When a Church becomes so big that members to use their gifts in the Body, are replaced by professionals, then it is too big and should split and grow that way. Many people go to Mega Churches because they have the most members (numbers indicate correctness in their minds), they have the best programs, best music, and no obligation or real commitment to the Body. Every Christian has a gift from God that is to be used to edify that Body, but if for instance, the band are all professionals, the Music (worship pastor) is paid to run it. If someone is led by God to sing, but they are inexperienced or need work, they are intimidated to develop their gift in the Body or blocked from using that gift because professionals own that part of the Church. Once a Church becomes so big and dominated by professionals that the only non-paid positions ever offered is to sing in the choir, man the nursery, or be a greeter/usher. A small Church leaves more opportunity to use one's gifts, to develop and grow in those gifts, and to give members a purpose in the Body besides warming a bench and being a cash-cow. How can you fellowship if there are so many people that you rarely ever see the same people or have enough time to speak to the people. Besides, you are mainly there for the concert so you can get an emotional high and go home. Churches seem to believe that people will only come for what they get from it. My wife and I went to a fairly large Church (250-300) for a few services. We liked it, but they were so established that every aspect of the Church had a paid professional (pastor/minister) over it. To their credit, they actually had a team go out calling and visited my house to encourage us to join. Kudos on them! Good job! They started telling us, "Does your wife sing? We have a great choir!" "Our Men's Group has a lot of fun..." I then interrupted them and said, "I am sure that you have a lot of great things going on in the Church, but we (my wife and I) are not interested so much in what the Church can do for us, but what we can do for you and your Church. After going there, I believe that where our gifts lay, you really do not need us; you already have people taking care of these areas." They were utterly dumbfounded, they apparently never had anyone ask what they could do for their Church and not try to sell them on what the Church could do for them. The concept of participating in the Body and using spiritual gifts was foreign to them. To me, it was like the Lion's Club or the Elks competing for my membership. Is Church about the Body, or supporting the machine?
Scripture definitely instructs us not give great recognition to gifts that are seen (comely) because being seen in a sense is a reward. But gifts that are unseen should be given recognition. We have this backwards in the church today. “For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:” 1 Corinthians 12:24 There were quite a few great topics raised in this pod so this is with regard to the early comment about making pastors celebrities and the center of the church.
That music altar-call is one of the worst things ever. I thought I was saved until I got a humble and rude awakening during private bible study. It was a shocker of note 😂 I also used to be an electronic music artist. Music is a very powerful tool. When you play specific notes, a certain set of emotions can be induced. Those emotions induce another set that would not have existed had the first set not been there. This creates a very potent emotional experience, when you make music, your goal is to create a composition that has no emotional weak links. Even if your listener is not a musician, he or she will be able to tell if something is off when your track is emotionally weak. There is more to say but that is the gist of it. This is not bad, music is meant to touch us. The problem here is that it can fool someone into thinking that they got saved or it can fool someone into thinking that God’s presence is in the room. It always gets me, churches know exactly what they are doing when they use music to enhance the altar-call experience. It’s emotionally manipulative in my humble opinion. Maybe some can be saved through that method. Based on my experience, I would say it is very seldom at the very least. What you have is a technique that creates false converts every week. Ezekiel 36 verse 25-34 describes true salvation beautifully, it’s dramatic and it is super natural. It is also one of the greatest displays of God’s power.
Another discussion of monumental importance. And I'm with you 100%. I'm convinced that so many of the issues plaguing the body of Christ are because we fail to ask God how He sees all of these things. The rapid growth in numbers in today's western church structure is not conducive to making disciples. It's a recipe for disaster. All the while, to the natural eye, things are booming. The same with so-called "worship." God doesn't want our scripted "services" of singing and music and emotionalism when we gather. He longs for hearts engaged and being led by the Holy Spirit (not man) in high praise that wells up from within. Not on que to the next rhythm or drumbeat. We gather with lives that ARE worship to our King. He then pours Himself out to us and through us as a genuine expression one to another of His love. We are edified, built up and equipped. He is glorified and exalted in the midst of His assembly. That's His version of success.
I appreciate this video. Haven’t seen the interview but I agree with the sentiment of things feeling “off” pertaining to Mitchell. I think he thinks he’s set apart from mega church/celebrity/vanity Christianity culture because of his teaching, yet in practice he’s very much in the thick of it.
I remember a key issue I took offense with was back when I helped at a church I was attending. That issue was the fact that they counted “salvations” as a weekly statistic. What they counted as a salvation was whoever raised their hand during the altar call and sinners prayer.
A few comments. 1. Regarding the staff (i.e. professionals) helping other believers, that is something I have deep issues with. Not that I am judging the individuals as I know many are sincere and loving and want to help. My concern/issue is that this is their job. This is what they are either hired and paid to do or recruited to do as volunteers. Whereas others in the body do not cross the line into someone else's assigned area since that is not their assigned job. Maybe parking is so they focus on that, or "worship team" so they focus on their music, or setup/breakdown, etc. Also, many in the body do not have "jobs" per se so they often don't feel it is their responsibility to help in given areas (generalizing as this is not across the board) as that is another person's job. This pattern is not organic nor Spirit led and does not follow the NT model but rather the corporate model (i.e. segregation of duties). 2. I am tired of teaching and preaching and that being the main focus of "church." Well, "worship" too but that is also patterned after the world and not the NT pattern in Acts, I Cor 14, etc. This coming from one who is highly cognitive in disposition. Yet I ask, how much more doctrine or teaching do we need...especially in the west? The church in the 10-40 window including China and other underground churches often have very little/immature doctrine (which I'm not saying is good as teachers/missionaries can greatly help them) but what they lack in word they make up in deed such as loving one another, hospitality, church life, etc. FInal thoughts: If a church follows the pattern of the world and how church is done today and does not address the root, not much is going to change. Sure, the externals may look different and one may be able to point to this metric or that statistic as indicators of growth, but if you only do window cleaning, at the end of the day you only get clean windows and not a clean house.
Greetings🙂, to answer your question... YES, IDOLATRY IS PROBLEMATIC AND SIN (so is PARTIALITY and SECTARIANISM)! I would like to kindly state an observation that I have made over time regarding churchianity/denominationalism aka the churchISH culture. I understand exactly where you're coming from about not wanting to make a comment or statement regarding things that seem to be very OFF and even WRONG happening within the body of the Christ (especially pertaining to preachers/pastors and now PREACHER CONTENT CREATORS) being displayed everywhere. If a remark, opinion/point of view, statement or even a disagreement with someone or a subject matter especially if it is of people's favorite IDOL and/or if it be deemed unfavorable, a criticism (which is actually REPROOF), or even correction then you become the devil😈, a hater, are rebuked, are slandered or worse for it. But, with all the FALSE TEACHINGS, the zealous IDOLATRY, overt SELF AGGRANDIZING (even in subtleness; the FALSE HUMILITY), VANITY, and the blatant WICKEDNESS, why shouldn't what is WRONG (according to the Scriptures📖) be made known? I do not think that there is more negativity than encouragement because we are living in a timing whereas there is so much DELUSION that FAKE/FALSE is deemed REAL/REALITY; good is called evil and evil is called good and for many people and churches there's no difference. It's the Rufus and Chaka Khan theology (Do you LOVE what You FEEL)! So, many churches are fascinated, infiltrated, and inundated with the culture/the world that the lines are NO LONGER blurred. The 2 guys you mention in this video... NOT a fan nor follower👀! Mercy, Grace & Shalom🙏🏼
When a Church becomes so big that members to use their gifts in the Body, are replaced by professionals, then it is too big and should split and grow that way. Many people go to Mega Churches because they have the most members (numbers indicate correctness in their minds), they have the best programs, best music, and no obligation or real commitment to the Body. Every Christian has a gift from God that is to be used to edify that Body, but if for instance, the band are all professionals, the Music (worship pastor) is paid to run it. If someone is led by God to sing, but they are inexperienced or need work, they are intimidated to develop their gift in the Body or blocked from using that gift because professionals own that part of the Church. Once a Church becomes so big and dominated by professionals that the only non-paid positions ever offered is to sing in the choir, man the nursery, or be a greeter/usher.
A small Church leaves more opportunity to use one's gifts, to develop and grow in those gifts, and to give members a purpose in the Body besides warming a bench and being a cash-cow. How can you fellowship if there are so many people that you rarely ever see the same people or have enough time to speak to the people. Besides, you are mainly there for the concert so you can get an emotional high and go home.
Churches seem to believe that people will only come for what they get from it. My wife and I went to a fairly large Church (250-300) for a few services. We liked it, but they were so established that every aspect of the Church had a paid professional (pastor/minister) over it. To their credit, they actually had a team go out calling and visited my house to encourage us to join. Kudos on them! Good job! They started telling us, "Does your wife sing? We have a great choir!" "Our Men's Group has a lot of fun..." I then interrupted them and said, "I am sure that you have a lot of great things going on in the Church, but we (my wife and I) are not interested so much in what the Church can do for us, but what we can do for you and your Church. After going there, I believe that where our gifts lay, you really do not need us; you already have people taking care of these areas." They were utterly dumbfounded, they apparently never had anyone ask what they could do for their Church and not try to sell them on what the Church could do for them. The concept of participating in the Body and using spiritual gifts was foreign to them. To me, it was like the Lion's Club or the Elks competing for my membership.
Is Church about the Body, or supporting the machine?
thats a powerful statement.
Scripture definitely instructs us not give great recognition to gifts that are seen (comely) because being seen in a sense is a reward. But gifts that are unseen should be given recognition. We have this backwards in the church today.
“For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:”
1 Corinthians 12:24
There were quite a few great topics raised in this pod so this is with regard to the early comment about making pastors celebrities and the center of the church.
That music altar-call is one of the worst things ever. I thought I was saved until I got a humble and rude awakening during private bible study. It was a shocker of note 😂
I also used to be an electronic music artist. Music is a very powerful tool. When you play specific notes, a certain set of emotions can be induced. Those emotions induce another set that would not have existed had the first set not been there. This creates a very potent emotional experience, when you make music, your goal is to create a composition that has no emotional weak links. Even if your listener is not a musician, he or she will be able to tell if something is off when your track is emotionally weak. There is more to say but that is the gist of it.
This is not bad, music is meant to touch us. The problem here is that it can fool someone into thinking that they got saved or it can fool someone into thinking that God’s presence is in the room. It always gets me, churches know exactly what they are doing when they use music to enhance the altar-call experience. It’s emotionally manipulative in my humble opinion. Maybe some can be saved through that method. Based on my experience, I would say it is very seldom at the very least. What you have is a technique that creates false converts every week.
Ezekiel 36 verse 25-34 describes true salvation beautifully, it’s dramatic and it is super natural. It is also one of the greatest displays of God’s power.
Another discussion of monumental importance. And I'm with you 100%. I'm convinced that so many of the issues plaguing the body of Christ are because we fail to ask God how He sees all of these things. The rapid growth in numbers in today's western church structure is not conducive to making disciples. It's a recipe for disaster. All the while, to the natural eye, things are booming. The same with so-called "worship." God doesn't want our scripted "services" of singing and music and emotionalism when we gather. He longs for hearts engaged and being led by the Holy Spirit (not man) in high praise that wells up from within. Not on que to the next rhythm or drumbeat.
We gather with lives that ARE worship to our King. He then pours Himself out to us and through us as a genuine expression one to another of His love. We are edified, built up and equipped. He is glorified and exalted in the midst of His assembly. That's His version of success.
Bro, I noticed the same exact vanity from all his interviews/clips in the last month or so.
I appreciate this video. Haven’t seen the interview but I agree with the sentiment of things feeling “off” pertaining to Mitchell. I think he thinks he’s set apart from mega church/celebrity/vanity Christianity culture because of his teaching, yet in practice he’s very much in the thick of it.
I remember a key issue I took offense with was back when I helped at a church I was attending. That issue was the fact that they counted “salvations” as a weekly statistic. What they counted as a salvation was whoever raised their hand during the altar call and sinners prayer.
A few comments. 1. Regarding the staff (i.e. professionals) helping other believers, that is something I have deep issues with. Not that I am judging the individuals as I know many are sincere and loving and want to help. My concern/issue is that this is their job. This is what they are either hired and paid to do or recruited to do as volunteers. Whereas others in the body do not cross the line into someone else's assigned area since that is not their assigned job. Maybe parking is so they focus on that, or "worship team" so they focus on their music, or setup/breakdown, etc. Also, many in the body do not have "jobs" per se so they often don't feel it is their responsibility to help in given areas (generalizing as this is not across the board) as that is another person's job. This pattern is not organic nor Spirit led and does not follow the NT model but rather the corporate model (i.e. segregation of duties). 2. I am tired of teaching and preaching and that being the main focus of "church." Well, "worship" too but that is also patterned after the world and not the NT pattern in Acts, I Cor 14, etc. This coming from one who is highly cognitive in disposition. Yet I ask, how much more doctrine or teaching do we need...especially in the west? The church in the 10-40 window including China and other underground churches often have very little/immature doctrine (which I'm not saying is good as teachers/missionaries can greatly help them) but what they lack in word they make up in deed such as loving one another, hospitality, church life, etc.
FInal thoughts: If a church follows the pattern of the world and how church is done today and does not address the root, not much is going to change. Sure, the externals may look different and one may be able to point to this metric or that statistic as indicators of growth, but if you only do window cleaning, at the end of the day you only get clean windows and not a clean house.
Greetings🙂, to answer your question... YES, IDOLATRY IS PROBLEMATIC AND SIN (so is PARTIALITY and SECTARIANISM)! I would like to kindly state an observation that I have made over time regarding churchianity/denominationalism aka the churchISH culture. I understand exactly where you're coming from about not wanting to make a comment or statement regarding things that seem to be very OFF and even WRONG happening within the body of the Christ (especially pertaining to preachers/pastors and now PREACHER CONTENT CREATORS) being displayed everywhere. If a remark, opinion/point of view, statement or even a disagreement with someone or a subject matter especially if it is of people's favorite IDOL and/or if it be deemed unfavorable, a criticism (which is actually REPROOF), or even correction then you become the devil😈, a hater, are rebuked, are slandered or worse for it. But, with all the FALSE TEACHINGS, the zealous IDOLATRY, overt SELF AGGRANDIZING (even in subtleness; the FALSE HUMILITY), VANITY, and the blatant WICKEDNESS, why shouldn't what is WRONG (according to the Scriptures📖) be made known? I do not think that there is more negativity than encouragement because we are living in a timing whereas there is so much DELUSION that FAKE/FALSE is deemed REAL/REALITY; good is called evil and evil is called good and for many people and churches there's no difference. It's the Rufus and Chaka Khan theology (Do you LOVE what You FEEL)! So, many churches are fascinated, infiltrated, and inundated with the culture/the world that the lines are NO LONGER blurred. The 2 guys you mention in this video... NOT a fan nor follower👀!
Mercy, Grace & Shalom🙏🏼