How Was the Buddha Down-to-Earth? Demythologizing Prayer, Deities, and Devotion
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- How was the Buddha a down-to-earth, pragmatic teacher? In this second video on the subject (the first is linked below) we'll look at some of the ways the Buddha demythologized many deity practices of his day, as well as his skepticism towards prayer and devotional practices. We'll also turn to a few caveats at the end.
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✅ Videos mentioned:
How Was the Buddha Down-to-Earth? His Approach to Ritual -- • How Was the Buddha Dow...
What Did the Buddha Say About Prayer? - • What Did the Buddha Sa...
The Buddha on “Magic” - • The Buddha on "Magic"
Devotion in Early Buddhism - • Devotion in Early Budd...
How We Get Caught By Practice: Clinging to Rules and Rituals in Early Buddhism - • How We Get Caught By P...
Why Won't the Buddha Answer You? - • Why Won't the Buddha A...
✅ Book mentioned:
Donald Lopez, The Scientific Buddha: His Short and Happy Life - amzn.to/39clcjx
✅ Suttas mentioned:
Prayer:
suttacentral.net/an5.43/en/su...
suttacentral.net/sn42.6/en/su...
Conversion magic:
suttacentral.net/dn24/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato
(Others in related video).
Demythologization:
suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/an4.190/en/s...
suttacentral.net/dn13/en/sujato
Clinging to rules and rituals:
suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn11/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
Not answering all questions:
suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/an4.77/en/su...
Caveat:
suttacentral.net/an5.48/en/su...
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00:00 Intro
01:03 Prayer
02:44 Conversion magic
04:34 Demythologizing deity practices
09:34 Attachment to rules and rituals
11:09 Devotional practice
12:56 Unanswered questions
14:39 Some caveats
16:12 Finding benefit in ritual
17:36 The Buddha’s approach
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ruclips.net/video/HohspwjbRxk/видео.html You will see heaven in this video, minutes 36:00 - 42:00 and in this video there is a link to science throughout the video.
Wonderful video, Doug - as always! I love the Buddha for his pragmatism and down-to-earthness. 😻
There's a beautiful Zen story regarding "blind" rituals:
_When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice._
🙀
Yikes!
They would have had to gag the cat, too, but good story.
I thoroughly enjoy your podcasts. I am severely disabled and am a non-theistic Quaker, but love your talks on secular Buddhism. Thank you ❤️🙏🏼🌱🌱🌱
Hi, jinny.
How does non theistic quakerism work? I always thought the quakers were radically liberal christians.
What does that have to do with anything lol
My pleasure, Jinny! 🙏😊
@@theastralproject1268 Why do you have to be so rude? Maybe you should practice love and kindness
@@BNSFGuy4723 it's because people give their life backstory before their comment as if it adds something to the comment
I love your new format of videos! The timeline bar is a helpful addition to following the topic :)
Thanks Kaito, I've used the timeline bar a few times, I'l use it again eventually! 😄
Doug, high quality discussion with the spirit of inquiry as always. Thank you.
I enjoyed greatly the work being put to uncover Early Buddhism and appreciate the effort that you are doing in making this much more accessible for us.
For the present form being handed down to us; I believed that the only things we can do is to test them all out and practice sincerely.
I agree, Trin. Thanks! 🙏
Thank You! I had posted a comment under last video requesting you to throw some light on certain things. You answered them well! ✌️😊
Glad it was helpful!
You continue to thoughtfully educate & impress. I listen to at least one (often many more) of your videos every day. Thank you for sharing your knowledge & perspectives.
My pleasure, David. Thanks for the comment! 🙏
Thank you so much for sharing the damma.
🙏😊
Amazing quality video and articulation. Thank you for your efforts as always!
My pleasure!
Great video, thanks a lot Doug 🙂
Very welcome, Marco. 🙏
Much mudita for you, Doug 🙏😊 and your ability to share the miracle/magic of instruction 🕊
Thank you kindly, Anthony. 🙏
Well done yet again, Doug. A thoroughly enjoyable and informative piece. There is just one thing where my understanding differs somewhat.
It seems to me that the Buddha did have all the answers but refused to elaborate when he judged some question not conducive to the goal. There is another sutta where he likens all that he explicitly taught with a handful of leaves and what he understood with the entire forest. However, we might well ponder what it would mean for anyone to have a fully inexpressible answer.
Perhaps your secular practice shines through somewhat in this case? I do respect your knowledge of early Buddhism to a great extent, believe me.
With warm regards, Maarten
Thanks, Maarten. I actually did a separate video on the simile of the handful of leaves: ruclips.net/video/7hTUM_iKVmU/видео.html
You are doing good work..I hope that people bring that belief in themselves that they can achieve Awakening in this life..
People should not give up so early
🙏
Great vid!
Glad you enjoyed it! 🙏
Hi Doug. I really appreciate your dharma talks and use them as part of my daily practise. May I ask, have you done a video of your books, that is, like a book tour? I appreciate some may have been damaged or lost in the recent fire. I like the collection on the bookshelf behind you. What are they our of curiosity? Thank you again for all you do. Kindly, David
Thanks! I haven't done a book tour, though I do have a past video on my book. As to the books behind me, you can see more about them in this (earlier) video: ruclips.net/video/YIcnCqOALPs/видео.html
Hello Doug. First of all thank you for your channel, I have been watching all of your videos for days (Despite the fact that it's not my language) and it is a great help for someone like me ,non-Buddhist but who has been reading and looking for years to learn more ,and very curious about this way of living and to find solutions to the reactions of these emotions which "command" my life. I have a question for you that may seem silly but I'll ask it anyway. Do you think there is an age to start in Buddhism? Thank you again for sharing your knowledge ,and wishing well to the whole world.
You're very welcome! As to your question, no I don't think there's a proper age to start. If it interests you, then by all means go ahead.
Thank you!
My pleasure, Mende!
the story of brahmin youths is wonderful.. given brahman ..has nothing to do with brahma the creator. Buddha was right about pointing it out . I love this given i am a brahmin who grew under upanishadic thought. I felt like buddha was talking to me about knowing vs believing .. quest of a lifetime
🙏😊
I can suggest you a topic about the time needed for Awakening.
There is a chapter in the Middle Length Discourses where it is mentioned that its possible to fully awaken even in few days..
Do you mean the sutta on the four foundations of mindfulness? Yes, but I think to do so in a few days would need a lot of prior preparation! 😄
@@DougsDharma The Middle Length Discourses- Chapter 85 "With Prince Bodhi"
I feel that the Buddha was teaching a pragmatic doctrine amidst sea of religious fervour and either had to adjust his style to meet that, or others who did added to the suttas. I know that there are many, even in the west who take this religious aspect as true. Ajahn Bramali of the BSWA always states that we must believe all that is in the suttas because the Buddha did. Personally I take many of the stories in the suttas with a large pinch of salt winkling out the pragmatic teachings. HoweverI still enjoy the mythology just as I also enjoy Greek or Norse mythology🙏☸️
What is left of Buddhism if we deny karma, rebirth, and realms of rebirth?
@@prashantlakhera6156 practice and ethics?
@@coyotefoxtrot2832
What is the goal of Buddhist practice if not freedom from the cycle of birth and death?
If you want to end your suffering,then just commit suicide? Why go through tedious process of becoming a monk and then meditating to attain Nirvana?
Yes, well said Les. Thanks!
@Blenpt Narsh
Why not totally eradicate suffering by committing suicide if there isn't rebirth?
Btw, Buddha allowed only those monks to commit suicide who have reached Nirvana because then truly you don't have any afterlife.
Yoga & meditation is a sound of soul , the universe music 🎼
🙏
Oh goodness. I spent three years studying and practicing vajrayana and eventually left to study on my own. I wish I had seen this sooner 😂
Some find those practices very useful, but they aren’t for everyone. (No approach is).
Hello Doug it’s your old viewer Jonathan here, your Chan Buddhist amigo. I have spent much time contemplating this interesting “shift” in the world. You notice it don’t you? Things deeply talked about in Esoteric Buddhism seem to be surfacing; I never believed in Demons but I’m sure they are real now. Do you have any thoughts on this specifically? And also do you believe beings in Vajrarayana Buddhism are real such as protector deities like King Yama and Mahakala or do you think they are representations?
Also something came to mind about Buddhist aliens in Thailand and all of this being interconnected any comments about any of this?
Hey i want to ask one question?
What your thoughts on meditation based on pa auk sayadaw techniques. Which go by step with steps of visuddhimagga.
I want to know is there any chance or and relation of practice between suttapitka and visuddhimagga.
Because I didn't saw any such explanation of experience in suttapitka. Which is May be because am reading translation...
Visuddhimagga talk about rup- kalapas, and other experience..
Can u help here
That's a huge question, one I can't answer here. Of course, there is a close relationship between the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, but they aren't precisely the same.
@@DougsDharma
Thanks Doug for ans .
I like to share this book with all
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=static.sariputta.com/pdf/tipitaka/1221/1pas-01-knowing-and-seeing-5th-rev-ed-pamc-032019pdf.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi_yOCW0LL5AhXaUPUHHUnPAzkQFnoECGEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0g-CSl7zRkH_6wxv2t4Vnk
How do we interpret the heavenly realms as metaphorical if the texts refer to the breakup of the body being a prerequisite?
The texts are literal about them, however that does not preclude a metaphorical reading in addition.
@@DougsDharma That's insightful. Do you think it is possible to take a metaphorical reading without damaging the authority or credibility of the texts given they may have been literal?
You may have a previous video on this topic, I'm unsure.
I very much enjoy your channel and appreciate the time you put into presenting your meticulously researched videos. But I find myself feeling frustrated by the depiction presented in this one; I mean the idea that the Buddha was a pragmatist, engaged in demythologizing, and other very modernist approaches. I sometimes feel that some Buddhists in the West, particularly the anglosphere, try to make the Buddha a kind of ancient Indian David Hume. Personally I think that is very far from the teachings of the Dharma. // A final comment, some of the critiques the Buddha had towards ceremony and other aspects mentioned where shared by groups like the Jains; in other words there is precedent in Indian spirituality for this kind of disagreement and I think it is reasonable to suggest that the Buddha knew of, and learned from, groups like the Jains on these points. // But I enjoyed your presentation and the systematic way it was offered.
Thanks yes, I certainly don't think the Buddha was an Indian David Hume; he was not a modernist in the standard sense of the term. His approach to the dharma was complex and nuanced! But there is also a tendency to overlook his demythologizing tendencies both among practitioners and scholars which is why I felt it necessary to make this and other similar videos of mine highlighting certain key aspects of the early texts. 🙏
Would be right to point is as a contradiction?- fundamentally he is against the idea of God but he still says it's ok to do rituals if it works for them?
Well, it's not so much a contradiction as a slightly different aim. For the Buddha, rituals can work for worldly ends such as power, fame, wealth, long life, etc.: those are the sorts of things powerful deities might provide us. (Again, on his understanding of the role of the deity). They can't provide enlightenment.
@@DougsDharma thank you for your reply. What makes me uneasy is that Buddha is at the forefront of rational thinking and karma lays down that you sow what you reap. But the intervention of a deity in between which helps in granting wishes discredits the effect of the individual. Would love to hear you thoughts on this.
Doug, if the buddha said that it is not useful to pray to decrease the bad karma of dead people, why do so many Buddhists pray to transfer merit from themselves to dead relatives and friends?
Many of these ideas are very deeply embedded culturally. The notion of transfer of merit is another one that has been questioned by scholars.
@@DougsDharma many Buddhist pray and help the dead. Alas Buddhist orthodoxy is here
Meritorious deeds generates virtuous karma. Those who rejoice in these meritorious deeds generate karma equal to conducting the deeds. In the most conservative sense, this would require the deceased to rejoice in the meritorious deed, which is not something we can confirm. But the prayers are to provide opportunities for the deceased-and all unseen beings-to rejoice.
Furthermore, when someone passes away and their surviving kin do meritorious deeds (reciting scriptures, practicing generosity, observing precepts, etc.) as a result, the deceased's final deed (of passing away) has a domino effect on those around them and indirectly generated many meritorious deeds.
@@DougsDharma Indeed there are many studies on this topic. For a comparison of Sarvastivadin and Sthaviravadin views on the mechanics of dedicating or redirecting merit, see Shimizu Toshifumi 清水俊史. “Habukkyō ni okeru segaki no kōsō: Ubu to Jōzabu ni yoru ekō no kyōriteki rikai” 派仏教における施餓鬼の構造：有部と上座部による廻向の教理的理解 in Bukkyō daigaku bukkyō gakkai kiyō 佛教大学仏教学会紀要 17 (March 2012): 55-72.
@@DougsDharma yes, i think its cultural. ive only seen it with those who grew up in a buddhist culture.
Perhaps Buddha didn't answer what happens after death of an arahat because they are totally beyond even formless realms like nothingness and neither perception nor non perception which are already impossible to understand for those who haven't even attained attained jhanas, so how would lay people or those monks who haven't attained jhanas, would understand what happens after parinibanna ?
Well if he believed they existed somewhere he would have said so, presumably.
@@DougsDharma
Yeah, all questions about afterlife start with ' where does one go after death'. And since Arahats don't go anywhere, understanding their afterlife lies solely within the reach of only those who knows Nirvana and anyone who knows Nirvana has at least attained stream entry
Mythology is a pretty important and natural part of human culture. Is non-theistic empiricism really more “down-to-earth” than, say, animism? It seems like belief in spirits and deities and prayer and magic is pretty ubiquitous in indigenous cultures, while cultures where the land and ancestors are not revered have a tendency to impact the Earth like a cancer. So, in pragmatic interest of facilitating a balanced relationship between humans and other living beings in their environment, it seems reasonable to not assume that empirical data on what counts as sentient is anywhere close to conclusive. Also, there’s a distinction between Brahman as the supreme reality and Brahma as the Creator deity.
Sure, what's down-to-earth for one person may not be for another. And also yes, there is a distinction to be made between Brahman and Brahma, though they are also often elided, particularly I think in the early Buddhist texts.
Greg, secular thinking is entirely speculative when it comes to being and life. Your approach is akin to scientism. I love your videos and will watch them, but this secular influence is dubious. Science presents with models and paradigms that change.. 1905 my brother....Big Bang.. etc
Doug here. It’s the fact that models and paradigms change due to the best evidence at hand that makes the process so powerful. It’s not a dogma we hold to come-what-may, it’s an open way of learning from reality. Not for everyone, that’s for sure, and that’s fine.
@@DougsDharma religious insight per mediation may be as valid as scientific speculation. Karma is dependent on rebirth. This flies in the face of secular beliefs.