Wow. Well done. You’ve got it, man. Tons of insight and you nailed the key point - all that matters is cost of ownership. Initial cost is just one number in the equation.
For new young buyers, there is also the issue of credit worthiness. I don't think many 18 year-olds can stroke a $20k check or get financed with 20% down without a co-signer. I think the Future Forward financing is a good idea to help get the monthly payment low.
@@freedomiseverything Yup, that’s true. The straightforward and insightful analysis in your videos is top drawer. Thanks for all of your good work putting these videos together.
Can you please do a video about comparing 2020 Harley Davidson livewire and 2022 Livewire One. Like- software, parts that have changed to reduce the cost down, about App, etc. It would be helpful to lot of people. I know a lot of people who are confused where they should buy the old modal in a reduced price or to buy a new Livewire to get the latest one but no much change. That make people a bit confusing which one should they buy.
It's just another blunder. This time on the sales and distribution side. Harley-Davidson LiveWire is simply stiff-arming it's original customers that stepped up and bought the bike. Now that LiveWire is a separate brand, Harley-Davidson doesn't want to get in trouble with it's Harley-Davidson dealer network by taking away their customers and giving them to LiveWire Motorcycles. Harley-Davidson is listening to its legal counsel instead of taking care of its customers. These are the differences between the Harley-Davidson LiveWire and the LiveWire ONE: a) ONE has a different seat latch and a slightly different seat pan to accommodate it. b) ONE has a slightly different rear fender. c) ONE has a sensor in the battery pack that has a different part number. d) ONE has a free unlimited subscription to "LiveWire Connect." e) ONE has regular software updates to address a range of issues, including CCS compatibility. f) ONE is a different color. Other than the above items, the bikes are identical. Basically, the LiveWire ONE has not been upgraded or refreshed since it was introduced as Harley-Davidson LiveWire in 2019. All the LiveWire Motorcycle Company seems to be working on is the Arrow Architecture. I understand their logic. But, it's just another blunder. I have no inside information. But, I think they're going to let the LiveWire ONE die a slow death. I think the fundamental problem is that it is an expensive bike to build and they can't make money on it at the price they are selling it for. As for me, I consider the LiveWire ONE to be the best motorcycle ever built (gas or electric) at any price. I make that judgment based on the way I feel when I ride it. LiveWire Motorcycles should offer Harley-Davidson LIveWire customers a free upgrade to LiveWire ONE and include the software, the badging and the free software subscription to LIveWire Connect. My advice to you is buy the Harley-Davidson LiveWire if you like to collect bikes you will never ride. Buy the LiveWire ONE to get the software updates, the new bike warrantee and the free lifetime subscription to LiveWire Connect.
When I talk to people about my Livewire, the most common critique is "it's too expensive". Second is almost always a charging concern based in ignorance. I'm tired of making excuses for Harley Davidson's poor marketing They've spent too much effort on marketing their apparel business and not enough on marketing their only viable product going forward. Electric motorcycles. Haey blamed the stunted rollout of the 2020 Livewire on their dealers. The Livewire SPAC is showing me it wasn't the dealers, or the former CEO who fumbled. It is Harley's own perception that they are one of the world's top marketers. It is their own ego. Harley Davidson must admit that electric is the only way forward, and act accordingly. Otherwise they die.
The man had very little idea what he was talking about. I really don't know what livewire is doing at this point. They did mention a 3rd version on the Arrow platform so that's good news perhaps they will build a trike who knows. One thing is for sure we are going to lose a great livewire rider if you keep this up your blood pressure has got to be high over this livewire stuff. To be honest there are not enough of us to really matter, but your videos are 100% on point with this stuff. BIG problem nobody really cares it's just a motorcycle even though it's the greatest form of transportation ever created by man next to the Jetson ONE
Mr. Zeitz was not properly rehearsed by his PR team. He should have had an agenda for what points to make. Remember Lee Iacocca? To be honest, it's not just electric motorcycles that I'm concerned about. We need to find a way to get young people engaged with nature. The only path forward is to expand our collective power in order to solve our biggest problems.
I agree this bike looks overpriced but I'm still going to test one when it gets to Paris, France. It looks like a great machine. After years of owning ICE motorcyles of all types, I finally bought a Zero FXE electric bike. It cost 14k euros to buy. I fill it up for 1 euro and after a couple of years I have had no maintenance costs whatsoever. This compares with 20 euros per tank for my Triumph speed triple (per week) and hundreds in service charges. This is a huge saving over the year. I don't know about depreciation compared with ICEs as there is little hindsight. The low range for me is not too much of a concern because I'm an urban commuter and never do over 100 miles per day, which is roughly my Zero's range too. Anyway, thanks for the content.
Your comment that the battery includes the cost of fuel defies logic. The electricity to charge it from 83 percent fossil full generated power is not included. In addition your additional statement that most of the fuel is there and subtracting the total prices of the gas from the motorcycle is arsine. You can subtract the difference of the cost of gas and electricity. Don't compare the home charge costs, use then quick charge station is between 40 to 70 cents per kWh. My CB500X when I'm driving in a combination of intown and highway, not expressway, gets 68 mpg or about 5 cents a mile which is around the same cost per mile an E bike gets when charging at a public fast charge station. I've gotten close to 80 mpg in town driving exclusively. Incidentally, I can travel 300 miles without having to recharge and adding three hours travel time. E bikes have a place, commuting, they are quite, great acceleration, etc., but don't bullshit and mislead potential E bike buyers, they are expensive, have limited range, require time to recharge them and the cost of full is not significant less unless they being charge at home or comparing mileage to the large touring bikes. They are not any safer for storage than gas powered bikes, "Hundreds of e-bike battery fires and explosions happen each year due to malfunctioning and aging batteries. It is unsure if or when a battery pack will explode, but when it does the damage is disastrous. In a period of only 7 months, 3 fires broke out at the HQ and showroom of a Dutch E-bike company."
In a gas motorcycle, the gasoline is the fuel source. The price of the gasoline is "not included" in the MSRP of the motorcycle. In an electric motorcycle, the battery is the fuel source. The price of the battery "is included" in the MSRP of the motorcycle. If a $10,000 gas motorcycle goes 50,000 miles at 40 MPG and gas cost $6.00 a gallon, the total cost of bike and fuel is $17,500. If a $17,000 electric motorcycle goes 50,000 miles at 10 miles per kWh at $.15 per kW, the total cost of the bike and fuel is $17,750. Therefore, an easy way to compare the MSRP of a gas motorcyle to the MSRP of an electric motorcycle is to subtract the $7,500 cost of fuel on the gas motorcyle from the $17,000 cost of the electric motorcycle. The more you ride, the cheaper the electric motorcycle becomes relative to the gas motorcycle. The United States is making a big push to clean up its electric grid. In California, renewable electricity is currently at 33% and climbing rapidly. I think you are mixing together ebikes with electric motorcycles. There are only three companies building electric motorcycles and none of them are in Holland. I know of no instances of fires or explosions on electric motorcycles. In order to better understand the cost of gas bikes as compared to electric bikes, I provided some charts and graphs towards the end of this video. Did you watch the whole thing?
OK I didnt watch the whole thing but was wondering if you included the cost of electricity in your calculations? charging is not free it costs money just like gas, So depending on where you are that expense needs to be calculated.
That's true. But part of what goes along with a LiveWire is people thinking you paid too much. I'd rather talk about what a good deal I got on the price. That's part of the emotional sale too.
The difference is that Tesla always list the real price, I agree with you that they have to keep telling the saving costs. They *must* tell the real price, they can't hide it, that's what I'm staying. The problem, I think, is that they are talking like they do to an HD audience, I'm used to the marketing. HD never mentions operating costs, or bike optionals, usually because their bikes are not "good" under that aspect (except maintenance effort or reliability which is one of the greatest). I know very well about this as an harleyst, they rely on their customer to highlight the pro. That's why they keep building the marketing on a community and experience standpoint, the riders are going to do the rest of the work. HOG is really a great organization, both for the people and as a marketing machine. The problem is that most of their current customer base is not interested for various reasons, good and bad, and the eMC market is not big enough to work that way on a large scale.
Actually Tesla started off with false advertising, leading with the “cost after potential savings” and then “click here if you want to see what it really cost”. Other countries who don’t allow false advertising forced Tesla to put the real price first, then “click here for potential cost savings”. Finally the US website also corrected to state real price first. Perhaps Livewire thinks anyone willing to accept the compromise of an electric motorcycle knows the cost for energy per mile will be less, but if its a pleasure use vehicle nobody cares. I never once said “I better check my wallet to see if i can afford to right my 1980 FXS Low Rider”. Livewire also knows that a 5 gallon gas tank still holds 5 gallons after 20 years, but a 10 kwh battery with 5 year warranty will not. Nobody knows the true depreciation of these bikes yet, so the increased interest on the loan, higher insurance costs, and bigger loss in depreciation can easily offset any energy cost savings.
@@freedomiseverything, by 2042 gas prices might be lower (adjusted for inflation) than it is now, except in certain states. Nobody buying a $35k+ Harley is worried about it. The only thing they would be worried about is a ban on the sale of gasoline. If and when that day comes, electric motorcycles will be a lot more able to replace a gas bike than they are today.
This rant is just strange. And oddly aggro. I have really enjoyed some of your content but this stuff is just over the top. You have a strong opinion about how they should run the company but is this really your area of expertise? Certainly isn't mine. Won't be back.
I'm sorry to see you go. I have no expertise in this area outside of being a customer. I am just very frustrated that after 4 years of selling the LiveWire ONE, the price has never been addressed. Tesla set the example years ago about how to address the high price of EVs. I just wish LiveWire could copy a proven successful strategy. I did not buy the stock. However, our family has $50k invested in LiveWire products and another $17K on the way in the spring. The LiveWire people I meet seem very knowledgeable and excited. However, there is some kind of disconnect at corporate.
This guy is right tbough .. and you might be right too expecting him not to be agrivated on this stuff .. it just shows his passion ..btw.. i do know what i m talking about :-) .. have a good one ! !
Cost of ownership most important point ...but well .. we ll see .. i mean we also need good electric company s that will respect the right to repair ! .. tesla and zero are not doing well ... aptera is gonna be special .. ..
I don't want to be the guy who says "buell 2.0" but harley making better more modern motorcycles but failing to support the product properly despite what should be massive corporate resources to do so.
I agree. LiveWire Motorcycles should agree to upgrade and support HD LiveWire owners. It would go a long way to building credibility in the brand. Plus, those are the customers LiveWire needs to keep to sell more bikes in the future.
His big mistakes were saving Livewire One cost $12,670 and then seeming not to understand English when the reporter called him out on it. If he understand English he would have corrected his mistake. But the Livewire Del Mar price is in fact $16,999. Your wishful thinking that POTENTIAL cost savings can be taken off the MSRP are total NONSENSE. The price is what you need to hand over to take possession, not what you will do later to pay off the loan. The movie and claim that GM killed the electric car is totally nonsense too. Everyone following Tesla since before Elon Musk bought it from the two original founders knows that tesla almost went bankrupt several times, and the ONLY reason its alive is because Elon saved it from certain death. The EV1 was just 20 years too early. Trying to continue that would not have saved them from bankruptcy. GM actually funded the research that made Tesla even viable. They paid a research center who had Allan Cocconi design the 3-phase inverter for the Impact, which evolved into EV1. He and some others founded AC Propulsion and among other things made the T-Zero with a bunch of AGM batteries. Then the Martin Eberhard allegedly came uo with the totally ridiculous idea of putting a $60,000 battery in a $30,000 car. And the rest is history. So only uninformed followers of EV’s really believe GM killed them. Its more plausible that Chevron killed them by buying the rights to large format NiMH cells which were the only battery viable for EV at the time and what EV1 used in the later versions. Eberhard figured that “economies of scale” would make the lithium ion batteries viable and even now 20 years later they are just now getting affordable.
@@gmy33, GM finished their test program and the EV1, like every EV made up to a decade later, was guaranteed to loose money. The decision to crush them was to get them simply for liability. For one, a manufacturer needs to supply parts for their cars for 10 years. The expense of that alone for a car you aren’t making anymore is a lot. Another huge liability is the battery. While the 16.5-18.7 kWh lead-acid batteries were probably not a huge risk, the later versions with 26.4 kWh NiMH can catch fire and easily get out of control. The cost of paying for a family being burned to death in their sleep, both financially and in image, was not worth leaving the EV1 out in the wild. These cars also had chargers that can add a lot of liability. Some might ask, why not just remove the battery and sell them? Well thats even more risky. Of course those would have all been snatched up and then filled with whatever battery is most viable for the next 50 years. And while it would seem GM would not be liable, there are many cases where manufacturers are sued for things 100% beyond their control. The documentary “Who Killed the Electric Car?” Would have been ok if they showed the electric starter for gasoline engines is what killed the electric car, which was truly alive in the early 1900s. And instead of explanation how GM spend lots of money starting with the Electrovair in the 1960s. It had a 3-phase AC motor but the inverter wasn’t solid state and the batteries were cost prohibitive. Then GM tried again with the Impact, which went on to become EV1. Same problem, no financially viable battery existed and Chevron ensured it would be another 20 years before one was. Even today, as far as Tesla has made it, the tipping point still has not been reached for electric cars. That shows how much GM would have struggled trying to keep the public EV1 program going. But certainly they always had someone working on the solution. If and when EVs reach the tipping point, hopefully someone can make a documentary about all the links in the chain that led to it, but without Elon Musk, there would be no Tesla company today, and Elon Musk wanted nothing to do with Tesla in the beginning because even he knew it was not viable at that time. And many links before Elon musk also were imperative.
In 2006, Rick Wagoner said, "Axing the EV1 electric car program," was his biggest mistake. So, you think it was Chevron buying a patent for NiMH batteries?
Sorry but most of your assumptions and your entire premise are bs, the biggest one is that battery is same as gasoline, it is actually an expensive tank to store the electrical energy which is the actually fuel … so the rest of your calculations based on your faulty premise are useless … I could go on but don’t really want to waste my time
Wow. Well done. You’ve got it, man. Tons of insight and you nailed the key point - all that matters is cost of ownership. Initial cost is just one number in the equation.
For new young buyers, there is also the issue of credit worthiness. I don't think many 18 year-olds can stroke a $20k check or get financed with 20% down without a co-signer.
I think the Future Forward financing is a good idea to help get the monthly payment low.
@@freedomiseverything
Yup, that’s true.
The straightforward and insightful analysis in your videos is top drawer. Thanks for all of your good work putting these videos together.
Can you please do a video about comparing 2020 Harley Davidson livewire and 2022 Livewire One.
Like- software, parts that have changed to reduce the cost down, about App, etc.
It would be helpful to lot of people.
I know a lot of people who are confused where they should buy the old modal in a reduced price or to buy a new Livewire to get the latest
one but no much change. That make people a bit confusing which one should they buy.
It's just another blunder. This time on the sales and distribution side. Harley-Davidson LiveWire is simply stiff-arming it's original customers that stepped up and bought the bike. Now that LiveWire is a separate brand, Harley-Davidson doesn't want to get in trouble with it's Harley-Davidson dealer network by taking away their customers and giving them to LiveWire Motorcycles. Harley-Davidson is listening to its legal counsel instead of taking care of its customers.
These are the differences between the Harley-Davidson LiveWire and the LiveWire ONE:
a) ONE has a different seat latch and a slightly different seat pan to accommodate it.
b) ONE has a slightly different rear fender.
c) ONE has a sensor in the battery pack that has a different part number.
d) ONE has a free unlimited subscription to "LiveWire Connect."
e) ONE has regular software updates to address a range of issues, including CCS compatibility.
f) ONE is a different color.
Other than the above items, the bikes are identical. Basically, the LiveWire ONE has not been upgraded or refreshed since it was introduced as Harley-Davidson LiveWire in 2019. All the LiveWire Motorcycle Company seems to be working on is the Arrow Architecture. I understand their logic. But, it's just another blunder. I have no inside information. But, I think they're going to let the LiveWire ONE die a slow death. I think the fundamental problem is that it is an expensive bike to build and they can't make money on it at the price they are selling it for.
As for me, I consider the LiveWire ONE to be the best motorcycle ever built (gas or electric) at any price. I make that judgment based on the way I feel when I ride it.
LiveWire Motorcycles should offer Harley-Davidson LIveWire customers a free upgrade to LiveWire ONE and include the software, the badging and the free software subscription to LIveWire Connect.
My advice to you is buy the Harley-Davidson LiveWire if you like to collect bikes you will never ride. Buy the LiveWire ONE to get the software updates, the new bike warrantee and the free lifetime subscription to LiveWire Connect.
When I talk to people about my Livewire, the most common critique is "it's too expensive". Second is almost always a charging concern based in ignorance. I'm tired of making excuses for Harley Davidson's poor marketing They've spent too much effort on marketing their apparel business and not enough on marketing their only viable product going forward. Electric motorcycles.
Haey blamed the stunted rollout of the 2020 Livewire on their dealers. The Livewire SPAC is showing me it wasn't the dealers, or the former CEO who fumbled. It is Harley's own perception that they are one of the world's top marketers. It is their own ego.
Harley Davidson must admit that electric is the only way forward, and act accordingly. Otherwise they die.
I agree. There is no gas future for motorcycles .
Learning a lot. Thought you were an engineer based on other videos
I'm not an engineer. I just play one on RUclips.
The man had very little idea what he was talking about. I really don't know what livewire is doing at this point. They did mention a 3rd version on the Arrow platform so that's good news perhaps they will build a trike who knows. One thing is for sure we are going to lose a great livewire rider if you keep this up your blood pressure has got to be high over this livewire stuff. To be honest there are not enough of us to really matter, but your videos are 100% on point with this stuff. BIG problem nobody really cares it's just a motorcycle even though it's the greatest form of transportation ever created by man next to the Jetson ONE
Mr. Zeitz was not properly rehearsed by his PR team. He should have had an agenda for what points to make. Remember Lee Iacocca? To be honest, it's not just electric motorcycles that I'm concerned about. We need to find a way to get young people engaged with nature. The only path forward is to expand our collective power in order to solve our biggest problems.
I agree this bike looks overpriced but I'm still going to test one when it gets to Paris, France. It looks like a great machine. After years of owning ICE motorcyles of all types, I finally bought a Zero FXE electric bike. It cost 14k euros to buy. I fill it up for 1 euro and after a couple of years I have had no maintenance costs whatsoever. This compares with 20 euros per tank for my Triumph speed triple (per week) and hundreds in service charges. This is a huge saving over the year. I don't know about depreciation compared with ICEs as there is little hindsight. The low range for me is not too much of a concern because I'm an urban commuter and never do over 100 miles per day, which is roughly my Zero's range too. Anyway, thanks for the content.
Your comment that the battery includes the cost of fuel defies logic. The electricity to charge it from 83 percent fossil full generated power is not included. In addition your additional statement that most of the fuel is there and subtracting the total prices of the gas from the motorcycle is arsine. You can subtract the difference of the cost of gas and electricity. Don't compare the home charge costs, use then quick charge station is between 40 to 70 cents per kWh.
My CB500X when I'm driving in a combination of intown and highway, not expressway, gets 68 mpg or about 5 cents a mile which is around the same cost per mile an E bike gets when charging at a public fast charge station. I've gotten close to 80 mpg in town driving exclusively. Incidentally, I can travel 300 miles without having to recharge and adding three hours travel time. E bikes have a place, commuting, they are quite, great acceleration, etc., but don't bullshit and mislead potential E bike buyers, they are expensive, have limited range, require time to recharge them and the cost of full is not significant less unless they being charge at home or comparing mileage to the large touring bikes.
They are not any safer for storage than gas powered bikes, "Hundreds of e-bike battery fires and explosions happen each year due to malfunctioning and aging batteries. It is unsure if or when a battery pack will explode, but when it does the damage is disastrous. In a period of only 7 months, 3 fires broke out at the HQ and showroom of a Dutch E-bike company."
In a gas motorcycle, the gasoline is the fuel source. The price of the gasoline is "not included" in the MSRP of the motorcycle. In an electric motorcycle, the battery is the fuel source. The price of the battery "is included" in the MSRP of the motorcycle.
If a $10,000 gas motorcycle goes 50,000 miles at 40 MPG and gas cost $6.00 a gallon, the total cost of bike and fuel is $17,500.
If a $17,000 electric motorcycle goes 50,000 miles at 10 miles per kWh at $.15 per kW, the total cost of the bike and fuel is $17,750.
Therefore, an easy way to compare the MSRP of a gas motorcyle to the MSRP of an electric motorcycle is to subtract the $7,500 cost of fuel on the gas motorcyle from the $17,000 cost of the electric motorcycle.
The more you ride, the cheaper the electric motorcycle becomes relative to the gas motorcycle.
The United States is making a big push to clean up its electric grid. In California, renewable electricity is currently at 33% and climbing rapidly.
I think you are mixing together ebikes with electric motorcycles. There are only three companies building electric motorcycles and none of them are in Holland. I know of no instances of fires or explosions on electric motorcycles.
In order to better understand the cost of gas bikes as compared to electric bikes, I provided some charts and graphs towards the end of this video. Did you watch the whole thing?
OK I didnt watch the whole thing but was wondering if you included the cost of electricity in your calculations? charging is not free it costs money just like gas, So depending on where you are that expense needs to be calculated.
I included the cost of charging.
Their customer doesn’t care about cost that much. It’s an emotional sale
That's true. But part of what goes along with a LiveWire is people thinking you paid too much. I'd rather talk about what a good deal I got on the price. That's part of the emotional sale too.
The difference is that Tesla always list the real price, I agree with you that they have to keep telling the saving costs.
They *must* tell the real price, they can't hide it, that's what I'm staying.
The problem, I think, is that they are talking like they do to an HD audience, I'm used to the marketing.
HD never mentions operating costs, or bike optionals, usually because their bikes are not "good" under that aspect (except maintenance effort or reliability which is one of the greatest). I know very well about this as an harleyst, they rely on their customer to highlight the pro.
That's why they keep building the marketing on a community and experience standpoint, the riders are going to do the rest of the work. HOG is really a great organization, both for the people and as a marketing machine.
The problem is that most of their current customer base is not interested for various reasons, good and bad, and the eMC market is not big enough to work that way on a large scale.
Actually Tesla started off with false advertising, leading with the “cost after potential savings” and then “click here if you want to see what it really cost”. Other countries who don’t allow false advertising forced Tesla to put the real price first, then “click here for potential cost savings”. Finally the US website also corrected to state real price first.
Perhaps Livewire thinks anyone willing to accept the compromise of an electric motorcycle knows the cost for energy per mile will be less, but if its a pleasure use vehicle nobody cares. I never once said “I better check my wallet to see if i can afford to right my 1980 FXS Low Rider”.
Livewire also knows that a 5 gallon gas tank still holds 5 gallons after 20 years, but a 10 kwh battery with 5 year warranty will not. Nobody knows the true depreciation of these bikes yet, so the increased interest on the loan, higher insurance costs, and bigger loss in depreciation can easily offset any energy cost savings.
@@imho7250 The real question is how much 5 gallons of gas will cost in 2042 and how much 10 kWh will cost in 2042. I'm betting on electric.
@@freedomiseverything, by 2042 gas prices might be lower (adjusted for inflation) than it is now, except in certain states. Nobody buying a $35k+ Harley is worried about it. The only thing they would be worried about is a ban on the sale of gasoline. If and when that day comes, electric motorcycles will be a lot more able to replace a gas bike than they are today.
This rant is just strange. And oddly aggro. I have really enjoyed some of your content but this stuff is just over the top. You have a strong opinion about how they should run the company but is this really your area of expertise? Certainly isn't mine. Won't be back.
I'm sorry to see you go. I have no expertise in this area outside of being a customer. I am just very frustrated that after 4 years of selling the LiveWire ONE, the price has never been addressed. Tesla set the example years ago about how to address the high price of EVs. I just wish LiveWire could copy a proven successful strategy.
I did not buy the stock. However, our family has $50k invested in LiveWire products and another $17K on the way in the spring. The LiveWire people I meet seem very knowledgeable and excited. However, there is some kind of disconnect at corporate.
This guy is right tbough .. and you might be right too expecting him not to be agrivated on this stuff .. it just shows his passion ..btw.. i do know what i m talking about :-) .. have a good one ! !
Cost of ownership most important point ...but well .. we ll see .. i mean we also need good electric company s that will respect the right to repair ! .. tesla and zero are not doing well ... aptera is gonna be special .. ..
I don't want to be the guy who says "buell 2.0" but harley making better more modern motorcycles but failing to support the product properly despite what should be massive corporate resources to do so.
I agree. LiveWire Motorcycles should agree to upgrade and support HD LiveWire owners. It would go a long way to building credibility in the brand. Plus, those are the customers LiveWire needs to keep to sell more bikes in the future.
It's so good. I hope it flops so I can pick it up cheap soon.
His big mistakes were saving Livewire One cost $12,670 and then seeming not to understand English when the reporter called him out on it. If he understand English he would have corrected his mistake.
But the Livewire Del Mar price is in fact $16,999. Your wishful thinking that POTENTIAL cost savings can be taken off the MSRP are total NONSENSE. The price is what you need to hand over to take possession, not what you will do later to pay off the loan.
The movie and claim that GM killed the electric car is totally nonsense too. Everyone following Tesla since before Elon Musk bought it from the two original founders knows that tesla almost went bankrupt several times, and the ONLY reason its alive is because Elon saved it from certain death. The EV1 was just 20 years too early. Trying to continue that would not have saved them from bankruptcy.
GM actually funded the research that made Tesla even viable. They paid a research center who had Allan Cocconi design the 3-phase inverter for the Impact, which evolved into EV1. He and some others founded AC Propulsion and among other things made the T-Zero with a bunch of AGM batteries. Then the Martin Eberhard allegedly came uo with the totally ridiculous idea of putting a $60,000 battery in a $30,000 car. And the rest is history.
So only uninformed followers of EV’s really believe GM killed them. Its more plausible that Chevron killed them by buying the rights to large format NiMH cells which were the only battery viable for EV at the time and what EV1 used in the later versions. Eberhard figured that “economies of scale” would make the lithium ion batteries viable and even now 20 years later they are just now getting affordable.
May be a dumb question . But why did gm take back all the cars ? .. and why did they have to destroy them ? .. i cant follow your reasoning in this ..
@@gmy33, GM finished their test program and the EV1, like every EV made up to a decade later, was guaranteed to loose money. The decision to crush them was to get them simply for liability.
For one, a manufacturer needs to supply parts for their cars for 10 years. The expense of that alone for a car you aren’t making anymore is a lot.
Another huge liability is the battery. While the 16.5-18.7 kWh lead-acid batteries were probably not a huge risk, the later versions with 26.4 kWh NiMH can catch fire and easily get out of control. The cost of paying for a family being burned to death in their sleep, both financially and in image, was not worth leaving the EV1 out in the wild. These cars also had chargers that can add a lot of liability.
Some might ask, why not just remove the battery and sell them? Well thats even more risky. Of course those would have all been snatched up and then filled with whatever battery is most viable for the next 50 years. And while it would seem GM would not be liable, there are many cases where manufacturers are sued for things 100% beyond their control.
The documentary “Who Killed the Electric Car?” Would have been ok if they showed the electric starter for gasoline engines is what killed the electric car, which was truly alive in the early 1900s. And instead of explanation how GM spend lots of money starting with the Electrovair in the 1960s. It had a 3-phase AC motor but the inverter wasn’t solid state and the batteries were cost prohibitive. Then GM tried again with the Impact, which went on to become EV1. Same problem, no financially viable battery existed and Chevron ensured it would be another 20 years before one was.
Even today, as far as Tesla has made it, the tipping point still has not been reached for electric cars. That shows how much GM would have struggled trying to keep the public EV1 program going. But certainly they always had someone working on the solution.
If and when EVs reach the tipping point, hopefully someone can make a documentary about all the links in the chain that led to it, but without Elon Musk, there would be no Tesla company today, and Elon Musk wanted nothing to do with Tesla in the beginning because even he knew it was not viable at that time. And many links before Elon musk also were imperative.
@@imho7250 thanks .. its good to hear another side of the story !
In 2006, Rick Wagoner said, "Axing the EV1 electric car program," was his biggest mistake. So, you think it was Chevron buying a patent for NiMH batteries?
@@gmy33 GM took back the cars and destroyed them because they didn't think electric cars were a viable business. Instead, they bought Hummer.
200 mile range 8k then we talk
Sorry but most of your assumptions and your entire premise are bs, the biggest one is that battery is same as gasoline, it is actually an expensive tank to store the electrical energy which is the actually fuel … so the rest of your calculations based on your faulty premise are useless … I could go on but don’t really want to waste my time