Are macon blades the better option? Video Analysis of the U23 Womens single 2022 A final
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2022
- At the 2022 U23 rowing world championships in Varese, the women's single saw the most interesting material choice. Macon blades in U23 level racing, close to setting a new world best time.
Original race footage: • 2022 World Rowing Unde...
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I would like to add that using Macon blades with strong wind is also an advantage as the blades are less likely to be rotated by the wind drag.
Mike Purcer and Brian Davis did a huge research understanding of the Old Macon Blades and the New incoming Hatchet Blades we commonly see today.
If you recall, to get the load ratio you had to go out further in Outboard Oar length. But back then, you had the Wood Oars to absorb flex loads. So now you had longer outboards but the standard Macon Spoon surface area caused more slip. In other words, the Blade didn't lock in as well due to surface area. If you saw in the late 1970's crews were rowing with some wild looking Hatchet looking blades. Then I recall the Brits came out with the first of carbon fiber shafts. But what was common, shafts breaking and Blades separating from the new carbon fiber shafts. This is where Concept2 took off. Concept2 in the early years had both Macon Blades and Hatchets were just being test run. As I recall, the Macon Blade outboards were sold mostly in 372, 374, 376 length shaft to Blade lengths. But the interesting thing was the incoming Hatchet Blade had a greater surface area on the spoon but the load ratio shortened the shaft length.
So it's interesting these crews going back to Macon. Because Macon lengthened the shaft outboard length but it also brings back into play shaft breakage up close to the spoon. What I also found interesting on the manufacturing of the Macon carbon fiber blades was shaft twist due to temperature change. What I found with the original runs of Concept2 Blades. If you left the blades out in the sun. The shaft would twist due to the carbon fiber wrapping method to make the shaft. With increased temperature, you could see your pitch change 1 1/2 degrees.
So it wasn't uncommon on race days hour before your event, coaches rechecking Pitch off the end of the Oar and then setting their Crew oars in the shade away from direct sunlight.
But back to Macon or Hatchet Style Spoons, to each his own but there is compromise to use. A Hatchet Blade piles up a lot of water to lock the blade in at entry. Whereas the Macon spills water off the spoon with much less surface area to lock in with. The Hatchet Blade has less outboard length to give you load ratio. The Macon Blade requires longer outboard to get the same Inboard to outboard load ratio.
Now, maybe some people think that the longer outboard might give you more flex for added release at the end of the rowing stroke. Well, if that were true then why are our Eights or other rowing shells having such incredible race distance times. We still race 2000m which is fixed. I think the current Hatchet Style Blade do have better results
I read that she personally prefers using macons, and it seems to me that it also fits her technique. She seems to bend her legs a lot, her seat almost hits her heels, which makes that she uses her legs to the maximum, but also gives a heavy start of the leg drive. She almost locks her legs in her catch position. So in that situation, blades that give some slip are a gift. Besides her feet are far to the front. In the end she almost lies flat, and stil her hands tend to almost pinch herself. She just gets every possible centimeter out of her stroke, which is very heavy if you would do this with bigblades, and would probably slow down your stroke rate. To my humble opinion she goes for stroke length without loosing too much stroke rate, and it pays off! Respect for this strategy!
Great video. I saw the young (17 year old) Swiss woman do really well in 2021 . She was 2nd in the U23, Won U19, Won European u19. THen I saw an old video of Thomas Lange winning the 1x at Worlds in Vienna in 1991. THat was the last year the Macon blades were used at the top level. He won in a light tail wind with a time of 6:41! World best time. I am 71 and had my shoulder replaced last June. I started sculling again in Sept and started using a pair of old macon blades. In the spring I tried to buy a new pair of macon blades . Dreher makes allot of macon blades and I got a pair of 17cm wide sculls. THen I got a pair of C2 macon blades 17 cm wide ( both Dreher and C2 have an 18 cm wide blade, and I have used the 18cm wide blades in a 2x and they feel great) with Skinny adjustable , soft shafts. The Macon blades that were used by Lange were probably 296 cm long which was standard for singles. I row with 296cm overall and 89cm inboard. I like them allot. It takes time to learn to connect at the catch. Hatchet blades connect much easier and make the boat feel more stable. THat's why 30 years ago people who tried them got faster. It made average scullers more stable at the catch. I recently used a pair of Dreher hatchet blades in the single and they felt real heavy. They didn't make the boat go faster. The advantages I see is with good blade work ,the macon blade has a longer outboard lever with less load. My shoulder and arm is still getting stronger. Also there is less resistance to the smaller macon blade area when you square up at the catch.Also you have more clearence when you square up at the catch in rough water. The Texas Rowing Center High Performance Team coach Peter Mansfeld has used macon blades to improve his scullers blade work for many years. His rowers say there isn't much difference in speed from macon to hatchet.
The old C2 macon blades and the new macon blades are the same. The macon sculling blade has more curve than a hatchet blade. THis is curious. When you compare other modern blades the hatchets are flatter with sculling blades and sweep blades EXCEPT for the Croker sweep blade which has more curve to it. This is curious and I can't find out from Croker why their sweep blade style has more curve than other blades from C2 or Dreher hatchet blades.
Yes, please do a video on how to make a quick catch.
I learned to row stating in 1991, quite late, at the age of 31. I joined a community rowing club in the US. The main emphasis of the program was sweep rowing almost to the exclusion of sculling. The reason for this is simple. A group of 8+ boats can accommodate more rowers than a small fleet of singles and, in small poorly funded community based programs, getting the maximum number of rowers on the water for training is the first priority. Very few community rowing programs have the goal of producing elite level rowers. Sad but true. As a result I had to learn sculling on my own without coaching and the only training material was instructional sculling books and this was sorely inadequate. Therefore, I remained an unremarkable sculler. I wish your videos and coaching skills were available to me since they are an invaluable tool for independent scullers who train more or less by themselves.
I love your videos ! I will try macon blades, Thanks Aram
Fascinating thank you
Awesome stuff
When the hatchet oars first came out around thirty years ago I recall a lot of people reporting an advantage of several seconds per 1000m in tests. I tested concept2 hatchets versus a prototype from a traditional oar maker in a pair and found a similar effect. So it's interesting to see this Swiss girl competing at such a high level with macons. My guess is that she could potentially go faster with hatchets, possibly needing a slight tweak to her style. The big blades just lock better in the water.
oars were significantly softer 30 years ago. This is why athletes were not overloaded as badly as today. imho
I think that this is an interesting discussion, and it almost makes me want to dust off my old Macon blades. Unfortunately, they do suffer from that thermal twisting, so rigging the boat with them would be a challenge.
Concept 2 came out with carbon fiber blades in the early 80's, and those shafts were very brittle. A blow due to a clash of blades, or even hitting a lane buoy, could result in the shaft snapping soon after. Concept 2 improved their shafts, and the second generation shafts were almost indestructible.
Concept 2 had about 10 years to practise with carbon fiber production before they started making Hatchets in 1991. In the 1992 Olympics, most of the crews used Hatchets. Many of these crews made the switch from Macon blades even if they could not find a difference in speed. "If the other guy was using them, then I don't want to take the chance that they might be faster," seemed to be the underlining cause for the switch.
One of the Canadian team coaches sent out an eight with Hatchets on one side and Macons on the other and couldn't find a difference. However, I did notice some advantages to Hatchets while I continued to use Macon blades.
The shorter lever arm of the Hatchet blades results in a bigger mechanical advantage, and the larger surface area reduces the slip that would result in just using a shorter Macon blade. Theoretically, this would allow the Hatchet to propel the boat the same distance during the drive. But the key is the mechanicl advantage increase. Hatchets allow more force to be created early in the stroke which will result in more acceleration early in the stroke. This advantage is larger whenever something is slowing the boat more than usual. For instance a head wind or waves. I noticed that if I was racing someone using Hatchets, if we hit the wake from a launch, the other guy would pick up ground even if we had been going stroke for stroke before that. I also noticed that while training with friends who bought Hatchets, they went slightly faster compared to me into a head wind. But here is the interesting part. If there was a slight tail wind, I would go comparably faster. The shorter lever arm seems unable to keep up with the increase in boat speed.
The Hatchet blades are much more forgiving in terms of technique, though. They make catching up with the water easier, they are less prone to height variations during the stroke, and if they aren't as effective near the finish, most rowers have a lousy finish anyway. But if you do row well, the Macon blades can move a boat. Just pray for calm water.
As to faster times using Hatchets proving that Hatchets are faster, they have stiffer shafts that will match the athletes who are stronger, better trained and better coached. Coaching science has come a long way in the last 30 years. That is not to mention the boat buiders have made boats more efficient and stiffer. This is great for stronger, fitter athletes wanting to go fast, but it results in higher loads at the catch. Wear and tear does become a factor.
Clearly, we do not do enough testing of equipment and rigging. Part of that is the cost of equipment, and part of that is time. However, coaches will spend days seat racing crews trying to find who is faster than whom. But coaches will rarely spend days trying to find what might make crews faster. And it might change over time. That young woman rowing with Macon blades may become stronger and the Macons may not longer be the faster type of blade for her. Only testing will find out.
Great comment! Thank you!
I have written this in a few comments just before. Big blades my deceive us: they make us feel as if we were locked at the catch (vertically stabilized) but in fact we are not. We then pay over the middle drive with an overloaded blade.
I would love to see macon blades with Randallfoils.
Absolutely!Rfoils on a Macon would be very interesting. I am a natural lightweight (or used to be 30 years ago 😀) & I stopped rowing at the end of ‘91. In South Africa we didn’t have a dedicated lightweight division, so all the lightweights tried to bulk up (I managed to get to 73kgs from 69) & rowed with & against heavyweights. I rowed a few (50 or so) races & outings with cleavers/hatchets & I could feel my back taking more strain, especially when rowing with heavier crews (probably due to the rigging set up).
For this reason I’ve wondered if juniors (aged 13-16) should row/scull with Macon’s. Bones are still developing etc etc
Aram our coach as j16 was Tom Moffat he won bronze at the world's in 1975 so from 77 he looked after our 4- as it was.We did miles and miles feet out of clogs with macon blades so you had to be smooth and slot the catch it made us so much more efficient in the end
I fully agree. Suffering from a knee injury which is painfull if I put too much load on it I much prefer my 1984 wooden Stämpfli single with macon blades over a new club Fillipi with big blades. Of course the wider span in my own boat also helps, but the difference between macon and big blades is very noticeable.
Danke für das Video habe mich gefragt wieso sie mit Macon Blättern unterwegs war
video on connection as you mentioned around 10:30 please! that would be awesome. thanks.
i think it does not make sense to talk about stiffness of oars and riggers without comparing gear ratios. If i give an athlete a 300 cm macon oar, would it not be "harder" than a 280 big blade/smoothie?
Would you comment on the rowing style of Thomas Lange. What is the source of his speed? I am no expert on sculling but it seems like he makes good use of his upper body and arms to help propel the boat. Your thoughts?
Would be nice if you took a look at the U19 mens four, a great GB team, 5:56 in the final!
So, the first question I have is. Could you train with the Macon blade and then race with one of the smaller big blades? Thus, reducing the stress on the body during those long volume training workouts, then as the race season approaches move into the bigger blade to maximize speed? Really love what you are putting out and the question you raise with your video's. Asst. Coach @ Layfayette College
Thank you for your feedback!
I beleive that many athletes are overloaded with the combo of stiff oars and big blades. It is too much for their low back, pelvis, shoulders and ribs. Most rowers confuse vertical blade stability with the resistance they feel when the blade pushes deeper into the water at the catch.
To answer your question: I would give it a shot, but keep in mind that blade clearance during recovery will be an issue with big blades then...
Really helpful - I was in an 8+ today and one of the bowsiders had a 'double bounce' in the drive... I couldn't work out what it was - maybe it was blade placement?
What is a double bounce?
This young woman demonstrates that certainly in a single, Macons don't seriously compromise the performance.
She demonstrates that mental strength is of great importance.
She has belief in what she chooses, and in a single, longer looms has an advantage for the feel for the balance.
I am not sure if Big Blades pose a disadvantage to some young athletes, and shifting to big blades (if done at all) should happen at an older age than 16....
Hi Aram. I am currently sculling with an old set of macon Dreissigacker carbon oars. I realise technology of materials, stiffness, etc has changed but will I gain an advantage to changing to a more modern hatchet-type? I am a master rower (60yrs old) rowing since the age of 15, a lightweight who has to focus on technique rather than brute strength 🙂. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Your videos are amazing by the way...I am still learning every day.
Eventually, you will need to upgrade. However, I would go for the softest shaft possible and then put randallfoils on
Wouldn't it be the norm to adjust the gearing of the oar (reduce gearing, starting with overall oar length), to ensure a smooth flow of the blade through the water, as an alternative to using macron blades (if, after taking the catch, your blade comes out of the water)?
Alexandra Foester looks like she has her gearing about perfect.
The idea is NOT to let the blade flow "through the water"
Aurelia-Maxima Janzen appears to have unusually long legs in relation to her upper body - observe how high her knees are at the catch. Having unusual proportions could have a role in looking for non-standard rigging.
I think she just has her shoes very high relative to her seat
and the rigging seems to be very low. with the high feet it may be set up for maximum biomechanic advantage without compromizes to comfort. would be nice to have some background infos from her or her coach.
On top of that she uses a boat brand that is less than half of the price of the competitors! The most expensive versions cost around 7.5k, while for the other brands you easily pay 15k. Another statement that fast rowing is not about having the most expensive material.
Something to think about for all you geeks out there who can't row without something yellow under you.
'stiff shaft means repetitive back strain'....
'macon blades means more lateral dynamic'...
'asymmetric blades deliver skyward crank prior to the catch'.....'
'macon blades work within the co-efficient aggregate and facilitate 'clipping the boat off the finish'....
'asymmetric blades have an open mouth which causes the blades to dive into the catch'...
'macon blades grab at the catch when shaped properly'...
'boat rigs with macon symmetrical blades open and close without this crank impediment!'.....
Is that Latvian oar on the wall?
Austrian.
Go ahead Aurelia-Maxima !🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
I understand your point but actually muscles are made of carbon (carbon is the backbone of many human tissues) :)
Good point
Aram, this video is not loading. Are you breaking RUclips again with your heavy knowledge ? :D
I hope not 😂
'Symmetrical blades are much better for combining crews...no sky, catch or finnish...less counter forces amongst crew.'
Symmetrical blades were developed with the co-effiency and rigging aggregates for size and mass.
'Asymmetric blades eclipse these aggregates and they are too high throughout!'
'Symmetrical blades actually dip into the water at the catch, and asymmetric blades dive!'
What do you mean by symmetric
@@AramTraining symetrical means equal facets of blade each side of the axis of the shaft.The aggregate of the hull/ rigger height ,span and inboard/outboard acommodate symetrical blades without having to sky prior to catch and sky out at finnish
I rowed in the early 90s too. If oars are stiffer now - that's scary to me. I heard discussions then about cleaver blades and female lw rib stress fractures.
In sprint canoe, minimising cavitation at the catch makes enormous difference to connection from the catch. Sounds like it is the same with macon blade.
Yes. Rin stress fractures amongst LW women, partially also men is at least not "rare".
However, also heavy men suffer from back injuries. The latter may be caused by excessive linear erg training.
see oarsome foursome Barcelona gold medal with symmetrical blades (macon) :- time 5.55
see oarsome foursome Atlanta gold medal with asymmetric blades :-time 6.05
????
I understand where you are coming from. Big Blades may not ultimately be the solution to all problems. But comparing different courses is not a precise way to draw conclusions
Yes our body is made out of carbon, just not carbon fiber 😂