Just moved into a place with a wood boiler (my first) and so many new things to figure out. Great video and very detailed explanation, helped me out a lot!
Just installed my 20 plate exchanger yesterday as shown here...outdoor wood burner...family of 4...multiple showers and the gas burner in the water heater hasnt had to come on once! stayed hot all night with no circulation...just the thermal pressure siphon. like the man says..it works..try it!
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ruclips.net/user/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Ok - I’m not a plumber but I have enough of an engineering background and the necessary skills to tackle installations such as this. I have to admit I was dubious about whether this would work but this easy solution was too tempting not to try to cut cost and save time - after all these are the heating experts. I Tried to get questions answered and was even one of the first customers on their Facebook group- still no response! So anyway I go ahead and fit as shown. Now I admit I’m not using a furnace as a heat source - I’m using solar water. I was a bit late starting the installation in the year but in September the configuration was complete. Even with solar fluid temperatures of 60C arriving at the heat exchanger installed in this manner, there was no heat transference at all. I had installed the solar controller and temperature sensors as monitoring, however, the pressure equalization obviously did not happen the way Jeff describes it will and the top of the tank remained stone cold. Now I know the furnace was probably pumping out more heat than my Solar in September but I can assure you there was no heat transference at all.even after leaving it for a couple of weeks till I could get around to replumbing it. I had a pumped closed loop system with a 30 plate 230,000 btu exchanger. I reconfigured the pipe work reverting to my original design prior to seeing this vid and installed a circ pump in the DHW tank. Yep that worked and heat transference was good right from the getgo. I used copper piping and brass compression fittings throughout. I did not want to use soldered fittings as I was still unsure of the credibility of this configuration. I’m glad I did. This made making changes way easier. I later came across further reviews of this in googles pages when I actually searched Jeff Luffs name. Suffice to say they weren’t favourable by any means, plumbers stating that it bore no evidence to science and physics. Personally, if anyone is hoping to save time as I did, I would reconsider these remarks before commencing. I’d love to be proved wrong but I can assure you the installation I tried was as shown above. It’s a pity I didn’t get any responses at all from your company prior to commencement. Perhaps the reasons above explain why- so Sorry Jeff but it didn’t work for me!
Thanks for this post. I was skeptical of Jeff's design and have ordered a heat exchanger and pump like you did. I appreciate the troubles you went through, and that you posted them so others don't have to go through them as well.
If you do it right, you don't need a circulation pump on the domestics hot water. I don't think what Jeff is talking about works, except, if you have a hot tank and use hot water often. That would heat the incoming water to the hot water tank to what ever the boiler has. What I did was a copper pipe over another copper pipe heat exchanger. Inside copper pipe is domestic water outside is boiler water, the pipe is vertical and beside the tank, plumbed into the top and bottom of the tank. The boiler heats the water in the pipe and hot water wants to go up,, colder water comes in to replace it. This worked very well. just have to buy the kit with the special connections.
Not sure what any of you are talking about it works perfectly I ran my 2 shower dishwasher 3 sinks and my tub never went cold and have yet to have anyone complain about a cold shower and my son is well know for his steamy marathon showers used to run cold on him with my oil boiler
I bought this water heater ruclips.net/user/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
Update! we have been running our 20 plate exchanger installed as shown here since Jan 8th and the gas has been turned off to the water heater since install. still working great and unlimited hot water as long as we feed the boiler. doesn't use much. for all the nay sayers. it really works
The plate heat exchanger on top of the water heater does not create circulation like a side arm that will continuously circulate until the water inside the water heater reaches a temperature within a few degrees of the outdoor furnace water temperature. The hot water that resides in the plate exchanger stays there because it is hotter/less dense than the water in the tank. By heating the water as it enters the water heater, the temperature of heated domestic water will likely be hotter than the thermostat on the water heater depending on the exchanger size, 20 or 30 plate and the water flow gpm, but it mixes with the water in the tank that looses some temperature over time. When the new "demand" occurs by someone turning on the hot water facet, the newly heated water which enters the tank and is force lower in the tank through the Dip Tube on the cold inlet. That water that is hotter than the temperature of the water near the bottom of the tank is also less dense and will immediately rise as it mixes with the water in the tank. This lower density hotter water entering the tank rising to top helps to immediately mix and create good output of hot water mixed with the other water in the tank. If the water flow "demand" were to continue for a long time period and the plate exchanger is sized to create water that is higher than the thermostat stetting will result in the water temperature increasing over time. If the exchanger is not large enough to heat the incoming water to a temperature that satisfies the users liking, a larger exchanger could be used. It would be easy to identify by installing an inline temperature measuring device(thermocouple or temperature gauge) on the heated water line entering the water heater tank. If it is not at least 140 degrees, it likely will not satisfy the user. It is important if one wants to understand how the system works, to realize hot water is lighter (less dense) and will rise above water that is lower temperature, heavier (more dense) than the hotter water. i have heard of very few complaints from those using a 20 or 30 plate exchanger shown installed as Jeff has demonstrated. The amount of btus added to the water is a much higher exchange rate than the side arm. Because the side arm heats the water to a much higher temperature the hot water lasts a very long time when it is mixed down using the tempering valve but can be dangerously hot if a mixing valve is not used. Also some gas valves contain a thermal protection that will disable the valve if it gets to hot. Most have to be replace if they trip that thermal protection. I have heard of that occuring several times with the use of the side arm exchanger and the outdoor furnace thermostat setting very high. These gas valves are quite costly. I have never heard of that occurring with the plate exchanger mounted on top of the water heater. It would have to be a large enough exchanger to heat the incoming water to a very high temperature, again a temperature valve installed in the line of the heated water would identify that. That heated water temperature should be quite stable when the plate exchanger on top of the water heater is used because the cold incoming water temperature is very stable and the outdoor furnace water temperature should only change 10 to 20 degrees depending on the thermostat differential. If a very slow water flow out of the water heater occurs for a long time the water temperature entering the tank will be higher because the exchange time for the water passing through the exchanger will increase the heated temperature.
So what happens to the hot water in the tank once it goes through the plate exchanger and sits in the tank for a couple hours when your not using the hot water, does it get cold and then your heating elements turn on anyways?
Ok not sure if you still read these comments but here we just purchased a classic edge hdx 760 will be installing in the spring My house heating system is a oil boiler 5 zone baseboard 5 zone is domestic hot water if I'm not mistaken I should only have to connect a heat exchanger to the return side of my oil boiler and I should be good for everything correct is how big of an exchanger do I need My garage has no heat yet I'll be figuring that out next lol
If you install like my video says you will be good to go. Please make sure you call us to help size the heat exchanger and the pump you will need. Thanks
Looking to run DHW and floor heat off of an outdoor wood boiler. Possibly get one of your hydro kits in the future based on the output from the floor. But do you have any videos or recommendations on how to plumb the dhw and radiant floor system?
If you hook it up the way it shows, it works. The electric to my Electric Hot Water Tank has been off since September 2016 and my water is hot. In my installation, my boiler water temp is approximately 180° and my hot water at my sinks and shower is approximately 140°. My circulation pump runs 24/7 through the plate to plate heat exchanger.
Hi. I really like this product. Can this be dangerous in any way? Can it build up some kind of pressure? I have a woodboiler and a circ.pump, would it be okey to run the water through the exchanger with the pump?
Very helpful as I am getting ready to do this. Only thing I don't see that u have showed is where and how do u plumb in for a mixing valve. I would really like to see a video with the same application of the plate exchanger with adding the mixing valve.
I used to have a side arm heat exchanger on my old tank and it worked well, but I had to replace the tank and the side arm had gone bad. I’m considering putting a plate exchanger on my newer tank in a similar set up like you have. Do you recommend running the boiler loop to the exchanger constantly, or do you somehow have a thermostat set up on your tank so that it kicks the boiler pump on only when the temperature drops? In other words, does the plate exchanger continue to heat the water in the tank even when the hot water is not in use, and there is no fresh cold water flowing through the exchanger?
If my water heater is currently plumbed with 3/4" pvc pipe, how long of a copper or brass nipple do I need on the cold water inlet of the plate heat exchanger before I can convert back to the pvc?
With the sidearm heat exchanger you talked about a “thermal block” when the water has to go down into the water tank. Can you please explain why this isn’t an issue with the plate exchanger you have here? I have a pool-style Pahlen heat exchanger that worked great with our previous water tank but isn’t working well at all with our new water tank. I’m wondering about a thermal block even though the exchanger is only sitting a few inches off the floor and the supply line feeding hot water to the boiler only drops a few inches before entering the tank. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I used the power of a thermal siphon by installing heat exchanger at the bottom of the electric tank . Added a pressure tank and blending valve for safety. Total cost was $500 CAN. Boiler flow is throttled to HE by valve off continuous flow from circuit from wood gasifier boiler . No additional circulation pumps required. As thermal demand increases the rate of thermal siphon increases. Been running 3 years and have had 5 showers back to back without running out. Unions allow for quick removal and cleaning with citric acid solution.
Jeff I’ll be installing a 20 plate heat exchanger on my hot water tank ..continuing up to a Water to air heat exchanger in my attic my question is does it have to be piped directly on top of the way you have it or can I mount it off to the side (at the same height now) but off mounted to the side of the cabinet the water heater is housed in so my outdoor wood boiler in and out lines make a straighter run
It needs a non-return valve on the cold feed pipe to maintain pressure inside the plate. I assume the cold feed pipe runs thru the inside of the cylinder to the bottom. The pressure build up in the plate pushes water down the cold feed pipe into the bottom of the cylinder? Are you just pre-heating the incoming cold water? I am confused at what you are doing.
My main question.. Is there a way to have this heat the water that is in the tank? Or is it purely to prevent having to heat COOOOOLD water from the main line? Which actually sounds like it would help alot, to subsidize the heat. just the water tank would still have to turn on eventually to heat up the water once ir cools down...
Would you recommend this setup for an existing electric water heater (80 gal) with the plate exchanger heated by a natural gas boiler (of sufficient capacity for both house heating and DHW)? I need to put in a gas new boiler anyway so I'm curious if running a separate pump through the exchanger often (or almost continuously?) plus the cost of gas fuel would be significant cost savings over the regular electrical heating elements. Cost of gas/electric is comparable (gas is $1/therm vs $.1/kWh). The boiler would also be running one of your 20x20 air to water exchangers in a forced air system. Thanks.
The house came with a vertical style " tube in tube " side arm heat exchanger. It is 1" copper pipe inside of a 1.5" copper pipe. It is taller than the HWT it is connected to . I am going to install a new HWT in a new location. Would it work if I mounted the side arm HX horizontally in a joist space above the new HWT location? Would the temps of the water in HWT still equalize even though it wouldn't be a traditional layout? The way the system was set up originally it was a wild loop from boiler through HX and back. A tstat would energize the furnace fan relay to maintain set point in house. I added a baseboard fin and tube heater in far corner of bsmt. Put a diverting zone valve in the return line to boiler. Added a tstat to control the zone valve. Now I run the furnace fan all the time. When the upstairs tstat calls for heat, the water goes through the plenum mounted HX. When upstairs is satisfied, the hot boiler water heats the far end of the bsmt through the base board tube n fin HX. Works like a charm. The reason I needed to go this route was I have a Rheem communicating furnace/ thermostat combination. The programming does not allow the addition of a thermostat to be installed in series with the G wire of the furnace, cuz there is no separate G wire as a result of the communication functions . So the only way to regulate the room temp when running the wood boiler is to set the fan to run 24/7 and divert the boiler water when the room tstat is satisfied. I used to run the fan 24/7 when the loop was wild, and the house would over heat every night. It's something all the major furnace companies have overlooked. Even a new high eff furnace that uses a G wire to energize the fan , making it possible to add a separate tsat to control the furnace fan as W1 doesn't allow a very high volume of air when the fan terminal is energized. A 3 ton ECM blower only allows around 350 cfm for fan only operation . At really cold ODT the low volume of air has trouble keeping up with heat loss.
Hello, I just have a couple quick questions for ya. First off, my wife and I will be building a house and shop out on some property that we recently bought and I'm really wanting to do an outdoor wood burning setup. I plan to have radiant heat in the floors in the basement, and mounted under the floors of the main floor of the house. I also intend to heat our hot water with the setup as well. The main question that I have is, what kind of temps can a guy expect to see in the boiler water on the downstream side of the exchanger in the setup you've put together for this video. I ask this because I wonder if the boiler water(after going through the first exchanger) would be warm enough still to be circulated through a second exchanger to supply the radiant floor heat setup. Or, would I just be best off to run a second line into the house and use that second circuit? Thanks for your video, it answered a lot of questions that I have been trying to answer!
Hey Guys, Like the video. I'm skeptical about the tank heat not coming on without a circulator between the heat exchanger and tank, but if it's close enough (directly connected to the tank), are you sure this works reliably? On a slightly different note, I have a client who has a long run of uninsulated hot water line and has to run the hot water for too long, so I'm planning to install a small circulator and recirc line back to the tank to give. Where would you recommend installing the return water connection & check valve from the recirc line? before or after the heat exchanger, or directly back into the tank? Thanks.
Same skepticism here. There would need to be a recirculating line that allowed the water to flow through the plate exchanger and water heater. Thermal siphon will work but we usually have to remove the check valves on the return line or it won’t siphon.
Do I have to use this heat exchanger only when I have a second boiler? Can I just use it to recover hot water coming down the shower drain? If I could reclaim the heat out of my shower and preheat the cold water, coming to the shower head, I could create a small loop where you could take a shower, where your recovering the majority of the heat
You can try, I have never tried it myself. My thoughts would be the ROI on the material for the energy savings return on investment won't be worth it. Jeff
I have installed this as you said and tested it, It barely heats the tank if no one is using the hot water. Maybe I did something wrong my heat exchanger is a few feet away from the tank inlet.
Why wouldn't you install a check valve and exp tank on the domestic inlet? Seems like that hot water will migrate quite a ways upstream on the cold side.
What is the recovery time for this system? Is it as fast as using a pump? I am very curious to use this with our boiler as it is simpler than the pumped system.
I was figuring on doing this but adding a small circulator pump with a thermostat so the water in the tank will stay warm even when you're not drawing hot water.
Hello can I ask a question. I live in Italy and have just had a boiler stove fitted. It's used exclusively for the radiators by using a heat exchanger but there is not water tank. In your opinion would a boiler stove work more efficiently with a hot water store? I notice the radiators work but i think it should work better. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
So this heat exchanger is installed without a separate circulator or means to turn the loop off and on as needed? Wouldn't a loop with an aquastat and separate circulator be safer? If it works as shown then great but I'm skeptical.
My oil boiler and wood boiler are tied in together, I have an electric domestic hot water tank, can I tie into it and leave the electric on with a low setting? only burn wood in the Winter. Thanks
I would mount a plate exchanger on your Boiler to separate the two systems and then you can use another plate exchanger to heat your domestic hot water. Simple fix.. Happy heating Jeff
Great video. Would you recommend side arm vs plate changer for a water tank? is one more effective than other? what type of water tank is the most effective at heating when used with echanger, bottom feed or top feed?
I would probably use a sidearm, I can visualize the natural convection with that setup better. A plate heat exchanger, from my experience, is more efficient needs a circulation pump.
I personally don't recommend a side arm....the recovery rate with a. Side arm suuuuuuuucks. With the hex, the water coming in isn't cold it's already heated up pretty good
Thinking about ways to add solar thermal hot water to my current gas water heater. How does this work to add heat to the tank if there is no call for hot water at the moment? If no hot taps are open, then no cold (heated by the heat exchanger) is flowing into the tank right? Could this work with solar as long as the input temp to the heat exchanger is higher than cold ground water inlet temp?
So I'm installing a new Central wood boiler and I'm curious if there's any way to hook this up with my tankless water heater? Space is at a premium in my house so I opted for a water softener and went with a tankless water heater. Now I'm interested in using my wood boiler to cut down on my propane cost, so I'm curious if there's any way to cut it further by using my wood boiler to heat with a tankless water system?
Jeff I received a bell&gosset 20 plate heat exchanger to install on my DHW tank and the gurus at bell and gosset tell me I can’t 180 it to make the lines flow without crisscrossing ....it won’t install like the one you have...the boiler supply and return ports are different...can it be 180’d It makes no sense why not
Does the outdoor wood stove circulating water pump have to run continuously for the domestic water plate heat exchanger to work? Seems to me it would have to.
Yes it should, or it might freeze as well very difficult and expensive to setup to turn on when needed. Pumps only cost $10 to 15 bucks a month to run. Pretty cheap in the long run.
I’m curious about the risk of freezing your wood fired outdoor boiler. I’m trying to help out a friend who’s husband passed away get the wood fired system up and running. The system is hooked to a heat exchanger on their furnace. Their is also a plate exchange tied into the domestic hot water system. If the wood fired boiler is not firing what prevents that system from freezing? FYI I live in MN.
will i need to add shut off valves to the wood stove line to keep from back heating my wood stove in the summer time? does it matter how far away from the water heater inlet the heat exchanger is? say if the heat exchanger was 5 feet to the side of the water heater would it still work as good as being mounted direct? will this work as an on demand system so i can turn the power off to the water heater? doesn't the hot water back feed the cold line to the rest of the cold system before the water heater inlet?
Can i go from my wood boiler, to my gas boiler through a plate exchanger for my DHW then to another exchanger for for Central heat? Have two exchangers in one loop before returning to the wood boiler
We will be using off-peak power and installing a Marathon boiler which is heavily insulated. If you run the boiler at 180 degrees and want the hot water set at 130 in the tank... Does the water in the tank exceed the 130 setting ?..... this question applies to both side arm and plate exchanger. Thanks
+vogelkj2001 Good question, no it will not. Its called a "Thermal Pressure Siphon". If you jump the video above to about 3:22 in, we go over this. Thanks!
I have a 10 plate heat exchanger i have an outdoor wood boiler. I have never had enough hot water would getting a 20 or 40 plate give me more hot water and would the boiler handle that much without cutting down on house heat.... thanks
Since the heat exchanger heats up the water in the tank with boiler heat, I can just use a water holding tank and don't need a regular water heater with its own heating source, correct?
Possibly, you will need a stainless steal pump to circulate and a thermostat to regulate the tank water. The tank will lose heat over time. Easier to use Domestic hot water tank to handle this simple things. Jeff
Are plate exchangers needed/ efficient if the outdoor boiler is pressurized? Or is it easier/ more efficient to tie outdoor wood boiler in with indoor pressurized propane boiler? Thanks!
Out door boilers use a glycol solution to protect them from freezing. The plate style heat exchanger keep potable water from mixing with the glycol solution.
I have never done it, But I think it would work as the water fill shouldn't matter where it is entering. The plate mount to the cold line going into the bottom of your tank... Jeff
I have replaced my 40 g water heater with a 60 gallon heater and reinstalled the plate exchanger the same way. Does not seem to be heating the water in the tank. Any thoughts? Great videos btw
I was skeptical, but our circuit breaker has been off for almost 24 hours.1 shower, 1 load of dishes and 2 loads of laundry later and our hot water is hot.Simply by circulating 180 degree wood boiler water through it.
Hi, I would like to install an inline Electric heat exchanger into my indoor gas boiler line. how would I go about doing this and can it keep my 1400 foot house at 50 degrees in michigan, while my insert is heating the rest of the house? what are some of possible alternatives to using something other than gas?
I’m using a side arm heat exchanger in my shop now and getting ready to hook up the house to the boiler. Would you recommend one exchanger over the other?
My installer put our plate exchanger under my house. I have moved and am in the process of reinstalling my outdoor furnace and would like to know if it's better that the box be in the house with the water heater or under the house like it was installed previously?
@@AltheatsupplyLLC In Australia the Cold inlet connection point is down the bottom of the HWS Tank, Do i still need to mount the Exchanger above the tank or should it work at the bottom of the tank too. Cold water enters at the bottom of the tank on both types right?
Hi Jeff I am planning a creative build on a sprinter van. if I wanted to heat 5 gallons of water quickly using the diesel engine coolant lines, what size plate exchanger would you recommend?
i have a side arm heat now that works well, temp is 180, but i run out of hot water after 60 min of running water, if i add the plate exchanger? should i add it to the hot out of tank ?
Is there a recommended way to clean the heat exchanger? We had a new wood boiler installed last year and are noticing that it is hard to get hot water to the bathtub this year. We have really hard water even though it goes through a softer system. I am thinking that there may be scale built up on the plates. Was thinking of taking it off and running CLR through the well side?
No real good way to clean them, you can use CF205 & White vinegar every year to keep them clean. we sell the cf205 to work with white vinegar as a yearly maintenance.
??? This is a surprise answer from you! Of course you can clean them! I do mine about every other year! Take the heat exchanger completely off of the system. I found a fitting that connects to the threaded fittings on the heat exchanger (it happens to be a washing machine hose) which also screws onto the garden hose bib nicely. I run the garden hose slowly first. All of this black, iron much comes out of the heat exchanger. I then put the hose on full blast until the water is clean. I do this to ALL 4 threaded ports several of times. When I put the heat exchanger back on my heating system, it works like brand new! My hot water heat exchanger is about 25 years old and my whole house heat exchanger is 12 years old. Good luck!
Twindadx2 ......I use spirits of salt acid to clean mine every year , it takes about 30 mins to clean it like new then just give it a good flush through with your garden hose and re assemble , this method works every time....👍
You said over and over that you should use good quality brass fittings but the heat exchanger is stainless and copper. Is there any reason or downside to using ss fittings instead of brass?
@@AltheatsupplyLLC is there any reason not to though, I have several ss fittings that would work perfectly and I would assume would be even better than brass or copper if cost isnt an issue.
My plumber put a T in the clod side of the hot water heater. And put the heat exchanger on the side of the tank. And feed the bottom of the tank with the hot water. It worked for 2 weeks and now we have warm water. I don't know y he put a T in the line . I think he is feeding cold water in the tank and the heat exchanger can't keep up. Do you have an answer?
at 4.22 you say the exchanger heats up the tank water and the persure is the thing that causes the tank to heat up? you would need a check valve to get persure. but while there is no flow in the tank side of the exchanger you still think it will heat tank water? there is no return to the tank from the exchanger, how will it circulate? i only see it as supplementary heating for the in-feed line for the tank when the tank in feed line is flowing.
horseshoe182 .. confused me also. if cold water is flowing in I presume there would be heat transfere but static water NO flow I dont think so. Plus , without check valves what happens when tank temp falls below the source temp. Thermal syphon I think.
Help me understand your statement near the 3 minute mark. The plates on the exchangers you sell are 40% thicker and last the life of a boiler (25 years?) yet competitor exchangers are, call it nominal thickness, and require replacement every 5 years?
the water in the units have particles and blast the exchanger like a sand blaster in side the plate exchangers which make them fail. most plate exchangers were designed for a cleaner environments.
Hey jeff, could i add one of these to my oil condensing combi boiler?. I have a wood burner in my garage i want to combine. Btw great videos From scotland
Hi I had two oil boilers in my 5900 sq ft house ran two plate exchangers from my central boiler and heated house and hot water made a control so when boiler water got to cold oil would take over still working great 18 yrs and going
@@russellmcallister6830 Hi and merry Christmas to you I used 2 20 plate in on the wall near the boiler ran the supply into the back of the boiler and teed off the return on the main supply to the house baseboard back to the plates I used two of them because I had two boilers because of the size of the house you may need only one do you have zone controls for your house as this will tell me about the base control you will need
So help me out please, I understand the no need for pump on the inlet of the DHW tank. But the boiler side would have a pump to circulate from a hot side / cold side header system correct? How would i control that circ pump? I wouldnt imagin it would need to run 24/7. How would I prevent my DHW tank from reaching boiler temp?
I am get ready to install a plate exchanger on the top of my electric hot water tank. My question is: where the cold water supply comes into the exchanger does it need a flo-check valve to get the pressure from the hot water to enter the tank and not back flow to my cold water supply?
I think that maybe a mistake Jeff. The cold water line is the only connection to the pressure tank (in a well system) or line pressure (if served by the municipality). As temperature increases and pressure builds (as per your comments in the video) that pressure must go some where...and it will push back on the bladder or municipal system. A one way valve will likely cause the tank or tubing to rupture. Correct me if I am wrong please.
The hot water tank is cooling loosing pressure, so that is where the extra pressure is going. I haven't heard of a bladder tank going bad. The domestic hot water tank is usually 120 to 125 degrees, with the heat exchanger it will increase about 5 degrees taking up the extra pressure.
Thanks Jeff. I am not sure what you are referring to regarding the bladder tank unless you misunderstood my reference to the hotwater tank. To make my point clearer (and I still stand to be corrected) if the hotwater tank is drained for maintenance and then refilled with cold water in the summer when the boiler is off, turning the electric elements back on will cause the water to heat up and expand. If there is a check valve in the cold water supply the pressure will have no where to expand to as the check valve will prevent it from travelling back along the cold water line to the pressure tank or municipal system. Does that make more sense? By the way I am pretty sure the standard tank temperature now (at least in Ontario Canada) is 140F.
HI I WATCHED VID ITS GREAT ! i have a wood stove with heat coils in out pipe no circulating pump do i need 1 and it also has no temperature control so dont no temp coming out of it! and i have in well jet pump and 60 40 pressure tank can i hook system up same way?with the pressure 60 40 coming in to heat exchanger? please help? do i need circulating pump or temperature control ? i want to run threw my electric furnace also with rad like you showed on plenum but i only have 3 inches of plenum away from ac a rad for heat pump dose this matter?
I am installing a 20 plate to a domestic hot water tank that has a radiant floor heating system already hooked up. Will we need to connect the exchanger the same way? Can you provide a diagram if possible? What is the max temp that can be used in the radiant floor?
+MrDeepvoyage So the temp of the water in the domestic tank witch feeds the radiant ( in concrete floor) system doesn't matter?I don't need a mixing valve to keep the temp controlled before it runs through the radiant system?
Yeah, I understand that this is a great method for pre-heating the water going into the tank but in no way is an ideal method for DHW from an outdoor wood boiler (or any boiler). Simply use some extra fittings, a pump, and a Johnson A421 and you will have full control over the tank temperature....none of this inject 180F in and you'll have 130F hopefully. Hydronic heating is about control and comfort! -CIPH Certified Designer
At 5:00 you’re talking about feeding your domestic hot water first…How about putting in parallel the domestic hot water heat exchanger and the heating system?
I'm going to speculate that based on what Jeff said if you connect as per your design you will need to add a mixing valve in order to prevent burns. According to Jeff (and a couple of others who have commented on their personal experience) the tank will heat to around 140 based on boiler water at 180. 140 is the temp that most tanks are set to in order to prevent Legionnaires' disease and most people are able to deal with that temp without the addition of a mixing valve or anti-scalding valve. The mixing valves are set to 120F but all to often the temp at the tap ends up being much less and so people don't like have these devices installed in the DHW circuit. Don't even consider your design without a mixing valve...150 to 170 degree hotwater will cause very serious burns.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Just moved into a place with a wood boiler (my first) and so many new things to figure out. Great video and very detailed explanation, helped me out a lot!
Bought your 10 plate heat exchanger after watching this video. My family and i are extremely happy with the hot water it provides.
Great to hear! It is amazing isn't!
Just installed my 20 plate exchanger yesterday as shown here...outdoor wood burner...family of 4...multiple showers and the gas burner in the water heater hasnt had to come on once! stayed hot all night with no circulation...just the thermal pressure siphon. like the man says..it works..try it!
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ruclips.net/user/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Red, White and Blue.
Ok - I’m not a plumber but I have enough of an engineering background and the necessary skills to tackle installations such as this. I have to admit I was dubious about whether this would work but this easy solution was too tempting not to try to cut cost and save time - after all these are the heating experts. I Tried to get questions answered and was even one of the first customers on their Facebook group- still no response!
So anyway I go ahead and fit as shown. Now I admit I’m not using a furnace as a heat source - I’m using solar water. I was a bit late starting the installation in the year but in September the configuration was complete. Even with solar fluid temperatures of 60C arriving at the heat exchanger installed in this manner, there was no heat transference at all. I had installed the solar controller and temperature sensors as monitoring, however, the pressure equalization obviously did not happen the way Jeff describes it will and the top of the tank remained stone cold.
Now I know the furnace was probably pumping out more heat than my Solar in September but I can assure you there was no heat transference at all.even after leaving it for a couple of weeks till I could get around to replumbing it.
I had a pumped closed loop system with a 30 plate 230,000 btu exchanger. I reconfigured the pipe work reverting to my original design prior to seeing this vid and installed a circ pump in the DHW tank. Yep that worked and heat transference was good right from the getgo. I used copper piping and brass compression fittings throughout. I did not want to use soldered fittings as I was still unsure of the credibility of this configuration. I’m glad I did. This made making changes way easier.
I later came across further reviews of this in googles pages when I actually searched Jeff Luffs name. Suffice to say they weren’t favourable by any means, plumbers stating that it bore no evidence to science and physics. Personally, if anyone is hoping to save time as I did, I would reconsider these remarks before commencing. I’d love to be proved wrong but I can assure you the installation I tried was as shown above. It’s a pity I didn’t get any responses at all from your company prior to commencement. Perhaps the reasons above explain why- so Sorry Jeff but it didn’t work for me!
Thanks for this post. I was skeptical of Jeff's design and have ordered a heat exchanger and pump like you did. I appreciate the troubles you went through, and that you posted them so others don't have to go through them as well.
Did you have a Circulation pump on your Solar side?
If you do it right, you don't need a circulation pump on the domestics hot water. I don't think what Jeff is talking about works, except, if you have a hot tank and use hot water often. That would heat the incoming water to the hot water tank to what ever the boiler has.
What I did was a copper pipe over another copper pipe heat exchanger. Inside copper pipe is domestic water outside is boiler water, the pipe is vertical and beside the tank, plumbed into the top and bottom of the tank. The boiler heats the water in the pipe and hot water wants to go up,, colder water comes in to replace it. This worked very well. just have to buy the kit with the special connections.
Could not stop laughing when I watched this video. What total nonsense!
Not sure what any of you are talking about it works perfectly I ran my 2 shower dishwasher 3 sinks and my tub never went cold and have yet to have anyone complain about a cold shower and my son is well know for his steamy marathon showers used to run cold on him with my oil boiler
I bought this water heater ruclips.net/user/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
Update! we have been running our 20 plate exchanger installed as shown here since Jan 8th and the gas has been turned off to the
water heater since install. still working great and unlimited hot water as long as we feed the boiler. doesn't use much. for all the nay sayers. it really works
Robbie did you use a mixing valve or piped like Jeff has it
The plate heat exchanger on top of the water heater does not create circulation like a side arm that will continuously circulate until the water inside the water heater reaches a temperature within a few degrees of the outdoor furnace water temperature. The hot water that resides in the plate exchanger stays there because it is hotter/less dense than the water in the tank. By heating the water as it enters the water heater, the temperature of heated domestic water will likely be hotter than the thermostat on the water heater depending on the exchanger size, 20 or 30 plate and the water flow gpm, but it mixes with the water in the tank that looses some temperature over time. When the new "demand" occurs by someone turning on the hot water facet, the newly heated water which enters the tank and is force lower in the tank through the Dip Tube on the cold inlet. That water that is hotter than the temperature of the water near the bottom of the tank is also less dense and will immediately rise as it mixes with the water in the tank. This lower density hotter water entering the tank rising to top helps to immediately mix and create good output of hot water mixed with the other water in the tank. If the water flow "demand" were to continue for a long time period and the plate exchanger is sized to create water that is higher than the thermostat stetting will result in the water temperature increasing over time. If the exchanger is not large enough to heat the incoming water to a temperature that satisfies the users liking, a larger exchanger could be used. It would be easy to identify by installing an inline temperature measuring device(thermocouple or temperature gauge) on the heated water line entering the water heater tank. If it is not at least 140 degrees, it likely will not satisfy the user. It is important if one wants to understand how the system works, to realize hot water is lighter (less dense) and will rise above water that is lower temperature, heavier (more dense) than the hotter water. i have heard of very few complaints from those using a 20 or 30 plate exchanger shown installed as Jeff has demonstrated. The amount of btus added to the water is a much higher exchange rate than the side arm. Because the side arm heats the water to a much higher temperature the hot water lasts a very long time when it is mixed down using the tempering valve but can be dangerously hot if a mixing valve is not used. Also some gas valves contain a thermal protection that will disable the valve if it gets to hot. Most have to be replace if they trip that thermal protection. I have heard of that occuring several times with the use of the side arm exchanger and the outdoor furnace thermostat setting very high. These gas valves are quite costly. I have never heard of that occurring with the plate exchanger mounted on top of the water heater. It would have to be a large enough exchanger to heat the incoming water to a very high temperature, again a temperature valve installed in the line of the heated water would identify that. That heated water temperature should be quite stable when the plate exchanger on top of the water heater is used because the cold incoming water temperature is very stable and the outdoor furnace water temperature should only change 10 to 20 degrees depending on the thermostat differential. If a very slow water flow out of the water heater occurs for a long time the water temperature entering the tank will be higher because the exchange time for the water passing through the exchanger will increase the heated temperature.
So what happens to the hot water in the tank once it goes through the plate exchanger and sits in the tank for a couple hours when your not using the hot water, does it get cold and then your heating elements turn on anyways?
Ok not sure if you still read these comments but here we just purchased a classic edge hdx 760 will be installing in the spring
My house heating system is a oil boiler 5 zone baseboard 5 zone is domestic hot water if I'm not mistaken I should only have to connect a heat exchanger to the return side of my oil boiler and I should be good for everything correct is how big of an exchanger do I need
My garage has no heat yet I'll be figuring that out next lol
If you install like my video says you will be good to go. Please make sure you call us to help size the heat exchanger and the pump you will need. Thanks
Looking to run DHW and floor heat off of an outdoor wood boiler. Possibly get one of your hydro kits in the future based on the output from the floor. But do you have any videos or recommendations on how to plumb the dhw and radiant floor system?
If you hook it up the way it shows, it works. The electric to my Electric Hot Water Tank has been off since September 2016 and my water is hot. In my installation, my boiler water temp is approximately 180° and my hot water at my sinks and shower is approximately 140°. My circulation pump runs 24/7 through the plate to plate heat exchanger.
How is your hot water not 180?
@@ralphy1989 law of thermodynamics. There is a loss of BTUs in the "exchange" process.
Hi. I really like this product. Can this be dangerous in any way? Can it build up some kind of pressure? I have a woodboiler and a circ.pump, would it be okey to run the water through the exchanger with the pump?
Yer cross flow hand motion was backwards ....hey question Jeff can I mount the HX off to the side on the side of the cabinet at the same height
Very helpful as I am getting ready to do this. Only thing I don't see that u have showed is where and how do u plumb in for a mixing valve. I would really like to see a video with the same application of the plate exchanger with adding the mixing valve.
Ok thanks for the suggestion. I will add it to the list of videos. Thanks Jeff
I to would really like to see a video with a mixing valve. Are you going to do this anytime soon.
No mixing valve needed. That happens at the exit source. This is just one pipe feeding the heater tank. Mixing a happens at the sink or the shower.
I used to have a side arm heat exchanger on my old tank and it worked well, but I had to replace the tank and the side arm had gone bad. I’m considering putting a plate exchanger on my newer tank in a similar set up like you have. Do you recommend running the boiler loop to the exchanger constantly, or do you somehow have a thermostat set up on your tank so that it kicks the boiler pump on only when the temperature drops? In other words, does the plate exchanger continue to heat the water in the tank even when the hot water is not in use, and there is no fresh cold water flowing through the exchanger?
If my water heater is currently plumbed with 3/4" pvc pipe, how long of a copper or brass nipple do I need on the cold water inlet of the plate heat exchanger before I can convert back to the pvc?
With the sidearm heat exchanger you talked about a “thermal block” when the water has to go down into the water tank. Can you please explain why this isn’t an issue with the plate exchanger you have here? I have a pool-style Pahlen heat exchanger that worked great with our previous water tank but isn’t working well at all with our new water tank. I’m wondering about a thermal block even though the exchanger is only sitting a few inches off the floor and the supply line feeding hot water to the boiler only drops a few inches before entering the tank. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
So you don't put a thermostat to shut the circulation pump off once the potable tank gets up to temp? You just let it keep circulating?
I used the power of a thermal siphon by installing heat exchanger at the bottom of the electric tank . Added a pressure tank and blending valve for safety. Total cost was $500 CAN. Boiler flow is throttled to HE by valve off continuous flow from circuit from wood gasifier boiler . No additional circulation pumps required. As thermal demand increases the rate of thermal siphon increases. Been running 3 years and have had 5 showers back to back without running out. Unions allow for quick removal and cleaning with citric acid solution.
Jeff I’ll be installing a 20 plate heat exchanger on my hot water tank ..continuing up to a Water to air heat exchanger in my attic my question is does it have to be piped directly on top of the way you have it or can I mount it off to the side (at the same height now) but off mounted to the side of the cabinet the water heater is housed in so my outdoor wood boiler in and out lines make a straighter run
It needs a non-return valve on the cold feed pipe to maintain pressure inside the plate.
I assume the cold feed pipe runs thru the inside of the cylinder to the bottom. The pressure build up in the plate pushes water down the cold feed pipe into the bottom of the cylinder?
Are you just pre-heating the incoming cold water? I am confused at what you are doing.
My main question..
Is there a way to have this heat the water that is in the tank?
Or is it purely to prevent having to heat COOOOOLD water from the main line?
Which actually sounds like it would help alot, to subsidize the heat. just the water tank would still have to turn on eventually to heat up the water once ir cools down...
Does it matter the orientation on mounting the heat exchanger? Can you lay it on it's side? Still running cross flow, hot & cold.
Would you recommend this setup for an existing electric water heater (80 gal) with the plate exchanger heated by a natural gas boiler (of sufficient capacity for both house heating and DHW)? I need to put in a gas new boiler anyway so I'm curious if running a separate pump through the exchanger often (or almost continuously?) plus the cost of gas fuel would be significant cost savings over the regular electrical heating elements. Cost of gas/electric is comparable (gas is $1/therm vs $.1/kWh). The boiler would also be running one of your 20x20 air to water exchangers in a forced air system. Thanks.
when he said " if your water temp drops a few degrees for the wife, you WILL hear about it " , it really hit home hahahahaha
Truth... LOL
would like to know more about running the pex lines to and from outdoor stove and house...how deep ,what line to use, cover with sand...
Jerry Hetzler nun
Another question.
Could this work for a tankless water heater?
(I am guessing not)
excellent video. thanks, well done. how do I fabricate a hot water loop through a wood forsed air furnace?
Sorry, Never tried to do anything like that. Share what you learn.
The house came with a vertical style " tube in tube " side arm heat exchanger. It is 1" copper pipe inside of a 1.5" copper pipe. It is taller than the HWT it is connected to . I am going to install a new HWT in a new location. Would it work if I mounted the side arm HX horizontally in a joist space above the new HWT location? Would the temps of the water in HWT still equalize even though it wouldn't be a traditional layout? The way the system was set up originally it was a wild loop from boiler through HX and back. A tstat would energize the furnace fan relay to maintain set point in house. I added a baseboard fin and tube heater in far corner of bsmt. Put a diverting zone valve in the return line to boiler. Added a tstat to control the zone valve. Now I run the furnace fan all the time. When the upstairs tstat calls for heat, the water goes through the plenum mounted HX. When upstairs is satisfied, the hot boiler water heats the far end of the bsmt through the base board tube n fin HX. Works like a charm. The reason I needed to go this route was I have a Rheem communicating furnace/ thermostat combination. The programming does not allow the addition of a thermostat to be installed in series with the G wire of the furnace, cuz there is no separate G wire as a result of the communication functions . So the only way to regulate the room temp when running the wood boiler is to set the fan to run 24/7 and divert the boiler water when the room tstat is satisfied. I used to run the fan 24/7 when the loop was wild, and the house would over heat every night. It's something all the major furnace companies have overlooked. Even a new high eff furnace that uses a G wire to energize the fan , making it possible to add a separate tsat to control the furnace fan as W1 doesn't allow a very high volume of air when the fan terminal is energized. A 3 ton ECM blower only allows around 350 cfm for fan only operation . At really cold ODT the low volume of air has trouble keeping up with heat loss.
Good God you got a lot going on. Don't know how to help a system like that. to many parts.
Hello, I just have a couple quick questions for ya. First off, my wife and I will be building a house and shop out on some property that we recently bought and I'm really wanting to do an outdoor wood burning setup. I plan to have radiant heat in the floors in the basement, and mounted under the floors of the main floor of the house. I also intend to heat our hot water with the setup as well. The main question that I have is, what kind of temps can a guy expect to see in the boiler water on the downstream side of the exchanger in the setup you've put together for this video. I ask this because I wonder if the boiler water(after going through the first exchanger) would be warm enough still to be circulated through a second exchanger to supply the radiant floor heat setup. Or, would I just be best off to run a second line into the house and use that second circuit? Thanks for your video, it answered a lot of questions that I have been trying to answer!
That is not a simple answer! way too many variables. Give us a call 203 881-1602
Plate heat exchanger vs side arm heat exchanger water heater which is better to install on a domestic hot water heater with a wood boiler
Hey Guys,
Like the video. I'm skeptical about the tank heat not coming on without a circulator between the heat exchanger and tank, but if it's close enough (directly connected to the tank), are you sure this works reliably?
On a slightly different note, I have a client who has a long run of uninsulated hot water line and has to run the hot water for too long, so I'm planning to install a small circulator and recirc line back to the tank to give. Where would you recommend installing the return water connection & check valve from the recirc line? before or after the heat exchanger, or directly back into the tank?
Thanks.
Same skepticism here. There would need to be a recirculating line that allowed the water to flow through the plate exchanger and water heater. Thermal siphon will work but we usually have to remove the check valves on the return line or it won’t siphon.
Another awesome video. Keep them coming!
Do I have to use this heat exchanger only when I have a second boiler?
Can I just use it to recover hot water coming down the shower drain?
If I could reclaim the heat out of my shower and preheat the cold water, coming to the shower head, I could create a small loop where you could take a shower, where your recovering the majority of the heat
You can try, I have never tried it myself. My thoughts would be the ROI on the material for the energy savings return on investment won't be worth it. Jeff
Is it possible to do something similar with a tankless hot water heater?
I have installed this as you said and tested it, It barely heats the tank if no one is using the hot water. Maybe I did something wrong my heat exchanger is a few feet away from the tank inlet.
Why wouldn't you install a check valve and exp tank on the domestic inlet? Seems like that hot water will migrate quite a ways upstream on the cold side.
What is the recovery time for this system? Is it as fast as using a pump? I am very curious to use this with our boiler as it is simpler than the pumped system.
A pump is faster for sure, But for most people the recovery is more then enough for a family of four or five
I was figuring on doing this but adding a small circulator pump with a thermostat so the water in the tank will stay warm even when you're not drawing hot water.
Hello can I ask a question. I live in Italy and have just had a boiler stove fitted. It's used exclusively for the radiators by using a heat exchanger but there is not water tank. In your opinion would a boiler stove work more efficiently with a hot water store? I notice the radiators work but i think it should work better. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
So this heat exchanger is installed without a separate circulator or means to turn the loop off and on as needed? Wouldn't a loop with an aquastat and separate circulator be safer? If it works as shown then great but I'm skeptical.
Add into existing loop
Would there be a need for a tempering valve? or just figure the existing tank as tempering the water?
Tempering valves are very helpful to simplify the process and protect you from burns. I have one.. Jeff
My oil boiler and wood boiler are tied in together, I have an electric domestic hot water tank, can I tie into it and leave the electric on with a low setting? only burn wood in the Winter. Thanks
I would mount a plate exchanger on your Boiler to separate the two systems and then you can use another plate exchanger to heat your domestic hot water. Simple fix.. Happy heating Jeff
Does it matter which side is the domestic water side and which side is the stove side or as long as they are running side by side it works?
Great video. Would you recommend side arm vs plate changer for a water tank? is one more effective than other? what type of water tank is the most effective at heating when used with echanger, bottom feed or top feed?
I would probably use a sidearm, I can visualize the natural convection with that setup better. A plate heat exchanger, from my experience, is more efficient needs a circulation pump.
Neither need a circulating pump, if installed properly.
I personally don't recommend a side arm....the recovery rate with a. Side arm suuuuuuuucks. With the hex, the water coming in isn't cold it's already heated up pretty good
Do you have video for mixing valve on owb for floor heat. Where does the pump go thanks
No I don't. Sorry... Radiant flooring has a lot of variables
Thinking about ways to add solar thermal hot water to my current gas water heater. How does this work to add heat to the tank if there is no call for hot water at the moment? If no hot taps are open, then no cold (heated by the heat exchanger) is flowing into the tank right?
Could this work with solar as long as the input temp to the heat exchanger is higher than cold ground water inlet temp?
I have not played with solar to much. The couple times I tried, I was not happy with results. I would love to hear what you come up with. Jeff
Great video👌👍
Thank you 👍
So I'm installing a new Central wood boiler and I'm curious if there's any way to hook this up with my tankless water heater? Space is at a premium in my house so I opted for a water softener and went with a tankless water heater. Now I'm interested in using my wood boiler to cut down on my propane cost, so I'm curious if there's any way to cut it further by using my wood boiler to heat with a tankless water system?
no, I have never tried and I can't think of any way to do it. sorry
Jeff I received a bell&gosset 20 plate heat exchanger to install on my DHW tank and the gurus at bell and gosset tell me I can’t 180 it to make the lines flow without crisscrossing ....it won’t install like the one you have...the boiler supply and return ports are different...can it be 180’d It makes no sense why not
Does the outdoor wood stove circulating water pump have to run continuously for the domestic water plate heat exchanger to work? Seems to me it would have to.
Yes it should, or it might freeze as well very difficult and expensive to setup to turn on when needed. Pumps only cost $10 to 15 bucks a month to run. Pretty cheap in the long run.
I’m curious about the risk of freezing your wood fired outdoor boiler. I’m trying to help out a friend who’s husband passed away get the wood fired system up and running. The system is hooked to a heat exchanger on their furnace. Their is also a plate exchange tied into the domestic hot water system. If the wood fired boiler is not firing what prevents that system from freezing? FYI I live in MN.
They make an anti-freeze that can be added to the water.
will i need to add shut off valves to the wood stove line to keep from back heating my wood stove in the summer time? does it matter how far away from the water heater inlet the heat exchanger is? say if the heat exchanger was 5 feet to the side of the water heater would it still work as good as being mounted direct? will this work as an on demand system so i can turn the power off to the water heater? doesn't the hot water back feed the cold line to the rest of the cold system before the water heater inlet?
Can i go from my wood boiler, to my gas boiler through a plate exchanger for my DHW then to another exchanger for for Central heat? Have two exchangers in one loop before returning to the wood boiler
My heat exchanger is 23 years old, had to flush it due to not picking up heat well from the new Maxim boiler, should I just replace it?
Yes. Make life easy... Jeff
We will be using off-peak power and installing a Marathon boiler which is heavily insulated. If you run the boiler at 180 degrees and want the hot water set at 130 in the tank... Does the water in the tank exceed the 130 setting ?..... this question applies to both side arm and plate exchanger. Thanks
+vogelkj2001 Good question, no it will not. Its called a "Thermal Pressure Siphon". If you jump the video above to about 3:22 in, we go over this.
Thanks!
I have a 10 plate heat exchanger i have an outdoor wood boiler. I have never had enough hot water would getting a 20 or 40 plate give me more hot water and would the boiler handle that much without cutting down on house heat.... thanks
no way I could know that, try a 20 plate not the 40
Since the heat exchanger heats up the water in the tank with boiler heat, I can just use a water holding tank and don't need a regular water heater with its own heating source, correct?
Possibly, you will need a stainless steal pump to circulate and a thermostat to regulate the tank water. The tank will lose heat over time. Easier to use Domestic hot water tank to handle this simple things. Jeff
Are plate exchangers needed/ efficient if the outdoor boiler is pressurized? Or is it easier/ more efficient to tie outdoor wood boiler in with indoor pressurized propane boiler? Thanks!
Out door boilers use a glycol solution to protect them from freezing. The plate style heat exchanger keep potable water from mixing with the glycol solution.
I have a plate exchanger, forced air exchanger in plenum and 4 loops from a manifold. Is having the manifold also in this chain ok?
Should be ok as long as water doesn't have options which way it can go. Water like most humans travels the path of least resistance..
Would this work with a hphw heater? The water enters from the bottom of my model (Rheem Pro Terra 65 gal). Where would I put the plate exchanger?
I have never done it, But I think it would work as the water fill shouldn't matter where it is entering. The plate mount to the cold line going into the bottom of your tank... Jeff
I have replaced my 40 g water heater with a 60 gallon heater and reinstalled the plate exchanger the same way. Does not seem to be heating the water in the tank. Any thoughts? Great videos btw
So no thoughts then?
I can help you. Email me at coltonw@heatinn.com
So are you unplugging your water heater and the plate exchanger will keep the tank heated?
No, leave it on. If it is installed correctly it won't turn on because it will be already hot water.
I was skeptical, but our circuit breaker has been off for almost 24 hours.1 shower, 1 load of dishes and 2 loads of laundry later and our hot water is hot.Simply by circulating 180 degree wood boiler water through it.
cjwo ood in the morning is the hot water tank cold since you were not using it all night with the breaker off on hot water tank
andrew Weber yes. stays hot
Hi, I would like to install an inline Electric heat exchanger into my indoor gas boiler line. how would I go about doing this and can it keep my 1400 foot house at 50 degrees in michigan, while my insert is heating the rest of the house? what are some of possible alternatives to using something other than gas?
I know nothing about "Inline Electric heat exchanger" Sorry I can't help you... If there is a will there is a way!
I’m using a side arm heat exchanger in my shop now and getting ready to hook up the house to the boiler. Would you recommend one exchanger over the other?
I have the same question, The plate exchanger looks like the simplest install. Would love to know what gets the most bang for the buck.
My installer put our plate exchanger under my house. I have moved and am in the process of reinstalling my outdoor furnace and would like to know if it's better that the box be in the house with the water heater or under the house like it was installed previously?
It has to be on top of the domestic hot water tank or it wont work.
properly
@@AltheatsupplyLLC In Australia the Cold inlet connection point is down the bottom of the HWS Tank, Do i still need to mount the Exchanger above the tank or should it work at the bottom of the tank too. Cold water enters at the bottom of the tank on both types right?
Jeff ..what size heat exchanger would i use for a supply to a closed loop hydronic radiant floor system...two zones 1500 feet of loops in each zone
You will need to consult a radiant guy. I know some but not an expert. Sorry
Hi Jeff I am planning a creative build on a sprinter van. if I wanted to heat 5 gallons of water quickly using the diesel engine coolant lines, what size plate exchanger would you recommend?
That is outside the box! I would think it wouldn't take much at all.
i have a side arm heat now that works well, temp is 180, but i run out of hot water after 60 min of running water, if i add the plate exchanger? should i add it to the hot out of tank ?
john harris
I do but only with an anti-scald mixing valve
Is there a noticeable heat loss on the return line to the forced air after the plate exchanger
I have seen about a 10 to 20 degree water temp drop. Jeff
Is there a recommended way to clean the heat exchanger? We had a new wood boiler installed last year and are noticing that it is hard to get hot water to the bathtub this year. We have really hard water even though it goes through a softer system. I am thinking that there may be scale built up on the plates. Was thinking of taking it off and running CLR through the well side?
No real good way to clean them, you can use CF205 & White vinegar every year to keep them clean. we sell the cf205 to work with white vinegar as a yearly maintenance.
if you can lower the temp it will not build up that fast
??? This is a surprise answer from you! Of course you can clean them! I do mine about every other year! Take the heat exchanger completely off of the system. I found a fitting that connects to the threaded fittings on the heat exchanger (it happens to be a washing machine hose) which also screws onto the garden hose bib nicely. I run the garden hose slowly first. All of this black, iron much comes out of the heat exchanger. I then put the hose on full blast until the water is clean. I do this to ALL 4 threaded ports several of times. When I put the heat exchanger back on my heating system, it works like brand new! My hot water heat exchanger is about 25 years old and my whole house heat exchanger is 12 years old. Good luck!
Some stuff washes out, but build ups of hard water don't come out. I have soaked in acid for a week with no success.
Twindadx2 ......I use spirits of salt acid to clean mine every year , it takes about 30 mins to clean it like new then just give it a good flush through with your garden hose and re assemble , this method works every time....👍
You said over and over that you should use good quality brass fittings but the heat exchanger is stainless and copper. Is there any reason or downside to using ss fittings instead of brass?
No... Stainless are very uncommon
@@AltheatsupplyLLC is there any reason not to though, I have several ss fittings that would work perfectly and I would assume would be even better than brass or copper if cost isnt an issue.
@@bradwitte2835 Yes of course you can use it.
My plumber put a T in the clod side of the hot water heater. And put the heat exchanger on the side of the tank. And feed the bottom of the tank with the hot water. It worked for 2 weeks and now we have warm water. I don't know y he put a T in the line . I think he is feeding cold water in the tank and the heat exchanger can't keep up. Do you have an answer?
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. But I would have him reinstall it correctly. Jeff
How would this work in the summer when the ac is on?
shouldn't have any effect at all on domestic hot water. for your furnace put a by pass in so it doesn't hear house air.
at 4.22 you say the exchanger heats up the tank water and the persure is the thing that causes the tank to heat up? you would need a check valve to get persure. but while there is no flow in the tank side of the exchanger you still think it will heat tank water? there is no return to the tank from the exchanger, how will it circulate? i only see it as supplementary heating for the in-feed line for the tank when the tank in feed line is flowing.
horseshoe182 .. confused me also. if cold water is flowing in I presume there would be heat transfere but static water NO flow I dont think so. Plus , without check valves what happens when tank temp falls below the source temp. Thermal syphon I think.
So would the water heater warm the boiler if the boiler goes down and keep it warm in freezing temperatures
No, the indoor boiler or furnace would do that if it goes down.
Help me understand your statement near the 3 minute mark. The plates on the exchangers you sell are 40% thicker and last the life of a boiler (25 years?) yet competitor exchangers are, call it nominal thickness, and require replacement every 5 years?
the water in the units have particles and blast the exchanger like a sand blaster in side the plate exchangers which make them fail. most plate exchangers were designed for a cleaner environments.
Could that be connected as a separate hydronic convection loop?
How would I connect to a closed loop condenser boiler with no head tank, just an expansion vessel situated inside my boiler
I'm not the best person for that question.. Sorry Jeff
Hey jeff, could i add one of these to my oil condensing combi boiler?. I have a wood burner in my garage i want to combine.
Btw great videos
From scotland
Hi I had two oil boilers in my 5900 sq ft house ran two plate exchangers from my central boiler and heated house and hot water made a control so when boiler water got to cold oil would take over still working great 18 yrs and going
@@johnbixler1758 awesome where is best to put the plate exchangers. What kind of control did you use.
Merry christmas!
@@russellmcallister6830 Hi and merry Christmas to you I used 2 20 plate in on the wall near the boiler ran the supply into the back of the boiler and teed off the return on the main supply to the house baseboard back to the plates I used two of them because I had two boilers because of the size of the house you may need only one do you have zone controls for your house as this will tell me about the base control you will need
@@johnbixler1758 hey John, no m8 no zone control just an oil condensing combi boiler with a stat control. I hope to fit a plate in the new year.
@@russellmcallister6830 Ok let me give you my email so I can help you with this bixlerco6@gmail.com
My whole Howe is PVC, can pvc connections be used? If not how far from the heat exchanger can I return to PVC pipe?
No... PVC can't handle the water temps..
Jeff, I would really like to see a video or an addon to this video on how to add a mixing valve to this setup.
Ok thank you for the suggestion, it is on the short list.
do you need a mixing valve
Kerry Marshall you really should. You cannot control the temperature without one.
What about a tankless hot water heater? How do you run a hot water heat heat exchanger?
You realy don't have a good option for that. Jeff
When you recommend a 20 plate heat exchanger, is that the 3x8 or the 5x12. Which btu is recommended for a family of 3-4?
10
So help me out please, I understand the no need for pump on the inlet of the DHW tank. But the boiler side would have a pump to circulate from a hot side / cold side header system correct? How would i control that circ pump? I wouldnt imagin it would need to run 24/7. How would I prevent my DHW tank from reaching boiler temp?
The pump from the boiler runs 24 /7. The DHW tank will mantain a steady 125 to 130 F, it is based on pressure.
I am get ready to install a plate exchanger on the top of my electric hot water tank. My question is: where the cold water supply comes into the exchanger does it need a flo-check valve to get the pressure from the hot water to enter the tank and not back flow to my cold water supply?
No it is not necessary, but it is also not a bad idea if you have water pressure fluctuation.
I think that maybe a mistake Jeff. The cold water line is the only connection to the pressure tank (in a well system) or line pressure (if served by the municipality). As temperature increases and pressure builds (as per your comments in the video) that pressure must go some where...and it will push back on the bladder or municipal system. A one way valve will likely cause the tank or tubing to rupture. Correct me if I am wrong please.
The hot water tank is cooling loosing pressure, so that is where the extra pressure is going. I haven't heard of a bladder tank going bad. The domestic hot water tank is usually 120 to 125 degrees, with the heat exchanger it will increase about 5 degrees taking up the extra pressure.
Thanks Jeff. I am not sure what you are referring to regarding the bladder tank unless you misunderstood my reference to the hotwater tank. To make my point clearer (and I still stand to be corrected) if the hotwater tank is drained for maintenance and then refilled with cold water in the summer when the boiler is off, turning the electric elements back on will cause the water to heat up and expand. If there is a check valve in the cold water supply the pressure will have no where to expand to as the check valve will prevent it from travelling back along the cold water line to the pressure tank or municipal system. Does that make more sense? By the way I am pretty sure the standard tank temperature now (at least in Ontario Canada) is 140F.
Boiler hook up to in floor heat please 🙏
HI I WATCHED VID ITS GREAT ! i have a wood stove with heat coils in out pipe no circulating pump do i need 1 and it also has no temperature control so dont no temp coming out of it! and i have in well jet pump and 60 40 pressure tank can i hook system up same way?with the pressure 60 40 coming in to heat exchanger? please help? do i need circulating pump or temperature control ? i want to run threw my electric furnace also with rad like you showed on plenum but i only have 3 inches of plenum away from ac a rad for heat pump dose this matter?
stove is a rsf hf65
What is the size of the diameter in and out of the interchanger? Regards
How hot does the plate heat exchanger get while it is in function? As in how hot to the touch is it externally?
+123italyabcdefg
It depends on the water temp. if it is 180 degrees, about 140
Does it matter if this player exchanger is installed vertical or horizontal
No...
I am installing a 20 plate to a domestic hot water tank that has a radiant floor heating system already hooked up. Will we need to connect the exchanger the same way? Can you provide a diagram if possible? What is the max temp that can be used in the radiant floor?
+Leif Josephsen Radiant flooring has many ways and designs. The basics are the same though if your using a domestic hot water tank. Jeff
+MrDeepvoyage So the temp of the water in the domestic tank witch feeds the radiant ( in concrete floor) system doesn't matter?I don't need a mixing valve to keep the temp controlled before it runs through the radiant system?
+Leif Josephsen yes of coarse it matters. Im not a radiant floor expert. I would asking radiant floor person
Hiii
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What’s better, side arm, or a plate?
I prefer Plates
Yeah, I understand that this is a great method for pre-heating the water going into the tank but in no way is an ideal method for DHW from an outdoor wood boiler (or any boiler). Simply use some extra fittings, a pump, and a Johnson A421 and you will have full control over the tank temperature....none of this inject 180F in and you'll have 130F hopefully. Hydronic heating is about control and comfort!
-CIPH Certified Designer
My thoughts also, I don't see this maintaining a tank to temp with the tanks heating shut down and relying solely on the HX
Can you use galvanized unions to install?
The water treatment you put in these units eat the gallizing. so not recommended. Just use Black iron.
do you need a mixing valve so the water don't get too hot
If you have kids i do recommend, it will increase your hot water temp to about 130 degrees
doesn't get too hot
At 5:00 you’re talking about feeding your domestic hot water first…How about putting in parallel the domestic hot water heat exchanger and the heating system?
+Philippe Laquerre Water will always choose easy path of resistance, that is why we do not recommend Parallel
I'm going to speculate that based on what Jeff said if you connect as per your design you will need to add a mixing valve in order to prevent burns. According to Jeff (and a couple of others who have commented on their personal experience) the tank will heat to around 140 based on boiler water at 180. 140 is the temp that most tanks are set to in order to prevent Legionnaires' disease and most people are able to deal with that temp without the addition of a mixing valve or anti-scalding valve. The mixing valves are set to 120F but all to often the temp at the tap ends up being much less and so people don't like have these devices installed in the DHW circuit. Don't even consider your design without a mixing valve...150 to 170 degree hotwater will cause very serious burns.
not really understanding your question. Sorry
Which type of this PHE???
BTU recommendation for family of 5?