Yo idk if you guys noticed but the "martha" moment was modeled after the ending of the soviet war film Come And See where the kid is shooting the picture of hitler and war footage is playing in reverse. The reversal of the war stuff going back to the before times in both films is meant to show the protagonist that killing the villain isn't worth it.
Avengers Endgame literally had every Avenger portray a stage of grief not once, but twice lol After the five year jump: Hawkeye - Anger Nat - Denial Thor - Depression Bruce - Bargaining Tony - Acceptance After Nat’s death: Clint: Acceptance Tony: Depression Steve: Bargaining Bruce: Anger Thor: Denial I’m not tryna take anything away from Wakanda Forever bc I love it, but acting like it’s the first super hero movie to do this isn’t exactly corrext
@@Shortyd17 he never said it was the first, and you thinking he is acting is you projecting. You need to know yourself bud because you are taking away from the movie.
I loved how serious and scary Talokans introduction was every time they came up on screen. That scene on boat with Namor in shadows, Talokans singing like mermaids hypnotizing everyone to jump to their deaths that scientist desperately trying to run and fight for her life? I love how serious and intense it was. Not many jokes flying around this time and I loved it much more.
I had absolutely NO IDEA that Haiti was going to be in this movie; but as a Haitian ....the way my face LIT UP when I saw Haiti !!! Absolutely LOVED IT !!!
As someone who honestly didn't give a damn about the Namor character. I absolutely loved his character in this movie. Especially the switch up to being a lost mesoamérican tribe. Loved his back story and the way he got his name as well. Bad ass! Can't wait for him to get a solo film to explore more of Talokan.
I'm a big fan of Namor and I really liked the MCU version of this character not as arrogant or as good looking as I wanted him to be but still a very well done adaptation
A moment that's etched into my brain: when Namor makes the choice to attack Wakanda. Namora is shouting at him who's gonna stop them, as he is holding the body of the girl that Nakia shot, he delivers that "Me" line with so much bottled up anger and power. The Mexican delegation can be damn proud of Huerta.
I knew that the film would be emotional for a lot of people. But I know that it was surprising to some of the people around me that, for them to see a 57 year old white dude was so upset about the death of T'Challa and Chadwick Boseman, that it brought me to tears and sobbing in my seat. Luck for me, my daughter was sitting next to me and she just grabbed my arm tight and said, "Papa. It's OK to cry. He was your hero." And then my youngest son sitting on the other side of me, grabbed my other arm and my hand and said, "I know daddy. The King died and the actor died too. I'm sorry." A woman that was sitting near to us, spoke to me when the credits were rolling. And she said that she was surprised to see me crying during the movie. And that she did not expect anybody besides Black People to be emotional about it. And I told her that ... "When it was announced that Chadwick had died, I sat in my office and cried for over an hour. And now in this film, it felt like my King had just died now to." Then I said, "I loved T'Challa in the first film. The way that he was played by Chadwick, made me wish I was from Wakanda! And that Wakanda to me, just brought my mind back to one of my heroes when I was a kid ... Martin Luther King Jr. and his I have a Dream speech. They were both so inspiring to me." She just smiled at me and nodded her head. It's amazing how all of the people that worked on these films, along with Ryan and Chadwick, were able to make you feel admiration for the Country of Wakanda and it's people. That you wish you were a part of all of it. It is simply brilliant and magical!
To Augustine's point about how the conflict between Talocan and Wakanda wasn't something to be cheered on, I'd like to take it a step further and say I think you can read it as the explicit tragedy of the wake of colonialism on victimized cultures. I earnestly believe the villain of this movie was not Namor, but colonialism itself. The way colonialism pushed Talocan and influenced Wakanda to isolationism and distrust of other cultures, including cultures who were also victims of displacement and conquest, poignantly echoes real history, albeit in an obviously more fantastical way. This movie to my mind was itself a confrontation and refutation of the tired trope of black and brown communities being antagonized in popular media. Everett Ross's subplot showed explicitly that the US and other western countries' violent pursuit of resources that did not belong to them lead directly to Talocan being forced to defend itself against what they had every reason to believe were hostile outsiders. Hell, one of the military officials in the room with Val and Ross floated "destabilization" as a necessary response to stop Wakanda from interfering with their theft of vibranium. This story was about more than just the mourning of T'challa and Chadwick, it was also the ongoing grief of colonized cultures still reckoning with their collective traumas. That aspect of the film moved me deeply, because my country, The Philippines is also deeply scarred from Spanish colonialism. Intersectional racism is a huge issue in my culture too, and I think there's a case to be made that colonized cultures unintentionally recreate the destructive hierarchies that oppressed them in order to survive in a harshly competitive world, not just by this movie, but even in Ms. Marvel, when it showed how the British partition pit India and Pakistan against each other. I know that these themes were present in the comics from the beginning, but seeing them being tackled at this scale while also honoring someone who put his all into that kind of art makes me hopeful that world is going in a better direction.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve been saying some version of these things to myself since I got out of the theater last night. Thank you for posting this!
one of the unique things about my viewing was that my theater was silent most of the time. everyone was trying to breathe through it and process it in real time. During the big fight scenes everyone was like "no, stop! you're the same!" and I really appreciated that because yes. the very obvious parallels included just made the fights really sad. i've never felt more relief from an audience than when shuri and namor had their yield moment. honestly, it's a movie that takes a while to process, and I only really had one gripe the entire movie. I really loved it.
The final scene between shuri and Namor sold the film for me. I feel these two characters will be forever connected. The crowd was somber when I watched it. It was so quiet, but you could tell everyone was enthralled.
Yeah when Shuri looked like she was about to be done and she remembered that she told Killmonger she was gonna make Namor beg for mercy then she pulled herself off the spike I was like bruh, this is arguably the most badass super hero moment in entire mcu
I absolutely loved the scene at the end where Shuri has that moment of closure and we see images of Chadwick. Was super emotional and cathartic just having that moment to remember him and what he did.
That made me tear up and shuri’s interaction with her nephew. The happiness and hope she had on her face made tears roll down my face. She deserved a happy ending.
That was the only bit I felt didn’t live up to what the character development, specifically Shuri. Why did she only think about her brother? Yes, he was previous King but what about her mother who she just lost and her Father who died in an explosion?. I appreciate how they honored Chadwick Bosman
To Augustin’s point about Black and Brown people fighting, my cousin and I said essentially the same thing about what we thought Ryan Coogler was trying to accomplish. We’re both Indigenous, and I’m also Black and Latina. I spent most of the filmed very distressed because I saw two Indigenous nations who have chosen to remain reclusive largely in reaction to Western imperialist and colonialist violence at war with each other because of…Western imperialist and colonialist violence (U.S. perpetrated in this specific instance). It was deeply uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating to watch (my cousin and I were like, and now you’re two assholes fist fighting in the desert). But, it was also a deeply insightful commentary on Coogler’s part WRT lateral violence, what happens when peoples under threat by Western imperialist, colonialist violence choose to fight versus unite, and differing reactions to the trauma of it all. That was a lot to try and undertake in a Marvel film, and I appreciated it.
Wakanda Forever was such a beautiful love letter to Chad Boseman. I cried, I laughed, I held my daughter close in my arms with love and gratitude. We experienced all stages of grief with these characters, especially Shuri, but we also got to experience the excellence of both cultures. RiRi Williams is my new favorite character in the MCU, and Namor is easily one of my favorite antagonist we’ve gotten so far. One of the moments that hit me to the core was when Namor told Shuri “ both of our people have been enslaved.” Man that gave me chills!!! And that mid credit scene OMG I lost it 😭
@@themadafaka6839 instead of jumping to conclusions, why not wait and see how they use the character moving forward? This is the multiverse saga, anything can happen. Also Ryan Coogler and Marvel don’t owe the fans anything. They have the story they want to tell and it’s up to us to either go with that story or not. At the end of the day if you’re not happy with their decisions, you can always go back to the comics and revisit those stories.Just wait and see what happens and trust the process. Have a good weekend 🙅🏾♀️
@@Aishakenya824 well, every bad decisions that were predicted, rumored, theorized turned out to be true in this movie, so.. The chances are they will make a lot more mistake and missteps moving forward. And if you're fine with that..keep swallowing s**t they're giving. Me? as a fan of the movies AND the comics, I'm concerned enough to WANT the movies to be good moving forward. And from what I've been seeing in phase 4, they're slipping. And u said they don't owe us..?? U slow..? We PAID to watch their movies..their PRODUCTS. We do have A SAY.
@@themadafaka6839 That’s your opinion, in my opinion it was a GOOD decision. Also in the comics T’Challa was raised away from Wakanda , as a child after his father passed. So simply put, Ryan Coogler is following the comics. As a comic fan this should make you happy correct? Also there was no need to use profanity in your response. It’s sounds like you may be going through something right now and to that I say…I hope your day gets better and whatever you’re going through will soon pass. God bless and enjoy the rest of your day! 💕
Great review. We saw an early show today with less than 15 people. There were no cheers. Lots of tears and gasps when Shuri and Namor go up against each other. I felt the trope of black and brown fighting worrisome going in, but found that the three main characters were depicted struggling with their shadow. Distrust and revenge are powerful dark shadows. I felt the gesture of giving Shuri the bracelet which ultimately gives her the power is powerful. The scene between them was delicate and powerful. This made the violence in the desert so painful to watch as Namor pounded at Shuri’s panther. The immediate reaction of a male godlike creature brutally hitting the female panther was alarming. But it was equally brutal when she ripped his wings off his foot. I could only feel sadness and thought how can this end? The reintroduction of the mothers and the unwinding of the attack on Wakanda seemed to represent regret. It wiped the shadows away. Brought them back to two people facing each other. Very powerful. Then to introduce the new character in the mid credit scene made me feel like the mourning was complete. Beautiful. As it should be. We move forward. I was impressed. And grateful for your evaluation. Thx.
That was a well considered breakdown of racial and gender themes I hadn't thought about. To be honest, my thoughts were a little more one-dimensional, like: Jesus this conflict is irrational. The way they highlighted the fact that violence only begets more violence in a neverending cycle made me reflect on the absurdity of it all. The whole "murdering innocent men, women and children to save innocent men, women and children" thing. That's not strictly a mark against the film. If anything, it's a critical (and unflattering) reflection of actual large scale rivalries and the absurdity of it all. But it somewhat lessened my respect for the villain. In the first film (before he went full Bond supervillain) it seemed like Killmonger was actually winning the moral argument about the negative qualities surrounding Wakanda's isolationist policies and in fact changed the protagonist's mind by the end. This character followed a similar dizzying arc. From trying to use concise violence to preclude a potential threat to his people to "everyone must BURN". The scene of children and families drowning in the unprovoked strike against Wakanda demonstrated the unraveling sanity of such a childish plan. I couldn't help but feel like Namor was throwing a tantrum. Still fine though. Humans aren't entirely rational creatures under the best of circumstances, let alone when powerful emotions are fighting a civil war in our minds. But I couldn't help but roll my eyes at Namor and sigh heavily thinking, "Fine. What's a little manslaughter between friends I suppose?"
As someone who lives in the Yucatán Península, hearing the name of the cities and the Mayan lenguage was so f beautiful. Watching a cenote and the pyramids was so important to me because I really thought about the native people that are often ignored and made fun of for their culture, I cried a lot tbh A lot of the movie was in Mayan, a song on the soundtrack is a rap in Mayan, the music in the background when the people from talocan were on the screen was made with native instruments. It really meant a lot to me and I'm sure to a lot more
Little thing that I loved was that Talokan had an equivalent exhortation to Wakanda: “Rise Talokan” is their “Wakanda Forever”. So much parallelism! Imagine how it would have been if Namor was actually courting Sheri! There were hints, but she wasn’t in a place to even consider it because of the circumstances and conditions he put on an alliance. Plus Shuri is so young and Namor so much older, it wouldn’t work in this story. But it was an intriguing story point.
Okay, I am glad I am not the only one who felt that ship. I was so mad that he was the direct cause of her mother's death, because you can't really move past the to a romance. I felt like he was the most human with her and had a soft spot for her. I think the Queen passing was an important turning point for Shuri, but couldn't it have been a little more indirect?! 😩
I love that Haiti was included - there is relevance in including real-world places and people beyond simply being settings and background, respectively
I think what was interesting about the Namor and his people having vibranium is showing how different people use it. They use it for jewelry, armory and architecture, but with Mayan culture. Even seeing Steve Rogers use it as a defense weapon, and especially that line from Julia Lewis Dryfus of the USA having vibranium, what they could do. It is fascinating and scary powerful resource.
I lost my dad and two other relatives a year and a half ago, and I just did not know how to process the intro. I was like stuck in neutral with my emotions...
There's so much I can say about this movie, but I'll say this: 1) The Marvel/ Disney exec notes that Nate Moore, Coogler, & Chadwick fought against while filming Black Panther was for T'Challa to have a British accent. For Coogler to double down in Wakanda Forever and make Prince T'Challa Haitian is *chef's kiss* Give Coogler all the awards!!
I think Marvel Studios has also learned in its Fourteen Years as a studio, which by the way, blows my mind that it has been that long, that Feige and his team can introduce new characters like RiRi Williams without putting a big Neon Sign behind her, "Don't forget to watch 'IronHeart' " which was a much bigger issue Marvel Studios has had in years past.
I’m glad you had a great theater experience. I live in Japan and movie theater crowds are expected to be dead silent at all times, so for the past year, every Marvel movie I’ve seen in theaters, there is no reaction from the audience ever 😭 I had to cry as silently as possible while watching this movie, trying not to disturb anyone
23:50 This is interesting to see how people could react to that type of scenes because my theatre experience was not cheering for it at all, the crowd litteraly BOOED when they saw nakia killing the talokan women during the infiltration. I really feel like most people could feel the unnecessary violence between the two communities. There were no villains and heroes and i really think they showed it well.
To piggyback on what you said Adam, I felt the biggest villain was death... I loved the movie, it's definitely hits harder if you've lost a love one! #wakandaforever
My theater was full of black and brown and we all walked out proud but also reflective. We were definitely more so in pain when they were all fighting. Like we hurt for everyone , by the time we got to the final fight we were all in tears. I think that’s what coolger wanted. The truth is we fight , but we can always do better. Loved ur breakdown 🤎
I couldn't believe how much emotions I felt in this movie. Sadness, happiness, excitement, dread, and at the end joy. This is one of my favorite Marvel movies because it is one of my favorite movies.
This was the first MCU movie that I felt strongly you had to engage with it at a deeper level to see how incredible it was. Like y'all mentioned with folks cheering at seemingly the "wrong" action sequences, I think people walking in an action packed superhero movie that they could watch mindlessly are going to be disappointed/frustrated. But if audiences can stay engaged with the quieter character moments, it becomes an incredible piece of art about grief and loss.
Completely agree, and well said. I was struck at how personal and introspective this film was. My favorite moments of the film were, in fact, the quieter emotional moments.
Man, I liked the movie, but walked out saying “first one was better”. Then I slept on it and listened to y’all discuss it? And now I’m hyped to go watch it again. Appreciate each of your insights and just overall nerdness for all things Marvel (and beyond)! Thank you and keep up the good work!
Maybe it's because of the action packed scenes in the first one. This second one was indeed supposed to be T'Challa vs Namor, but Ryan Coogler didn't even know what Chadwick was going through until his passing. So they have to change the story of the sequel a bit and that's why I think although the original plot of fighting Namor is still there, instead of having a lot of action scenes they decided to make it as a way of paying tribute to Chadwick while still incorporating the original plot. Very good movie nonetheless 🙌
The silence in my theater in the very last scene, where Shuri is burning her funeral robe on the beach, was defining...and rather impressive. I've never heard such a silent theater in my life - it felt appropriate. Good stuff.
I loved shuri's theme during her entrance. I got chills. Her emotional journey was perfect and that's coming from someone who was sceptical about shuri being the black panther.
No one cheered seeing Wakanda vs. Talocan in the theater I was in. In fact, they were a bit reserved. It was awesome seeing Kilmonger and Valentina. To know T'challa had a child. It was something I didn't consider. But, I'm so happy they did it the way they did.
Over the years, Marvel has done this narrative technique where they might take 2 or 3 characters from the comics and make them a singular hybrid character. What Ryan did was brilliant....he took T'Challa and split him into 2 separate characters with the introduction of his son. This way Chadwick is the true T'Challa but we will one day see a Black Panther with T'Challa in the suit.
And also, if he gets aged up at any point (they're about to fight Kang and all) and becomes Black Panther, then they could do the Storm romance without hurting Nakia which they would have had to do otherwise.
Agree with you about Attuma. Having him go up against Okoye was a great way to show how much of a threat he was. Cause Okoye is like the top fighter of wakanda and yet Attuma was managing to give her a run for her money. Well done.
I wish my theater had the sad reaction. My theater had mostly Latino and whites in it, both races wore white, black people told them they shouldn’t be wearing white because they’ll never understand. I’m Latino, it sucks. It’s very odd to me, but those confrontations definitely took some of the excitement and joy out of the movie unfortunately.
@@TheMagicJIZZ I mean that only black people were supposed to wear white to this and no other races? So us as Latinos and white people were confronted about it.
The things I liked about the movie are: - For me the trailers actually lead you away from what the movie actually entailed - The surprise at what happened to the Queen, the son, etc - Dreyfus appearance/married to Ross - General losing her job - Moments of silence in opening credits and end scene - I really like that Shuri was allowed to show her grief and anger - I also like that even tho Shuri was the Black Panther, they showed its training and the herb that makes them the fighters.
I agree with ALL of this! The trailers show you a fight so you know something is going to happen. But I wasn’t expecting Shuri to go down there and be introduced to their world.
I was so so pissed I shouted out what!! At te queen I forgot I was at the movies with tons of folks. I'm still hot 🔥.. I truly got to watch it again after the shock, excitement and emotional trauma..
@@justicebolton4844 lol we’re you at my theater? Someone at my theater shouted “What!” After Ramonda fired Okoye. Serious note tho I couldn’t believe she was fired, like I actually feel pretty conflicted about that lol.
I think it did a great job of showing grief, so many people lost someone in 2020 and I recently lost two people last year and this movie brings up all the emotions you feel when you remember those you lost. It feels like not only a love letter to Chadwick but to everyone we lost. Her remembering her brother and being able to smile at the end was so powerful.
"Vengeance has consumed us. We cannot let it consume our people." When Shuri says that line it hit me different. The movie was powerful in so many ways. The intro when there is no sound simply the images of T'challa rolling by in Marvels classic title screen, sent me into tears. It was completely silent in the theater. Then again in the end when Shurri burns the cermonial garb and we see more images of T'challa I lost it. There were definitely some story elements that could have been better, but this movie was a great tribute and also a great way for us all to burn that cermeonial garb and move forward.
Ryan Coogler, the cast & crew deserve all the praises! I love the introduction of Riri and how the scene mirrors peter & Tony first moment in civil war and their connection.
Just came out of the theatre 2 hours ago. Was hoping for this, this movie moved me, brought me to tears and blew me away. I'm gonna watch it again next weekend!
I can't say enough of what I love about this film, truly. One of my favorite scenes was with Angela and Danai when Queen Mother was stripping Okoye of her warrior duties. It was so hard, wow. I cried SOOOO much in the film, all allusions to Chadwick/T'Challa, but also callbacks to other MCU moments, like trying earlier Iron Man suits (when RiRi was going up too high). I was so emotional when Shuri became Black Panther, when Queen mother passed, when Nakia was talking to Okoye and said T'Challa was everything.
With them showing the child, they can finally do the original backstory of Plack Panther, where he is raised outside of Wakanda and returns to become king and take over the mantel, without ever knowing his father.
This Phase 4 was about, grief and loss, horizontal universe expansion, passing the mantle and legacy, and Multiverse. At the time of Endgame, the MCU felt big already, but Avenger's centric, but after this Phase 4, the MCU feels incredibly rich and diverse, Marvel is putting the ``Cinematic Universe`` concept bar extremely high.
I thought it was great. A great conclusion to Phase 4. This phase of the MCU has been dealing with the themes of grief and persevering during tough times in most of the projects.
My family and I saw it Thursday night with only about 25 people in the theater. I always go to the earliest screenings, so our showtime was 3:30. Definitely no hype from the audience. I really enjoyed the movie. It was a wonderful tribute to Chadwick and pulled at all the feelings and emotions. Solid MCU addition.
I went to a similar screening the first time I saw it. Same day and time, more people but rather quiet. It makes a difference to see it with a hyped crowd.
I love how Marvel established the aztecas ancestral platform for such an iconic character likeNAMOR, rather than an Atlantian setup. And the parallel grief brought into the film for Chadwick/Black Panther was executed just right.
LOVED the Throne Room scene with Ramonda & Okoye, gave me chills! Give me the Dora Milaje D+ Show with Ayo, Aneka & Okoye getting more screen time! RIP Kevin Conroy - THE BATMAN to an entire generation!
An Oscar worthy performance from Letitia and Angela 👏 the silence in the scene, the emotion, the way they delivered every line oh my god I get chills everytime.
They probably wouldn't be considered Oscar worthy because it's a superhero movie but, the pain and sadness felt so much more real and true (and was) than the usual Oscar bait movie that it would absolutely deserve the awards.
I turned 50 in April. I've been a sucker for stories that dwell in grief and how we process it. Far From Home, WandaVision, and Loki all dealt with forms of grief in honest ways. WandaVision was a practically a love letter to loss. What Wakanda Forever understood and expressed clearly is how grief becomes a part of us and eventually a part of us all. No one is immune to it. I appreciated wallowing in it with these amazing performances. The moment Shuri relented reminded me of the end of The Last of Us Part II, where it was about letting go, finding solace, and connecting with what has been lost instead of destroying out of pain. I made NO connection between that moment and the Martha moment in BvS. Yikes. Farthest thing from my mind. This felt earned. Those final shots of Shuri on the beach were stunning. Beautiful emotion, model, setting, and photography. I also wonder what it's like to have no body fat, frankly. Her neck goes IN when she swallows. I've inherited my family's dulap jowls, so watching such perfect people on screen is like seeing another species.
Bro seeing Namor witness colonization of mexico, I was balling. Then he explain how he used the Spanish name given to him as power, oh lord. As a Mexican American there is alot to get through on religion ,the Spanish we speak, and how over the years lighter skin ment not bieng a slave so a self imposed/Forced genocide of our dark skined ancestors.
(I’m black) I was so uneasy during the big fight and winced at the cheering for the Wakandans. I was heartened to see how the conflict was resolved. I’m so hoping the Latin community is as proud of Namor, Namora, and the other personal and cultural representations as I was enlightened and elated in seeing it.
I wasn't uneasy during the fight scenes. I knew both Wakanda and Talocan were going to hit an impasse. But, I understand what you are saying. I didn't want them to fight but the course had been set. I was satisfied how it ended though.
@@bionicwoman9884 I understand why you don’t understand. I’m not here to give you a free lesson that you feel you don’t need. Have a great rest of your life.
Its been 6 years (Nakia gave birth lets say 2018, or get pregnant before the blip). They come back from the blip in 2023, and its been a year since he passed, so its at least 2024, and one of the Marvel execs says the movie happened right the events of NWH so we're looking at late 2024/early 2025 so the child is approximately 5 to 6 years old.
Loosing my mum recently I knew going into this movie that it will be very emotional,also for that reason for me, and the way characters dealt with loss actually made me realize what I feel and hopefully will help me get throough my loss better.This movie made my theater silent in many moments and the post credits scene was a great way to pay tribute to T'challa and Chadwick while at the same time carrying his legacy.Perfect way to finish phase four :)
I saw some comments complaining about Talokan being too dark, but the ocean is dark. It is incredibly dark. It's part of the reason why it is so terrifying, as is demonstrated in the cold open of the movie. I know why Avatar and some other movies make underwater a lot brighter, to make is shiny and full of wonder, but I appreciate the deep dark depths. That is what the ocean is to me, an endless cold darkness, full of both life and danger. Not a place where surface-dwellers belong. Also, I agree with the fight scenes. Whenever Wakanda and Talokan fought, I did not cheer. I just wanted them to stop! I wanted them to stop hurting one another.
The best part is it doesn't matter if you belong to that particular community or share that history, the film still draws you into its world and make you love & care about the characters. That there loss feels so personal and that's what Ryan coogler brings.
Well, Namor did tell Shuri. He wanted to join forces because of the colonialism of the yt people. It was never the intention but when Nakia killed one of his people. All bets were off
Yup. Nakia was in the wrong. It's was understandable from her perspective, but still wrong. U do find it disappointing that 2 Wakanda films with the idea of addressing colonizer wrongs have passed, with nary a yt country being touched. It's starting to seem intentional.
I didn't see it that way exactly. Namor didn't come to Wakanda with a plea or offer of cooperation and he easily could have if he wanted a true ally. Instead, he came with a demand to see if they would submit to him. Just like M'Baku said, if they gave him what he demanded the first time, he would want more and more the next time. He only switched to an alliance (toward HIS goals) with Shiri because Wakanda didn't fold the first time. It was a tactic. He has always wanted to invade the surface world, but didn't have the military power. He saw in Wakanda an opportunity to aquire that military might. The vibranium mining was a real threat to his people, but it was also a pretext to get his war going. The final scene between Namor and Namora solidified my read on his motivations.
@@AllGreyEverything it was an ultimate taste seeing as though, Wakanda was more advance. So, he proposed if they were an ally or enemy. But, the true enemy of the movie really was the government and honestly, I agreed with Namor’s motives 😅
Something that needs to happen now more than ever in the MCU especially after the events of Wakanda Forever, Shuri and Peter Parker talking about their similar experiences, I thought they had a lot in common before, even more so now, all of Shuri's Family is gone, almost the exact same situation with Peter Parker.
The two Black Panther films have gotten audience applause when the end credits rolled from the Opening Night Screenings I was in, I don't know if that was everyone else's experiences but that says a lot about what these characters mean to so many people. "Nuff Said."
I left the movie still wishing they had Recastted T'Challa. What Marvel did was an uneasy compromise. They will need to do the work to develop young T'Challa. I did enjoy the film,
Something that I was not expecting in this film was Val, not only being in the film that she is Everett K. Ross' ex, however now we True Believers know how she knew how to get in touch with John Walker in "Falcon and The Winter Solider" and how she can loan out hitmen for people with a lot of Money, as of course putting together The Thunderbolts.
So much greatness in this movie, but one little call back gave me goosebumps and it was when Shuri said the line from Civil War about Vengeance consuming him. *Chef's kiss* Also when the talochans attack the ship at the start, and there's a few out in the water as Sirens. Sooo eerie and beautiful
Guys did you notice that civil war scene with tchalla and baron zemo in civil war where tchalla wanted to kill him but he literally said "i'm done with vengeance consuming me"!!!
I feel like the movie would have had even more impact if there was a more obvious Shuri/Namor connection. It would have ramped up the tension and the heartbreak of the conflict beyond the political into another dimension of pain, loss and love all mixed in. When Namor gave Shuri his mothers necklace I was convinced he might propose a union through marriage. Maybe Coogler felt the more subtle approach was best for the film overall. In the comics, Namor is one of Marvel's greatest lovers!
Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought M'Baku became the new King at the end and Shuri maintained the title of Black Panther. Both mantles do not need to be occupied by the same person. This is coming from T'Chala in civil war when he told Steve Rogers he has both mantles because of the death of T Chaka.
The absence of music in some scenes was such an interesting choice. Namor was phenomenal. I cannot wait to see more of him. This entire film was done with such respect and gratitude. I’m in awe of Ryan Coogler
When I left the cinema last night, I could not think about anything usually, I have certain thoughts about how I am going to write my review, not this time, I couldn't think of what I was going to write until after I ate Dinner and have some time to myself, I did write my review, but it was one of the more difficult ones I have written.
Grief, anger, revenge. Yes! What I love is that this movie speaks to the collective grief humanity has experienced from Covid, and it will be cathartic for a lot of people beyond just the collective grief and love for Chadwick as well. The world needed this movie right now. It manages to be incredibly specific and personal as a character piece, while managing to be universal at the same time which imho is the best kind of movie. 100% Angela Bassett needs an Oscar nom for this one. It's such a SOLID screenplay, they stuck the landing on theme and character, props to the writers and Ryan for not quitting but putting himself through making what would have been an incredibly difficult time! ❤
I really enjoy the movie a lot I was surprised at how much I did but like you asked Hector I’m interested to see why people say they don’t like it because I’ve actually been seeing quite a bit a people saying they didn’t really enjoy it. Great review as always and almost at 100k subs keep grinding guys!!!
First, I'm glad you don't drop your movie reviews until after the movie comes out. Now, I've lost my mom and grandparents in the last 4 years. The first and last 5 minutes were heavy! The exploration of grief if something I really connected with. Namor was excellent! Angela Bassett needs an Oscar nom. I give this movie 8.5 out of 10. I loved it. It's a different type of movie that can't be totally compared to the original. It stands on it's own.
there was one lady full on wailing at our premiere. the rest of us were visibly sad but she was full on distraught when T’Challa showed. it kinda took everyone out of the moment 😅
It was a gutsy move by Marvel Studios, in my view, not to recast to T'Challa because honestly it would have been easier to do, than have T'Challa be dead, I wasn't expecting to cry during T'Challa's Funeral, although I almost did.
I cried watching the representation of Latinos like the city of Talocan and the Mayan language because for all Latinos, our ancestors were proud coming from Aztec or Mexican ancestry it's a privilege Tlazohcamati Marvel
6:02 I think *every* MCU film could probably be benefited by being watched twice tbh: - If it's a disappointing film (like Thor: Loca and Thunder), then you might enjoy it more the 2nd time bcos you know what to expect going in - if it's a great film (like Winter Soldier or Infinity War), then watching it again will always be enjoyable, but you might also notice/ appreciate things that you missed the first time bcos you were too distracted by the excitement, etc
Imperious Rex omg that alone makes this one of my favorite comic book movie I loved namor as an antagonist but I also felt wakanda and tulcan shouldn’t be fighting but overall happy with the conclusion and namors fate and hopefully future
Jesus, Mayans, or the Namor ppl are NOT Latinos they are native Americans who were invaded by Latinos. That's like saying that Natives from the USA are English
Yeah, this annoys me so much. But goes to show how unfortunately effective their subjugation of the lower part of America was. People don't even realize Namor isn't even a bit Hispanic
I totally concur with Hector about the Cinema Experience, I cannot go to concerts because being in a wheelchair, certain people do not watch out for people like myself, so I am all about the Cinema Experience especially for Marvel Studios films, I have been telling everyone this that I can, if one has not seen "Black Panther: Wakanda Forever" in a Premium Large Format such as Regal RPX or Cinemark XD, please do so, this film was not meant to be seen on a TV Screen.
Your reaction was extremely thoughtful and thorough. I was conflicted watching the movie (yesterday), and the emotions I experienced were exhausting. Totally agreed with you on the fighting between black and brown people; it hurt to watch that. But the ending gave some promise, some hope - and despite the losses throughout, I felt there was a future. Angela Bassett deserves an Oscar nomination. And yes: the languages, Lupita Nyong'o's skills, loved that.
I have often thought that it would be interesting to see a re-reaction from you either of TV series or movies. And for several reasons: first, because I've often experienced it myself (probably everyone does), that the second time around you not only discover things you missed the first time, but also often take a different perspective and see the movie or episode in a different light. Of course, it depends on the time gap. I wanted to suggest this a few times, but I didn't dare, because I'm very aware of how much work the video editing and everything around it costs. I am in any case, whether it is a series such as Loki or Mandalorian, etc. or movies. For Marvel phase 4, I would definitely start with Black Widow. It would just be exciting to see how your assessments and opinions in the rewatch, whether or what has changed and why (I watched this review only until the spoiler section, as I haven't be able so far to watch this movie).
I liked that the Yucatán peninsula and Haiti are in this script, both places have history of armed resistance against colonial rule and struggle for autonomy. Of course Haiti was successful kinda, and the Zapatistas are still struggling, but it’s interesting.
Check out our Patreon for more exclusive reactions: bit.ly/patreon_reforged
Yo idk if you guys noticed but the "martha" moment was modeled after the ending of the soviet war film Come And See where the kid is shooting the picture of hitler and war footage is playing in reverse. The reversal of the war stuff going back to the before times in both films is meant to show the protagonist that killing the villain isn't worth it.
why did you guys change the channel name ? what happened ? resubscribed!
@@wolf7alice It's always been Heroes Reforged
@@HeroesReforged A great and grand and emotional and not-pitch-perfect movie with pitch-perfect performances IMO.
A superhero movie where the plot is basically the five stages of grief was a brilliant choice and Ryan Coogler deserves everything awesome.
Wanda should learn something from the Wakandans
@@naidamar1 😭😭😭😭😭
Avengers Endgame literally had every Avenger portray a stage of grief not once, but twice lol
After the five year jump:
Hawkeye - Anger
Nat - Denial
Thor - Depression
Bruce - Bargaining
Tony - Acceptance
After Nat’s death:
Clint: Acceptance
Tony: Depression
Steve: Bargaining
Bruce: Anger
Thor: Denial
I’m not tryna take anything away from Wakanda Forever bc I love it, but acting like it’s the first super hero movie to do this isn’t exactly corrext
@@Shortyd17 he never said it was the first, and you thinking he is acting is you projecting. You need to know yourself bud because you are taking away from the movie.
This movie was excellent. It was unexpected and I was surprised. I wish they'd give OKOYE a solo film.
I loved how serious and scary Talokans introduction was every time they came up on screen. That scene on boat with Namor in shadows, Talokans singing like mermaids hypnotizing everyone to jump to their deaths that scientist desperately trying to run and fight for her life? I love how serious and intense it was. Not many jokes flying around this time and I loved it much more.
I had absolutely NO IDEA that Haiti was going to be in this movie; but as a Haitian ....the way my face LIT UP when I saw Haiti !!! Absolutely LOVED IT !!!
That's pretty awesome. Good for you! 👏🏼
And having junior's Haitian name be Touissant was a great nod to the OG anti-colonizer.
@@raynwolfsbane2084 GOOSEBUMPS !!!
As someone who honestly didn't give a damn about the Namor character. I absolutely loved his character in this movie. Especially the switch up to being a lost mesoamérican tribe. Loved his back story and the way he got his name as well. Bad ass! Can't wait for him to get a solo film to explore more of Talokan.
I'm a big fan of Namor and I really liked the MCU version of this character not as arrogant or as good looking as I wanted him to be but still a very well done adaptation
@@mickeymouse7726 did u just call huerta ugly? The nerve
@@mickeymouse7726 tired of good looking, 1-D villains. Lmao, this is more my speed
i look forward to see more of Attuma, since he is main villain of namor.
@@danielmedjedovic7068 i said the EXACT same thing. i was like “Attuma?? where’d you go buddy” 😭
A moment that's etched into my brain: when Namor makes the choice to attack Wakanda.
Namora is shouting at him who's gonna stop them, as he is holding the body of the girl that Nakia shot, he delivers that "Me" line with so much bottled up anger and power.
The Mexican delegation can be damn proud of Huerta.
I literally got shivers up my spine when I heard that. I wasn´t a big fan of Namor but I love this version of him.
I knew that the film would be emotional for a lot of people. But I know that it was surprising to some of the people around me that, for them to see a 57 year old white dude was so upset about the death of T'Challa and Chadwick Boseman, that it brought me to tears and sobbing in my seat. Luck for me, my daughter was sitting next to me and she just grabbed my arm tight and said, "Papa. It's OK to cry. He was your hero." And then my youngest son sitting on the other side of me, grabbed my other arm and my hand and said, "I know daddy. The King died and the actor died too. I'm sorry."
A woman that was sitting near to us, spoke to me when the credits were rolling. And she said that she was surprised to see me crying during the movie. And that she did not expect anybody besides Black People to be emotional about it. And I told her that ... "When it was announced that Chadwick had died, I sat in my office and cried for over an hour. And now in this film, it felt like my King had just died now to."
Then I said, "I loved T'Challa in the first film. The way that he was played by Chadwick, made me wish I was from Wakanda! And that Wakanda to me, just brought my mind back to one of my heroes when I was a kid ... Martin Luther King Jr. and his I have a Dream speech. They were both so inspiring to me."
She just smiled at me and nodded her head.
It's amazing how all of the people that worked on these films, along with Ryan and Chadwick, were able to make you feel admiration for the Country of Wakanda and it's people. That you wish you were a part of all of it. It is simply brilliant and magical!
To Augustine's point about how the conflict between Talocan and Wakanda wasn't something to be cheered on, I'd like to take it a step further and say I think you can read it as the explicit tragedy of the wake of colonialism on victimized cultures. I earnestly believe the villain of this movie was not Namor, but colonialism itself. The way colonialism pushed Talocan and influenced Wakanda to isolationism and distrust of other cultures, including cultures who were also victims of displacement and conquest, poignantly echoes real history, albeit in an obviously more fantastical way.
This movie to my mind was itself a confrontation and refutation of the tired trope of black and brown communities being antagonized in popular media. Everett Ross's subplot showed explicitly that the US and other western countries' violent pursuit of resources that did not belong to them lead directly to Talocan being forced to defend itself against what they had every reason to believe were hostile outsiders. Hell, one of the military officials in the room with Val and Ross floated "destabilization" as a necessary response to stop Wakanda from interfering with their theft of vibranium. This story was about more than just the mourning of T'challa and Chadwick, it was also the ongoing grief of colonized cultures still reckoning with their collective traumas.
That aspect of the film moved me deeply, because my country, The Philippines is also deeply scarred from Spanish colonialism. Intersectional racism is a huge issue in my culture too, and I think there's a case to be made that colonized cultures unintentionally recreate the destructive hierarchies that oppressed them in order to survive in a harshly competitive world, not just by this movie, but even in Ms. Marvel, when it showed how the British partition pit India and Pakistan against each other. I know that these themes were present in the comics from the beginning, but seeing them being tackled at this scale while also honoring someone who put his all into that kind of art makes me hopeful that world is going in a better direction.
This was beautifully said
Wow! So deep 🤞
I have to screenshot this one. ❤
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve been saying some version of these things to myself since I got out of the theater last night. Thank you for posting this!
@@kahoots7724 Thank you! That’s very sweet of you!
one of the unique things about my viewing was that my theater was silent most of the time. everyone was trying to breathe through it and process it in real time. During the big fight scenes everyone was like "no, stop! you're the same!" and I really appreciated that because yes. the very obvious parallels included just made the fights really sad. i've never felt more relief from an audience than when shuri and namor had their yield moment. honestly, it's a movie that takes a while to process, and I only really had one gripe the entire movie. I really loved it.
The final scene between shuri and Namor sold the film for me. I feel these two characters will be forever connected. The crowd was somber when I watched it. It was so quiet, but you could tell everyone was enthralled.
Yeah when Shuri looked like she was about to be done and she remembered that she told Killmonger she was gonna make Namor beg for mercy then she pulled herself off the spike I was like bruh, this is arguably the most badass super hero moment in entire mcu
Right!? When she said the line, "Vengeance has consumed us", I legit gasped and my eyes started watering!
@@maul_360 It was more like a conflict, than a battle. Cause it resulted in an armistice.
I absolutely loved the scene at the end where Shuri has that moment of closure and we see images of Chadwick. Was super emotional and cathartic just having that moment to remember him and what he did.
the montages throughout were amazing
That made me tear up and shuri’s interaction with her nephew. The happiness and hope she had on her face made tears roll down my face. She deserved a happy ending.
@@mellowscorpio that montage is why I started bawling 😭😭
That was the only bit I felt didn’t live up to what the character development, specifically Shuri. Why did she only think about her brother? Yes, he was previous King but what about her mother who she just lost and her Father who died in an explosion?.
I appreciate how they honored Chadwick Bosman
@@Jason_xofilos because it's a tribute to Chadwick because he actually died, not everything has to be storyline related
To Augustin’s point about Black and Brown people fighting, my cousin and I said essentially the same thing about what we thought Ryan Coogler was trying to accomplish. We’re both Indigenous, and I’m also Black and Latina. I spent most of the filmed very distressed because I saw two Indigenous nations who have chosen to remain reclusive largely in reaction to Western imperialist and colonialist violence at war with each other because of…Western imperialist and colonialist violence (U.S. perpetrated in this specific instance). It was deeply uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating to watch (my cousin and I were like, and now you’re two assholes fist fighting in the desert). But, it was also a deeply insightful commentary on Coogler’s part WRT lateral violence, what happens when peoples under threat by Western imperialist, colonialist violence choose to fight versus unite, and differing reactions to the trauma of it all. That was a lot to try and undertake in a Marvel film, and I appreciated it.
Wakanda Forever was such a beautiful love letter to Chad Boseman. I cried, I laughed, I held my daughter close in my arms with love and gratitude. We experienced all stages of grief with these characters, especially Shuri, but we also got to experience the excellence of both cultures. RiRi Williams is my new favorite character in the MCU, and Namor is easily one of my favorite antagonist we’ve gotten so far.
One of the moments that hit me to the core was when Namor told Shuri “ both of our people have been enslaved.” Man that gave me chills!!! And that mid credit scene OMG I lost it 😭
💯
That mid credit was the one that I feel they did me and the fans who wanted T'Challa recast dirty.
That was a cheat. A cheap, tagged-on cheat.
@@themadafaka6839 instead of jumping to conclusions, why not wait and see how they use the character moving forward? This is the multiverse saga, anything can happen. Also Ryan Coogler and Marvel don’t owe the fans anything. They have the story they want to tell and it’s up to us to either go with that story or not. At the end of the day if you’re not happy with their decisions, you can always go back to the comics and revisit those stories.Just wait and see what happens and trust the process. Have a good weekend 🙅🏾♀️
@@Aishakenya824 well, every bad decisions that were predicted, rumored, theorized turned out to be true in this movie, so.. The chances are they will make a lot more mistake and missteps moving forward. And if you're fine with that..keep swallowing s**t they're giving.
Me?
as a fan of the movies AND the comics, I'm concerned enough to WANT the movies to be good moving forward.
And from what I've been seeing in phase 4, they're slipping.
And u said they don't owe us..?? U slow..?
We PAID to watch their movies..their PRODUCTS. We do have A SAY.
@@themadafaka6839 That’s your opinion, in my opinion it was a GOOD decision. Also in the comics T’Challa was raised away from Wakanda , as a child after his father passed. So simply put, Ryan Coogler is following the comics. As a comic fan this should make you happy correct?
Also there was no need to use profanity in your response. It’s sounds like you may be going through something right now and to that I say…I hope your day gets better and whatever you’re going through will soon pass. God bless and enjoy the rest of your day! 💕
Great review. We saw an early show today with less than 15 people. There were no cheers. Lots of tears and gasps when Shuri and Namor go up against each other. I felt the trope of black and brown fighting worrisome going in, but found that the three main characters were depicted struggling with their shadow. Distrust and revenge are powerful dark shadows. I felt the gesture of giving Shuri the bracelet which ultimately gives her the power is powerful. The scene between them was delicate and powerful. This made the violence in the desert so painful to watch as Namor pounded at Shuri’s panther. The immediate reaction of a male godlike creature brutally hitting the female panther was alarming. But it was equally brutal when she ripped his wings off his foot. I could only feel sadness and thought how can this end? The reintroduction of the mothers and the unwinding of the attack on Wakanda seemed to represent regret. It wiped the shadows away. Brought them back to two people facing each other. Very powerful. Then to introduce the new character in the mid credit scene made me feel like the mourning was complete. Beautiful. As it should be. We move forward. I was impressed. And grateful for your evaluation. Thx.
Truly Marvel wasn't fuckin around this time! Kudos to everyone involved who made Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.
That was a well considered breakdown of racial and gender themes I hadn't thought about. To be honest, my thoughts were a little more one-dimensional, like: Jesus this conflict is irrational.
The way they highlighted the fact that violence only begets more violence in a neverending cycle made me reflect on the absurdity of it all. The whole "murdering innocent men, women and children to save innocent men, women and children" thing. That's not strictly a mark against the film. If anything, it's a critical (and unflattering) reflection of actual large scale rivalries and the absurdity of it all.
But it somewhat lessened my respect for the villain. In the first film (before he went full Bond supervillain) it seemed like Killmonger was actually winning the moral argument about the negative qualities surrounding Wakanda's isolationist policies and in fact changed the protagonist's mind by the end. This character followed a similar dizzying arc. From trying to use concise violence to preclude a potential threat to his people to "everyone must BURN". The scene of children and families drowning in the unprovoked strike against Wakanda demonstrated the unraveling sanity of such a childish plan. I couldn't help but feel like Namor was throwing a tantrum.
Still fine though. Humans aren't entirely rational creatures under the best of circumstances, let alone when powerful emotions are fighting a civil war in our minds. But I couldn't help but roll my eyes at Namor and sigh heavily thinking, "Fine. What's a little manslaughter between friends I suppose?"
As someone who lives in the Yucatán Península, hearing the name of the cities and the Mayan lenguage was so f beautiful. Watching a cenote and the pyramids was so important to me because I really thought about the native people that are often ignored and made fun of for their culture, I cried a lot tbh
A lot of the movie was in Mayan, a song on the soundtrack is a rap in Mayan, the music in the background when the people from talocan were on the screen was made with native instruments.
It really meant a lot to me and I'm sure to a lot more
Little thing that I loved was that Talokan had an equivalent exhortation to Wakanda: “Rise Talokan” is their “Wakanda Forever”. So much parallelism! Imagine how it would have been if Namor was actually courting Sheri! There were hints, but she wasn’t in a place to even consider it because of the circumstances and conditions he put on an alliance. Plus Shuri is so young and Namor so much older, it wouldn’t work in this story. But it was an intriguing story point.
I got that vibe too. Marriages are how nations traditionally avoided warfare. You would have the blood of both nations sitting on each Throne.
I’ll get behind that storyline 😂
Okay, I am glad I am not the only one who felt that ship. I was so mad that he was the direct cause of her mother's death, because you can't really move past the to a romance. I felt like he was the most human with her and had a soft spot for her. I think the Queen passing was an important turning point for Shuri, but couldn't it have been a little more indirect?! 😩
Their age difference isn't as big as Thor's and Jane's though.
I love that Haiti was included - there is relevance in including real-world places and people beyond simply being settings and background, respectively
Angela Basset and Lupita Nyong’o get my MVP votes.
Best female lead movie of all-time in my opinion
It's Tenoch for me
Danai Gurira for me, the emotions she displayed when her character got demoted, really had me in my feelings. I feel like she is overlooked.
I think what was interesting about the Namor and his people having vibranium is showing how different people use it. They use it for jewelry, armory and architecture, but with Mayan culture. Even seeing Steve Rogers use it as a defense weapon, and especially that line from Julia Lewis Dryfus of the USA having vibranium, what they could do. It is fascinating and scary powerful resource.
The silent Marvel / Chadwick opening gutted me. Sobbed like a baby.
It was absolutely silent and when I saw Chad’s face I just burst into tears (both during the opening and closing of the film)
same
Yes! Tears streamed down with the silent opening. I brought an entire tissue box. I knew I was going to sob!
The theatre was so silent and i was crying so hard and genuinely had to try so hard to keep my cries silent, just absolutely gutting
I lost my dad and two other relatives a year and a half ago, and I just did not know how to process the intro. I was like stuck in neutral with my emotions...
There's so much I can say about this movie, but I'll say this:
1) The Marvel/ Disney exec notes that Nate Moore, Coogler, & Chadwick fought against while filming Black Panther was for T'Challa to have a British accent. For Coogler to double down in Wakanda Forever and make Prince T'Challa Haitian is *chef's kiss*
Give Coogler all the awards!!
I think Marvel Studios has also learned in its Fourteen Years as a studio, which by the way, blows my mind that it has been that long, that Feige and his team can introduce new characters like RiRi Williams without putting a big Neon Sign behind her, "Don't forget to watch 'IronHeart' " which was a much bigger issue Marvel Studios has had in years past.
I’m glad you had a great theater experience. I live in Japan and movie theater crowds are expected to be dead silent at all times, so for the past year, every Marvel movie I’ve seen in theaters, there is no reaction from the audience ever 😭 I had to cry as silently as possible while watching this movie, trying not to disturb anyone
Aww, man. I wish you could see it in the States because I wept so much. I tried to be quiet, but I was so emotional.
Aww
23:50 This is interesting to see how people could react to that type of scenes because my theatre experience was not cheering for it at all, the crowd litteraly BOOED when they saw nakia killing the talokan women during the infiltration. I really feel like most people could feel the unnecessary violence between the two communities. There were no villains and heroes and i really think they showed it well.
To piggyback on what you said Adam, I felt the biggest villain was death... I loved the movie, it's definitely hits harder if you've lost a love one!
#wakandaforever
My theater was full of black and brown and we all walked out proud but also reflective. We were definitely more so in pain when they were all fighting. Like we hurt for everyone , by the time we got to the final fight we were all in tears. I think that’s what coolger wanted. The truth is we fight , but we can always do better. Loved ur breakdown 🤎
I couldn't believe how much emotions I felt in this movie. Sadness, happiness, excitement, dread, and at the end joy. This is one of my favorite Marvel movies because it is one of my favorite movies.
I love how this Phase builds out the real and mythological history of different cultures: Ms Marvel, Eternals, Shang Chi and now Wakanda Forever.
This was the first MCU movie that I felt strongly you had to engage with it at a deeper level to see how incredible it was. Like y'all mentioned with folks cheering at seemingly the "wrong" action sequences, I think people walking in an action packed superhero movie that they could watch mindlessly are going to be disappointed/frustrated. But if audiences can stay engaged with the quieter character moments, it becomes an incredible piece of art about grief and loss.
Completely agree, and well said. I was struck at how personal and introspective this film was. My favorite moments of the film were, in fact, the quieter emotional moments.
Everyone in the theater tonight was crying. I mean audibly weeping. Namor was awesome and love how they brought him into MCU.
I went alone. Took my hat off. Pulled my hoodie up as far as it could... and proceeded to cry 4 different times through the film.
, philharmonique x, Å G c huh BVC cycle+89u and c
Man, I liked the movie, but walked out saying “first one was better”. Then I slept on it and listened to y’all discuss it? And now I’m hyped to go watch it again. Appreciate each of your insights and just overall nerdness for all things Marvel (and beyond)! Thank you and keep up the good work!
Maybe it's because of the action packed scenes in the first one. This second one was indeed supposed to be T'Challa vs Namor, but Ryan Coogler didn't even know what Chadwick was going through until his passing. So they have to change the story of the sequel a bit and that's why I think although the original plot of fighting Namor is still there, instead of having a lot of action scenes they decided to make it as a way of paying tribute to Chadwick while still incorporating the original plot. Very good movie nonetheless 🙌
The silence in my theater in the very last scene, where Shuri is burning her funeral robe on the beach, was defining...and rather impressive. I've never heard such a silent theater in my life - it felt appropriate. Good stuff.
I noticed that same silence in my theater. I was actually shocked out of the moment briefly to acknowledge how quiet it was.
I love the moments of absolute silence in tribute to Chadwick in this. So beautifully done.
My theater had it twice, the first time during the marvel logo and again during the robe burning
@@cambion_entertainment Indeed. It was nice to see that particular logo again.
I loved shuri's theme during her entrance. I got chills. Her emotional journey was perfect and that's coming from someone who was sceptical about shuri being the black panther.
No one cheered seeing Wakanda vs. Talocan in the theater I was in. In fact, they were a bit reserved. It was awesome seeing Kilmonger and Valentina. To know T'challa had a child. It was something I didn't consider. But, I'm so happy they did it the way they did.
Over the years, Marvel has done this narrative technique where they might take 2 or 3 characters from the comics and make them a singular hybrid character. What Ryan did was brilliant....he took T'Challa and split him into 2 separate characters with the introduction of his son. This way Chadwick is the true T'Challa but we will one day see a Black Panther with T'Challa in the suit.
And also, if he gets aged up at any point (they're about to fight Kang and all) and becomes Black Panther, then they could do the Storm romance without hurting Nakia which they would have had to do otherwise.
Oh wow. Didn't consider the Kang angle.
Really good call!
I’m really excited to see how that plays out. Will they age him up? Will we watch him grow? I’m patiently waiting for the next chapter.
Agree with you about Attuma. Having him go up against Okoye was a great way to show how much of a threat he was. Cause Okoye is like the top fighter of wakanda and yet Attuma was managing to give her a run for her money. Well done.
WandaVision using the five stages of grief to drive the plot was unique. Wakanda Forever doing the same was perfection.
Well, if there is a theme in Phase IV, it's Trauma Guilt, Pain and what effects that all three have on people.
I got advanced tickets and the Latinos made up the majority of the crowd. AND IN ALL WHITE TOO. Love to see it.
I wish my theater had the sad reaction. My theater had mostly Latino and whites in it, both races wore white, black people told them they shouldn’t be wearing white because they’ll never understand. I’m Latino, it sucks. It’s very odd to me, but those confrontations definitely took some of the excitement and joy out of the movie unfortunately.
@@AnonymousGrogu what you mean
@@AnonymousGrogu Never understand what? Losing someone they love?
@@king_julian327 No, I’ll never understand why other races “aren’t supposed to” wear white to this.
@@TheMagicJIZZ I mean that only black people were supposed to wear white to this and no other races? So us as Latinos and white people were confronted about it.
The things I liked about the movie are:
- For me the trailers actually lead you away from what the movie actually entailed
- The surprise at what happened to the Queen, the son, etc
- Dreyfus appearance/married to Ross
- General losing her job
- Moments of silence in opening credits and end scene
- I really like that Shuri was allowed to show her grief and anger
- I also like that even tho Shuri was the Black Panther, they showed its training and the herb that makes them the fighters.
I agree with ALL of this! The trailers show you a fight so you know something is going to happen. But I wasn’t expecting Shuri to go down there and be introduced to their world.
I was so so pissed I shouted out what!! At te queen I forgot I was at the movies with tons of folks. I'm still hot 🔥.. I truly got to watch it again after the shock, excitement and emotional trauma..
@@justicebolton4844 lol we’re you at my theater? Someone at my theater shouted “What!” After Ramonda fired Okoye.
Serious note tho I couldn’t believe she was fired, like I actually feel pretty conflicted about that lol.
@@christopherjove7035 😁😁I think that was me , because I was like What, What just happened!
And how about that surprise appearance from Killmonger.
I think it did a great job of showing grief, so many people lost someone in 2020 and I recently lost two people last year and this movie brings up all the emotions you feel when you remember those you lost. It feels like not only a love letter to Chadwick but to everyone we lost. Her remembering her brother and being able to smile at the end was so powerful.
When shuri ripped off his little wings that shit was brutal. Loved Namor. This was a well written movie. Excited for the next phase
Namor telling his story and him saying the word mutant was my geek out moment of the movie…
Yeah, that term when namor said that popped several people in the audience I was in Opening Night.
"Vengeance has consumed us. We cannot let it consume our people." When Shuri says that line it hit me different. The movie was powerful in so many ways. The intro when there is no sound simply the images of T'challa rolling by in Marvels classic title screen, sent me into tears. It was completely silent in the theater. Then again in the end when Shurri burns the cermonial garb and we see more images of T'challa I lost it. There were definitely some story elements that could have been better, but this movie was a great tribute and also a great way for us all to burn that cermeonial garb and move forward.
Ryan Coogler, the cast & crew deserve all the praises! I love the introduction of Riri and how the scene mirrors peter & Tony first moment in civil war and their connection.
Just came out of the theatre 2 hours ago. Was hoping for this, this movie moved me, brought me to tears and blew me away. I'm gonna watch it again next weekend!
Pretty sure I spent half the movie balling. Dammit.
I think 5-10 years of Shuri as BP is a good amount of time for us to grieve and move on from Chadwick before T'challa is 'recast'
I can't say enough of what I love about this film, truly. One of my favorite scenes was with Angela and Danai when Queen Mother was stripping Okoye of her warrior duties. It was so hard, wow. I cried SOOOO much in the film, all allusions to Chadwick/T'Challa, but also callbacks to other MCU moments, like trying earlier Iron Man suits (when RiRi was going up too high). I was so emotional when Shuri became Black Panther, when Queen mother passed, when Nakia was talking to Okoye and said T'Challa was everything.
Namor is how you write an anti hero... Not venom not morbious
I loved Namor, Namora, and Attuma- everything about the Talocan - the way Namor chose his name was inspired
Agree. Loved Na'mor.
Arnold: IT'S NOT ATTUMA!
With them showing the child, they can finally do the original backstory of Plack Panther, where he is raised outside of Wakanda and returns to become king and take over the mantel, without ever knowing his father.
You guys are quickly becoming my favorite comic book movie channel
This Phase 4 was about, grief and loss, horizontal universe expansion, passing the mantle and legacy, and Multiverse. At the time of Endgame, the MCU felt big already, but Avenger's centric, but after this Phase 4, the MCU feels incredibly rich and diverse, Marvel is putting the ``Cinematic Universe`` concept bar extremely high.
I thought it was great. A great conclusion to Phase 4. This phase of the MCU has been dealing with the themes of grief and persevering during tough times in most of the projects.
Great movie. Great cast. Great costumes. Scary villain. Great post credits. My theater clapped at the end - Matinee today.
My family and I saw it Thursday night with only about 25 people in the theater. I always go to the earliest screenings, so our showtime was 3:30. Definitely no hype from the audience. I really enjoyed the movie. It was a wonderful tribute to Chadwick and pulled at all the feelings and emotions. Solid MCU addition.
I went to a similar screening the first time I saw it. Same day and time, more people but rather quiet. It makes a difference to see it with a hyped crowd.
Saw it Thursday with a small crowd in theater. The beginning it was dead silent… can’t wait to see it again
I love how Marvel established the aztecas ancestral platform for such an iconic character likeNAMOR, rather than an Atlantian setup. And the parallel grief brought into the film for Chadwick/Black Panther was executed just right.
LOVED the Throne Room scene with Ramonda & Okoye, gave me chills! Give me the Dora Milaje D+ Show with Ayo, Aneka & Okoye getting more screen time! RIP Kevin Conroy - THE BATMAN to an entire generation!
An Oscar worthy performance from Letitia and Angela 👏 the silence in the scene, the emotion, the way they delivered every line oh my god I get chills everytime.
They probably wouldn't be considered Oscar worthy because it's a superhero movie but, the pain and sadness felt so much more real and true (and was) than the usual Oscar bait movie that it would absolutely deserve the awards.
I turned 50 in April. I've been a sucker for stories that dwell in grief and how we process it. Far From Home, WandaVision, and Loki all dealt with forms of grief in honest ways. WandaVision was a practically a love letter to loss. What Wakanda Forever understood and expressed clearly is how grief becomes a part of us and eventually a part of us all. No one is immune to it. I appreciated wallowing in it with these amazing performances.
The moment Shuri relented reminded me of the end of The Last of Us Part II, where it was about letting go, finding solace, and connecting with what has been lost instead of destroying out of pain. I made NO connection between that moment and the Martha moment in BvS. Yikes. Farthest thing from my mind. This felt earned.
Those final shots of Shuri on the beach were stunning. Beautiful emotion, model, setting, and photography. I also wonder what it's like to have no body fat, frankly. Her neck goes IN when she swallows. I've inherited my family's dulap jowls, so watching such perfect people on screen is like seeing another species.
Bro seeing Namor witness colonization of mexico, I was balling. Then he explain how he used the Spanish name given to him as power, oh lord. As a Mexican American there is alot to get through on religion ,the Spanish we speak, and how over the years lighter skin ment not bieng a slave so a self imposed/Forced genocide of our dark skined ancestors.
(I’m black) I was so uneasy during the big fight and winced at the cheering for the Wakandans. I was heartened to see how the conflict was resolved. I’m so hoping the Latin community is as proud of Namor, Namora, and the other personal and cultural representations as I was enlightened and elated in seeing it.
Thanks. It was hard to watch for me so I'm glad someone agrees. I needed a clearer anti violence in our cultures message. I don't think I got it.
I wasn't uneasy during the fight scenes. I knew both Wakanda and Talocan were going to hit an impasse. But, I understand what you are saying. I didn't want them to fight but the course had been set. I was satisfied how it ended though.
the war has no color so I'm not sure why you guys continue to keep saying this nonsense
wars have happened for years among same races different races war is people fighting people.
@@bionicwoman9884 I understand why you don’t understand. I’m not here to give you a free lesson that you feel you don’t need. Have a great rest of your life.
Its been 6 years (Nakia gave birth lets say 2018, or get pregnant before the blip). They come back from the blip in 2023, and its been a year since he passed, so its at least 2024, and one of the Marvel execs says the movie happened right the events of NWH so we're looking at late 2024/early 2025 so the child is approximately 5 to 6 years old.
Loosing my mum recently I knew going into this movie that it will be very emotional,also for that reason for me, and the way characters dealt with loss actually made me realize what I feel and hopefully will help me get throough my loss better.This movie made my theater silent in many moments and the post credits scene was a great way to pay tribute to T'challa and Chadwick while at the same time carrying his legacy.Perfect way to finish phase four :)
I saw some comments complaining about Talokan being too dark, but the ocean is dark. It is incredibly dark. It's part of the reason why it is so terrifying, as is demonstrated in the cold open of the movie. I know why Avatar and some other movies make underwater a lot brighter, to make is shiny and full of wonder, but I appreciate the deep dark depths. That is what the ocean is to me, an endless cold darkness, full of both life and danger. Not a place where surface-dwellers belong.
Also, I agree with the fight scenes. Whenever Wakanda and Talokan fought, I did not cheer. I just wanted them to stop! I wanted them to stop hurting one another.
The best part is it doesn't matter if you belong to that particular community or share that history, the film still draws you into its world and make you love & care about the characters. That there loss feels so personal and that's what Ryan coogler brings.
Well, Namor did tell Shuri. He wanted to join forces because of the colonialism of the yt people. It was never the intention but when Nakia killed one of his people. All bets were off
Yup. Nakia was in the wrong.
It's was understandable from her perspective, but still wrong.
U do find it disappointing that 2 Wakanda films with the idea of addressing colonizer wrongs have passed, with nary a yt country being touched.
It's starting to seem intentional.
I didn't see it that way exactly. Namor didn't come to Wakanda with a plea or offer of cooperation and he easily could have if he wanted a true ally. Instead, he came with a demand to see if they would submit to him. Just like M'Baku said, if they gave him what he demanded the first time, he would want more and more the next time. He only switched to an alliance (toward HIS goals) with Shiri because Wakanda didn't fold the first time. It was a tactic. He has always wanted to invade the surface world, but didn't have the military power. He saw in Wakanda an opportunity to aquire that military might. The vibranium mining was a real threat to his people, but it was also a pretext to get his war going. The final scene between Namor and Namora solidified my read on his motivations.
@@AllGreyEverything it was an ultimate taste seeing as though, Wakanda was more advance. So, he proposed if they were an ally or enemy. But, the true enemy of the movie really was the government and honestly, I agreed with Namor’s motives 😅
Something that needs to happen now more than ever in the MCU especially after the events of Wakanda Forever, Shuri and Peter Parker talking about their similar experiences, I thought they had a lot in common before, even more so now, all of Shuri's Family is gone, almost the exact same situation with Peter Parker.
You’re right they both lost everything.
The two Black Panther films have gotten audience applause when the end credits rolled from the Opening Night Screenings I was in, I don't know if that was everyone else's experiences but that says a lot about what these characters mean to so many people. "Nuff Said."
I left the movie still wishing they had Recastted T'Challa. What Marvel did was an uneasy compromise. They will need to do the work to develop young T'Challa. I did enjoy the film,
Something that I was not expecting in this film was Val, not only being in the film that she is Everett K. Ross' ex, however now we True Believers know how she knew how to get in touch with John Walker in "Falcon and The Winter Solider" and how she can loan out hitmen for people with a lot of Money, as of course putting together The Thunderbolts.
So much greatness in this movie, but one little call back gave me goosebumps and it was when Shuri said the line from Civil War about Vengeance consuming him. *Chef's kiss*
Also when the talochans attack the ship at the start, and there's a few out in the water as Sirens. Sooo eerie and beautiful
Guys did you notice that civil war scene with tchalla and baron zemo in civil war where tchalla wanted to kill him but he literally said "i'm done with vengeance consuming me"!!!
I absolutely loved this movie. I think I liked it more then the first one in a lot of ways.
Best Marvel movie since Endgame in my opinion
@@qcrew2938 it’s third for me. Fourth if you count Werewolf. But that’s no slight. I love them all.
I feel like the movie would have had even more impact if there was a more obvious Shuri/Namor connection. It would have ramped up the tension and the heartbreak of the conflict beyond the political into another dimension of pain, loss and love all mixed in. When Namor gave Shuri his mothers necklace I was convinced he might propose a union through marriage. Maybe Coogler felt the more subtle approach was best for the film overall. In the comics, Namor is one of Marvel's greatest lovers!
Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought M'Baku became the new King at the end and Shuri maintained the title of Black Panther. Both mantles do not need to be occupied by the same person. This is coming from T'Chala in civil war when he told Steve Rogers he has both mantles because of the death of T Chaka.
The absence of music in some scenes was such an interesting choice. Namor was phenomenal. I cannot wait to see more of him.
This entire film was done with such respect and gratitude. I’m in awe of Ryan Coogler
Just the silent "Marvel" intro with Chadwick images was a punch to the gut
@@djoscartj Yeah, it set the tone right away
When I left the cinema last night, I could not think about anything usually, I have certain thoughts about how I am going to write my review, not this time, I couldn't think of what I was going to write until after I ate Dinner and have some time to myself, I did write my review, but it was one of the more difficult ones I have written.
Grief, anger, revenge. Yes! What I love is that this movie speaks to the collective grief humanity has experienced from Covid, and it will be cathartic for a lot of people beyond just the collective grief and love for Chadwick as well. The world needed this movie right now. It manages to be incredibly specific and personal as a character piece, while managing to be universal at the same time which imho is the best kind of movie. 100% Angela Bassett needs an Oscar nom for this one. It's such a SOLID screenplay, they stuck the landing on theme and character, props to the writers and Ryan for not quitting but putting himself through making what would have been an incredibly difficult time! ❤
that excited chatter of a movie theatre before a movie starts to the opening scene and then the absolute silence of the Marvel credits flickering
I really enjoy the movie a lot I was surprised at how much I did but like you asked Hector I’m interested to see why people say they don’t like it because I’ve actually been seeing quite a bit a people saying they didn’t really enjoy it. Great review as always and almost at 100k subs keep grinding guys!!!
Not enough people of a particular complexion.
First, I'm glad you don't drop your movie reviews until after the movie comes out.
Now, I've lost my mom and grandparents in the last 4 years. The first and last 5 minutes were heavy! The exploration of grief if something I really connected with.
Namor was excellent! Angela Bassett needs an Oscar nom. I give this movie 8.5 out of 10. I loved it. It's a different type of movie that can't be totally compared to the original. It stands on it's own.
Cried like 2-3 times during the movie. Loved it.
there was one lady full on wailing at our premiere. the rest of us were visibly sad but she was full on distraught when T’Challa showed. it kinda took everyone out of the moment 😅
I had to fight back my own wail. I didn’t make a sound but I FELT like wail crying.
I NEVER expected to love the music as much as I did. I got serious Hans zimmer vibes in the later half
It was a gutsy move by Marvel Studios, in my view, not to recast to T'Challa because honestly it would have been easier to do, than have T'Challa be dead, I wasn't expecting to cry during T'Challa's Funeral, although I almost did.
I cried watching the representation of Latinos like the city of Talocan and the Mayan language because for all Latinos, our ancestors were proud coming from Aztec or Mexican ancestry it's a privilege Tlazohcamati Marvel
6:02 I think *every* MCU film could probably be benefited by being watched twice tbh:
- If it's a disappointing film (like Thor: Loca and Thunder), then you might enjoy it more the 2nd time bcos you know what to expect going in
- if it's a great film (like Winter Soldier or Infinity War), then watching it again will always be enjoyable, but you might also notice/ appreciate things that you missed the first time bcos you were too distracted by the excitement, etc
I know it wasn't a "good" thing, but I will fully admit, Suri going full revengeful feral and kicking someone's butt was very entertaining XD
I love how her suit looks like a mix of T’Challa and Killmonger
@@cambion_entertainment yeah! It also looks a bit techno-y, which suits her as well XD
Imperious Rex omg that alone makes this one of my favorite comic book movie I loved namor as an antagonist but I also felt wakanda and tulcan shouldn’t be fighting but overall happy with the conclusion and namors fate and hopefully future
In my opinion I don’t think namor is on wakanda side I think he’s using them to his advantage, his people come first. Maybe the read the scene wrong
Namor is always on his side only.
But he is an honorable man.
If he says he will do something, he will do it.
@@jakespeed8246 I got you I never read the comics so I was going off just the movie
Jesus, Mayans, or the Namor ppl are NOT Latinos they are native Americans who were invaded by Latinos. That's like saying that Natives from the USA are English
Yeah, this annoys me so much.
But goes to show how unfortunately effective their subjugation of the lower part of America was.
People don't even realize Namor isn't even a bit Hispanic
I totally concur with Hector about the Cinema Experience, I cannot go to concerts because being in a wheelchair, certain people do not watch out for people like myself, so I am all about the Cinema Experience especially for Marvel Studios films, I have been telling everyone this that I can, if one has not seen "Black Panther: Wakanda Forever" in a Premium Large Format such as Regal RPX or Cinemark XD, please do so, this film was not meant to be seen on a TV Screen.
Your reaction was extremely thoughtful and thorough. I was conflicted watching the movie (yesterday), and the emotions I experienced were exhausting. Totally agreed with you on the fighting between black and brown people; it hurt to watch that. But the ending gave some promise, some hope - and despite the losses throughout, I felt there was a future.
Angela Bassett deserves an Oscar nomination. And yes: the languages, Lupita Nyong'o's skills, loved that.
I loved this movie!! The thought of losing a sibling would bring me to my knees. That's a loss we don't contemplate often in cinema.
I was cheering when they both showed up on the plane at the end of the fight
Great review! Love hearing your guys' thoughts!
Same...they cheered in my theater
I had a lot of issues with the first Black Panther. I thought that Wakanda Forever was faultless.
I have often thought that it would be interesting to see a re-reaction from you either of TV series or movies. And for several reasons: first, because I've often experienced it myself (probably everyone does), that the second time around you not only discover things you missed the first time, but also often take a different perspective and see the movie or episode in a different light. Of course, it depends on the time gap. I wanted to suggest this a few times, but I didn't dare, because I'm very aware of how much work the video editing and everything around it costs. I am in any case, whether it is a series such as Loki or Mandalorian, etc. or movies. For Marvel phase 4, I would definitely start with Black Widow. It would just be exciting to see how your assessments and opinions in the rewatch, whether or what has changed and why (I watched this review only until the spoiler section, as I haven't be able so far to watch this movie).
Queen Ramonda was in the Ancestral Plane. We got a glimpse of her there when Shuri was about to kill Namor.
Just watched it and my theater crowd was so NOT HYPE. I got so sad. No Way Home was like a damn concert
I liked that the Yucatán peninsula and Haiti are in this script, both places have history of armed resistance against colonial rule and struggle for autonomy. Of course Haiti was successful kinda, and the Zapatistas are still struggling, but it’s interesting.