History of WWI Primer 02B*: French Berthiers at War Documentary
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
- Othais and Mae delve into the story of this WWI classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its WWI Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
Additional reading:
candrsenal.com/recommend-read...
Chassepot to Famas: French Military Rifles, 1866-2016
Ian Mccollum
www.headstamppublishing.com/f...
LES FUSILS FRANCAIS A VERROU - DU CHASSEPOT AU F.R. F2
Jean Huon
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Special thanks to:
Ludovic Bertrand
Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
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Animations by Bruno!
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With everything going on in the world I just wanted to say thank you for providing something consistantly to look forward to.
We get it. We also promise no political content unless it affects our ability to make the show.
@@Candrsenal Your political explqanations are as detailed as they need to be and non judgemental. Historically there is a need for the context to be explained, it's why things came about.
Yeah, you guys are seriously amazing and put in so much time and effort into making each video. Thanks for the hard work, it really shows through the high quality of each video!
This! Just hit me I've been watching you guys for years, keep it up! I love the deep dive into the history of these guns!
Amen hommie
*Sees Chassepot to Famas credit*
Ah, I see you are doing God's work.
About that Polish service - Berthiers were never officialy adopted but after the great war ended the Polish Army in France - better known as The Blue Army, a volunteer unit fighting on the western front - was allowed to return to newly independent Poland and they were allowed to take their rifles with them. The soldiers liked them so much that in the twenties the government bought much more. Polish army soon started standardizing on Mausers, but ultimately they served even during WWII in some homeguard units.
These videos are just getting Berthier and Berthier.
- I'll see you out.
02B*, sounds like Enfield has influenced episode numbering.
The British*
It was a recommendation under the new Lebel episode
Ian McCollum: Oh my.
If you haven't stabbed your ceiling a few times you're not a real collector
That's what swords are for.
Have you ever stuck your halberd into a beam in your ceiling? It's easier than one might guess. :-D
"one click up and aim for the crotch" - literally the official AK battle sight doctrine
Is it bad I find myself chuckling every time I hear war were declared?
John Kilcer no it isn’t. I’d love to see a montage of all the silly final sequences.
Having a mosin with matching bayonet. I appreciate the analogy of them being as big as a javelin/spear.
Liking the series, keep them coming. One tiny point on the French names: "cie." in a french company name is an abbreviation for "companie", essentially the same as "co." for "company" in English.
Thank you for the effort to bring us this interesting weapons and history to understand the historical period Otais and Mae.
Second, love this Berthier 1916 carbine, maybe underrated against Mauser 98, SMLE, Springfield 1903 and Enfield Patterns; but the 5 rounds clip and the very smart and cheap system to retain the empty clip aside the total length, if I was living on this period of time I absolutely I'll buy one of them in the surplus market to be my improved Tracker Carbine during the African Hunting Safaris times and other Wild Outdoors Explorations because now you have a more easy to remind system to keep your En-Block Clips and don't lose it at mud, sand or every harsh terrain condition and have the faster reloading of this system, 8mm. Lebel think as the current Rifle Cartridges of the time have the enough power to deal with 1 precise shot against African Big Five and other Top Dangerous Trophies having the emergency choice to keep shooting if rams against you those animals instead maybe the more slower rate of fire single-shot blackpowder surplus rifles like Gras or Martini and finally being an important big empire France in those Wild Places, have the option to buy cheap surplus ammo and carry a lot.
I don't know if is safe to make emergency single round loading, but for me is the perfect cheap hunting carbine of the period against 98 & 93 Mausers, Lee's, 1903s & 1914/17s and being superior against Komissions, Kropatcheks, Winchesters and more important, against Mannlichers and Carcanos En-Blocs even being contemporary weapons; this 1916 Berthier and a Pair of Full Tang Bowie Knives, one longer and the other shorter, will be my bang for your buck EDC kit in those places.
3 rounds is better than one, 5 is definitely better than three. but that clip extraction on the later model is a bit weird. I love these old military rifles! Keep up tthe good work!
All together now children:
"Thank you Mr Ian!"
Go buy his book.
We literally can't! And that's a good thing!
Now to wait for a second pressing.
The two of you are just incredible, doing these in-depth videos for love of the game and education... Keep it up Othias and Mae!!!
I thank Othias everyday for enlightening me on the Bridgeport Remington factory's military history. Everyone in Bridgeport just talks about just before they closed
Do the horsey stuff!!!!! Mae on a Calvary charge!
That would be really cool!
Due to budget cuts, it's Mae superimposed atop Crozier, galloping into the great greenscreen yonder.
Was there any other time when a major army went to war with their colonial troops armed with the best and most modern equipment while the home country army had the last generation and less effective rifle?
the was the time where the Italians sold the best most modern guns they had to the Ethiopians and then had the troops they sent to invade using the oldier inferior weapons
The German Army had the Gewehr 88 which was sub-par compared to the rifles Mauser produced for other countries between 1889 and 1897. The Germans got the famous Gewehr 98 eventually.
@@BHuang92 but that is different since noone who got mauser rifles was a colony until the 98. mauser was a private company selling to whoever was interested
Not quite the same don't forget the Norwegians using Krupps cannon to break up the German landings in Oslo
@@luansagara It's the second closest example
First, let me thank Othais and Mae as well as everyone who assists them in producing these in depth reviews of vintage weapons. I've been watching them for some time and find the episodes very enjoyable and informative! Second, when Mae is discussing the difference in recoil between the Berthier carbine and long rifle, it occurred to me that in many episodes in which Mae is firing shoulder weapons, she is often attired in either a shirt with what I assume is a sleeveless top underneath, or occasionally a sleeveless shirt--not the standard battle attire a typical WW1 soldier would be wearing; namely, either a wool tunic, or a tunic with a wool great coat. While Mae does a great job, I think being attired in something similar to actual battlefield clothing during live firing might alter perceptions about things like recoil and butt-plate shapes, etc. Just sayin'. Otherwise I love these episodes.
When you shoot alot of guns it's pretty easy to notice the difference in recoil regardless of what you wear. With some of these rifles I surprised she doesn't use a leather shoulder pad. I know I would. Those steel buttplates can hurt
I'm impressed how your French t'as gotten better with time. Dont be too harsh on yourself. Your French is quite understandable :)
I'm enjoying these updated videos.
Literally just finished watching the last Berthier video, excellent timing guys
Must watch content on RUclips - bravo sir! As a historical fiction author this kind of research is a big help.
Love seeing Ian's book being used for reference. It's kinda fun.
First thousand views.... HELL YEAH thanks for redoing these old videos to your new standard they are great!
Berthiers have some of the strangest and compelling curves for a WWI bolt action. It's absolutely slender, but pregnant.
I'm always amazed by how the engineers working on these designs work out how to make the system more efficient. The design of the Berthier with the 5 round clip is very slick.
Love this channel! Watching this episode cleaning some of my rifles straight from the range
I just restarted this playlist again, keeps me sane while working from home, and keeps me from getting to frustrated with the news. You guys are awesome, all I want to see next is a tour of the gun room! Is it organized by year? Country?
You do a great job! Love these videos. You guys are very likable! Wish I had some people I could talk about old guns every so often. God bless.
Brilliantly done, as always. Thank you.
Berthier m16 carbines and rifles were delivered to french troops respectively from sping 1918 and automn 1918.
Othias, do you know what the average French infantryman thought of his Berthier, with its 3 round capability, when he saw his British colleagues with the 10 round magazines on their SMLE No.1 Mk.3 rifles?
I think " Well i am trained with this Rifle, i used it maybe since the Start of my Military Service, and this is what we have, so we make the Best of it, because we have far bigger concerns and one of them are the Germans invading us and advancing towards Paris, and also the death and massive Suffering"...You do not fight a war with the tools you wish you have, but the one which you already have..
@@geanycccp what? Dude this is a genuine question and soliders complain about their rifles, and other pieces of kit all the time during and after war, litterally brought up all the time in this series. I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers that had grips about the capacity and weren't just, well I'll fight with what I have, no complaints, VIVE LA FRANCE! Soliders constantly compare what they have to their enemies and allies.
@@anameofsomesort959 we;; in ww1 french soldiers in vast majority prefered the lebel to anything else...they had it for a long time they knew those well and loved them
@@anameofsomesort959 Yes after the war, they did complain when they knew and were informed about many types of rifles and Magazine Capacity, and when they were not in a Situation of life and death....But in the war, you fight with what you have..
Wilson Laidlaw I would wager most French (and every other nation’s) troops didn’t know much about anything other than what they used.
But nationalism, propaganda, and not having the perspective, most probably were more than happy with what they had. Look at the WWII British Army, fighting alongside Americans with Garands (objectively a much better rifle for general infantry usage, in a whole other league from the No 4) but most were quite happy with their rifles.
The look on Mae's face when she can get a horse and that it's tax deductible since it's for work.
43:22 That is what the Soviets and later Russians did with AKs, they had a battle zero of 300m for 7.62 and 400m for 5.45, although it will shoot high, you are expected to aim for the belt. That way, unless you are engaging past expected distances(300-400m), you can expect to hit a dude at any reasonably distance with one setting just by aiming for the belt.
*Mmmmm*, I crave the adrenaline rush of having only 3 rounds in my rifle when fritz has 5 in his when I jump into his trench...
Thank you ! Has a history buff ( read fanatic) l love the information you have given us . Not just what was done but also why . Most people don't realize how much small decisions will effect not only local, but world history as well . Thank you especially for showing the older map of French Indochina. The map accurately shows North Vietnam as Annom , a completely separate nation from what we called South Vietnam. They were only coupled under the banner of Fr. Indochina. If this history had been understood in the 60's by citizens of the U.S. , our own recent political history may have been completely different.
True. Indochina was a combination of Cochinchina, Cambodia, Annam and Tonkin.
it's so nice to hear you talk casually about guns :)
14:10
We had some good times, ears, I'll miss you....
Keep it up, I really appreciate these
Hi , a frenchy here , I thinks there is a problem with your Berthier 07/15 , you seems to have the late ( 1916 ) rear sight with an early blade front sight. Have a nice day ! PL.C
"Every single model... Until war were declared."
Nice, got me there.
Thank you for your content
Stop reading comments and go buy Ian's book.
Despite all his problem the 07/15 is the most elegant rifle of WW1, maybe the best looking in general.
It is extremely impressive that you are going back and redoing your own work because you feel like you can do it better.
I also like the fact that I also think you're partly doing this to annoy the people waiting for the 1911 episode. 😉
What's a 1911? Lmao
@@womble321 Who cares? :) Me, I’m waiting for the Schwarzlose M07 episode.
@@womble321 Some kind of shootgun methinks
@@planescaped tbh with so many armchair experts around would a 1911 episode be worth the trouble? One slip up and they will never hear the end of it.
"Episode" like it will only be one, surely you jest. :D
it's 10 pm I have been up for over 24 hours but fuck it I've been waiting 2 weeks for this vid.
if you find a radium sight it will be long gone anyway. The radioactive half-life is long enough but the phosphorescent paint that works with it will be degraded
"like a little goldfish poop" that should be a shirt
"If you're close enough to stick-em, you're close enough to shoot-em" (Willie and Joe)
Hey guys... your content is really great. Thanks for your hard work. Any chance you’d ever considered filming in 4K rather than 1080? It would do your channel justice as a lot of people now view on big screen 4K TVs and it will also help you future-proof your videos for higher res screens in the future.
$32 in 1915 worth in 2020 dollars = $814.17
250,000 rifles x $814.17 each = $203,542,500 million
I own a Delaunay Belleville 07-15 sadly though it has the 1920 thick front sight and deep U rear notch sights that was adopted after the war. But it has not been upgraded to the 1932 N cartridge. I also got a reworked Chatellerault M93 Mle 1886 Lebel with a MAS 1915 barrel probably for grenade launching purposes since the Lebel was more rugged and didn't cause stock damage like that of the Berthier rifles when employed in that role. Then I got a numbers matching unaltered 1892 Artillery Musketoon made by Chatellerault.
Those bayonets are the awesome...a bayonet special would be a blast
Ohhhhhh ! I guess that first coffee in the morning will be a large!
Ladies and gentlemen, I have a hot take for you all. If I was given the option during WWI to choose what rifle or carbine I wanted to take into battle with me, I would go with the Berthier Mle. 1907/15 M16 Long Rifle. Before anyone gets butthurt by me not picking the SMLE No. 1 MkIII* or the Gewehr 1898, please let me explain why I feel so inclined to my decision. Personally, I’ve been a fan of WWI since my middle school days and so many of its aspects have intrigued me for years. One of those aspects is the wide selection of antique Old and New World rifles that were used during it. The French rifles and carbines truly stand out to me above the rest, regardless of people’s opinions on their history or technological problems. Now, let’s get onto the rifle I’m taking with me into the poppy fields.
Being an M16 model Berthier, it’s already subject to quite a few upgrades over the previous Berthier models and the Lebel Mle. 1886 M93 that was standard issue for the French Army. The wooden handguard on top of the barrel means I’ll be less likely to burn my hands when holding the rifle by that part of it, whether by simply carrying it with me that way or during bayonet fighting. The chunky M16 sights give me quicker sight alignment and target acquisition with the large part of the front sight and finite sighting for longer ranges with the tiny notch on top. The extended 5 round en bloc clip magazine gives me a boost over the 3 round clips and brings me up to snuff with a lot of other rifles at the time. Even if I don’t have access to 5 round clips, the 3 rounders work just fine in this gun. The magazine ejection port trapdoor gives me increased protection against mud clogging up the magazine.
Then we have the somewhat overlooked and “negative” aspects. Being a Berthier rifle, it still weighs less when fully loaded then a fully loaded Lebel rifle. The en bloc clip magazine system gives me incredible reloading and unloading times that are faster than even a charger clip magazine in some instances. The fact that it’s a long barreled rifle means that I have increased muzzle velocity over a carbine and higher overall accuracy. People will complain about the heavier weight of Berthier rifle when compared to a carbine, but I’ve carried around much heavier guns then that. The weight of it at least means that it won’t be beating the crap out of my shoulder as harshly and producing a larger muzzle flash with every shot as a carbine does. Even though 8x50R Lebel might not be the best cartridge for a magazine system, it still has plenty of speed and knockdown power at any range. I could even attach an APX Scope on it and turn it into a pretty effective sniper rifle. Like the Lebel, the long barrel and strength of the stock means that I can use the Viven-Bessières Mle. 1916 rifle grenade launcher and huck a 1 lb bomb across a field to act as a one man mortar crew. Attaching the 1886 Rosalie bayonet gives me incredible melee reach with how long it and the gun are. If bayonet fighting isn’t your thing because “it’s too cramped to bayonet someone in a trench with a gun like that”, then I can just beat them with the 8.5 lb 52 inch club that is my rifle of choice.
Sir u got a good knowledge about ww1 and 2 arms
Picked up a 1917 M16 rifle with a Manufrance barrel last month. Its not matching nor does it have the Balle N marking but it appears to be as issued.
Having loaded the clip in a Berthier, Id say it is a great deal faster to reload than even comparable bolt actions like Mausers, Steyrs, and Mosins Ive shot. Pop that clip in and then rotate the bolt, no fuss at all and no stripper clip to line up and pull out, etc. It might be this rifle's only actual advantage over its contemporaries. Given the choice of French small arm were I in the fight, I'd be ok with the Berthier as long as I could coordinate reloading with some of my brothers in arms. IIRC, the famous Harlem Hellfighters were armed exclusively with it and spoke well of it after they rejoined US forces who had a wider selection of rifles to use, and it holds a special place in HHF veteran's and now commemorative circles to this day.
"They're OK pistol sights" geez what a compliment...
I have to wonder if the aim low sights thing was a feature. They were designed by guys who grew up on black powder. They were taught aim at the belt buckle.
It kinda seems the enblocs work better than stripper clips. They seem faster anyway. I have fiddled with stripper clips, and it never seems to go as advertised
And the morning in UK starts.
Hi , you maybe don't speak french but you're not so bad at it . Nice vid and interesting as always .... Peace from france ; )
The french cruciform bayonet was called « Rosalie ».
@Othais : The 3 round clip could be explained by the fact it's more confortable while in horseback and guess what .... that's a cavalry carbine at the origin
Primer 2B*? The heck is this, a show made by the British Ordnance Department?
They could have done Krag levels of correction🤣
Wait till the Canadians get involved....
The MLE16 has to be or close too the shortest bolt action carbine I know of? Nagant being close.
I'd absolutely take the long Berthier with 3 rounds over the Lebel with 8. The tubular magazine means you're effectively going to be using that rifle as a single-shot most of the time, and you have no way to quickly reload it at all if you're in an emergency attack that sees you emptying the whole gun. The Berthier needs to be reloaded after every 3 shots, but it's also about as fast as loading 1 round into the Lebel.
That said, Modele 1916 carbine forever.
Was surprised they didn’t do the five shot rifle, I thought they did in the original episode. I went to check but then realized they’ve removed the original versions. I thought they weren’t doing that?
Yes! Steve1987MREInfo stylé sound track at the live slow-mo. Are you going to redo the next 126 videos with slow-mo cocking sound? That should take us to the end of lock-down!
Berthier came back to play.
(Edit): It was the best I could think of. I wasn't going to say "Berthier? I barely know... 'aye?"
The heat yes, but the barrel is not heavy and quite thin.
So not surprised by that.
And Lebel 8mm may have floors but it still packs punch.
As to breech removal I made up a tool to remove the stock bolts.
So mine is not dinged.
It's a pain though as I like to inspect a weapon once it's mine.
That way I can see the parts and note condition.
Had they gone with 2 or 3 additional inches of barrel, I think the carbine would be much, much more serviceable
I just parked my car at home after watching Dune for the very first time with my sister and my brother-in-law. Perfect timing.
We also need to give thought that these guys weren't just given a gun as they walked into the trench. May shoots these with so very little training and experience with each gun you shoot. Not to belittle her excellant reviews. When you go through training with a firearm, you learn the sights etc.
Hey I know you don't do world war 2 Weapons but could you make a episode on the japanese type 100 smg??
Looks like y'all gonna get some sleep tonight, posting all early like.
Can the Berthier carbine use Lebel rifle’s round nosed cartridge?
I think I'd pick big Bertha cause it just seems like she would get more rounds off than patty lebel even though the clips only hold 3.
I agree. I'd take the three-round en-block and hope I can reload three times faster than with the eight-round tube.
Big Bertha, the cannon, with a three-round en-block clip. OY! :)
Transformer singing might have been the best part
Noticed you said Berthiers passed in 1923 (31:27), but showed 1858-1932 earlier (30:57). Thank you
Imagine fighting and dying for a country you had never seen before, and had never seen again.
You mean like the soldiers of conquered kingdoms who had to fight and die for the glory of Alexander the Great's empire, the Roman auxiliaries (auxilia) who were locally levied non-citizen troops for the Roman legions who fought and died on the Roman Empire's frontiers, the Chinese and Korean soldiers forced by the Mongol Empire to invade Japan, the Koreans drafted by the Empire of Japan to fight the Soviet Union (and some being captured by the Soviets were forced to fight for the USSR against the Germans), the Hmong people who fought for the US during the Vietnam War, the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire many of whom never been to or seen present day Turkey, and even some of the Japanese soldiers during WW2 who were born on the mainland of Asian and never been to Japan (the most famous being the late Japanese movie star Toshiro Mifune who was born in Dalian, China, drafted into the Imperial Japanese Army aviation and saw Japan for the first time when he was repatriated to Japan at the end of WW2). And then there was my uncle whom I have never met who was born in China of missionary parents who fought against the Japanese during WW2 and never saw the US because he was KIA. Yes, I think many people throughout the grim history of mankind could imagine it.
Does the zero vary depending on whether a bayonet is mounted or not?
That is a question I never thought of...knowing this post messing with my Mosin lol🤣
Does a bear...
Does anyone know the song playing during the shooting segments?
Choisis Lison (Choose Lison) Louis Bousquet & Camille Robert
ruclips.net/video/y_IVLhYR2ls/видео.html and here the lirycs and history (in french):
dictionnaireduchemindesdames.blogspot.com/2013/05/c-comme-choisis-lison_19.html
I have a Bertheir/St Etienne model M16 with serial number of 943. The barrel has a date ? stamp of 1919.
You missed an opportunity by not having a Kerrioke scroll on the bottom of the screen for all the all the french names.
Its crazy how long the french used these and the lebel
Take a drink every time He says “a big ask“.
Can't too druk
After the first couple drinks all I can hear is "a big ass"
31:05 You said Andre Berthier died in 1923, but you wrote down 1932.
Dyslexia cna get ot anyneo
accidents happen lol c'est la vie
He secretly lived for the next 10 years..........
Original episode: m.ruclips.net/video/yrKN31COHxY/видео.html
Bonus points to Mae for not being a crazy horse lady.
Oh what a sweet little rifle with the 5 round n block. Not that we are allowed such things in this septic isle, even if we could afford them, at least not in working order. 'What allow the peasantry weapons, they might storm the palace'. Not that we would, too apathetic and forelock tugging/curtseying to the lords and ladies etc. Anyway I've always been interested in weapons and find your videos very educative, I also find Othais and Maes banter so entertaining. Sorry no money though, it's either buy make up or do the patreon or other thing, I can't do both so sorry, make up wins.
Thank you for saying Iran correctly.
Well, I'd probably take Lebel over 07/15. Because I don't care much for the reload speed for the role I want to use it in. With that length, I would probably try taking position as a sniper, with a glass and proper camouflaging of course. It may be difficult, but it also beats lugging either one close range. I could also try launching rifle grenades from a distance with a Lebel.
Up close, Berthier's fast reload still doesn't matter much to me, since considering equal amount of ammunition, I'll have at least a couple stoppages between my shooting sequences just to reload the gun, I'd much rather have fewer, longer reloads than often quick reloads. At the worst case scenario, I can use Lebel as a single-shot in an emergency quicker than the Berthier, because with a Berthier I have to find loose rounds.
Where's the link to the podcast?
The patreon or subscribestar doners have access to the podcasts. Links are in the description. We drop one every other week.
Would be cool to know if a 5 shot full length rifle would be preferable: all the upgrades but without the harsh recoil. Maybe we'll see in 2025 when we're done with WW1
Another great video.
Just to add a little more, berthier clip are bad - as original famas was - for the same reason : it was never meant to be reused. Clip were issued already loaded and suppose to be discarded.
Nowadays this little piece of metal sell for a fortune ( seriously 15~20€ for the 3 rounds, 30€ for the 5) and when you found one you don't complain about the state, you buy it and make it work !
one of these days we gonna get a "war were declared" during the white box
...got one...but mine has the 5 round extended mag...made by Continsouza...no import marks and as near as 'pristine' as can be for an over 100 year old rifle...