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What was the SPELLPLAGUE? | D&D Lore
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- Опубликовано: 25 апр 2017
- Episode 13 - The Spellplague, World Cosmology and 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons. The spellplague was the world changing event for Faerun that pushed D&D from 3.5 into 4th edition. Most hate what happened to the realms, but the spellscarred options for players I found interesting!
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References:
Dungeons Master's Guide (5e) -
www.amazon.com...
Manual of the planes 4th edition -
www.drivethrurp...
Forgotten Realms Campaign guide 4e -
www.drivethrurp...
The Plane Below 4e edition -
www.drivethrurp...
Spellplague: The Wailing Years - forum.candlekee...
The Plane Above 4e -
www.drivethrurp...
Yes I know that's Mask and not Cyric 😉
#MistakesHappen
4e is from what I have been told from vids on other dnd channels, is basically it's own separate continuity, much like new52 in dc that went into dc rebirth
Mask is way better than Cyric any day!
So... Mystra got killed by Helm. Her power reincarnated into an amulet that was born by a woman called "Midnight."
Midnight took the name Mystra, I guess to inherit her followers. And then Cyric, who inherited his power from Mask who had taken the form of a sword. Cyric, who has used the sword form of Mask which he called Godsbane, to kill the gods murder and lies. So at somepoint Cyric becomes Mask? And then he killed Mystra 2 also?
@Sepher Agon special place in the Abyss for you little shits
Be polite jorp
This is literally the paragraph in Waterdeep Dragon Heist on the Spellplague in the Volo pamphlet (gives pcs background before they start the adventure):
“In the Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR), the Spellplague gripped the world. None knew it at the time, but it has since been divined that Cyric’s long hatred for Mystra boiled over and led to his murder of the goddess of magic. I was absent from the world at this time - indisposed by the force of an imprisonment spell. Elminster has since explained the events to me, but I must confess that much of what he said made little sense. It was a long lecture having something to do with stars, ‘crystal spheres,’ and ‘demiplanar reality mirrors.’”
Even Volo from Volo’s Guide to Monsters is confused by the Spellplague
Crystal spheres? Like those of the spelljammer setting? Hmm… I had been thinking for some time how to rectify this spellplague for some reason affecting the outer planes, but now I wonder….
The Spellplague was one of the worst design decisions I can ever remember of any company making since "New Coke". I could have probably handled 4th edition okay, if they hadn't decided to warp/screw up the Forgotten Realms while they were at it. And, probably the icing on the cake, was advancing the timeline of the FR by 100 years, which was utterly pointless and killed off 90% of the "interesting" people in the Realms. And for what purpose? They then had to resort to a bunch of gimmicks (like they did with Volo and Minsk and Mirt, and all the rest) to explain how some of the humans are still kicking around 100 years later.
ARGH. I wish they'd have split that timeline off instead of this nonsense about two worlds separating and blah blah blah.
@@jakedunnegan that's the beauty of it, you can still play 3.5 and earlier editions if you want to 👌🏼
@Jake Dunnegan
Me, a Warhammer fan: cries in End Times.
"It changed the face of Toril forever." Well, at least until the next edition.
It's weird how the fabric of reality in FR changes every few years only for nothing in the world at actually really change.
Shar: “Sorry about the spellplague, everyone.”
Cyric: “Yeah, that was us...”
Hey jorphdan could I play in a game of yours if I made an assassin named “PH”...you know because the ph is silent
200 likes and a ❤️ and no comments???
We need 2 more people. 1 named Jor and another named Dan.
@@mykelvelasco244 I’m already Dan!
Awesome!
@@mykelvelasco244 I'll play a bear totem barb Named Jor Ah Mormont 😂
Azuth wasn't fully devoured by Asmodeus either. He managed to survive and their two personalities were locked in a struggle within Asmodeus' body, and the god of wizards managed to break free during the Second Sundering (with external aid).
He didnt break free, Asmodeus made a deal to have him be separated.
@@DpadProductions Azuth was already fighting Asmo for dominion over the shared body, to the point that the hierarchy of the 9 hells was at risk of being subverted. One of the reasons Asmo made the deal probably was that trying to keep Azuth prisoner was too much of a hassle. Which is why I said "managed to break free (with external aid)", though I agree that my wording might have been somewhat misleading.
I know a lot of people hate the Spell plague because it changed up the whole cosmology and the world, and Im glad it's more or less back to normal with 5e. However, I think the story is really cool. We hear so much about mortal affairs. When the Gods fight, it's epic.
Just a couple things. It has been recently revealed that Mystra wasn't really killed. She had foreseen the Spellplague, and tried to turn the events to her favor. She knew that the Weave had been worn out by the reckless spellcasting that had characterized the Age of Upheaval--and before--and that it needed to be rebooted as part of a cylcle. However, since Mystra *is* the Weave, she needed to "die" and then be reborn with it. So, when Cyric and Shar attacked her, she already had backup plans. A lot of her power was lost, but she wasn't dead. She hid part of herself into a bear in the King's Forest in Cormyr, ensuring her survival and that of the Weave.
The Weave itself wasn't destroyed--if it had been, per "Magic of Faerun" all the raw magic energies in Faerun would have quickly evaporated in a magic burst that would have put the Spellplague to shame, and would have rendered Toril magic-less--but reduced to strands, where many souls and even deities (formerly believed dead) had been hidden. For example, Mystra saved Eilistraee and Vhaeraun from Lolth by hiding them within the Weave. Once the Second Sundering came (about 1 century later), Mystra ordered Elminster to gather as much bluefire as possible and then bring it to her, to restore her. After further magic was used to repair the Weave in the following years (the mythal of Myth Drannor and the Wards of Candlekeep), it was restored and "rebooted" and all that were hiding within it were set free.
Yes! I've been reading about this for a future video. Thanks so much for the info! Is that the story of "The Herald" or another Greenwood novel?
It's been revealed in Elminster Enraged, then expanded upon in Spellstorm. Mystra's full return happens in the Herald, tho. Ed has also personally provided explanations in his answers over the Candlekeep forums
However, keep in mind that most of those info come in the form of short lines cattered throughout his novels, along many other info about what's going on in the Realms post/during the Sundering.
The FR Wiki has an up-to-date Mystra page, but it doesn't include the fact that she planned the reboot of the Weave. It also includes an up-to-date Second Sundering page, if it can be useful to you.
it is useful! I actually found the second sundering page on the wiki just before you post. Hastily reading and re-reading. I might finish the herald soon, but I doubt I'll have time to read those past Greenwood books ~.~; I need 30 hour days.
Your explanation of the changes in the Realms' cosmological outlook is detailed and really good. I tried for a long time when 3e dropped to sort all that nonsense out, and wound up throwing my hands in the air and just keeping with Planescape's cosmology. Your description lends itself to some interesting new ideas, and I thank you for that!
The Elemental Chaos always struck me as a prime's description of Limbo--perhaps that helps explain what's going on there?
Cyric was only imprisoned under house arrest for 1000 years...so we should be seeing him in about 2385 DR. Anyone interested in these divine events should read the Empyrean Odyssey novels where characters witness the events first hand in the planes.
I actually really like the concept of spellscarring. I may have to introduce something similar to that in my game.
I remember the whole thing being confusing. Because all those other planes connect to other worlds, so it never made sense how all the planes could be affected by what happens to gods in Faerun. And not even necessarily the entire world of Toril since what happens in Faerun doesn't seem to affect some other parts of Toril, like Kara-Tur.
As my DM said: “First rule of The Spellplague: We don’t talk about the Spellplague.” XD
I'm very curious about the whole "Asmodeus throwing the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos" part. I hear this tidbit a lot, but it leaves a few questions unanswered.
1) How did Asmodeus get enough power to do this? Azuth was just a lesser deity, and even then Asmodeus wasn't totally in control of his power. Throwing away an entire plane, especially one as powerful as the Abyss, seems very difficult for a single lesser god.
2) What exactly did this accomplish? You'd think the demons of the Abyss would be right at home in something that has chaos in its name. Did this make it harder for demons to access the rest of the worlds? And didn't Asmodeus secretly benefit from the Blood War as a means of harvesting souls, so wouldn't he want to keep it going? (Is it possible that throwing away the Abyss was actually an action taken by his Azuth half? I think I've seen some sources that say Asmodeus had the power to end the Blood War but kept it going for his benefit, so Azuth could have overtaken Asmodeus to interrupt that.)
3) If throwing the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos was beneficial and practical for a single god to do, why wasn't it done earlier? Asmodeus definitely wasn't the only one who hated demons.
4) What is Asmodeus doing now that the Abyss is in the Elemental Chaos and presumably a lesser threat?
5) (EDIT) Wait, wasn't the Abyss originally formed by Tharizdun and the Shard of Evil in the Elemental Chaos? How did it get moved away from there in the first place? I forget which cosmic event led to the Great Wheel Cosmology, but was the Abyss returned to the area it originally came from, the Elemental Chaos?
I look at it as in the beginning the elemental chaos was made into different planes, and now they're back together.
I like that outlook on it, I’m gonna make that my head canon
Could also be a wobbly timey wimey thing
Mystra's always being gunned for... jeeze.
She's the goddess of magic. Of course those who crave power are going to want to usurp her!
Well, she's the popular girl in the popular girl clique.
Mystra is a baby compared to the other gods, in her current incarnation, so she's seen as an easy target due to her inexperience.
Every time they change editions they say "hey let's kill Mystra"
@@kendrajade6688 Mystra every time she dies: *"wHEN WILL YOu LeARN, wHEN WILL YOu LeARN, tHAt youR aCTiOns HAvE cONSEQUENCES"*
"Spellplague was a mistake." - Hayao Miyazaki
"Spellplague was a mistake." - Shar
"Spellplague was a mistake." - Lady of Pain
And then they made 5th edition, effectively ret conning 3rd and 4th edition, they kept the things that they made while sober and removed the things they made while drunk/high etc.
@@johnjustjohn5866 Until the next group of geniuses comes along to fix what isn't broken and 'leave their mark' on the setting.
@Danite Ghost #CyricDidNothingWrong
Jorphdan, these are great! I've never wanted to get back to playing D&D so bad before. I wish I had a group to play with.
I was so bummed when Wizards decided to go in the direction of Spellplague. I used to spend hours as a kid looking at maps of Faerun and all the cities, and when Spellplague happened, it was like they destroyed a world I spent so much time in and liked so much...
Then the Sundering came, and all is back to how it was before :P
They rant and maybe leave, but the rest go on. Warhammer did it and is more successful for it.
I guess you should reconsider your definiton of "evolution of the storyline". The Spellplague (and the late 3e changes, which were engineered towards 4e) 1)warped, violated, or ignored a lot of the previous lore, stories, and world-building that had gone into the Realms--it even completely disrespected some characters, especially deities 2)It consisted of a bunch of deus ex machinas (again ignoring all that had been built before, by people who cared) that had 0 to do with evolution of storyline, and everything to do with WotC's editorial mandate, due to their attempt to grab "fresh blood" with very aimed changes. In fact, a lot of the depth and variety of the Realms was thrown out of the window with those changes, WotC's very goal was exactly that: streamlining the setting 3)specifically removed an immense amount of iconic element of the Realms, that were (and are, now that they are all back) enjoyed by the fans of the setting, introducing plenty of subtractive changes, but adding very little in return, and building nothing on it (only the late 4e started building on the very few things that were added, and 5e retained--at least in part--some of those things--like Evan's detail of the dragonborn culture).
4e FR was a marketing stunt: WotC needed more customers, they tried to target a wider fanbase and were willing to lose their current fans for that. They however lost the gamble. With 5e, they also did the same, but this time they seem to have won their gamble.
Erasmus Burger 4e FR was a failure for WotC. As I said above, they threw away so much of what its (back then) current fans loved about it, in an attempt to streamline the setting and hopefully grab more people. The way they did it was a bunch of editorial mandated changes, all of them really heavy handed, all of them subtractive changes, all of them aimed to disconnect the Realms from what its authors had built. In no way the Realms could have been better for that. The authors themselves spoke against those changes, but WotC wasn't willing to listen. And that went *wrong* for them, the backlash was huge, to the point that 4e was the edition with the shortest lifespan to now, and that they decided to undo nearly every single change.
Yes. Sounds a lot like the Warhammer Fantasy Battle to Age of Sigmar transition.
Well the whole multiversal destruction thing was actually an illusion: FR is simply not that important.
If Shar had managed to damage the real multiverse, ten thousand deities from all the worlds in all the thousand crystal spheres would have converged on Toril and ended it, mortal and deity alike.
Clueless Primes never know what's what, berk.
Better than the pretentious squatters in the great train station of the multiverse who think because the Lady doesn't Maze them on their ass that they're better than everything else and that the prime material plane is the "boring" place, I wish an arrogant native of Sigil got dumped on a Spelljammer and get a taste of how big and diverse and incredible the prime material plane actually is!
My knowledge of The Planes stems from PlaneScape D&D 2E expansion kit. Awesome kit! Wish I still had it! Then I quit playing and never knew any 3rd edition stuff. Wasn't until 4E that I picked up again and saw that some things had changed. Thanks for explaining why Demons and the Abyss are now located in the Elemental Chaos. I guess when it comes down to it, each DM can create their own multiverse explanations to fit their campaigns. D&D kind of has its creation mythos stemming from the Aboleths. I have a hard time trying to make ends of how creation came to be if the Aboleths were the first in the universe and never created...
The Great Wheel is the form of the D*D verse that deserves attention.
We run a pathfinder campaign set in forgotten realms and we are about to experience some version of the spell plague, but our DM has said he won't make us go through 10 years of blue fire and nonsense. So I'm interested to see where this is going?
Helen Raymond 9 months old but I'm curious what your DM did
I think the reason you couldn't find Limbo in 3e is because the writers thought DM's couldn't handle it! Think about it... it's a world of ultimate DERAILMENT for any campaign! The players might as well just get drunk and throw dice at each other for the rest of the session!
Games Workshop was able to do it with the warp.
You know what I think whenever I hear about the cosmology or history of Forgotten Realms?
God I love Eberron.
Yeah I was trying to come up with a character for a forgotten realms campaign and I hated it, it’s simultaneously too generic for me to have some part of the world that sparks inspiration for cool character ideas, but it’s simultaneously has too much background baggage to be a good blank slate to paint my own ideas on.
Abir was given to the Primordials and what not when the second sundering happened and thats how we got the planes once again? It is also because of Wizard's over sight mostly because Wizard's wanted to push 4e out as fast as possible and all the Spellplague stuff was poorly drawn out. 5e is the apology tour
Apology tour indeed!
And 5E was also rushed out, with confusing terminology, gaps in certain abilities and mechanics, and a completely broken and useless CR system.
Shar should've never snatched Selûne's weave.
Mystra's weave.
the tea has been spilt
@@petrameyer1121 Mystryl's Weave
That bit regarding the elemental chaos seems like a lapse in continuity (after all, wasn't the elemental chaos what Tharizdun the O.G. mad god plunged the seed of evil into in order to form the Abyss?)
I really like the way you described this. As a dm, I've always preferred the great wheel over the other. So I use the wheel, even post-spellplague. Your videos are great, they inspire me to make videos of my own. I wanted to go over ad&d planescape, as I've recently acquired a planes of chaos kit from a second hand store
You should do viedos on the Tuigan invasion, the Threat from the Sea, the history of the dales, the Chosen (not just of Mystra), and Realmspace (the Sea of Night). Keep it up!
First video of yours I’ve ever watched (New DM looking to build his lore knowledge). You get a like just for the intro alone.
“The ‘ph’ is silent.” 😂😂😂
Lol thank you! Enjoy the videos sir, welcome to the channel 🙂
It is interesting to see how the cosmological models end up lining up to give the current understanding of planar cosmology. I skipped 4th edition and never got heavily into FR during most of 3rd, so in 5th I've been re-discovering it and what's been happening. Throughout my 2nd edition I was mostly homebrew and borrowed heavily from everywhere, but all the old video games were FR and I read novels which were FR, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer. I also had some 2e Ravenloft, Mystara, and Planescape. 3e was Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and homebrew for me, and I played in one FR game that didn't last long. I've picked up little bits about the Spellplague and The Sundering from 5e sources.
Hey man! Love the channel! Keep up the good work! This is a great resource for my new FR players!
Thanks! Happy to see it's becoming a solid resource for others :D
Simple rule of D&D: Ignore EVERYTHING the Wizards of the Coast have EVER DONE to TSR's creation!
1:41 you used a picture of Mask, God of Thieves, not the God of Murder.
Is the Mystra that Cyric killed the "new" Mystra that replaced the Mystra that Helm killed during the Time of Troubles?
Helm killed the "first" Mystra, the peasant-girl reincarnation of Mystryl (who sacrificed herself to stop Karsus's Folly). The "second" Mystra (originally a human girl named Midnight) was the 3rd incarnation of the goddess of magic, and she was killed by Cyric.
The current incarnation (the 4th overall) is a vestige of the Midnight/Mystra resurrected, with all the memories of Mystra and Midnight/Mystra, and Mystryl.
Poor Mystra cannot catch a break
I've got a question concerning Mystra:
In the first video of this series you have stated that Mystra was created out of the magical essence of Selune and Shar, but she decided to side with Selune over her sister, and that's where the Shar's hatred originates. Later on, Mystra was killed by Helm after she had tried to ascend the Celestial Stairway and was replaced by Midnight, who took on her name. If the real Mystra was dead, why would Shar carry out her revenge anyway?
In short it's probably a continuity error. However Shar wants to control the weave, so it makes sense she would still go after Mystra (Midnight) later on after the time of troubles.
I have a story, for a Tree-based warlock patron I homebrewed, which draws from the Spellplague:
During the Spellplague, the World Tree was literally destroyed, scattering seeds, splinters, and ash all across the multiverse. These fragments eventually took root in whatever they landed in--dead gods, ancient evils, crystal spheres, the primordial chaos, and even some in the far realm itself. From there, new trees began to grow & multiply--albeit in a corrupted state--from the things they grew in, and from the misremembered past, of reality in the world tree. Eventually, these trees honeycombed into a sort of super-organism. And just like plants in real life, it continually grows--even into the weave itself. It gained a sort of will, or instinct: grow and expand.
Up until now, I never heard of the Spellscarred, but it might be just what I'm looking for, for mechanics. The idea is that the patronage is less like a deal or bargain, and more like a symbiotic relationship between organisms.
I have a question about the Spellplague. Since the Weave was destroyed for 10 years and anything held together by by magic requires the Weave, what happened to all the undead, magical items, and anything that required magic to exist (eliminster's long life is strictly magical as well as all the Chosen) like the magical structures of Menzobarranzan?
Ssaz Tam's phylactery also requires magic as well as all of Thay's... everything!
The Spellplague was the worst and dumbest thing WotC ever could do to Forgotten Realms. Thank goodness for 5e.
all praise 5e the great rectifier
Ive been out of the loop did 5ed bring back my goddis?
timeline wise 5e takes place after all of that, but its after Toril started fully recovering, so no more scarring and such, but wild magic is still a thing, can still enter the shadowfell, etc
5e: "It was alllll a dreeeeam..."
3rd edition was bad for Forgotten Realms in regards to canon, organization, and verisimilitude, but 4th edition proved that WotC could make things far worse and inconsistent. What they should done was retcon'd from 2nd edition before all this nonsense began and where the setting was consistent with earlier edition material and believable.
But to be clear, I am not criticizing any of the later editions, their rules or mechanics, just the terrible direction that the story of the Realms has taken under the stewardship of WotC.
Wow. I love your channel. I started playing in 1977 and I thinkmy head would exploded if I had all of this info back then.
Challenge idea: watch this series and take a drink everytime Mystea dies
Awesome, with this and some wiki reading I finally understood what happened behind the curtains of the Drizzt books, damn Ghost King cause even if it ended with victory... so many main chars died.
I love this game,it came so far from the box set I started with
Always a good job! Even though I hated the changes made to 4th Edition, I really enjoy your videos. For me it's Great Wheel forever since I love Planescape and Sigil. Keep up the good work!
Is there a novel that details Cyric & Shar killing Mystra?
Empyrean Oddesey covers it sorta
Even though the Spellplague is over, I really would like to see a spellscarred subclass for 5e still kicking around.
Me too!! Even a feat would be cool.
@@Jorphdan I've seen some stuff on the DM's Guild, one that looks like a series of feats mimicking the old Dragonmarks and one sorcerer subclass. That's not good enough for me, though. I'd want it mimic the original more. A feat to use an effect and open up the exclusive spells and a "universal" subclass to act like the Spellscarred Savant paragon path so even a barbarian or monk could throw around their weird magic more often.
Deity of magic dies. World gets torn apart by astral fires. Deities are dying left and right, and mortals are perishing quicker than flies. Magic stops working, the continent is torn to shreds, everything is chaos.
10 years pass...boom! It's like it never happened.
Things like that are why Forgotten Realms drives me crazy.
Yeah, at times it feels they wanted this changing world and then they always back-pedal.
Hey Jorphdan, I was wondering... We're there still some of that "blue flame" existing in toril after the second sundering?
-Double D
Actually, it took about a hundred or so years for everything to revert. 10 years was how long it took for the dust to settle, but the FR campaign setting for 4e was set about a century after the Spellplague itself.
Dungeon Master, ok, but STILL! I mean, how does anyone get spell scarred after the spell plague anyway?!
-Double D
The spellplague is the result of when the writers of WotC like how the forgotten realms has name recognition but hates everything about it that makes it unique compared to the other campaign settings.
The spellplague isn't a "thing about the forgotten realms" that should drive you crazy. It's like hating star trek (or any franchise) based on a handful of it's worst television episodes or it's worst movie. It's bad writing. Pure and simple. As far as I'm concerned, the spellplague and everything after 1385 DR is non-canon.
Just out of my memory, an older editions we didn't really use the elemental chaos you had the individual elemental planes and limbo, they were also para elemental planes. some little confused over the details but they created the elemental chaos for 4th edition (which I skipped) and I've never really changed things in my games either 😅
The image you used was of Mask not Cyric
You said "think about subscribing" and I was like.. already did that.. did I realized I was wrong! Great stuff! Keep it up!
Glad to have you on board as a real subscriber now! :)
**Chapter 1: The Spellplague and the Planes of Existence (**0:00** - **1:01**)**
* The Spellplague was a cataclysmic event that changed the face of Faerûn forever.
* It was caused by the assassination of Mystra, the goddess of magic.
* The Spellplague destroyed the astral sea, the world tree cosmology, and merged the abyss and elemental chaos.
* It also created the shadowfell and the material plane.
**Chapter 2: The Aftermath of the Spellplague (**1:02** - **4:29**)**
* The Spellplague reshaped the landscape of Faerûn.
* It created earthmotes, rifts, and altered the Sea of Fallen Stars.
* The Spellplague disrupted the flow of magic and caused the deaths of many spellcasters.
* It also introduced the concept of spell scars, which are magical afflictions that can be harnessed for power.
**Chapter 3: The Spellplague and Spell Scars (**4:30** - **7:26**)**
* Spell scars are magical afflictions that can be gained by creatures who venture too close to areas where the Spellplague exists.
* These scars can be harnessed for power, but they are also thought to be contagious and ostracized by others.
* Spell scars were introduced in the fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons and were a way for players to customize their characters.
**Chapter 4: The Legacy of the Spellplague (**7:27** - **8:19**)**
* The Spellplague was a major event that had a profound impact on the Forgotten Realms.
* It changed the world forever, and its effects are still felt today.
Hey All, just playing with HARPA AI, hopefully that comment comes in handy for some other lore-freaks looking for key takeaways.
I always thought that the elemental planes were formed when an entity(ies) sorted out the elemental energies and organized them into separate planes then used that sorted elemental energies to forge the material plane. But then theory has a lot of holes as well as the various other creation theories of official lore.
Hurray Jorphdan Senpai noticed me and liked my comment ^_^ :)
I heard a diffrent story for the origin of the spell plague, a magocratic empire was being invaded by a magic eating monster, and the most powerful mage used a 12th level spell to become to god of magic, unintentionally destroying himself since he was unable to handle the power, and completly wreaking the weave.
The Tree wasn't so much a retcon as an alternate concept. Several 3rd ed books still present the grand wheel. Just apparently not 3rd ed Forgottsn Realms.
Also the Astral has always been a transitory plane. The ethereal separates the Prime from the Elemental, and vortexes move through the ethereal to the prime, allowing the prime to have formed. The Astral meanwhile connects the Prime with the outer planes - so everything that isn't an Elemental, Para-elemental, or Quasi-elemental plane, transitory plane, the Feywild or the Shadow Plane (which overlap the Prime, and yes the Shadow Plane used to be a Demi-plane). The Outlands is an outer plane but occupies a unique place as a hub.
Through 1st edition up until the last days of 2e the Forgotten Realms was a good solid D&D setting that felt alive and believable (within the context of fantasy). From then on, the setting & its continuity has just gotten messier and messier and dumber and dumber. When you have massive cataclysmic world-reshaping events every few years everything just becomes completely meaningless. It worked OK with the Time of Troubles because it was still a novel concept then, and in the end most things went back to normal (with some obvious exceptions). That was also what eventually led to the setting going off the rails, though, because that's when the gods of the Realms started getting portrayed as dumbasses in a soap opera, which is what led to a lot of the idiocy that followed (like the Spellplague). IMO the Cyrinishad was the moment when the Forgotten Realms setting actually jumped the shark, and it's been pretty much all downhill ever since.
Wait.. so there is a new map?
And the Mulhorandi are gone?
And this was in 1395DR that things recovered?
Ooh boi... (spelling intended)
I should really fix that in my first campaign, then again, that campaign has already been established as being canon in some areas but changed to accommodate for players and the plot.
Long story short, I made a copy of the Forgotten Realms, changed the year to the 1500's DR and made lose connections that these blue flames are coming back in a different form and with it, it is linking Eberron's world to Toril.
Yeah, a bit ambitious but had my players interested, which is all I needed.
I wonder what an elemental of that blue fire would be like? or a genasi!
There are several interviews out there with various devs former and current that basically state that the whole astral sea and elemental chaos thing was left intentionally vague
Can't remember if it was this video or not but you had asked about books to read to learn more about elminster. There is a book called "Elminster, the making of a mage" by Ed Greenwood that details his entire history. Younger life, living on the streets as a rogue, becoming a chosen of mystra, being transformed by mystra into a female that went by the name Elmara, being a cleric etc. He's not just a 29th level wizard, he's also a 1st level fighter, 2nd level rogue, and 3rd level cleric of mystra.
I prefer the Karsus interpretation for why the Weave failed. It also perfectly explains why you can't use 10+ level spells
Honestly? The Abeir thing was probably intentional. Abeir as a separate world, AFAICT, was entirely a 4e thing and never gained a huge foothold in the FR continuity and they wanted to dump it ASAP coming into the reset for 5e. So they just cut it loose and called it a day.
SO glad I never left 2e
The splitting of Abeir from Toril was facilitated by the weave. Much like with the creation of Anchorome, the elemental chaos briefly returned to the deific side of the cosmology.
Welp this sounds awesome... Yet another mechanic to use in the campaign I'm writing lol
I’m guessing all this chaos about the chaos is just…retcons that they forgot to re-retcon when things changed again later
The spellplague was the messiest, most convoluted retcon I have ever seen. Im sure the fans loved it.
Great Wheel cosmology ftw!
isnt it back in 5e ?
Bruh never played d&d but i want to live in this reality
The best part is, you can by playing D&D
Jebus, 4th edition was convoluted. Not just mechanically but story-wise too.
I love the wrong artwork for Cyric(Mask) and Dweomerheart (Gates of the Moon) but I can has 3.5 grognard. Great vid though!
Studying the lore and learning from this. But this video mentions being confused about the elemental chaos. The Spellplague is strictly Forgotten Realms lore. Planescape 4e has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms, as in completely independent. And heavily utilized in Points of Light (Nentir Vale) which is the setting I know much more about than Forgotten Realms. This doesn't clear up most of the confusion about the spell plague. Which is due to Forgotten Realms stories being split into two separate timeframe settings. Which is the main basis of confusion about it. Because it's treated as if current events. But also as a historical event. So which is it? Well it's not possible to understand for users who think that Forgotten Realms is a setting that takes place at roughly the same timeframe. When it actually is two separate timeframes over a century apart. So from the first setting, it's current events. And from the second one, it's a historical event.
The elemental chaos used to be the outer borders of the elemental planes, where they mixed.
Another great video Jorphdan. Just one little thing though. The first time you mentioned Cyric (god of murder, lies, intrigue, deception, and illusion) you put up a picture of Mask (god of shadows, thievery, and thieves). Other than that, great stuff. Keep it up.
Gah! Woops! XD
It's easy to do bro. They are both pretty shady dudes, haha. Plus Cyric actually wielded Mask in sword form (Godsbane) during the Time of Troubles (and killed Bhaal with him too). So they are both pretty closely linked.
I realized it last night going over the video and I was like... "yeahhh but who's going to notice" ;)
Haha, it's the internet my friend. Someone notices everything ;)
love these videos, they're a huge help and inspiration to my campaign! this might be something I glossed over but can you get into whatever year zero event there was (shifting years from whatever to DR), assuming it must be something pretty legendary. I think you mentioned it in a past video but its escaping me now, and I'd love some in depth examination, assuming its something as influential as christ in our bc/ad timeline. thanks, keep it up!
Hello! I did cover the Year zero in the Myth Drannor video. Sorry for the disappointment but it wasn't anything "biblical" in size. It was the treaty between the elves and humans of Dalesland. They built a large stone with the pact inscribed on it allowing humans protection in the surrounding woods.
Sick, thanks for the follow up! I do remember that now that you mention it, suppose I was hoping for something enormous, as if there wasn't enough of that in the world history already
Hey there Jorphdan, I've recently become a fan and I enjoy listening to all your dnd lore videos. Im attempting to create a campaign around the time of troubles with mortal gods walking the same plane as their followers. Do you have any suggestions on source material or modules I should look at for guidance or inspiration?
You could read the old Avatar adventures that take place during the Time of Troubles.
Or this video might be useful too! ruclips.net/video/2xRkOo6bux8/видео.html
Can someone tell what is the connection between Spellplague and the Far Realm? Because playin NWO (which kinda follows the Forgotten Realms storyline) there are always aberrations involved whenever you enter a spellscarred place. Is it just a thing invented for this game or is there something connecting them in official lore?
0:22 so not to nitpick but your planar structure for ADnD is a bit wrong - I'm not sure where the diagram you used came from but as it has the inclusion of the feywild I would guess it's from 4th edition onwards.
The best way to think about it is in ADnD you had the Inner Planes, then the Prime Material plane, then the Outer Planes, with the Ethereal plane linking the Inner and Prime plane, and the Astral plan linking the Prime material and Outer planes.
So as you say you can think of the Prime Material plane in the middle, however the Inner planes are WITHIN it in a sense, and are not a transition route to the Outer Planes.
Just a correction for you Jordphan!
I do enjoy your videos. You should do more than just forgotten realms
I've done a little bit of Eberron. But yes I should :)
The Spellplague aka the huge retcon that keeps on retconning.
Okay Spellplague yeah is just kind of a clusterfuck for me so personally if I do write my DnD stories around that time I tend to just pretend it didn't exist. Now the idea of wild magic that it seems to hint at is still a cool concept (and something a GM who I'm playing under in 5e has done a few times with some fun and funny results) so maybe I might toy with that. Maybe have it so Cyric had dealt a devastating blow that almost killed Mystra and caused a negative reaction in the weave perhaps. Don't know if that'll work but as said just an idea.
Interesting changes, but I'll stick with my 2ed edition campaign. Not interesting in spending tons of cash on all new books.
I know it's not as cool, but you can find PDFs of 5e books online if you want to go that route.
Jorphadan, let me start by saying I’m glad I found your channel. You have several great videos. I know this video about the spell plague is somewhat dated, but I just discovered it. My apologies if you’re tired of hearing about this subject.
When I look in my D&D 5e PHB it shows the great wheel cosmology model. This video discusses some significant changes to the multiverse that I believe took place before the 5e timeframe (correct me if I’m wrong). So now my question… is there an explanation as to how the cosmology of the multiverse changed back to the great wheel model? Or is this something WoTC changed just to revert back to a more popular model and we players are not supposed to worry too much about it?
Mistra try not to die every 5 minutes challenge
what about thay? and what about the mythals? do they still work? have they been twisted or changed by the spellplauge? elves! what about the elves and other magical races? if the weave is gone shouldnt that have killed or altered beings like fey and planetouched? a more important question is how does this effect divine casters? and if magic users had to reteach themselves magic an the old magic was dependant on the weave what r casters useing to cast? i mean is this like dragonlance in the 5th age or what?
I really love these videos!
Thanks!
Looking forward to the next video
Is it possible that when Abeir and Toril reconnected the elemental chaos came with Abeir allowing Toril to access it?
In lore theory yeah that's a fun possibility. In game terms the elemental chaos was invented for 4th edition, and a lot of the lore was written and rewritten to fit the new cosmology. WoTC wanted us to think it was always there in some form. I like to think it went away with Abeir and came back during the spellplague when sections of the two merged.
Sounds very logical
Which planar model does 5e use? I think the Great Wheel model was shown in the PHB or DMG, but I'm not sure.
I believe it's back to the great wheel :)
I am as a Game Master, i play a One Shot of the Spell Plague near of Luskan.
I love these videos but I do have a comment. As I am reading up on history i have been reading the 4th edition demonomicon and in the first chapter it states that Tharizdun places the shard of evil into the elemental chaos because he knew that if he tried to put it in the astral sea the other gods would destroy him.
shar said oopsie
Slaad, "YO! Elemental Chaos! You dun retroactive stole our gig! Shame on you! Shame! Shame! SHAME!"
Changed the face of Toril forev... for some years
You keep referring to Toril and the Prime Material Plane interchangeably but they're not the same thing. Toril is just one of countless planets on the Prime Material; the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are 'above' and 'below' the entire Prime, and what has changed is Toril's perception of them; in 1st Edition they saw it as the World Tree, in 4th as the World Axis, and in 2nd, 3rd, and 5th as the Great Wheel.
Correct!
I like how you say everything different than what I think it should say . Np just different.
You say Fay-Rune. I say Fair-un .
Jorphdan could you explain what happened to the god worshipped by Cadderly in the R.A. Salvatore books during and after the spell plague.
Hello there from France. Nice videos Jorphdan, thanks for them. I think this reset button when D&D 5th edition came was the best idea they could do to undo the shit they did with D&D 4th edition, Forgotten Realms beeing the most famous and played universe in the D&D scene. In my version of the FR, the Spellplague never occured. Since I dispised the MMORPG-videogame-like aspect of D&D 4th edition, all the events linked to this specific edition never occured. As a DM, I stayed with D&D 3.5, and years later, switched to Pathfinder RPG, but keeping the FR as the universe for my campaigns. It had to make conversions to adapt things into PF-RPG rules - and I still do - but I found a good equilibrium between PF-RPG rulebooks and the D&D 3.5 FR rulebooks. Now I could switch to D&D 5th edition - witch interest me - but I would cost me a lot in books, and would have to convert again all the stuff i already worked on... So I guess me and my players are sticking with PF-RPG + FR. ^^
Hello France! Thanks for the comment. Pathfinder Forgotten Realms sounds interesting :)
I think it's safe to also say that Cyric didn't need much convincing to kill Mystra... if Cyric could still remember anything of his mortal life, he might remember how much he disliked her even then.
I play 3.5 and use the great wheel
The best edition. No need to switch, other than possibility incorporating some Pathfinder stuff.
The whole thing that doesn't sit well with me is that since the early days of D&D Mystryl (soon to become Mystra) was always the God in charge or the timestream. And I've not read anywhere that after the time of troubles did Mystra lose this power. So with that said, Mystra could have seen the assassination attempt coming. This Spellplague idea was totally bogus imo. Ridiculous.