Back in the good old days. The after market high performance ignition system kits always came with a separate isolation diode. Most people would not read instruction about installing the diode. Consequently the engine would not shutoff. There is enough residual voltage created by the alternator to power the coil and create a spark at the plugs. Yes, the diode not being installed is the problem.
This was my recollection too. The kit probably came with a diode or the instructions mention installing one, but more than 50% of people don't read instructions and that is probably even higher among auto mechanics for some reason. It seems to be an ego thing.
The brown wire is for the gen light. When charging the bulb has + voltage on both leads, and light goes off. When alt is not charging the alt supply's a ground and light turns on. Should have found another switched 12volt circuit to power the FI.
Well that was kind of the problem... Alternator back feeding though the charge bulb and providing the 5V to ALL the other ignition circuits including the EFI turn on wire 😅
Appears to be a GM alternator. Those were known to have a bad diode trio that would cause the gen light to glow dim. Super easy to replace. @@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
The primary issue is that the I terminal on the coil should only have voltage during cranking. It should not have voltage before or after cranking. It is commonly used to provide full voltage to the ignition system for easier starting. Resolve that, and you resolve the issue. The voltage you found at the alternator wasn't direct ignition voltage. The brown wire connects to the indicator bulb in the cluster through a resistor. The other side of the bulb is connected to ignition voltage. That is why the voltage drops significantly when you touch a simple test light to the brown wire. There isn't enough current available from the alternator, through the resistor/bulb, to keep the engine running. The problem was, and still is, a hacked wiring job. There was an additional back-feed because of this, which also wasn't enough to keep the engine running at key off. That was evident by the voltage on the solenoid's I terminal at key on. That low-current back-feed, in combination with the normal alternator back-feed, was enough to keep the engine running. Cut either, and it shuts off normally. You unintentionally added a new hack to the mix, instead of fixing the original problem. The charge warning lamp cannot indicate an over-charge condition now because of it. Thankfully, that is rare.
As others have said that brown wire was to turn off the charging light on the dash. When you have battery power on both sides of the light, the bulb turns off. The diode will fix the problem. Next question is, does this vehicle have a charge light or possibly a volt meter? It may have an ammeter, but that is probably a shunt under the hood with two small wires from the shunt to the meter in the dash to read charge. That's why voltmeters were used instead of the shunted ammeter. Good one Ivan.
The brown wire connects downstream the alt/gen light and a half wave rectifier inside the alt. If you looked on a scope you would see the 6v is pretty ugly. The purpose is to self power the field in the rotor of the alternator and place opposing voltage to the dash light to extinguish it. Your diode fix is reasonable. Isolating the FI system completely from that portion of the ignition circuit would be better. Converting a points GM to hei in the early 70s would yeild the same result. Depends on the car whether you can find a swit h ignition source that is not connected to that feedback circuit or whether you must use a diode or relays to isolate.
As someone already said, that is a GM alternator and were known to back feed. MSD used to supply a diode in the kit to be installed if the engine continued to run after key was shut off. It sounds like it has a dead hole when it's running.
I remember back in the day my dad having old junkers that would stay running after you shut it off. The whole car would shake until it finally died. Sometimes, if it was really stubborn, you'd have to go out back and cover the exhaust with your shoe. Good times.
I think the Altanator field wire goes to the dash light that has ignition power to one side and the other side goes to the field wire on the alternator. That’s why there was 5 volts when key was off because the lamp was acting like a resistor. I think the diode probably should go before the dash light so the light will illuminate when alternator is not charging.
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics With the key on, voltage leaves the ignition switch, goes through the alt dash lamp, then through the brown wire and grounded through the alternator. When the engine is started and the alternator starts putting out voltage, the ground goes away and the lamp on the dash goes out since there is no longer a ground, and you just have voltage from both directions. Something was wired incorrectly with the conversion kit to allow voltage to flow to more than the ignition switch, or there maybe something wrong with the ignition switch.
IVAN, YOUR SCIENTIFIC APPROACH IS SUPREME AND SO ADVACED BASED ON SCIENCE. POWER TO YOU. YOUR SOLUTION TOOK CARE OF THE ISSUE GOT THE OWNER AND THE SHOP TOTALLY OUT OF TROUBLE. IT MUST BE YOUR ENGINEERING BACKGROUND AND TRAINING. YOUR INTIAL JOB YOU LEFT IS THE BEST DECISION YOU EVER MADE TO YOURSELF.
We converted early 1960s model forklifts from generator or externally regulated alternators to Delco SI 3 wire internally regulated alternators. We would encounter the same problem when connecting the control wire with the ignition switch if a resistance wire wasn't used. It could also be solved by replacing the ignition switch with one that had an accessory terminal that wasn't connected to the ignition in the off position and connecting the control from the alternator to acc.
good work, the brown wire is for charging light or resistor, that what make the alternator start charging, the i terminal on the solenoid is to bypass the resistor for the coil when cranking the engine, on older system with point
Who am I to say but, when you used the butt connector on the diode, I thought it best to fold over the diode wire so there would be 2 strands inside each end of the but connector making a better connection & double the chance to hold its grip. Just a idea. I realize that I am speaking to the diagnosis guru! The unrenounced master of diag! You always nail it & that is why I always follow your work! Keep up the awesome diagnosis Ivan!!!
I had a '54 Ford pick up that I upgraded to 12v alternator. I was a novice at that time. I experienced similar problems working with the correct connection for the exciter wire for the alternator.
I really love your site. Among the sites I watch every time they come out are yours, Eric's and Wes. It looks like that Jeep has no clutch starter lockout, bypassed, or didn't come from the factory. Keep the great, informative videos.
Nice to see you help the (aftermarket) guy ! For a change 👍 Alternator is on its way out, should charge without that wire (possibly the 2 alternator wires are swapped)
Ivan: My experience comes from the vintage late 1960's Ford world and the back feed issue with this Jeep also afflicts some aftermarket ignition systems there as well. The factory points/condensor ignition system on the older Fords includes an inline resister wire (pink) in the underdash wiring harness that effectiely steps down the voltage to the coil to keep the coil from getting too hot and the ignition points from burning up prematurely. The "I" terminal on the starter solenoid momentarily sends full battery voltage (12V+) to the coil only when the starter is engaged to assist in starting. Once the engine starts and the key returns to the "run" posistion, the 12V+ feed at the "I" terminal is interrutpted and the "regular" coil voltage ( often sometimes less than 8V+ If I recall correctly) back feeds to the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid. Aftermarket ignition modules such as the Pertronix Ignitor I need something on the order of a minimum of 8 volts to trigger the ignitor module. Some older stock harnesses develop higher resistance over time and drop below that threshold, requiring a resistor wire bypass to work reliably. Occasionally a DIY owner will cobble together something that may result in a similar back feed issue you saw with the Jeep leading to ignition miss and stalling as the ignition circuit builds additional resistance as the heat under the hood rises. Regards, Jeff
Hi Ivan GM had that problem back in the 70's, the back feed I believe fed though the alternator light on the dash. I think the fix was the same as you add a diode to block the power path. I think that the internal regulator now has a back feed diode in it. possible that the regulator has a problem. Rich
Pre-Chrysler. Notice the square ignition key. Fun to see the old AMC 6cyl ..... so much of that is still evident on my XJ even after Chrysler and Daimler got into things.
I installed brand new wiring all around in a Vickies. In the situation where the vehicle wouldn't shut off was fixed by the supplied diode that goes into alternator wire that has to be installed. That prevents backfeeding voltage to ignition switch.
The answer was posted early on. But you will get that backfeed with any conventional alternator, because thats how they cause the charge warning lamp to extinguish - battery voltage both sides of it. The change here is that with the aftermarket kit, the only load on the ignition supply is the relay coil. However with a conventional setup it tries to feed the coil primary but there's too much voltage drop across the lamp, it limits the coil primary current to maybe 100-200mA and theres going to be no spark, the engine will stop.
That crimp tool looks better than the china crap I use. Ivan has converted me to a solder man. I use a short unshielded butt connector with the wires cut long enough to solder on one side then heat shrink over the whole thing.
This reminds me of my 86' Dodge Lancer. The battery stopped charging and I changed the alternator. However the problem was the voltage regulator which was in the PCM because why not. Great video Ivan.
Nice fix for a Bad or no diode in alternator or the original ignition module had one! The Sniper was in my crosshairs until you said you already found an alternator issue.
Steering all over the road... My 1993 Chevy C1500 had a seriously sloppy steering feel. I pulled out the rag joint and replaced it with a Jeep U-joint sub-shaft (a common modification). It was a very worthwhile improvement! A couple of years prior, I had done a complete frame-out front end refresh so there was no question the rag joint was now the big culprit to the steering slop feel.
Nice repair, good t-shooting. I think you should have folded the diode leads onto them selves, same for the wires. Being thin, they would crimp better with double wires. That's been my experience. Thanks for the video.
There used to be a fix for this issue by just wiring in a resistor to the brown wire. The original charge bulb or gauge was enough resistance to prevent the back feed problem
I remember my '81 Olds Cutlass had a removable diode (and possibly voltage regulator) mounted on the side of the alternator. I think my '77 Pacer (American Motors and related to the Jeep) had something similar. They were easy to replace. I did mine as standard maintenance. You could also replace the bearing set on the alternator. With proper maintenance they could run a long time. Later cars didn't have that option anymore.
Hopefully I can shed a little light on this type of starter setup.... I haven't really worked on jeeps much but that setup is basically the same as Ford used for decades.... the "S" terminal is the one supplied power to close the solenoid the "I" terminal should be factory wired in to the ignition coil circuit after any ballast resistors, to supply full battery voltage during starting, because the coil normally would receive roughly 6 volts running. The thought was power draw of the starter could drop the power low enough to be hard too start or not start at all. Your solution is not a bad one by any means and I have no idea what else Chrysler Corp. may have used that terminal for from the wiring they may have used it to also 'wake-up' the voltage regulator. I suspect who ever set up the wiring instructions wasn't aware of that use because many vehicles never used it but since jeep was frequently using Ford ignition systems and carburetors at that time it is likely that's why they did it.... Side note back in the days of electric chokes on carburetors most Ford's used a choke that operated on roughly 7½volts *A/C* they used the stator circuit on the alternator and no other wiring or switches.... because they were only powered when the engine was running and the power supplied was changed by engine speed meaning the faster the engine ran the quicker the choke opened....
I work on crown fork lifts, one of their Harness has two zener diode, they use butt connectors also. Wish I could understand the circuit as well as you do.
The wire you were trying to solder to was probably a nichrome resistance to help prevent the alternator from back feeding the ignition however the aftermarket ignition system was to sensitive for this solution. Therefore the factory should have used the diode instead of the resistance wire.
It can also be plating or a coating for corrosion prevention. It was common back in that era. a sanding or knife to scrape of the surface before soldering.
Most likely that single strand wire was the resistor (resistance wire) that showed in your schematic. Usually that kind of wire is made out of iron and not copper at all so your solder will not tin to it.
msd ignition systems manual will also have you put a diode in the brown wire i know this because our drag car would not shut off with switch off good luck your on the right track
It would be interesting to know if that has a charging light and volt gauge from the factory. Those old Delcotron alts are known for leaking diodes triodes. So though it will charge ( may not put out rated amps but still should produce good system voltage) the light will be on dimly. Depending on which diode leaks, it can cause a backfeed through the ignition system. I 1st saw that on my grandfather's 75 Olds. The light would come on dimly and the car wouldn't shut off via key unless the connector for the alt was unplugged. A new alt fixed it.
Nice detective work! Wires that won't take solder at all are probably aluminum, it is a cheapo cost saving measure found in low quality wiring. Either way, butt connector or solder, that harness is going to be flapping around a lot though...I hope the owner ties it up so it doesn't experience strain failure. Assuming that thing gets driven at all. I probably would have looked further up the harness to try to find a point in the wire that wouldn't be jiggling around as much?
Agree; would have used a professional type crimper(surprised he does not have one as he does so much electronic work) and a couple of heat shrink tubes to go over the connections, as those "old style-one crimp" pliers will usually work themselves loose.
exactly. you took the comment right out of my mouth. early '80's had the copper shortage (remember thats when pennies went to copper clad zinc)and i ran into more than one vehicle with aluminum wiring. some was actually copper clad aluminum. and yes that diode package in a wiring harness may break the leads off from vibration.
@@richardcranium5839 In the communications industry here in AUS they used aluminium in large cables that had at least 2,800 pairs of wires ,after about ten years they had turned to dust literally had a hell of a job replacing them could not identify any of the 2 wire circuits.
I was totally off on my first guess - I thought the ballast resistor and its bypass on the starter solenoid had been miswired and used for the aftermarket ignition source. That solid wire that won't solder is likely Nichrome. It was used on vehicles with ammeters instead of an idiot light for the alternator. Normally, the power would go thru the idiot light to provide current to get the alternator field going, but with no idiot light, some resistance was needed - Nichrome has some resistance.
The single strand wire may be a resistor wire. Old school. The alternator trigger wire was fed through the idiot light from the ignition accessory terminal through a resistor wire. The wire was usually looped up and taped in the wire bundle behind the dash to meet the required value. Look up a 1973 c10 pick up alternator wiring diagram.
Way back I got the urge for a Jeep. I test drove a one year old beautiful white CJ7. The canvas top made lots of wind noise and it took both hands to keep it in the middle of the lane. That killed my interest in Jeeps forever.
I have seen similar problems like that. I had to put a diode on an older Chevy feed wire back to the dash. The generator light would stay on, had a back flow to the dash, diode stopped the problem.
Is that engine knocking or is it just the audio? It sounds like it's getting tired. There shouldn't be any voltage coming back out on that lead but the diode is the best fix! Good job! Thanks Ivan!
Nice fix the wire was obviously the feed to energies the alternator and once it’s turning produce voltage so was back feeding, I’m pleased the wire wouldn’t take solder as just a soldier joint is no good on its own has to be mechanical as well as solder otherwise could break free with vibrations
I was thinking the red wire was for alt feild and brown was for lamp. I thought the red was switched on the old GM 2 wire alternator but its been a while since ive touched one that old.
Using diodes to prevent back feeds is ok but it does create a .6 volt drop when conducting . This shouldn't matter if voltage isn't critical like in this application . That engine and aftermarket ignition sounds terrible pinging very badly something is severely wrong timing wise and won't be long before detonation will do some severe permanent damage in its current form . My friend who is a very competent mechanic put a similar system on his 1990 land cruiser with the old school 3f carburettor engine. It was a vast improvement over the original distributor giving very accurate ignition timing over all the engines power outputs and revs and can be tuned via a laptop with software that comes with the kit .He is still running a carburettor but single point fuel injection add ons are available with closed loop capabilities with oxygen sensors on the exhaust. These systems when installed and tuned correctly really bring a old school engine into the modern world , he is considering this total upgrade but like everything it isn't cheap. I like it that you attempt all repairs with a open mind seeing that s##tfight of a installation would scare most mechanics off and the shop is doing the right thing the owner needs to find a specialist in these systems to sort it out. 22:25
Been there, done that many long years ago doing an engine conversion swap on a old Ford truck. Put in a newer 351M engine, and in the process the diode came off the wiring harness. Started up just fine, just couldn't shut it off! We ended up using old fashioned nylon spark plug wire pliers to pull the coil wire off the ignition to shut it off (and got zapped for our efforts). Once we got it shut off, my dad commented that he'd seen the diode and picked it up - did I suppose it was the culprit? Duh!
The other side of the lamp goes to a positive (15) ignition switched. So when the engine is running the lamp receives 12 volts on both terminals and suhts off. That's the work of the lamp on the dash with the battery symbol and that's how old cars work.
Back in the early '80's I had a customer bring in a late '70's Ford, station wagon I think, that ran fine but wouldn't shut off when the key was turned off. If you opened the throttle a bit it would die but otherwise would idle forever with no problem. Ask the customer what had happened prior and found out the old battery died and all they had was a Chevy battery. The pos and neg are backwards from the Ford and the ground cable was too short so they moved it from the engine block to the frame. Installed new Ford battery and put neg cable back on engine block, fixed. Never did understand that one.
Ahh the magic diode. I had this same issue on a luttron lighting system, damn Occ sensor would feed back through each other, Also keep in mind folks these diodes also have a PRV voltage and bias voltages. Great vid and jeep my buddy had one back in 86. Should just leave it 85.
I also thought Diode, a few seconds before you said it, but the word Relay also appeared out of the grey matter lol. Is the alternator wire a warning light wire but the bulb is way too high a wattage so a bit extra current is going to the altenator WL terminal. I could be talking crap, and my logic is for old lucas alternators with leaking diodes.
I would cover the diode with heatshrink tubing because electrical tape has a habit of unwrapping itself unless you fit a cable tie to the finishing end if the electrical tape !
You probably know this but if you don’t you can buy diodes that fit fuse holders and potted diodes that mount to the chassis and have spade outputs. The diodes leads could fail due to vibration causing a paperclip effect.
@@scotts4125 thanks I never heard that one . Everyday I learn something on these channels. And it’s usually from comments by people a lot smarter than me. I spent way too much time in the military
That diode wont last 2 minutes. Best practice would be to find a non vibration point in the wire, behind instrument cluster, or extend the wires where he did cut, up to the inner fender and fit a diode module. Components like those are meant for non moving circuit boards, not inline with soft wire.
These older alternators send power back out through the charge light in the dash as the resistor in order to determine how much power is needed to charge the battery. When the ignition switch is keyed on, it lights the charge light also telling you the battery is draining. When the alternator starts charging, it equals out the current flow through the charge light and makes it go out. This could cause issues back feeding power back into the ignition system when the key is switched off is the reason why they install a diode. Many people used to just tie the two sense wires together and the alternator would charge at full capacity until it boils out the battery and burns the unit up. Had a similar issue when a buddy bought a converted 12v old ford tractor that used a GM alternator. I had to wire in a light bulb into the circuit and he told me that lamp stays lit and it drains the battery down. You have to rev the snot out of the engine in order for it to spin fast enough to engage the alternator but he didn't understand. The purpose of the lamp was telling him the current is flowing away from the battery and not into it causing the battery to run down. Hard to explain to some that dont understand how electronics works.
Thanks for the videos. I invented /patented the screw in piercing probe years ago. Remember to liquid tape the hole in the wiring jacket after piercing a hole to reduce water induced wire corrosion. I’ve seen on an mis-wired vehicle a spinning radiator fan generate electricity (after a key off) and keep the ignition circuit powered and the engine running until the fan slowed down (almost quit spinning).
I had that happen with my 2006 Wrangler. My situation was the ignition key cylinder. A small tab broke off and left it in run. Had to disconnect the battery. Got a 20ish dollar cylinder replacement and back on the road
@@stevenkerwin4041 Many cars will run with the battery disconnected once started, though you should never do this as it invites some high voltage transients.
I converted a dynamo charging system on an old Komatsu forklift to an alternator, for cheapness and future proofing the machine, and had this same problem, back feeding the ignition through the alternator exciter wire, just enough to keep the stop solenoid open, about 7volts, so I added a diode to the exciter wire, feeding to the alternator and been running for 8 months now problem free. 😁
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Thanks for the upload, and confirmation from somebody with greater diagnostic knowledge than me, that what I did is going to be OK, . I learn a lot from your systematic problem solving.
You must put flux on the wires before you tin the wires. Then the solder will flow and stick. Be sure it is rosin flux for electrical and not acid flux for plumbing.
Back to the drawing board. I'd slowly go through all the instructions again and even seek out professional videos on YT for the Holley Sniper EFI install on that generation of Jeep. Something wasn't done right with the initial install. Cool CJ-7 tho.
If the vehicle doesn't shut off, it means replace the ignition switch. That's what a parts changer will do. I am surprised it wasn't replaced before you got there.
The alternator idiot light feed and the ignition feed need to be switched separately at the ignition switch. Old school stuff. The idiot light is fed 12v from the ignition sw and grounded through the alternator VR when not operating. The alternator VR outputs + voltage on this circuit. + on + to the idiot light and it does not illuminate. The diode repair does not address the improperly wired ignition source.
Back when I was a wipper snapper that play in the steering was normal🤣Also I would have put another piece of heatshrink over the diaode & the wiring just because it is bound to go through water/mud & that then becomes a potential failure point in the middle of nowhere & customer may not know how to fix it.Cheers Ivan.
I had to make a daisy chain of diodes to control a generic transformer to run the neon tube trunk lid brake light on my MarkVIII. I hammered flat every other diode leg and crimped the flattened legs around the round legs. That was years ago and still lighting up the streets at night like a ufo.
What I do when I have to use a butt connector is put a smaller piece of shrink tube over each end of the wire then put a piece large enough to go over the butt connector on one side. Then I pack my butt connector with grease (Vasoline, axle grease, or dielectric), crimp it on, then slide the larger shrink tube over it, shove the little ones in the end, and heat the whole thing up. That makes a nice, fully sealed/waterproof, and strain relieved splice.
Those were not Jeep's best days. If I remember correctly, that was about the time AMC was going belly up and the future of Jeep was very much in doubt. It was also when the military was opening up development of a new troop carrier, which GMC won and took away most of the market for Jeep. It was a very dark time for the brand.
Reminds me of a hack job on a flight test. Something was staying on after they tried turning it off. I asked them to draw a circuit schematic of their hack. Looked at it for a minute and said put a diode in a certain spot. Problem solved. A backup battery was backfeeding the gate on a mosfet. Like I said, a hack.
I've seen plenty of old wires that dont like solder, my solution would be to have a longer exposed part, scrape it with a sharp knife and then twist with the part you want to solder, also use a slightly higher temperature and make sure you use leaded solder (I don't know about the US but in the EU they will only sell unleaded solder so I import mine from china).
Great videos! I love your diagnostics and running down the offending part (parts Canon) or wiring!!!! I'm a little confused about where you had your jumper placed. I realize this is a 1985. That appears to be the older style ford Starter relay (Jeep was famous for using anyone's parts). The terminal you had your jumper on, I thought was the 12v momentary bypass (vs the 9v coil running voltage) to the ignition and only hot while cranking. Is that the way this one operated? I've never seen one operate differently. After solid state ignition ford eliminated this terminal.
Back in the good old days. The after market high performance ignition system kits always came with a separate isolation diode. Most people would not read instruction about installing the diode. Consequently the engine would not shutoff. There is enough residual voltage created by the alternator to power the coil and create a spark at the plugs. Yes, the diode not being installed is the problem.
Miss those days 👊🏻
I suspect that the brown wire goes to the charging indication bulb in the instrument cluster.
This was my recollection too. The kit probably came with a diode or the instructions mention installing one, but more than 50% of people don't read instructions and that is probably even higher among auto mechanics for some reason. It seems to be an ego thing.
@@ehsnils The lack of charge indicator commonly known as the idiot light.😁
The brown wire is for the gen light. When charging the bulb has + voltage on both leads, and light goes off. When alt is not charging the alt supply's a ground and light turns on. Should have found another switched 12volt circuit to power the FI.
No it not It's part of the ignition system
Yes, scrappy I was thinking the same.
Well that was kind of the problem... Alternator back feeding though the charge bulb and providing the 5V to ALL the other ignition circuits including the EFI turn on wire 😅
Appears to be a GM alternator. Those were known to have a bad diode trio that would cause the gen light to glow dim. Super easy to replace. @@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
Yes scrappy, I thought the same
The primary issue is that the I terminal on the coil should only have voltage during cranking. It should not have voltage before or after cranking. It is commonly used to provide full voltage to the ignition system for easier starting. Resolve that, and you resolve the issue.
The voltage you found at the alternator wasn't direct ignition voltage. The brown wire connects to the indicator bulb in the cluster through a resistor. The other side of the bulb is connected to ignition voltage. That is why the voltage drops significantly when you touch a simple test light to the brown wire. There isn't enough current available from the alternator, through the resistor/bulb, to keep the engine running.
The problem was, and still is, a hacked wiring job. There was an additional back-feed because of this, which also wasn't enough to keep the engine running at key off. That was evident by the voltage on the solenoid's I terminal at key on. That low-current back-feed, in combination with the normal alternator back-feed, was enough to keep the engine running. Cut either, and it shuts off normally.
You unintentionally added a new hack to the mix, instead of fixing the original problem. The charge warning lamp cannot indicate an over-charge condition now because of it. Thankfully, that is rare.
As others have said that brown wire was to turn off the charging light on the dash. When you have battery power on both sides of the light, the bulb turns off.
The diode will fix the problem. Next question is, does this vehicle have a charge light or possibly a volt meter?
It may have an ammeter, but that is probably a shunt under the hood with two small wires from the shunt to the meter in the dash to read charge. That's why voltmeters were used instead of the shunted ammeter.
Good one Ivan.
IVAN, Your diagnostic skill is top shelf for most any vehicle out there. Fixing this jeep is almost childs play for you. Nicely done Ivan.
The brown wire connects downstream the alt/gen light and a half wave rectifier inside the alt. If you looked on a scope you would see the 6v is pretty ugly. The purpose is to self power the field in the rotor of the alternator and place opposing voltage to the dash light to extinguish it. Your diode fix is reasonable. Isolating the FI system completely from that portion of the ignition circuit would be better. Converting a points GM to hei in the early 70s would yeild the same result. Depends on the car whether you can find a swit h ignition source that is not connected to that feedback circuit or whether you must use a diode or relays to isolate.
As someone already said, that is a GM alternator and were known to back feed. MSD used to supply a diode in the kit to be installed if the engine continued to run after key was shut off. It sounds like it has a dead hole when it's running.
I remember that . That’s a good memory of the good old days 👊🏻
A really nice EFI conversion kit with a 15 cent installation. The horror, the horror.
Rats nest wiring.
I remember back in the day my dad having old junkers that would stay running after you shut it off. The whole car would shake until it finally died. Sometimes, if it was really stubborn, you'd have to go out back and cover the exhaust with your shoe. Good times.
Dieseling?
@@billmalec Yeah. Way before fuel injection. Also, the key was usually a flathead screwdriver.
Pre-ignition.
Like billmalec said, dieseling, Due to carbon build up on the piston and combustion chamber in the cylinder head. Did someone say the good ole days?
The engine will shut off in drive then you can put it in park...
I think the Altanator field wire goes to the dash light that has ignition power to one side and the other side goes to the field wire on the alternator. That’s why there was 5 volts when key was off because the lamp was acting like a resistor. I think the diode probably should go before the dash light so the light will illuminate when alternator is not charging.
Nailed It.
Please explain how this series circuit would behave any differently if installing the diode before vs after the charge lamp 🤔😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsnow that I think about your right it won’t make any difference.
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics With the key on, voltage leaves the ignition switch, goes through the alt dash lamp, then through the brown wire and grounded through the alternator. When the engine is started and the alternator starts putting out voltage, the ground goes away and the lamp on the dash goes out since there is no longer a ground, and you just have voltage from both directions. Something was wired incorrectly with the conversion kit to allow voltage to flow to more than the ignition switch, or there maybe something wrong with the ignition switch.
be nice :) lol@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
IVAN, YOUR SCIENTIFIC APPROACH IS SUPREME AND SO ADVACED BASED ON SCIENCE. POWER TO YOU. YOUR SOLUTION TOOK CARE OF THE ISSUE GOT THE OWNER AND THE SHOP TOTALLY OUT OF TROUBLE. IT MUST BE YOUR ENGINEERING BACKGROUND AND TRAINING. YOUR INTIAL JOB YOU LEFT IS THE BEST DECISION YOU EVER MADE TO YOURSELF.
We converted early 1960s model forklifts from generator or externally regulated alternators to Delco SI 3 wire internally regulated alternators. We would encounter the same problem when connecting the control wire with the ignition switch if a resistance wire wasn't used. It could also be solved by replacing the ignition switch with one that had an accessory terminal that wasn't connected to the ignition in the off position and connecting the control from the alternator to acc.
appreciate your methodical approach to finding the issues at hand.nice work ivan.its why we keep watching bud.
Great video Ivan. Does that jeep have a rod knock? Wow it sounds terrible.
good work, the brown wire is for charging light or resistor, that what make the alternator start charging, the i terminal on the solenoid is to bypass the resistor for the coil when cranking the engine, on older system with point
Classic. The old school charge lamp feedback keeping it running. The engineers back then expect the coil to draw enough to pull it down.
Who am I to say but, when you used the butt connector on the diode, I thought it best to fold over the diode wire so there would be 2 strands inside each end of the but connector making a better connection & double the chance to hold its grip. Just a idea. I realize that I am speaking to the diagnosis guru! The unrenounced master of diag! You always nail it & that is why I always follow your work! Keep up the awesome diagnosis Ivan!!!
U r the MASTER of the one dollar super fix! Great video.....
I had a '54 Ford pick up that I upgraded to 12v alternator. I was a novice at that time. I experienced similar problems working with the correct connection for the exciter wire for the alternator.
I really love your site. Among the sites I watch every time they come out are yours, Eric's and Wes. It looks like that Jeep has no clutch starter lockout, bypassed, or didn't come from the factory. Keep the great, informative videos.
Nice to see you help the (aftermarket) guy !
For a change 👍
Alternator is on its way out, should charge without that wire (possibly the 2 alternator wires are swapped)
Ivan: My experience comes from the vintage late 1960's Ford world and the back feed issue with this Jeep also afflicts some aftermarket ignition systems there as well. The factory points/condensor ignition system on the older Fords includes an inline resister wire (pink) in the underdash wiring harness that effectiely steps down the voltage to the coil to keep the coil from getting too hot and the ignition points from burning up prematurely. The "I" terminal on the starter solenoid momentarily sends full battery voltage (12V+) to the coil only when the starter is engaged to assist in starting. Once the engine starts and the key returns to the "run" posistion, the 12V+ feed at the "I" terminal is interrutpted and the "regular" coil voltage ( often sometimes less than 8V+ If I recall correctly) back feeds to the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid. Aftermarket ignition modules such as the Pertronix Ignitor I need something on the order of a minimum of 8 volts to trigger the ignitor module. Some older stock harnesses develop higher resistance over time and drop below that threshold, requiring a resistor wire bypass to work reliably. Occasionally a DIY owner will cobble together something that may result in a similar back feed issue you saw with the Jeep leading to ignition miss and stalling as the ignition circuit builds additional resistance as the heat under the hood rises. Regards, Jeff
Aside from its problems that is a really nice looking Jeep!
Hi Ivan GM had that problem back in the 70's, the back feed I believe fed though the alternator light on the dash. I think the fix was the same as you add a diode to block the power path. I think that the internal regulator now has a back feed diode in it. possible that the regulator has a problem.
Rich
Pre-Chrysler. Notice the square ignition key.
Fun to see the old AMC 6cyl ..... so much of that is still evident on my XJ even after Chrysler and Daimler got into things.
I installed brand new wiring all around in a Vickies. In the situation where the vehicle wouldn't shut off was fixed by the supplied diode that goes into alternator wire that has to be installed. That prevents backfeeding voltage to ignition switch.
I know that looks like my work, but I promise I've been nowhere near PA. Thanks Ivan!
@19:05 (Crimping that fine wire) fold the wire back about 1/2in onto it's outer sleeve then crimp. It will be a lot more secure. ↪
The answer was posted early on.
But you will get that backfeed with any conventional alternator, because thats how they cause the charge warning lamp to extinguish - battery voltage both sides of it.
The change here is that with the aftermarket kit, the only load on the ignition supply is the relay coil.
However with a conventional setup it tries to feed the coil primary but there's too much voltage drop across the lamp, it limits the coil primary current to maybe 100-200mA and theres going to be no spark, the engine will stop.
18:45 - no wonder crimping has a bad reputation with a crimp tool like that.
Isn't that what most DIYers use?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
I cannot speak for everyone else, but in MY case as a DIYer, then I can loudly say NO, I don't use a crimper like that!
As a diy-er i use a yato 2256 crimper never had one fail 😁
Ratchet crimpers are good but can be bulky to use.
That crimp tool looks better than the china crap I use. Ivan has converted me to a solder man. I use a short unshielded butt connector with the wires cut long enough to solder on one side then heat shrink over the whole thing.
This reminds me of my 86' Dodge Lancer. The battery stopped charging and I changed the alternator. However the problem was the voltage regulator which was in the PCM because why not. Great video Ivan.
Another great video Ivan! Bought a TS101 per you link and super impressed. Thank you!
It's a little beast! 😎
All AMC vehicles with electronic ignition had a dedicated ignition feed for this exact reason. Use the right wire and you don’t need a diode.
That is correct he could have just clipped the brown wrie and been done with it since the original Ignition system is not there
@@SHSPVR
Not quite, the brown wire NEEDS power for the alternator to actually charge!
@@trevorvanbremen4718 I check the alternator it turn out the one we bought is self voltage regulator so it doesn't require a that circuit all.
Can’t solder to it, maybe fusable link. Metal type, ??? Nice fix. Gotta love a project car!
Nice fix for a Bad or no diode in alternator or the original ignition module had one! The Sniper was in my crosshairs until you said you already found an alternator issue.
Brown wire goes in series with the lamp for the alternator on the dash.
Steering all over the road...
My 1993 Chevy C1500 had a seriously sloppy steering feel. I pulled out the rag joint and replaced it with a Jeep U-joint sub-shaft (a common modification). It was a very worthwhile improvement!
A couple of years prior, I had done a complete frame-out front end refresh so there was no question the rag joint was now the big culprit to the steering slop feel.
Nice repair, good t-shooting. I think you should have folded the diode leads onto them selves, same for the wires. Being thin, they would crimp better with double wires. That's been my experience. Thanks for the video.
Stay-Brite silver solder kit, with its special flux may work on that wire.
Reminds me of my old CJ’s although no aftermarket electronics!!!👍
There used to be a fix for this issue by just wiring in a resistor to the brown wire. The original charge bulb or gauge was enough resistance to prevent the back feed problem
I remember my '81 Olds Cutlass had a removable diode (and possibly voltage regulator) mounted on the side of the alternator. I think my '77 Pacer (American Motors and related to the Jeep) had something similar. They were easy to replace. I did mine as standard maintenance. You could also replace the bearing set on the alternator. With proper maintenance they could run a long time. Later cars didn't have that option anymore.
Hopefully I can shed a little light on this type of starter setup.... I haven't really worked on jeeps much but that setup is basically the same as Ford used for decades.... the "S" terminal is the one supplied power to close the solenoid the "I" terminal should be factory wired in to the ignition coil circuit after any ballast resistors, to supply full battery voltage during starting, because the coil normally would receive roughly 6 volts running. The thought was power draw of the starter could drop the power low enough to be hard too start or not start at all. Your solution is not a bad one by any means and I have no idea what else Chrysler Corp. may have used that terminal for from the wiring they may have used it to also 'wake-up' the voltage regulator. I suspect who ever set up the wiring instructions wasn't aware of that use because many vehicles never used it but since jeep was frequently using Ford ignition systems and carburetors at that time it is likely that's why they did it....
Side note back in the days of electric chokes on carburetors most Ford's used a choke that operated on roughly 7½volts *A/C* they used the stator circuit on the alternator and no other wiring or switches.... because they were only powered when the engine was running and the power supplied was changed by engine speed meaning the faster the engine ran the quicker the choke opened....
I work on crown fork lifts, one of their Harness has two zener diode, they use butt connectors also. Wish I could understand the circuit as well as you do.
The wire you were trying to solder to was probably a nichrome resistance to help prevent the alternator from back feeding the ignition however the aftermarket ignition system was to sensitive for this solution. Therefore the factory should have used the diode instead of the resistance wire.
Very interesting!
Or an aluminum alloy.
Texas? You should have let me know. We would have had you over for barbecue and a Shiner bock.
It can also be plating or a coating for corrosion prevention. It was common back in that era. a sanding or knife to scrape of the surface before soldering.
Ivan that wire that would not tin maybe a resistance wire .Nicrome cannot be soldered
Love the fix. Another brilliant diagnostic.
Most likely that single strand wire was the resistor (resistance wire) that showed in your schematic. Usually that kind of wire is made out of iron and not copper at all so your solder will not tin to it.
Probably aluminum, or nichrome.
Hi Ivan, great video as always. Remember that when installing a diode in series (for any application) there will always be a voltage drop (+/-1.5v)
O2 sensor wire also does not solder well unless you scrape off the nickel plating or use an aggressive acid flux
install a rectifier for prevent back feeding....
msd ignition systems manual will also have you put a diode in the brown wire i know this because our drag car would not shut off with switch off good luck your on the right track
Nice, easy, and cheap. A customers dream
It would be interesting to know if that has a charging light and volt gauge from the factory. Those old Delcotron alts are known for leaking diodes triodes. So though it will charge ( may not put out rated amps but still should produce good system voltage) the light will be on dimly. Depending on which diode leaks, it can cause a backfeed through the ignition system. I 1st saw that on my grandfather's 75 Olds. The light would come on dimly and the car wouldn't shut off via key unless the connector for the alt was unplugged. A new alt fixed it.
Nice detective work! Wires that won't take solder at all are probably aluminum, it is a cheapo cost saving measure found in low quality wiring. Either way, butt connector or solder, that harness is going to be flapping around a lot though...I hope the owner ties it up so it doesn't experience strain failure. Assuming that thing gets driven at all. I probably would have looked further up the harness to try to find a point in the wire that wouldn't be jiggling around as much?
Agree; would have used a professional type crimper(surprised he does not have one as he does so much electronic work) and a couple of heat shrink tubes to go over the connections, as those "old style-one crimp" pliers will usually work themselves loose.
exactly. you took the comment right out of my mouth. early '80's had the copper shortage (remember thats when pennies went to copper clad zinc)and i ran into more than one vehicle with aluminum wiring. some was actually copper clad aluminum. and yes that diode package in a wiring harness may break the leads off from vibration.
@@richardcranium5839 In the communications industry here in AUS they used aluminium in large cables that had at least 2,800 pairs of wires ,after about ten years they had turned to dust literally had a hell of a job replacing them could not identify any of the 2 wire circuits.
I had the same thing happen when I put a 60 amp Delcotron alternator on a Farmall M. A diode fixed the problem. A small light bulb will also work.
Great work. Nice to see your subs are increasing. Deservedly so. Hopefully, you hit 200k by year end👍
Thank you for your support, Rob! Let me know when you're back in PA, we'll have to catch up :)
I was totally off on my first guess - I thought the ballast resistor and its bypass on the starter solenoid had been miswired and used for the aftermarket ignition source. That solid wire that won't solder is likely Nichrome. It was used on vehicles with ammeters instead of an idiot light for the alternator. Normally, the power would go thru the idiot light to provide current to get the alternator field going, but with no idiot light, some resistance was needed - Nichrome has some resistance.
The single strand wire may be a resistor wire. Old school. The alternator trigger wire was fed through the idiot light from the ignition accessory terminal through a resistor wire. The wire was usually looped up and taped in the wire bundle behind the dash to meet the required value. Look up a 1973 c10 pick up alternator wiring diagram.
Way back I got the urge for a Jeep. I test drove a one year old beautiful white CJ7. The canvas top made lots of wind noise and it took both hands to keep it in the middle of the lane. That killed my interest in Jeeps forever.
I remember having to do the diode trick on my old 64 Chevy when I went from an external regulated alternator to an internal
I love these interesting cases!! Great job Ivan!
I have seen similar problems like that. I had to put a diode on an older Chevy feed wire back to the dash. The generator light would stay on, had a back flow to the dash, diode stopped the problem.
Is that engine knocking or is it just the audio? It sounds like it's getting tired. There shouldn't be any voltage coming back out on that lead but the diode is the best fix! Good job! Thanks Ivan!
Sounded horrible. Couldn't tell if it was rod knocking or just pinging like a machine gun.
Nice fix the wire was obviously the feed to energies the alternator and once it’s turning produce voltage so was back feeding, I’m pleased the wire wouldn’t take solder as just a soldier joint is no good on its own has to be mechanical as well as solder otherwise could break free with vibrations
Ivan, it’s not a Wrangler Renegade. It’s a CJ7 Laredo. Also, you need the wiring diagram from AMC, not Chrysler.
It said RENEGADE on the hood so that's what I called it 😜
I was thinking the red wire was for alt feild and brown was for lamp. I thought the red was switched on the old GM 2 wire alternator but its been a while since ive touched one that old.
Using diodes to prevent back feeds is ok but it does create a .6 volt drop when conducting . This shouldn't matter if voltage isn't critical like in this application . That engine and aftermarket ignition sounds terrible pinging very badly something is severely wrong timing wise and won't be long before detonation will do some severe permanent damage in its current form . My friend who is a very competent mechanic put a similar system on his 1990 land cruiser with the old school 3f carburettor engine. It was a vast improvement over the original distributor giving very accurate ignition timing over all the engines power outputs and revs and can be tuned via a laptop with software that comes with the kit .He is still running a carburettor but single point fuel injection add ons are available with closed loop capabilities with oxygen sensors on the exhaust. These systems when installed and tuned correctly really bring a old school engine into the modern world , he is considering this total upgrade but like everything it isn't cheap. I like it that you attempt all repairs with a open mind seeing that s##tfight of a installation would scare most mechanics off and the shop is doing the right thing the owner needs to find a specialist in these systems to sort it out. 22:25
Alternator was my guess in the beginning
Bypassed or bad diode or had a light and they bypassed it
Been there, done that many long years ago doing an engine conversion swap on a old Ford truck. Put in a newer 351M engine, and in the process the diode came off the wiring harness. Started up just fine, just couldn't shut it off! We ended up using old fashioned nylon spark plug wire pliers to pull the coil wire off the ignition to shut it off (and got zapped for our efforts). Once we got it shut off, my dad commented that he'd seen the diode and picked it up - did I suppose it was the culprit? Duh!
The other side of the lamp goes to a positive (15) ignition switched. So when the engine is running the lamp receives 12 volts on both terminals and suhts off. That's the work of the lamp on the dash with the battery symbol and that's how old cars work.
Back in the early '80's I had a customer bring in a late '70's Ford, station wagon I think, that ran fine but wouldn't shut off when the key was turned off. If you opened the throttle a bit it would die but otherwise would idle forever with no problem. Ask the customer what had happened prior and found out the old battery died and all they had was a Chevy battery. The pos and neg are backwards from the Ford and the ground cable was too short so they moved it from the engine block to the frame. Installed new Ford battery and put neg cable back on engine block, fixed. Never did understand that one.
Ahh the magic diode. I had this same issue on a luttron lighting system, damn Occ sensor would feed back through each other, Also keep in mind folks these diodes also have a PRV voltage and bias voltages. Great vid and jeep my buddy had one back in 86. Should just leave it 85.
I also thought Diode, a few seconds before you said it, but the word Relay also appeared out of the grey matter lol.
Is the alternator wire a warning light wire but the bulb is way too high a wattage so a bit extra current is going to the altenator WL terminal.
I could be talking crap, and my logic is for old lucas alternators with leaking diodes.
I would cover the diode with heatshrink tubing because electrical tape has a habit of unwrapping itself unless you fit a cable tie to the finishing end if the electrical tape !
You probably know this but if you don’t you can buy diodes that fit fuse holders and potted diodes that mount to the chassis and have spade outputs.
The diodes leads could fail due to vibration causing a paperclip effect.
Good point. By paperclip effect I am guessing you mean just comes loose??
@@sheerwillsurvival2064 He means if you bend the paperclip back and forth eventually it will break.
@@scotts4125 thanks I never heard that one . Everyday I learn something on these channels. And it’s usually from comments by people a lot smarter than me. I spent way too much time in the military
That diode wont last 2 minutes. Best practice would be to find a non vibration point in the wire, behind instrument cluster, or extend the wires where he did cut, up to the inner fender and fit a diode module. Components like those are meant for non moving circuit boards, not inline with soft wire.
@@ChrisEngland-yc4wy excellent advice
I saw a 16 BRN at the A/C Compressor (COORD21E)
These older alternators send power back out through the charge light in the dash as the resistor in order to determine how much power is needed to charge the battery. When the ignition switch is keyed on, it lights the charge light also telling you the battery is draining. When the alternator starts charging, it equals out the current flow through the charge light and makes it go out. This could cause issues back feeding power back into the ignition system when the key is switched off is the reason why they install a diode. Many people used to just tie the two sense wires together and the alternator would charge at full capacity until it boils out the battery and burns the unit up. Had a similar issue when a buddy bought a converted 12v old ford tractor that used a GM alternator. I had to wire in a light bulb into the circuit and he told me that lamp stays lit and it drains the battery down. You have to rev the snot out of the engine in order for it to spin fast enough to engage the alternator but he didn't understand. The purpose of the lamp was telling him the current is flowing away from the battery and not into it causing the battery to run down. Hard to explain to some that dont understand how electronics works.
So fascinating, again. Great video.
Thanks for the videos. I invented /patented the screw in piercing probe years ago. Remember to liquid tape the hole in the wiring jacket after piercing a hole to reduce water induced wire corrosion. I’ve seen on an mis-wired vehicle a spinning radiator fan generate electricity (after a key off) and keep the ignition circuit powered and the engine running until the fan slowed down (almost quit spinning).
I had that happen with my 2006 Wrangler. My situation was the ignition key cylinder. A small tab broke off and left it in run. Had to disconnect the battery.
Got a 20ish dollar cylinder replacement and back on the road
My car runs with the battery disconnected. I guess to stop it I would pull the injector wires.
@@stevenkerwin4041 Many cars will run with the battery disconnected once started, though you should never do this as it invites some high voltage transients.
@@ferrumignis G . F .
@@dottieobrien2606 Sorry, no idea. Maybe try whole words?
I converted a dynamo charging system on an old Komatsu forklift to an alternator, for cheapness and future proofing the machine, and had this same problem, back feeding the ignition through the alternator exciter wire, just enough to keep the stop solenoid open, about 7volts, so I added a diode to the exciter wire, feeding to the alternator and been running for 8 months now problem free. 😁
Perfect 👌
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Thanks for the upload, and confirmation from somebody with greater diagnostic knowledge than me, that what I did is going to be OK, . I learn a lot from your systematic problem solving.
I ran across this. The alternator was bad. Replaced it and it was a fix .
Just needs a diode trio to fix. Easy repair.
Nice fix Ivan! Did you check to make sure there is no excessive parasitic draw when the Jeep is switched off?
Wire could be a resistor wire not uncommon in Chrysler, probably nichrome wire which will not accept solder.
You must put flux on the wires before you tin the wires. Then the solder will flow and stick. Be sure it is rosin flux for electrical and not acid flux for plumbing.
Back to the drawing board.
I'd slowly go through all the instructions again and even seek out professional videos on YT for the Holley Sniper EFI install on that generation of Jeep.
Something wasn't done right with the initial install.
Cool CJ-7 tho.
If the vehicle doesn't shut off, it means replace the ignition switch. That's what a parts changer will do. I am surprised it wasn't replaced before you got there.
The alternator idiot light feed and the ignition feed need to be switched separately at the ignition switch. Old school stuff. The idiot light is fed 12v from the ignition sw and grounded through the alternator VR when not operating. The alternator VR outputs + voltage on this circuit. + on + to the idiot light and it does not illuminate. The diode repair does not address the improperly wired ignition source.
Back when I was a wipper snapper that play in the steering was normal🤣Also I would have put another piece of heatshrink over the diaode & the wiring just because it is bound to go through water/mud & that then becomes a potential failure point in the middle of nowhere & customer may not know how to fix it.Cheers Ivan.
I had to make a daisy chain of diodes to control a generic transformer to run the neon tube trunk lid brake light on my MarkVIII. I hammered flat every other diode leg and crimped the flattened legs around the round legs. That was years ago and still lighting up the streets at night like a ufo.
I presume that wire to the alternator is field winding to a bulb or resistor.
What I do when I have to use a butt connector is put a smaller piece of shrink tube over each end of the wire then put a piece large enough to go over the butt connector on one side. Then I pack my butt connector with grease (Vasoline, axle grease, or dielectric), crimp it on, then slide the larger shrink tube over it, shove the little ones in the end, and heat the whole thing up. That makes a nice, fully sealed/waterproof, and strain relieved splice.
Those were not Jeep's best days. If I remember correctly, that was about the time AMC was going belly up and the future of Jeep was very much in doubt. It was also when the military was opening up development of a new troop carrier, which GMC won and took away most of the market for Jeep. It was a very dark time for the brand.
Thanks Ivan!
Reminds me of a hack job on a flight test. Something was staying on after they tried turning it off. I asked them to draw a circuit schematic of their hack. Looked at it for a minute and said put a diode in a certain spot. Problem solved. A backup battery was backfeeding the gate on a mosfet. Like I said, a hack.
Good diagnosed man!
Well done!
I've seen plenty of old wires that dont like solder, my solution would be to have a longer exposed part, scrape it with a sharp knife and then twist with the part you want to solder, also use a slightly higher temperature and make sure you use leaded solder (I don't know about the US but in the EU they will only sell unleaded solder so I import mine from china).
Great videos! I love your diagnostics and running down the offending part (parts Canon) or wiring!!!! I'm a little confused about where you had your jumper placed. I realize this is a 1985. That appears to be the older style ford Starter relay (Jeep was famous for using anyone's parts). The terminal you had your jumper on, I thought was the 12v momentary bypass (vs the 9v coil running voltage) to the ignition and only hot while cranking. Is that the way this one operated? I've never seen one operate differently. After solid state ignition ford eliminated this terminal.
hmm the "I" terminal stayed hot with the engine running with the key on so not sure...
you should have tried solder paste or flux.