Thank you so much for doing this tutorial! I'm doing both sides on a 2007 Chevy Silverado 1500 V8 5.3 regular fuel. If anyone needs it, the torque for this model is in the first 11 ft. lbs. and then 15 ft. lbs. in the second pass. Per GM: "1. Tighten the bolts a first pass to 15 [n-m] (11 lb ft). Tighten the exhaust manifold bolts beginning with the center 2 bolts. Alternate from side-to-side, and work toward the outside bolts. 2. Tighten the bolts a final pass to 20 [n-m] (15 lb ft). Tighten the exhaust manifold bolts beginning with the center 2 bolts. Alternate from side-to-side, and work toward the outside bolts."
I’m hearing a ticking noise while decelerating in my ‘97 Discovery. I can visibly see my gasket coming apart. Can’t wait to struggle with some bolts when I do this!
So glad to watch this vid. So I have a 1970 c10 with the same problem.... it clicks. I need a new manifold put on. Trying to restore the truck myself. Took it to the shop. Said a new manifold installation would be 600. Well i can get a set for summit for 200 and if they line up to the existing exhaust your charging me 400 in labor! lol
I bet they’re expecting things to not go smoothly on something over 50 years old. If you’re trying to do a restoration this would be a good job to do yourself. Especially if you need to learn new skills like broken bolt extraction.
they over charged because they didn't want to do it unless it was for a hefty sum because your old machine will have lots of things that will break they will take off to do it easier and warranty-able. they could make more money on a newer vehicle so why take a low paying quick job that ties up their shop for more time than it's worth?
Lol, its funny because im doing the samething right now jealous of the hammer head tool but awesome video dude. Glad i can put sealant on the exhaust head 👍
What kind of brakes where on the Escalate? I see the calipers are blue, Factory upgrade option? Also how is the trans bell housing spotless but the ignition coils look like they been found on a barn truck? My 2008 Chevy 2500 6.0 with 541,000 Original Miles & 13,000+ engine hours didn’t have a rust spot on them
Factory brake calipers. For some odd reason they had been painted blue. The trans had been recently replaced not long before I put an engine in it. That’s about what all coil assemblies around these parts look like with 250k.
Not sure. I don’t know where the Escalade originated from. Could’ve been north of me. I live in Kansas City. I’m actually working on a little video on rust.
Oooh nooo Pete Dorman? I’m disappointed lol the wallet with wings. Nice job on the install I’m in Boston I did one we have to break out the welder every time haha. Thanks for sharing
I have a small leak on the driver side manifold to exhaust pipe gasket, bought a new one for $8 and am trying to figure out the best course of action. Would you recommend taking the manifold completely off and risk breaking a bolt or just removing the 3 bolts below and using a ratchet strap to pull the exhaust pipe and manifold apart and switching the gaskets that way?
@@PetesGarageandperformance that’s what I needed up doing and it worked just fine. Not a bunch of room to work with but plenty to get the gaskets out and new ones in.
Oh you know the left rear bolt is going to be broken. If it’s ticking, it probably has multiple bolts broken. I used to work at our local Hummer dealership as a tech and we did A LOT of broken exhaust manifold bolts.
I would use something like this to drill out the broken bolts. www.amazon.com/Lisle-71400-Manifold-Drill-Template/dp/B07D4YMMFY/ref=pd_gwm_ci_mcx_mr_hp_btf_m?pd_rd_w=OTF1r&content-id=amzn1.sym.86bea039-c099-4635-8e25-ac5f311a78a0&pf_rd_p=86bea039-c099-4635-8e25-ac5f311a78a0&pf_rd_r=BA44003XZY89ET2Z7VJ6&pd_rd_wg=qDZxC&pd_rd_r=edf8cb53-f060-4713-b4bf-ef30ecb3c535&pd_rd_i=B07D4YMMFY. We made a jig just like this one and a “G” drill bit will drill out the meat of the bolt and leave just the threads. Then there’s no need to use a tap and die set. Or use a welder to weld a nut to them. But the weld trick is tough with the head on the engine.
Question.. I have a Chevy Express in for both manifolds and gaskets.. they have to extract 4 broken bolts. Roughly how much time does that add to the overall job?
Hello Pete's Garage, Great video! Noticed something interesting at ~10:50 on vid. The new "Doorman" manifold has cuts in the flange between the cylinders. I had similar issues on GM Atlas 4.2 (Trailblazer, GMC, Saab etc.) First time, replace under extended OEM service for common issue on the Atlas I-6. Unfortunately, had to replace again, but blame this one on collapse of air suspension putting excessive load on exhaust manifold and cracking it. My point on this post is that the 2nd new manifold also had a cut on the exhaust flange between cyl 3 and 4. I believe this late update has stopped the manifold cranking issue. I believe it also release some of the stress on the LS/LQ engines that result in broken bolts. Mr. P
I agree that the relief cuts allow for slight movement and hopefully reduce the chance of cracking. I used to work at a Hummer dealership and the H3 used the 5 cylinder version of the Atlas engine. Those things cracked even worse than the 6 cylinder ones! But 5 cylinder engines vibrate. I6 engines are supposed to be very balanced but I think the long solid manifold just expands and contracts too much. BMW breaks their I6 manifold in two pieces. Probably for the same reason. Thanks for watching.
@@PetesGarageandperformance I was thinking this was the cause too, and a split would seem to benefit. Can you tell us the reasons we should look for when deciding to replace or reuse manifolds? Thanks!
Question, I have a 2000 GMC Sierra 2500 with 6.0 and when replacing the exhaust manifolds does the driver side have a donut or just the oring flat gasket
i hear a tick at idle no bolts broken from what i saw gonna have to double check i also have this weird whistle sound between 1-2k rpm might be intake gaskets i think damn truck got 240k 5.3 05 sierra
From my experience, bad intake gaskets on a vortec engine usually will set a lean code. It’s possible that the exhaust manifold is cracked on the block side and it’s hard to see.
I use a semi deep 3/8” swivel 15mm impact socket. I use a 3/8”-1/2” adapter so I can use my 1/2” impact on them. Also make sure you spray the nuts with some sort of penetrant. Sometimes you have to get the nuts hot with a torch to get them to come off too.
You'll hear ticking on start up and likely under load when you accelerate. When you look at the manifold bolts there will likely be at least one where the head is broken off. In some cases the manifold has cracked as well. I think most people replace the manifold because they can be had for like $50 each from some places and you get all the hardware, so that you don't get it apart and find you need one. For the price, just replace it.
Having mine replaced today. Started to hear a noise that sounded like a long, wet fart whenever I accelerated! then the noise got louder and more constant, even to the point when my engine was idling it could easily be heard. It's a petrol engine that sounded to sound like a knackered deisal engine. Can't wait to get my car back and hear how tight it all sounds :)
You should be fine as long as you have 1/2” drive sockets and breaker bar for those three collector nuts. They’re tight. Also spray them with wd40 or on blaster before trying to remove them.
Hey Pete! Important questions for you and anyone else that may help. I am in need to have both sides on my 06 Yukon Denali replaced. I have a shop doing it because I don’t have much tools or skills when it comes to this. This shop will be putting on the Dorman replacement. Should I follow through or get factory replacements? Please help
My H2 Hummer 2003 gives a code PO420-CAtalytic Converter. OBD2 was used. Check engine light is on. There no symptoms of a bad converter; tic-tic, poor performance or less mileage per gallon, eggs smell, etc. Is it possible that the check light is on for another reason, ex. Manifold bolt, oxygen sensor, gas cap, bad fuel??
I used to work at the Hummer dealership and almost every time we had a p0420 or p0430 we would also find the air filter very dirty. The H2 uses a different air filter than most vehicles and the filter may look ok, but take it out and bang it on the floor. A lot of the time there will be a pile of dirt that falls out of the filter. It may still need a converter to get rid of the code, but definitely check the air filter.
Depends on tour skill level and tools. But I would set aside a couple of hours. Also some of the bolts break so you would need to extract them from the head if they do.
@@AnythingEverythingGh the o2 sensor would be fooled into thinking it was lean because it would possibly read more oxygen. This would cause a positive fuel trim. Meaning it was adding fuel to make up for the excess oxygen.
@@PetesGarageandperformance when you tightened the collector flange bolts/studs did you have a sequence of tightening? Also, recommended torque spec for those bolts/studs? Or just tight? Thank you
Silver is good up to 1600 deg. Copper is good up to 1800 deg. On average, an exhaust manifold on gas and diesel engines will reach temperatures as high as 800 - 900 degrees. Under a medium load the exhaust can reach 1,000 - 1,200 degrees under a heavy load.
This a fantastic video but what if the nuts on the bottom refuse to come off even after you get the nut cherry red and tried doing it by hand or impacting the thing ? ... asking for a friend lol
I’ve never had one that I couldn’t remove with a torch and 1/2” impact. How much psi is your compressor? High flow fittings on the air tools? It makes a big difference to have a good air supply.
@@PetesGarageandperformance i heated one bolt up to where now it looks welded together and stripped, that now needs to be cut off 😤, air impact is on the highest setting with a compressor setting between 95 to 125 psi
Nice work. But I have to wonder why a 10 year old Cadillac, of all makes, needed so many repairs. Caddy was the Standard of the World at the dawn of history. Now not so much. Too bad😢.
The “Cadillac” badge doesn’t mean much on the Escalade. It’s the same vehicle as a Chevrolet Tahoe or GMC Yukon. It’s just optioned our with every option.
Pete's Garage Well that doesn’t say much for GM. One would think a Cadillac badge would mean more quality. No wonder the German and Japanese luxury brands are eating GM’s lunch.
Pete's Garage I don’t doubt that all. Here in California, there are 15-20 Mercedes, BMWs, Audi’s, and Lexus’s for every Cadillac. GM moved the Cadillac headquarters to New York to art to boost sales, then moved it back to Detroit when the NYC move didn’t help sales. Whatever else is wrong, crappy reliability of GM, and especially Cadillac cars isn’t helping sales. Anyway, I’m not trying to undermine your case, I’m just saying buying a Cadillac should result in 100% owner satisfaction.
Unfortunately the reality is that the Cadillac vehicles are the same vehicles as others in GM’s fleet but with way more bells and whistles (more stuff to go wrong).
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you so much for doing this tutorial! I'm doing both sides on a 2007 Chevy Silverado 1500 V8 5.3 regular fuel. If anyone needs it, the torque for this model is in the first 11 ft. lbs. and then 15 ft. lbs. in the second pass. Per GM:
"1. Tighten the bolts a first pass to 15 [n-m] (11 lb ft). Tighten the exhaust manifold bolts beginning with the center 2 bolts. Alternate from side-to-side, and work toward the outside bolts.
2. Tighten the bolts a final pass to 20 [n-m] (15 lb ft). Tighten the exhaust manifold bolts beginning with the center 2 bolts. Alternate from side-to-side, and work toward the outside bolts."
Everyone who at the shop who uses my IR Hammer Head loves it. I never touch my air ratchet anymore, too many busted knuckles.
I freaking love that tool!
I’m hearing a ticking noise while decelerating in my ‘97 Discovery. I can visibly see my gasket coming apart. Can’t wait to struggle with some bolts when I do this!
Good luck. I’ve never had to mess with one of those.
So glad to watch this vid. So I have a 1970 c10 with the same problem.... it clicks. I need a new manifold put on. Trying to restore the truck myself. Took it to the shop. Said a new manifold installation would be 600. Well i can get a set for summit for 200 and if they line up to the existing exhaust your charging me 400 in labor! lol
I bet they’re expecting things to not go smoothly on something over 50 years old. If you’re trying to do a restoration this would be a good job to do yourself. Especially if you need to learn new skills like broken bolt extraction.
they over charged because they didn't want to do it unless it was for a hefty sum because your old machine will have lots of things that will break they will take off to do it easier and warranty-able. they could make more money on a newer vehicle so why take a low paying quick job that ties up their shop for more time than it's worth?
Lol, its funny because im doing the samething right now jealous of the hammer head tool but awesome video dude. Glad i can put sealant on the exhaust head 👍
Tear it up Pete! Cool stuff my friend! Appreciate ya!
Thanks man!
What kind of brakes where on the Escalate? I see the calipers are blue, Factory upgrade option?
Also how is the trans bell housing spotless but the ignition coils look like they been found on a barn truck? My 2008 Chevy 2500 6.0 with 541,000 Original Miles & 13,000+ engine hours didn’t have a rust spot on them
Factory brake calipers. For some odd reason they had been painted blue. The trans had been recently replaced not long before I put an engine in it. That’s about what all coil assemblies around these parts look like with 250k.
Pete's Garage Pete, why is that with the coils? Are you close to Salt-Water air? Great video by the way. Informative Quality Content as always 👍👍👍👍
Not sure. I don’t know where the Escalade originated from. Could’ve been north of me. I live in Kansas City. I’m actually working on a little video on rust.
15#'s first round 18#s second round, other wise bolts will snap off when the engine heats up and expands before the exhaust manifolds do.
Oooh nooo Pete Dorman? I’m disappointed lol the wallet with wings. Nice job on the install I’m in Boston I did one we have to break out the welder every time haha. Thanks for sharing
I guess we will see how it holds up. It didn’t seem too bad.
Dorman actual hold up better the acdelco manifold
I have a small leak on the driver side manifold to exhaust pipe gasket, bought a new one for $8 and am trying to figure out the best course of action. Would you recommend taking the manifold completely off and risk breaking a bolt or just removing the 3 bolts below and using a ratchet strap to pull the exhaust pipe and manifold apart and switching the gaskets that way?
Plan B lol.
@@PetesGarageandperformance that’s what I needed up doing and it worked just fine. Not a bunch of room to work with but plenty to get the gaskets out and new ones in.
Great!
If I want to replace only the exhaust manifold gasket do I still have to loosen the nuts on the studs under the car?
Man I really hope that works that well on my leaking ticking 2005 Hummer H2 exhaust manifolds which probably have broken bolts!
Oh you know the left rear bolt is going to be broken. If it’s ticking, it probably has multiple bolts broken. I used to work at our local Hummer dealership as a tech and we did A LOT of broken exhaust manifold bolts.
@@PetesGarageandperformance do I need to buy and use a bolt tap and die extraction kit or helicoil extractor?
I would use something like this to drill out the broken bolts. www.amazon.com/Lisle-71400-Manifold-Drill-Template/dp/B07D4YMMFY/ref=pd_gwm_ci_mcx_mr_hp_btf_m?pd_rd_w=OTF1r&content-id=amzn1.sym.86bea039-c099-4635-8e25-ac5f311a78a0&pf_rd_p=86bea039-c099-4635-8e25-ac5f311a78a0&pf_rd_r=BA44003XZY89ET2Z7VJ6&pd_rd_wg=qDZxC&pd_rd_r=edf8cb53-f060-4713-b4bf-ef30ecb3c535&pd_rd_i=B07D4YMMFY. We made a jig just like this one and a “G” drill bit will drill out the meat of the bolt and leave just the threads. Then there’s no need to use a tap and die set. Or use a welder to weld a nut to them. But the weld trick is tough with the head on the engine.
How did it come out? I have 05 Hummer too
I have a question about the manifold. I have a Chevy Equinox 2013.
Question.. I have a Chevy Express in for both manifolds and gaskets.. they have to extract 4 broken bolts. Roughly how much time does that add to the overall job?
I’ve always quoted an hour for the first bolt and .5 for each extra. I like to use the old “weld a nut to the broken bolt trick.”
Hi , good video
I havean cadillac escalade ext 2007. Those parts you used on this video Will fit on mine ? I have the same problem here
Yes they should.
You have link to repair on leak to radiator
ruclips.net/video/mt7g-0lM4bY/видео.html
Hello Pete's Garage,
Great video! Noticed something interesting at ~10:50 on vid. The new "Doorman" manifold has cuts in the flange between the cylinders. I had similar issues on GM Atlas 4.2 (Trailblazer, GMC, Saab etc.) First time, replace under extended OEM service for common issue on the Atlas I-6. Unfortunately, had to replace again, but blame this one on collapse of air suspension putting excessive load on exhaust manifold and cracking it.
My point on this post is that the 2nd new manifold also had a cut on the exhaust flange between cyl 3 and 4. I believe this late update has stopped the manifold cranking issue. I believe it also release some of the stress on the LS/LQ engines that result in broken bolts.
Mr. P
I agree that the relief cuts allow for slight movement and hopefully reduce the chance of cracking. I used to work at a Hummer dealership and the H3 used the 5 cylinder version of the Atlas engine. Those things cracked even worse than the 6 cylinder ones! But 5 cylinder engines vibrate. I6 engines are supposed to be very balanced but I think the long solid manifold just expands and contracts too much. BMW breaks their I6 manifold in two pieces. Probably for the same reason. Thanks for watching.
@@PetesGarageandperformance I was thinking this was the cause too, and a split would seem to benefit. Can you tell us the reasons we should look for when deciding to replace or reuse manifolds? Thanks!
Question, I have a 2000 GMC Sierra 2500 with 6.0 and when replacing the exhaust manifolds does the driver side have a donut or just the oring flat gasket
The driver’s side just has that round ring for a gasket. The passenger side may have a donut or a ring depending on the engine and chassis.
i hear a tick at idle no bolts broken from what i saw gonna have to double check i also have this weird whistle sound between 1-2k rpm might be intake gaskets i think damn truck got 240k 5.3 05 sierra
From my experience, bad intake gaskets on a vortec engine usually will set a lean code. It’s possible that the exhaust manifold is cracked on the block side and it’s hard to see.
I have the ticking problem to. Can it be both sides or more than just one side ? I don't have any broken bolts.
I have it on both sides but I haven’t done anything about it yet.
Put a shop vac on the blower side and stick it in the exaughst in the back and spray the manifold with soap water and it will bubble up so you can see
What tools did you use to take off the 3 nuts on the flange??? I cant get to the top one having trouble getting a socket on it
I use a semi deep 3/8” swivel 15mm impact socket. I use a 3/8”-1/2” adapter so I can use my 1/2” impact on them. Also make sure you spray the nuts with some sort of penetrant. Sometimes you have to get the nuts hot with a torch to get them to come off too.
Can you explain the symptoms leading up to the replacement of the exhaust manifold?
.
You'll hear ticking on start up and likely under load when you accelerate. When you look at the manifold bolts there will likely be at least one where the head is broken off. In some cases the manifold has cracked as well. I think most people replace the manifold because they can be had for like $50 each from some places and you get all the hardware, so that you don't get it apart and find you need one. For the price, just replace it.
Having mine replaced today. Started to hear a noise that sounded like a long, wet fart whenever I accelerated! then the noise got louder and more constant, even to the point when my engine was idling it could easily be heard. It's a petrol engine that sounded to sound like a knackered deisal engine. Can't wait to get my car back and hear how tight it all sounds :)
@@HalfDayHero how much did cost
What size are the bolts for the exhaust manifold?
8x1.25mm. Not exactly sure how long they are though. Either 10mm or 13mm heads depending on how old the engine is.
Awesome video dude! Love the detail and ability to hear you. I’ll be attempting this without air tools, think it’ll be too risky?
You should be fine as long as you have 1/2” drive sockets and breaker bar for those three collector nuts. They’re tight. Also spray them with wd40 or on blaster before trying to remove them.
Hey Pete! Important questions for you and anyone else that may help. I am in need to have both sides on my 06 Yukon Denali replaced. I have a shop doing it because I don’t have much tools or skills when it comes to this. This shop will be putting on the Dorman replacement. Should I follow through or get factory replacements? Please help
It seems decent to me. I don’t know how long it’ll last because I did this less than a year ago. It’s definitely cheaper than stock.
any update on how long it lasted/has lasted?
My H2 Hummer 2003 gives a code PO420-CAtalytic Converter. OBD2 was used. Check engine light is on. There no symptoms of a bad converter; tic-tic, poor performance or less mileage per gallon, eggs smell, etc. Is it possible that the check light is on for another reason, ex. Manifold bolt, oxygen sensor, gas cap, bad fuel??
I used to work at the Hummer dealership and almost every time we had a p0420 or p0430 we would also find the air filter very dirty. The H2 uses a different air filter than most vehicles and the filter may look ok, but take it out and bang it on the floor. A lot of the time there will be a pile of dirt that falls out of the filter. It may still need a converter to get rid of the code, but definitely check the air filter.
Do you have audio of what it sounds like while driving
Sorry I don’t. Usually it’ll make a ticking noise when it’s cold and under power. Then seal up when the manifold expands from the heat.
Its Eazier just to disconnect the steering shaft and put back when your done
I usually disconnect the shaft. This one was seized. I’ve also ran into other vehicles where the shaft was seized together.
@@PetesGarageandperformance seized ? Where that bolt and nut is in the middle?
Yes. Where the two shafts sleeve together. If it’s high mileage and hasn’t ever been taken off, they can be very stuck.
What pressure is ur air compressor set at?
Mine is 125psi. It’s a 60 gallon. I’ve found that the cheap fittings really restrict the airflow and make air tools not work very well.
@@PetesGarageandperformance mines set at 100 psi. I think I can adjust it though.
How long did the job take
Depends on tour skill level and tools. But I would set aside a couple of hours. Also some of the bolts break so you would need to extract them from the head if they do.
The extension eats up the shock and torque of the gun.
Why did you have a leak , was the manifold cracked?
Yes this one was cracked.
@@PetesGarageandperformance we're at ? On the manifold ?
Yeah the back side had a small crack near the rear runner. I’ve only seen a couple of these crack before. But it did have almost 300k miles on it.
With a crack manifold like this, will fuel trim be negative or positive sif you are familiar with them.
@@AnythingEverythingGh the o2 sensor would be fooled into thinking it was lean because it would possibly read more oxygen. This would cause a positive fuel trim. Meaning it was adding fuel to make up for the excess oxygen.
Nice video. I will save over $600 instead of paying a mechanic
Yeah it’s an easy savings until there’s a broken bolt. Lol.
This was a very good video for a mechanical purpose thanks a lot but I don't like after market parts it don't lost longer .
Yes I agree that the factory parts are the best. But the owner wanted to save a few bucks. So we gave the Dorman manifold a shot.
Thanks brother, nice job 👍
Thank you.
@@PetesGarageandperformance when you tightened the collector flange bolts/studs did you have a sequence of tightening? Also, recommended torque spec for those bolts/studs? Or just tight? Thank you
Thanks for making this video
Great vid god bless
Awesome job awesome video
Where is the manifold seal?
What a crazy idea.......did this man just invent gloves?
I thought it was 18lbs on the first pass and 11bs on the second pass.
Thanks
Good video, but that silver anti seize doesn't do crap for anything that gets hot. You want the copper colored stuff for heat.
Silver is good up to 1600 deg. Copper is good up to 1800 deg.
On average, an exhaust manifold on gas and diesel engines will reach temperatures as high as 800 - 900 degrees. Under a medium load the exhaust can reach 1,000 - 1,200 degrees under a heavy load.
This a fantastic video but what if the nuts on the bottom refuse to come off even after you get the nut cherry red and tried doing it by hand or impacting the thing ?
... asking for a friend lol
I’ve never had one that I couldn’t remove with a torch and 1/2” impact. How much psi is your compressor? High flow fittings on the air tools? It makes a big difference to have a good air supply.
@@PetesGarageandperformance i heated one bolt up to where now it looks welded together and stripped, that now needs to be cut off 😤, air impact is on the highest setting with a compressor setting between 95 to 125 psi
@@PetesGarageandperformance i have the same motor from the Cadi in my sierra manifold and exhaust wise pretty sure motor too, mines a 4.8 v8 vortec
Ypur my hero
It is a new engine. I bet it is hardwr when you have 50K on the engine.
Nice work. But I have to wonder why a 10 year old Cadillac, of all makes, needed so many repairs. Caddy was the Standard of the World at the dawn of history. Now not so much. Too bad😢.
The “Cadillac” badge doesn’t mean much on the Escalade. It’s the same vehicle as a Chevrolet Tahoe or GMC Yukon. It’s just optioned our with every option.
Pete's Garage Well that doesn’t say much for GM. One would think a Cadillac badge would mean more quality. No wonder the German and Japanese luxury brands are eating GM’s lunch.
From my experience the German luxury brands leave a lot to be desired in terms of reliability.
Pete's Garage I don’t doubt that all. Here in California, there are 15-20 Mercedes, BMWs, Audi’s, and Lexus’s for every Cadillac. GM moved the Cadillac headquarters to New York to art to boost sales, then moved it back to Detroit when the NYC move didn’t help sales. Whatever else is wrong, crappy reliability of GM, and especially Cadillac cars isn’t helping sales. Anyway, I’m not trying to undermine your case, I’m just saying buying a Cadillac should result in 100% owner satisfaction.
Unfortunately the reality is that the Cadillac vehicles are the same vehicles as others in GM’s fleet but with way more bells and whistles (more stuff to go wrong).