Will Ashes of Creation ACTUALLY have 64 classes?
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
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Ashes of Creation is an open world MMORPG set in a fantasy environment where you can choose different classes and races to adventure through with your friends. Intrepid Studios is the developer behind the game. They’re technically an indie studio, but their creative director Steven Sharif has a clear vision for his video game: Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game. He wants to put the massive back in MMO. Exploring dungeons, griding for gear, crafting armor/weapons, learning new spells, and competing in large scale PvP battles. High end PvE such as raids will mainly occur in the open world. Bosses will spawn and roam through the land. Are YOU ready to enter the world of Verra?
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What a great video! Loved the diverse points of view and theorycrafting. Nicely done and great to see creators collaborating. 💪
It's honestly great to see you involved in the community Steven. if you are in fact Steven Sharif :)
Thanks Steven! We’ve got a great group of creators and I’m grateful for them helping me out.
@@NoahfromEarthhaha it is him. You can check the pinned official ashes video comments and it’s the same account
@@TheCopiumClinic Also great video
man, I really enjoy the topics you talk about.
This particular topic has been killing me thinking about how in depth all the classes will be and will they be beyond just a simple flavouring of the primary class.
I think you are doing a great thing for the community by enabling Steven and the team to see what some of the content creators and followers of ashes are thinking, about the direction and development of Ashes.
6:20 She is right. That never occurred to me.
Agreed, it's going to come down to how different and important each part of the game ends up being.
I'm glad to see someone agrees with me haha, it's really complex!
Imagine entire build based on naval combat. Ranged classes focusing on max shooting distance, melee focusing on gap closer range for easy infiltration on enemy ship, mages focusing on fire (if ships are weak to it), Summoners speccing into water based summons because they perform better on and in water...
There are 8 classes with a bunch of skill trees. You can respec your second "class choice", just as if it was a skill tree.
Sunny is absolutely right.
Yes 100% agree with Sunny just 8 classes with flavor text virtually.
IDK if y`all have ever played EvE online. The same ships can be built in a great many ways and behave very differently. People are working on the assumption that traditional balancing will be at the core of the system. If instead the Devs at intrepid work on strength/weakness tradeoff at the heart of the system then every choice will be meaningful and building a character will be more about what works for you than a overarching meta.
Any Meta will ebb and flow...
What's the build for? What season is it? What is the Node level at? What quests are available? What main story functions are active? What is the Mayor of your node wanting to develop the Town into? What are the dungeon Mobs like? What do you enjoy playing? How many builds will be good against your foes? What if changing a few abilities allows your foes to break your build's hold over them? ... Meta exists in other games because all these type of things are Static.
18:00 100% gets this right. Like when they showed off the Cleric tool kit. They showed way more heal skills then anyone would use. Thats because some of them were flavored by the sub class.
Gonna need the DVD set of Bespoke soon. Great stuff, brother!
Hahaha the extended edition is on the DVD set
I think a lot of class combos are depending on situations.
example: "We are going to fight this fire dragon in his fire related dungeon! Tank, Cleric, Bard? Get yourself the mage secondary class for the fire resistance!"
Or: "Siege Fight incoming! My raid: We gonna defend the wall! Everyone get tank as secondary! We need to hold this as long as possible! The second raid will flank the attackers!"
Or: "This is a DPS boss fight! I will change to secondary fighter with my main tank! We all need to do as much damage as we can to bring him down as soon as possible! Or the enrage will kill us!"
...
sure, there will also be "for this and that, this build is way better then others", but a overall "one fits them all build" is not going to work in ashes... Steven already confirmed this.
So we will always need to change our builds for differed situations.
But there will also be not so useful combinations I think.
A lot will also depending on "what's our group-setup? Oh, we're missing a range DPS here! Rogue? Can you please use ranger as secondary? Thanks man!"
The problem will all those guys is: the very most of them mostly played WOW. so their mindset is kinda stuck in WOW. We you say stuff like "Warrior" they kinda automatically think about the warrior in WOW. They don't even think 1blink of an eye about other games. There's nothing against playing WOW, but sometimes you need to think out of your box ;)
Play Guild Wars 1 for a while and experiment a bit with a 2 class system! Or play The Elder Scrolls Online for a bit and test the skill morph system - maybe you wanna play a melee mage in heavy armor with a twohanded sword?! Or play Guild Wars 2 with the dynamic event system! Or play on the only private Warhammer Age of Reckoning server and having fun at siege fights!
I always laugh when people say F*** the meta play whatever you like. But as soon as your "fun build" gets wrecked a handful of times and you lose all your flowers and ore I think a majority of players will start looking around for a more optimal way to play. We have seen it time after time. No one can deny that 🤣
I think as long as you're making a solid build that has a purpose and use case you can make an argument about going against the META but if you make a build which is just slapped together with no thought because it's fun, probably won't have fun for too long lol
@@TangentsofCreation Absolutely. Even the personal, fun builds need to be tested. If it doesn't work it just doesn't work. But stakes are higher in Ashes. I think people forget that. I don't want to work off exp debt from dying cause I really wanted to play the dual wand welding rogue 🤣
@@TangentsofCreation It's the "no thought" that's the problem. It is amazing how often the meta catches up to your own custom builds if you really give them attention & thought.
Personally I like to take the time to find my own way, and then really dive into that playstyle without bouncing between specs too much
@@jinglyjones1677 yeah 100% I've def had times when I've made a build, didn't share it and then all of a sudden I see so many people come to the same conclusion.
Honestly I think what's really fun is designing meta breakers. Finding those odd counters that no has thought about or expects to see!
@@TangentsofCreation definitely. Designing the builds around your own playstyle is a massive chunk of the fun for me, too
The one game nobody here mentions along the same vein with multiple class combinations is Rift. That game had awesome combinations between its different skill trees, but a Meta will always form. There will always be a group of Math guys that will figure out the Mathematical best way to do something. DPS/HPS will always be a contributing factor. Regardless of how things fall and how this 64 class system is implemented, People will gravitate to the path of least resistance. As long as Time spent is an aspect of gaming satisfaction, a Meta will always exist.
I think over time meta has evolved to mean the "right way" to play the game, or run the dungeon. And as of now, I think AOC will have so many different ways to build a character (class, augments, weapons, armor, factions, and personal goals), that there will not be a "right way" or meta that will have much of an effect on the game as a whole. But I suppose that will depend on how the devs design those building blocks. We will just have to wait and see. 👍
To be clear meta just means most effective tactics available. Assuming there's any mathematical difference between classes then there will be a meta pick. But I agree meta shouldn't be the right way for everyone. Hoping to see more games where people abandon the meta
I had tons of fun with this. Thanks for inviting me!
It was my pleasure. Lots more to come!
It will be like Archeage. you have like 12-16 viable meta builds and some niche builds. They said most of the augments will be templates. Like if you choose mage one of your movement abilities will transform into a teleport or a burning effect will be added to one your skills. But that will be the same for every class. doesn't matter if i'm a ranger or a fighter base class and add mage as a sub class.
Otherwise it wouldn't be manageable to develop 64 distinct classes
Didn't Archeage have over 200 classes, tho? And only 12-16 of them were viable meta builds??
That doesn't sound good at all.
@@allthatishere yes 220 possible class combinations. But most of them were bad even on paper. You had to pick 3 out of 12 Skill Sets do create your class. It is not entirely comparable to Ashes but the logic behind my expectation is the same.
I don't care about the meta at all. LOL
Me neither. I just do what I want regardless of anything else lol. Ideally I want to run a holy order and play police. Hunt down bandits, guard towns and routes, land and sea. And probably merc for armies on campaign.
No one should care about the meta. Especially in a game like this
Let's GOOOO! Thanks for the content.
Thank you so much for including me! I loved hearing everyone's thoughts!
Thanks for participating! More episodes to come!
A meta will develop, but I love the opportunity for off meta surprise. With so many options for customization, it will allow creativity.
Great stuff! Love to see all the different views. Strong opinions! Also, thank you for so kindly showcasing our inability to read a chart. We earned that. lmao.
Thanks for being such champs about my teasing. You guys are the best!
Ultima Online really got it right regarding skills (aka classes) when they launched. Worth looking at if you have a few minutes spare (haha as if a doctor has time spare).
A meta will definetely form: too many branches and posibilities for it not to do so, even if the 64 "classes" are only 8 classes with 8 flavors each, it's very likely that some combinations will be better than others.
That being said, I also believe there will be different metas that will form. The PvP meta, raid meta, siege meta, open sea meta, etc. So I don't mind some combinations being weaker than others, as long as they have a niche were they are at least viable. That being said, I hope Intrepid does a good enough job for people not to feel behind everyone else on most contexts, by balancing the different classes to at least a "viable" level. I for one will play a Charlatan and focus mainly on sea content, just because I think it's funny to be a rogue bard on a pirate ship, but god knows if that will even work.
Definitely agree with Chibi! I think the line will be blurred a lot more between what is / is not meta than other games. Lots to factor in between what type of armor, augments, racial etc. Suddenly it's not 'just what subclass you have' but everything else added into the mix! Great vid!
GW2 basically has 100s of classes when you consider how different each weapon and specialization plays. 9 classes, each class has 4 specs, and then there's 9 - 36 different weapon configurations per class, and the weapon skills are unique per weapon/class combination. I have different builds that are the same class and specialization, and they feel like different classes (fresh air sword/dagger power alacrity tempest vs fire hammer condi nuker, for instance) There's a meta, but you can also build your own character and have it be viable. I never looked at a build guide for scrapper and my first attempt at a build was getting top damage in PVE. You can also modify the meta build pretty heavily to your style without losing a ton of damage. So there's a meta, but it's not oppressive.
There’s nothing wrong with the 64 class system being predominantly cosmetic with a few mechanic/play style changes. Can’t wait to see what they come up with 😊
I think it's inevitable that there will be meta's to some extent, but with how Ashes is being designed I think those meta's won't be very overarching meta's that are just "this is the best build for all/most situations" like we see in a lot of games, but instead they will be more micro-meta's that are dependent on what your goal is, what activity you are doing, what you are fighting, the group composition and size you're fighting with or against, if it's pvp pve or a mix of both etc... People will always do the numbers and find out what is "stronger", but as there's so many moving parts in Ashes and so many variables, what is "stronger" will likely be very conditional. I think it will also just be nice for players to be able to slightly shift their class to better suit their individual playstyle or preferences using the secondary archetype and augments.
Intrepid have stated that this is the intention in the wiki too (unless that design choice has changed since), so hopefully with good enough balancing that is achievable. I don't expect every class to be competitive, that's just the nature of gaming; some things are stronger and others are weaker it's an impossible task to perfectly balance everything. However, I think there's a good chance that a lot of them are viable or competitive, at least to an extent. I expect that some classes or builds will be more flexible and be great in many different situations and that other classes or builds will be more niche and excel in more specific circumstances. This should make the game more conditionally focused around preparing or adapting to whatever your objectives or encounters are rather than there just being a defined overarching meta that doesn't shift much.
My hope, and what I get the impression of, is that the secondary augments will give a lesser version of the secondary classes core mechanic, to the primary classes core mechanic. The best example I could find was the Rogue. Supposedly, stealth is going to be one of the Rogues core mechanics, with the rogue being the only class that can perma stealth. So now you would add lesser stealth to select abilities to other classes. A Tank can dissapear to recover before suddenly reappearing somewhere else. The Cleric can apply a Heal over Time that only functions when the target stands still, durring which they are stealthed. The Summoner has a shadow creature that can turn invisible periodically, letting it function more as a DoT while it's invisible.
The Tank secondary could give taunt functionality to abilities, letting other classes better serve as disruptors (Imagine a rogue appears in the middle of a group, taunts them all, then disapears, forcing them to scatter/change focus/ waste spell casting time/ etc,). Maybe Mage secondary allow classes to teleport more than just themselves, or the fire aspect creates burning aoe effects where there once was single target. Bard secondary would allow buffs and debuffs in areas around themselves or their targets to inspire allies and lower enemy moral. Fighter has been described as an insanely mobile class, so maybe it lends that mobility to other classes. Hell even the Summoner could be more than "you have a pet" but instead create a mobile aoe of the primary classes mechanic, a mobile stealth cloud, a living fire storm, a walking projectile shield.
There's so many opportunities that don't even require a TON of creativity to accomplish. In fact with how modular intrepid has been treating so much of the rest of the game, I wouldn't be surprised if they treat the class system the same way as I described, where instead of looking at every ability to find a unique augment for each, there are a series of core mechanics for each class that can be applied to the other classes.
12:23 the warlock page on the wiki includes a quote from Steven using the example of a fireball that would instrad turn into a fire elemental that would chase the target and slow them down.
Unless you are as reductive as 'damage is damage' this is a dramatically different way to play the mage than those with a more traditional fireball - especially when you consider their other spells will be similarly modified.
Big guilds can still only field as many players as a small guild in any battle scenario, So I can guarantee a smaller group that works well together can easily defeat a large guild group where they have to draw straws to see who gets to participate in the battle.
This is only for the consensual PVP situations - big guilds will for sure still have a huge advantage in things like controlling caravan trade routes
Im not sure how so many people making content for this game does not get the sub classes. Lets take Dash on a fighter. Mage makes it a teleport. Meaningless? No, Fighter can not be targeted or damaged when dashing now. Same skill add Cleric. Now when they dash they get a minor damage shield. Add Summoner to a Fighter Dash, now when the Dash damage lands, Minions spawn at the targets feet that hold the target in place. Giving a short root effect. This is how this will work and meta will happen and it still wont matter.
Awesome vid, love the series. My 2 cents is this: you can’t get away from meta builds because no matter how careful the devs can be, the player base will take things to the next level and find all the bugs/exploits of builds. That said I want the flip side of the coin to be whatever combo you pick to have enough variety to stand on its own and bring something to the 40 person raid if you are the only one with that combo.
My take on augments is that if you go fighter/mage and you just add elemental damage to some abilities, that seems underwhelming to me. I don’t know where the line should be drawn, but just changing damage types seems so lazy and a cheap cop out.
I like Jamie's point about meta builds making mid players better. It's like following a recipe when cooking (irl). Until you're good in the kitchen sticking to the recipe is probably a good idea. If you ditch the recipe and do your own thing; polarising results. Either something special or a total disaster!
I love this series. Glad to be apart of it ♥️
Thanks for adding your characteristic Nyce charm to the series!
Not having damage meters will slow the meta, but people do love their min maxing. It's going to be a delicate balance for sure. If the augment from the subclass is too small, it won't been seen as important and people won't like it. If the augments change to much, you'll certainly increase the chances of a meta. Also, from experience, most metas these days form because some youtubers made a build that, while good, is meta only because people are too lazy to make their own builds so they copy the youtuber. I always see non meta builds that end up owning the meta builds, they just arent advertised.
Also, I don't believe there are 64 classes in the traditional sense. Its 8 classes where you pick a subclass that adds an augment. You are still fundamentally 1 of 8 of the classes.
Whats going to possibly overload us is the fact subclass isnt the only augment. Race, religion, weapon, also augment. It's going to be hard as hell to balance because of those things.
It was also said on the last stream there won't be PvE only servers. It's PvX, that's the only option.
Every CRPG only has 4 classes change my mind. Striker/DPS Tank Healer Crowd Control
My understanding is the 'subclasses' are merely augmenting a FEW skills. But yeah if it turns out that a certain type of ranged or mage character is OP, everyone will probably do that, otherwise they're taking a nerf off the bat. Depends on how big the buff/nerf is... but everyone loves to play meta.
I'm gonna love the 64 class system if they can flesh it out properly. It's gonna be fun seeing some of the rarer classes and how they're utilized.
Burns has returnedddd!!!
If there is a META, the players will find it. However, the META for my game play style will be very different from the META that you choose for your game play style.
Just an editing tip, you can cut down the video time by cutting out the question before every guest. Keep it for the first one then add a text graphic of the question :).
There is one thing nobody ever takes into account and that is the PVP. You are always in risk for PVP in Ashes of Creation.
A game where all classes can use any gear combination and have 64 class variations will never have a single meta.
The only thing I'd like changed is Ranger to Archer (just an example) so that each class starts with a different letter so that people can refer to them easily as TT(guardian), SB(enchanter) or FT(dreadnought).
Thanks Doc, excellent video as always.
I'm getting a funny feeling that Intrepid might actually intend to do more than just cross-class flavour text with the secondary classes. It seems like everyone is expecting "just a bit of flavour text" but keep in mind that Steven played ArcheAge as well and there you actually take on another class's cooldowns or passives. I'm not saying that's what we should expect from AoC's secondary classes, but I suspect that the secondary class will do more than simply change the types of damage the primary class does.
Maybe something like change a few primary class spells completely into something else, related to the secondary class. E.g. Protector (Cleric/Ranger) might be able to heal from twice the distance the High Priest (Cleric/Cleric) can but not quite as effective whereas an Apostle (Cleric/Tank) might be adding protection to his healing (WoW Priest bubbles, anyone?). A Templar (Cleric/Fighter) might passively heal his mates off of his attacks against the enemy.
The possibilities are endless once one sits down and really look at the core identities of the eight classes, both as a primary and a secondary class. What makes a Cleric a Cleric, a Bard a Bard and what would make a Cleric a type of Bard? Well, if Dr Burns suddenly starts singing during surgery, he'll most likely loose his license, but what if he becomes a RUclips sensation who creates thought provoking videos that allow the rest of us to gain scope of perspective (I'm going with "Bard" as an entertainer, which includes content creators in our world)?. Now we have a someone who approaches one topic (Ashes of Creation content) with methodologies learned/developed in the world of Medicine, quite a bit different from say, Narc's videos.
Anywho, just my 2c.
*Anyone who doesn't believe in the 64 Class system, has never played FF11, or FFTactics.*
*There won't be an overall Meta because there's too many variables, there can only be a Meta for a particular encounter.*
It's exciting to see the potential for 64 classes in Ashes of Creation! Can't wait to see how this unfolds.
Functionally there aren't 64 classes. There are 8. With 64 subclasses. The core of the class will remain the same. Its just slightly shifting flavour and focus.
My guess is that the 'meta' will be almost entirely based on what subclass effects look the coolest, because from a capabilities standpoint they'll all be fairly similar. With their differences only really coming into play in specific circumstances like a tank/mage hybrid being a slightly better choice when facing spellcasters because of an increased magic resistance.
The class i see it mattering the most for is the summoner, since they're already a jack of all trades class the shifted focus will somewhat solidify their role in one direction.
Hell yeah! Let's goooooo!
Fun chats and more to come!
Bard and templar are my first choices
Rift's multi-class system was slightly better than Archeage's imho
Enjoyed the video and all the different takes. I came over from @Loreforged but subbed here now too.
my take before watching, no, there wont be 64 classes but more like 32 morph options for your 40 abilities which will change them to various levels with some if not probably most likely only changing the vfx and damage types while others could do things as drasitc as change that fireball to a debuff spell that instead sends a wave of mental energy that crushes the minds of any hit by the spell. basically think eso classes but in FAR FAR FAR greater detail.
a meta will form techincally... the thing is, not all servers will get access to the same gear and if i remember right, there was talk of nodes possibly taking months to get to metropalis nevermind all the players who invest time in other nodes only for those ones to loose the race to a different neighboring node and subsequently all those players get funneled into the node that leveled the fastest meaning what gear that is availble to will be drastically different as both the recipies and matierals to make the max gear will vary based on what quests can be completed and what nodes level the fastest with we would likely spend months on just a single node as many would want the gear avalible from it before swapping to a different node and if siege battles jump to allowing 1000 v 1000, no one guild will be able to force a metropalis node switch as they see fit as the masses will make their choice of which nodes to defend or let die. beyond all of that ashes is looking to have 2 major things that would kill any meta from forming being that 1, they are STRONGLY leaning into the trinity system which wont kill meta builds from forming on its own but heavily limits what can be meta from specialization to specialization and more importantly, they are planning to build their bosses around a trinity system with full raid squads of 64 players as the max (yes not all but the top teir content at leat will be this) meaning that there not only will be more freedom for each person to be less optimal and make more rp/thematic builds than a game like eso with groups of 4 to 12 where you have like 3 healers and tanks maybe meaning one of them sucking or having a bad build is FAR more noticable and hurts WAY more but also, the bosses will be built around having resitances to meet meaning some bosses will require fire or lightning or will have real proper health checks requiring true tanks or maybe be built around agility meaning tanks that are almost all just off tanks techincally who can be mobile even if they are less tankey are the better call to having healing checks that will need the best healers and or double clerics with ressurection abilities to bring your team back after basically scripted wipes and so on and so on meaning TEEEECHHHHNINAALLLY each boss will have its own meta and especially each area but even than you cant really call it that and there wont be guides really to give the best gear loadouts and build setups because flat out, that would only work for the people on YOUR server while the gear you are using is still avalible unless you wanna suggest they fork over millions of gold to get just the fucking belt buckle of the gear set which your video would tell everyone to be getting anyways only making it MORE valuble.
1:48 well tbf the talk i remember about this very thought a few years ago had the team basically making clear that IT WILL NOT save you 100% or even come close to replacing a healer but more like is a way to make it easier on healers to have to focus on your slightly less as well as letting you self sustain in content without healers at least a bit better like if your group decides to take on a smaller 6 man dungeon but couldnt get a healer on for it, it will help ya both between and during fights to have this because than you dont need to go into fights nearly dead with either no heals or only after having used all the pots you guys brought with you.
2:05 thats the thing though. these also very likely will be affected GREATLY by what sets you wear so maybe you come across a set of heavy armor that grants you near inviniciblity on long casts while playing a mage tank who goes a megumine route with defense buffs as well as the tanks steallar dmg output also possibly granting increased damage at the cost of speed ESPECIALLY for the damage heavy mage meaning that set is fucking amazing for ya or hear about this fucking AMAZING mage garb thats all class and will DRASTICALLY boost all fire damage to the point that even the supporiest support player can match your damage dealers dps and so go cleric mage with the fire augment on everything.
all in all i feel like it will be like dnd where your dm wont add any gear sets you specifically ask them to meaning you gotta not ask and just hope you come across the right thing for your build with no guarantees of what you will come across.
3:24 simple, add gear sets that aid certain augments with special abilites like one that maybe makes a swarm of crows and boosts all shadow damage to enemies who are in the swarm or maybe making you breath fire in a wide cone and suddenly all enemies hit by your fire are hit with the burning status effect BUT if your last ability used was using the fire augment, it actually also make them all burst for a mild amount of damage each BUT in a aoe so if they are too close, they all basically nuke themselves or having one that doubles the effects of all healing but also lowers the damage output after having been healed by 2 to 5% for like 3 to 5 seconds afterwords. its what eso even is starting to do with class sets and is only a shame that their system where everyones a walking god only needing 1 ability to beat all vet dungeons solo and that it came so late made it not really save eso esepcailly with ashes 2024 alpha 2 announcement making people like me just drop eso like a sack of shit....
8:29 thats like saying wanting to remove paper from tic tac toe is trying to remove something CRUCIAL to 'what it is' with technically your right but your also not considering that you can play tic tac toe on a whiteboard or tablet or black board or the side walk or certain octopus-themed vtubers foreheads.... like just gotta look at the whole of what ashes ACTUALLY is aiming to be before saying that and honestly im kinda done cause i feel like im just going to keep repeating myself to people who dont have enough ability to visualize what bread that was standing up on its own falling over would look like XD
Tank rogue will duel wield shields.
Since it's PVX and there's multiple areas of the game that are all intertwined there will be multiple metas (One for battle grounds, one for raids, one for open world PVP one for levelling e.c.t). Example; I make an open world PVP/large scale PVP Rogue that is completely built around only being the best at that one thing. Even if I change My build to go Raid or something I won't have experience playing it, so some People will opt to sacrifice being good at everything else to be top dog at one thing.
And an overall meta meaning builds that do well in all or most areas of the game, which will be Cleric and Bard and Tank in that order.
The question imo is essentially is there going to be balanced pvp and to some extent metas for the trinity that will out shine the others. When you have two equal players in a 1v1 playing healer vs tank, dps vs healer, dps vs tank etc.. it will more then likely be a paper rock sissors scenario.
The only way that you will see a balanced 1v1 is if you can balance the trinitys which would imo only water down the entire idea of a trinity.
I think complexity and depth of class mechanics are going to be key when dealing with so called "meta" builds. As long as there is room to innovate and keep coming up with different type of playstyles that are 80-90% effective as Meta, I'll be happy.
I think Augments will actually change/add to your primary abilities, not simply be flavor/color. Ex: Bard may have an ability to buff allies within 10m by increasing their move speed +10% for 20 seconds. If you augment with Cleric, the ability will additionally include a +1% heal/second. If you augment with Fighter, it will add a +5% physical damage buff. These augments create fundamentally different playstyles. On one hand, you can turn a bard into someone that can take on the role of a healer in the party, albeit not as good as a true cleric. And alternatively - because items are not class locked - you can build a Bard/Fighter that can play the role of melee DPS with support buffs. Sure, they won't do as much damage as an actual fighter, but they'll make the rest of your party do more damage as well so the total DPS added by including them in the party might be just as good as having another Fighter. I think the augment system will create fundamentally different playstyles & roles for your Archetype.
Sunny has it right I believe, the archetype changes are more like specializations from wow if anything.
3:55 literally me 'acid flask is a trap skill' me: rocking auto casting acid flasks like a champ on early acces..
Then they added the falkoner and acod flask was one of the dominant builds - oh this sucks now i want to try something else....
I cant wait to make content on this game when Alpha 2 comes out lol
It would be fun if you didn’t pick your class, just have 16 skills to choose from when you add to your skill bar. 2 from each archetype. After you pick your first 2 skills the other 14 disappear and the trees of the 2 you chose appear and you now have your class.
makes sense for ranger/tank not being great combo but as long as primary classes are all well put tegether and 2nd class just adds characteristics of the main class all classes should be fine and playable ofc u gonna have combos that are better at solo play or pds.. most of the classes should be something unique thats my point and not that ranger/fighter plays the same as ranger/Summoner
Given Rogue primary is the only way to have stealth, I’m definitely going Rogue. It’s too early to decide on the secondary but right now I’m leaning Predator.
Do not freak out about these, an archer + tank will most likely just be an archer that has higher defensive stats, more health, maybe less harsh punishment on your attack or movement speed for wearing plate for example. What it will not be is an archer with a shield.
I do think the claim of 64 classes is a little odd, but that's more of a semantics issue really more than anything lol
But I'm going to really enjoy the thought and effort that's going to go into "what 1st/2nd archetypes mixed with what weapons will I use" considerations is going to make for a really engaging way of playing how you want and still finding ways to be viable
Though i'm still sure with high-end content there will absolutely still be people who only want specific classes and archetypes for specific tasks
The talking about Meta don't mean much. Sorry do t know his name, the guy with the beard. 2nd guy interviewed here. He's spot on. If I find something I enjoy playing, I get good at it. Doesn't matter the meta. If Ashes isn't gonna have a dps meter. Then I say it really doesn't matter much. Sure theirs times a certain class and build does more damage then another. But I won't play it, if I don't enjoy it! I remember playing Rift and I was running a Bard. People thought I was cheating in pvp. Most bards got waxxed in pvp. They Did Not Play Them Right!!
I hope it really boils down to more of a skill gap like for the “meta” build ranger summoner for PvP but if ur playing a experienced player on a ranger ranger he can clap ur cheeks with spacing and timing and be rewarded for being good at the game rotation decision making exct.. what I don’t want is you don’t stand a chance no matter ur skill if ur using this class VRs that class combo
A meta will form 100% because players tend to want everything in the easiest way possible and not in the most skilled way. I am speaking out of experience because i was the best tank in an MMO for 10 years give or take a few months which meant i played the class in the most skilled way possible which actually allowed me to stay undefeated in 1v1s in my whole "career" if you wanna call it like that because i was so skilled and didnt play the weaker meta build
From what i saw its basically Titan Quests 2 Mastery System, since every combination has its own name there too. And Titan Quest had more combinations even.
Im not a fan of such a system, because you always feel that there is no designed gameplay behind those classes and they have no identity.
I suspect a fighter will always play like a fighter, a mage always play like a mage. And augmentation will probably not impact playstyle so much as to call the mix of 2 classes a new class.
8 archetypes with 8 flavors of each = 64 classes...works for me by AOC's definition. Keep up the content; thank you!
IDK if y`all have ever played EvE online. The same ships can be built in a great many ways and behave very differently. People are working on the assumption that traditional balancing will be at the core of the system. If instead the Devs at intrepid work on strength/weakness tradeoff at the heart of the system then every choice will be meaningful and building a character will be more about what works for you than a overarching meta. Most people are approaching their theory crafting with `fantasy brain` instead of looking at great ideas in other kind of MMOs. In AoC with 64 potential variations in base construct, 6-8 or more damage types, no limitation to armor or weapon type being wielded, node bonuses, guild bonuses, other kinds of `secret society` and even race reputation bonuses there will be near limitless ways to build your character effectively. I suspect anyone using a meta will be pretty mid as a player.
Personally I think there will be one meta per core classes.
I hope I am wrong.
i think will be 2 per core. the typical dmg one and a "original" one (like debuff stack or something).
A game i feel people often forget existed before trions greed ruined it with the p2w. Rift had the choice of combining 3 separate archetypes to form your true class. It had roughly 64 combinations. Metas get created by the playerbase rather than it actually being presented by the game itself.
I heard good things about Rift.
im thinking of goin for shadow summoner, shadow mage, death mage, shadow bard, death bard, and shadow cleric, death cleric as the combos i wanna try at the start cause i love edgey shit thats over the top edgy and lets me just have fun with my Lincoln park music and shit while than just acting comletely normal like viva la dirt leagues skits about the dark lord who chose the path of good XD
The game seems to be heavily inspired by Archage 2 so I imagine it will be very similar to it for the class system
Your fun matters more than the meta. Until you can’t find a group or break into runs because you don’t fit the desired meta. Happens in so many games. Unfortunately MMO means cooperation needed.
Reality is nearly all pure classes will be the meta. A tank tank is the tank youll always want as a main tank. Maybe 1 off tank in a raid but the rest will be tank x2. Healers? Yeah all healer x2 "maybe" an off heal if it has more hots but again 1 spot. Dps you can probably get away with more just depending but if one Dps is best then the dips will all be in that like if mage is best melee then mage x2 or mage/warrior or mage/rogue or mage/ranger all might be ok but the dip will be mostly towards that one. So yeah their will be probably 12-16 playable class combos with like 40 that are just not seen much. But they'll all have their hardcore communities. I'm playing a battlemage and a cultist regardless of the meta.
9:10 what if what I find fun is cooperation with randoms, but nobody wants me in their party because I have a non meta build. We've seen that recently in helldivers 2, to the point that even tho it's a low stakes pve game made to have some mindless fun, people were kicking eachother off lobbies because they would not play in a specific meta way, 2 weeks into release no less. I get saying "fuck the meta" but if it's only you saying that then you'll be playing a single player game.
Even if there is 64 or a billion classes there is always a mathematical meta.. It will just take longer to find it.
Another great video! I think after playing Rift for its entirety Steven chose the best route with augmenting the core classes. I say this because once Rift starting adding classes things got way wonky and OP. Your core classes were crap and weren't viable, in other words if you wanted to compete you had to change your play style to survive, which I hated.
I'm not a raider, WOW ruined that aspect of the game for me. I had to kill the Baron friking 69 times to get one piece of gear from a drop....yeah...f that mess. I will go about two times to a raid dungeon that's it...then it becomes boring to me, and I will go do something else. I loved battlegrounds in Wow and in Rift. But now since players can craft top tier stuff, I don't mind paying them for their hard work.
Sorry went off on a tangent there....all in all just make the 64 viable and not some throw away class that gets overlooked. As long as I can play the style I want and it be meaningful to compliment the group then I'm more than happy. Just got to let them cook.
Keep the great vids coming!
Good video but for the love of god that bg music was annoying.
Will there be a META ? yes, but it might be harder to find/confirm without a dps or healer meter (happy about that).
noone brings up armor and weapon choice to this question. is a cleric/cleric so much different then cleric/bard? if both stand back line and speam heal/buffs maybe not. but what if i am cleric/warrior put on heavy armor and go into front line ? totaly different
Meta is not every time correct or the best build. Sometimes a popular guy o many guys found a build that seems to be the best and people just copy that build and play it , but maybe there are other builds that works even better but none found that build or that combination. In my opinion you just have to experiment and find a build that works for you because maybe a "bad" build in your hands is very good because match your playstyle
I think it will be a flowing Meta, this week it’s meta A, then all of a sudden Meta B crushes A, so everyone swaps, then Meta C is discovered and crushes B.
I am hoping secondary’s are more impactful of your character than what i think it will.
Great content Dr. please keep it up!
Meta builds are for sub-par players with no creativity. I usually find a class, and play it how it's not supposed to be played. I've done some fun combinations, and a few times i've done some godlike ones that nobody could understand lol... Even ended up building a great healer build in MOII once, and people started copying me. It became a meta...
You do know what META means, right? Meta builds are for anyone who takes the game even semi-seriously. If it's a strict meta, the devs failed at balancing.
While it is cool to mess around and find unorthodox ways of playing a class, I know for a fact that you aren't anywhere near as good or effective as you think you were. Usually when someone plays a off-meta build and is "good", is often because they are carried hard by their buddies or their equipment is powerful and so min-maxed to hell they could reach some level of viability.
This. The people who experiment with different ways to do things are the ones that ultimately define the meta.
I have literally been yelled at and called a noob for some of my strategies only for them to become something everyone does a month later (and by then I've moved on to a different strategy).
I think all will be viable. i DONT think they will be meta at the same time or in the same aspect. There will be PVP, PVE, PVX, Dungeon, Raid, Siege, I believe there will be metas for every aspect of the game but not one meta for the entire game. You have to have some type of meta and also meta counters. I dont think you can have this many classes and not have a meta. The question is whats the meta for your direction through content or through the spectrum of content you want to focus. I think of it as rather than 64 classes it wil be 8 classes with wildly different play styles due to augments.
It should be noted in Ashes of Creation in their Showcases they are aiming for different classes to have synergy with each other.
It is possible a Tellsword might offer a buff that makes other classes and pets have increased crit chance on normal melee attacks. A class with a lot of pets with normal melee attacks, like a Necromancer, would benefit well from such a buff.
Problem arises when you get passed over for groups because you are not running the meta or Bis gear
There shouldnt be class mixing. Let each class have a small ability to perform base skills from other classes.
The reason why meta is exists because of the people who likes to share their OP build and i hate that why people dont make their own build? Is it that really hard to do? Im curious
Because they just want to be told what's the best its not hard to figure out.
I have a friend who refuse to play a game until I tell them if its fun to play and what builds are good or guns/skills etc.
He doesn't want to put in the work he just wants to play the game with 0 effort and 0 thinking. Click button or buttons and stuff dies and he doesn't die.
This isn't a hard concept to understand
idc bro, I just want to be a giant mofo with big muscles, a funny face, full tank build, literally as full tank and mathematically possible, just a wall of iron, and walk around calling myself the Milkynator
Will Ashes of Creation ACTUALLY have A RELEASE DATE?
Ahhh the title for my next video!
8 classes with 64 modification
06:20 "Meta for what?" is not a good point. It only feels like a good argument, because we don't know enough about the game.
The answer will be something alongside: Meta for killing npcs and players as quickly as possible. Just like in any other similar mmo.
EVERQUEST 2 PVE DID IT BEST, EVERY CLASS HAD A COUNTER BUILD AGAINST IT
Spellsword.
There is 8 classes with 64 Augments for the 8 classes by picking a sub class. Other augments will change your class like the religion you join. It wont be a unique 64 classes. 100% flavor.
The warlock page on the wiki describes changing a fireball into a fire elemental that chases the target and continuously attacks them and slows them down.
You don't think that changes the way the class plays compared to a mage with a more standard fireball?
That's true. If you're a mage and subclass fighter you'll be in melee more that's not just flavor you'll have new abilities. Tank/cleric you can now heal like a paladin that's not flavor that's massive game changing mechanics. It's definitely not just flavor.
I think in a thoroughly solved game, there's a place for meta, because it represents actual knowledge, tried & tested.
Issue is, people are so hungry for this that a "meta" will exist within a week. Anyone following that is a sheep idiot who is only ruining the experience for themselves
64th view, coincidence? I think not!
Outstanding as usual, I prefer to think outside the box myself and personalize to my own playstyle like @jamiekaos. If they do a good job with the secondary augments that could really shake things up!
No big guilds do not take over. Big alliances take over. Ive played enough pvp games to know zerg guilds are trash filled with noobs. Zerg guilds are non-factors.
If it turns out to be like Sunny version, I am ditching the game. Main selling point for me is 64 classes.