-dedication will result gains. I like TR, it targets all levels of athletes. I like this channel too, I've used a personal coach before (Larry DeWitt, an ultra endurance athlete in Colorado Springs) using polarized training. Good stuff Dylan!
Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!
I use TR workouts to plan my polarized training. I am 61 and for three years I tried to follow the plans religiously. I train 6 to 7 hours per week. This led to constant fatigue and illness. When I learned about the polarized approach I changed over and have never looked back. You are spot on with your analysis of their plans. I have been a TR subscriber for five years and have inquired about them adding polarized plans. Each time I get the same response. "You can create your own polarized plan using our workouts." Like you, I love their podcasts and I too find some of their conversations contradictory to their plan offerings.
As a person without a ton of time, the low volume plan has worked really well for me. I can see how more than that would become problematic but for what it is; an efficient way for a guy with 5 or 6 hours a week to get faster, TR is great!
Spot on Dylan. Nailed it. I enjoy the TR podcasts but will not subscribe to their services for the very reasons you outline. I really enjoy your videos- you are providing content and value. Keep up the format and solid work.
Thank you Dylan. I have always over trained and hit flat spots. I went polarized and have seen lots of improvement on 10 hrs per week. It feels weird not to be going hard all the time but not being over tired and feeling good on the bike is a really nice feeling.
I try to do polarised but all my riding is outdoors, I don’t have an indoor trainer. I have to ride to hills to do the intervals. Sometimes I can’t avoid going harder than planned due to the terrain where I live. I usually end up with a more pyramidal or threshold distribution. Still making good gains though and the intention is there :)
Yes. Two intervals/hard sessions per week. 9-10 hours of total training. Lots of calories burned (good because I'm a fatty) but can always hammer it on my hard days and keep going week after week.
Thanks for covering TR. Like you, I listen to their podcasts and get something out of them most of the time but I have often wondered about the effort required to follow their training plans.
Haha, thanks man. Was one of the ones asking for this. It does seem like there are too many intensity days in my TR plans. It has put me in a hole before.
I like that you specified what percentages the polarized training model used.
I don’t use trainerroad, but indeed all these platforms are trying to setup plans for quick gains, based on the fact that the majority of folks don’t have massive free time to train and recover. I just created a custom plan on zwift for endurance ride, which is my go to plan and try to either race or join a group ride once or twice a week. This works fine for me.
Sharing Is caring... Me wants the plan 😋
Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.
I love the trainer road podcast. It took me a few listens to get onboard, I didn't really get it, but now it's almost like listening to friends go on and on about who is going to beat who. I love how Nate seems to think he knows more about peoples performance then they know themselves. Honestly I could do without the questions and just have a half hour of them trash talking.
Have been watching a few of your videos lately. This one convinced me to finally subscribe. Cheers!
Thanks for making this video. I was a professional triathlete in the 80s and did what would now be called polarized training. I rarely felt burnt out and was able to train year round. A few months ago I decided to get back into cycling. I signed up for trainer road and did a 6 week plan. My FTP increased 50 points.
However, I suddenly became totally exhausted to the point where I was dreading even getting in the bike. I kept riding anyway but my fitness quickly decreased, I gained 10 lbs and my FTP went down 40 points. So basically, I quickly got into good form using the Trainer road plan 5 or days a week, but then suddenly crashed and burned. In addition I’m almost 60 years old, so this made my burnout even more pronounced.
I’m now going to go back to my old way of trial of training in the 80s and have fun again. And I can tell you that back in the day when I trained correctly, training long and slow most of the time with twice weekly hard efforts I did great on race day almost always beating the guys who destroyed me in training.
You’ve done a great service making this video. Thanks again.
Excellent presentation of your analysis, Dylan. Your methodical and research-based approach is incredibly helpful to us.
I have found out what works for me is using low volume plan and adding endurance rides to my plan
Yep, me too. We are all different and respond differently. That is why I like the platform; I can adjust it to to suit me and still make gains.
I'm a trainer road customer, enjoy the product, and I am STILL glad to see this video. Science is about dissent and discussion based on any and all evidence available. Ultimately this will further the discussion of good training and ultimately benefit more riders regardless of how the conversation goes. Thanks
I cooked myself hard on trainer road sweet spot. Then they ask you to go on to a build phase. I was done, I never once reached their speciality phase.
Low, mid or high volume?
@@FasterBikeBlog I was doing low volume because i thought it allowed me to ride outside on the other days. Even then I wasn’t really that keen on riding proper recovery on my outside days especially if I wanted to do a group ride, which is always an additional day of intensity.
I have also tried mid volume which is just ridiculous and cooked me hard, as pointed out in the video it was four days of intensity.
@@izmael_kneafcy Low volume itself is already the plan, as such you need to leave out workouts when you do additional rides. I do either mid volume in winter or low volume + group rides in summer. But yes, its not much fun only using the plan and in former years I would maybe do 1 workout and the rest group rides and races. I don’t ride the bike only to get faster, but thats the focus of TR.
@@FasterBikeBlog They have a great catalog of workouts to choose from, but I would not recommend these plans to anyone in their first few years of riding.
When I was a newbie trying really hard to grow my ftp like they say, I was completely ignoring the signs my body was giving me and crashed for weeks at a time.
There are soo many more aspects to cycling..
Does a higher ftp make you a faster cyclist? They try to convince you it does.
A faster cyclist is such a broad term anyway, what does it really mean? Who is actually riding around at threshold in the real world anyway. Being a fast road cyclist in the real world is the ability to hold decent power to weight for a reasonably long time with a good vo2 max.
Get out there learn your zones stick to 1/2 for 90% of the time, accumulate more time and you’ll be surprised.
@@izmael_kneafcy Always listen to your body.
I came back to this a year after watching it to say, I whole heartedly agree with all of your points and was able to collect my own anecdotal evidence on it. At least the mental part.
I have been a long time trainerroad user. My pattern was always 1 or mayyybe 2 blocks of trainerroad riding, burnout, a week of not wanting to see my bike, then get back into riding again cause it's warm again outside until colder / wetter winter. Back on trainerroad. Repeat.
This year for the first time I'm following your training plans on Zwift with ERG mode. I've finished a block of intermediate (~10hr/week) FTP build with great success. I've never been able to ride my bike for so many hours per week and not hate it. I might even go up to your advanced plan after this and see how I feel. Hard rides are hard but fun (cause there's enough days between them and they are rare enough that I miss the efforts). Outside 4 hour and longer endurance rides feel like a treat rather than "jesus I gotta ride more on top of those sweet spot intervals all week."
So yeah. Can't wait to start another block of your plan. FTP and fitness is coming up nicely and faster than in the past years too! I'm gonna attempt and suspect break all my personal bests by spring this year. I love TR product's many features. I love the guys and the podcast. But I simply can't stick to their plans long enough because they burn me out.
Lost me when he had the audacity to question beer as a recovery drink.
You do realize he was being sarcastic right?