Are We Getting Scammed with Solar?
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- Опубликовано: 22 апр 2024
- Top 5 Reasons We’re Getting Ripped Off With Solar … or Are We? Use code UNDECIDED50 to get 50% OFF your first Factor box plus 20% off your next box at bit.ly/3TiVmO8! Did I get ripped off and scammed with my solar panels? According to the comments on my recent solar panel video, where I compared a Tesla Solar Roof to my more modular solar panel system, I surely did get scammed and ripped off. … but did I? The critical comments really boiled down to 5 basic issues, so let’s take a closer look at those one by one. Are solar panels worth it or are they a scam ... and did I get ripped off?
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Great video
With my house being all electric absolutely not! I save $4000 per year with my solar install. Combine that with the efficiency improvements were making to the house to lower our heating loads and we’re on track to save $5-6,000 per year.
Add to that the fact that it decouples you from energy costs, at least with net metering, and Solar was a no brainer. Especially since our cost of electricity has been skyrocketing.
Could I have taken the 30k and invested it? Sure. But it pays for itself ins 5-7 years. And now over the life of the system I can take that 5-6k in savings per year and invest it for the next 20 years or so.
Can’t imagine it won’t come out in the wash at the end of the day.
No you had your solar panels in horizontal and NOT in vertical insulation!
Thank you for doing this very helpful follow-on video, I think my viewers and readers will appreciate it too!
Reasons fabric ductwork is the future… a drum louvre operates at a minimum ESP of 2.3 inwg, fabric ductwork operates at 0.5 inwg but we’ll say 1 inwg for comparison. That means a drum louvre requires a 5hp motor vs a 2hp motor for fabric. In California that means that you would save $4,400 a year on your energy bill. Please Matt can you do a video on fabric ductwork. It’s the future and it’ll save so much money and energy!!!
So far it seems these people are saying "solar is a scam because its not worth it to me"
Thats not how scams work....
Well, I think this is mostly due to people not knowing what words mean anymore. That and being outraged at everything.
Thats the internet for you. Theres crazy talented people producing content, and theres the other side of the coin where everyone thinks their opinion matters and inside thoguhts are to be put outside. Hell im doing it now... its a matter of filtering the junk.
Exactly
no you got nothing to do with it
They are a scam when they are pushed and sold in countries that don’t get enough sun to ever pay the system off.
I dislike video titles like this. Or do I?
Brain fart back to school
Are you Undecided? With Matt Ferrell?
I see what you did there...or did I?
I'm undecided on how I feel about the tittle.
😂 all ya’ll
Florida resident and solar home owner here. I used to pay around $350 to $400/month for my electric consumption but that was 4 years ago when electricity was 10 cents/kWh. I told septics costs typically go up significantly each year, something people tend to scoff at as hype for solar. In fact I was skeptical. But here we are today at $16 cents/kWh. I calculated my break even at 10 to 12 years based on the 10 cent rate. Another thing people overlook was best expressed by Ben Franklin, “a penny saved is a penny earned”. My solar investment is returning close to 8% in “savings” or earnings depending on how you look at it. Had you invested that money in a bond, for example, the 8% return would be taxable. The return on your solar investment is tax free. Not only that, because of the 25% federal tax credit I was able use IRA money that would have not only been taxed as income but would have counted to increase the amount of SS income taxable effectively tax free. Plus in FL there is no sales tax on solar equipment or labor. Add to that the increase in the value of your home attributed to solar is not assessable by property taxes. Critics can say what they want but often it’s politically motivated. My feeing is criticize all you want while I laugh all the way to the bank.
Touche my friend! Here I am just signed a contract to get solar installed. I am located in Florida and I have calculated exactly the same return rate of 8.2%-8.7%. Compared to a CD of 5% (3.5%-4% earned - after taxes), it does not stack well against Solar. I did all the math myself and it makes so much sense in my case. Kuddos to you and your post! I am installing GAF Solar Shingles and the entire roof can be claimed for federal tax credit of 30%. I think Matt said it really well in his video, not all the cases are equal and solar may not make sense for some people but there are many cases that solar makes so much sense!
"The return on your solar investment is tax free. " Nothing is free guy. Your neighbors are paying for your system. Nothing worse than disingenuous arguments about Solar being a "good deal" for people. Germany and Australia power coasts 2 to 4 times more than US power. Why's that? Because they have gone with expensive power generation.
@@spazoq rubbish. there are bugger all incentives any more, and South Australia has horrible power costs because our "conservative" government of the time sold off our power grid with guarentees of profit - this mean the owners can rip us off for every cent they want.
The last conservative federal government organised to pay to keep running old, worn out and overdue for closure, coal plants (at OUR cost ) because they are literally "anti-renewable" - how is that added cost caused by solar?.
One recent conservative ex-prime minister was even playing with a chunk of coal while making a speech - can you guess where they get most of thier election funding?
You get around 1/10th of your cost per kw/h as a "reward" for exporting, and the power company can stop your export remotely if theres too much solar - so if theres too much free power, you get 0c - how is that costing your neighbors anything?
So nowadays at least, you can't make the claim its everyone else thats paying for your free power.
And with 44% of our homes having solar, its obvious most of us aren't sucked in by the anti-solar FUD
How are neighbours 'paying' for the OP's system @@spazoq?
"The return on your solar investment is tax free" - Don't say that too loudly or the government (regardless of which side is in office) will find a way to label the money saved as "unearned income".
As an Australian I can confirm - my 7kw solar system cost $8k installed before subsidies, which reduced it to $4k. My solar system has already paid for itself after 4 years.
Were the planets and moons extra? 😜
Then you have to divide it by 2 to get USD.
I did a DIY install. When getting the paperwork ready for the permit application, I did a lot of homework. I researched county and city codes to see what I could and could not do. I created very detailed drawings on how and where I was going to install everything including specs for all the parts. When I turned in my application, I was told they would let me know when it was approved. They called ten minutes later (on my way home) to let me know the permit has been issued. I turned around, picked it up and started installing the next day. I had everything installed in two days. The county inspector came out on the third day and approved everything. The electric company came out on the fourth day, did their tests then installed the bidirectional meter and I was online. The county inspector told me my detailed application made it easy for them to approve the permit.
What state do you live in? Some places are easy (I live in remote, rural Texas, and if I go off grid, I have Zero permit requirements). Other places are a bit more onerous...
You must live in a red state.
Sounds like a great place to live.
This is what I keep saying it is a scam unless you install it by yourself
I did mine DIY, but I didn’t do any permits. The reason is, I did an off grid system just for that very reason. And yes, I can go back on the grid whenever I want to.
As an engineer, I really apricate your breakdown of different renewable energy sources. There is a quote from one of your videos that sums it up "its not about getting a silver bullet, it is choosing the bullet appropriate for the situation" These videos have helped me learn and understand more about the world of renewables.
Keep up the great work!
thought all bullets served one purpose :)
Solar is a ripoff in usa due to exorbitant labor charges etc.
In india a 5kwp system on grid costs like 4000 usd commissioned.
That is after paying high taxes on solar component imports.
@@nhilistickomrad4259 The costs may be high but had I not installed Solar, I would really be ripped off from my Utilities which now cost .45 cents per Kwh. Getting solar was one of the best financial decisions ever.
Every country has a different cost of living and comparing India to US is basically apples versus oranges.
@@Travlinmo cost of living isnt really related to products ike that :) products cost what they cost to manufacture plus a margin, seeing as most madde in china they are the same price in chinese yen or whatver it is haha
We built a house in Vermont. Occupied it in October 2019. Had a total of 20 PV panels on 3 sections of roof. 10 face south, 5 east and 5 west. Max generation is 400 watts per panel. Cost was $23000. In 2023 we finished a separate 3 car garage. Last fall we added 22 440 watt panels on the south facing roof and 2 Tesla Powerwalls. The Tesla control panel is awesome and can full control from the Tesla app. Before tax credit the was $46,000. An unplanned expense was $7500 for the electric company to furnish and install a 25 kW transformer to replace the existing 10 kW one. We got a 30% federal tax credit on the whole cost.
Up here we don’t get as much sun as we would want, but we still get power even on some rainy days.
On those good days we charge the batteries and run the house on solar during the day and batteries at night. Excess goes to the grid. Chargers our cars the same way.
We don’t dare about payback. It’s an investment in preserving our planet, which is payback enough.
It's also an up-front cost that one invests in when you have the budget for it. And after that the bills get distinctly lowered. Less must-pay bills. Which is a real pay-off in itself.
It would be great if everyone was as conscientious you, along with having $46,000 spare.
Thanks for the replies. Let me point out that I’m 74 and retired. I did work for over 50 years to be able to save for a decent retirement. What has worked for me is a not early enough IRA, work 401k’s with decent matches, Federal rules on catchup contributions and a Roth IRA. If you can do a Roth….do it. Withdrawals from non-Roth costs 20% in Federal and state taxes. That said, I was able to find the funds via the earnings from my funds and still left with no principal loss (except for market fluctuations). Regardless the panels and batteries were a stretch, but I see them as an investment in the future for my survivors and a contribution to easing climate change. Oh, and the $16,000 federal tax refund is awesome.
@@jaykaknes1133 cool story bro. Guess I'll wait another 43 years to invest in preserving the Earth. Of course by then it'll take more the $46,000 and I'll be so old I won't give a shit because I could die at any moment anyway and we only have like 6 years left according to the experts like AOC so what's the point? But hey, at least YOU got to brag about your nice life and what a good person you are online. So there's that I guess.
@@edmondgreen7970 "But hey, at least YOU got to brag about your nice life and what a good person you are online" - It's funny how jealous people always view simple conversation as "bragging". Imagine how little we would have to discuss if we could never say anything which someone might perceive as some sort of accomplishment (thus labeling it as "bragging").
The fact that solar installation is mired in so many details related permits, installation, configurations and cost, makes your channel and others more valuable.
The fact that it's like that tells me it's all a scam and many people are dipping into the pot.
@@edmondgreen7970 maybe, I welcome your opinions. Please share here 🙏
I'm fortunate to reside in Australia, where the setup cost for a 9.62kW SunPower panel system combined with a 10kWh SENEC v3 battery is significantly lower, at US$11K installed. And because I’m in Western Australia, known for its high sun exposure, allows me to generate close to 15,000 kWh annually! This ample solar energy not only powers my entire household, including the swimming pool, but also charges my EV during the daytime, as I work from home. Consequently, I haven't incurred any charging costs for the past 7 months.
In 2023, my total electricity bills amounted to less than US$175, despite including the charging costs for my EV, which has covered 30,000km (18.6k miles) annually.
Suffice it to say, the system has more than paid for itself!
Awsome congrats.
I have a friend over in Perth and every year I am more tempted to ask them how to move there...
hmm, but that makes it ound like they are getting scammed in america haha
I live in Perth, and I got the maximum sized solar array (5kw per phase) without a battery for $10k AUD about 10 years ago. It was one of the cheapest on offer at the time. A battery big enough to power the house in a (regular) blackout would cost me around $30k AUD for a 17kw array. Summer months are great, but I'd have to spend another $20k AUD to reduce the sky-rocketing electricity bills and fill the roof with solar along with getting 3 phases. Ultimately, it still costs a lot relative to your salary to install, and only works if you stay in your house for more than the lifespan of your solar, which for me is at least 15 years to break even on the cost, or 60 years if I wanted to break even on the extra solar and batteries which will need replacing in the meantime. It's not the land of milk, honey, and free electricity here.
@@ljadf being totally offgrid and spending 30k on batteries isnt typical use, usually just a few kw's for outages. panels are really cheap and invertors are cheap
My DIY 5.2 kw microinverter system paid for itself in less than 4 years. The key is not using scam companies.
Agreed, most of the people I hear that say scam is because of the companies.
Any issues with permitting and the like going the DIY route?
It was beneficial to your pocket and to the planet! Going green isn't always just about the cost, the incredible benefits of helping the planet are invaluable. Thank you!
@@sandyfordd1843 This is what I think. Solar is worth the cost to save the planet, but you can't forget about other renewables. If I had a creek I would be running hydro even though good turbines from Langston Alternative Power are expensive.
@@ALMX5DP I had no issues with permitting and approval by the power company. However, this is not always the case. I am an engineer so I wasn’t scared by the process. If you aren’t the DIY type then I would find 3 reputable companies and get bids. I wouldn’t ever use a company that contacted me first. Every government incentivized program ever created attracts scammers.
Its not just the USA that has issues on solar installation costs. Here in Atlantic Canada, electric installation of any sort are subject to an inspection of, get this, LABOUR costs, and if the installer does not charge the IBEW rates they can lose their LICENSE to operate in the area. Its simply ridiculous, especially when the power utility inspectors enforce IBEW rules.....They are employed by the POWER utility, not the IBEW, and should therefore be required to simply inspect the quality of the job that it conforms to local and national codes, NOT IBEW rules. Sorry for the rant, here.
Love your videos, Matt!
I haven’t crunched the numbers or figured out exactly how much it would cost, but last time we were quoted on solar, it would have cost around $40000, that was a few years ago. I just keep hearing that solar panels have gotten exponentially cheaper over the years, so when the price to install a solar system doesn’t budge or gets more expensive over time, it really feels like a scam. Add to that the supposed decrease in battery costs yet being quoted $12000 for a single battery which goes on top of that cost and it really feels like a scam. And there’s always something odd going on with the installation companies and I don’t trust them. Again, it’s probably more of a feeling than something legitimate, but the fact that it feels shady and the fact that prices aren’t going down with the cost of materials makes me feel like it’s not worth it at all.
In South Africa it easily makes sense, as we get rolling power cuts daily, between 2 - 12 hours
Woah! That's definitely a compelling reason to get solar.
@@UndecidedMF It really is. We also get a LOT of sun. Electricity is expensive, and super un-reliable, so being able to be independent of the power cuts is great.
I have a 8kW inverter and 208Ah of batteries, allowing me to charge up fully by 11am, and last the whole night on battery.
you'd get it stolen anyways, or the government would shut it down to prevent competition with its corrupt state monopoly.
The "loadshedding" was every single day last year. And on those days there wasn't, the local transformers fail because of the rolling blackouts. We have a small system but we have seen a reduction from 1200kwh per month to 280kwh. Costs are secondary though
I hear it's a little rough down there, hope you're doing alright.
I look at my solar panels I installed in August of 2018 as being free. From the beginning, I spend less on the monthly payoff of the loan than I have in power generation. Now, I spent years researching and took advantage of federal rebates and I live in west central Florida. I also get to sell my overage back to the power company at a 1:1 rebate.
In fact, I added additional panels a couple of years later when our household got its first plugin hybrid which then added a Tesla Model 3.
In the first few years, my cost for electricity dropped to about $200 per year. After doing some other cost savings (upgrading attic insulation, getting more efficient in house electricity usage, etc.). I haven’t paid for electricity since summer of 2022.
As Matt stated, it depends on your situation, which is how virtually any major investment you do has to be viewed.
Sorry, but you are wrong.
That's why there's only one style and size of house, car, clothing, tv, comput...
See? You are very clearly wrong.
@@tracy419 This is the best response I have ever seen. Thank you so much pointing this out!!!
Some people lol
So you're ripping off your neighbors, who are paying for your overpriced electricity force on them by the Government? You would hate being my neighbor, because I would remind you of the money you took out of my wallet.
I've had solar panels on my house since 2019. The company that installed them also sold me on better insulation, which cost a lot and didn't make much difference in heat/cooling losses.
As an Oregon resident, any extra annual solar energy that is generated is given away once a year, and residents are not allowed to build systems that would generate more than your average annual usage. We also still have to pay a flat $12+ monthly fee to be connected to the grid--a fact no one told me before I had the panels installed.
All that said, I wish I could have more solar panels, and I plan to install a battery wall eventually (but not from Tesla and not while it costs $20k).
Thank you for your tactful approach to criticism. I personally appreciate the structured, informative design of your videos, drawn from your personal experiences and research. Even if you have additional motive for compensations through promotions and ad revenue, you still provide favorable information in unbiased ways that can be incredibly valuable for your viewers. Plus, you meticulously cite your resources.
He never gives the other side, even though he knows it's out there. For instance, he said nothing about the fact that his system is subsidized, and will be forever.
@@spazoq He gives the otherside quite often, typically in the form of:
"Now even though "X" is sponsoring this video, I will say that "Y" is a negative compared with other "X" out there, because of "A, B, and C", especially if cost is a higher priority for you."
He also stresses in many videos, that even though his goals for net $0 power were reasonably affordable for him, that everybody should still put in personal research, as not only can our goals differ, but everything is also differently priced based on a variety of factors. Location being the most noteable. Tax breaks, permitting, cost of living, local installer policies, geographical differences of state laws within the US or different cost benefits of other countries and their construction and energy standards.
There is only so much you can reasonably fit within a RUclips video, lest people sweep it under the rug because the watch time is too high. To avoid information clutter, he even mentions when certain topics are left out of his video, as they are often discussed in his other videos.
Learn to think critically and compare the information presented to you, rather than complaining when it is not dished up on a silver platter for your exact needs alone.
I'm not speaking to solar, but to being ripped off and DIY in general.
A week ago, I added ductless mini split heat pumps to the duplex I own / live in. [One system for each flat.] I got my estimates, and started researching.
I found out that the exact equipment quoted in the bids cost less than 40% of the total bid. Did I feel the HVAC companies were ripping me off? No, because ...
- First, I may be a tech geek, and might have been researching this stuff since I was a teen in the early 1970s ... yes, I'm a little old Boomer Lady.
- Because I'm old, also in declining health and living alone, there's no way I could physically handle this d-i-y.
- The duplex was built in 1900, with old electrical, lath and plaster walls, and fiber-cement siding. I don't have experience dealing with any of that.
- I learn well from written instructions, but not nearly as well as if I had training courses from the manufacturer
I could go on ... on the install day, I had 5 installers show up, all highly trained with those certifications. 6 hours later, both systems were up and running ... except the smart home controller on my unit. That's where my d-i-y skills took over ... while the installer was reading the 56 page PDF I started playing around on the app on my iPad, got everything connected, then taught him how I did it. [I'm a professional web developer and "help guru". Setting up a smart home controller is easy for me.]
Conclusion: before saying "if you don't d-i-y, you're being ripped off" check all the confounding factors. I would never install my own solar or heat pumps ... I would also never pay anyone to paint my home interiors.
well done! I'm the mechanic for the extended family (except my brother's Tesla), but I know my limits. I don't do automatic transmissions. I tried once and it was a total disaster. Now I leave those black-magic-voodoo-boxes to the professionals. :D
I feel like installers are also keenly aware of all the federal rebates and incentives and determine you can afford the exuberant prices. That's what irks me about these crazy costs. They are just high because of the free money from the government. Just like college costs went up when the government decided to fund college loans.
This exactly. I get so annoyed when people say DYI can save you money. Maybe it can, if you ignore the $1,000 or more on tools I'll have to buy and only use once. Ok Mr. DIY, maybe you have the tools and the skills to do an HVAC install job yourself which took five professionals six hours to do, but I don't 🙂 And no, you can't do it for me because I know you don't have insurance.
6 hours seems like quite alot actuslly but idk you're house... so anyways 5x6x say 15 bucks an hour would be 450 bucks just for the install
Seems like quite a lot
Surely you could've found a cheaper alternative
DIY may not be for you but maybe the nighbors/handyman could handle the task for cheaper
@@kennethjoryeah only a fool will ever waste 1000 bucks on tools
There are professional (overpriced!) Highly durable high quality Tools for professionals
(But gues what you can also rent them) and then there are cheap tools
And unless you'll only ever use basic tools on this 1 tiny job they'll be cheaper then professional labor
Not messing things up is also quite easy...
You ahould be fine so long as you're a responwible adult resd the manual and take basic procautions...
Hey there Matt, my story goes like this. The contractor that installed my system didn't submit the power generation paperwork with Duke Energy. When I discovered this, a great deal of time had passed. Two years approximately, which was my fault. Anyway, once I discovered this, I also learned that the contractor had gone out of business. Long story short, after trying to submit the paperwork myself, I had to locate a local contractor. For a small fee, they used all the information that I had and successfully filed my power generation paperwork. Beginning in February this year, my bill was finally reduced from approximately $150.00 a month to $10.00. March bill, $11.00. At this rate, it should average out to $120.00 a year, or less. Had the installing contractor filed the paperwork upon completion, I would've received those reduced payments sooner, and that is how I got ripped off.
sorry to her that send them a Christmas card hahaha
Great job on breaking down the comments Matt. Your viewing of this from a broader view is what makes this channel so good. No bias.
A huge factor of solar "being a scam" is how these resellers rip you off charging at least 4x on the panels so you're better off buying your own materials. Even the batteries. They're basically adult legos. Tesla powerwall is $13,000 and stores 13.5kWh. You can pickup the cells to make a 14.3 (I'm discharge testing 16.1kWh) for $1,640 +tax&ship
I got an offer to install solar panels for $50k and a loan offer at 7% with $4000 in fees. $54k at 7% the interest is a bit over $3500 per year. I paid $2121 for electricity last year. Electricity is around $0.14 per KWH here in Texas. Under those circumstances it doesn't make sense to do solar ATM. We will focus on paying off debt. We can be debt free in 2-3 years and then revisit the topic.
BTW Nice liquid cooling setup!
I think they quoted you WAY to large of a system if you are paying 41.5 KwH per day. If you figure Texas gets 4-5 hours of peak solar then you only need a 10-15 KwH system. Even with battery back up that shouldnt run your over $35k... That or they are just ripping you off...
Also, dont take a loan to do solar. If you cant front the bill you dont need product...
@@chrismcaulay7805Solar loans are the best manner to increase the ROI of the solar panels. Instead of gping for solar loans, it will be better to go for an HELOC (LAP) as it will have lower interest rate and higher payback period of you want. Also, HELOC will allow for 100 percent financing of the loan. I did the same 5 years back. Been paying my EMI from saving made by installing solar. I save around 2.5 dollars every month after EMI and maintenence expenses. So, using a blanket statement like.loans don't work ain't right.
I agree with the Texas friend. I’ve run the numbers here in Colorado and with my mixed gas and electricity mix I can’t make the system pay off the cost until 20 years. Given everything that could go wrong in that time who knows what added expenses I would have or how many panels or if xcel drops what they pay me for electricity…. Now if you live in a liberal crazy place like the east coast where they are forcing up the cost of electricity it make sense to get our from the liberal caliphate
Here in Brazil I paid 3.6k USD for a solar system generating 7000 kwh per year (guaranteed in contract) or 9000 kwh per year under realistic estimates.
Currently, I consume around 400-500 kwh per month on average and that would cost me 900-1200 usd of electricity bill per year, if I did not have solar.
My system is over-sized, so it gives me the option to install more air conditioners or buy an EV.
Not to mention that in 2~3 years the technology will have advanced AND you might be able to pay cash! Zero interest is always better.
What really shocks me is just how expensive electricity is in Massachusetts
Same in Australia, our government is totally corrupt, do what ever power companies want. They say there is competition .. BS! All providers charge about the same prices ! about 33c/Kwh + $1 day line rental. Luckily I have solar hot water, a fully insulated house and a fire heater. I use little electricity.
thats silly how much
@@RemusKingOfRome is not BS that they are in competition. You just have to understand what they mean when they say it. The "competition" is over your last $ in your wallet. They are masters in linguistic legerdemain!
Sames goes for me here in Connecticut, it's rather pricey, and it's about to go up even further. It's part of what motivated my wife and I to take on this risky solar project, as things seem to be getting worse. Utility's incentives for EV charging just got pulled away too.
Here in Ontario, Canada, I paid the equivalent of 8.5 cents US per kwh on my last bill
In my state, net metering rules makes solar not worth it, UNLESS you go COMPLETELY off grid and disconnect.
You buy power at $0.1-0.12/kw-h.
They buy from you at $0.023/kw-h. You pay grid connection/maintenance fees.
Essentially you need to sell 4x more than you use + 2000 kw-h to cover the fees.
I'm building a new house next year. Ultra energy efficient. I'll put solar on my garage roof and install enough battery capacity to completely disconnect. Put in a really nice backup generator just incase.
Awesome video, you answered the exact question I had on the other one! It’s amazing how much the soft costs impact the overall price. Always cool to understand the why thank you!
One of the comments was correct, " the sun will run out of power "
The thing that they didn't say was, it will take a few hundred million years before that happens
Or more likely billions of years.
@@damagingthebrand7387 roughly 4 billion if the scientists' guesstimates are right heh
Solar intensity is sill increasing. In fact, it will be so intense in 100 Million years that most animal life will start going extinct around that time. And it will still be 5 Billion years before its red giant stage, and it will be like that for a long time after.
Actually, in a few hundred million years the sun will put out MORE power. And kill all life on the planet, but hey.
And that it is not Running out of power faster just because of Solar power.
Customer misinformation and lack of knowledge combined with deceptive sales people definitely are making a much longer (if ever) payoff when compared to finance charges.
That's exactly what happened to me. Deceptive sales took me from a break even good deal (what I was sold) to paying more than I did for grid electric (reality).
Was it my fault I got scammed? Maybe I could've been more knowledgeable or cautious. But the salesman (who's now out of business) definitely preyed on my lack of knowledge to sell an overpriced system. Sad.
Ugh. I hate hearing these kinds of stories. Sorry you got wrapped up with some shady salespeople.
@@UndecidedMF Yes, I have been presented these "deals" as well. Door to door guys trying to get you to trade your current average electric bill for a 25-30 year solar loan. When you look at the financed cost, it is typically double compared to simply paying cash. Also, that solar loan makes it complicated to sell your house, you either have to pay it off yourself, or get the buyer to qualify and assume it.
I avoid a TON of the solar sales and ads, because the first group that tried to sell solar door-to-door ended up essentially showing me a deal where I invest and take on debt, all the money I saved goes to the company, and at the end of a 20 year payoff, they've made bank and I would THEN own 20 year old solar panels.
This had made me prejudiced against most of the "your state will pay for your solar!" ads, and I'm not in a position where doing my own investigation into solar is the most profitable use of my time.
A fundamental truth in life is that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true. That is especially true with solar since most of the companies are in the business of selling leases, not solar. I would go so far as to say that any company that sells a monthly payment as compared to your current electric bill is selling a scam. Solar is a big investment, the company should be able to articulate the lifetime return on investment without ever mentioning your current electric bill.
Really good video !!! I was one of the ones that pointed out the cost in US is staggeringly high, and you are totally right, we should consider ourselves lucky if we live in a country where prices are not so marked up by all the little things, as you experience in your local area. I got solar REALLY cheap, cause I live in a place where it's low cost AND i had a part of it DIY'ed.
Built our own 4400 sqft off grid home couple years ago now. Solar was much cheaper than having power run to the house. We have all the amenities of any other house. Not a big deal, wish more people would do it.
I can't afford solar myself but joined a solar farm, light bill averages 25 a month, what it costs to have it sent to me. I'm happy with that.
My electric bill last month was $1.00. My current bill is -4.00. I pull 30-40kWh on most cloudy days, 14-25kWh on rainy days, and 60-70kW on sunny days (it may be higher once we get to Summer). Solar has been an absolute win. Most people here see a financial loss when they lease, or when they finance with poor loans.
Nice. I'm at 192kwh on sunny days in summer and 94kwh in winter and I can usually get about half those numbers on rainy days. There are a few days a year that are pitch black that I only get like 10kwh.
@@kylewatson5133 We get 8 kWh on the best days.. is 100+ kWh for a business?
so an roi of 10 years+?
@@PazLeBon - about 11 years at winter/spring rates. I’ll know more precisely when I’ve been through a summer that will test things in a different way.
So you thank your neighbors for buying you super expensive power? Hope so.
*Here in Florida, every 10 years your homeowner's insurance company is going to INSIST that a new roof be installed or their coverage will be negated by them refusing to underwrite the roof replacement for any hurricane loss.
*Your mortgage carrier will then be FORCED by their underwriters to gain insurance elsewhere to cover their loan on your property.
*Then charging you for the cost & they're not in the least bit concerned with cost, either.
*With the piercing of the roof by installing the PV cells you've just faulted the moisture barrier & subsequently the warranty of your roof.
*Congratulations!
*You as the proud homeowner get to underwrite your own roof warranty &, further, hope that your morgage holder doesn't find out about your PV install.
*Enjoy your lower electricity bill.
*Plus the fact that you have to reinstall new panels every 10-20 years for the next newer, faster, prettier, shinier more efficient models that will no doubt be coming to your door via some young college kid selling his way through college.
*Why? Because you've got "Stupid Rich" written all over your roof.
*Congratulations!
I agree 100% on what you said about region. I work in the solar industry on the sales side for a national company and pricing is VERY different based on where you live. MOST places the math works out for the consumer, some... not so much
August of 2022, I got my Ford Lightning. The following spring, I installed a solar system myself (5.4kw) to do nothing but charge my truck. The system cost me about $5,500 and with tax incentives it was down to about $4k. I can charge on 240v at 3kw/h. If I added a couple more panels I could get up to 4kw/h. Even cloudy days, up to the point of starting to rain, I can still charge my truck on my 120v system ( roughly 700-800w/h). In the summer, I have been able to add almost 20% to my battery in a day. Winter in Iowa, It drops to about 8%. Usually in the coldest months, I do plugin into 120v house power so I can keep the battery pack warm and charge ( I only have a car port). Now, the one down side, in the morning I can start charging at 120v, then about 10-11 (depending on the time of year), I can go out and start charging my 240v at 2kw/h. Then 30-60 minutes later I can change a setting on my charger to go to the 3kw. So it's very manual. I did buy a different charger that was supposed to handle 240v, but I was having issues. This system works for me since I work from home. Daily, I go to the gym which is 9 miles round trip. On a day that is cloudy, even in winter, I can add over 9 miles of range. I drive around 9 months out of the year for free around town. And even road tripping, The first and last 100% are free. I have people say it is expensive, and it is up front... But would you pay $4k to drive unlimited miles around town for 9+ months of the year? So I pay under $100 a year for driving around town. And under $300 for road tripping each year.
the real question is why you have a lightning and not something cheap and efficient, like a bolt?
First sentence. You got ripped off.
I hadn’t compared Australia to the rest of the world for solar installation prices. It’s nice to hear we are doing something right in Australia.
Australia is blazing a trail when it comes to solar. A lot we can learn from.
That's the thing a US buyer shouldn't be paying 3x what we do for an installation since it's not like we have any price reduction on the systems, none it is made here so all of it is shipped in
and europe, it seems to be only America where they are spending tens of thousands
Another great video and very informative - thank you! Looking at the overview of the house, it would seem like an ideal area to start a self-sustaining food garden as well!
We got a 13Kw solar panel system installed about 18 months ago and overall I am happy with it. It works as advertised and generates about 97% of the energy we use in a year.
We got ripped off on the cost though. In my area the only way to get one is through a vendor that includes installation. The real issue is the power utility won’t even speak with you unless your from one of those companies. So we paid about twice what it would have cost to buy all the components on the open market. The cost was really disappointing because I am a professional electrical engineer and the actual design and wiring for the system isn’t complicated. So I paid someone something I should have done myself. Screw the power company and permitting agency lol.
As someone with solar, I think the idea of short term cost and long term benefit should be mentioned. For me, the cost at the beginning is more expensive BUT with inflation and electric prices increasing, long term the costs of solar are likely to be less.
The prices always going up bit is the only thing I question about the cost benefit going forward.
As the technology improves and keeps getting cheaper and more widespread (utility scale, etc), you would think that at some point it will actually cost you more to get home solar than to stay on the grid.
I'm not suggesting that as a reason to not get solar, just pointing out that I'm not sure the long term trend will remain the same when it comes to cost.
I think Matt has gone through this topic in previous videos on his solar installation, and one of the key points was the upfront cost vs the RoI (Return on Investment) long term. Maybe check out some of his previous videos on the topic.
@@tracy419I think your logic is sound but historically that hasn’t been the case. I think the issue is profits. Companies can gradually increase prices to show shareholders increases revenue every year
@@IL_Bgentyl definitely a good point, I guess I just hope that eventually it actually gets cheap enough that it's something we just get as part of our taxes or something 🙂
With AI/ potential AGI coming in the near future, I can see the technology improving a whole lot faster.
@@tracy419 sadly I think that’s a issue the US will always run into until we start rewarding politicians for doing the hard choices vs working to just get re elected. We 100% could have communities that act as nodes with their own batteries to limit the loss of power increasing efficiency and stability of the whole use power grid. The issue is corporations also have an interest in keeping things inefficient to keep demand high.
We use to hire engineers to improve products. Now we hire engineers to implement reasonable faults/break points.
For us, solar is very much about independence. Our utility is extremely unreliable we can have outages for hours at a time every day for weeks, or entire week long power outages. The piece of mind the system provides is honestly priceless. That being said I am paying more over ten years for our solar system that I would for buying that electricity, and that's without factoring interest.
From what I can tell, it costs way less per KWH when the power is generated in large solar farms where the equipment is kept cleaned, maintained, and updated.
Rooftop systems often have hidden costs and problems... so they could seem scammy, depending on the situation.
I think that's generally true. I would expect labor to be cheaper when solar panels are mounted on the ground, rather than on a roof. And, I would expect transportation costs to be cheaper when when enough solar panels to fill several semi trucks are all being shipped from the same place, to the same place, at the same time. I would also expect electric utilities to generally have access to lower-interest loans to pay for it than the average homeowner.
That said, even if solar farms are cheaper per kWh, rooftop solar is better for the environment, since it's utilizing space that would otherwise go unused, rather than displacing forest or farmland, or impacting ecosystems. To recognize this, there should probably be some form of government subsidy specifically for rooftop solar, which doesn't apply to solar farms, but I'm not aware of any such incentives existing.
I have a small portable solar setup, that "augments" my current garage power usage. The main benefit is the risk of a power outage, as we live in a rural area with outages lasting much longer than the city folk endure. Not sure can put an ROI value on security. Nice video can't wait to see your long term review.
Solar was the best investment that I did, a total of $5000 (after government incentives) and I have not had a electric bill for 11+ years.
The problem is that most people that go solar can’t do it themselves and the crazy prices that company charge for it is outrageous
I installed last year, 23K total (with batteries, ground mount and solark 15k). 30% tax credit factored in we will be at break even in 7 years, but now I dont worry about the crummy grid here.
Agreed. If you can do it yourself, it's absolutely worth the price. I wish I knew that before I got my system professionally installed. When I upgrade, I'm going to do it myself.
thanks
if you are outside the US, you may not even install it on your own, but need a professional electrician to do it for you
@@JarredSutherland This is a huge consideration if you're in a region with unreliable infrastructure. If a terrible storm rolls through, or if the grid has been left to rot, not having to worry about food spoilage or just living in the dark without AC is damned nice.
As someone who installed my own solar, I agree with every point you made. My value proposition kind of blows the bell curve, but it is also on a large motorhome. So it's not really an apple-to-apples comparison.
I have 1,700W of flat-mounted rooftop solar panels, plus an additional 200W deployable panel. (I used to also have a 400W wind turbine, but recently sold it because I didn't use it often enough to justify carrying it around as I traveled.)
With that system, I haven't paid a utility bill in over four years. I didn't keep careful track of what I paid for the system because I purchased and installed it in stages over a couple of years. I'm absolutely certain it was under $10,000 and I think may have been closer to $6,000. When spread out over two years and to end up being fully energy independent, I don't see how anyone could say that's anything other than a good deal.
- being a motorhome, you are likely paying "grid bills" - for transportation (fuel)- by the same token most folk with an Automobile are still also paying to get around. lol...
- just having a laugh, enjoy your good fortune.
Just FYI, when you are talking about hard costs & soft costs, Labor is not considered a soft cost. It a part of the construction numbers of building. When you do pro-forma's for buildings, construction/install labor is not in the soft cost category.
Ordered my System on a Monday, installed on a Friday. Operating by Midday. Sun most days of the year. Welcome to Australia!
seems they're years ahead in solar down under
I got bifacial panels. My cabin in winter with overcast cover and covered with snow still produced 10 amps charges from reflection off the snow from the bottom. Keeps a trickle charge going
Two years ago I paid $41,000 for a 9 KWh system to be installed on the $20,000 50-year metal roof I had just installed, in Belleville Illinois. Of that 41k I paid 18k after Federal and State incentives. the system's monitoring system has me saving about $2300 a year in electricity bills. We also have an EV and save about $5000 a year in not paying for gas, oil changes, plugs, and plug wires, and the VW tech said we might never need to have our brakes done. Contrast with our gasoline engine car I had to pay $60 a week in gas, $100 for an oil change every two to three months, and other maintenance like I just had to replace rear rotors, calipers, and brake pads for $500 and I did it myself. We had decided to keep the one-gas-engine car, but we are now seeing such savings that we are considering getting a second VW EV. Let us round down to we are saving 7k a year and we paid 20k plus 18k for a roof and solar panels, totaling 38k in about 5 years we will be even for our investment and then saving money from there, that is figuring with current prices of electricity, gas, and other car maintenance. I also do our financial investing and the year we had the solar panels the market was not great I averaged a little less than an 8% gain, but 2023 was really great and I averaged a 35% gain. But I know the cost of electricity will go up drastically as part of my investment is with Ameren who is our electricity provider. And they talk about constantly wanting to up the price every quarterly investor meeting, saying we ask every chance we can as the worst the state board can say is no. But if we get it we will see better stock pricing and dividends. Matt is 100% correct. Not every home is situated with a south-facing unbroken roof so solar makes sense, or not every state offers enough incentives to make it right for you. Plus electricity rates vary wildly through the US. Add in the fact that Ameren raised our rates 40% in Jan 2023 and I only knew about it when the neighbors who spewed the same anti-solar talking points started dropping by asking about our solar panels and electricity bills that it had been raised so high. I did find out in the investor meeting about it, but that was months later. My panels are warrantied for 30 years to be producing 92% at the end of the warranty, the roof is warrantied for 50 years. I will be dead before I have to pay for something on either. I figured our savings with a small 3% increase a year to electricity and gasoline pricing over the 25 years after the 5-year break-even point, would be 180k to 190k. Then add in the the so call standard of 8% gain a year investing it and we are looking at 400k to 500k of our money in our pockets while other people pay more than twice their current electric bill or gas fill up.
Ok so your power bill is mostly due to charging an EV at home, my power bill living in the Houston are where my AC runs 10 months out of the year isn't $2k a year total. You must drive a ton too to be paying that much for gas and changing the oil every 2-3 months. Wish I could do solar but I live in a forest where I have almost no south facing sky due to massive pine trees everywhere around my house and garage.
@@Nanan00 Then add in the fact one person did the math and over the 10 years of saving 25% on dynamic electric pricing the person who had a 10k electric bill saved 10k over those 10 years, but yet now needed our help to bail them out. So if I was you I would refrain from trying to jump into this conversation. You have no clue what is going on outside your own bubble. And my bill was below 2k a month before charging the car, sure. But again I cannot afford to live in the red state of Missouri nearer to my job that my rich boss has the building near his mansion so he only has to drive 10 mins. I have to commute from a place I can afford in Illinois to my job. Yes, I drive a bit 5 to 6 days a week. That is why I put $60 a week to fill up my 4-cylinder as that is what is was costing at the time I made the decision.
@@Nanan00 My power bill is mostly due to having everything in the house is electric and everyone in America's electric usage keeps going up as we start trying to cut it down by using LED bulbs. But, damn everything in my house but the furnace is fully electric and even the furnace fan is electric. I really laid it all out as to my monthly savings and yet you still can't comprehend it.
@@Nanan00 and finally if you watched this video and read and comprehended my post you will see we both say solar is not for everyone. We had to cut two trees down, and that was added to the cost of my solar panels. Also, I got 30% Fed and state credit for that cost as well. I still have 5 trees that hurt my production in the winter months when the sun is lower on the horizon, but they are in my neighbors' yards and I cannot force them to cut them down. We just got more panels. And yes your house might be one of the unfortunate ones that is not well suited for solar panels on the roof or worse yet even a ground-mounted array of them. It sounds like you are on of those "since you cannot have it no one should types". I am not saying everyone needs solar, I am saying soon eclectic companies will make it so everyone wish they had solar. I know I am betting on it. All the money I am saving not paying more than $12 a month in electricity even in the hottest August on record with AC on 68, is going to invest in people like you being gouged and forced to pay those high electric bills since you seem to have or want to...... Now that I think of it since Texas voters will not fix their electricity issues and will keep having 10k bills when they need electricity the most, I need to look into buying stock in your electric company. At least those dividends will offset my tax dollars going to bail those Texas voters out who cannot pay their bills.
However realistically, to expect a Solar panel provider to provide 30 years of warranty, even if we are still alive, that is something that will perpetuate the system as a scam. The inverter for 10 years. Further more, while the roof may last 50 years, the screws, wires, wiring harness, aluminium spacers, nuts, bolts, waterproof, may not last more than 10 years before needing some work. It is nice to see 30/10. but in reality, 10 years and needing some maintenance/upgrades should be agreeable. Just remember to save those "saving/profit" for raining days. same for the cars that need no maintenance. eventually, some PCB board will need to be replaced.
Applying Bayesian rules to objectively judge RUclips comments is why you're a winner Mr. Matt Ferrell! Thanks for sneaking that 1 line in. It lets us in on your processes and not just your tools of analysis!
Wow, what a great video: Very balanced and well-researched! It took a lot of work and time to create this video!
Thankyou so much for answering the honest concerns so well.
I had solar panels installed on my roof at the end of 2022 and I live in the Kansas city area. I got a 10kw system that was meant to cover 90% of my total electricity usage. Running the numbers, I will be breaking even on this system at around year 15. This worked for me since my family has decided that this will be our forever home. In the end the numbers aren't exciting but get the benefit of knowing that we're doing SOMETHING about global climate change.
This type of level headed thinking, analysis, and explanation are why I watch this channel. Most people would just respond "Shut up, trolls!" to these types of comments, but he approaches it like an actual adult. Not many of us adults act like adults nowadays 😅
Solar panels only work while the sun is shining, like wind turbines only work when the wind is blowing HARD ENOUGH. Here in South Africa with our daily blackouts, ANYTHING is better. That's why solar is super for us.
I paid $42K for a 9.3Kw system. You got a great deal. In FL, you have to get commercial insurance if you produce more than 10Kw. I hope that changes since having an EV would MANDATE having greater capacity to offset the EV power load.
Wow that’s insane. Here in Australia we just upgraded our system with another 12kw of panels plus a battery. The extra panels plus inverter part of that and permitting costs about $A17k
I don't buy the argument that having an EV requires a greater capacity solar system (assuming the intent is not to power the house and car completely off-grid). I have an EV, no solar, and charge it off the grid for very cheap, by using a time-of-use electricity plan and scheduling the car to charge during the late-night hours when electricity is cheapest.
@@ab-tf5fl Yes that's a good deal. With AGL and they offer 8c/kwh from 12 to 6am which we have our B and B unit charger set up to for guests
Got community solar with no long term commitment and LOVE IT!
Very cool!
I have grid tied solar - 5.25kW system on a ground mount installed in SW Colorado through a non-profit organization Solar Barn Raising who uses "pay it forward" installation with volunteer labor. In four years, last month I paid my first charge for electricity of about $8 for a month of snowy/rainy days. Yes, I pay $35 each month for a grid tie charge, but except that month, zero cost for electricity. My system cost about $9000 total. Our cost of grid electricity here is $0.095 per kWH. Best investment I could have made with my money!!!!!
And the lights all went out in Massachusetts
But was left standing on my own , warm and dry ...... or at least that's how i remember the song we sang at school about solar power
I bought the panels and invertor straight from the factory and DIY 5 kw system (no batteries) cost me 3000$
I am curious how much of your time and others was involved in getting it done however. I decided that for all of the regulatory hoops, time involved for me and anyone who could help, and the potential liability for injury and or missteps in design, that it was worth being able to put the name of a professional installer on the system - but that was with a 60% tax subsidy. (Paying $6500 for the same 5kW.)
@@ksnax about 2 days for 2 people, you should know better than anyone else which side of your house gets more sunlight, you'll need to hire an electrician for couple of hours.
Matt, I wish you were in charge of the major media outlets. Great follow up. It’s so refreshing to see reasoned discussion of ideas and opinions vs. the divisive crap across social media and from many so-called professional journalists. We had solar in California. The math worked out for us. I do agree that it doesn’t work, financially, without subsidies. So there is a long term problem to solve.
Appreciate that ... though I wouldn't want that job.
I first invested in Solar for my home back in April of 2005. I started with a 10Kw system and in 2018, with a roof modification that took about a year, I upgraded my system to an 18Kw system. My total solar electricity production is 241.4 Mwh. So far my solar investment has been about a total net cost of $19,350 and I have saved about $50,000. My main goal for going solar was to reduce my impact on the environment. The economic savings are just a bonus. I live on Long Island in a 3,500 sq. ft. home with a pool. Annually, my solar provides me a little more than the energy my house consumes. That includes heat. My production last year was 18,073 Kwh. My Solar panels face east and west. I am now saving about $4,000 annually.
I am a DIY'er who designed / installed a 10KwH system on my home in southern NH for about $1 per watt back in 2016. I filed all the paperwork, applied for the permits & designed the system (string inverter style) and installed on my roof. Actual out of pocket was $20K but the incentives at the time paid for literally half. Win-win situation at the time. System maintains near 100 percent of what it produced since day one and I'm quite happy with it as it covers `00 percent of my electrical usage.
But ...
Today, those same incentives have reduced somewhat. NH does not give the same rebate incentive and you cannot get "Net Metering 1" anymore, but I would do it again today regardless!
However, I would never hire a 3rd party solar installer. The only persons who gain from this are the installers themselves.
I will never understand the "you got ripped off" DIY complainers. If you asked those DIYers to do it for you and warranty their work, they absolutely wouldn't. It purely boils down to certain people who don't want anyone but themselves fairly paid for labor and expenses.
Sometimes DIY-ers genuinely do not realize the costs for people who don't know how to do it themselves; and sometimes they also forget the ongoing cost of it, which is not immediately apparent, but they definitely feel it when there is an issue and they need to fix it themseleves.
I believe Matt correctly said that for some customers, there is more value in the piece of mind of an installation team and a warranty on the work, rather than the DIY approach.
They also often forget that not all of us are strong, healthy 35 year olds, who have no problems climbing onto their roof with a 64 lb bundle of parts.
Raises hand here ... I'm a 67 year old tech geek Boomer lady in declining health. None of which stops me from wanting the newest gear, all of which stops me from installing it myself.
On the other hand ... I saved over 100% of the cost of high end linen waffle weave towels by making them myself. How many of those big, strong young guys could run a sewing machine?
@@lizcademy4809 I have a ton of respect for people who can sew well. My mother taught me how decades ago, but I could never get my brain to work with the geometry of cloth that has to fold and wrap around things after it's sewn.
There are numerous problems with your analysis.
I am a DIYer. And there are a lot of things I have done at my home that I never would have paid someone else to do. Because I don't have the money to pay someone else to do it. It is not because I think my time is worth more than others. Quite the opposite. Why I DIY:
(1) When I have the time to work on home projects, my time costs me no hard currency.
(2) And, I get the project done the way I want it to be done.
When I have enough money, and I need help, I prefer paying above basic wages because I value people who do quality work.
Would I do work for my neighbor? I may sometimes. I would happily work with them on projects.
Would I warranty my work? Absolutely not!
That work is not my profession. I don't expect to get paid professional rates for working with them, or even any compensation at all.
My analysis of your statements:
You have a burr under your saddle about laborers getting unfairly paid. You may very well have a point in that. But you are casting unsupportable disparaging remarks on myself and other DIYers for no discernable reason. You may be correct in your analysis about the people you know. But it does not apply to DIYers that I know.
@@scottharwood8839 Are you going around telling people they "got ripped off" for paying professionals to do something, or did you misread my comment?
I got ripped off because my salesman claimed that I'd get $15K back in taxes. I failed to talk to a tax professional before moving forward (due to the fact that all my paperwork from the solar company stated the discounted rate). I got zero back. So my system ended up being $15k more than I expected. The math at that price doesn't work at all. I complained but apparently I didn't read the fine print, so they said they couldn't change anything. Also, that company is out of business now. Thankfully the manufacturer is still in business and continuing the service the system.
Is it my fault I got scammed? I suppose. But the paperwork and the salesman presented the information in a dishonest manner. This was their common practice, which is likely why they are out of business.
Is it your fault? Why does our government allow so many dishonest sales practices? It seems wrong to me. It seems very wrong, but we do keep reelecting these crooks.
I was quoted 40k for a 6kw(15 panels) installation, no battery. They also claimed I would get a similar tax credit like you to help offset that price. There's a 5k charge built in just to get the loan. But then I did a DIY cost comparison at 7k. Incredible how much these guys overcharge. It's a shame you got taken.
Btw they close their business often only to reopen with a new name to avoid dealing with warranties and other claims.
You should be more accountable, with so much money on the line I would definitely have doubled and tripled checked if I was going to get that amount of money back on my taxes
It’s because they give a tax credit not a tax rebate. You save money by lowering your tax burden.
Sorry to hear you got a bad deal. A lot of installers are less than credible.
I find it hard finding a company that isn't doing a fast sell wishy washy pitch that is all scam once you dig into the contract.
@Matt, I had a leased grid connected Solar system from Solar City. There was no out of pocket expense. Lease included panels, hw, licenses, and install. The overall power expenses for power including the lease was cut in half from the non-solar system. It was a great deal. I did not have any issue selling the home later on.
Our motivation for having solar was not about the money but having another backup power source for power outages which is not grid tied or relied upon fuels supplied by others. I am a DIYer and so far, everything is working great has been for three+ years. It has easily cut our utility cost by a 3rd and have more to install in the near future. Will we recover the cost doubt it, does anyone ever recover the cost for anything like vehicles, appliances, phones, any other equipment that makes life easier NO, but having another backup and the peace of mind is well worth it of course till it breaks down.
Stay Safe & Good Luck
I've always been surprised more people who tout self-sufficiency haven't had this outlook. I've been in multiple places in my life that have had fuel shortages, including Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina and Rita with extended outages and cars running out of fuel in line for gas that wasn't there. You're relying on a vast and complicated infrastructure for every drop of fossil fuels. Maybe I can't take a 2000 mile road trip without a bit of extra effort, but I can keep the lights on and my vehicle charged independent of the grid.
SE Florida solar issue: Insurance companies still won't cover your home if you install solar panels on the roof. Here, the roof is an integral part of the hurricane damage envelope protecting the house. Maybe in time. If I had the land, I would install freestanding panels. Still looking for whole house battery backup system installed outside. So far only available battery backup systems also require a solar system.
Similar issues in coastal Texas. And even in the non-coastal areas, where traditional shingle roofing may need to be repaired or completely replaced in 20-25 years, the cost of removing the solar to do it and reinstall it becomes horrendously expensive.
Who do you have for insurance? Some of my neighbors in coastal Florida have solar (pv and water) and they are covered.
You can use EcoFlow to backup your house to batteries. They have propane, gas, and electric (all-in-one) battery systems. No solar needed. I'm planning on getting some in the future.
@jerrycomo2736 been totally transparent. I work with a Solar Company out here in Florida and we work with multiple insurance to help any person that this may happen. In my experience is been rare but I know it happens.
I agree, in se florida it is a good old boy club, especially with permitting. I have heard of people who installed their own system, and had to wait for permits a very long time. Even with us it was a good 6 months, and we used a contractor. Their hands were tied I think, ( not much they could do but wait). I suspect if the inspectors get kickbacks, things move much faster, ( likely not true). It’s more likely they got one guy, and he has to hundreds of applications per week.
However it is a very strange situation here. Our subdivision is pretty affluent with around 1000 homes, we installed our solar system 3 yrs ago, and our home is net zero now, ( meaning our previous electric bills from 2013 to 2019 averaged around $300 per month, (I added up all the payments from our records and averaged out what our actual cost was, ( prior to getting solar). Before 2020 we never even opened up any electric bills, everything was setup on autopay, ( yea I know pretty dumb). Since installing the net metered solar system our electric bills average around $30-$40 dollars a month, ( mostly taxes and fees). After all the rebates our whole system, ( professionally installed), was around $20,000 dollars.
What I simply can’t fathom or understand is there are only 3 homes in our entire subdivision with panels on the roof, ( out of a thousand homes). SE Florida is likely one of the sunniest places in the us. Solar sales people come to our door several times a week, and we get tons of mail and email promotions, many saying you can install solar for free, at no cost to us. We just laugh when they come to our door, and I say did you look at our roof while you were walking up to our house.
My question is why is nobody having solar installed around here, ( likely one of the most affluent and desirable areas for solar in the country).
I always love your well thought out videos and trying to stay on an even keel.
Also, I just realized that your voice reminds me of Casey Kasem. You could always have a backup job as a radio personality 😂
I had my 5.8KW system installed in 2016. I got break even in less than two years because of my two EVs. However, in the past two years, Southern California Edision reduced the power buy back price from 36 cents to 9 cents (at one point of time, it was down to 3 cents). Now, I own SCE $2,000+ annually. I am making free energy for SCE. I need a battery system for my electricity production. I want to get myself totally off the grid. Utility companies are evil.
Hahaha those negative folks got ripped off from positive energy and happiness in life.
lol
Shows how many blockheads are out there. How can people be that dense?
Imagine thinking the sun will stop producing light if you use solar panels.
Plants do the same thing with photosynthesis.
Mind you I saw a video the other day of 3 American high school leavers who were asked to name 3 other countries in the world other than the USA. The answers were Canada, New Mexico and they couldn’t think of anything else. 1 out of 3. Now that is not a good look for the American youth of today.
no, they just hate dimwit globalists who cant fathom Second Law of Thermodynamics and Ohm's Law.
You know, the regular 90% of population liberal arts "degree" holder 😂
Can't you guys in the comments just take what someone said and think about it without getting mad? Matt didn't really disagreed with them, but just explained how you always need a personal context. But for some reason people try to clown on them for trying to make some points...
@@piotrmorag2597 well in most cases these days, the detractors base their "experience" on rumours, they've NEVER had hands on experience....
I expect part of the reason the costs of things down in Australia is to offset the the constant fear of attack from all the massive venomous creepy crawlies they have! 😅
I can guarantee you that you guys fear them more than we do....😁
- nah, it just lets us run the AC all summer long for free..
To be a counter voice to the negatives: I went solar about a year ago mostly thanks to this channel, and have been very happy so far! Massive electricity savings and just overall quite happy.
Additionally my dad quickly went solar after me. And he's got 30+ years experience in contracts and supply chain. He knows a scam or even just a bad deal when he sees it and he still went solar and is quite happy.
Another thing to note. In my area, you were not eligible for any incentives, if you did the install yourself. It had to be done by a qualified installer.
I installed a solar power system on my home in Calgary, Alberta, Canada just under three years ago. It is grid connected, no battery. The one comment I wanted to add that was not included in your video is the increase in cost of grid power over time. Average rates in our area have increased significantly over the three years I have had my system installed.
In short, no, I don’t feel ripped off, I feel I have received an added bonus over all the other benefits you’ve listed.
Pretty much the only way the Government can get people like you to buy solar, make power more expensive for everyone else, and have them subsidize your installation.
Perth WA, 12.3kW PV (28x 440w N-type Bi-facial panels), 5kW Hybrid inverter, 18kWh battery, EV Charger, fully installed 2 weeks from signing the proposal. AU$25k. One month in and already generated 1.2MWh, of that self use of only 480kWh. Only use 50%-60% of the battery overnight, tops up in 4 hours the next day, 5-6 hours when overcast (hardly ever).
Just curious. Unless you are able to sell / use that extra energy, isn't that wasteful? I get it if you are producing over 20-30% of your daily needs to account for cloudy days, but we are talking 60% overproduction here.
@@alihms Yep, excess is sent straight back to the grid or my company supplied EV when it needs it.
@@alihmseven if you live off grid, and can't sell your power back, sometimes the price is worth it depending on fees and cost. Even if it's "wasted". I am at this exact moment currently "wasting" 60% of my solar panels because I have nowhere to shed the extra load or feed back to the grid. However my break even point on panels and batteries in
Hi Matt, Adam from Australia here. You're right we are lucky! but it's not just the soft costs of solar, the panels and install are relatively cheap. I paid about usd$8k for a 10Kw system!
I haven't paid an electric bill for 13 years. Mine paid for itself about 5-6 years ago. The scammers are the ones who finance it when you could get lower interest with tax deductable heloc.
People really want to talk about what's a bad investment? Clothes, Cars, Phones, and Electronics in general. You don't need the newest stuff.
Those are not investments though, no one even calls them such...
Point 1, it doesn't matter how much power can generate during a cloudy day.
The ONLY thing that matters is if you can get to ROI IF your major concern is a COMPLETE return on the investment. People that have electric bills of $300 USD/mo on avg, well, this is pretty easy to get ROI even in the north because you get more sunlight in the summer with longer days so even though the winter will provide less energy that's not really the point. IF your goal is to be completely free of a power grid, solar panels don't work well unless you live closer to the tropics and then it becomes pretty easy because you can run a generator when big storms are coming through. There may be SOME places in the tropics where it's overcast too much, but that's going to be rare.
If the goal is to be net zero, that's pretty hard living in the US. The infrastructure isn't set up to be net zero at least for residential living is big towns or cities. But, getting close to net zero is much better than most people so there's that whole thing.
I honestly think, for most people, simply reducing the number of plane flights is going to matter more in terms of one's individual carbon footprint than home solar ever would. Everybody focuses on fancy tech to reduce climate impact, but forgets about the simple stuff.
I live in the Netherlands and we've just had our panels installed couple of months back. We have a very small south-facing roof, so it is only four panels, generating 1.5kWh at max.
There is no storage (yet), so our "solar array" is connected to the grid and we are billed for what we've consumed minus what was generated.
The full cost of the setup including installation was 3400 EUR. Our electricity provider (who did not have any part in installation) estimates that we would be paying at least 500 EUR less annually.
The red tape amount is basically zero. There were no permit required for installation because I do not live in a "protected cityscape" plus the panels are not visible from the street.
As an owner of installation, I had to register my setup at some grid operators' registry, but it is quite easy as it is and my installer filled in most of the details anyway.
P.S.: our electricity consumption is very small - around 5 kWh per day as our heating is non-electric (yet) and we do not have an AC
Matt, I have always liked how you approach analysis - answers are only easy when the underlying nuance is ignored or glossed over. Your analysis doesn't shy away from complexity, making it far more useful for those of us who don't need and don't want dumbed down info.
Hi, Aussie solar installer here. I think one of the largest drivers of the price disparity between US and Oz is the effect of Chinese overproduction of panels. Here we have cheap Chinese manufactured panels flooding the market and driving the price down. It's gotten to the extent that a number of good manufacturers have pulled out of the country because they can no longer compete. The US however have tariffs on panels not produced in North America so y'all don't have the intense competition that has come from the Chinese overproduction of panels. Panel prices here have dropped about 30% in the past 12 months. While it's a damn shame to lose these higher quality manufacturers one can hardly complain about solar power getting even cheaper. Yet we still have people here pushing for nuclear. Wild times.
The tariff is only on Chinese produced panels, not panels that come from other Asian countries
Is it overproduction if the Chinese companies are still making money? I thought over production was when there are more products on the market than people wanting to buy them and the price crashes down lower than the production cost. If Chinese companies are making lots of panels at crazy cheap prices but is selling them all and still making money that sounds like capitalism working as intended. You can argue whether capitalism is good or not. But that’s a different issue
With all the government incentives, it's the people that do not have solar that are getting ripped off.
I live in south east Louisiana and the are few incentives. Plus I live in hurricane territory
Location location location indeed! Does the 17.2Wp/$55k setup
Include the battery storage? Love your vids, amazed by how different the regulations can be around the world! Here in The Netherlands I’m allowed to do a whole install of solar incl. battery DIY without any permits.
Great video. In my area I have noticed that value changes over time as well. People who hopped on the solar bandwagon years ago got great rebates and perks. Now it is much harder to get “a good deal”, in part because permitting and regulations are much stricter.
I am really looking forward to update on "what works and what not". So far, in my installation, I know that the battery will never pay off (10% difference between night and day will not cover the cost in 30 years...), but the solar was a non-brainer. Can't wait for update from your house.
You're that battery will never pay off but in my case, power outage resistance is priceless. I plan to expand my 10 kWh to 20kWh even if financially is pure wasting of money
👍 I'm looking forward to sharing the data
never say never. More and more places big swings in powercost get more and more normal, to make people spread out use more.
If it happens where you are in the future, suddenly it will help you a lot.
But... besides that. You don't make power when it is dark, if you have saved up power during the day, you can then use at night time, and that is the point of a battery combined with solar, then every kwh you pull out of the battery, is a kwh saved. and you should count that towards the solar panels, because they are not doing anything at that point, and if the battery wasn't there, the extra power would just have been wasted (or sold, and you are luck if you live somewhere where they still offer 1:1, most places they buy your power cheap, and sell it back expensive. If you gave 1:1, the battery makes a lot less sense, other than a nice to have for a blackout.
"Did I get ripped off?"... "welcome to undecided"
I believe this basically sums up everything in the video.
Nice explanation, thank you for addressing the matter. Looking forward for your next updates on your solar!
Great points to consider when looking at Solar you brought up many things that I would not have thought of previously.
I wonder what effect the shade from the adjoining trees make to your system and if you have made any effort to trim them down a bit to improve your power generation
I'm in Queensland, paid $2900 for 6.6kw system in August 2021. My quarterly bill is roughly $300. Next quarter I will have broken even (as the previous provider dropped their feed in rate) Over summer my house hold used 510Kw and generated 2110Kw and I currently have $400 dollars in credits with the energy provider. From here on in its all savings and its nice not having another bill sneak up on me.
Our hot water is gas so a big usage of power is taken out which helps and gas being cheap its not a big deal.
The so called scams here are the pay over time installers, the interest and extra fees make it cost far more in the long run.
I have solar and i’m in Florida. The main issue with solar here is FPL lobbied the state to make net metering liabilities fall on the home owner so it’s near impossible to get insurance at least at competitive rates. When I first bought my house 1 year of insurance was $700, next year $800, I got solar, was dropped and and the cheapest I could get was 2500 the next year, then we had the huge insurance issues and it cost me 5600 the year after. Having solar in Florida has made it very hard to work with insurance in Florida for sure. Other issues FPL is trying to do to push home owners away from solar is they claimed that home owners with solar are costing them too much so they either have to raise rates for everyone or charge a flat $30/month rate for any month I over generate (the second option won making it not as rewarding to have solar) right now I tell everyone that Florida is not the state to have solar.
Agree. My insurance company is Frontline and they forbid net metering and I had to sign an affidavit saying I’m not doing it and had to install batteries and set the system to no grid export. This costs more but allows me to operate and maintain insurance.
It's funny how in a responsible governed state, like Florida, that doesn't want the burden of Solar panels on people's homes to be paid for by normal power rate payers, Solar doesn't make much financial sense anymore. Huh, funny.
Hats off to you for reading the comments and taking the time to respond to some of the themes. Really appreciate that. I think your vids are awesome and they really provide a lot of great information for people who are considering purchasing a product or service you are reviewing. With solar, with most alternative technologies, there are a lot of reasons people choose to become early adopters outside of simple finance. For me, I've considered solar because I like the idea of being self sufficient, I like the idea of being off-grid for at least some of the time, and I like the idea of clean energy. If the cost is close to what I'm paying now then I would consider it. Thanks Matt for the great content!
Thanks for this great explanation. Location is everything. Our main motivation to get solar was to be energy independent. While everyone can look forward to the US getting the prices down, but we weren't interested in waiting till that happens. We've had it (14 kw Tesla system) for several years now, with 3 batteries and eventually got an electric car. Very happy with the process and the results. Our electric bill is $14 per month.
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing.
its amazing how few peoples primary motivator is doing their bit for the future generations and leaving a habitable planet. I guess the most important thing is solar keeps getting installed.
Exactly. Even if my solar panels were a net loss compared to the grid I would still have installed them. Hypothetically say I lived far north in a place where solar panels had negative lifetime ROI, on the order of -$5000 over 20 years, or $20/mo. Am I willing to pay $20/mo to reduce my carbon emissions and bolster the renewable mix of the grid when exporting? Sure, of course I am.
Another "small" factor depends on local regulations. In my country, the Netherlands, the power companies are starting to charge solar panel owners for the ability to send power into the grid. You get punished for grid feed-in. When there's money on the table, companies and governments will do whatever they can to grab it. They'll happily change the rules halfway down the game to skim your gain.
Agree with the independence argument. My next home will have a home battery system so I can store and use all power I use, and also survive the inevitable blackouts that are coming due to the grid being ruined with ideological, flakey power sources.
Bro, love the content and delivery( u r very watchable I think it’s ur sincerity to help ppl). Australian here, just signed up for two 13.2kwpv/10kw inverter systems grand total of $9,899. AU for the both systems. 60 x 440w N-type half cut panels with 25year like for like product warranty and 10 year warranty on the inverters. I currently have 5kwpv/5kw inverter in place which produced 22kw today middle of autumn/fall. Think it works out to AU$0.37c per watt including installation, mounting hardware, cabling/conduit, electrical isolators, meter board work + export control device and all the paperwork. I will admit the Government payed the company AU$8925.00. Yay Australia 🇦🇺
I installed my solar myself to all the required standards with quality equipment, and I hired an electrician to do the work that I legally couldn't do myself. I reckon it ended up costing me no less than if I had an installer do all of it. But I learnt a lot in the process, and I ended up with exactly the system I wanted.
Now I am commissioning grid scale solar farms as part of my job, so the stuff I learnt on my own system ended up being useful
Matt you are being too good of a guy here. Some people just don’t want to be convinced. Funny enough - some of these people may just be the most vocal about strong property rights but at the same time get triggered when you actually do with your money what you want (like buying solar, EVs).
Everyone that knows just the slightest thing about your channel is that you are always considerate and never state things in extremes like “xyz is nothing but great”. Heck, it is even in your channel name “Undecided”.
Thanks for the video anyways and keep up the good work!
Or worse are the roll coal types...wtf is wrong with those ppl?
You got ripped off because I'm an idiot.
Thanks for the video and your clear breakdown. I had solar installed a couple years ago and don't regret it. You are absolutely correct that it all comes down to personal fit and choice. My experience included wide swings in quoted pricing from different vendors. Most did not make financial sense over the long term. In the end I found a reputable company to do my install where the numbers made sense. From the moment my system got turned on, I'm running cash positive. Meaning that the monthly cost of paying back in loan (at 0%APR) is less than the cost of buying power from the grid had I not pulled the trigger. At the time of installation my average monthly electric bill was $254. The monthly loan payment is $176, and that monthly cost will end when the loan in paid off. Take into account that electric rates have since gone up, and will continue to do so, it was the right decision for me. Also, the yearly check for $500+ every year at true-up for the excess power sold back to the grid helps even more. I intentionally purchased a system that generates a bit more than we consume on purpose. #1 - So that our home is EV ready should we decide to go that route. #2 - To have that NEM payback cushion to (maybe) offset maintenance costs for the system down the line. Otherwise, those yearly checks are just gravy.
Side effect that I did not realize when running the numbers. The electrical load for cooling my home went down, measurably. The panels on the roof provide a significant shade effect, reducing the thermal transfer from the roof surfaces into the attic during the summer. My attic temperature is now lower on average, so the AC does not have to work as hard, or as long to keep the house cool.
The electricity produced on an overcast day was what surprised me the most when I started charging my car at work with their solar panels on the roof. It produces somewhere around 200kWh on clear days but still enough to charge two cars at 11kW in parallel on overcast days.