Loving these videos, but I would really encourage you to end with a "key take aways" segment in each video, evaluating everything you saw and comparing/contrasting to other existing or potential solutions, and maybe giving a "grade" to the engineering.
With Munro now in the public space we all get to see the engineering differences between automotive brands like never before. Thanks to team at Munro for bringing us along👍
Or maybe the engineers were like "yeah the carbon top will have a production cost of $3,890 and lets see stamped steel will be.... $177 what do you guys want to do for this part nobody will see?"
It's good to see that Munro staff now acknowledge that this is a body-on-frame vehicle, in contrast to the strange declaration in an earlier Munro Live video ("Rivian R1T Electric Truck | Hoist Review", also featuring Ben) that it was a unibody.
Would have liked to see the full removal, as a mechanic eventually we'll have to work on all E.V's so would have been interesting to see the removal process
Removing any modern EV battery: remove shield, unplug cables, disconnect hoses, support pack with jack, remove a few bolts, lower... The puzzling thing it that Ben said that the top cover was bolted to the body, which makes no sense, so it would have been good to see how that worked.
Yeah it will be a problem. Their recent teardown of the Austin Model Y shows that Tesla has also gone to a steel cover for their structural 4680 pack but they powder coated the entire thing.
Will there be also a tear down on the thermal management of the battery ? Is it internally cooled? If the battery moduls are stacked in to two levels how are the modules be cooled .? Thx for that great work, every video is a technical journey! Love it ❤️
They would also have to account for air expansion and contraction with temperature. It looks like the vents can serve as rubber diaphragms to accommodate the change in air volume (maybe), but there will be a positive pressure when hot and negative pressure when cold. Any clip-in components need to seal against the pressure differentials, so yeah - I can appreciate the use of fasteners to hold any covers in place.
Also easily possible with clip-in. If there is a higher water pressure, it can only come from outside (flooding), so the water itself exerts additional pressure (self-sealing effect). And the seals don't have to be made of hard rubber, so even smaller forces are enough to seal it and therefore possible by simple manual assembly.
7:44 For consistency of tests you should have also burnt the Rivian foam inside the building as well. Also both pieces should have been cut to the same shape; the Rivian foam was a ball against concrete and the Tesla foam was an airborne shard. Don't get me wrong, interesting results but testing methodology should be the same. Thanks for the great insight as usual! :)
Only in very few cases will it make a difference whether the material is combustible or self-extinguishing. Because in most cases there is not enough oxygen in the housing and the foam ALWAYS extinguishes itself. But the cause of the fire in the pack is more likely the cell and it doesn't matter whether the foam goes out after 2 seconds or after 10 seconds, the only important thing is that both materials are not fire accelerators.
Since this is not the Max pack that Rivian offers, I'm curious as where the additional cells will go? If there's no more room, I have to assume they would use different batteries with a higher volumetric energy density.
They are already using cells with the highest volumetric energy density (Li-ion 21700) so they will probably make the battery pack larger (deeper) or else add a second smaller pack, perhaps where the bed storage container is located.
If you have seen the rolling chassis of R1T you will see there's a wide gap between the battery pack and the rear subframe. I guess that's where the extra batteries go.
The 180 kWh battery apparently has 12 modules instead of 9, with the module sizes (but not the internal configuration) being the same as the 135 kWh battery.
Wouldn't the aluminum cross members also be helpful in moving heat where as a composite would be an insulator? This would also be true with any other part like that top cover. As well as a steel cover is heavier but would probably help in suppressing/containing a fire.
For sure. Composites don’t handle high heat well at all, not to mention the fact that they can be shockingly expensive. I don’t agree with a lot of the judgements on composite use here. Edit: That’s not to say I think these guys did a bad job! I enjoyed the video and I think it was really well done. But engineering decisions just never happen in a vacuum, so it’s hard for anyone to say with certainty that a decision is good or bad. Other than the Rivian designers, of course.
Good stuff guys. Please in future explain terminology and reasons why a little more, it would help make it clearer. For example, I was able to lookup why Mica is used in EV batteries and what RTV is and its properties, but it would be even better if you briefly explained in the videos. Thanks again, enjoyed it.
You had to look up RTV? I believe they assume the viewers know a little about battery packs since they are watching a video on them. I don't think they have the time to explain every little thing. Whatever your not familiar with, look it up on Google. No offense meant.
It isn’t a common term in my country, at least I haven’t heard it before. I did look them up, as I said. It would make it easier, as I said. No offence taken.
@@tsedge99 Good point - local terminology may vary. Assume that Munro staff are using North American terminology. I think a brief on-screen caption could be used to define each term, without interrupting or extending the verbal description.
Some self extinguishing additives can be very effective. U.K. building codes require roof tile battens to be fire retardant. Put some sticks into a burning wood stove and the fire will die.
The high number of threaded fasteners on the steel cover adds rigidity to the battery case. I'm sure that's the reason engineers designed it that way, self tapping screws although cheaper and faster to assemble are less sturdy less reliable and less serviceable. The RTV sealing of the seams is precautionary to prevent water ingress, if you were only to rely on welds it would have to be pressure tested for integrity. It's difficult to decide which is more cost effective and easier to build between the two alternatives but I would guess the RTV being cheaper and quicker. It's interesting that Rivian uses a superior foam product that's self extinguishing, after all we've been told over and over again that Tesla is ten year ahead of the competition.
99% of the decisions that seem "less optimal" are because startups don't have the time or resources to make optimal decisions. Done and done fast are more important than optimal.
It would be interesting to see what material each foam is made from and how it is produced. Tesla may have gone with a less toxic and low VOC foam product to keep their production impact calculation low. I don't know enough about foam like this to know if the Rivian foam requires some flame retardant additive that might have more emissions that Tesla decided wasn't worth it if they could manage thermal runaway in some other way.
I see updates from people in the industry of recycling battery packs that makes me very happy to see the batteries becoming fully potted now- I know it makes it near-impossible to replace individual cells once done so, but they function like a heat sink for the pack and provide vibration resistance on an individual cell basis, obviously coupled with their fire resistance. I think if that would be coupled with Lucid's cooling of the bottom negative cathode of the cells, that it would be the best" way to make a cylinder-cell EV battery pack.
No one would seriously try to replace individual cells on a commercial basis in any EV battery design. Potting with foam does not form a useful heat sink. Yes, Rivian is end-cooling the cells, and showed that long ago, probably before Lucid produced anything.
how do these flame retardant foams work in low oxygen environments? I can't imagine that inside the pack there's much oxygen to go around. And obviously these foams are not carrying an oxidizer themselves, right? Obviously flame = bad, but I'd guess that there's more that goes into it in actual use? Would love a thorough explanation on how that works
More for preventing or slowing down cell to cell thermal propagation. The foam has low thermal conductivity. Will say too cells in an environment without oxygen, i.e. only nitrogen, will still catch on fire/vent if they get hot enough since the cathode has an oxidizer in it. Not 100% good analogy but same way how rockets can function in space.
Thank you! I crash lithium batteries everyday in my RC hobby, in a runaway thermal event……that small layer of foam in both the Rivian and Tesla will be insignificant fire retardant protection, especially as they both burn. Lithium needs no help propagating fire😎 I see that foam more as external thermal protection and packaging NVH.
I would like to see the battery pack to be more serviceable so when one pack dies you don’t have replace the whole battery pack or when you want to upgrade some of the packs
regarding the point "upgrade some of the packs": i think you mean modules, not packs (since there is just one Pack with multiple modules) - and that is physically not possible. you either upgrade the whole pack, or you dont. If you just upgrade a few Modules you will gain nothing, since the total Capacity is limited by the worst Module. Even worse: you would probably increase the wear possibly quite dramatically on that Module and then have to replace it anyway.
Foam was very interesting. Was Tesla blue foam choice perhaps driven by another attribute even though self-extinguishing may have been available and seems a better choice?
great presentation. I would have liked to see more on thermal management, though the tear-down hasn't gotten that far. I really liked the shoulder screws/bolts for mounting plastic connector housing. I don't think snap fittings are good for housings needing to seal against water intrusion.
I love all of these videos. Like the content is obviously nowhere else and wholly awesome. I do feel like some of the criticisms are a bit unfair, like the asymmetry in the battery case. We don't know what resources the design engineers are working with. It's not like simplifying that aspect will free up resources to work on the Ocean Coast interior challenges, right? Or while comparing and contrasting the threading vs. OEMs, perhaps you could more easily apply brute force skilled labor temporarily here with no problem while you wait for the proper machines to get online in the factories for the next iteration, right? I just feel like bottom line when we look at the R1T, it's a well built, efficiently manufactured machine for a first consumer car. Analogies are hard because obviously the trail has already been blazed but this is light years ahead in every category than the Tesla Roadster or even the first Model S. Including, importantly, demand. My impression of Rivian's manufacturing is they're getting it right and everything that's being pointed to are not any kind of red flag. Challenges will be exactly what the CEO said they will be, supply. They'll figure out how to thread things efficiently on their own terms in extremely short order.
So the pack components (contactors, battery managers, etc.) that might fail and have to be replaced can't be without taking the cover off? That's a lot of cost that might require the whole pack full of good cells to be swapped out. Does Rivian have any economical way of swapping in guaranteed refurbished packs that would not saddle the customer with a heart-stopping repair?
Totally agree. Just ask the engineers at ford why they have stopped selling the mach e. For that exact reason it will be very costly to fix. Its like ford putting the water pump inside the motor. Do they never learn!!
Having threaded components welded to the battery cover looks like trouble to me. Suppose during the life of the car someone has to unscrew whatever was attached to the cover and while doing that, or even while reassembling things, the threads strip out? How does the mechanic recover from that? Replace with great big self tappers like some kind of Chinese lawn furniture? ick!
The comparison between the Rivian rubbery top cover of the modules, to the Tesla foam that is applied in between the cells is not an apples to apples comparison. Lets see if that material in the Rivian is applied in the same manner as in the Tesla packs. I was really disappointed in the excessive amounts of the black rtv all over the welds around the pack. That just leads me to believe that they don't have faith in the welds being air tight. As someone who worked on Model S packs for 5 years I can really see lots of similarities with this pack. From the center spine and module set up to the extra module turned sideways in the front of the pack. Over all a decent looking battery. My only concern would be the gaps where the micas don't completely cover, but really a minor gripe.
Interesting comparing this to a 2012 Nissan Leaf traction battery pack I disassembled. There are pros and cons for engineering in both. So much simpler dealing with the two cell battery modules in the Leaf. But chalk and cheese to manufacture cells and batteries.
From what was shown, replacement of a module or cells appears not to be a consideration. The engineering here is really leaning towards 'what can we do to make this thing strong and durable in the event of an incident'. I think overall, Rivian has over-engineered a lot of this vehicle and there is a lot of room for 'savings'. That said, it's the first production model. I hope for thier bottom line, they can get some egineering cost analysis done (like this) so they can get profitable on these. There's more vehicle here than what they are being sold for. That's a losing proposition in the short term. Long term they need to be able to make a profit or it won't matter.
@@richpalmisano1740 no one replaces cells within a failed module. We will presumably see module replacement in the next video - there's no indication in this video of how difficult that will be.
Hey team. I watched all Tesla videos back to back but nowadays you’re going in much more technical depth than I can consume. This is fine, but could you try doing a short summary of the highlights at the end? Would help the techno-curious like myself 😊
Informative, especially the comparisons. Am I correct to assume that the "power conversion system" is in one of those triangular corners on the front of the skateboard?
It looks like that casting at the back of the pack is also different from the first two. So they have three different castings that probably could have all been the same. Rivian builds a beautiful truck, but they def need some cost analysis. It certainly seems like that could save a ton of money all over the vehicle without losing anything in quality.
@@philipparana9225 Yes, no doubt of that. But getting to production doesnt make them successful. Plently of long shuttered automotive companies made it to production. Now they have to figure out how to turn a profit. And judging by the price rise announcement earlier, they cant do that with this build as it stands.
Casting? the small housings for connections are castings. The front and back are extrusions which are bent to shape; Ben says front and rear are the same extrusion so I'll believe that - they're just bent differently.
How do the fire resistant treatments last? We have seen in aircraft some of these treatments have been designed to pass the initial testing but become highly flammable with time!
@@tukid666 Hi, thanks for your reply. I am not an expert but plastics are a rabbit hole of interesting complexity. From the little research I have seen PU's do have some fire resistance but still have fire problems including giving off cyanide at higher temps.
There are paints (used inside the box postal pickup boxes, etc.) that are inherently self extinguishing. They char, carbonize and stop burning. No time limit on that, so presumably the same thing can be done with plastic.
In terms of maintenance: when the battery pack needs replacement, will have to replace the whole battery module, or will you be able to replace an individual battery module?
Maybe it's just me, but the battery pack doesn't look like it fit anymore cells, so how would they package the max pack, would they have to sacrifice the gear tunnel to pack in more cells? or raise the floor of the truck to pack more?
Remember, this vehicle is designed to go off road and go into ~3 feet of water. That may be a reason for the extra RTV and more robust battery vents. Vents need to ONLY let air in and out. No water.
I understand cost cutting measures, and that a steel cover is highly likely to be lifetime, but how is this packaged in the skateboard? Can water get to this cover in normal northeast winter driving? Had the same concern with the wheel well vents found in the frunk removal video. A neat idea at first glance but might shorten the lifespan of the vehicle in the northeast. Great video as usual!
That blue Tesla foam looked like silicone to me. PU gives off a thick black smoke. Silicone smoke tends to be thinner and white, as you see from the blue foam. BTW that white smoke is mainly fine silicon dioxide particles which are very bad for your lungs (silicosis risk).
@@vidznstuff1 Polystyrene burns with a thick black smoke. The smoke from that blue foam was white. Silicone rubber is one of the few plastics/rubbers that burn with that white smoke.
Hello Sandy, I love your videos. I learned so much. I have a question, I had the opportunity of looking at the Rivian Battery Enclosure and noticed that the tray is made from an aluminum sheet with a variety of indentations. Would you know what is the function of this surface texture on the aluminum sheet?
Any thoughts if the battery pack is compatible with 800V charging architecture? There has been some back and forth info from Rivian about R1T being “800V ready” for future
Steel cover is better: cheaper & recyclable. Note that organic composites are impossible to recycle except a grind fill or incinerator stock so not very environmental friendly, should only be used where the lower weight or added strength is essential.
Maybe it is just my impression, but this pack looks kind of unsophisticated, like out of a prototype production and not mass manufacturing, if you compare it to the VW pack for example.
Please assume your audience is largely non-technical, so call out jargon, like BNB(?), at least once when using acronyms. Thanks for the exceptionally informative presentations!
Loving these videos, but I would really encourage you to end with a "key take aways" segment in each video, evaluating everything you saw and comparing/contrasting to other existing or potential solutions, and maybe giving a "grade" to the engineering.
I’m sure that’s available in their commercial report$😎
Munro has to pay well for this level of talent❤️
Just 1-2 minutes summary and your thought about whether you liked it or not would do.
I've been wanting to ask this as well.
That is a wonderful idea! Love it
Or just watch the video…
Batteries and battery packs are just so important ! And I love your tear-downs, and analysis...
Thanks Chris!
If ever watched a Fast and Furious movies Family is the most important thing. Sad 😞 I had to learn that from the movies.
Sandy doesn't have to be in all the videos!! So stop apologising! You are doing a good job!! Cheers from OZ
Same thought.
12:59 Sandy would have ranted for six minutes about this.
Same. I'm here to see some cool shit and engineering principles/design that went into making cool shit. Not just see Sandy. Keep it up!
l go into 'tears' everytime you guys teardown a great car! Almost breaks my heart____but l LOVE that you do this FOR US!
With Munro now in the public space we all get to see the engineering differences between automotive brands like never before. Thanks to team at Munro for bringing us along👍
Awesome! Took an EV/hybrid battery class not too long ago so was looking forward to something like this! TY!
Thank you for the awesome content. You’ve assembled a wonderful team of experts. I love listening to you guys!
Thanks for watching!
Or maybe the engineers were like "yeah the carbon top will have a production cost of $3,890 and lets see stamped steel will be.... $177 what do you guys want to do for this part nobody will see?"
Depends whether the cost for the carbon fiber is more than the cost of cells to make up for the range difference due to extra mass for the steel cover
Perhaps the truck they sent to do range testing had a premium set of components that were light weight..
@@playitlouder451 I’m curious about the actual mass of it: the sheet didn’t look that heavy to me.
@@playitlouder451 I feel like wed be talking 100ths or 1000ths of a percent here.
@@playitlouder451 Rivian mica sheet: 3kg. Tesla Mica sheet 15kg.
Tomayto/Tomahto...
It's good to see that Munro staff now acknowledge that this is a body-on-frame vehicle, in contrast to the strange declaration in an earlier Munro Live video ("Rivian R1T Electric Truck | Hoist Review", also featuring Ben) that it was a unibody.
Sounds like Rivian has considerable room for refinement to their designs. Good. I think we all like to see those sorts of improvements.
Would have liked to see the full removal, as a mechanic eventually we'll have to work on all E.V's so would have been interesting to see the removal process
Removing any modern EV battery: remove shield, unplug cables, disconnect hoses, support pack with jack, remove a few bolts, lower...
The puzzling thing it that Ben said that the top cover was bolted to the body, which makes no sense, so it would have been good to see how that worked.
You guys are simply the best at what you do. I’ve been waiting for this part of the battery tear down for the Rivian.
Would be interesting to see that steel battery cover after a few winters in the rust belt.
Rusted through battery pack. Something I never thought about but will definitely be a future issue.
Yeah it will be a problem. Their recent teardown of the Austin Model Y shows that Tesla has also gone to a steel cover for their structural 4680 pack but they powder coated the entire thing.
Great job guys! So good to finally see the Rivian battery pack and be able to compare it to other electric vehicles.
Will there be also a tear down on the thermal management of the battery ?
Is it internally cooled?
If the battery moduls are stacked in to two levels how are the modules be cooled .?
Thx for that great work, every video is a technical journey! Love it ❤️
Hi, I had the chance to see the modules (still together) and it seemed to me that there is a brazed cooling plate between the two modules.
I would like to see if there is sufficient thermal insulation on the underside. This seems to be a problem with many EV.
This video calls out for a summary of Munro's engineering evaluation of what Rivian did with its battery system.
Great video and a lot of knowledge about the Rivian R1T! Thank you for doing this! 🔌⚡🚘
Don't the vents need to seal against water ingress? This would make clip-in vent housings a bit tricky.
Not if it has a a mastic pre-applied to the outer flange of the clip in vent. A lot of open seals use it for the doors and tailgates.
@@xXElementistXx
Doors and tailgates aren't critical watertight seals.
They would also have to account for air expansion and contraction with temperature. It looks like the vents can serve as rubber diaphragms to accommodate the change in air volume (maybe), but there will be a positive pressure when hot and negative pressure when cold. Any clip-in components need to seal against the pressure differentials, so yeah - I can appreciate the use of fasteners to hold any covers in place.
Also easily possible with clip-in. If there is a higher water pressure, it can only come from outside (flooding), so the water itself exerts additional pressure (self-sealing effect).
And the seals don't have to be made of hard rubber, so even smaller forces are enough to seal it and therefore possible by simple manual assembly.
7:44 For consistency of tests you should have also burnt the Rivian foam inside the building as well. Also both pieces should have been cut to the same shape; the Rivian foam was a ball against concrete and the Tesla foam was an airborne shard.
Don't get me wrong, interesting results but testing methodology should be the same. Thanks for the great insight as usual! :)
Only in very few cases will it make a difference whether the material is combustible or self-extinguishing. Because in most cases there is not enough oxygen in the housing and the foam ALWAYS extinguishes itself.
But the cause of the fire in the pack is more likely the cell and it doesn't matter whether the foam goes out after 2 seconds or after 10 seconds, the only important thing is that both materials are not fire accelerators.
Polyurethane releases hydrogen cyanide when burned, so a really bad idea coming from your armchair
@@vidznstuff1 "hydrogen cyanide"; sounds like a Rivian fire would be much worse than a Tesla fire.
Since this is not the Max pack that Rivian offers, I'm curious as where the additional cells will go? If there's no more room, I have to assume they would use different batteries with a higher volumetric energy density.
They are already using cells with the highest volumetric energy density (Li-ion 21700) so they will probably make the battery pack larger (deeper) or else add a second smaller pack, perhaps where the bed storage container is located.
I believe the extra cells will go where the rear underseat storage currently is.
@@Armour783 correct. In the R1S they are placed in the 3rd row instead of the seat.
If you have seen the rolling chassis of R1T you will see there's a wide gap between the battery pack and the rear subframe. I guess that's where the extra batteries go.
The 180 kWh battery apparently has 12 modules instead of 9, with the module sizes (but not the internal configuration) being the same as the 135 kWh battery.
Wouldn't the aluminum cross members also be helpful in moving heat where as a composite would be an insulator? This would also be true with any other part like that top cover. As well as a steel cover is heavier but would probably help in suppressing/containing a fire.
For sure. Composites don’t handle high heat well at all, not to mention the fact that they can be shockingly expensive. I don’t agree with a lot of the judgements on composite use here.
Edit: That’s not to say I think these guys did a bad job! I enjoyed the video and I think it was really well done. But engineering decisions just never happen in a vacuum, so it’s hard for anyone to say with certainty that a decision is good or bad. Other than the Rivian designers, of course.
Great insights, as always. Thanks, dudes!
Nice job boys! Thanks.
Another good video; plus I appreciated their wearing of the proper protective gear.
another great "look behind the curtain"!
Thank you! Cheers!
More like a peek, without the modules removed from the case. It will take at least another video for a decent look, but I assume that's coming.
Good stuff guys. Please in future explain terminology and reasons why a little more, it would help make it clearer. For example, I was able to lookup why Mica is used in EV batteries and what RTV is and its properties, but it would be even better if you briefly explained in the videos. Thanks again, enjoyed it.
You had to look up RTV? I believe they assume the viewers know a little about battery packs since they are watching a video on them. I don't think they have the time to explain every little thing. Whatever your not familiar with, look it up on Google. No offense meant.
It isn’t a common term in my country, at least I haven’t heard it before. I did look them up, as I said. It would make it easier, as I said. No offence taken.
@@tsedge99 Good point - local terminology may vary. Assume that Munro staff are using North American terminology.
I think a brief on-screen caption could be used to define each term, without interrupting or extending the verbal description.
Some self extinguishing additives can be very effective. U.K. building codes require roof tile battens to be fire retardant. Put some sticks into a burning wood stove and the fire will die.
The high number of threaded fasteners on the steel cover adds rigidity to the battery case. I'm sure that's the reason engineers designed it that way, self tapping screws although cheaper and faster to assemble are less sturdy less reliable and less serviceable.
The RTV sealing of the seams is precautionary to prevent water ingress, if you were only to rely on welds it would have to be pressure tested for integrity. It's difficult to decide which is more cost effective and easier to build between the two alternatives but I would guess the RTV being cheaper and quicker.
It's interesting that Rivian uses a superior foam product that's self extinguishing, after all we've been told over and over again that Tesla is ten year ahead of the competition.
99% of the decisions that seem "less optimal" are because startups don't have the time or resources to make optimal decisions. Done and done fast are more important than optimal.
It would be interesting to see what material each foam is made from and how it is produced. Tesla may have gone with a less toxic and low VOC foam product to keep their production impact calculation low. I don't know enough about foam like this to know if the Rivian foam requires some flame retardant additive that might have more emissions that Tesla decided wasn't worth it if they could manage thermal runaway in some other way.
I see updates from people in the industry of recycling battery packs that makes me very happy to see the batteries becoming fully potted now- I know it makes it near-impossible to replace individual cells once done so, but they function like a heat sink for the pack and provide vibration resistance on an individual cell basis, obviously coupled with their fire resistance. I think if that would be coupled with Lucid's cooling of the bottom negative cathode of the cells, that it would be the best" way to make a cylinder-cell EV battery pack.
No one would seriously try to replace individual cells on a commercial basis in any EV battery design. Potting with foam does not form a useful heat sink. Yes, Rivian is end-cooling the cells, and showed that long ago, probably before Lucid produced anything.
Now that Sandy's away, no spilled milk or forklift stunts?
Thank you for the insights. I hope y-all are having fun with it!
Thanks guys!
Fantastic, Please summarize the highlights for technical people like me
I love these videos you guys do. I would like to see how the battery pack comes out. If you have done one before, could you post a link?
Thanks.
Thanks Ben and Antonio for your interesting detailed comments during the battery tear-down video.
CAN'T WAIT TO WATCH THIS!!!
Great information. Greeting from the Netherlands!
how do these flame retardant foams work in low oxygen environments? I can't imagine that inside the pack there's much oxygen to go around. And obviously these foams are not carrying an oxidizer themselves, right? Obviously flame = bad, but I'd guess that there's more that goes into it in actual use? Would love a thorough explanation on how that works
More for preventing or slowing down cell to cell thermal propagation. The foam has low thermal conductivity. Will say too cells in an environment without oxygen, i.e. only nitrogen, will still catch on fire/vent if they get hot enough since the cathode has an oxidizer in it. Not 100% good analogy but same way how rockets can function in space.
Lithium batteries give off oxygen in a thermal runaway
Thank you!
I crash lithium batteries everyday in my RC hobby, in a runaway thermal event……that small layer of foam in both the Rivian and Tesla will be insignificant fire retardant protection, especially as they both burn. Lithium needs no help propagating fire😎 I see that foam more as external thermal protection and packaging NVH.
Oh I see, so it doesn’t really matter that Tesla isn’t using that type of foam?
The foam is not a fire retardant. It has fire retardant in it to keep it from feeding a fire.
I would like to see the battery pack to be more serviceable so when one pack dies you don’t have replace the whole battery pack or when you want to upgrade some of the packs
This
They are designed to not be serviceable.
regarding the point "upgrade some of the packs": i think you mean modules, not packs (since there is just one Pack with multiple modules) - and that is physically not possible. you either upgrade the whole pack, or you dont. If you just upgrade a few Modules you will gain nothing, since the total Capacity is limited by the worst Module. Even worse: you would probably increase the wear possibly quite dramatically on that Module and then have to replace it anyway.
The modules rarely die
Foam was very interesting. Was Tesla blue foam choice perhaps driven by another attribute even though self-extinguishing may have been available and seems a better choice?
I wonder the same thing, like maybe the Tesla foam is optimized to inhibit a reaction with Lithium?
What was the total weight of the battery pack when you removed it?
🤗THANKS BEN AND ANTONIO FOR EXPLAINING …tech for us laypeople 🤔 😍😍😍
great presentation. I would have liked to see more on thermal management, though the tear-down hasn't gotten that far. I really liked the shoulder screws/bolts for mounting plastic connector housing. I don't think snap fittings are good for housings needing to seal against water intrusion.
Ben ready to fire-cut stuff. YESS!
What is the weight of this battery pack ? Thanks and of course great info video.
Just started the video so excited thank you
Terrific presentation kudos
Is it possible to know what kind of fuses do they use and what voltage and amps of the fuses? Lookin forward to having the answers
Thank you guys
Thank you!
Love the boys, doing a great job.
I love all of these videos. Like the content is obviously nowhere else and wholly awesome. I do feel like some of the criticisms are a bit unfair, like the asymmetry in the battery case. We don't know what resources the design engineers are working with. It's not like simplifying that aspect will free up resources to work on the Ocean Coast interior challenges, right? Or while comparing and contrasting the threading vs. OEMs, perhaps you could more easily apply brute force skilled labor temporarily here with no problem while you wait for the proper machines to get online in the factories for the next iteration, right?
I just feel like bottom line when we look at the R1T, it's a well built, efficiently manufactured machine for a first consumer car. Analogies are hard because obviously the trail has already been blazed but this is light years ahead in every category than the Tesla Roadster or even the first Model S. Including, importantly, demand.
My impression of Rivian's manufacturing is they're getting it right and everything that's being pointed to are not any kind of red flag. Challenges will be exactly what the CEO said they will be, supply. They'll figure out how to thread things efficiently on their own terms in extremely short order.
So the pack components (contactors, battery managers, etc.) that might fail and have to be replaced can't be without taking the cover off? That's a lot of cost that might require the whole pack full of good cells to be swapped out. Does Rivian have any economical way of swapping in guaranteed refurbished packs that would not saddle the customer with a heart-stopping repair?
Totally agree. Just ask the engineers at ford why they have stopped selling the mach e. For that exact reason it will be very costly to fix. Its like ford putting the water pump inside the motor. Do they never learn!!
Rivian relies on Samsung SDI for its supply of 2170 cells. Tesla's primary supplier of 2170 cells remains Panasonic, via the Nevada Gigafactory.
Having threaded components welded to the battery cover looks like trouble to me. Suppose during the life of the car someone has to unscrew whatever was attached to the cover and while doing that, or even while reassembling things, the threads strip out? How does the mechanic recover from that? Replace with great big self tappers like some kind of Chinese lawn furniture? ick!
The comparison between the Rivian rubbery top cover of the modules, to the Tesla foam that is applied in between the cells is not an apples to apples comparison. Lets see if that material in the Rivian is applied in the same manner as in the Tesla packs. I was really disappointed in the excessive amounts of the black rtv all over the welds around the pack. That just leads me to believe that they don't have faith in the welds being air tight. As someone who worked on Model S packs for 5 years I can really see lots of similarities with this pack. From the center spine and module set up to the extra module turned sideways in the front of the pack. Over all a decent looking battery. My only concern would be the gaps where the micas don't completely cover, but really a minor gripe.
Interesting comparing this to a 2012 Nissan Leaf traction battery pack I disassembled. There are pros and cons for engineering in both. So much simpler dealing with the two cell battery modules in the Leaf. But chalk and cheese to manufacture cells and batteries.
Wish you would dissemble the module to investigate cell type/configuration and ease of replacement.
From what was shown, replacement of a module or cells appears not to be a consideration. The engineering here is really leaning towards 'what can we do to make this thing strong and durable in the event of an incident'. I think overall, Rivian has over-engineered a lot of this vehicle and there is a lot of room for 'savings'. That said, it's the first production model. I hope for thier bottom line, they can get some egineering cost analysis done (like this) so they can get profitable on these. There's more vehicle here than what they are being sold for. That's a losing proposition in the short term. Long term they need to be able to make a profit or it won't matter.
A later video will presumably show the modules removed and torn down.
@@richpalmisano1740 no one replaces cells within a failed module. We will presumably see module replacement in the next video - there's no indication in this video of how difficult that will be.
thanks, folks.
Thanks guys! Good stuff.
Hey team. I watched all Tesla videos back to back but nowadays you’re going in much more technical depth than I can consume. This is fine, but could you try doing a short summary of the highlights at the end?
Would help the techno-curious like myself 😊
Informative, especially the comparisons. Am I correct to assume that the "power conversion system" is in one of those triangular corners on the front of the skateboard?
It looks like that casting at the back of the pack is also different from the first two. So they have three different castings that probably could have all been the same. Rivian builds a beautiful truck, but they def need some cost analysis. It certainly seems like that could save a ton of money all over the vehicle without losing anything in quality.
Prob needed to get to production.
@@philipparana9225 Yes, no doubt of that. But getting to production doesnt make them successful. Plently of long shuttered automotive companies made it to production. Now they have to figure out how to turn a profit. And judging by the price rise announcement earlier, they cant do that with this build as it stands.
Casting? the small housings for connections are castings. The front and back are extrusions which are bent to shape; Ben says front and rear are the same extrusion so I'll believe that - they're just bent differently.
Interesting they have the machine shop tap the perimeter holes as well. Would save time and cost just using thread cutting bolts
How do the fire resistant treatments last? We have seen in aircraft some of these treatments have been designed to pass the initial testing but become highly flammable with time!
Polyurethane is kinda fire resistant on its own, so not a problem here.
@@tukid666 Hi, thanks for your reply. I am not an expert but plastics are a rabbit hole of interesting complexity. From the little research I have seen PU's do have some fire resistance but still have fire problems including giving off cyanide at higher temps.
There are paints (used inside the box postal pickup boxes, etc.) that are inherently self extinguishing. They char, carbonize and stop burning. No time limit on that, so presumably the same thing can be done with plastic.
In terms of maintenance: when the battery pack needs replacement, will have to replace the whole battery module, or will you be able to replace an individual battery module?
Where is the pyro fuse located! I dropped the battery took the lid off but no Pyro Fuse.
Maybe it's just me, but the battery pack doesn't look like it fit anymore cells, so how would they package the max pack, would they have to sacrifice the gear tunnel to pack in more cells? or raise the floor of the truck to pack more?
Remember, this vehicle is designed to go off road and go into ~3 feet of water. That may be a reason for the extra RTV and more robust battery vents. Vents need to ONLY let air in and out. No water.
I agree with your input, I had the same conclusions..there is nothing with extra safety.
I understand cost cutting measures, and that a steel cover is highly likely to be lifetime, but how is this packaged in the skateboard? Can water get to this cover in normal northeast winter driving? Had the same concern with the wheel well vents found in the frunk removal video. A neat idea at first glance but might shorten the lifespan of the vehicle in the northeast. Great video as usual!
Assuming this is the large pack. Do you see where the extra packs that make up the max pack will go?
I'd be curious to see the differences, if any "upgrades" in engineering designs or production implementation made with the LFP packs.
Requesting 60fps videos please so there is more clarity when moving the camera around
Hello, Appreciate your work sir.
Can you please tear down the battery modules?
That blue Tesla foam looked like silicone to me. PU gives off a thick black smoke. Silicone smoke tends to be thinner and white, as you see from the blue foam. BTW that white smoke is mainly fine silicon dioxide particles which are very bad for your lungs (silicosis risk).
Right, they should be wearing proper respirators for the demo inside
@@aayotechnology For that small a test it's pretty safe unless you start sniffing the smoke directly. It's not like they are doing it every day.
It's not silicone. It's almost like a closed cell polystyrene
@@vidznstuff1 Polystyrene burns with a thick black smoke. The smoke from that blue foam was white. Silicone rubber is one of the few plastics/rubbers that burn with that white smoke.
Looks like a prototype design that made it into (early) production series.
While he's in the Netherlands, I would love to hear Sandy's comment on dutch traffic engineering.
Sandy on a bicyle!
@@RogierYou and wooden shoes 😆
What are you doing stepsister? Ohh, I'm just looking at this battery pack tearrr downnn!!
The weight of the top cover isn't given, either, which is a bit surprising. Maybe weights will be part of a future video.
Excellent 👍
Has the cell volume to pack volume ratio been calculated?
Rivian went to the AvE school of engineering. "The bigger the gob, the better the job."
Yes!
What was the weight of the battery pack? Rivian didn't want to disclose this for some reason.
WHOA!!!!!
Hello Sandy, I love your videos. I learned so much. I have a question, I had the opportunity of looking at the Rivian Battery Enclosure and noticed that the tray is made from an aluminum sheet with a variety of indentations. Would you know what is the function of this surface texture on the aluminum sheet?
Netherlands huh? I bet Sandy is in Eindhoven. Mmm... wonder if Lightyear gave him a call.
I hope he can help them to make the next car generation much cheaper!
Did this have the underbody shield? Lots of folks would like to know if it is needed and worth $2000.
Any thoughts if the battery pack is compatible with 800V charging architecture? There has been some back and forth info from Rivian about R1T being “800V ready” for future
Is the top cover holding up the whole pack? I wasn't clear on that.
It had a mix of bolts going all the way through as well as some bolts only going into the top.
What's the benefit of composite vs steel battery pack covers?
Great video !
Is there any way to get to know about the BMS and it’s sensors and connections?
Sandy in Netherlands? Man, could have been an epic meetup!
Sandy and another EV RUclipsr Im sure we'll be seeing together.
how in the world are they going to fit the max pack? will it be taller and reduce interior leg room?
Steel cover is better: cheaper & recyclable. Note that organic composites are impossible to recycle except a grind fill or incinerator stock so not very environmental friendly, should only be used where the lower weight or added strength is essential.
Nobody asked you.
Maybe it is just my impression, but this pack looks kind of unsophisticated, like out of a prototype production and not mass manufacturing, if you compare it to the VW pack for example.
I looked away, and came back @7:37. That didn’t look right at all. 🤣🤣
great review. thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Please assume your audience is largely non-technical, so call out jargon, like BNB(?), at least once when using acronyms. Thanks for the exceptionally informative presentations!
This is for a technical audience, so you need to drink from a firehose to keep up
864 batteries per module? How are those 2170 type batteries connected? In a series or parallel connection?
Not gonna drop the LinkedIn link in the description with your other links?
Sorry about that! It's updated now, but here is the link for you as well: www.linkedin.com/company/munro-live