Well back in the spring, I fell victim to the so called experts on RCGroups forum and set most of my taildraggers to have toe in. These aircraft range from 40 size up to quarter scale. For several months my airplanes were weaving back and forth the width of the grass strip runway and often ended up in a ground loop. Let me tell you, it sure was effecting my psyche. I thought that I was loosing my skills. Even had one guy at our club ridding my ass telling me I need more time on a sim! I’ve been flying since the early 1980s with several long breaks in between.... Anyways, after watching your two videos on taildraggers, I reset my airplanes to just very slightly toe out. Man O man what a difference that made!!! My planes now run down the Centre of the runway and only need the very littlest of a tap on the Rudder to keep straight. Thanks Dag for having these very informative videos! You info has redeemed me. LOL 😆
Thanks for the post!! I may use this info in a future video. There have been articles in magazines about having toe-in. I am not sure what data they have/had to make such statements. Super happy it all worked out for you. Rock ON! :)
@@dagtheaviator well Dag, As an observation I did a pole at the club field and asked 5 of the most senior members about toe in vs toe out and non of them had any real input on the topic. As far as I can tell full scale pilots appear to have slightly more knowledge on this topic. And for the magazine article, we’ll it would be my guess that a magazine editor is not always going to be an expert on every topic and is probably just very happy to have anyone submit and well worded article. This article may or may or be correct or factual but if it well written then good enough. I’d guess editors are constantly hoping someone is willing to write a about a new and different topic instead of the same old same old!
If your taildragger should veer to the left and lean over on its right main wheel, it makes sense that if it's toed out it will pull the nose to the right and help straighten the plane out. It's pretty obvious that if the right main wheel is toed in, the veer to the left will get worse. Positive camber (where the top of the wheels are further apart than the bottom) will also help keep the plane going straight. As the plane leans the wheel further over, the wheel will pull the nose in the opposite direction of the veer. To visualize this, pretend you're riding a bicycle or motorcycle.. ;-) Also, how much rubber (and wingtip) is worn off while your plane is veering compared to when it goes straight ahead and quickly into the air.. ;-)
Forgive me Dag but what you're saying seems rather counter intuitive to me and I am wondering what it is I am not understanding here... I went back and rewatched your first Taming a Tail Dragger video just to make sure I've got the terms right at least... My intuition suggests toe in would have more of a stabilizing effect because as the plane yaws the inside wheel effectively straightens up and thus has less resistance whilst the outside wheel has more resistance and would effect a yaw in the opposite direction thus straightening up the aircraft .... so now I am wondering how toe out is the recommendation here ? So scratching my head to resolve this in my mind I am wondering if this is a bit like a gyro with too much gain that causes the tail to wag ...... ie. the toe in makes the plane swing back too far and the outside wheel once again resists and thus sets up an oscillation as a result ? Is the benefit of toe out predictable behaviour because once it starts going left for example the plane wants to go left more thus making it easier to compensate on the controls rather than ending up chasing the tail so to speak ? I've flown tail draggers all my RC life, it's what I taught myself to fly on from the get go and my very first take off was fine, things didn't go wrong until I flew the plane towards myself and then it spiraled in rather quickly but that's a another story about a hard lesson well learned !! :D I should add I've never flown off tarmac though, always grass ... but never the less I would like this to be a detail about tail draggers I have clear in my mind as I like designing models and have had a fair bit of success with them, a couple of dogs too but all good learning :) Anyhow, I would be interested on your thoughts on this, cheers.
The way it makes sense to me is this. When you have toe-out, when the planes turns right and the left wheel is aimed out, it does not cause the wheel to turn under the center of mass of the plane. Think of the gears at stilts. If the plane turns right, and the left wheel is on a stilt, and aimed out it does not want to dive under the plane. If the wheel was aimed in, the wheel (and Stilt) would want to dive under the plane causing it to tilt away from the turn. I tested this on my own plane and did not notice a huge difference with zero-toe, and toe-out. But, toe-in made my plane a bit of a handful. I tested this on my Emmaselle II. Hope this helps. But, keep in mind, if your plane flies great, I wouldn't mess with it. This is only for my pals who design their own planes and have ground handling problems. :)
@@dagtheaviator ahh. thanks, that does indeed help !! .. I hadn't considered that there is vertical lever moment at work, easy to forget when one is just considering the plan view !! :) These things would be worth another video to clarify what's going on here. It might be good to include what the intuitions I outlined are and more detail why they are wrong as you kind of only touched on it briefly in the other video. Thinking about it some more I wonder if there is a combination of wheels on stilts and the toe in over compensating like a gyro with too much gain and once you add it all up you get the oscillation effect you mentioned. Thanks again though, that definitely helped me improve my already "vast" knowledge !! haha :D
I came to this comment through the same journey starting with a simple top view; a view that ignores the roll degree of freedom as well as centripetal effects in a turn (and tire camber). And these things are so complex, it would seem, that it's easier to appeal to authority than get into the nitty gritty of *why* and dismantle the overly simplified top view. Anyway fascinating topic that deserves more. Google will quickly give anyone asking this question several "simple top view" answers with diagrams and send them to the field with toe in.
Took way too long for me to find your channel. Fantastic videos, incredibly informative. Thank you so much!
You're very welcome! Thanks! Rock ON!
Well back in the spring, I fell victim to the so called experts on RCGroups forum and set most of my taildraggers to have toe in.
These aircraft range from 40 size up to quarter scale. For several months my airplanes were weaving back and forth the width of the grass strip runway and often ended up in a ground loop. Let me tell you, it sure was effecting my psyche. I thought that I was loosing my skills.
Even had one guy at our club ridding my ass telling me I need more time on a sim! I’ve been flying since the early 1980s with several long breaks in between....
Anyways, after watching your two videos on taildraggers, I reset my airplanes to just very slightly toe out.
Man O man what a difference that made!!! My planes now run down the Centre of the runway and only need the very littlest of a tap on the Rudder to keep straight.
Thanks Dag for having these very informative videos! You info has redeemed me. LOL 😆
Thanks for the post!! I may use this info in a future video. There have been articles in magazines about having toe-in. I am not sure what data they have/had to make such statements. Super happy it all worked out for you. Rock ON! :)
@@dagtheaviator well Dag,
As an observation I did a pole at the club field and asked 5 of the most senior members about toe in vs toe out and non of them had any real input on the topic. As far as I can tell full scale pilots appear to have slightly more knowledge on this topic. And for the magazine article, we’ll it would be my guess that a magazine editor is not always going to be an expert on every topic and is probably just very happy to have anyone submit and well worded article. This article may or may or be correct or factual but if it well written then good enough. I’d guess editors are constantly hoping someone is willing to write a about a new and different topic instead of the same old same old!
@@RC-Flight Spot ON!! :)
If your taildragger should veer to the left and lean over on its right main wheel, it makes sense that if it's toed out it will pull the nose to the right and help straighten the plane out. It's pretty obvious that if the right main wheel is toed in, the veer to the left will get worse. Positive camber (where the top of the wheels are further apart than the bottom) will also help keep the plane going straight. As the plane leans the wheel further over, the wheel will pull the nose in the opposite direction of the veer. To visualize this, pretend you're riding a bicycle or motorcycle.. ;-)
Also, how much rubber (and wingtip) is worn off while your plane is veering compared to when it goes straight ahead and quickly into the air.. ;-)
You do help a lot so keep it coming we all like your help
Glad to help
I almost turned off the video cause I'm an ace crack pilot who can fly anything HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL
Your a legend in you own mind I heard! :) LOL, Rock ON my Friend!!
Forgive me Dag but what you're saying seems rather counter intuitive to me and I am wondering what it is I am not understanding here... I went back and rewatched your first Taming a Tail Dragger video just to make sure I've got the terms right at least... My intuition suggests toe in would have more of a stabilizing effect because as the plane yaws the inside wheel effectively straightens up and thus has less resistance whilst the outside wheel has more resistance and would effect a yaw in the opposite direction thus straightening up the aircraft ....
so now I am wondering how toe out is the recommendation here ?
So scratching my head to resolve this in my mind I am wondering if this is a bit like a gyro with too much gain that causes the tail to wag ...... ie. the toe in makes the plane swing back too far and the outside wheel once again resists and thus sets up an oscillation as a result ?
Is the benefit of toe out predictable behaviour because once it starts going left for example the plane wants to go left more thus making it easier to compensate on the controls rather than ending up chasing the tail so to speak ?
I've flown tail draggers all my RC life, it's what I taught myself to fly on from the get go and my very first take off was fine, things didn't go wrong until I flew the plane towards myself and then it spiraled in rather quickly but that's a another story about a hard lesson well learned !! :D
I should add I've never flown off tarmac though, always grass ... but never the less I would like this to be a detail about tail draggers I have clear in my mind as I like designing models and have had a fair bit of success with them, a couple of dogs too but all good learning :)
Anyhow, I would be interested on your thoughts on this, cheers.
The way it makes sense to me is this. When you have toe-out, when the planes turns right and the left wheel is aimed out, it does not cause the wheel to turn under the center of mass of the plane. Think of the gears at stilts. If the plane turns right, and the left wheel is on a stilt, and aimed out it does not want to dive under the plane. If the wheel was aimed in, the wheel (and Stilt) would want to dive under the plane causing it to tilt away from the turn. I tested this on my own plane and did not notice a huge difference with zero-toe, and toe-out. But, toe-in made my plane a bit of a handful. I tested this on my Emmaselle II. Hope this helps. But, keep in mind, if your plane flies great, I wouldn't mess with it. This is only for my pals who design their own planes and have ground handling problems. :)
@@dagtheaviator ahh. thanks, that does indeed help !! .. I hadn't considered that there is vertical lever moment at work, easy to forget when one is just considering the plan view !! :)
These things would be worth another video to clarify what's going on here. It might be good to include what the intuitions I outlined are and more detail why they are wrong as you kind of only touched on it briefly in the other video.
Thinking about it some more I wonder if there is a combination of wheels on stilts and the toe in over compensating like a gyro with too much gain and once you add it all up you get the oscillation effect you mentioned.
Thanks again though, that definitely helped me improve my already "vast" knowledge !! haha :D
I came to this comment through the same journey starting with a simple top view; a view that ignores the roll degree of freedom as well as centripetal effects in a turn (and tire camber). And these things are so complex, it would seem, that it's easier to appeal to authority than get into the nitty gritty of *why* and dismantle the overly simplified top view. Anyway fascinating topic that deserves more. Google will quickly give anyone asking this question several "simple top view" answers with diagrams and send them to the field with toe in.