My reflex is to say that there is never a good time to sugar-coat things. However, if I look back on my childhood, I think my parent's had a pretty decent approach. By the time I was about 6-8 years old, my parents were fairly direct about any subject.
On your query... Children at any age deserve honesty and respect just as much as adults do. Making up lies and/or creating delusions won't help them to learn how to properly grieve and deal with loss, and at worse would harm their ability to trust their parents.
Yes, in a situation like this, i think that minors should have a say into this. most of the people that say to keep furry wierd always say that as a defence and it's annoying.
I'm still not aware if my childhood pet died or got lost. I know by now they are gone, but for so long I secretly looked for them and waited for them to return. If they were hit by a car or something I would have rather known. I would have been sad and cried a lot, but knowing my family could and had lied to my face on occasion when I was a child means that question gets to forever live rent free in my head.
On sugarcoating things, honestly if the kid asks/wants to know I'd want to be frank but tell them in what seems an appropriate manner for them at their age.
I find it funny that people are complaining about SFW/NSFW spaces and children, yet not a single person is saying anything about child labor being increasingly legalized again in the US
Ngl I should have brought this point up for this video. I made a similar point in my furry wheel drama video but ya. People's priorities dictate what's good and bad rather than what's actually good and bad in the modern day
In a world with a bunch of easy made hi-tech infrastructure and over-production of goods/services, maybe one should ask why our existence is tied to an endless need to acquire a small pool of capital instead of focusing on living one's limited life
In my country we almost got forced to work as kids, when my parents got divorced one of them stopped working and so we got a standart amount of money meant for just being able to live/eat and stuff from the government. But the issue is when I wanted to work, the amount of money I earned would be taken away from the monthly budget we got, so I would be literally be working and not earning anything. And besides that we as kids generally wouldn't even earn anything even though there's a minimum loan cause it's getting bypassed frequently at pretty much every workplace. So many kids here are working all the way through their weekends and after school till 5 or 6. Most of them start at the age of 13.
Here in Brazil we have a single furcon which is Brasil FurFest, which is the largest furry convention in South America, if this is not the most sfw, it is certainly among the most sfw. You can't do anything that might embarrass someone, you can't wear anything that is or looks suggestive, this includes any fetish accessories or suggestive fursuits, you can't walk around most convention venues with airsoft, or with toy bladed weapons, no staging a fight, nor many things that could create a bad situation. Basically it's like a hangout, with parties at night and a bazaar inside a hotel.
As for the question: because a certain surgical procedure mentioned can't reasonably be reversed, I want to mention that whether for, against, or undecided, it can be a painful topic for men to think about. This is why the fetishization of cut or uncut makes men feel uncomfortable or undesirable at times. I think we should have more frank discussions about autonomy, guilt, and regret to acknowledge the societal trauma surrounding it, rather than making it all about preferences.
I've run conventions, and had to deal with people on both side of the NSFW argument. This is probably the most levelheaded take I've heard in 15 years. Furry should be a weird, wonderful, open place for people to explore who they are, and who they want to be. It should also be a place for people to feel safe. Sometimes these things collide, and you get people shouting to "Ban all the things!" But one person's self-expression isn't necessarily an attack on someone else's. People need to understand that at an event as large as MFF (or any con) not everyone is going to express themselves the same way. And sometimes, people will be uncomfortable.
Getting rid of nsfw stuff would do nothing but hurt cons, mostly from a financial standpoint. NSFW makes tons of money across every fandom. What they need to do is have the mature stuff in a separate section just like the adult section
very good discussion. I like a lot of the ideas here. in the case of pup hoods the discussion i heard at mff was always "imagine what a dad would have to say if their child asked about it." and that always felt like a weak argument. I'm glad you were able to put it in a much more concise and concrete idea.
@@BlockheatquavI've had people get angry at me for wearing a harness in a fursuit which they said that I was wearing sexual fetish gear. When it was actually for my safety as I'm a disabled person who has very bad coordination who needs someone to guide me. Then someone argued that they will take advantage over me. Which was incredibly beyond disturbing to me as those people are MY parents who are my handlers. Like WHY would you ever say such a horrid thing? And it's other people who take the assumption that it's for NSFW and shouldn't be worn around kids... I'm always wearing braces and stuff to help keep myself stable to even stand up and walk. Why should the harness that's to help prevent me from possible injury be anymore different than wearing braces for a disabled person? So yeah... I can definitely see why pup masks should be let allowed to wear them so long as it's not showing anything that a minor should never lay eyes on.
@@erebosthemogoreg oh sorry to hear that's happened to you. Personally I think that harnesses are fine as well because they also don't tend to show off ones genitalia
@@Blockheatquav Yeah, I just wish people weren't immediately judgemental or go right to thinking "That's fetish gear" rather than think about why are they wearing it? Could be for different reasons too and NOBODY is gonna know it unless it's blatantly obvious. And it's just... Terrible that people automatically assume things without knowing the story behind certain things.
Thought this was super informative, great video! On the topic of sugarcoating things like death I honestly think it’s fine to teach whenever the first occurrence of it happens after about 5? It’s a subject that will show up in life a lot and kids can understand those types of things. Understanding someone is gone and being able to grieve is likely healthier than waiting for them to come back and hoping they’re out there somewhere imo.
@@EthicalBiohazardI am someone who has trauma from when I was 4 years old when I killed a fish without knowing that it needed water to breathe and thought the fish was just cold. I was scolded by my family and got scared and confused why the fish wasn't there anymore and why everyone was mad and upset. But when I got a little older my uncle bought me a pet iguana then killed it in front of me as punishment which I will not describe what happened unless one wants to hear the story on Discord... I was 5 or 6... Maybe almost 7 And I clearly remember it to this day as a 25 year old. I have PTSD from that. So maybe surely 4 year olds might not understand death.
I don't see why death should be a secret at any age (it was never a mystery to me, at least) but sex on the other hand - I guess it depends on the culture. In cultures where sex is done without the concept of privacy, there will be no sugarcoating of sex. In American culture, at least, 6th grade was when I was taught about it via books and in school, so I guess that's a good time, just because that seemed to work alright for me. Guess that means my answer really was just based on the way my surrounding culture decided to do things rather than any carefully thought out reasoning on my part... O.O Oh, I see...
there are literally no cultures that sex is private. In fact, the United States probably has the most open culture about sex. Its weird af to think that innocent minors should be seeing shit like that
@@SpidaMezThe hell you on about!? America is one of the most conservative on the planet outside the Middle East! Have you seen the attitudes towards sex in most Asian countries? Or modern Europe? Yes there are aspects of American media that shows much but culturally? America is and has always been a Puritanical Christian Country at it's core.
@@SpidaMez - No, the US is open about discussing lifestyle choices, talking or joking about sex - but it is in many ways not open to sex as a normal everyday reality. You're talk of "innocence" reflects a sex-negative attitude, as it frames sexuality in terms of "guilt". Kids only grow up thinking of sex as something embarassing and weird that needs to be hidden away because they are taught it by adults who feel that way. But I'd argue that isn't healthy. For example, kids aren't old enough to drive, yet nobody is afraid that letting kids SEE cars or driving, because that obviously doesn't hurt them. Same goes for voting, employment, etc. If kids have no exposure to those concepts when they are kids, then they will be clueless once they are adults. Preventing harm is important, but "moral panic" tends to cause harm because it's based upon rote forcing of behaviors rather than making good decisions.
Being a furry doesn't automatically make someone in the fetish side of the fandom. If you are, great, but keep it in 18+ sections or in any other private area. There is no reason you need to be walking around in fetish gear at a con. I'd say a lot of the fandom welcomes the younger furs and they should be allowed to roam around a family friendly area in a convention and not worry about seeing anyone wearing fetish gear. Know the time and place
My video disagrees with your statement which is why I wrote the original response. My swimsuit and topless argument directly ask why we view that great as nsfw in the first place. Why is it not kids friendly if used as just fashion?
I think it’s the same as like condoms for instance, shure you can wear it as a wrist band, but that doesn’t mean it’s a safe for work item. I also don’t think that the topless thing is good either, there should be designated areas for that outside of the view of minors. I also don’t really like the idea that men and wemon should be held to the EXACT same standards. And let me explain. I think it’s proof enough that men and we men have obviously different bodies. Men have different inappropriate parts than women. Im not saying I ether that we shouldn’t disrespect that persons gender. Kids are young and impressionable, I think they should be taught these complicated things, in a light manner. Also these kinds of things can significantly harm a child’s mind, leaving them with long term mental damage. So I think that there is a limit to what should be shown around children at cons, if it makes all kids and parents uncomfortable, then it’s not about if someone wants to do it, it’s about is it harmful. So like the pup masks are I’d say fine, since they aren’t inherently sexual, or used for any sexual purposes other contact wise. That’s why a muralist would be bad, or a but plug. That’s my thoughts, feel free to ask me anything, or if you have any good debate points to bring up. Also I just kind of feel that skirt length and sexual devices are very different, and don’t parallel that well. But to your question of what is nsfw, it’s that. (Though quite honestly I don’t think a guy going shirtless in the middle of the office would be tolerated either.)
@@tamaruautumn5325 Honestly the most NSFW aspect about the condom is the lubricant. Otherwise having it dangle on your wrist is trashy fashion (like wearing plastic goercy bags for a tshirt), but it'd be fine to show off ya. Kids go to beaches and are fine so you're gonna have to explain the "outside of view" space better cause you're assuming we have the same beliefs. Similar to the mental damage, can you explain the process step by step? How can kids see movies about guns and be fine (except in the usa) but knowing what a butt plug is will destroy them? Also I'm pretty pro-equality and equity. Not sure how men getting excited about another's chest means said person being oggled needs to control themselves. Seems like the better solution is to just teach the dude to stop being weird Also not sure how you personally think pup masks are not inherently sexual but boobs are if both are seen by the majority as sexual currently. How do you square that circle.
Honestly, the answer is "whenever this little shit pops a question" about anything really. Ofc, as many stated before - in an age appropriate manner. Parents should be guides for children, and should double as fount of knowledge, which will sate their curiosity. And they should be adult enough to say "I don't know, let me get back to you later" or shit make it a learning experience for both them and their child. Ofc, this is very idealistic cuz there are multitudes of factors that can affect what and how a child learns about sth, like you said, for example biases that we've been raised with because sth is "societally mandated" or whatever damage that parents have that fucked them up, and how that damage will fuck up their child in a unique way, the environment a child grows up in, blah, blah, blah. Or you know, why not be a psychopath and troll your children. "Dad, what is that person wearing?" "Oh you see dear, they were a very bad, misbehaving person, and as a punishment for their bad behaviour they've been turned into a part dog person, and they are terribly facially malformed. And both as a way to hide how ugly they are now, and to tell everyone what a bad person they are they have to wear what is called a 'pup hood.' Now, I hope you'll behave because we wouldn't want to turn you into a part dog person and put that mask on you now, would we?" Or "Dad, why did they have to die?" "You see dear, we all have an invisible clock ticking down our time on this planet. All the processes that are taking place right now, inside your body, are fighting against a concept known as entropy, which in simplest terms means that everything strives for chaos, and we die when we reach peak chaos in our bodies. But there are also things outside of our bodies that can kill us at any moment, you, me, we, anyone, everyone can die just like that [(snaps fingers) is referencing Thanos cringe?] unlikely as it is. And we don't know what, if anything, happens after death. And despite what some people will tell you, we don't know if god, or gods, or entities so technologically advanced that we may as well see them as gods, exist. We don't know if it's just nothing, if we become something else on this planet if we die, or if our essence called 'soul' goes some places else. These latter two ideologies called 'religion' are just ways in which people for thousands of years made themselves feel better and/or found meaning in life, which the only meaning life has is the one that you'll ascribe to it, and/or made themselves feel righteous and motivated to oppress and kill others that disagree with them or the rules of their religion. You of course are welcome to join any of them if you want, but some of them will require you to do and not do things. Like fast, which means you can't eat certain foods for a certain period of time. And that is why I prefer not to believe in anything, because I like my chocolate and am not giving it up for some made up rule, and think that doing good things and helping others should be motivated with simple 'because that also makes me feel good,' and not because I'm terrified of eternal punishment, but that's topic for another day. Now, to answer 'why did they have to die?' it's simple because everyone dies, and everything ends. Right now there are countless people who died and no one knows their names and their story or that they even existed in the first place, which makes it so that they might as well have not. And that is why dad has created a very tight daily, two decades spanning schedule packed to the brim with different activities that will ensure that you'll create your own legacy and thus be remembered forever, and through that so will I. And would you look at that, I'm also giving you a tragic backstory of having a 'caring, but emotionally distant and strict father' at the same time, the sacrifices I make for you. Oh, look at the time, you're 5 minutes past your break, but I'll admit I played a part in that so this time you'll not be punished and will be able to eat supper, but chop chop, piano won't learn to play itself." (The child doesn't intercept with any follow up questions, in either of those examples because it's been thoroughly trained not to interrupt their parent lest they be punished.) Wow, so that was unhinged, but I had fun creating these scenarios, thank you.
to me its always been fairly simple. If it is done with a sexual intend, to cause sexual arousal in anyway or fulfill a sexual fetish. Then it should stay completely away from minors, and shouldnt be accidentally viewable by people who do not consent to viewing it. This goes for all things personally, including art and content online. i think the tricky part sometimes is knowing when or if something is done for the sake of sexual-..nes.. like for a random, dumb example, you could argue you just like the way a sex toy looks and youre not currently using it or are sexually aroused by it and youve cleaned it after using it, but does that mean you should carry it around and show it off in front of children? oh yeah i should mention this is sort of irrelevant for nsfw cons but dont those still take place in public spaces where other people can see? im not really sure how it works, ive never gone to a con
Most cons have rules and age verification. The problem is people draw the line of what the rule entails differently. People are tend to follow normie norms around the public area of the con
In regard to sugarcoating certain topics, I think honesty would be the best. As lying and keeping the truth hidden could do more harm than good. In regard to allowing NFSW/SFW at conventions, I believe a compromise should be made so that everyone, or most people, will be satisfied. In regard to when people should be educated on NSFW content, I think it depends on their level of mental maturity. As a minor myself, I wish we were treated with more respect and not assumed all of us are dumb and naive. People develop at varying rates; you don't just immediately become mature when you reach 18.
I've never been to a con, so I can't throw my opinion out on how they should and shouldn't be managed. But I do agree with compromising, maybe not everyone will be satisfied, but a good majority will be. I concur on the "you don't magically become mature at 18". I've seen so many young people who've been bashed for making "irresponsible decisions as an adult" when said "adult" is 18, 19, or in their early 20s. There's no magical fairy that blesses you with knowledge on how the world works when you become of age. Adults make mistakes, and I feel like we hold people who haven't even reached 21 yet to higher than normal expectations. I especially agree on the mental maturity too, people grow and progress at different rates. And that has an affect on how NSFW education is received and processed. And despite minors still not being "of age", there's a point where we get tired of being treated like we're made of glass. Just replying because I agree with you. Hope you have a great day!
Imagine comparing woman to fetishes. Nobody wants to know about what turns you on, so yeah, fetishes are NSFW and I don't wanna see it. Want NSFW on the con? Make it 18+ only
The swimsuit modest laws applied to men too. Laws that restrict people's rights based on old puritan/religious laws will tend to affect women more ya Also, if you're gonna restrict people, you need to be able to state the harm. Like actually write it out
I think nsfw should be kept between adults in adult settings. we can't keep crying about all the hate we get, when a large part of us continue to put nsfw content any place we feel like. nothing wrong with it, but as a community we need to be more mindful about what we do in public. my partner is not a furry, but he is ok with it, and understands it more, but only because I showed him more of the great parts about being a furry. the art, the loving and open community, the ways people find life long friends, the way we support each other. it makes me sad that after so long, we are still looked at as creeps. kids will always be around, and I would like feel like I can have my niece know more about her uncle's life, but I can't because some of us just don't care. let's do better.
I completely agree with you. It really sucks that you can go to a lot of regular family friendly events and these things arent as much of a problem there, but in furry fandom events they often are and you get called a hater or an antifur for even wanting a discussion about protecting minors. Also, getting defensive when a parent isnt comfortable about what is allowed at a family friendly event makes us look even more like creeps. I was actually SA'd by a relative as a kid and its a thing pedos actually do, they get defensive when its brought up, so getting defensive rather than having a discussion is really not a good look for the fandom (I am not saying the fandom wants to be predators, I am saying that getting defensive is the same shit predators do, so they really should just open up to having discussion and compromise)
yes. we really need to call each other out more when things go far. not to shame anyone, but like you just said, thinking of minors, and making EVERYONE feel safe is important. we have all grown up as furries, and i think it's time the community as whole should too. we should try to help or fellow furries to remember what we really stand for, and be more mindful, otherwise the hate for us will never change. I am sooo happy that i am not the only one who feels this way. @@TheBluePony3
@TheBluePony3 Furries discuss how to protect kids all the time without name calling. Twitter furries call people names but even when you talk to them privately they tend to be more nuanced about the situation. People don't always have the best communication skills but the idea that the fandom gets defensive about these topics is false which is why more and more people accept furries when they learn about the fandom. I'm sorry you had to experience that as a kid.
@@PureKoorI am sorry, I am new to the fandom and the sexual stuff in this fandom was a bit jarring to me compared to other fandoms (though it doesnt beat anime in that area). I am not trying to come off as mean at all, but I did one time try to ask questions about the adult side of the fandom out of curiosity, and maybe I just happened to talk to the wrong people at the wrong time but they were treating me like crap for asking questions, and DID get very defensive. It happened on a forum and in VRChat, so maybe it was just wrong people at the wrong time (VRC ppl DO tend to drink a lot). I appreciate you trying to be polite. I am sure a resolution can be made that benefits everyone, people just need to be willing to have the discussion
I think we should still keep NSFW in conventions we just need to have it in a secluded area and time. That’s way we can keep all of the 18+ away from minors.
I think around 12-13 is a good age to stop sugar coating, maybe 11 depending on the situation It's a good age to where they're gonna be asking more n more questions, perceiving more of the world, and will be faced with difficult and new things It's better to do it then than any later I think :0
I got exposed to some very fucked up things at ages 5-7 years old and has trauma, PTSD from it as a 25 year old now. Especially involving pets and punishment which was literally taking the life out of a pet cause I did something bad as simple as stealing candy from a small shop...
Children are as individualistic as the rest of humanity. And with this fact in mind, I think it completely depends on upon the child you're dealing with. When they start asking, that's when you tell them the truth with the caveat. You need to tell them the truth in the language of their present age. A 5-year-old just does not have the same cognitive ability to understand death in the same way a 15 year old can.
One important thing to also consider is that not every "weird"/marginalized person should have to be an activist/ambassador for their cause 100% of the time. "Safe spaces" are meant to be shelter from bigotry/prejudice that exists in wider society: if someone is attacking non-normative forms of self-expression (i.e. pup hoods), they are making that space unsafe for people who the rest of the world _isn't_ a safe space for. The burden shouldn't be constantly put on them to defend their right to just EXIST as their true selves. Other people who _aren't_ under attack in that moment need to stand up for them, and think critically about the difference between "weird" and "harmful".
This is true, however if you are doing a "weird" thing you gotta be an advocate as to why it's fine. People should be better about listening but many just aren't taught how to do that and we need to be prepared for
@@PureKoor I don't think it's reasonable to make "weird" people constantly defend their right to be themselves in a supposed "safe space", though. Answering well-intentioned questions is one thing, and we absolutely should do that! But when it's "PROVE to me that my prejudice towards you is wrong", doing that work is both exhausting and *UNSAFE* for the person defending themselves. Yes, it needs to be done, but that's why we need *allies* outside of the targeted group to speak up & challenge prejudice too. And also why we need "safe spaces" to be places where we DON'T have to talk people out of attacking us all the time.
It's not reasonable. Given my background, most of my life has been proving why prejudice is wrong and that's just been a norm. Allies help but a bigot isn't gonna go after an ally, they're just gonna go after the main weird person. People who are viewed as weird need to be prep'd for that situation, even as unfair as it is and even within all safe spaces. Safety is an illusion, one that should be upheld but ultimately is a lie we tell ourselves to feel better. Walls are a deterrent not a magical forcefield. Everyone's gotta learn how to talk at anytime anyplace
Just off the title alone, I’d say that this could easily be fixed by either having an nsfw area in every convention that is separate or just conventions that mention nsfw is allowed tbh..
I dont feel like death should be sugar coated at any age, instead just kept brief, I believe it does more harm to lie to the child about their pet being somewhere else alive instead of gone would just create more issues, the child constantly asking to visit and when the truth comes out i believe it would hurt more than telling them directly. ie ' Rover died and his body doesnt work anymore.That means his heart isn't beating and letting him run and play with us like he used to. we cant play with him anymore or pet him anymore but that doesnt mean we cant love him and he cant love us. we have all of these happy memories together and we will always have him with us through those" and focusing more on the emotional aspect for the child vs going in-depth on how they died and what will happen to the body. not necessarily until they are older but more so until they have grieved.
I was lied to a lot about what happened to my pets as a child... Even "discovered" them... And has Also had a pet killed in front of me as punishment for misbehaving which was stealing candy from a small shop... I was 5-7 years old at the time. And then they told me "They're somewhere else still alive." Yet YOU did that in front of me. (・_・;) And yes .. I have trauma, I have PTSD from this...
Nah pup hoods should be in adult spaces only honestly same with other stuff like hyper boobs/ass/crotch on fursuits not just for "protecting the children" but for ppl like me who find em offputting and uncomfortable because for as much as ppl say pup hoods aren't sexual they sure act that way when wearing them and even when they're not they're just very creepy. If it's an after dark party or some form of adult/private space then whatever but honestly in general kink gear should not be so casual in public at cons
Can you actually describe the harm. Like on a technical level what does the pup hood do that causes harm. Cause like I mentioned in the video, people were offput and uncomfortable with women showing the ankle. So your feelings are not something to be ignored, but also aren't an argument in it of itself
@@PureKoor For the same reason I wouldn't wanna see other kink gear out and about which pup hoods are. In adults spaces sure but seeing them out and about as casual as a regular fursuit/costume? no thanks No matter how ppl try to spin it it will always be kink gear to me and it's uncomfortable to see (on a more personal note I just find them creepy). To put it simply much like harnesses which are used for BDSM pup hoods are literally the same sort of gear they aren't technically sexual but they were made first for that and I don't think that should be a thing in non adult only spaces or in private. (much like being in underwear isn't inherently sexual but it's not appropriate in a lot of scenarios)
@@ZackFair78 again, can you describe the harm on a technical level? Like list out the process of harm not just how you feel. People find blood uncomfortable and creepy but without it your body does not function. A pup hood is not vital as blood but folks who use pup hoods seem to have benefits to their lives including improving social situations, being happier, and having a creative outlet. So why does your discomfort outweigh the good a pup hood does?
as a non-furry for whom this year's MFF was my first experience with the con and otherwise first REAL furry experience in my life, I feel like... yeah, it... people DID get pretty weird at this year's SkyBridgeCon, literally as I was LEAVING the Con Center on the 3rd night, going with some buddies to try a weird sushi place we'd seen on the gluten-free app, there were two, I assume murrsuiters? I hadn't been wearing my glasses, as I'd left them in the Hyatt, but I was PRETTY SURE one suiter had a... frontal attachment, the other was rubbing, and the other's head piece literally had a foam ball-gag in? like, I dunno, it was 9 PM, so fair enough, but Jeez man...
@@PureKoor while your comment gave me an absolute stroke to read, I do agree. No duh they should. Assumedly that was just them "flirting" and they were gonna go shortly, but Jesus, man...
In my opinion a good time to not sugar coat subjects would be 7-9. I only think this because the person is starting to form opinions on everything, if you as a parent sugar coat it they won’t learn and be able to deal with decision making. (Children shouldn’t be treated like adults but should be given the same respect)
As a minor I think it would be great to add either a time system or just make split areas like one side is more safer to younger people or people who don't like the Nsfw side, and with the timing it could be a time system of when Nsfw can be around and when It could not. But also Cons could have an age limit as well as in say a more Nsfw con can have people 18+ and a con for more younger or people uncomfortable with Nsfw have there own con
Time systems are already a thing as well as area slits. Some cons do just do 18+. The question here is not solutions for segregation, it's asking why our society hides critical information for staying safe and having peaceful cohabitation
I think the age we should stop sugar coating things to kids really depends on the child but I’d have to say around 10 at the latest, because anything past that could be harmful for a child’s development in my opinion. For example I myself have always been aware of the concept of death even thought I was never really taught about it, thankfully my parents were always open and ready to talk about these topics with me and my sibling to help us process how we felt about these topics. This is why I think the adults in a child’s life should be able to decide what to shield their child for a certain amount of time but should also remain open and ready to talk about heavy topics in a child friendly way. Especially because of the other reason I believe children shouldn’t be shielded from heavy topics too much, which is the consequences of doing so. Like I said earlier I was always aware of heavier topics that most parents didn’t want to introduce their children to until they absolutely had to. This wasn’t a problem for me until I started to get older. Due to the fact most parents waited to talk to their kids about heavier or uncomfortable topics, most of my fellow peers in early school years would either learn these harsh truths in completely horrible or humiliating ways or they would find out the information and use it against other students in horrible ways. For example when some kids in my elementary school grade class learned about sex from the fifty shades of grey movie and were “teaching” other students how to do what they saw in the movie (you can imagine how horrible this situation was) The teachers mortified went to the parents but when the teachers confronted the parents and told them what their students were doing the parents got angry at the staff and told them they couldn’t tell their kids why what they were doing to the other students was wrong because they didn’t want their kid to learn about sex. Even though they had allowed them to watch the movie already💀. In summary I’m not anyone should introduce children to things like sex, kids definitely shouldn’t be heavily sheltered and or censored from things that could be detrimental for their emotional and mental growth in the future. Especially when it can do more harm then good.
From experience I know there's little reasoning within the fandom since everyone's opinion is already deeply set in stone, but what's wrong with SFW and NSFW conventions? I understand people want their safe spaces but sometimes the means of expression are not for every audience and undermines the safe space of someone else. Within the fandom not everyone aligns with pup hoods, other "neutralised" fetish gear, and nsfw suits being appropriate. The big difference with the swimsuit argument is that an entire country slowly shifted it's opinion to finding swimsuits acceptable attire. Furries already have a tendancy to diverge from the norm, but it's also a small part of the population meaning theres fairly little leverage to decide whether what you think minors should be subjected to. In the end it's the parents of the minor that should decide what's best for them, and since the sentiment towards fetish gear is still NSFW in the eyes of many normies its a thing you'll have to learn to deal with. Hence 18+ NSFW parts of the conventions can help people to truly feel comfortable amongst people who are also waaay more inclined to give you that space and show acceptance. The fact that there needs to be a seperation isn't that bad, there will always be social norms and the line we draw is about in the middle what everyone thinks. I'm already really super thrilled to see acceptance towards furries grow so rapidly. I remember when I actively started participating in the fandom about a decade ago, normies were significantly more vicious towards us. Now people don't really look funny at you anymore for whipping out a laptop with furry stickers or having a furry as your phone background. Ofcourse every now and then there's an insult but hey, everyone sometimes has to take a mean comment on the chin from a douchebag about anything anyways, it's a non furry related issue. Especially on the internet. Let's enjoy these liberties for a while rather than suddenly pushing more heavy stuff (that's not even related to most people in the fandom anyways) onto the rest of the world and tarnishing our reputation... I mean, despite owning a custom hood myself, I also get really uncomfortable when I see people with a hood out in the open for people to see who didn't ask for it. Just meet up with like-minded people that are into the same stuff, there's your "safespace". I do know that the majority of people couldn't care less what you do between 4 walls, alone, with a partner or with other people. But a convention is too big and diverse to expect everyone to be like-minded, there should be boundaries. If you just want to wear these things, it's absolutely fine with everyone as long as you go show it off to like-minded people. I know there's a lot of artistry and beautiful designs that may be NFSW and I understand the appeal to show it off to people who are also comfortable seeing that. But I do find it really weird and off-putting to see full grown adults get upset about the fact they can't show off their NSFW gear to minors. You simply can't expect people to be okay with that I'm a bit fearful this behaviour will both result in the reputation for furries to go downhill again, but you also risk people who now have a positive or neutral stance towards things like hoods and harnesses change their minds as they want to prevent people to get exposed to it without it being called for. Its gonna be similar where now I've seen aot of LGBT+ acquaintances slowly distance themselves from pride because of similar behaviour, trying to distance themselves from the image people get from non-modestly clothed people in parades and stuff (putting it lightly). I wouldn't be surprised, if this continues that something similar will happen. I'm personally not affected by this, I'm in a bit of a final chapter when it comes to the fandom. Done a fair share of fursuiting, conventions, role playing, made friends and stuff but I lost my connection a bit. We don't have to fight every fight, and a lot of things are done in the name of a big group of silent people that don't even agree.
Most people are willing to change their mind if you talk with people. The fandom collectively has biases but individual change making said biases change over time. And ya certain separations are good, but /why/ there's a separation really needs to be thought about more. When people were exposed to furries enough, they had to make a choice. Said original choice was to ridicule but when normies see furries as just people with a hobby that (for the most part) adheres to closely related societal norms, most realize there's no harm thus don't care. Many anti-furries's actions are just thinly veiled attempts to be racist/anti-lgbt/etc against a group that has the excuse of "weird animal people" as cover. A cover which can bring people back to hating furries if framed correctly similar to what happens in other subjects along racial, lgbt+, etc lines. Like, should PoC sit at the back of the bus because it makes some white people feel uncomfortable? Hopefully the answer is no, but that "no" answer took a lot of effort to get by the people who were being forced to the back. If there are boundaries, there needs to be justifications. And like-mindedness in most cases is a bad point. Adults are wearing fashion that they like and there happens to be kids there which is different from "forcing minors to see it". You should do what's right, not what's easy. When it comes to slavery this is an easy ask /nowadays/ but like I mentioned in the video, the USA still uses slave labour so we're better than pre-civil war times. However we still accept USA slavery as part of our production process and that was done to appease the same folk who distance themselves from non-modest lgbt/furry folk. If people don't agree they should talk it out, our culture of being so meek and sanitized as to not create social conflict is why everyone talks past each other. If you don't want conflict but want to be vocal, then screaming into the void to gain /only/ those who are like minded will be the end result. I hope you reconnect with the fandom one day, there's many amazing people here and with many more joining there's a lot to learn and explore! To ensure we keep said fandom we do need to commit to some battles that ensure everyone is better off!
@@PureKoor You are typing a lot of words, yet not really conveying an actual message that gives more details than your video. To somewhat summarize your message, you say people now accept furries because it's a fairly normal thing, but because a small part of furries do stupid stuff some normies are out to try hard to frame furries for being an appropriate target to bully. Then you make a completely unrelated comparison to struggles of a (still) truly marginalized group, whilst trying to make another comparison with said marginalized group with people trying to wear NSFW attire being "just fashion" and minors have to learn to deal with it. Also going over whether wearing hoods and harnesses in pubic, you try to tie the struggles slavery to it, specifically exclaiming the perspective of what people do in 1 out of like 200 countries in the world, generalizing the entire community with the sentiment of furries to only are in contact with. Yadayadayada, uplifting furry stuff, I wouldn't say the average furry is more interesting than just... the rest of the population besides liking humanoid animals, and in order to keep a fandom in existence that likes roleplaying as a humanoid animal, we have to protect unrelated individuals. The seperation is already very obvious intrinsically though. For centuries people have been anthropomorphizing animals and it comes as a very natural thing. People have always been fascinated by these depictions, have been relating to animal traits, writing literature with animals with human traits or vice versa etc. Later throughout history better depictions and animations came along, and now people are creating their own characters, roleplaying like them and dressing up like them. It's been a fairly natural progression and has no sexual roots. The harnesses and hoods people nowadays wear are from a taboo NSFW origin. There's probably a way bigger market share of people using this kind of stuff to spice up their sex lives (probably a group way larger than people expect) compared to people that really need these items to truly express themselves naturally. Hence a fursuit in the wild is usually associated with a cool cuddly mascot, whilst a hood in the wild is considered inappropriate by the big majority of the non-furry population. Simply minimizing this matter and framing it to be "wearing fashion that they like and there happens to be kids" is not gonna win people over. Besides this, not everyone hates furries anyways. It's a small group of douchebags on the internet, 80% of the people don't even know of the existence 15% doesn't have an opinion, 5% did pick a side of whose the silent majority is for us and not against us. It's as bad as you make it, I think probably more people are bullied for the way they look than the fact they're a furry. If we are going to make somewhat unrelated extreme comparisons, then I'll chip in with the following: I'm from a somewhat liberal country, in primary school I've seen depictions of real genitals in sex ed, and in the very first years of secondary school, we had to do stuff like putting condoms onto dildos and nuva cups into fleshlights for a grade (again during sex ed). As a minor I was well enough educated by the schooling system about genitals, but that doesn't mean I would've been comfortable by, for instance, seeing nudists in public. There's for many people a big difference between educating and practicing. The fact it exists, does not mean everyone has to do it in public in front of an audience. For nudists, in my country we have nudist beaches and campings as "safe spaces" for people who feel most comfortable with themselves being naked. They get to be with like-minded individuals. As a citizen of my country, I fully support these things, whilst as an individual, I prefer to distance myself from visiting such locations. I respect them, they get to be whoever they want to be with like-minded people. Obviously I want them to have equal rights, not be marginalized, bullied, given any penalties etc. for their fascinations, but that does not mean I am comfortable seeing random people be naked in public spaces. I tolerate and accept, despite a social barrier being in place. argument
I'll keep it short for you then, your summary of me is incorrect. Real world politics effect hobbies. Given the first furry con was an offshoot of a startrek con gathering which included LGBT+, kink, and more within its members, comparisons to marginalized groups is more than reasonable. Also given the device you're writing on uses materials often retrieved via slave/child labour, it's def not 1/200 countries so that comparisons to slavery and its localized quirks works well. A group being formed and people's historical interest are different even if there's overlap. The USA's modern fandom roots back to that startrek gathering. Look up photos and zines from the first furry con please. My video uses the subject of toplessness to ask why there's a taboo in the first place? Everyone already agrees that our current taboos/mores/folkways/laws exist. Again, I bring up half the population inability to be topless cause society views their bodies as inherently sexual to point out that your discomfort is weird. The question I'm asking you to ask yourself is, why does knowing/seeing a person/object that could be sexual in other context bother you? Are there reasons for your discomfort beyond mere learned disgust? *edit: the first con name is ConFurence 0. Only search if you're above 18
@@PureKoor It's any summary, you weren't clear in the conclusion you're trying to pull so I pulled a random one that also lines up to whatever you wrote despite it not being the message you try to convey. I actually do have two acquaintances that went to ConFurence in the very very early days, and I also do know there were age restrictions because of the kinks. These people also did not advocate for it being fine for minors to look at NSFW stuff like you're trying to advocate for. It was a closed group of people with mutual interest... a relatively small safe space for people that were into these things. Besides this, I do not really understand why you now suddenly feel the urge to warn people about looking at pictures of this convention on the internet. The people in these old photos should be free to express themselves in any way shape or form right? It's just institutionalized that what they display is "a reason for discomfort beyond mere learned disgust". Obviously the furry fandom had to begin as an offshoot from a different fandom if you bother to read up a bit into the zeitgeist of the 80s. Internet was barely a thing back then, only really having archaic message boards to find likeminded people. With even owning a computer or a modem out of the question for many at the time, people had to find each other though other gatherings. The theme, Startrek, in and by itself probably was just another mutual interest. The more deeply rooted fascination of people for anthropomorphized animals most likely caused furries to clog together at these conventions to the point they started to meet up and later start conventions like ConFurence. You are also comparing to LGBT+ and people of colour, identifiers people are born with and can not change whatsoever. Wearing hoods, harnesses, sexy NSFW leather deer costumes etc. is a choice. It is inherently a bad comparison. An MtF in the middle of transition can't just simply change her gender real quick to conform to an intolerant society, neither can someone with a darker skin tone suddenly blend in with white people like an octopus can. It inherently makes no sense to ask these people to avoid showing themselves because of the way the are, hence in a modern society people collectively try hard to push to do something about this. A sexualized hood, or for someone to go around walking topless has sexual connotations, and are a choice for that reason. You can take a hood off, and you can put a shirt on to prevent people feeling uncomfortable, there are dedicated areas where people are completely free to go to in order to dress what they want with other people. (in my country, also for men this is considered exhibitionism and isn't allowed). "My video uses the subject of toplessness to ask why there's a taboo in the first place? Everyone already agrees that our current taboos/mores/folkways/laws exist. The question I'm asking you to ask yourself is, why does knowing/seeing a person/object that could be sexual in other context bother you?" This is an irrelevant question, instead, the question you should be asking yourself is, /where/ do you think the line should be drawn where something isn't appropriate anymore? This line is a product of things like history culture and society of course, a very large and very gray area. Not only is this different from country to country, even within countries or even subcultures there are deviations. It is completely arbitrary and can be drawn anywhere. In the Victorian era, for example, it was already scandalously kinky to show your ankles (something that's over the top for most westerners), whilst in the Greek era, it was casual and appropriate for grown men to have sex with young boys (something completely not-done for most westerners). It may also be learned behaviour to think a kinky hood represents yourself better. At the other hand, it is very difficult to change people to let go of their learned behaviours. I think normalizing hoods and harnesses is inconsiderate towards the majority of people that are into this stuff simply for the fact the whole appeal is the fact it's a kink. The entire fun of these items is spanking, clawing and dominating each other in harnesses, hoods, latex and leather between 4 walls, whilst in the outside world you go about being some businessman, cashier, nurse, police, doctor, secretary, accountant or whatever. It would completely take away the magic for a big group of people to go normalize these taboos and kinks. They slowly get normalized, let's be patient and let it happen naturally. It is ignorant to fight for something in the name of a group of people where a substantial part doesn't even agree anyways. This is part of the reason why I lost my connection to the fandom, I just want to RP and fursuit a bit, we fought for our fandom to be put into positive daylight, now people are acting like freedom fighters for people that aren't even mainly associated with the fandom. Fight for them, yes, but not in-the-name-of. I have a hard time with your slavery comment. I know most of the country during the suppression of my ancestors were completely unaware of all of this stuff happening simply because they were trying to get by themselves. That's why we don't hold them accountable. The small group of people that did commit the crime are gone as well. It took for the French to invade the country and to do a massive reform in order to give us the same rights and only a century after industrialization people started to travel to our region freely to find out what actually happened in order for the whole fiasco to be written out of the history books. You probably are also using devices made by slavery to comment in this comment section, if you actually genuinely cared and oppose it, then atleast attempt to be our example and educate us actively how to avoid this rather than using it as a cheap argument and not attempting to conform to it yourself. I hate to try to justify myself, I can't live without a computer, but I already ditched my smartphone years ago, eat local food and live on second hand stuff to prevent contributing to all this nonsense but alas. So my opinion is, do whatever you want to do, how wild and out there the hobbies are you want to partake in... just do it with the people that are also interested into it. If they go beyond the social norms of the people in the country the convention is held at, announce it actively, do some after dark +18 part of the fandom and don't let minors attend. And maybe most importantly, if you are gonna be edgy, do it in the name of yourself, not me or others in a group you happen to be a part of. We all live in our bubbles with people around us that are more inclined to think like us so it is easy to forget not everyone shares your opinion.
id say maybe around 10-14 y/o should kids be introduced to how "nsfw" things work and how to deal with and avoid certain situations that could harm them if they hadnt known. primarily because thats the age kids start getting puberty and i think that kids should understand whats happening to their bodies and why. i was told about how babies were made around that time. it was gross but it didnt effect me in the long run since its all natural stuff. i was also told about the sexual/homocidal things people could do to me if i dont be careful which i think actually really helped me avoid certain situations i would have gotten into if i didnt know how to deal with and im grateful for that. its scary to know but its much better being scared by the knowledge than being traumatized by the experience or worse.
Imo i think that there should be some regulations, but not an out right ban. pup masks and harnesses are ok imo because theyre not showing off the actual genitals of a person. Also i feel like that the only way is to make a comprimise like small regulations that dont tread on baning. but also places that can allow this stuff to happen,( like an 18+ space). mine dose have a bit of biased as alot of people who've argued with me have called me some prety shitty stuff. Great vid BTW
I think I read the wildest take on this on Twitter/X. Someone said that wearing a pup hood is violating for them because they didn't consent to it. Like, what? To me it feels as if someone were to say "Well I don't like people talking in public in small groups because I didn't give them permission to." It's wild... I think things are only NSFW or not ok if we attribute them that meaning. Collars, chokers, revealing clothing, all that used to be more reserved for the private and sexual encounters and now they seem to be more acceptable in public. Times change and that's ok.
There's a version of consent that forgets the autonomy of self concept for both parties. Rather they become in favor of one's own experience only. This is probably due to how social media curates worlds around the user rather than with the collective user base Basically hyper individualized to the point where they become an unknowing dictator. Imo, we're probably gonna get more segregationist thought over time due to these systems which is sad :c
@@PureKoor I admittedly have never personally been to a furry convention nor do I fully understand some of the words used in this video so I might just be missing the context
I guess it boils down to compassion and respect, a lot of furries look to use for spaces as a place to get away from their trauma, which can be sexual content too. While I’m alright with things like harnesses and briefs and what whatnot on a fursuit I’d elect to leave the room if i saw another strap on like i did once at anthrocon (it was 4 pm not exactly a night time crowd yet) I guess it boils down to ensuring the safety and comfort of attendees, a costume is a costume. we see cartoon animals in swimsuits and underwear under innocuous circumstances but the literal kink gear has got to be behind closed doors, e want everyone to feel welcomed
An abuser and sexual content are not the same. So why is there a comparison being made? People were (and still are) uncomfortable with women in their spaces as they weren't seen as equal by men plus some abusers are women. So if you boiled it down, your argument is "if certain people feel uncomfortable, then certain people must leave" which isn't inherently bad but is inherently not a space for everyone to keep welcomed. That's the point of hiding people in their rooms or making laws that restrict people expression like I mentioned in the video. Do you have a better example of harm than "acknowledging sex exists is bad"
@@PureKoorwhile i recognize NSFW is ok. It is not in child friendly places at 4PM when those children are likely to be there at that time. The time of day and the location were important in my statement. It has nothing to do with interests or identity it has everything to do with not exposing fetishes to underage children and sensitive persons (the reason we cant walk naked in public) Im ok with revealing clothing, as long as the genitals aren’t exposed. Same goes for fursuits, i do not think it is appropriate to wear a dildo around children and the general public for the same reason.
@@PureKooralso likening not being able to flash people publicly to sexism/bigotry is a WILD take to be having here just saying. Im not oppressing you in any way by asking you not to show me your genitals. There are appropriate spaces to do so (even in public feeling areas for those that want to sate that fetish interest) Thats like saying judging predators for grooming kids is bigotry because they cant help what they’re attracted to. Its still illegal!! And its not some wishy washy illegal that makes white power stay on top or the patriarchy run like an oiled machine, its just respect of our fellow man and woman thats it. Its caring that they are going to shake and cry or be irreparably mentally scarred in some cases traumatized (genuinely not some bigot claiming they’re traumatized by black people in their grocery stores kinds of ‘triggered’ since you felt like taking it to a Politically correct place the first time i have to elaborate that i do not mean such flimsy reactionary bs every time i make a point about trauma now.)
@@PureKoorand by exposing your genitals youre making the people uncomfortable with that leave instead! Youre excluding them instead! 18+ con spaces exist, use them for that purpose instead
@@xXIronPeachesXx You didn't actually give a reason. You're assuming an answer then not explaining why. That logic is what my video is directly addressing. Can you actually give a direct reason why NSFW at 4PM in a child friendly place is bad? There's definitely reasons but can /you/ give the direct reasons why this is bad. Cause you mentioned safety and comfort originally even though there are places that are safe and comfortable with pretty public displays of NSFW (again, some of which is mentioned in the video)
I have an interesting opinion about the whole "NSFW in public" thing. People will scream that a thing is "not safe around kids" while pointing at the thing and calling attention to it. Those kids, 95% of the time, will not even recognize that the thing is harmful. They won't do so with big boobie horse until people tell them to. The people who sugar coat often are the ones that create the harmful situations. Your example of telling a child their dog went upstate to live somewhere else can lead to a harmful situation where the child believes they might see the dog again. It is best to just be completely honest. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. They will know something is off. They will figure it all out. Simply put, let kids learn and make their own decisions.
@MrRAGE-md5rj This is clearly bait but I'll bite. Unless a person openly declares they're either of these things, or someone else who knows points it out, the kids still would not know. Now yes, it's bad for kids to be around sex offenders but strippers? Especially strippers who aren't currently stripping? Again, the kids wouldn't even know until you point and yell that there's a stripper in the room. You're creating a problem where none exist. That person who is currently fully clothed is doing nothing wrong.
@@arvurebantra7639 That too. Being a stripped isn't some sort of a "you are now branded" thing. A stripper... simply doesn't do stripping around kids? Ig the baiter meant stippers who are doing stripping near kids or smth... or maybe they think working as a stripper is as bad as being a child m0l3ster. Never know with such types
@@Alex-cq1zr Perhaps, or they're one of those "furry is a fetish" people who think we're all sexual deviants of some kind and this person is probably likely to also assume we're zoophiles or something. Regardless, as I said, most kids are probably not going to notice something is "bad" until told it's bad.
If you’re old enough to use the internet, find the furry fandom and go far enough that you actually know what convention you want to attend, you should be well aware by that point the nature of which some people enjoy self-expression and have fun at these cons. If you go back 20 years and look at old con footage, you’ll see fursuiters dressed up in latex, carrying whips and flogs, and plenty of “busty” suits. It’s nothing new, it’s been an important facet of furry con-space for decades now, and while it’s changed tremendously through the modernization of the internet and social media platforms - you should really know what you’re getting into at this point. Theres going to be inflatables, busty and fat fursuits, pup-hoods and jockstraps. If you find this a breach of consent, or are worried about minors seeing stuff thats 10x lighter than anything they’ve already seen on the internet anyways, then there are plenty of SFW cons and furmeets that have rules put in place against kink-gear. What really matters is specifically defining where the SFW/NSFW line is, what the con is willing to allow, and how that concerns the minor question. In all honesty, with the shit kids these days have to put up with, terrible stuff I dont even want to mention… a fursuit with some large bazongas should be the least of anyone’s worry. Do I think minors should be allowed at furry conventions in general? No, not really. If you’re a parent, I think youll get a lot more fulfillment out of taking your kid to your state or city’s local anime/cosplay convention, there’s plenty of fun activities, internet stuff, and usually they’re way more catered towards the teen-young adult demographic. Will that ever stop young furries from attending conventions that are advertised as “all-ages”? No, of course not. I dont know every kid, or every parent, Idk what you’re comfortable with, and if you feel safe to let your kid experience a furry con, that’s great. If you look a little deeper, almost all the people complaining about “fetish gear” on Twitter are also adults- that’s not to discredit any uncomfortable experiences minors might be having, but it’s like… You’re the adult paying to be here and supporting this convention that knows and allows what you are uncomfortable with, if Im not mistaken MFF has always had a bit of a reputation for being a raunchier con-space, so why even attend? Why not volunteer on staff and try to make a difference? Why not formally complain through available contact directly to the convention organizers? At the end of the day, it always comes back to who’s complaint on furry Twitter gets the most attention, and we end up talking about it for a couple weeks with no real conclusion, rinse and repeat. Gotta love it xD hopefully this time cons actually address where they stand on the NSFW policy, you either are or you arent, graying the line between the two for the sake of creating an environment for “everyone” is just going to make more and more con-goers leave feeling unsatisfied.
@@flopjul3022 right, but they can still be a furry and experience a convention space without having to specifically go to a furry con. Idk if youve ever been to an anime convention, but there’s usually a handful of furries and furmeets happening at or around them, so they can be an easy “first step” for young furries who are just getting into conventions and stuff
I can't fairly answer at what point sugar coating is no longer good because I had someone very close to me die when I was very young. Pretty hard to sweep the harsh truths under the rug after that, but generally speaking, I think there's a slow ramp of acknowledging it and explaining it and then confronting it that should ideally take place. The problem being that we really don't get to choose when we confront certain things, it just kinda happens. I suppose I kinda think lying about it is never really a good idea, but the level of explanation involved may be altered based on how much they've already been through. Age is ironically a poor indicator for maturity. It's just the only metric we really have without actually knowing someone.
I find sugarcoating useful early on in life, but 8-10 being a cut off for more direct usually helps. Whole age does matter, kids being exposed to some things definitely needs to stay later in life if possible. In terms of the wearing stuff, while it makes me uncomfortable, I don’t mind it as long as they aren’t showing the bits. While some definitely border that part or showing waaaaay to much. It’s definitely a more complicated matter that is a thing of what would you want to show children and others in general. I personally think it’s important to remember that not everyone wants to see that stuff and while you can dress like it, it’s good to limit how far you go into it because to far and it can be borderline public indecency which is a whole other can of worms.
I would still ask where the harm is given the video is opening that can of worms a bit. Public indecency not long ago was people of different races being in a relationship. Nowadays we would criticize that belief but within my life time people could be vocal in their anti-interracial couples belief and have no consequences befall them. Why do people not want to see that stuff and is their disgust correctly place?
it’s not so much about safety as it is about people feeling comfortable. completely ignoring the presence of minors, there are plenty of adults who don’t necessarily want to be made aware and reminded of what some attendees of a con do when they return to their rooms. that’s not to say that people should be ashamed of what they do in privacy. but there are people - many people - who believe that things that deal in matters of intimacy should be kept… well… intimate. not just left in the open for everyone in the surrounding area to be forced to think about i agree, people wearing pup hoods doesn’t harm anyone. but it may make some uncomfortable. and, just as there is no harm done in wearing pup hoods, there’s also no harm in NOT wearing pup hoods, for the sake of other attendees’ comfort at the end of the day, cons, during most hours, are intended to be a safe, comfortable, enjoyable space for everyone who wishes to attend. also, the people wearing the gear aren’t losing any sense of comfortability in having to not wear the masks in common areas. why does it matter if people are uncomfortable with it because of traditionalist ideals that stem from previous oppressions? it’s not like the people who feel these things are actively wishing to imprison women who show a bit of lower thigh at a beach people shouldn’t be forced to dissect every urge, idea, feeling, and emotion they feel towards their environment, and scrutinize themselves for potentially having ideas of modesty that stem from oppressions committed a century ago by past generations. If someone is made uncomfortable by something you are doing or wearing, and you don’t lose anything by respecting a their feelings, and acting in a way that makes them more comfortable, then why should you continue to persist in doing the thing that’s making them uncomfortable? you lose nothing by respecting their boundaries, and one of the most important parts of being a human who interacts with other humans is to do your best to make sure no one is needlessly suffering or having a bad time, thanks to something that could be easily remedied also not sure why you made that out-of-the-blue shot at curcumcision. it’s not mutilation, it seldom has adverse affects, so long as the procedure isn’t botched. it tends to make cleanliness around that region easier to maintain anyways. it’s also done for several religious and cultural reasons. and it ain’t hurting anyone. not sure why you seem to have something do harshly against it to the point that you refer to it as mutilation.
People use to feel uncomfortable when women wore shorts or when PoC existed around them. Being uncomfortable is not a good argument here because that discomfort is restricting people's ability to do actions while also shaming said actions. People do clearly find friends, gain confidence, and can look neat wearing those masks. Losing those masks can be a real determent to people's social connections. At a place where people are wearing thousands dollars worth of carpet oven, a silly mask should be fine. Your argument doesn't actually contradict what I said and in fact sounds silly to someone like me knowing that a fursuit was seen as a sexual object when I entered the fandom similar to the puphood. The respect your assuming here is one of compliance not of mutual understanding which is true respect. Pushing a boundary is not inherently wrong (again, women wearing shorts or PoC existing in white spaces was also boundary pushing in which people argued was bad because it broke civil norms) I mentioned circumcision because of it's relevancy to normalized harm we don't see as harm. The history of why the USA does it so much is quite dark and is very much harming a lot of people needlessly. If you're being good faith and would actually like to learn more, watch this video by knowing better. It's long because it's a lot ruclips.net/video/0ens0WjAyOc/видео.html
@@PureKoor cool! thanks edit: sorry for the short response, i just didn’t have much to say. thanks for takin the time to respond to me. i value your point of view. you seem like an intelligent guy. i might check out the video you linked. love your vids too :D
about 6 years seens good enought to learn about death. Whenever the kid ask is great too. I allways noticed kids movies from japan usually deal a lot more with death then anything american that avoids it like death itself. Long was the time when Disney actually killed its villains, or even had em. I think its the easyer way to check diferent culture diferent NSFW rules is comparing these.
I think a really huge point that needs to be made is the fact that consent doesnt only apply to the act of sexual intercourse, but also consent to viewing or witnessing sexual activity. Its why its a crime to expose yourself in public, even if you arent touching anyone, people didnt give you their consent to seeing that stuff. And a lot of people do feel uncomfortable when they see fetish stuff without their consent. Going into an 18+ adults only area is giving consent to seeing these adult things if its specified that this adult place allows it. People who are going into a family friendly place are not all consenting to seeing fetish stuff. It does make adults uncomfortable too. And for some reason, way too many people get treated like shit for being uncomfortable, as if consent doesnt matter when touching isnt involved. Theres a reason HR protects people from more than just being touched without permission when you're at work. And it seems like only the ace community in the fandom can really agree with me on this stuff I also want to add that just because something is or isnt law, doesnt mean people are okay with it. For example, the age of consent is 16 in my state but my grown ass man coworker still got fired for flirting with a 16 year old and nobody at work respects him anymore, and we all find him disgusting. Before laws protecting women from r*pe existed, a lot of people were not okay with it, but people were often naive back then and didnt assume they needed to make shit into a law because they assumed it wouldnt be a problem. I heard TONS of stories from old men who personally beat the shit out of creeps when they were young. Another example is how beastiality laws are fairly recent due to the fact that most ppl just didnt assume it needed to be made into a law, they just assumed people wouldnt do it. Usually the townspeople would get together and personally off the person who r*ped a woman, it was never considered SFW in America at least
Hello, I'm part of the ace community and I disagree! I mention the question at the end because the knowledge of something happening and the discomfort from it doesn't inherently mean you get to hide it away, because ultimately that's more harmful in the end for reasons I'll explain in a future video! If you can directly tell me what the harms for a puphood then list them out cause my department got HR'd once for being vocal about poor working conditions (aka, HR is there to protect the company's image not the workers) Also for sure laws and morals are separate systems that only sometimes overlap. Breaking age of consent is physically harmful for younger person who tend to be less experience or physically weaker aka there's harm. People weren't naive back in the day about abuse, the head of household gained power by forcing their will through physical and psychological trauma. Given people made laws against silly things faster than a woman's autonomy, calling people naive is disregarding the amount of cruelty people were fine with so long as it didn't directly affect them. Expecting everyone to get personal revenge isn't possible nor good lol. The anti diddling of dogs laws are not recently everywhere, because people did know it happened, so laws have been around for longer than recent. If you were in a town that wasn't ok with it ya, but that was not every town and again, silly laws were made before enshrining rights like not abusing people. I mentioned the 13th amendment's loophole but foundationally it's still an AMENDMENT because the original constitution was a compromise for slave owners which everyone knew about.
Personally, while you are not showing your pivates or doing anything indecent, I dont care what you are doing or wearing or anything, even when I was a minor I already thought like that. But IDK that's just me and my "unsupervised child with free internet access" mindset talking (and I mention this because I might have been desensitised to NSFW things, even the most weird ones)
@@PureKoor Well Pup-hoods is straight up S&M puppy-play fetish gear, ain't no arguing about it, people can have that in private areas and areas where only Furries are attending conventions but not out in the open outside or in the convention area + I've seen those egregiously embarrassing videos of those fetishists on all 4's barking in public and at pride events, like, this is breaking the limit. Harnesses I tolerate to a extent and are far less egregious but I'd *prefer* that be kept to private areas (and I have a fursuiter friend that wears a harness).
@@PureKoor (Odd, I checked my comment history and it was there so I guess I'll repost) Well Pup-hoods is straight up S&M puppy-play fetish gear, ain't no arguing about it, people can have that in private areas and areas where only Furries are attending conventions but not out in the open outside or in the convention area + I've seen those egregiously embarrassing videos of those fetishists on all 4's barking in public and at pride events, like, this is breaking the limit. Harnesses I tolerate to a extent and are far less egregious but I'd prefer that be kept to private areas (and I have a fursuiter friend that wears a harness).
I wouldn't be a Playboy at a bus stop or in a park. Best to keep kinks to private settings. Better to keep things palatable for all audiences. Regarding top less, this is not a problem in Brazil. There are well-defined places for practice, including nudism, and there have never been any problems, except for the prudish people insisting on being where they feel offended. And there are still those who want to practice topless in inappropriate places. Overall, it's a matter of common sense and social decorum that we all know how to apply when we want.
I honestly relate. As an asexual furry, I genuinely feel uncomfortable when I see nsfw content. And I also feel like children should definitely not be in the question when talking about nsfw themes until they are mature enough to know.
1) I am part of the ace spectrum too and am not uncomfortable. People see asexual as being sex repulsed due to many going "I'm ace and don't like nsfw" so if you mention that during this specfic discussion, you're identity will be weaponized into an excuse, not really an exploration into how to fix the issue. 2) I'm really unsure if you've watched the video or not given the topic is asking "why is something nsfw". Let me know if you've watched it
if something is specifically used for sexual purposes it should not be allowed in public. women being shirtless isnt nsfw because breasts are specifically designed to feed babies but they have been wrongly sexualized. fetish gear and other stuff is specifically designed for sexual purposes. that should always be separate from children. have an 18+ section or 18+ con away from kids if you wanna bring things that are inherently sexual. its the same argument with "should kink be allowed at pride". if its an all ages event, no.
@@PureKoor its inherently sexual if its used and designed specifically for sexual things. and in the moment there may not be direct harm but its just the principle of keeping sexual things away from kids. you have the option to just not be kinky around children and the fact that its even up for debate is shocking. a child may not know what a strap is or be harmed by one but im not gonna wave it around for kids to see because of the fact that its sexual in nature and kids dont need to see it.
The whole point of the video is asking why things are seen as sexual and why sexuality is bad to acknowledge to exist. The question at the end will relate to a future video where I directly show why you're a silly billy
I'm not sure how this ended up on my fyp, but I have to say I like how you ask questions that require critical thinking. Because the debate on SFW/NSFW isn't as easily answered as "why is the sky blue", everyone's thoughts and opinions vary on where SFW/NSFW should and should not be present. Even classifying what is SFW/NSFW varies too, while I believe most of us can agree NSFW is anything deemed "scandalous" or "skimpy", that also brings up the whole swimsuit and shorts debate. How swimsuits too revealing and shorts not long enough were often /also/ deemed "scandalous" or "skimpy" in the past - and even now. It's really fascinating to think about. And on the question you asked at the end, children deserve honesty. Once children start asking more mature questions, they should receive a honest, and a clear, concise, answer. Not one that covers up the truth. Sugarcoating and lying - even lying by omission - can harm and damage any trust a child has in you as a parent or a trusted adult. I wish my parents didn't sugarcoat everything when I was a kid, including loss and grief (which I now handle poorly and is something I am working on). Looking back when I was ten/eleven, I could've handled "the talk". They told me (and my sibling) nothing about "growing up" when I asked, only relying on what the school told me and tossing me one of the books that was really dumbed down. Everything I know about things classified as adult and mature themes was through peers and things I came across on the internet. I never worked up an courage to ask adults anything (especially in my teenage years) because I didn't want to hear gentle words, I wanted a straight answer that people seemed to think was "too grown up" (which /really/ came across as "too un-ladylike") for me. They felt that they were in the right for controlling what information I was and wasn't given. They were my "filter" when I was under their roof. And it got to the point where I never felt close enough to them to ask anymore. Anyways, sorry for rambling and if got a bit too personal for anyone's comfort. That's just a light overview of how I see things as of currently. I'm curious about everyone else's opinion and response, so, off to the comments I go. This was an interesting introduction to your channel, definitely subbing.
I'll bite. I admit I've been VERY on the side of "fetish gear regardless of it's current use is never okay in public spaces" You mention explaining the uses or purposes of these things, because yes, with my current understanding: Pup hoods really do make me uncomfortable when I see them. I often wonder, considering they are about as pricey as a fursuit head and to me look 1000 times worse than even an early maker's fursuit head, I often wondered the appeal to wearing them at all especially in public. So, I'd just like to understand why they're desirable in general, and why they'd be considered sfw, because again, to me, puphoods, fursuits with bulging crotches or nipples, fursuits wearing nothing but undies instead of regular clothes, and fursuits wearing fetish harnesses/gear are not safe for public spaces. Please, my head is spinning.
OK first... Sorry for my weird english. Im not native and a bit rusty. Why are they desireable: People love to rollplay, they love to get out of their grim life and akt like a silly guy in a fursuit or a Dog. Hiding your face whit a mask that fits the thing you are RPing as is an essencial part of it. Its really more about the immersion than the vanity. The NSFW Parts: Yes. I agree. It also can be used as a fetish. I agree They sometimes do show of nipples and they sometimes do show of bulges. I can assure you tho. It isnt allways about the fetish. There are Pupplay meetups just to akt like a silly dog whit no lewds in sight and all they do is to assume the position of a dog. I know. Its sounds weird, but they are having fun and i really cant blame them for wanting to escape their gray and boring lifes just for a few hours. Also just noticed that its sfw to walk around whitout a top and a tight swimslip, but as soon as you wair a pup mask it gets nsfw. Kinda ironic. Its funny.
Ya I can explain a bit more. To start, puphoods are $16 on amazon while fursuit heads are a minium $50 in materials alone if you make it yourself. Hoods can be much MUCH more expensive but it is very cheap to get into for the point of the hood is multifaceted. One of the wholesome reasons is that by hiding your identity, you can be more honest and silly. Men in society are taught to be "emotionless" and "strong", so by symbolizing a removal of that obligation, they can have an easier time communicating to others. This can also go into them being less clothed, removing societal shames and being comfortable accepting oneself fully. This for sure leads to naughty times but many just want to feel comfortable with themselves/their bodies around others who too are comfortable with themselves/vocally empathic. In the USA the human body is so scrutinized, one of the worse outcomes being women viewed ONLY as objects of desire, but we all feel that shame to different degrees. That's why saying "hey this thing is fetish gear is a sin and you should feel shame showing this in public cause your gross morals will harm society" isn't a great side to be on. The human body shouldn't be viewed as inherently nsfw when all of us are stuck inside bodies 24/7 and are NOT 24/7 naughty. The idea that people are comfortable acknowledging they get laid is also weird when you think about it for a bit. Like a normal human activity is seen as gross and bad? (Unironically this is due to some really harmful historical movements, including history like USA slavery, which we keep alive today). And our societal roles making it hard to connect with others is why subcultures pop up. So people feel safe just existing as themselves just want friends to be with. To give another perspective, a lot of people in business suits have destroyed countries, hired children into meat factories, have advocated for PoC to be at the back of the bus, yet business suits are not only safe for the public but encouraged as high class. Objectively those in a tux have done more harm then a few bad actors wearing a harness. So why is one, again, related to high/middle class aspirations and one is harmful just by acknowledging its existence. It's really not the clothing that's nsfw, it's not even the actions that's nsfw, it's our views on what we deem to be acceptable in a society build by those no longer with us/are really old. The people who forced us into a civil war to free people telling us through oral tradition that we're bad for liking a puphood is really silly. Those dude had whips to harm enslaved children/mothers/fathers while the BDSM person is giving pleasure to a consenting adult. I can keep going with how our views of what's sfw and what's nsfw are really warped but ultimately you gotta ask yourself the WHYs here. Why is viewing a body harmful? Why is a puphood harmful? etc. Is it actually harm or is it just learned disgust? There's a high chance it's learned disgust which people tend to not want to deal with because that implies their world view has harmed people or those they trusted were wrong I suggest watching USA history from www.youtube.com/@KnowingBetter It helps show were a lot of our negative traditions in detail!
Considering I make a living off of drawing specific art and how desensitized to nsfw I've become, I did find it odd that seeing fetish gear irl would turn my head, and I think your later statements ring true, it's somethin I think I ended up "learning" somewhere down the line. It'll be hard to shake off this concept that they should be "Ashamed" when I don't exactly know the "Why's" for either side of the argument. Though I'll be the first to come out and say I am the farthest thing from the puritanical mindset, or that I'd clutch my pearls and cry out "What about the children!!" when I'm all for the liberation of our bodies and that sexy stuff should be about as normalized as graphic violence is on tv. Both aren't exactly something you'd want your kids watching until they're older and yet-- One is seen as totally okay while the other makes everyone go nuts. I'll give that link a look. Thank you for responding, and so quickly too.@@PureKoor
I frankly feel the same way. Also it's one thing to know this is a fetish gear that some furries have but pup gear in of itself is not furry. And they don't appear unique or cute or sexy to me. It reminds me of really old fur suits from the 80s where someone's eyes peer through the eye holes through the fur suit head. I also have a problem with moral relativism as it seems like an attempt to gaslight and confuse or manipulate or guilt trip others into not having standards when really they are allowed to not like something. It's what they do with those negative emotions that matters. Even if it's a matter worth reporting due to inappropriate behavior they should not take that matter into their own hands to harass others for what they do not like. If I say I like hotdogs and someone else says they don't like hotdogs I'm not gonna go on a activist rant and tell them oh your conditioned by society to not like hot dogs or your miss informed about hot dogs and never had a good hot dog. My response actually would be like.. ok. That's cool man. No problem. The things people don't like carry just as much weight as the things they do like. People will be free to change their own mind based on their own cognitive liberty. I'm not gonna cram a bunch of information down their throat about it. Also what happened to children being children and doing innocent things? When I was a kid I wasn't exposed to all this and even now that I am as an adult I still turned out fine. Kids don't need to be overstimulated by all this visual stuff and information including all the stuff they get exposed to online that they can't do anything with anyway. But in the end. I'd just rather not have minors at a con at all. Also side note some people are just too hellbent on trying to change other people minds on something they don't like. I don't exist to make people like furries or fetish gear. Everyone has their valid grievances.
In regards to the death question: I think that "the farm upstate" isn't a necessary thing at all, there are ways to talk to children about something as serious as death without needing a magic lie. OF COURSE, a conversation about death with a child is going to look very different than one with a teenager or adult, but you can still directly confront the concept without having to lie to the child, it's just going to be slower and with a different approach and framework.
I've rewatched this like twice since it went over my head the first time but I think i get your point. Your point is that before enforcing laws which may potentially harm self-expression in the fandom, we should make sure that its a law that actually fixes problems. When we're dealing with the pup-hood example, the general public believes that children should not be exposed to pup-hoods due to its sexual context. However, you believe that there isn't a problem with pup-hoods because its sexual context doesn't exist for children. Is that correct? Also, as for the question at the end of the video, I think an appropriate time to stop sugar-coating to children is when they hit puberty, as that's when I feel like their childhood innocence can't be protected anymore and they're considered mature enough to handle real-life situations. As someone who has never been exposed to walks of life other than conservative Christianity, I really love your content, it's very insightful.😅
Ya, although I do think it's ok to acknowledge the sexual context because 1) people who understand what's going on can be more aware of ways to protect themselves and 2) hiding away a topic doesn't solve the underlying problems, it just pushes the problem out of sight then harms people needlessly. Kids only know a pup-hood is sexual if another tells them it's usage. Given we tell kids about war in kid appropriate ways and they're fine, this can be done for puphoods too while again, actually protecting the children and still allowing adults to have free expression. Cause "innocence" is just forced ignorance we deem as "normal" but "normal" is not inherently just/good I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
I was understanding kids now see nsfw at primary school on phones etc . I have worn harnesses at our local Furry con and so have others, in fact it’s in the rules you are allowed to, also pup muzzles etc. That is at the largest Furry con in Australia. Saying that, you do something wrong or against the rules you are thrown out immediately, it is also 18+ only in the sense you are over 18, not in a sexual way .Maybe have a Furry convention where NSFW is banned totally, also have a convention where NSFW is ok and the different Furries to go to the one they like or even both .
With regards to the sugarcoating, I personally think that it should only go up to 12 at the latest. With regards to animals, pets, or people/relatives dying. It's something that can be difficult to understand, and difficult to process, which is also why it is important how exactly you stop sugarcoating. I, as a ~17.6 year old minor, Don't have the experience to say how is best, but I know that people can be very sensitive, and that a lot of things need to be addressed very carefully. (This will likely need to be done sooner if a pet/friend/relative dies, if the child is old enough to have memories of them) Take anything I say with a spoon full of salt, but I think that just encouraging questions and answering them honestly is probably one of the best ways to handle things. The caveat being, making sure the child actually understands what is being told to them. Like, no matter how much you explain it, a 5 year old is probably not going to understand what death is. ...And yeah, some questions may need to be pushed back a bit, like the topic of reproduction. It's not at all my place to say, but (hypothetically) if I ever had a kid(s) I wouldn't want to explain how reproduction works before like.. well, puberty, I guess. At that point, there's gonna have to be a lot of care and carefulness being put into guiding a kid through that, and they're going to have questions. I would prefer if I where the one they asked the questions to. Any trusted source is ok, really, the main thing that I would care about at the end of the day is making sure that they would be able to tell when something was and wasn't a good idea, and that they have someone they can trust to talk to about their problems. Side note that isn't really important; I think keeping kids ignorant of any of the "adult" topics after the age of 16 is completely absurd. It's much better that they know what's going on and that they are able to make informed decisions, as opposed to the alternative. But again, I'm only 17, hardly out of puberty myself, and my brain works completely differently from everyone else (evidenced by my life and confirmed by an ASD diagnosis). It's not my place to talk, but I'm giving my current thoughts on the matter. Things are just complicated. Nearly every problem is nuanced, and has a million decisions. There is no "right" decision, only good ones, bad ones, and useless ones. (+-0 pos/neg) On a (not really but kindof) completely different note, Excellent video! ...I don't really know what else to say, I am not very good at giving in depth compliments. Just a good video overall, I guess is all I can say.
I think that pup hoods and furries in general are pretty separate and this topic kinda just brings out the issue of not having enough spaces segregating the two. I can agree its harmless but if someone wishes to go to a furry convention, an inherently different hobby than pup, they should be given the choice to choose between a con with versus without them, and have those spaces stay separate.
Many pups are furries cause of the whole anthro interest... and latex is def within the furry realms. So unsure why we're gonna advocate for segregation here.
Pup hoods and bondage/kink gear are for the bedroom and no where else. I do not find this expectation to be prudish or oppressive in any way at all. It’s simple public decency and common sense. Not all restrictions upon the self are bad. As for the comparison to when is it okay to be topless, gas stations figured this out years ago. “No shirt, no shoes, no service.”
Not sure what Common Sense by Thomas Paine has to do with puphoods but the real question is: Why. You're saying what /should/ be but not /why/ it should be. Why does a shirt or shoes determine service?
@@PureKoor Some common ground is required to have that discussion I feel, so to see if we have some on this subject I’ll ask an additional question in turn: should folks be permitted to just walk around completely naked in public spaces?
@@TheNightWatcher1385 depends on the public space. Most times you don’t want people to be completely naked the same way you don’t want people to shake hands as a greeting. It’s easier for diseases to be passed along without the protection of clothing. In certain spaces such as folks who regularly wash their hands, shaking hands is overall fine. Outdoor places like beaches or mountains tend to be fine for public nudity due to space. I think you should have arguments to restrict nudity not default to people must wear the snow day 5 layer coat special
@@PureKoor It’s not about sanitation, it’s about decency. If we do not both possess that innate sense then I have doubts that we can have a productive conversation on this issue. But I shall attempt to do so in good faith. Public nudity tends to not be tolerated in public spaces as nudity is heavily associated with intimacy and vulnerability, often of a sexual nature. That level of vulnerability is considered by most to be something reserved for one’s intimate partner, not for the masses. Plus, being nude in public spaces forces others to witness such a display, so it can be argued that issues surrounding consent are also at play in such a situation. You are correct in that different spaces tend to have different levels of what is considered decent or not. For example, pools, beaches, locker rooms, private property, remote locations, emergency situations, sacred spaces, bedrooms, etc. and that’s another reason why public displays of sexuality in a hotel’s con space are a violation in mine and so many other’s eyes, because the display does not fit the rules of the space. It crosses a line and forces others to be uncomfortable who are made to witness it. Sexuality is one of the most powerful aspects of human nature and is something that evokes strong innate emotions in most people. Sex in principle is also an inherently dangerous activity when it is allowed to control one’s actions as it has the potential to tremendously influence a person’s inner emotions, has the potential to create new life, and has the potential to spread disease. This is why for much of human history it has been seen as something to be regulated and reserved for its proper place and time and has been considered irresponsible to just let it roam, so to speak. Where this line is does shift over time, but every culture agrees that the line does exist somewhere.
I think you'd find this video to be interesting as well as having explanation of where our current line was made (and why it's not great) ruclips.net/video/0ens0WjAyOc/видео.html
Cons need to be upfront about what attendees might see. Further Confusion allows minors but it wasn't made abundantly clear that the kids would see people flaunting fetish gear and bare skin, and behaving "playfully." So either make this clear so folks know what to expect and can decide to attend or not, OR have space and/or time slots that separate minors and those into NSFW hobbies.
@@PureKoor you reply to my comment was rude and dismissive. I didn't MISS the discussion. I just disagree with some points within it. Your sly, one-sided presentation doesn't fool me.
If Mufasa can properly teach little Simba about the circle of life, we can do it too. The truth about anything is always the right thing to do, but there is also a propper way of delivering the message / answer to their quiestions acording to their age. Is sort of like always telling the truth, but you can leave out some facts or aspects about it depending on their age / level of understanding of the world. I would recomend to see the movie Captain Fantastic as an example that illustrates some angles of this disscussion. (where I stand on this, I could write a few pages about it haha) This reminds me of the phrase I read somewhere "A naked body is NOT sexual. Sex is also natural. People can´t seemed to handle life"
Given the move's "circle of life" was about bloodline hierarchies made by the nation who were still arguing about racial segregation based on inherent traits. Wasn't a great lesson to teach, even if the movie is fun But ya, thanks for sharing your thoughts
@@PureKoor sorry...what? ...I dunno about that, Im from southamerica. Didnt get any of that when I saw the movie. I was only thinking about the part when Mufasa tells him that when they die their bodies feed the grass, and the antilope eats grass. (Soft but honest way of talking about death with your son) ...nothing more than that. XD
Ah, ya that's fair. I tend to see the circle of life argument elsewhere and assumed incorrectly about its relation to this topic haha. But ya the movie is about blood kings needing to rule. Else the wrong king will destroy the kingdom
Hmmm.... it's hard to pick an age. It's more about their education and how they were brought up. Chances are by like 2nd grade they've probably already been taught about the concept of death, if not applied that learning to their own life that they and all they know will one day die. It's a hard answer because even some adults have trouble coping with this concept, so they tell themselves stories that aren't really true in any measurable sense but help them feel better (which isn't nothing) about the love they had left to give to that person but now never will. At the very least, I don't think not explaining the concept of death is "sparing their innocence" because I don't think knowing about death necessarily ruins it. I think it could send the lesson early on that life is temporary and we should love each other as much as we can while we have each other, but it's also possible you could create a little nihilist, just depends where they are in their development. Personally, I think the reason we don't explain it is less for "won't somebody please think of the children" and moreso the fact that death makes US uncomfortable. I don't know, I think they should at least know about the concept of doing things for the sake of others rather than just yourself and have internalized that concept before they learn about death to avoid a little bit of that nihilism. BUT to stay within the bounds of the question...... I'd say 6 or 7? Great video Koor. I got my own thoughts about where the harm comes from in "kink in public" but I also got a few things to sort through on that front! Thanks for getting the ball rolling!
I personally think you shouldn't necessarily lie to children I just think you shouldn't purposely bring things up, what I mean by this is no do not bring things up to kids but if a kid ever found out about something or just thought of something and was like "hey mum and dad I came across/thought this what does this mean can you explain" is when you should start explaining things to them. Children all "mature" in different ways and at different paces so I personally think it's whenever the child want's to know and learn (though I do think at a certain age if a kid hasn't come to you about anything you should purposely come and talk to them about whatever that is like at 14-15) (forgive me if this is a bit messy or strange haha I'm tired writing this I might edit it some other time like in the morning)
A good question is “why have kids at a con in the first place?” We have so few places for adults and adults only anymore. Especially on the internet. Kids now have the ability and parents neglectful enough to allow them access into these spaces. To answer the question about when we teach the kiddos about death? I’d say at the age of 10. Old enough not to be a baby and young enough to still have a healthy amount of childhood afterwards. Same with sex, teach the kid at 10 the bare basics and come back when they’re 16 for the more complicated stuff. That’s how it was done with me and I’m… fine.
Kids have time to explore a subject and given that's the years where they have space to learn their hobbies, kids should have the ability to go to cons just with supervision which is what cons do currently. Adults have more spaces than adults given adults have the money to actually participate in whatever activity they want (if they have the money but that's a whole other subject)
To the final question: I dunno, I don't like lying to children. I'm going to be gentler about *how* I phrase it than I would with a child, because understanding concepts like death (among many other things) can take a while, but if a kid asks me point-blank, I'm going to be as real with them as I can without being needlessly hurtful in the same way I would with a teenager or an adult. To put my cards on the table, I take the concept of youth liberation fairly seriously and think that children deserve the same respect that everyone else does, but I also recognise that how a child sees things and what their more limited experiences and developing brains allow them to understand is going to be different from the way an adult will, but it's also going to vary on an individual level because nobody is truly the same.
I don't find that death in its self should really be hidden at all. Younger kids (0-7) just don't really understand death as a concept. When they get older they figure out, it's a way of life, and then chances are they'll just move on. Other than that, the other NSFW subjects somewhat depend on the age, however I don't think kids should be getting to 18 (or whatever age of consent would be in other countries) and just finding out about sex, I think anything before 12 or 13 is too young (for them to learn about the FULL thing), however with the internet who knows when kids will find out about that kind of stuff
Hey man, that's fine, that is also kind of a different point that I didn't talk about, kids learn differently and are able to understand things at different ages than other kids @@timrosswood4259
I'm a strong supporter of banning NSFW/kink wear at cons, and i hate how defensive people in this fandom get over it. Had experiences like that at this year's Eurofurence, people wearing latex suits, pup gear, nothing but shorts and a harness etc. approached me, and i told them to leave me alone, that they make me very uncomfortable, and i got immediately called a snowflake, a puriteen, and other things. Seeing a fullsuiter wear a harness is okay, that's still part of thr fantasy part of the fandom, but seeing full on humans wear kink stuff in public and easily accessible places is just so gross. That stuff should only be allowed behind locked doors, don't care what you do or wear therr, just don't do it in public. Room parties, the Dealer's Den, or panels which specifically allow that kind of stuff, that would all be ok. What i really wish for is that the Furdances and rave panels at night also start to van that stuff, cause nothing mixes worse than kink furs, alcohol, and a bunch of other furs in yhe samd place. Really ruins the dance/rave experience if there's oversexualized kink stuff to be spotted everywhere on the dancefloor.
Yes, given the video makes the swimsuit modesty police, topless laws, and interracial marriage arguments. If by approached you mean they just came to say hi, I think the name calling is bad but so is the discomfort. If they were hitting on you then the name calling is super bad for it goes against consent rules which is the harm here. The rest of your statement though is just ignoring the arguments I gave in the video for example: Given fursuits and harnesses can still be used for the bedroom times just like a human, why is the human gross and not the fursuit? Especially since a decade ago normies saw fursuits as fetish gear and thought it was gross and vibe ruining as what you're directly describing now. *edit: Like are you just giving an opinion here or are you discussing something from the video?
@@PureKoor I'm just giving an opinion based off of own bad-ish experiences. If I was arguing with something from the video I would have mention or quoted it. And with what you said considering the approaching me during the con, both happened, people full in fetish gear coming up to say hi and strike up conversation, but also approach in a flirty way especially during the furdances. The combination of allowing kinks plus alcohol is just a really bad one and kind of turns a lot of furs who just want to party and dance/vibe together or with others away, and it becomes a kink fest real quick. Just really a shame and annoying that nothing ever gets done about that, especially when paying so much money just to attend a con
@@VeroMaxis People are working towards making the con a better experience. Crowd control is a hard job but conops (generally) can help cause you can go talk to them. Sorry you experienced the flirting stuff. Those striking up a nice convo are fine though and the mere discomfort of gearing being present is what I was addressing in the video so the way you phrased your statement made it seem like you didn't watch said video. Kink fest is fine so long as there isn't harm, exposure in it of itself isn't harmful. If you have points against the arguments I made in the video let me know!
Children have their whole lives to be adults, post 18, and if all of the controversy disappears if the kids are removed from the equation, the answer is pretty obvious - remove the kids from the conventions. Boohoo, they have to wait 2 or 3 years before they can show up. Some of us have been waiting our whole lives to be free in our space.
The controversy wouldn't disappear because many adults find things like puphoods to be objectionable in adult spaces. So the question needs to be focused around why people feel disgust towards these subjects and if it's actually to reduce harm or just personal discomfort that shouldn't affect another's freedom
@@PureKoor a fair enough point, though I think, right now, a lot of the hate and discourse is coming from within (as I'm sure you are painfully aware), and most of it is currently hinging on the "protect the kids" narrative, where we are losing the excellent points in your video. These are the same valid points that get brought up defending the public image of the queer community, though I think it all gets lost on us while we fight about what the right approach is, between hosting a "family friendly" conference over providing *the* space for us adults to be us. Great video, of course! Your content is amazing, as always!
IMO "sugarcoating" is usually done to make things easier for the explainer than the person asking the question. Could be because they are embarrassed, and/or don't have a good explanation, or other reasons. This is 100% the case around sexuality where often adults are the ones who are scared and confused, while the children are open and curious. Rather than useful answers, it yields a cycle of social conditioning which treats sexuality as weird and embarrassing rather than normal. Taboo prevents education. OTOH I have learned to be careful to learn who I am talking to, and try to give then answers that they will be able to understand. Trying to be the most accurate or comprehensive isn't always the best choice, it's better to meet people where they are at. Which is true at any age! There is no magic number where you know that their experience or maturity will be enough, it takes communication and sensitivity.
My parents never lied about my pets dying. Granted ny family is Christian so thete was a lot of talk of the pet going to heaven. Which may or may not be true. I wouldn't tell my child that their pet was sent away in lieu of telling them that their pet died.
Okay... So you are saying better educating people is the way to go. I can get behind that. Heck, I'm all here for educating about rope and bondage gear even. It doesn't mean however that people should be casually wearing that stuff in public spaces, that gear is for activities that are purposefully provocative and behind closed doors. If my child isn't old enough to know about the "birds and the bees" then I definitely don't want them seeing latex suits.
Keeping kids ignorant about sex is how predators "educate" them into being groomed. Kids live in the world, not a bubble. They're not stupid, just inexperienced. So teach them about sex to 1) protect them from the bad people and 2) to not make them the excuse when other people use their autonomy to wear harmless things like clothing that cover's one whole body with shiny material which is WAY MORE COVERAGE then if you wear shorts and a t-shirt. Also just say sex, why does it need to be the "bird and the bees". That's silly.
@@PureKoor Because I see BDSM Gear worn at Pride parades for example which is not a place to express your fetishes you commit to in Bed but a fight for rights and acceptance for the LGBTQ Community. Those people are like the Zoophiles in the Furry fandom. Ruining the image of the whole community.
@@protogen_1414You're all good. I was responding to another comment about the boosting thing. RUclips just doesn't put an @ when I respond in the creator thingy xD
I was really sheltered. Homeschooled, lived in a conservative country. Because of this when I was allowed free access online I was almost groomed into a relationship with older people. I had no context for grooming, dating, or relationship and the only sexual education I had was "Pp goes in and then baby" essentially. I wish I knew when I was 10, when i got my first period what was happening to me. Or when later i had a continuous period for almost two years that it was mt PCOS and not god cursing me for m*st*rb*ting. I know better now but it was really terrible. Jump forward to now. Now after I came out to my brother as trans he told me not to come out to his kids so they "don't get confused". My nephew is 8, my neice is 5 and younger nephew is 1. I came out to my brother 3 years ago. Maybe longer than that. I have no idea how long i should wait to come out. How long is he going to keep them in the dark? I think the 8y/o is really clever and would understand enough for me to come out. But obviously if he knows he'll tell his other siblings. I worry I'll have to wait 15 years until i can tell them. But by then I'll be filly transitioned and would have put it together. I think we should not lie to children like we do. They're people like us. I think explaining basic concepts when they're 10 is probably a safe bet. But its hard for me to judge because i don't really remember anything before the age of 10. Sorry this is so rambling.
There's a lot of young furries and families do desire to go to cons so that can be done for some cons, it's definitely not a viable option for all cons. Also there's a desire for cons to move to 21+ so even the idea of who an adult should be at the con is coming into question haha
Very late to the party but I would not lie to my child (not that I plan on getting one) about death. I would have to find a way to explain it that is understandable for a child and won't traumatise them, but it was something I was never lied to about growing up even though I've had to see it a lot in my family and I'm grateful for it.
Not teaching minors about mature activities, expression, and identity from trusted adults is one of the largest contributers to the difficulty of convicting and identifying cases of grooming. I am probably in a minority here but I feel that furry cons that allow non-sexual expressions of kink, and still allow children to be present, provide a great venue to teach kids and create networks of openness and communication with their caregivers (who have to be present anyways for the children to even be there) instead of leaving children open to learning on their own and in turn learning from actual awful people. Just going to also tack onto this, to plead with the SFW only crowd, to stop bringing in asexuals as a crutch for your arguments. It does not help and greatly dismissesses aro/ace people who enjoy expressions of kink in completely non-sexual ways and ultimately erases their forms of self expression and bodily atonomy as if they are all some sex/kink repulsed monolith. It's very belittling.
Most of the fandom are adults, not really worth it to cater to kids when Disney exists. Megaplex was 18+ this year and a ton of people attended. So putting an age restriction on an event isn't the negative that puriteens seem to think it is.
I think 10-12 is a good time for that or a couple years after a pet has passed. Which ever is earlier. ... I was about to post the above but realsing im not an expert I looked up and there was a guide of introduing children to the concept because it can happen at any age and sugarcoating it just confuses kids. There are however appropriate language and words to use depending on the age.
Honest answers are good! Thanks for sharing. Ya kids can be taught about the subject so long as you base it around their level of understanding of surrounding topics!
removing the sugar coating when you start being expected to interact with other people and kids, so by the time you'd hit kindergarden, might not just slap all the details and drip feed it, but they are already going to be around others and the world is a harsh place, not much reason to sugar coat anything after hitting that point since they are going to experience it one way or another.
I've noticed that certain paraphilias tend to follow each other. In time, I expect the ones that cluster around fertility boosting to become more commonly expressed in gene-modded humans. In a less pure minded wording: Expect hypers, both furry and non-furry, to become domanant as we start to learn how to mess with the genome.
Thank you for tackling this issue but I think your 20ies swimsuit and pup hood comparison is plain wrong. Just for the simple fact that swimsuits, especially back in the day, were usually not being used in an inherently sexual context. Pup hoods and pup gear in the year 2023 are used almost exclusively in a sexual context and are also seen as such by the general public. As much as you are trying to make a statement, people outside of the fandom will see pup hoods and pup gear as something nsfw.
Given there were institution that physically enforced modest politics which persist to the present day, some people did see the new fashion styles moving away from covering a lot of ones body as being inherently lustful in all context. That attitude changed to where swimsuits and normal revealing clothing was fine and even fashionable. Pup hoods/gear is used in wholesome ways which if people knew about would calm most of them down. Outsiders are not the main demographic of furry cons and given one of my points in the video is how interracial marriage is only within the decade been approved 94%, structuring ourselves around what "normal" people think is not the best idea. We should do what's good to do because it helps the most people. Understanding gear is not harmful to show off or acknowledge people do get laid is better for everyone same as removing the idea of modesty for clothing allowing women to wear pants
I've kinda been walking a fine line of thinking the fetish gear is more the sex part than the gear and while knowing what such gear is typically used for their not doing the kinky stuff in public that line of thinking always with out fail so far leads me to washing machines an their relation to military arms (id be specific but i actually cant remember time of typing)
Its of my personal opinion that sugarcoating is not the way to go. There are ways to explain a topic so that children understand and are not presented with unnecessary details that will harm their inexperienced understanding of topics. No need to lie, just teach it in a simpler way. If you dont know how, say that. "I wouldnt know how to explain that to you right now, lets come back to this later ok?" I believe kids have the same mental capacity as adults, not the same maturity, experience or grasp of complicated topics but we should teach with honesty and goodwill so that they develop as best as we can allow them too.
I think we as people just need to have good intentions instead of judging others by their appearance, or clothes. Weed out the people with bad intentions, weed out prejudice or hate within ourselves. When I first started to get further into the fandom, I had not a clue what a puritan was. And yet, I was labeled one when calling out fetish art posted in a 13+ server. I did not get uncomfortable with this art for bad intentions, it wasn't because I didn't like the person who posted it. But it was one furry "zapping" another with some electrical contraption, and the other furry looked scared and dazed, while the shooting one looked angry. It was art that was just uncomfortable because the characters were uncomfortable, it could be seen as scary. It scared me when I saw it, and I was under 18 at the time in this server. The caption over the art posted was, "wish this was me." Someone else said, "zaps you." There was clear pleasure and arousal from this, and I had to ask what their intention was in posting this content? The poster ended up admitting that the content is fetish, something they are aroused by. But from admins and the vocal minority of this community, they actively defended this user for what they posted, as something that "they just enjoyed and there is nothing wrong with that." It's wrong, not when it's self-wear or self-expression that can be "deemed" uncomfortable (like wearing a puphood), but it can be wrong when it's only for self pleasure. I can only deem the intention of posting something sexually arousing in a 13+ server as inappropriate, or NSFW. There is no way to justify something posted for that reasoning. And I had furries who taught children in elementary schools agree, that it would very much be inappropriate to flaunt content like the kind that was sent, the kind that got me called a "puritan" for protesting.
also the sugarcoating should be eased out around 14 and gone by 16 because now with the internet its harder to protect teens and further preteens from the undesired parts of it like the hexagon site. they shouldn't be allowed to view such things until they are 18 but should know of the prior as a way of giving them a better foresight for how to deal with the things they could encounter
Very entertaining video and well edited. I wrote out a massive response but deleted it because I'm so far removed from the furry fandom as an actual community, happily so, and I wish to remain removed from it as much as possible. I'm just happy that issues are being brought up and an attempt at dialogue is following it, even if this far from the first and last time. That's good stuff. Buuuuuuuuuuuut just to prove I watched the video, I don't think children should have things sugarcoated at any age, especially if the child is asking questions. That said, while I feel honesty is always best, it should be delivered with as much tact as honesty. You're still talking to a child about something they may not fully be able to grapple with yet, and you should ask them how they feel and what they make of something in their own minds as much as giving them straight facts. If I seriously had to put an age to it, I'd say 5 is the absolute latest but I stand by everything that came before it strongly. That's it, that's my little take, eat it hot or cold. Back to drawing butts.
If you ask me this should be a thing from the start. There should be a clear and uncrossed line from some adult and kid stuff and anything nsfw doesn't need to be explain all too much on why it's not shown around kids. I have a bunch of friends in the furry fandom and some of them are more heavy on 18+ stuff then others. This is never really a problem when it's around adult but not so much in public. Kids are like sponges and it doesn't help that they have a lot of curiosity to go with it. I can't count the amount of times a kid tries to sneak into something they shouldn't because they want to know/be part of it both irl and internet. There is only so much a parent can do when we bring things like BDragon, MSuits, V***, C***+, so on to public then overly saturate it like it's some every day normal thing to walk around publicly in a Msuit and such. If we was to allow it we NEED to separate it at least so there is clearly a fur con with adults only (id or whatever else needed) then a fur con open to everyone with clear rules and transparent moderation (Lets not pretend that some fur cons don't have questionable if not corrupt people running it). I didn't plan on ranting this much but this does make me reasonably annoyed. I get frustrated when I see it poorly manage online (social app or VRspace) and even more so irl.
If so I think it needs to be really clear what is NSFW and what is not at a con. For example a lot of people see harnesses as NSFW since some do use it in BDSM and it can be a fetish thing. However there also are some who use harnesses as just an accent or accessory. Like on a deer character with jingle bells or dog characters as dogs do wear harnesses.
this video has brought something to mind: the label "not safe for work" is not applicable, because for the vast number of attendees, conventions are not a work environment, so a new label should be used and defined. it's reasonable to determine what is appropriate for a space, but first, we must have an adequate, not-vague foundation on which to build, lest we exclude some of the very people foundational to the culture. i am glad more discussions about appropriateness are happening, but we sorely need context to fully understand the history of weaponizing children for ideological purposes. to ask bluntly: are we to consider "for the children" harm reduction arguments in good faith, when this country is actively neglecting, incarcerating, bombing, mutilating, and exploiting our children? to me, it's completely unserious, and part of a culture war so old we scarcely recognize it.
Personally - A pup / pony hood is a form of gimp hood. If you take the conversation and have someone wearing a gimp hood around a public, SFW space, most people wouldn't assume that it's apart of alternate culture accessories (like collars/harnesses have become) - Even if someone is wearing it for fun, it's inherently designated in the BDSM community as fetish gear. The public presently does not view it as appropriate in areas that are not After Dark.
I don't think family Friendly cons should out right "ban" fetish gear but be more stricture about when you can and when you cant wear gear in the public area of the hotel. I saw Multiple people wearing nothing but a jockstrap and nothing covering it except for a VERY short skirt that isn't even covering it at 2pm, not after dark
Again, the topless argument I made deals with the idea that someone's body isn't inherently sexual and why we view certain body parts as inherently sexual should be questioned. A person only wearing a jockstrap /can/ be sexual but it is objectively a piece of clothing covering the thing that's suppose to be out of view. So the question becomes "what's the harm" which again, points to the argument of why are cis-women not allowed to be topless in most USA states
just wondering. how do people feel about Odin Wolf's second channel? I personally think that, for youtube, some of the things he was talking about was shocking. I am no prude by a long shot, but I was just dumbfounded, the amount of detail he went in telling that story. (if you saw it you know what I am talking about.) even if it was for adults, we all know how easy a child can make an account, and find his channel. I hate to say it but I think his bann was kind of vallide......(and it really hurts me to say that)
Give how our species continues to propagate, every person will encounter reproduction. You can't hide that it exists. You can hide certain aspects of it HOWEVER the internet makes that harder. If you want to protect kids and adults, you need to educate people before they encounter it. Ignorance isn't gonna help kids, and in a future video I'll mention how said ignorance helps predators find victims Tldr: odin's ban was bad, parents and teachers need to educate their kids better, and idk why Nido got banned cause I didn't watch that channel lol
😂. just to be clear, I do feel bad for Odin. I don't think he even considered that he could get a little backlash. but I also can't say I never made any bad calls in life.@@PureKoor
@@drecatwolfuwu7948 From what I know of them, they seem like a fine person. Everyone makes some bad calls in life but his odin stuff was good. Again, unsure how they handled the nido channel
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7Wf0h1Q8a4/mqdefault.jpg)
My reflex is to say that there is never a good time to sugar-coat things. However, if I look back on my childhood, I think my parent's had a pretty decent approach. By the time I was about 6-8 years old, my parents were fairly direct about any subject.
thats like putting signs everywhere on a coaster saying "you may die from ride malfunctions"
On your query...
Children at any age deserve honesty and respect just as much as adults do. Making up lies and/or creating delusions won't help them to learn how to properly grieve and deal with loss, and at worse would harm their ability to trust their parents.
Yes, in a situation like this, i think that minors should have a say into this. most of the people that say to keep furry wierd always say that as a defence and it's annoying.
Kids can't consent; niether can animals.
@@MrRAGE-md5rjWhat does that have to do with educating young people about very important life topics?
I'm still not aware if my childhood pet died or got lost. I know by now they are gone, but for so long I secretly looked for them and waited for them to return.
If they were hit by a car or something I would have rather known. I would have been sad and cried a lot, but knowing my family could and had lied to my face on occasion when I was a child means that question gets to forever live rent free in my head.
@@MrRAGE-md5rjwhat does that have to do with anything?
On sugarcoating things, honestly if the kid asks/wants to know I'd want to be frank but tell them in what seems an appropriate manner for them at their age.
imo if they're old enough to ask they're old enough for an answer
@@RomanticoutlawAbsolutely this. Honestly the longer the truth is withheld from anyone the more harm it does.
@@Romanticoutlaw that's really questionable, idk about that one
I find it funny that people are complaining about SFW/NSFW spaces and children, yet not a single person is saying anything about child labor being increasingly legalized again in the US
Why shoud children not have the option to earn their own money?
@@EthicalBiohazard There's a difference between shoveling someone's driveway and working in a meat factory.
Ngl I should have brought this point up for this video. I made a similar point in my furry wheel drama video but ya. People's priorities dictate what's good and bad rather than what's actually good and bad in the modern day
In a world with a bunch of easy made hi-tech infrastructure and over-production of goods/services, maybe one should ask why our existence is tied to an endless need to acquire a small pool of capital instead of focusing on living one's limited life
In my country we almost got forced to work as kids, when my parents got divorced one of them stopped working and so we got a standart amount of money meant for just being able to live/eat and stuff from the government. But the issue is when I wanted to work, the amount of money I earned would be taken away from the monthly budget we got, so I would be literally be working and not earning anything. And besides that we as kids generally wouldn't even earn anything even though there's a minimum loan cause it's getting bypassed frequently at pretty much every workplace. So many kids here are working all the way through their weekends and after school till 5 or 6. Most of them start at the age of 13.
Here in Brazil we have a single furcon which is Brasil FurFest, which is the largest furry convention in South America, if this is not the most sfw, it is certainly among the most sfw. You can't do anything that might embarrass someone, you can't wear anything that is or looks suggestive, this includes any fetish accessories or suggestive fursuits, you can't walk around most convention venues with airsoft, or with toy bladed weapons, no staging a fight, nor many things that could create a bad situation. Basically it's like a hangout, with parties at night and a bazaar inside a hotel.
As for the question: because a certain surgical procedure mentioned can't reasonably be reversed, I want to mention that whether for, against, or undecided, it can be a painful topic for men to think about. This is why the fetishization of cut or uncut makes men feel uncomfortable or undesirable at times. I think we should have more frank discussions about autonomy, guilt, and regret to acknowledge the societal trauma surrounding it, rather than making it all about preferences.
Ye!
If you mean circumcision, sure. If you mean bottom surgery, SRS has a lower regret rate than things like knee surgery
@@lexirubber9210 It's the first topic ya
I've run conventions, and had to deal with people on both side of the NSFW argument. This is probably the most levelheaded take I've heard in 15 years.
Furry should be a weird, wonderful, open place for people to explore who they are, and who they want to be. It should also be a place for people to feel safe. Sometimes these things collide, and you get people shouting to "Ban all the things!" But one person's self-expression isn't necessarily an attack on someone else's. People need to understand that at an event as large as MFF (or any con) not everyone is going to express themselves the same way. And sometimes, people will be uncomfortable.
I'm glad my take is levelheaded! I have many arguments so hopefully I keep it that way haha
Getting rid of nsfw stuff would do nothing but hurt cons, mostly from a financial standpoint. NSFW makes tons of money across every fandom. What they need to do is have the mature stuff in a separate section just like the adult section
yeah this is the best comprimise to this whole situation
exactly
ion know, there’s too many kiddos at furcon.. but they can maybe have a separate con itself
@@NebulaHasADigBick dude, kids won't be able to get into the separate area because you need to show your ID to enter
@@Lightning_Wolf567 true
I'm gonna be that guy; I really think we shouldn't sanitise everything for kids. We should explain to kids that "Hey. Not everything is for you guys"
Kids do accept that answer if you explain why it's not for them. It's the lack of an answer that creates issues
very good discussion. I like a lot of the ideas here. in the case of pup hoods the discussion i heard at mff was always "imagine what a dad would have to say if their child asked about it." and that always felt like a weak argument. I'm glad you were able to put it in a much more concise and concrete idea.
Same haha. I'm glad you consider it well put!
yeah i feel like for pup masks, it can defanatly be considered a fursuit and it's not showing off peoples genitalia
@@BlockheatquavI've had people get angry at me for wearing a harness in a fursuit which they said that I was wearing sexual fetish gear. When it was actually for my safety as I'm a disabled person who has very bad coordination who needs someone to guide me. Then someone argued that they will take advantage over me. Which was incredibly beyond disturbing to me as those people are MY parents who are my handlers. Like WHY would you ever say such a horrid thing? And it's other people who take the assumption that it's for NSFW and shouldn't be worn around kids... I'm always wearing braces and stuff to help keep myself stable to even stand up and walk. Why should the harness that's to help prevent me from possible injury be anymore different than wearing braces for a disabled person? So yeah... I can definitely see why pup masks should be let allowed to wear them so long as it's not showing anything that a minor should never lay eyes on.
@@erebosthemogoreg oh sorry to hear that's happened to you. Personally I think that harnesses are fine as well because they also don't tend to show off ones genitalia
@@Blockheatquav Yeah, I just wish people weren't immediately judgemental or go right to thinking "That's fetish gear" rather than think about why are they wearing it? Could be for different reasons too and NOBODY is gonna know it unless it's blatantly obvious. And it's just... Terrible that people automatically assume things without knowing the story behind certain things.
Thought this was super informative, great video! On the topic of sugarcoating things like death I honestly think it’s fine to teach whenever the first occurrence of it happens after about 5? It’s a subject that will show up in life a lot and kids can understand those types of things. Understanding someone is gone and being able to grieve is likely healthier than waiting for them to come back and hoping they’re out there somewhere imo.
Ya, the grieving process is best to get out of the way earlier than later
4 year olds dont understand death tbh
@@EthicalBiohazard I’m kinda basing that off of the age I was when my great grandma died
@@EthicalBiohazardI am someone who has trauma from when I was 4 years old when I killed a fish without knowing that it needed water to breathe and thought the fish was just cold. I was scolded by my family and got scared and confused why the fish wasn't there anymore and why everyone was mad and upset. But when I got a little older my uncle bought me a pet iguana then killed it in front of me as punishment which I will not describe what happened unless one wants to hear the story on Discord... I was 5 or 6... Maybe almost 7 And I clearly remember it to this day as a 25 year old. I have PTSD from that. So maybe surely 4 year olds might not understand death.
@@HellbentDragon a
I don't see why death should be a secret at any age (it was never a mystery to me, at least) but sex on the other hand - I guess it depends on the culture. In cultures where sex is done without the concept of privacy, there will be no sugarcoating of sex. In American culture, at least, 6th grade was when I was taught about it via books and in school, so I guess that's a good time, just because that seemed to work alright for me. Guess that means my answer really was just based on the way my surrounding culture decided to do things rather than any carefully thought out reasoning on my part... O.O Oh, I see...
there are literally no cultures that sex is private. In fact, the United States probably has the most open culture about sex. Its weird af to think that innocent minors should be seeing shit like that
@@SpidaMezThe hell you on about!? America is one of the most conservative on the planet outside the Middle East! Have you seen the attitudes towards sex in most Asian countries? Or modern Europe? Yes there are aspects of American media that shows much but culturally? America is and has always been a Puritanical Christian Country at it's core.
@@SpidaMez - No, the US is open about discussing lifestyle choices, talking or joking about sex - but it is in many ways not open to sex as a normal everyday reality.
You're talk of "innocence" reflects a sex-negative attitude, as it frames sexuality in terms of "guilt". Kids only grow up thinking of sex as something embarassing and weird that needs to be hidden away because they are taught it by adults who feel that way. But I'd argue that isn't healthy. For example, kids aren't old enough to drive, yet nobody is afraid that letting kids SEE cars or driving, because that obviously doesn't hurt them. Same goes for voting, employment, etc. If kids have no exposure to those concepts when they are kids, then they will be clueless once they are adults. Preventing harm is important, but "moral panic" tends to cause harm because it's based upon rote forcing of behaviors rather than making good decisions.
@@voltijuice8576 Not gottna reat this bs
@@SpidaMez - How will you know if it's BS if you don't read it?
Being a furry doesn't automatically make someone in the fetish side of the fandom. If you are, great, but keep it in 18+ sections or in any other private area. There is no reason you need to be walking around in fetish gear at a con. I'd say a lot of the fandom welcomes the younger furs and they should be allowed to roam around a family friendly area in a convention and not worry about seeing anyone wearing fetish gear. Know the time and place
Watch the video
@@PureKoor I wasn't exactly saying that to you, sorry if it came across that way, was meant just more towards the commentors
My video disagrees with your statement which is why I wrote the original response. My swimsuit and topless argument directly ask why we view that great as nsfw in the first place. Why is it not kids friendly if used as just fashion?
I think it’s the same as like condoms for instance, shure you can wear it as a wrist band, but that doesn’t mean it’s a safe for work item. I also don’t think that the topless thing is good either, there should be designated areas for that outside of the view of minors. I also don’t really like the idea that men and wemon should be held to the EXACT same standards. And let me explain. I think it’s proof enough that men and we men have obviously different bodies. Men have different inappropriate parts than women. Im not saying I ether that we shouldn’t disrespect that persons gender. Kids are young and impressionable, I think they should be taught these complicated things, in a light manner. Also these kinds of things can significantly harm a child’s mind, leaving them with long term mental damage. So I think that there is a limit to what should be shown around children at cons, if it makes all kids and parents uncomfortable, then it’s not about if someone wants to do it, it’s about is it harmful. So like the pup masks are I’d say fine, since they aren’t inherently sexual, or used for any sexual purposes other contact wise. That’s why a muralist would be bad, or a but plug. That’s my thoughts, feel free to ask me anything, or if you have any good debate points to bring up. Also I just kind of feel that skirt length and sexual devices are very different, and don’t parallel that well. But to your question of what is nsfw, it’s that. (Though quite honestly I don’t think a guy going shirtless in the middle of the office would be tolerated either.)
@@tamaruautumn5325 Honestly the most NSFW aspect about the condom is the lubricant. Otherwise having it dangle on your wrist is trashy fashion (like wearing plastic goercy bags for a tshirt), but it'd be fine to show off ya. Kids go to beaches and are fine so you're gonna have to explain the "outside of view" space better cause you're assuming we have the same beliefs. Similar to the mental damage, can you explain the process step by step? How can kids see movies about guns and be fine (except in the usa) but knowing what a butt plug is will destroy them?
Also I'm pretty pro-equality and equity. Not sure how men getting excited about another's chest means said person being oggled needs to control themselves. Seems like the better solution is to just teach the dude to stop being weird
Also not sure how you personally think pup masks are not inherently sexual but boobs are if both are seen by the majority as sexual currently. How do you square that circle.
Honestly, the answer is "whenever this little shit pops a question" about anything really. Ofc, as many stated before - in an age appropriate manner. Parents should be guides for children, and should double as fount of knowledge, which will sate their curiosity. And they should be adult enough to say "I don't know, let me get back to you later" or shit make it a learning experience for both them and their child.
Ofc, this is very idealistic cuz there are multitudes of factors that can affect what and how a child learns about sth, like you said, for example biases that we've been raised with because sth is "societally mandated" or whatever damage that parents have that fucked them up, and how that damage will fuck up their child in a unique way, the environment a child grows up in, blah, blah, blah.
Or you know, why not be a psychopath and troll your children.
"Dad, what is that person wearing?"
"Oh you see dear, they were a very bad, misbehaving person, and as a punishment for their bad behaviour they've been turned into a part dog person, and they are terribly facially malformed. And both as a way to hide how ugly they are now, and to tell everyone what a bad person they are they have to wear what is called a 'pup hood.' Now, I hope you'll behave because we wouldn't want to turn you into a part dog person and put that mask on you now, would we?"
Or
"Dad, why did they have to die?"
"You see dear, we all have an invisible clock ticking down our time on this planet. All the processes that are taking place right now, inside your body, are fighting against a concept known as entropy, which in simplest terms means that everything strives for chaos, and we die when we reach peak chaos in our bodies. But there are also things outside of our bodies that can kill us at any moment, you, me, we, anyone, everyone can die just like that [(snaps fingers) is referencing Thanos cringe?] unlikely as it is. And we don't know what, if anything, happens after death. And despite what some people will tell you, we don't know if god, or gods, or entities so technologically advanced that we may as well see them as gods, exist. We don't know if it's just nothing, if we become something else on this planet if we die, or if our essence called 'soul' goes some places else. These latter two ideologies called 'religion' are just ways in which people for thousands of years made themselves feel better and/or found meaning in life, which the only meaning life has is the one that you'll ascribe to it, and/or made themselves feel righteous and motivated to oppress and kill others that disagree with them or the rules of their religion. You of course are welcome to join any of them if you want, but some of them will require you to do and not do things. Like fast, which means you can't eat certain foods for a certain period of time. And that is why I prefer not to believe in anything, because I like my chocolate and am not giving it up for some made up rule, and think that doing good things and helping others should be motivated with simple 'because that also makes me feel good,' and not because I'm terrified of eternal punishment, but that's topic for another day. Now, to answer 'why did they have to die?' it's simple because everyone dies, and everything ends. Right now there are countless people who died and no one knows their names and their story or that they even existed in the first place, which makes it so that they might as well have not. And that is why dad has created a very tight daily, two decades spanning schedule packed to the brim with different activities that will ensure that you'll create your own legacy and thus be remembered forever, and through that so will I. And would you look at that, I'm also giving you a tragic backstory of having a 'caring, but emotionally distant and strict father' at the same time, the sacrifices I make for you. Oh, look at the time, you're 5 minutes past your break, but I'll admit I played a part in that so this time you'll not be punished and will be able to eat supper, but chop chop, piano won't learn to play itself."
(The child doesn't intercept with any follow up questions, in either of those examples because it's been thoroughly trained not to interrupt their parent lest they be punished.)
Wow, so that was unhinged, but I had fun creating these scenarios, thank you.
to me its always been fairly simple. If it is done with a sexual intend, to cause sexual arousal in anyway or fulfill a sexual fetish. Then it should stay completely away from minors, and shouldnt be accidentally viewable by people who do not consent to viewing it. This goes for all things personally, including art and content online.
i think the tricky part sometimes is knowing when or if something is done for the sake of sexual-..nes.. like for a random, dumb example, you could argue you just like the way a sex toy looks and youre not currently using it or are sexually aroused by it and youve cleaned it after using it, but does that mean you should carry it around and show it off in front of children?
oh yeah i should mention this is sort of irrelevant for nsfw cons but dont those still take place in public spaces where other people can see? im not really sure how it works, ive never gone to a con
Most cons have rules and age verification. The problem is people draw the line of what the rule entails differently. People are tend to follow normie norms around the public area of the con
In regard to sugarcoating certain topics, I think honesty would be the best. As lying and keeping the truth hidden could do more harm than good.
In regard to allowing NFSW/SFW at conventions, I believe a compromise should be made so that everyone, or most people, will be satisfied.
In regard to when people should be educated on NSFW content, I think it depends on their level of mental maturity.
As a minor myself, I wish we were treated with more respect and not assumed all of us are dumb and naive. People develop at varying rates; you don't just immediately become mature when you reach 18.
I've never been to a con, so I can't throw my opinion out on how they should and shouldn't be managed. But I do agree with compromising, maybe not everyone will be satisfied, but a good majority will be.
I concur on the "you don't magically become mature at 18". I've seen so many young people who've been bashed for making "irresponsible decisions as an adult" when said "adult" is 18, 19, or in their early 20s. There's no magical fairy that blesses you with knowledge on how the world works when you become of age. Adults make mistakes, and I feel like we hold people who haven't even reached 21 yet to higher than normal expectations.
I especially agree on the mental maturity too, people grow and progress at different rates. And that has an affect on how NSFW education is received and processed. And despite minors still not being "of age", there's a point where we get tired of being treated like we're made of glass.
Just replying because I agree with you. Hope you have a great day!
Imagine comparing woman to fetishes. Nobody wants to know about what turns you on, so yeah, fetishes are NSFW and I don't wanna see it. Want NSFW on the con? Make it 18+ only
The swimsuit modest laws applied to men too. Laws that restrict people's rights based on old puritan/religious laws will tend to affect women more ya
Also, if you're gonna restrict people, you need to be able to state the harm. Like actually write it out
@@PureKoor I need to explain why exposing minors to fetishes is bad? You're really rn?
At this point you're just porn addicted 💀
I think nsfw should be kept between adults in adult settings. we can't keep crying about all the hate we get, when a large part of us continue to put nsfw content any place we feel like. nothing wrong with it, but as a community we need to be more mindful about what we do in public. my partner is not a furry, but he is ok with it, and understands it more, but only because I showed him more of the great parts about being a furry. the art, the loving and open community, the ways people find life long friends, the way we support each other. it makes me sad that after so long, we are still looked at as creeps. kids will always be around, and I would like feel like I can have my niece know more about her uncle's life, but I can't because some of us just don't care. let's do better.
I completely agree with you. It really sucks that you can go to a lot of regular family friendly events and these things arent as much of a problem there, but in furry fandom events they often are and you get called a hater or an antifur for even wanting a discussion about protecting minors. Also, getting defensive when a parent isnt comfortable about what is allowed at a family friendly event makes us look even more like creeps. I was actually SA'd by a relative as a kid and its a thing pedos actually do, they get defensive when its brought up, so getting defensive rather than having a discussion is really not a good look for the fandom (I am not saying the fandom wants to be predators, I am saying that getting defensive is the same shit predators do, so they really should just open up to having discussion and compromise)
yes. we really need to call each other out more when things go far. not to shame anyone, but like you just said, thinking of minors, and making EVERYONE feel safe is important. we have all grown up as furries, and i think it's time the community as whole should too. we should try to help or fellow furries to remember what we really stand for, and be more mindful, otherwise the hate for us will never change. I am sooo happy that i am not the only one who feels this way. @@TheBluePony3
Please refer to my interracial marriage argument, because you are wrong about where hate comes from.
@TheBluePony3 Furries discuss how to protect kids all the time without name calling. Twitter furries call people names but even when you talk to them privately they tend to be more nuanced about the situation. People don't always have the best communication skills but the idea that the fandom gets defensive about these topics is false which is why more and more people accept furries when they learn about the fandom. I'm sorry you had to experience that as a kid.
@@PureKoorI am sorry, I am new to the fandom and the sexual stuff in this fandom was a bit jarring to me compared to other fandoms (though it doesnt beat anime in that area). I am not trying to come off as mean at all, but I did one time try to ask questions about the adult side of the fandom out of curiosity, and maybe I just happened to talk to the wrong people at the wrong time but they were treating me like crap for asking questions, and DID get very defensive. It happened on a forum and in VRChat, so maybe it was just wrong people at the wrong time (VRC ppl DO tend to drink a lot). I appreciate you trying to be polite. I am sure a resolution can be made that benefits everyone, people just need to be willing to have the discussion
I think we should still keep NSFW in conventions we just need to have it in a secluded area and time. That’s way we can keep all of the 18+ away from minors.
Or you could have a dedicated floor for it, that’s what sac anime does, and I didn’t see one bit of nsfw outside of it. It was pretty awesome.
I think around 12-13 is a good age to stop sugar coating, maybe 11 depending on the situation
It's a good age to where they're gonna be asking more n more questions, perceiving more of the world, and will be faced with difficult and new things
It's better to do it then than any later I think :0
I got exposed to some very fucked up things at ages 5-7 years old and has trauma, PTSD from it as a 25 year old now. Especially involving pets and punishment which was literally taking the life out of a pet cause I did something bad as simple as stealing candy from a small shop...
Children are as individualistic as the rest of humanity. And with this fact in mind, I think it completely depends on upon the child you're dealing with. When they start asking, that's when you tell them the truth with the caveat. You need to tell them the truth in the language of their present age. A 5-year-old just does not have the same cognitive ability to understand death in the same way a 15 year old can.
One important thing to also consider is that not every "weird"/marginalized person should have to be an activist/ambassador for their cause 100% of the time. "Safe spaces" are meant to be shelter from bigotry/prejudice that exists in wider society: if someone is attacking non-normative forms of self-expression (i.e. pup hoods), they are making that space unsafe for people who the rest of the world _isn't_ a safe space for. The burden shouldn't be constantly put on them to defend their right to just EXIST as their true selves. Other people who _aren't_ under attack in that moment need to stand up for them, and think critically about the difference between "weird" and "harmful".
This is true, however if you are doing a "weird" thing you gotta be an advocate as to why it's fine. People should be better about listening but many just aren't taught how to do that and we need to be prepared for
@@PureKoor I don't think it's reasonable to make "weird" people constantly defend their right to be themselves in a supposed "safe space", though. Answering well-intentioned questions is one thing, and we absolutely should do that! But when it's "PROVE to me that my prejudice towards you is wrong", doing that work is both exhausting and *UNSAFE* for the person defending themselves. Yes, it needs to be done, but that's why we need *allies* outside of the targeted group to speak up & challenge prejudice too. And also why we need "safe spaces" to be places where we DON'T have to talk people out of attacking us all the time.
Agreed
Top tier comment my friend.
It's not reasonable. Given my background, most of my life has been proving why prejudice is wrong and that's just been a norm. Allies help but a bigot isn't gonna go after an ally, they're just gonna go after the main weird person. People who are viewed as weird need to be prep'd for that situation, even as unfair as it is and even within all safe spaces. Safety is an illusion, one that should be upheld but ultimately is a lie we tell ourselves to feel better. Walls are a deterrent not a magical forcefield. Everyone's gotta learn how to talk at anytime anyplace
Just off the title alone, I’d say that this could easily be fixed by either having an nsfw area in every convention that is separate or just conventions that mention nsfw is allowed tbh..
Watch the video
I dont feel like death should be sugar coated at any age, instead just kept brief, I believe it does more harm to lie to the child about their pet being somewhere else alive instead of gone would just create more issues, the child constantly asking to visit and when the truth comes out i believe it would hurt more than telling them directly. ie ' Rover died and his body doesnt work anymore.That means his heart isn't beating and letting him run and play with us like he used to. we cant play with him anymore or pet him anymore but that doesnt mean we cant love him and he cant love us. we have all of these happy memories together and we will always have him with us through those" and focusing more on the emotional aspect for the child vs going in-depth on how they died and what will happen to the body. not necessarily until they are older but more so until they have grieved.
I was lied to a lot about what happened to my pets as a child... Even "discovered" them... And has Also had a pet killed in front of me as punishment for misbehaving which was stealing candy from a small shop... I was 5-7 years old at the time. And then they told me "They're somewhere else still alive." Yet YOU did that in front of me. (・_・;) And yes .. I have trauma, I have PTSD from this...
Nah pup hoods should be in adult spaces only honestly same with other stuff like hyper boobs/ass/crotch on fursuits not just for "protecting the children" but for ppl like me who find em offputting and uncomfortable because for as much as ppl say pup hoods aren't sexual they sure act that way when wearing them and even when they're not they're just very creepy.
If it's an after dark party or some form of adult/private space then whatever but honestly in general kink gear should not be so casual in public at cons
Can you actually describe the harm. Like on a technical level what does the pup hood do that causes harm. Cause like I mentioned in the video, people were offput and uncomfortable with women showing the ankle. So your feelings are not something to be ignored, but also aren't an argument in it of itself
@@PureKoor For the same reason I wouldn't wanna see other kink gear out and about which pup hoods are. In adults spaces sure but seeing them out and about as casual as a regular fursuit/costume? no thanks
No matter how ppl try to spin it it will always be kink gear to me and it's uncomfortable to see (on a more personal note I just find them creepy).
To put it simply much like harnesses which are used for BDSM pup hoods are literally the same sort of gear they aren't technically sexual but they were made first for that and I don't think that should be a thing in non adult only spaces or in private. (much like being in underwear isn't inherently sexual but it's not appropriate in a lot of scenarios)
@@ZackFair78 again, can you describe the harm on a technical level? Like list out the process of harm not just how you feel. People find blood uncomfortable and creepy but without it your body does not function. A pup hood is not vital as blood but folks who use pup hoods seem to have benefits to their lives including improving social situations, being happier, and having a creative outlet. So why does your discomfort outweigh the good a pup hood does?
as a non-furry for whom this year's MFF was my first experience with the con and otherwise first REAL furry experience in my life, I feel like... yeah, it... people DID get pretty weird at this year's SkyBridgeCon, literally as I was LEAVING the Con Center on the 3rd night, going with some buddies to try a weird sushi place we'd seen on the gluten-free app, there were two, I assume murrsuiters? I hadn't been wearing my glasses, as I'd left them in the Hyatt, but I was PRETTY SURE one suiter had a... frontal attachment, the other was rubbing, and the other's head piece literally had a foam ball-gag in? like, I dunno, it was 9 PM, so fair enough, but Jeez man...
I do think a good line is if one is try to do the do, they should go to the room. Cause that can create unsanitary concerns lol.
@@PureKoor while your comment gave me an absolute stroke to read, I do agree. No duh they should. Assumedly that was just them "flirting" and they were gonna go shortly, but Jesus, man...
In my opinion a good time to not sugar coat subjects would be 7-9. I only think this because the person is starting to form opinions on everything, if you as a parent sugar coat it they won’t learn and be able to deal with decision making. (Children shouldn’t be treated like adults but should be given the same respect)
As a minor I think it would be great to add either a time system or just make split areas like one side is more safer to younger people or people who don't like the Nsfw side, and with the timing it could be a time system of when Nsfw can be around and when It could not. But also Cons could have an age limit as well as in say a more Nsfw con can have people 18+ and a con for more younger or people uncomfortable with Nsfw have there own con
Time systems are already a thing as well as area slits. Some cons do just do 18+. The question here is not solutions for segregation, it's asking why our society hides critical information for staying safe and having peaceful cohabitation
@@PureKoor Man the community sucks on trying to keep everyone safe and enjoying cons...
I think the age we should stop sugar coating things to kids really depends on the child but I’d have to say around 10 at the latest, because anything past that could be harmful for a child’s development in my opinion. For example I myself have always been aware of the concept of death even thought I was never really taught about it, thankfully my parents were always open and ready to talk about these topics with me and my sibling to help us process how we felt about these topics. This is why I think the adults in a child’s life should be able to decide what to shield their child for a certain amount of time but should also remain open and ready to talk about heavy topics in a child friendly way.
Especially because of the other reason I believe children shouldn’t be shielded from heavy topics too much, which is the consequences of doing so. Like I said earlier I was always aware of heavier topics that most parents didn’t want to introduce their children to until they absolutely had to. This wasn’t a problem for me until I started to get older.
Due to the fact most parents waited to talk to their kids about heavier or uncomfortable topics, most of my fellow peers in early school years would either learn these harsh truths in completely horrible or humiliating ways or they would find out the information and use it against other students in horrible ways. For example when some kids in my elementary school grade class learned about sex from the fifty shades of grey movie and were “teaching” other students how to do what they saw in the movie (you can imagine how horrible this situation was) The teachers mortified went to the parents but when the teachers confronted the parents and told them what their students were doing the parents got angry at the staff and told them they couldn’t tell their kids why what they were doing to the other students was wrong because they didn’t want their kid to learn about sex. Even though they had allowed them to watch the movie already💀.
In summary I’m not anyone should introduce children to things like sex, kids definitely shouldn’t be heavily sheltered and or censored from things that could be detrimental for their emotional and mental growth in the future. Especially when it can do more harm then good.
From experience I know there's little reasoning within the fandom since everyone's opinion is already deeply set in stone, but what's wrong with SFW and NSFW conventions? I understand people want their safe spaces but sometimes the means of expression are not for every audience and undermines the safe space of someone else.
Within the fandom not everyone aligns with pup hoods, other "neutralised" fetish gear, and nsfw suits being appropriate. The big difference with the swimsuit argument is that an entire country slowly shifted it's opinion to finding swimsuits acceptable attire. Furries already have a tendancy to diverge from the norm, but it's also a small part of the population meaning theres fairly little leverage to decide whether what you think minors should be subjected to. In the end it's the parents of the minor that should decide what's best for them, and since the sentiment towards fetish gear is still NSFW in the eyes of many normies its a thing you'll have to learn to deal with. Hence 18+ NSFW parts of the conventions can help people to truly feel comfortable amongst people who are also waaay more inclined to give you that space and show acceptance. The fact that there needs to be a seperation isn't that bad, there will always be social norms and the line we draw is about in the middle what everyone thinks.
I'm already really super thrilled to see acceptance towards furries grow so rapidly. I remember when I actively started participating in the fandom about a decade ago, normies were significantly more vicious towards us. Now people don't really look funny at you anymore for whipping out a laptop with furry stickers or having a furry as your phone background. Ofcourse every now and then there's an insult but hey, everyone sometimes has to take a mean comment on the chin from a douchebag about anything anyways, it's a non furry related issue. Especially on the internet. Let's enjoy these liberties for a while rather than suddenly pushing more heavy stuff (that's not even related to most people in the fandom anyways) onto the rest of the world and tarnishing our reputation... I mean, despite owning a custom hood myself, I also get really uncomfortable when I see people with a hood out in the open for people to see who didn't ask for it. Just meet up with like-minded people that are into the same stuff, there's your "safespace". I do know that the majority of people couldn't care less what you do between 4 walls, alone, with a partner or with other people. But a convention is too big and diverse to expect everyone to be like-minded, there should be boundaries.
If you just want to wear these things, it's absolutely fine with everyone as long as you go show it off to like-minded people. I know there's a lot of artistry and beautiful designs that may be NFSW and I understand the appeal to show it off to people who are also comfortable seeing that. But I do find it really weird and off-putting to see full grown adults get upset about the fact they can't show off their NSFW gear to minors. You simply can't expect people to be okay with that
I'm a bit fearful this behaviour will both result in the reputation for furries to go downhill again, but you also risk people who now have a positive or neutral stance towards things like hoods and harnesses change their minds as they want to prevent people to get exposed to it without it being called for.
Its gonna be similar where now I've seen aot of LGBT+ acquaintances slowly distance themselves from pride because of similar behaviour, trying to distance themselves from the image people get from non-modestly clothed people in parades and stuff (putting it lightly). I wouldn't be surprised, if this continues that something similar will happen.
I'm personally not affected by this, I'm in a bit of a final chapter when it comes to the fandom. Done a fair share of fursuiting, conventions, role playing, made friends and stuff but I lost my connection a bit. We don't have to fight every fight, and a lot of things are done in the name of a big group of silent people that don't even agree.
Most people are willing to change their mind if you talk with people. The fandom collectively has biases but individual change making said biases change over time. And ya certain separations are good, but /why/ there's a separation really needs to be thought about more.
When people were exposed to furries enough, they had to make a choice. Said original choice was to ridicule but when normies see furries as just people with a hobby that (for the most part) adheres to closely related societal norms, most realize there's no harm thus don't care. Many anti-furries's actions are just thinly veiled attempts to be racist/anti-lgbt/etc against a group that has the excuse of "weird animal people" as cover. A cover which can bring people back to hating furries if framed correctly similar to what happens in other subjects along racial, lgbt+, etc lines. Like, should PoC sit at the back of the bus because it makes some white people feel uncomfortable? Hopefully the answer is no, but that "no" answer took a lot of effort to get by the people who were being forced to the back. If there are boundaries, there needs to be justifications. And like-mindedness in most cases is a bad point. Adults are wearing fashion that they like and there happens to be kids there which is different from "forcing minors to see it".
You should do what's right, not what's easy. When it comes to slavery this is an easy ask /nowadays/ but like I mentioned in the video, the USA still uses slave labour so we're better than pre-civil war times. However we still accept USA slavery as part of our production process and that was done to appease the same folk who distance themselves from non-modest lgbt/furry folk.
If people don't agree they should talk it out, our culture of being so meek and sanitized as to not create social conflict is why everyone talks past each other. If you don't want conflict but want to be vocal, then screaming into the void to gain /only/ those who are like minded will be the end result. I hope you reconnect with the fandom one day, there's many amazing people here and with many more joining there's a lot to learn and explore! To ensure we keep said fandom we do need to commit to some battles that ensure everyone is better off!
This is the best response I have read to this topic
@@PureKoor You are typing a lot of words, yet not really conveying an actual message that gives more details than your video. To somewhat summarize your message, you say people now accept furries because it's a fairly normal thing, but because a small part of furries do stupid stuff some normies are out to try hard to frame furries for being an appropriate target to bully. Then you make a completely unrelated comparison to struggles of a (still) truly marginalized group, whilst trying to make another comparison with said marginalized group with people trying to wear NSFW attire being "just fashion" and minors have to learn to deal with it. Also going over whether wearing hoods and harnesses in pubic, you try to tie the struggles slavery to it, specifically exclaiming the perspective of what people do in 1 out of like 200 countries in the world, generalizing the entire community with the sentiment of furries to only are in contact with. Yadayadayada, uplifting furry stuff, I wouldn't say the average furry is more interesting than just... the rest of the population besides liking humanoid animals, and in order to keep a fandom in existence that likes roleplaying as a humanoid animal, we have to protect unrelated individuals.
The seperation is already very obvious intrinsically though. For centuries people have been anthropomorphizing animals and it comes as a very natural thing. People have always been fascinated by these depictions, have been relating to animal traits, writing literature with animals with human traits or vice versa etc. Later throughout history better depictions and animations came along, and now people are creating their own characters, roleplaying like them and dressing up like them. It's been a fairly natural progression and has no sexual roots.
The harnesses and hoods people nowadays wear are from a taboo NSFW origin. There's probably a way bigger market share of people using this kind of stuff to spice up their sex lives (probably a group way larger than people expect) compared to people that really need these items to truly express themselves naturally.
Hence a fursuit in the wild is usually associated with a cool cuddly mascot, whilst a hood in the wild is considered inappropriate by the big majority of the non-furry population.
Simply minimizing this matter and framing it to be "wearing fashion that they like and there happens to be kids" is not gonna win people over. Besides this, not everyone hates furries anyways. It's a small group of douchebags on the internet, 80% of the people don't even know of the existence 15% doesn't have an opinion, 5% did pick a side of whose the silent majority is for us and not against us. It's as bad as you make it, I think probably more people are bullied for the way they look than the fact they're a furry.
If we are going to make somewhat unrelated extreme comparisons, then I'll chip in with the following:
I'm from a somewhat liberal country, in primary school I've seen depictions of real genitals in sex ed, and in the very first years of secondary school, we had to do stuff like putting condoms onto dildos and nuva cups into fleshlights for a grade (again during sex ed). As a minor I was well enough educated by the schooling system about genitals, but that doesn't mean I would've been comfortable by, for instance, seeing nudists in public. There's for many people a big difference between educating and practicing. The fact it exists, does not mean everyone has to do it in public in front of an audience. For nudists, in my country we have nudist beaches and campings as "safe spaces" for people who feel most comfortable with themselves being naked. They get to be with like-minded individuals. As a citizen of my country, I fully support these things, whilst as an individual, I prefer to distance myself from visiting such locations. I respect them, they get to be whoever they want to be with like-minded people. Obviously I want them to have equal rights, not be marginalized, bullied, given any penalties etc. for their fascinations, but that does not mean I am comfortable seeing random people be naked in public spaces. I tolerate and accept, despite a social barrier being in place.
argument
I'll keep it short for you then, your summary of me is incorrect. Real world politics effect hobbies. Given the first furry con was an offshoot of a startrek con gathering which included LGBT+, kink, and more within its members, comparisons to marginalized groups is more than reasonable. Also given the device you're writing on uses materials often retrieved via slave/child labour, it's def not 1/200 countries so that comparisons to slavery and its localized quirks works well.
A group being formed and people's historical interest are different even if there's overlap. The USA's modern fandom roots back to that startrek gathering. Look up photos and zines from the first furry con please.
My video uses the subject of toplessness to ask why there's a taboo in the first place? Everyone already agrees that our current taboos/mores/folkways/laws exist.
Again, I bring up half the population inability to be topless cause society views their bodies as inherently sexual to point out that your discomfort is weird. The question I'm asking you to ask yourself is, why does knowing/seeing a person/object that could be sexual in other context bother you? Are there reasons for your discomfort beyond mere learned disgust?
*edit: the first con name is ConFurence 0. Only search if you're above 18
@@PureKoor It's any summary, you weren't clear in the conclusion you're trying to pull so I pulled a random one that also lines up to whatever you wrote despite it not being the message you try to convey.
I actually do have two acquaintances that went to ConFurence in the very very early days, and I also do know there were age restrictions because of the kinks. These people also did not advocate for it being fine for minors to look at NSFW stuff like you're trying to advocate for. It was a closed group of people with mutual interest... a relatively small safe space for people that were into these things. Besides this, I do not really understand why you now suddenly feel the urge to warn people about looking at pictures of this convention on the internet. The people in these old photos should be free to express themselves in any way shape or form right? It's just institutionalized that what they display is "a reason for discomfort beyond mere learned disgust".
Obviously the furry fandom had to begin as an offshoot from a different fandom if you bother to read up a bit into the zeitgeist of the 80s. Internet was barely a thing back then, only really having archaic message boards to find likeminded people. With even owning a computer or a modem out of the question for many at the time, people had to find each other though other gatherings. The theme, Startrek, in and by itself probably was just another mutual interest. The more deeply rooted fascination of people for anthropomorphized animals most likely caused furries to clog together at these conventions to the point they started to meet up and later start conventions like ConFurence.
You are also comparing to LGBT+ and people of colour, identifiers people are born with and can not change whatsoever. Wearing hoods, harnesses, sexy NSFW leather deer costumes etc. is a choice. It is inherently a bad comparison. An MtF in the middle of transition can't just simply change her gender real quick to conform to an intolerant society, neither can someone with a darker skin tone suddenly blend in with white people like an octopus can. It inherently makes no sense to ask these people to avoid showing themselves because of the way the are, hence in a modern society people collectively try hard to push to do something about this.
A sexualized hood, or for someone to go around walking topless has sexual connotations, and are a choice for that reason. You can take a hood off, and you can put a shirt on to prevent people feeling uncomfortable, there are dedicated areas where people are completely free to go to in order to dress what they want with other people. (in my country, also for men this is considered exhibitionism and isn't allowed).
"My video uses the subject of toplessness to ask why there's a taboo in the first place? Everyone already agrees that our current taboos/mores/folkways/laws exist.
The question I'm asking you to ask yourself is, why does knowing/seeing a person/object that could be sexual in other context bother you?"
This is an irrelevant question, instead, the question you should be asking yourself is, /where/ do you think the line should be drawn where something isn't appropriate anymore?
This line is a product of things like history culture and society of course, a very large and very gray area. Not only is this different from country to country, even within countries or even subcultures there are deviations. It is completely arbitrary and can be drawn anywhere. In the Victorian era, for example, it was already scandalously kinky to show your ankles (something that's over the top for most westerners), whilst in the Greek era, it was casual and appropriate for grown men to have sex with young boys (something completely not-done for most westerners).
It may also be learned behaviour to think a kinky hood represents yourself better. At the other hand, it is very difficult to change people to let go of their learned behaviours. I think normalizing hoods and harnesses is inconsiderate towards the majority of people that are into this stuff simply for the fact the whole appeal is the fact it's a kink. The entire fun of these items is spanking, clawing and dominating each other in harnesses, hoods, latex and leather between 4 walls, whilst in the outside world you go about being some businessman, cashier, nurse, police, doctor, secretary, accountant or whatever. It would completely take away the magic for a big group of people to go normalize these taboos and kinks. They slowly get normalized, let's be patient and let it happen naturally. It is ignorant to fight for something in the name of a group of people where a substantial part doesn't even agree anyways. This is part of the reason why I lost my connection to the fandom, I just want to RP and fursuit a bit, we fought for our fandom to be put into positive daylight, now people are acting like freedom fighters for people that aren't even mainly associated with the fandom. Fight for them, yes, but not in-the-name-of.
I have a hard time with your slavery comment. I know most of the country during the suppression of my ancestors were completely unaware of all of this stuff happening simply because they were trying to get by themselves. That's why we don't hold them accountable. The small group of people that did commit the crime are gone as well. It took for the French to invade the country and to do a massive reform in order to give us the same rights and only a century after industrialization people started to travel to our region freely to find out what actually happened in order for the whole fiasco to be written out of the history books. You probably are also using devices made by slavery to comment in this comment section, if you actually genuinely cared and oppose it, then atleast attempt to be our example and educate us actively how to avoid this rather than using it as a cheap argument and not attempting to conform to it yourself. I hate to try to justify myself, I can't live without a computer, but I already ditched my smartphone years ago, eat local food and live on second hand stuff to prevent contributing to all this nonsense but alas.
So my opinion is, do whatever you want to do, how wild and out there the hobbies are you want to partake in... just do it with the people that are also interested into it. If they go beyond the social norms of the people in the country the convention is held at, announce it actively, do some after dark +18 part of the fandom and don't let minors attend. And maybe most importantly, if you are gonna be edgy, do it in the name of yourself, not me or others in a group you happen to be a part of. We all live in our bubbles with people around us that are more inclined to think like us so it is easy to forget not everyone shares your opinion.
id say maybe around 10-14 y/o should kids be introduced to how "nsfw" things work and how to deal with and avoid certain situations that could harm them if they hadnt known. primarily because thats the age kids start getting puberty and i think that kids should understand whats happening to their bodies and why.
i was told about how babies were made around that time. it was gross but it didnt effect me in the long run since its all natural stuff. i was also told about the sexual/homocidal things people could do to me if i dont be careful which i think actually really helped me avoid certain situations i would have gotten into if i didnt know how to deal with and im grateful for that. its scary to know but its much better being scared by the knowledge than being traumatized by the experience or worse.
Imo i think that there should be some regulations, but not an out right ban. pup masks and harnesses are ok imo because theyre not showing off the actual genitals of a person. Also i feel like that the only way is to make a comprimise like small regulations that dont tread on baning. but also places that can allow this stuff to happen,( like an 18+ space). mine dose have a bit of biased as alot of people who've argued with me have called me some prety shitty stuff. Great vid BTW
I think I read the wildest take on this on Twitter/X. Someone said that wearing a pup hood is violating for them because they didn't consent to it. Like, what? To me it feels as if someone were to say "Well I don't like people talking in public in small groups because I didn't give them permission to." It's wild...
I think things are only NSFW or not ok if we attribute them that meaning. Collars, chokers, revealing clothing, all that used to be more reserved for the private and sexual encounters and now they seem to be more acceptable in public. Times change and that's ok.
There's a version of consent that forgets the autonomy of self concept for both parties. Rather they become in favor of one's own experience only. This is probably due to how social media curates worlds around the user rather than with the collective user base
Basically hyper individualized to the point where they become an unknowing dictator. Imo, we're probably gonna get more segregationist thought over time due to these systems which is sad :c
@@PureKoor It is quite sad, not gonna lie :c
I think the simple thing is to put age ratings on cons. If there's kiddos around, make it kid friendly. Easy
Adults are also trying to remove NSFW from adult spaces so that doesn't fully work. Uneasy :c
@@PureKoor I admittedly have never personally been to a furry convention nor do I fully understand some of the words used in this video so I might just be missing the context
I guess it boils down to compassion and respect, a lot of furries look to use for spaces as a place to get away from their trauma, which can be sexual content too. While I’m alright with things like harnesses and briefs and what whatnot on a fursuit I’d elect to leave the room if i saw another strap on like i did once at anthrocon (it was 4 pm not exactly a night time crowd yet)
I guess it boils down to ensuring the safety and comfort of attendees, a costume is a costume. we see cartoon animals in swimsuits and underwear under innocuous circumstances but the literal kink gear has got to be behind closed doors, e want everyone to feel welcomed
An abuser and sexual content are not the same. So why is there a comparison being made? People were (and still are) uncomfortable with women in their spaces as they weren't seen as equal by men plus some abusers are women. So if you boiled it down, your argument is "if certain people feel uncomfortable, then certain people must leave" which isn't inherently bad but is inherently not a space for everyone to keep welcomed. That's the point of hiding people in their rooms or making laws that restrict people expression like I mentioned in the video. Do you have a better example of harm than "acknowledging sex exists is bad"
@@PureKoorwhile i recognize NSFW is ok. It is not in child friendly places at 4PM when those children are likely to be there at that time.
The time of day and the location were important in my statement.
It has nothing to do with interests or identity it has everything to do with not exposing fetishes to underage children and sensitive persons (the reason we cant walk naked in public)
Im ok with revealing clothing, as long as the genitals aren’t exposed. Same goes for fursuits, i do not think it is appropriate to wear a dildo around children and the general public for the same reason.
@@PureKooralso likening not being able to flash people publicly to sexism/bigotry is a WILD take to be having here just saying.
Im not oppressing you in any way by asking you not to show me your genitals. There are appropriate spaces to do so (even in public feeling areas for those that want to sate that fetish interest)
Thats like saying judging predators for grooming kids is bigotry because they cant help what they’re attracted to. Its still illegal!! And its not some wishy washy illegal that makes white power stay on top or the patriarchy run like an oiled machine, its just respect of our fellow man and woman thats it. Its caring that they are going to shake and cry or be irreparably mentally scarred in some cases traumatized (genuinely not some bigot claiming they’re traumatized by black people in their grocery stores kinds of ‘triggered’ since you felt like taking it to a Politically correct place the first time i have to elaborate that i do not mean such flimsy reactionary bs every time i make a point about trauma now.)
@@PureKoorand by exposing your genitals youre making the people uncomfortable with that leave instead! Youre excluding them instead! 18+ con spaces exist, use them for that purpose instead
@@xXIronPeachesXx You didn't actually give a reason. You're assuming an answer then not explaining why. That logic is what my video is directly addressing. Can you actually give a direct reason why NSFW at 4PM in a child friendly place is bad? There's definitely reasons but can /you/ give the direct reasons why this is bad. Cause you mentioned safety and comfort originally even though there are places that are safe and comfortable with pretty public displays of NSFW (again, some of which is mentioned in the video)
I have an interesting opinion about the whole "NSFW in public" thing. People will scream that a thing is "not safe around kids" while pointing at the thing and calling attention to it. Those kids, 95% of the time, will not even recognize that the thing is harmful. They won't do so with big boobie horse until people tell them to.
The people who sugar coat often are the ones that create the harmful situations. Your example of telling a child their dog went upstate to live somewhere else can lead to a harmful situation where the child believes they might see the dog again. It is best to just be completely honest. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. They will know something is off. They will figure it all out. Simply put, let kids learn and make their own decisions.
Don't put them in a room with strippers & convicted sex offenders.
@MrRAGE-md5rj This is clearly bait but I'll bite. Unless a person openly declares they're either of these things, or someone else who knows points it out, the kids still would not know. Now yes, it's bad for kids to be around sex offenders but strippers? Especially strippers who aren't currently stripping?
Again, the kids wouldn't even know until you point and yell that there's a stripper in the room. You're creating a problem where none exist. That person who is currently fully clothed is doing nothing wrong.
@@MrRAGE-md5rj For some reason, both of this seems to happen with those, who shout the loudest about "protecting kids from perversions"
@@arvurebantra7639 That too. Being a stripped isn't some sort of a "you are now branded" thing. A stripper... simply doesn't do stripping around kids?
Ig the baiter meant stippers who are doing stripping near kids or smth... or maybe they think working as a stripper is as bad as being a child m0l3ster. Never know with such types
@@Alex-cq1zr Perhaps, or they're one of those "furry is a fetish" people who think we're all sexual deviants of some kind and this person is probably likely to also assume we're zoophiles or something.
Regardless, as I said, most kids are probably not going to notice something is "bad" until told it's bad.
If you’re old enough to use the internet, find the furry fandom and go far enough that you actually know what convention you want to attend, you should be well aware by that point the nature of which some people enjoy self-expression and have fun at these cons. If you go back 20 years and look at old con footage, you’ll see fursuiters dressed up in latex, carrying whips and flogs, and plenty of “busty” suits. It’s nothing new, it’s been an important facet of furry con-space for decades now, and while it’s changed tremendously through the modernization of the internet and social media platforms - you should really know what you’re getting into at this point.
Theres going to be inflatables, busty and fat fursuits, pup-hoods and jockstraps. If you find this a breach of consent, or are worried about minors seeing stuff thats 10x lighter than anything they’ve already seen on the internet anyways, then there are plenty of SFW cons and furmeets that have rules put in place against kink-gear.
What really matters is specifically defining where the SFW/NSFW line is, what the con is willing to allow, and how that concerns the minor question. In all honesty, with the shit kids these days have to put up with, terrible stuff I dont even want to mention… a fursuit with some large bazongas should be the least of anyone’s worry.
Do I think minors should be allowed at furry conventions in general? No, not really. If you’re a parent, I think youll get a lot more fulfillment out of taking your kid to your state or city’s local anime/cosplay convention, there’s plenty of fun activities, internet stuff, and usually they’re way more catered towards the teen-young adult demographic. Will that ever stop young furries from attending conventions that are advertised as “all-ages”? No, of course not. I dont know every kid, or every parent, Idk what you’re comfortable with, and if you feel safe to let your kid experience a furry con, that’s great. If you look a little deeper, almost all the people complaining about “fetish gear” on Twitter are also adults- that’s not to discredit any uncomfortable experiences minors might be having, but it’s like… You’re the adult paying to be here and supporting this convention that knows and allows what you are uncomfortable with, if Im not mistaken MFF has always had a bit of a reputation for being a raunchier con-space, so why even attend? Why not volunteer on staff and try to make a difference? Why not formally complain through available contact directly to the convention organizers?
At the end of the day, it always comes back to who’s complaint on furry Twitter gets the most attention, and we end up talking about it for a couple weeks with no real conclusion, rinse and repeat. Gotta love it xD hopefully this time cons actually address where they stand on the NSFW policy, you either are or you arent, graying the line between the two for the sake of creating an environment for “everyone” is just going to make more and more con-goers leave feeling unsatisfied.
i mean if a teen wants to attend a furry convention its mostly more because of the furries than it being a convention
@@flopjul3022 right, but they can still be a furry and experience a convention space without having to specifically go to a furry con. Idk if youve ever been to an anime convention, but there’s usually a handful of furries and furmeets happening at or around them, so they can be an easy “first step” for young furries who are just getting into conventions and stuff
I can't fairly answer at what point sugar coating is no longer good because I had someone very close to me die when I was very young. Pretty hard to sweep the harsh truths under the rug after that, but generally speaking, I think there's a slow ramp of acknowledging it and explaining it and then confronting it that should ideally take place. The problem being that we really don't get to choose when we confront certain things, it just kinda happens. I suppose I kinda think lying about it is never really a good idea, but the level of explanation involved may be altered based on how much they've already been through. Age is ironically a poor indicator for maturity. It's just the only metric we really have without actually knowing someone.
I find sugarcoating useful early on in life, but 8-10 being a cut off for more direct usually helps. Whole age does matter, kids being exposed to some things definitely needs to stay later in life if possible.
In terms of the wearing stuff, while it makes me uncomfortable, I don’t mind it as long as they aren’t showing the bits. While some definitely border that part or showing waaaaay to much. It’s definitely a more complicated matter that is a thing of what would you want to show children and others in general. I personally think it’s important to remember that not everyone wants to see that stuff and while you can dress like it, it’s good to limit how far you go into it because to far and it can be borderline public indecency which is a whole other can of worms.
I would still ask where the harm is given the video is opening that can of worms a bit. Public indecency not long ago was people of different races being in a relationship. Nowadays we would criticize that belief but within my life time people could be vocal in their anti-interracial couples belief and have no consequences befall them. Why do people not want to see that stuff and is their disgust correctly place?
It’s over when you hug someone at a con and you hear crinkling as they walk away 😢
Medical conditions do require people to wear diapers if that's what your referring to. For pleasure it's also whatever so long as it's sanitary
you know a furry generally isnt wearing diapers bc of medical conditions man..@@PureKoor
@@Hiiragi1313 I did write 2 sentences
it’s not so much about safety as it is about people feeling comfortable. completely ignoring the presence of minors, there are plenty of adults who don’t necessarily want to be made aware and reminded of what some attendees of a con do when they return to their rooms. that’s not to say that people should be ashamed of what they do in privacy. but there are people - many people - who believe that things that deal in matters of intimacy should be kept… well… intimate. not just left in the open for everyone in the surrounding area to be forced to think about
i agree, people wearing pup hoods doesn’t harm anyone. but it may make some uncomfortable. and, just as there is no harm done in wearing pup hoods, there’s also no harm in NOT wearing pup hoods, for the sake of other attendees’ comfort
at the end of the day, cons, during most hours, are intended to be a safe, comfortable, enjoyable space for everyone who wishes to attend. also, the people wearing the gear aren’t losing any sense of comfortability in having to not wear the masks in common areas. why does it matter if people are uncomfortable with it because of traditionalist ideals that stem from previous oppressions? it’s not like the people who feel these things are actively wishing to imprison women who show a bit of lower thigh at a beach
people shouldn’t be forced to dissect every urge, idea, feeling, and emotion they feel towards their environment, and scrutinize themselves for potentially having ideas of modesty that stem from oppressions committed a century ago by past generations. If someone is made uncomfortable by something you are doing or wearing, and you don’t lose anything by respecting a their feelings, and acting in a way that makes them more comfortable, then why should you continue to persist in doing the thing that’s making them uncomfortable?
you lose nothing by respecting their boundaries, and one of the most important parts of being a human who interacts with other humans is to do your best to make sure no one is needlessly suffering or having a bad time, thanks to something that could be easily remedied
also not sure why you made that out-of-the-blue shot at curcumcision. it’s not mutilation, it seldom has adverse affects, so long as the procedure isn’t botched. it tends to make cleanliness around that region easier to maintain anyways. it’s also done for several religious and cultural reasons. and it ain’t hurting anyone. not sure why you seem to have something do harshly against it to the point that you refer to it as mutilation.
People use to feel uncomfortable when women wore shorts or when PoC existed around them. Being uncomfortable is not a good argument here because that discomfort is restricting people's ability to do actions while also shaming said actions. People do clearly find friends, gain confidence, and can look neat wearing those masks. Losing those masks can be a real determent to people's social connections. At a place where people are wearing thousands dollars worth of carpet oven, a silly mask should be fine.
Your argument doesn't actually contradict what I said and in fact sounds silly to someone like me knowing that a fursuit was seen as a sexual object when I entered the fandom similar to the puphood. The respect your assuming here is one of compliance not of mutual understanding which is true respect. Pushing a boundary is not inherently wrong (again, women wearing shorts or PoC existing in white spaces was also boundary pushing in which people argued was bad because it broke civil norms)
I mentioned circumcision because of it's relevancy to normalized harm we don't see as harm. The history of why the USA does it so much is quite dark and is very much harming a lot of people needlessly. If you're being good faith and would actually like to learn more, watch this video by knowing better. It's long because it's a lot
ruclips.net/video/0ens0WjAyOc/видео.html
@@PureKoor cool! thanks
edit: sorry for the short response, i just didn’t have much to say. thanks for takin the time to respond to me. i value your point of view. you seem like an intelligent guy. i might check out the video you linked. love your vids too :D
about 6 years seens good enought to learn about death. Whenever the kid ask is great too. I allways noticed kids movies from japan usually deal a lot more with death then anything american that avoids it like death itself. Long was the time when Disney actually killed its villains, or even had em.
I think its the easyer way to check diferent culture diferent NSFW rules is comparing these.
I think a really huge point that needs to be made is the fact that consent doesnt only apply to the act of sexual intercourse, but also consent to viewing or witnessing sexual activity. Its why its a crime to expose yourself in public, even if you arent touching anyone, people didnt give you their consent to seeing that stuff. And a lot of people do feel uncomfortable when they see fetish stuff without their consent. Going into an 18+ adults only area is giving consent to seeing these adult things if its specified that this adult place allows it. People who are going into a family friendly place are not all consenting to seeing fetish stuff. It does make adults uncomfortable too. And for some reason, way too many people get treated like shit for being uncomfortable, as if consent doesnt matter when touching isnt involved. Theres a reason HR protects people from more than just being touched without permission when you're at work. And it seems like only the ace community in the fandom can really agree with me on this stuff
I also want to add that just because something is or isnt law, doesnt mean people are okay with it. For example, the age of consent is 16 in my state but my grown ass man coworker still got fired for flirting with a 16 year old and nobody at work respects him anymore, and we all find him disgusting. Before laws protecting women from r*pe existed, a lot of people were not okay with it, but people were often naive back then and didnt assume they needed to make shit into a law because they assumed it wouldnt be a problem. I heard TONS of stories from old men who personally beat the shit out of creeps when they were young. Another example is how beastiality laws are fairly recent due to the fact that most ppl just didnt assume it needed to be made into a law, they just assumed people wouldnt do it. Usually the townspeople would get together and personally off the person who r*ped a woman, it was never considered SFW in America at least
Hello, I'm part of the ace community and I disagree! I mention the question at the end because the knowledge of something happening and the discomfort from it doesn't inherently mean you get to hide it away, because ultimately that's more harmful in the end for reasons I'll explain in a future video! If you can directly tell me what the harms for a puphood then list them out cause my department got HR'd once for being vocal about poor working conditions (aka, HR is there to protect the company's image not the workers)
Also for sure laws and morals are separate systems that only sometimes overlap. Breaking age of consent is physically harmful for younger person who tend to be less experience or physically weaker aka there's harm. People weren't naive back in the day about abuse, the head of household gained power by forcing their will through physical and psychological trauma. Given people made laws against silly things faster than a woman's autonomy, calling people naive is disregarding the amount of cruelty people were fine with so long as it didn't directly affect them. Expecting everyone to get personal revenge isn't possible nor good lol. The anti diddling of dogs laws are not recently everywhere, because people did know it happened, so laws have been around for longer than recent. If you were in a town that wasn't ok with it ya, but that was not every town and again, silly laws were made before enshrining rights like not abusing people. I mentioned the 13th amendment's loophole but foundationally it's still an AMENDMENT because the original constitution was a compromise for slave owners which everyone knew about.
And in my country furries are generally prohibited, because all furries are or support/respect LGBT people, and this is prohibited in my country
:c that sucks
Personally, while you are not showing your pivates or doing anything indecent, I dont care what you are doing or wearing or anything, even when I was a minor I already thought like that.
But IDK that's just me and my "unsupervised child with free internet access" mindset talking (and I mention this because I might have been desensitised to NSFW things, even the most weird ones)
I draw the line on Pup-Hoods and harnesses in public.
Would you like to explain why
@@PureKoor Well Pup-hoods is straight up S&M puppy-play fetish gear, ain't no arguing about it, people can have that in private areas and areas where only Furries are attending conventions but not out in the open outside or in the convention area + I've seen those egregiously embarrassing videos of those fetishists on all 4's barking in public and at pride events, like, this is breaking the limit.
Harnesses I tolerate to a extent and are far less egregious but I'd *prefer* that be kept to private areas (and I have a fursuiter friend that wears a harness).
@@PureKoor Wait, I responded and my comment's not showing up.
@@SynthLizard8 It's not in my review tab so I'm unsure what happened there
@@PureKoor (Odd, I checked my comment history and it was there so I guess I'll repost)
Well Pup-hoods is straight up S&M puppy-play fetish gear, ain't no arguing about it, people can have that in private areas and areas where only Furries are attending conventions but not out in the open outside or in the convention area + I've seen those egregiously embarrassing videos of those fetishists on all 4's barking in public and at pride events, like, this is breaking the limit.
Harnesses I tolerate to a extent and are far less egregious but I'd prefer that be kept to private areas (and I have a fursuiter friend that wears a harness).
I wouldn't be a Playboy at a bus stop or in a park.
Best to keep kinks to private settings. Better to keep things palatable for all audiences.
Regarding top less, this is not a problem in Brazil.
There are well-defined places for practice, including nudism, and there have never been any problems, except for the prudish people insisting on being where they feel offended. And there are still those who want to practice topless in inappropriate places. Overall, it's a matter of common sense and social decorum that we all know how to apply when we want.
Please refer to the topless/interracial arguments again
I honestly relate. As an asexual furry, I genuinely feel uncomfortable when I see nsfw content. And I also feel like children should definitely not be in the question when talking about nsfw themes until they are mature enough to know.
1) I am part of the ace spectrum too and am not uncomfortable. People see asexual as being sex repulsed due to many going "I'm ace and don't like nsfw" so if you mention that during this specfic discussion, you're identity will be weaponized into an excuse, not really an exploration into how to fix the issue.
2) I'm really unsure if you've watched the video or not given the topic is asking "why is something nsfw". Let me know if you've watched it
if something is specifically used for sexual purposes it should not be allowed in public. women being shirtless isnt nsfw because breasts are specifically designed to feed babies but they have been wrongly sexualized. fetish gear and other stuff is specifically designed for sexual purposes. that should always be separate from children. have an 18+ section or 18+ con away from kids if you wanna bring things that are inherently sexual. its the same argument with "should kink be allowed at pride". if its an all ages event, no.
How is a piece of clothing "inherently" sexual and can you explain the harm in direct logical order how a latex suit from far away harms kids
@@PureKoor its inherently sexual if its used and designed specifically for sexual things. and in the moment there may not be direct harm but its just the principle of keeping sexual things away from kids. you have the option to just not be kinky around children and the fact that its even up for debate is shocking. a child may not know what a strap is or be harmed by one but im not gonna wave it around for kids to see because of the fact that its sexual in nature and kids dont need to see it.
You really need to watch the video to the end there bud
@@PureKoor i did bud. sexual things and kids should never be in the same room.
The whole point of the video is asking why things are seen as sexual and why sexuality is bad to acknowledge to exist. The question at the end will relate to a future video where I directly show why you're a silly billy
I'm not sure how this ended up on my fyp, but I have to say I like how you ask questions that require critical thinking. Because the debate on SFW/NSFW isn't as easily answered as "why is the sky blue", everyone's thoughts and opinions vary on where SFW/NSFW should and should not be present. Even classifying what is SFW/NSFW varies too, while I believe most of us can agree NSFW is anything deemed "scandalous" or "skimpy", that also brings up the whole swimsuit and shorts debate. How swimsuits too revealing and shorts not long enough were often /also/ deemed "scandalous" or "skimpy" in the past - and even now. It's really fascinating to think about.
And on the question you asked at the end, children deserve honesty. Once children start asking more mature questions, they should receive a honest, and a clear, concise, answer. Not one that covers up the truth. Sugarcoating and lying - even lying by omission - can harm and damage any trust a child has in you as a parent or a trusted adult.
I wish my parents didn't sugarcoat everything when I was a kid, including loss and grief (which I now handle poorly and is something I am working on). Looking back when I was ten/eleven, I could've handled "the talk". They told me (and my sibling) nothing about "growing up" when I asked, only relying on what the school told me and tossing me one of the books that was really dumbed down. Everything I know about things classified as adult and mature themes was through peers and things I came across on the internet.
I never worked up an courage to ask adults anything (especially in my teenage years) because I didn't want to hear gentle words, I wanted a straight answer that people seemed to think was "too grown up" (which /really/ came across as "too un-ladylike") for me. They felt that they were in the right for controlling what information I was and wasn't given. They were my "filter" when I was under their roof. And it got to the point where I never felt close enough to them to ask anymore.
Anyways, sorry for rambling and if got a bit too personal for anyone's comfort. That's just a light overview of how I see things as of currently. I'm curious about everyone else's opinion and response, so, off to the comments I go. This was an interesting introduction to your channel, definitely subbing.
Glad you like my video a lot and thanks for sharing your story n' opinion :3
I'll bite. I admit I've been VERY on the side of "fetish gear regardless of it's current use is never okay in public spaces"
You mention explaining the uses or purposes of these things, because yes, with my current understanding: Pup hoods really do make me uncomfortable when I see them. I often wonder, considering they are about as pricey as a fursuit head and to me look 1000 times worse than even an early maker's fursuit head, I often wondered the appeal to wearing them at all especially in public.
So, I'd just like to understand why they're desirable in general, and why they'd be considered sfw, because again, to me, puphoods, fursuits with bulging crotches or nipples, fursuits wearing nothing but undies instead of regular clothes, and fursuits wearing fetish harnesses/gear are not safe for public spaces.
Please, my head is spinning.
OK first... Sorry for my weird english. Im not native and a bit rusty.
Why are they desireable:
People love to rollplay, they love to get out of their grim life and akt like a silly guy in a fursuit or a Dog. Hiding your face whit a mask that fits the thing you are RPing as is an essencial part of it. Its really more about the immersion than the vanity.
The NSFW Parts:
Yes. I agree. It also can be used as a fetish. I agree They sometimes do show of nipples and they sometimes do show of bulges.
I can assure you tho. It isnt allways about the fetish. There are Pupplay meetups just to akt like a silly dog whit no lewds in sight and all they do is to assume the position of a dog. I know. Its sounds weird, but they are having fun and i really cant blame them for wanting to escape their gray and boring lifes just for a few hours.
Also just noticed that its sfw to walk around whitout a top and a tight swimslip, but as soon as you wair a pup mask it gets nsfw. Kinda ironic. Its funny.
Ya I can explain a bit more. To start, puphoods are $16 on amazon while fursuit heads are a minium $50 in materials alone if you make it yourself. Hoods can be much MUCH more expensive but it is very cheap to get into for the point of the hood is multifaceted. One of the wholesome reasons is that by hiding your identity, you can be more honest and silly. Men in society are taught to be "emotionless" and "strong", so by symbolizing a removal of that obligation, they can have an easier time communicating to others. This can also go into them being less clothed, removing societal shames and being comfortable accepting oneself fully. This for sure leads to naughty times but many just want to feel comfortable with themselves/their bodies around others who too are comfortable with themselves/vocally empathic.
In the USA the human body is so scrutinized, one of the worse outcomes being women viewed ONLY as objects of desire, but we all feel that shame to different degrees. That's why saying "hey this thing is fetish gear is a sin and you should feel shame showing this in public cause your gross morals will harm society" isn't a great side to be on. The human body shouldn't be viewed as inherently nsfw when all of us are stuck inside bodies 24/7 and are NOT 24/7 naughty. The idea that people are comfortable acknowledging they get laid is also weird when you think about it for a bit. Like a normal human activity is seen as gross and bad? (Unironically this is due to some really harmful historical movements, including history like USA slavery, which we keep alive today). And our societal roles making it hard to connect with others is why subcultures pop up. So people feel safe just existing as themselves just want friends to be with.
To give another perspective, a lot of people in business suits have destroyed countries, hired children into meat factories, have advocated for PoC to be at the back of the bus, yet business suits are not only safe for the public but encouraged as high class. Objectively those in a tux have done more harm then a few bad actors wearing a harness. So why is one, again, related to high/middle class aspirations and one is harmful just by acknowledging its existence.
It's really not the clothing that's nsfw, it's not even the actions that's nsfw, it's our views on what we deem to be acceptable in a society build by those no longer with us/are really old. The people who forced us into a civil war to free people telling us through oral tradition that we're bad for liking a puphood is really silly. Those dude had whips to harm enslaved children/mothers/fathers while the BDSM person is giving pleasure to a consenting adult. I can keep going with how our views of what's sfw and what's nsfw are really warped but ultimately you gotta ask yourself the WHYs here. Why is viewing a body harmful? Why is a puphood harmful? etc. Is it actually harm or is it just learned disgust? There's a high chance it's learned disgust which people tend to not want to deal with because that implies their world view has harmed people or those they trusted were wrong
I suggest watching USA history from www.youtube.com/@KnowingBetter
It helps show were a lot of our negative traditions in detail!
Considering I make a living off of drawing specific art and how desensitized to nsfw I've become, I did find it odd that seeing fetish gear irl would turn my head, and I think your later statements ring true, it's somethin I think I ended up "learning" somewhere down the line. It'll be hard to shake off this concept that they should be "Ashamed" when I don't exactly know the "Why's" for either side of the argument. Though I'll be the first to come out and say I am the farthest thing from the puritanical mindset, or that I'd clutch my pearls and cry out "What about the children!!" when I'm all for the liberation of our bodies and that sexy stuff should be about as normalized as graphic violence is on tv. Both aren't exactly something you'd want your kids watching until they're older and yet-- One is seen as totally okay while the other makes everyone go nuts. I'll give that link a look. Thank you for responding, and so quickly too.@@PureKoor
@@PureKoorThis comment helped me understand the video better. Thanks.
I frankly feel the same way. Also it's one thing to know this is a fetish gear that some furries have but pup gear in of itself is not furry. And they don't appear unique or cute or sexy to me. It reminds me of really old fur suits from the 80s where someone's eyes peer through the eye holes through the fur suit head. I also have a problem with moral relativism as it seems like an attempt to gaslight and confuse or manipulate or guilt trip others into not having standards when really they are allowed to not like something. It's what they do with those negative emotions that matters. Even if it's a matter worth reporting due to inappropriate behavior they should not take that matter into their own hands to harass others for what they do not like. If I say I like hotdogs and someone else says they don't like hotdogs I'm not gonna go on a activist rant and tell them oh your conditioned by society to not like hot dogs or your miss informed about hot dogs and never had a good hot dog. My response actually would be like.. ok. That's cool man. No problem. The things people don't like carry just as much weight as the things they do like. People will be free to change their own mind based on their own cognitive liberty. I'm not gonna cram a bunch of information down their throat about it. Also what happened to children being children and doing innocent things? When I was a kid I wasn't exposed to all this and even now that I am as an adult I still turned out fine. Kids don't need to be overstimulated by all this visual stuff and information including all the stuff they get exposed to online that they can't do anything with anyway. But in the end. I'd just rather not have minors at a con at all. Also side note some people are just too hellbent on trying to change other people minds on something they don't like. I don't exist to make people like furries or fetish gear. Everyone has their valid grievances.
In regards to the death question: I think that "the farm upstate" isn't a necessary thing at all, there are ways to talk to children about something as serious as death without needing a magic lie. OF COURSE, a conversation about death with a child is going to look very different than one with a teenager or adult, but you can still directly confront the concept without having to lie to the child, it's just going to be slower and with a different approach and framework.
I've rewatched this like twice since it went over my head the first time but I think i get your point.
Your point is that before enforcing laws which may potentially harm self-expression in the fandom, we should make sure that its a law that actually fixes problems.
When we're dealing with the pup-hood example, the general public believes that children should not be exposed to pup-hoods due to its sexual context.
However, you believe that there isn't a problem with pup-hoods because its sexual context doesn't exist for children. Is that correct?
Also, as for the question at the end of the video, I think an appropriate time to stop sugar-coating to children is when they hit puberty, as that's when I feel like their childhood innocence can't be protected anymore and they're considered mature enough to handle real-life situations. As someone who has never been exposed to walks of life other than conservative Christianity, I really love your content, it's very insightful.😅
Ya, although I do think it's ok to acknowledge the sexual context because 1) people who understand what's going on can be more aware of ways to protect themselves and 2) hiding away a topic doesn't solve the underlying problems, it just pushes the problem out of sight then harms people needlessly. Kids only know a pup-hood is sexual if another tells them it's usage. Given we tell kids about war in kid appropriate ways and they're fine, this can be done for puphoods too while again, actually protecting the children and still allowing adults to have free expression. Cause "innocence" is just forced ignorance we deem as "normal" but "normal" is not inherently just/good
I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
This is a well thought out argument presented very well. Much respect, you've earned a subscriber.
Glad you likes the video that much!
I was understanding kids now see nsfw at primary school on phones etc .
I have worn harnesses at our local Furry con and so have others, in fact it’s in the rules you are allowed to, also pup muzzles etc. That is at the largest Furry con in Australia. Saying that, you do something wrong or against the rules you are thrown out immediately, it is also 18+ only in the sense you are over 18, not in a sexual way .Maybe have a Furry convention where NSFW is banned totally, also have a convention where NSFW is ok and the different Furries to go to the one they like or even both .
Most people: serious discussion about topic at hand
Me: belly
With regards to the sugarcoating, I personally think that it should only go up to 12 at the latest. With regards to animals, pets, or people/relatives dying. It's something that can be difficult to understand, and difficult to process, which is also why it is important how exactly you stop sugarcoating. I, as a ~17.6 year old minor, Don't have the experience to say how is best, but I know that people can be very sensitive, and that a lot of things need to be addressed very carefully. (This will likely need to be done sooner if a pet/friend/relative dies, if the child is old enough to have memories of them)
Take anything I say with a spoon full of salt, but I think that just encouraging questions and answering them honestly is probably one of the best ways to handle things. The caveat being, making sure the child actually understands what is being told to them. Like, no matter how much you explain it, a 5 year old is probably not going to understand what death is.
...And yeah, some questions may need to be pushed back a bit, like the topic of reproduction. It's not at all my place to say, but (hypothetically) if I ever had a kid(s) I wouldn't want to explain how reproduction works before like.. well, puberty, I guess. At that point, there's gonna have to be a lot of care and carefulness being put into guiding a kid through that, and they're going to have questions. I would prefer if I where the one they asked the questions to. Any trusted source is ok, really, the main thing that I would care about at the end of the day is making sure that they would be able to tell when something was and wasn't a good idea, and that they have someone they can trust to talk to about their problems.
Side note that isn't really important; I think keeping kids ignorant of any of the "adult" topics after the age of 16 is completely absurd. It's much better that they know what's going on and that they are able to make informed decisions, as opposed to the alternative.
But again, I'm only 17, hardly out of puberty myself, and my brain works completely differently from everyone else (evidenced by my life and confirmed by an ASD diagnosis). It's not my place to talk, but I'm giving my current thoughts on the matter.
Things are just complicated. Nearly every problem is nuanced, and has a million decisions. There is no "right" decision, only good ones, bad ones, and useless ones. (+-0 pos/neg)
On a (not really but kindof) completely different note, Excellent video!
...I don't really know what else to say, I am not very good at giving in depth compliments. Just a good video overall, I guess is all I can say.
Thank you for like my video and giving your opinion! :3
I think that pup hoods and furries in general are pretty separate and this topic kinda just brings out the issue of not having enough spaces segregating the two. I can agree its harmless but if someone wishes to go to a furry convention, an inherently different hobby than pup, they should be given the choice to choose between a con with versus without them, and have those spaces stay separate.
Many pups are furries cause of the whole anthro interest... and latex is def within the furry realms. So unsure why we're gonna advocate for segregation here.
@@PureKoor It may be related but separate. You can be both into that and not be a furry which is why it should be separate.
Pup hoods and bondage/kink gear are for the bedroom and no where else. I do not find this expectation to be prudish or oppressive in any way at all. It’s simple public decency and common sense. Not all restrictions upon the self are bad.
As for the comparison to when is it okay to be topless, gas stations figured this out years ago. “No shirt, no shoes, no service.”
Not sure what Common Sense by Thomas Paine has to do with puphoods but the real question is: Why. You're saying what /should/ be but not /why/ it should be. Why does a shirt or shoes determine service?
@@PureKoor Some common ground is required to have that discussion I feel, so to see if we have some on this subject I’ll ask an additional question in turn: should folks be permitted to just walk around completely naked in public spaces?
@@TheNightWatcher1385 depends on the public space. Most times you don’t want people to be completely naked the same way you don’t want people to shake hands as a greeting. It’s easier for diseases to be passed along without the protection of clothing. In certain spaces such as folks who regularly wash their hands, shaking hands is overall fine. Outdoor places like beaches or mountains tend to be fine for public nudity due to space. I think you should have arguments to restrict nudity not default to people must wear the snow day 5 layer coat special
@@PureKoor It’s not about sanitation, it’s about decency. If we do not both possess that innate sense then I have doubts that we can have a productive conversation on this issue. But I shall attempt to do so in good faith.
Public nudity tends to not be tolerated in public spaces as nudity is heavily associated with intimacy and vulnerability, often of a sexual nature. That level of vulnerability is considered by most to be something reserved for one’s intimate partner, not for the masses. Plus, being nude in public spaces forces others to witness such a display, so it can be argued that issues surrounding consent are also at play in such a situation.
You are correct in that different spaces tend to have different levels of what is considered decent or not. For example, pools, beaches, locker rooms, private property, remote locations, emergency situations, sacred spaces, bedrooms, etc. and that’s another reason why public displays of sexuality in a hotel’s con space are a violation in mine and so many other’s eyes, because the display does not fit the rules of the space. It crosses a line and forces others to be uncomfortable who are made to witness it.
Sexuality is one of the most powerful aspects of human nature and is something that evokes strong innate emotions in most people. Sex in principle is also an inherently dangerous activity when it is allowed to control one’s actions as it has the potential to tremendously influence a person’s inner emotions, has the potential to create new life, and has the potential to spread disease. This is why for much of human history it has been seen as something to be regulated and reserved for its proper place and time and has been considered irresponsible to just let it roam, so to speak. Where this line is does shift over time, but every culture agrees that the line does exist somewhere.
I think you'd find this video to be interesting as well as having explanation of where our current line was made (and why it's not great) ruclips.net/video/0ens0WjAyOc/видео.html
Cons need to be upfront about what attendees might see. Further Confusion allows minors but it wasn't made abundantly clear that the kids would see people flaunting fetish gear and bare skin, and behaving "playfully." So either make this clear so folks know what to expect and can decide to attend or not, OR have space and/or time slots that separate minors and those into NSFW hobbies.
Watch the video
@@PureKoor I watched the whole video before making my comment.
9
Your comment misses the discussion of the video so that's why I said that
@@PureKoor you reply to my comment was rude and dismissive. I didn't MISS the discussion. I just disagree with some points within it. Your sly, one-sided presentation doesn't fool me.
If Mufasa can properly teach little Simba about the circle of life, we can do it too.
The truth about anything is always the right thing to do, but there is also a propper way of delivering the message / answer to their quiestions acording to their age.
Is sort of like always telling the truth, but you can leave out some facts or aspects about it depending on their age / level of understanding of the world.
I would recomend to see the movie Captain Fantastic as an example that illustrates some angles of this disscussion.
(where I stand on this, I could write a few pages about it haha)
This reminds me of the phrase I read somewhere "A naked body is NOT sexual. Sex is also natural. People can´t seemed to handle life"
Given the move's "circle of life" was about bloodline hierarchies made by the nation who were still arguing about racial segregation based on inherent traits. Wasn't a great lesson to teach, even if the movie is fun
But ya, thanks for sharing your thoughts
@@PureKoor sorry...what? ...I dunno about that, Im from southamerica. Didnt get any of that when I saw the movie.
I was only thinking about the part when Mufasa tells him that when they die their bodies feed the grass, and the antilope eats grass. (Soft but honest way of talking about death with your son)
...nothing more than that. XD
Ah, ya that's fair. I tend to see the circle of life argument elsewhere and assumed incorrectly about its relation to this topic haha. But ya the movie is about blood kings needing to rule. Else the wrong king will destroy the kingdom
Hmmm.... it's hard to pick an age. It's more about their education and how they were brought up. Chances are by like 2nd grade they've probably already been taught about the concept of death, if not applied that learning to their own life that they and all they know will one day die. It's a hard answer because even some adults have trouble coping with this concept, so they tell themselves stories that aren't really true in any measurable sense but help them feel better (which isn't nothing) about the love they had left to give to that person but now never will.
At the very least, I don't think not explaining the concept of death is "sparing their innocence" because I don't think knowing about death necessarily ruins it. I think it could send the lesson early on that life is temporary and we should love each other as much as we can while we have each other, but it's also possible you could create a little nihilist, just depends where they are in their development. Personally, I think the reason we don't explain it is less for "won't somebody please think of the children" and moreso the fact that death makes US uncomfortable. I don't know, I think they should at least know about the concept of doing things for the sake of others rather than just yourself and have internalized that concept before they learn about death to avoid a little bit of that nihilism.
BUT to stay within the bounds of the question...... I'd say 6 or 7?
Great video Koor. I got my own thoughts about where the harm comes from in "kink in public" but I also got a few things to sort through on that front! Thanks for getting the ball rolling!
What you said is fairly close to what I believe actually haha. I'm glad you liked the video :3
@@PureKoor I did~ I even have my own spiel I'm working on in reference to it! Thank you again!
I personally think you shouldn't necessarily lie to children I just think you shouldn't purposely bring things up, what I mean by this is no do not bring things up to kids but if a kid ever found out about something or just thought of something and was like "hey mum and dad I came across/thought this what does this mean can you explain" is when you should start explaining things to them.
Children all "mature" in different ways and at different paces so I personally think it's whenever the child want's to know and learn (though I do think at a certain age if a kid hasn't come to you about anything you should purposely come and talk to them about whatever that is like at 14-15)
(forgive me if this is a bit messy or strange haha I'm tired writing this I might edit it some other time like in the morning)
You're all good! Thanks for sharing
A good question is “why have kids at a con in the first place?” We have so few places for adults and adults only anymore. Especially on the internet. Kids now have the ability and parents neglectful enough to allow them access into these spaces.
To answer the question about when we teach the kiddos about death? I’d say at the age of 10. Old enough not to be a baby and young enough to still have a healthy amount of childhood afterwards. Same with sex, teach the kid at 10 the bare basics and come back when they’re 16 for the more complicated stuff. That’s how it was done with me and I’m… fine.
Kids have time to explore a subject and given that's the years where they have space to learn their hobbies, kids should have the ability to go to cons just with supervision which is what cons do currently. Adults have more spaces than adults given adults have the money to actually participate in whatever activity they want (if they have the money but that's a whole other subject)
lol like at restaurants there's a bar side for 18+ there should be this at cons for people to still let them be theirselves 😂
I would refer you to the topless argument as to why that separation should be questioned before we actually do that
To the final question: I dunno, I don't like lying to children. I'm going to be gentler about *how* I phrase it than I would with a child, because understanding concepts like death (among many other things) can take a while, but if a kid asks me point-blank, I'm going to be as real with them as I can without being needlessly hurtful in the same way I would with a teenager or an adult. To put my cards on the table, I take the concept of youth liberation fairly seriously and think that children deserve the same respect that everyone else does, but I also recognise that how a child sees things and what their more limited experiences and developing brains allow them to understand is going to be different from the way an adult will, but it's also going to vary on an individual level because nobody is truly the same.
I don't find that death in its self should really be hidden at all. Younger kids (0-7) just don't really understand death as a concept. When they get older they figure out, it's a way of life, and then chances are they'll just move on. Other than that, the other NSFW subjects somewhat depend on the age, however I don't think kids should be getting to 18 (or whatever age of consent would be in other countries) and just finding out about sex, I think anything before 12 or 13 is too young (for them to learn about the FULL thing), however with the internet who knows when kids will find out about that kind of stuff
I perfectly understood death at the age of 5.
Hey man, that's fine, that is also kind of a different point that I didn't talk about, kids learn differently and are able to understand things at different ages than other kids @@timrosswood4259
@@timrosswood4259 my little brother does too, but I wish he didn't because he says weird stuff now...
I'm a strong supporter of banning NSFW/kink wear at cons, and i hate how defensive people in this fandom get over it. Had experiences like that at this year's Eurofurence, people wearing latex suits, pup gear, nothing but shorts and a harness etc. approached me, and i told them to leave me alone, that they make me very uncomfortable, and i got immediately called a snowflake, a puriteen, and other things. Seeing a fullsuiter wear a harness is okay, that's still part of thr fantasy part of the fandom, but seeing full on humans wear kink stuff in public and easily accessible places is just so gross. That stuff should only be allowed behind locked doors, don't care what you do or wear therr, just don't do it in public. Room parties, the Dealer's Den, or panels which specifically allow that kind of stuff, that would all be ok. What i really wish for is that the Furdances and rave panels at night also start to van that stuff, cause nothing mixes worse than kink furs, alcohol, and a bunch of other furs in yhe samd place. Really ruins the dance/rave experience if there's oversexualized kink stuff to be spotted everywhere on the dancefloor.
Watch the video
@@PureKoor ?? You dont think I have? Now what?
Yes, given the video makes the swimsuit modesty police, topless laws, and interracial marriage arguments. If by approached you mean they just came to say hi, I think the name calling is bad but so is the discomfort. If they were hitting on you then the name calling is super bad for it goes against consent rules which is the harm here. The rest of your statement though is just ignoring the arguments I gave in the video for example: Given fursuits and harnesses can still be used for the bedroom times just like a human, why is the human gross and not the fursuit? Especially since a decade ago normies saw fursuits as fetish gear and thought it was gross and vibe ruining as what you're directly describing now.
*edit: Like are you just giving an opinion here or are you discussing something from the video?
@@PureKoor I'm just giving an opinion based off of own bad-ish experiences. If I was arguing with something from the video I would have mention or quoted it. And with what you said considering the approaching me during the con, both happened, people full in fetish gear coming up to say hi and strike up conversation, but also approach in a flirty way especially during the furdances. The combination of allowing kinks plus alcohol is just a really bad one and kind of turns a lot of furs who just want to party and dance/vibe together or with others away, and it becomes a kink fest real quick. Just really a shame and annoying that nothing ever gets done about that, especially when paying so much money just to attend a con
@@VeroMaxis People are working towards making the con a better experience. Crowd control is a hard job but conops (generally) can help cause you can go talk to them. Sorry you experienced the flirting stuff. Those striking up a nice convo are fine though and the mere discomfort of gearing being present is what I was addressing in the video so the way you phrased your statement made it seem like you didn't watch said video. Kink fest is fine so long as there isn't harm, exposure in it of itself isn't harmful. If you have points against the arguments I made in the video let me know!
Children have their whole lives to be adults, post 18, and if all of the controversy disappears if the kids are removed from the equation, the answer is pretty obvious - remove the kids from the conventions. Boohoo, they have to wait 2 or 3 years before they can show up. Some of us have been waiting our whole lives to be free in our space.
The controversy wouldn't disappear because many adults find things like puphoods to be objectionable in adult spaces. So the question needs to be focused around why people feel disgust towards these subjects and if it's actually to reduce harm or just personal discomfort that shouldn't affect another's freedom
@@PureKoor a fair enough point, though I think, right now, a lot of the hate and discourse is coming from within (as I'm sure you are painfully aware), and most of it is currently hinging on the "protect the kids" narrative, where we are losing the excellent points in your video. These are the same valid points that get brought up defending the public image of the queer community, though I think it all gets lost on us while we fight about what the right approach is, between hosting a "family friendly" conference over providing *the* space for us adults to be us. Great video, of course! Your content is amazing, as always!
ye! :3 and thanky
IMO "sugarcoating" is usually done to make things easier for the explainer than the person asking the question. Could be because they are embarrassed, and/or don't have a good explanation, or other reasons. This is 100% the case around sexuality where often adults are the ones who are scared and confused, while the children are open and curious. Rather than useful answers, it yields a cycle of social conditioning which treats sexuality as weird and embarrassing rather than normal. Taboo prevents education.
OTOH I have learned to be careful to learn who I am talking to, and try to give then answers that they will be able to understand. Trying to be the most accurate or comprehensive isn't always the best choice, it's better to meet people where they are at. Which is true at any age! There is no magic number where you know that their experience or maturity will be enough, it takes communication and sensitivity.
I'm a kid and I know all a dat😂 and I avoid it cause I just say in my head "it's just a bad dream IT'S JUST A BAD DREAM"
My parents never lied about my pets dying. Granted ny family is Christian so thete was a lot of talk of the pet going to heaven. Which may or may not be true.
I wouldn't tell my child that their pet was sent away in lieu of telling them that their pet died.
Okay... So you are saying better educating people is the way to go. I can get behind that. Heck, I'm all here for educating about rope and bondage gear even. It doesn't mean however that people should be casually wearing that stuff in public spaces, that gear is for activities that are purposefully provocative and behind closed doors. If my child isn't old enough to know about the "birds and the bees" then I definitely don't want them seeing latex suits.
Keeping kids ignorant about sex is how predators "educate" them into being groomed. Kids live in the world, not a bubble. They're not stupid, just inexperienced. So teach them about sex to 1) protect them from the bad people and 2) to not make them the excuse when other people use their autonomy to wear harmless things like clothing that cover's one whole body with shiny material which is WAY MORE COVERAGE then if you wear shorts and a t-shirt. Also just say sex, why does it need to be the "bird and the bees". That's silly.
Just found your channel, thanks for talking on this. Good stuff, instant subscribe! Nice to meetcha --Del Gryphon
Edited a typo
Thanks, glad you like my work!
i do not hate furrys i just hate the nsfw and sex involved videos, i very so agree with you
I hate seeing BDSM Gear. Especially on Pride Parades where this has no place.
Like I mentioned in the video, I'd ask what reasons you have for hating to see it and write that down in a pros/cons list
You realize you commenting boosts my video so it propagates more...right? So my "degen times" spread
@@PureKoorFYI I was just sharing my opinion regarding that Topic, not directing hate on you or your channel.
@@PureKoor Because I see BDSM Gear worn at Pride parades for example which is not a place to express your fetishes you commit to in Bed but a fight for rights and acceptance for the LGBTQ Community. Those people are like the Zoophiles in the Furry fandom. Ruining the image of the whole community.
@@protogen_1414You're all good. I was responding to another comment about the boosting thing. RUclips just doesn't put an @ when I respond in the creator thingy xD
I was really sheltered. Homeschooled, lived in a conservative country. Because of this when I was allowed free access online I was almost groomed into a relationship with older people. I had no context for grooming, dating, or relationship and the only sexual education I had was "Pp goes in and then baby" essentially. I wish I knew when I was 10, when i got my first period what was happening to me. Or when later i had a continuous period for almost two years that it was mt PCOS and not god cursing me for m*st*rb*ting. I know better now but it was really terrible.
Jump forward to now.
Now after I came out to my brother as trans he told me not to come out to his kids so they "don't get confused". My nephew is 8, my neice is 5 and younger nephew is 1. I came out to my brother 3 years ago. Maybe longer than that. I have no idea how long i should wait to come out. How long is he going to keep them in the dark? I think the 8y/o is really clever and would understand enough for me to come out. But obviously if he knows he'll tell his other siblings. I worry I'll have to wait 15 years until i can tell them. But by then I'll be filly transitioned and would have put it together.
I think we should not lie to children like we do. They're people like us. I think explaining basic concepts when they're 10 is probably a safe bet. But its hard for me to judge because i don't really remember anything before the age of 10.
Sorry this is so rambling.
How bout this? Make furry cons strictly for adults.
There's a lot of young furries and families do desire to go to cons so that can be done for some cons, it's definitely not a viable option for all cons. Also there's a desire for cons to move to 21+ so even the idea of who an adult should be at the con is coming into question haha
Very late to the party but I would not lie to my child (not that I plan on getting one) about death. I would have to find a way to explain it that is understandable for a child and won't traumatise them, but it was something I was never lied to about growing up even though I've had to see it a lot in my family and I'm grateful for it.
Not teaching minors about mature activities, expression, and identity from trusted adults is one of the largest contributers to the difficulty of convicting and identifying cases of grooming.
I am probably in a minority here but I feel that furry cons that allow non-sexual expressions of kink, and still allow children to be present, provide a great venue to teach kids and create networks of openness and communication with their caregivers (who have to be present anyways for the children to even be there) instead of leaving children open to learning on their own and in turn learning from actual awful people.
Just going to also tack onto this, to plead with the SFW only crowd, to stop bringing in asexuals as a crutch for your arguments. It does not help and greatly dismissesses aro/ace people who enjoy expressions of kink in completely non-sexual ways and ultimately erases their forms of self expression and bodily atonomy as if they are all some sex/kink repulsed monolith. It's very belittling.
Very true
Most of the fandom are adults, not really worth it to cater to kids when Disney exists. Megaplex was 18+ this year and a ton of people attended. So putting an age restriction on an event isn't the negative that puriteens seem to think it is.
Watch the video
I think 10-12 is a good time for that or a couple years after a pet has passed. Which ever is earlier.
...
I was about to post the above but realsing im not an expert I looked up and there was a guide of introduing children to the concept because it can happen at any age and sugarcoating it just confuses kids. There are however appropriate language and words to use depending on the age.
Honest answers are good! Thanks for sharing. Ya kids can be taught about the subject so long as you base it around their level of understanding of surrounding topics!
removing the sugar coating when you start being expected to interact with other people and kids, so by the time you'd hit kindergarden, might not just slap all the details and drip feed it, but they are already going to be around others and the world is a harsh place, not much reason to sugar coat anything after hitting that point since they are going to experience it one way or another.
I've noticed that certain paraphilias tend to follow each other. In time, I expect the ones that cluster around fertility boosting to become more commonly expressed in gene-modded humans.
In a less pure minded wording: Expect hypers, both furry and non-furry, to become domanant as we start to learn how to mess with the genome.
can we get this guy a bigger platform- like how do you have the most real takes yet dont have 10mil+ subs
Maybe one day haha. Hopefully I keep making cool videos people want to watch :3
Thank you for tackling this issue but I think your 20ies swimsuit and pup hood comparison is plain wrong. Just for the simple fact that swimsuits, especially back in the day, were usually not being used in an inherently sexual context. Pup hoods and pup gear in the year 2023 are used almost exclusively in a sexual context and are also seen as such by the general public. As much as you are trying to make a statement, people outside of the fandom will see pup hoods and pup gear as something nsfw.
Given there were institution that physically enforced modest politics which persist to the present day, some people did see the new fashion styles moving away from covering a lot of ones body as being inherently lustful in all context. That attitude changed to where swimsuits and normal revealing clothing was fine and even fashionable. Pup hoods/gear is used in wholesome ways which if people knew about would calm most of them down. Outsiders are not the main demographic of furry cons and given one of my points in the video is how interracial marriage is only within the decade been approved 94%, structuring ourselves around what "normal" people think is not the best idea. We should do what's good to do because it helps the most people. Understanding gear is not harmful to show off or acknowledge people do get laid is better for everyone same as removing the idea of modesty for clothing allowing women to wear pants
I've kinda been walking a fine line of thinking the fetish gear is more the sex part than the gear and while knowing what such gear is typically used for their not doing the kinky stuff in public that line of thinking always with out fail so far leads me to washing machines an their relation to military arms (id be specific but i actually cant remember time of typing)
Its of my personal opinion that sugarcoating is not the way to go.
There are ways to explain a topic so that children understand and are not presented with unnecessary details that will harm their inexperienced understanding of topics.
No need to lie, just teach it in a simpler way. If you dont know how, say that.
"I wouldnt know how to explain that to you right now, lets come back to this later ok?"
I believe kids have the same mental capacity as adults, not the same maturity, experience or grasp of complicated topics but we should teach with honesty and goodwill so that they develop as best as we can allow them too.
as soon as there able to understand the concept of death, they should know. sugarcoating the inevitable is not smart.
I think we as people just need to have good intentions instead of judging others by their appearance, or clothes. Weed out the people with bad intentions, weed out prejudice or hate within ourselves.
When I first started to get further into the fandom, I had not a clue what a puritan was. And yet, I was labeled one when calling out fetish art posted in a 13+ server. I did not get uncomfortable with this art for bad intentions, it wasn't because I didn't like the person who posted it. But it was one furry "zapping" another with some electrical contraption, and the other furry looked scared and dazed, while the shooting one looked angry. It was art that was just uncomfortable because the characters were uncomfortable, it could be seen as scary. It scared me when I saw it, and I was under 18 at the time in this server.
The caption over the art posted was, "wish this was me." Someone else said, "zaps you." There was clear pleasure and arousal from this, and I had to ask what their intention was in posting this content? The poster ended up admitting that the content is fetish, something they are aroused by. But from admins and the vocal minority of this community, they actively defended this user for what they posted, as something that "they just enjoyed and there is nothing wrong with that."
It's wrong, not when it's self-wear or self-expression that can be "deemed" uncomfortable (like wearing a puphood), but it can be wrong when it's only for self pleasure. I can only deem the intention of posting something sexually arousing in a 13+ server as inappropriate, or NSFW. There is no way to justify something posted for that reasoning. And I had furries who taught children in elementary schools agree, that it would very much be inappropriate to flaunt content like the kind that was sent, the kind that got me called a "puritan" for protesting.
also the sugarcoating should be eased out around 14 and gone by 16 because now with the internet its harder to protect teens and further preteens from the undesired parts of it like the hexagon site. they shouldn't be allowed to view such things until they are 18 but should know of the prior as a way of giving them a better foresight for how to deal with the things they could encounter
Very entertaining video and well edited. I wrote out a massive response but deleted it because I'm so far removed from the furry fandom as an actual community, happily so, and I wish to remain removed from it as much as possible. I'm just happy that issues are being brought up and an attempt at dialogue is following it, even if this far from the first and last time. That's good stuff.
Buuuuuuuuuuuut just to prove I watched the video, I don't think children should have things sugarcoated at any age, especially if the child is asking questions. That said, while I feel honesty is always best, it should be delivered with as much tact as honesty. You're still talking to a child about something they may not fully be able to grapple with yet, and you should ask them how they feel and what they make of something in their own minds as much as giving them straight facts. If I seriously had to put an age to it, I'd say 5 is the absolute latest but I stand by everything that came before it strongly.
That's it, that's my little take, eat it hot or cold. Back to drawing butts.
for the sugercaotingi think the age people need to start being open and honest with kid is different for each kid
If you ask me this should be a thing from the start. There should be a clear and uncrossed line from some adult and kid stuff and anything nsfw doesn't need to be explain all too much on why it's not shown around kids. I have a bunch of friends in the furry fandom and some of them are more heavy on 18+ stuff then others. This is never really a problem when it's around adult but not so much in public.
Kids are like sponges and it doesn't help that they have a lot of curiosity to go with it. I can't count the amount of times a kid tries to sneak into something they shouldn't because they want to know/be part of it both irl and internet.
There is only so much a parent can do when we bring things like BDragon, MSuits, V***, C***+, so on to public then overly saturate it like it's some every day normal thing to walk around publicly in a Msuit and such. If we was to allow it we NEED to separate it at least so there is clearly a fur con with adults only (id or whatever else needed) then a fur con open to everyone with clear rules and transparent moderation (Lets not pretend that some fur cons don't have questionable if not corrupt people running it).
I didn't plan on ranting this much but this does make me reasonably annoyed. I get frustrated when I see it poorly manage online (social app or VRspace) and even more so irl.
Unsure if watched video
@@PureKoor I did just went on a side rant, my bad.
If so I think it needs to be really clear what is NSFW and what is not at a con. For example a lot of people see harnesses as NSFW since some do use it in BDSM and it can be a fetish thing. However there also are some who use harnesses as just an accent or accessory. Like on a deer character with jingle bells or dog characters as dogs do wear harnesses.
Unsure if watched video
this video has brought something to mind: the label "not safe for work" is not applicable, because for the vast number of attendees, conventions are not a work environment, so a new label should be used and defined. it's reasonable to determine what is appropriate for a space, but first, we must have an adequate, not-vague foundation on which to build, lest we exclude some of the very people foundational to the culture.
i am glad more discussions about appropriateness are happening, but we sorely need context to fully understand the history of weaponizing children for ideological purposes. to ask bluntly: are we to consider "for the children" harm reduction arguments in good faith, when this country is actively neglecting, incarcerating, bombing, mutilating, and exploiting our children? to me, it's completely unserious, and part of a culture war so old we scarcely recognize it.
I agree with everything that was said in this video ❤😊 Pure does prove some very good points in his videos
I'm glad you like it and agree!
Personally - A pup / pony hood is a form of gimp hood. If you take the conversation and have someone wearing a gimp hood around a public, SFW space, most people wouldn't assume that it's apart of alternate culture accessories (like collars/harnesses have become) - Even if someone is wearing it for fun, it's inherently designated in the BDSM community as fetish gear. The public presently does not view it as appropriate in areas that are not After Dark.
Please refer to my swimsuit and topless arguments within the video
I don't think family Friendly cons should out right "ban" fetish gear but be more stricture about when you can and when you cant wear gear in the public area of the hotel. I saw Multiple people wearing nothing but a jockstrap and nothing covering it except for a VERY short skirt that isn't even covering it at 2pm, not after dark
The topless discussion on the video is trying to explain why that type of restriction is detramental in the long run
@@PureKoor ??? No-- im talking about full on sexual themes people are doing in sfw hours at a FAMILY FRIENDLY con...
Again, the topless argument I made deals with the idea that someone's body isn't inherently sexual and why we view certain body parts as inherently sexual should be questioned. A person only wearing a jockstrap /can/ be sexual but it is objectively a piece of clothing covering the thing that's suppose to be out of view. So the question becomes "what's the harm" which again, points to the argument of why are cis-women not allowed to be topless in most USA states
oh come on@@PureKoor
this video is so frustating to me@@PureKoor
just wondering. how do people feel about Odin Wolf's second channel? I personally think that, for youtube, some of the things he was talking about was shocking. I am no prude by a long shot, but I was just dumbfounded, the amount of detail he went in telling that story. (if you saw it you know what I am talking about.) even if it was for adults, we all know how easy a child can make an account, and find his channel. I hate to say it but I think his bann was kind of vallide......(and it really hurts me to say that)
Give how our species continues to propagate, every person will encounter reproduction. You can't hide that it exists. You can hide certain aspects of it HOWEVER the internet makes that harder. If you want to protect kids and adults, you need to educate people before they encounter it. Ignorance isn't gonna help kids, and in a future video I'll mention how said ignorance helps predators find victims
Tldr: odin's ban was bad, parents and teachers need to educate their kids better, and idk why Nido got banned cause I didn't watch that channel lol
😂. just to be clear, I do feel bad for Odin. I don't think he even considered that he could get a little backlash. but I also can't say I never made any bad calls in life.@@PureKoor
@@drecatwolfuwu7948 From what I know of them, they seem like a fine person. Everyone makes some bad calls in life but his odin stuff was good. Again, unsure how they handled the nido channel