Paul, you've already left a lasting legacy with me. When my wife died, it was music that helped me get through it. I'm a degreed classical musician who does appreciate high end audio. I found you shortly after my wife died and I still look forward to hearing what you have to say each and every day. Thank you for being there.
When my wife died I found I was unable to listen to music , I found it too intense and emotional . It's called anhedonia fortunately in my case it lasted about six months
Paul, I think the idea of a book exploring your insights into circuitry and sound is a great idea, I think the people you assume will not like the book are the engineer type skeptics, I have little use for them because they refuse to admit that they cannot measure everything and in many cases as technology has advanced to measure things they thought didn’t matter they rely on old concepts from their engineering education that might be out of date and have since been objectively proven the opposite of their opinion. While I hesitate to say audiophile engineering is a dark art, I do think we need people who have tested the effects of the immeasurable over time and honed it into rubric, this is how science advances, circuitry and psycho acoustics are tricky disciplines and we need to stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.
As long as we don't let the giants who came before us try to stuff us into a box. Imagine you're a corp mfgr., and you've built your entire market structure on a particular technical premise. Now you just hired a group of world class researchers engineers and scientists and they just proved your whole reason for existing to be false or outdated. Now you can have no further advancement until you fess up and/or re-image your company. (my auto correct just swapped re-imagine for re-image. Brilliant.) I am certain there is more than one past or present CEO here who knows what that is like. A short list of options you had in front of you at the time would be very enlightening.
Paul, William from the Netherlands here. First of all best wishes for the new year for you and your loved ones with health being the first. I’m 55 years old and when I grow up I would like to be like you 😂 You’re an inspiration. I bought your previous book also and it was great. I don’t own any psaudio equipment (yet) - I’ve been on Linn since 20 years, but the way you approach your mission and convey that to the general public, so anyone, is highly commendable. Just wanted to get that out there. All the best William
As a fellow septuagenarian (what a word) I’m very impressed with your ability to take a lick’n and keep on ticking’. I started studying electronics at thirty five, driven by the urge to design a few improvements, build what I couldn’t afford and have a good retirement job. Health issues have robbed me of my retirement goals but I’m still able to listen and enjoy. If I could “take it with me” I’d bring my stereo! Keep up the good work Paul.
I'm definitely a nerd! The new book that your contemplating, sounds just like what I have been waiting for! I'll buy one just as soon as it's available.
That’s exactly what Paul wants to hear. But did you notice that he didn’t answer the question at all? I suppose because he himself doesn’t really know the answer. Or is it all in his book which he heavily promotes here? 😅
I'm glad that you are writing a book for audio nerds! I'm always interested in why designers make certain choices, and what trade-offs are involved to produce a component that sounds good and remains attainable. Paul, thank you for hanging in there!
'I don't give a flying fffk' is quite what I say when audiophiles insist that you may only enjoy music on high end equipment rather than on my low cost budget system.
To each there own , you sound mad brother , be happy with what you have in life , I used to have a life , a family , I owned my own home and business. Now I'm homeless living in my car in the high desert away from life . Just don't take anything for granted
Thank you Paul. You are such an asset to the community of those who wish to be emotionally engaged with the music we listen to. I look forward to your new series of what sounds like texts documenting your professional journey as a high end HiFi solution provider in terms of measurements, hardware architectures, circuit topology, component selection and so forth as your guide to those of us who are consumers and the next generation of HiFi designers. As you mentioned, that takes courage. Come to think of it, I don't remember any one else having the courage or caring enough to comprehensively layout his body of knowledge, accumulated over a long career to guide purchase decisions and the next generation of HiFi solution providers. Thanks and well done from a fellow septuagenarian.
everyone finds their own recipe of joy for me it's a paper cone, a silk dome, a tube amp and a multi-bit dac, some tube traps, a soft rug under my feet and a comfortable couch 😊
@@A-gks all my electronics are from reputable brands and comply with all industry standards besides it, human ears are more sensitive to temporal distortion rather than amplitudes or harmonics, even if they were so i'm fine)
@A-gks but, it's all the nice distortions. It will sound sweet, smooth, rich, with great tonal colours. Someone else will hear the sweet, smooth and rich as thick, heavy, treacle like.
That book sounds fascinating and has the potential to ignite some meaningful discussions. It’s true that it might open you up to some ridicule-that’s just the nature of the audio world-but if you’re as unconcerned as you’ve said, there’s only good to be gained. Engaging with people eager to prove you either right or wrong can lead to valuable conversations and fresh perspectives.
Speed and immediacy of the sound and transients plus the engagement/emotional side I call the toe-tapping factor. That's PRAT to me. I usually think of it pertaining to speakers the most.
Totally agree with this. It’s the attack on piano keys, percussion, etc. as well as the changing of tonality between attack and sustain / decay. In as much as it can be quantified I’ve found the most reliable indicator of how equipment might have this speed and immediacy to be the square wave test. Definitely a speaker characteristic, but in my system the biggest difference in this area has come from amplifier upgrades.
Nice room Paul. Congratulations and regards from Portugal, Europe. PS, just an idea. One day a month, show us some good music (CD, vinyl or otherwise) playing in your showroom for our enjoyment. And please show us the details of the music and the sound system.
While I’m not trying to disagree with Paul, I’m not sure that PRAT translates to ‘emotionally engaging’. The Classic Sonus Faber sound that Paul is not a fan of is emotionally engaging, but is pretty much the opposite of PRAT. Meanwhile the Naim NAP-250 power amp costs a bit more than a BHK-250, puts a bit less than half as many watts and weighs about half. It seems like PRAT is expensive to build in 😊
Looking forward to reading your next audiophile book, thanks for your commitment to your audience. I wish I had half your dedication to spread the good words on the holly grail of HIFI. 😎
I'd definitely buy that last book Paul. As an electronics engineer who's ended up in electrical and instrumentation engineering in heavy industry that's something I'd love to read about particularly as I've not ended up in that line of work as much as would have loved to. Never too late I suppose though.
Great topic today. Think about looking into the areas of circuit topology in the amplifier that deal with time and phase alignment. It’s possible that this is a major area of concern to getting better PRaT.
Interesting subject. I grew up with the Beatles Zep etc (I'm 69) but for some reason the song "A Theme from a Summer Place" really resonates with me Not sure why...
Go for it Paul, you are obviously one of the good guys of hi fi and don't deserve any negative comments . Some people just have to be negative and find an axe to grind even if it's not blunt, cable naysayers are some of the worst. It bugs me when comments try to paint you in a negative light, I challenge any of them to name anyone that is fairer and politer than yourself and the recommendations or advice you give are always unbiased. I have never heard you say PS audio is the best and everyone else's is inferior. You have contributed a large amount to the Hii Fi fraternity for a long time and should be nothing but proud. Kindest regards from New Zealand
This kind of behaviour is the problem in hifi, nobody wants to call out shady behaviour just to not offend someone or burn bridges for business. Only in audio business people can say it sounds better this way than that way and don't back it up with anything but I feel like it. There's so much actual audio science available for people to read but all we do is listen to salesmen.
Yup. Write that 10th book. Pass on your knowledge and experience after so many years of developing and listening to so many pieces of gear and how they affect different systems. Make it so techs and non-techs will get a great deal out of it. Then take pride in all you have accomplished and get back to doing what you are so good at. Making excellent audio products, doing these excellent videos, and enjoying life with your family and friends.
The problem with PRaT is that it can't (afaik) be measured. Whilst it can certainly be heard it does mean that certain sectors of our community will dismiss it. Just like cables etc.
Cables can be measured. I carefully choose the values of resistance and reactance I need before buying speaker cables. I feel that the "prat" of my system came from the music and state of mind, which is probably harder to measure, and, speakers, room, amplifier and source which can and should be measured.
Hi Paul, PR&T is a fabulous subject for a technical book. Being from the UK originally, I most associate PR&T with: Linn (Ivor Teifenbrun), Naim (Julian Vereker) & NAD (Bjorn Erik Edvarsen, BEE). I'm completely unaware of other designers that emphasized PR&T, so there is much research to be done. Please make an announcement on YT when the book is available? Thanks!
I think we need to start with the fact that pace, rhythm and timing are at most synonyms for each other and at minimum have overlapping definitions to some extent. So what is meant exactly by these marketing terms? Assuming they have relevant meaning, is the idea that an amp imparts unique p, r and t to source material, independent of that which source material actually contains? That’s hardly hifi. Or is it that the amp accurately reproduces the p, r and t that was already there, in which case the amp has no p, r and t of its own, which makes the topic moot. In summary the hifi world has gone mad, and the adjectives that manufacturers use does nothing to help. Go and count how many times the word “stunning” is used in ps audio product descriptions. It’s embarrassing. One would conclude that a brief listening session on a ps audio setup would lead to religious experiences, cardiac events or both on a regular basis.
The original Enviroments recording series from Syntonic research was proof that audio frequencies could induce emotions in all living creatures. It’s all about the quality and the sounds. I experimented with music mixed with sounds of nature and some of the results were quite fantastic. There are some artists who recorded there music with natural sounds in the background. Brian Eno and Robert Fripp did this back in the early 80’s. Along with pianist Harold Budd. It was part of their Ambient Series.
I think it all relates to the phase accurate reproduction of low level information. It has to be in the recording. The source has to be able to play it above its noise floor and the rest of the system has to not destroy it or drown it out in noise. When well done, we react at an instinctual level more than an intellectual level. Spontaneous toe tapping, emotional response and that hair standing up reaction is just us instinctively reacting to stuff we perceive as real.
Isn't prat a British slang term for a fool? I always assumed that anyone talking to a British audiophile who bought into the notion that electronic audio equipment has anything to do with the triple description of the exact same thing, rhythm, rhythm, and rhythm by three different names, was exposing themselves as just that, a prat, a fool. The rhythm of music is something that's determined by the performer, not the amplifier or speakers. Maybe a turntable or tape player can mess with the timing because it's not keeping a steady payback speed, or it's running at the wrong speed, but the amp? A tweeter? That sounds like nonsense to me. There could be something to it, but no one has explained it to me in a way that fits my basic definition of logic yet.
Linear phase response is key, particularly under multi-tonal testing. The edge of a square wave is built up from an additive set of harmonics - any relative lag / phase shift with those harmonic frequencies will cause the start-stop characteristics of the edge of the wave to change. This is from Fourier Theory.
@@Sunshine_Superman got the spelling. Fixed my reply. Thanks for that. So I'm still unconvinced that the acronym PRaT was created for any reason other than to spell out prat. It's literally the same four letters. Could you explain why the acronym uses three different words to describe essentially the same thing? How is rhythm different from timing, or pace?
Hi Paul, hope you read this. Here is my take from down here in Sydney, Australia. At mid frequencies we are highly sensitive to distortion but less so to dynamics. At lower frequencies, gradually increasing below 500 Hertz, we become less sensitive to distortion but gradually more sensitive to dynamics. For those who study the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves, if we invert them they reveal that low frequencies are less compressed relative to mid frequencies. At 30 Hertz it requires around 70dB-SPL before 30 Hertz is heard. This is why low frequencies can seem to emerge from a black background. It also means that harmonics of those low frequencies are heard _before_ the low frequency fundamental. That means that we hear the harmonics first and if there is any delay in the fundamental showing up within a certain time, that it will sound slow. Identify those things that causes that delay, and yes circuit topologies, feedback and power supplies, all these can figure in, and then PRaT becomes a real thing. As for mid-frequency distortion, there is now evidence that we can hear even below -80dB distortion and like John Curl I would point to the 7th harmonic as a bad marker, and that means that below 0.05% distortion is audible. But several percent distortion may not be a significant factor below 100 Hertz, but here dynamics becomes a big factor. That is my 50 years plus experience talking. Thanks for a great channel. Cheers, Joe R.
Now I am a firm believer in PRaT and think it's a useful concept in audio, but as a Brit, I can't stop laughing because it's a word in Britain... and... well just google what is a prat... And , Paul, you're not one! You are certainly not a prat.
To me the speakers are the most important PrAT component. If they have really low spectral decay and don’t store energy, they don’t smear the tempo. Beryllium drivers FTW.
I like the term transient fidelity in this context. You can have everything right but if the rise and fall of transients isn’t right I can’t get into the music bc the realism isn’t there and the rhythmic flow is off. There is no ‘elasticity’. Systems that get that right are where it’s at for me and they don’t have to be expensive. My old rotel a-10 has ‘it’ and some expensive gear doesn’t.
That book would be a door to so many different paths, because to know which parts to use for amplifiers wether 12-16V or 110-220V and have quality sound from (cough cough) 2Hz to 20KHz even if it is 6 to 8 amplifiers 🎉
Here we go again. The only way to truly judge minute changes in circuitry is through double blind A/B testing. I’ll stipulate that it would be impossible to test every circuit design vs every other this way. But for broad topologies- SET tube amps vs SET tube amps, class d vs class d, class a/b vs class ab etc etc., no human can hear and identify which amp is which all other things equal. This assumes the amps are the same general topology (but with design and circuit design differences) are the same wattage, and are similar quality (using price as a very imperfect proxy for quality as there’s no other way to level set this). Further assumes all else equal including source, passage and DB level at the listening position. It’s just pure fantasy to think the typical listener can discern such minutia in design over multiple double blind trials. And this has nothing to do with the true statement that music is evocative and spurs emotion. That’s a separate topic and an unnecessary preamble to the core of the assertion made here. OK folks, fire away. I can take it.
The music itself has, by far, the greatest impact on PRaT. Depending on the recording quality, you might be more or less engaged with the music because of the gear.
Emotional involvement is too vague and personal to be attributed to specs or circuitry. People can be moved to tears listening to their favourite pieces on a portable radio. Some high end gear can seemingly fail to connect even though it has many of the audiophile boxes ticked.
PRaT is very real, and least talked about in audio reviews. But poor PRaT can easily kill a song, especially one that relies on rhythms. Some songs you just start getting when you have heard them on a good system, because they are so demanding of the gear they play on.
PRaT is far too ambiguous to mean anything, and everybody defines it differently. We don't need more terms to describe whether one piece sounds better than another. It's just more audiophile silliness.
The moment someone mentions PRaT to an electrical engineer, they lose all credibility. Electronics have slew rates and transient recovery but no emotional induction unless you're well on the left side of the IQ bell curve. Amps don't release endorphins or have moods. Music has a direct line to your emotions, but not amps. Attributing emotions to an amp is, at best, superstition in its worst form. Or worse; an outright delusion - magical thinking.
Didn't answer the question. You could have stayed at a couple things in the circuit that might change the sound but neglected to do it. Here's why, it's not the gear itself it's about the music. The emotion comes from the music itself and the memories we associate with it. NO capacitor resistor or transistor will get us more engaged than another. Paul is talking bologna
@@ryanschipp8513 Simple. Better parts/components/equipment (driven by capacitors and transistors) reproduce music better. No question about that. That makes the same music more engaging. So, while for sure it is about the music, which is where it all starts, the better the music is reproduced I.e. sounds, the more engaging. Now, as to the technical how, why, etc. I don’t care much. It’s the end result that counts.
@tomwechsler22 if it's simple you'd answer the question which you didn't just like paul. How can Parts make an amplifier or any other component present more Prat. This was the question by the guy that wrote In. If you can't answer it just say so. No need to go off on a tangent
@@ryanschipp8513 I was focused on your comments about Caps and transistors. You may not get that. Here’s the thing, if none of that made a difference, then the music would be just as engaging on a small transistor radio played on an AM station as it would be on a true hifi system. Your first statement though seems to say it does not matter what you play the music through, it’s just the music. What I am saying is it does matter what you play it through. The technical aspect of how - does not matter to me. The end result does. As to Paul’s post - I was not commenting on that at all.
Paul, you've already left a lasting legacy with me. When my wife died, it was music that helped me get through it. I'm a degreed classical musician who does appreciate high end audio. I found you shortly after my wife died and I still look forward to hearing what you have to say each and every day. Thank you for being there.
When my wife died I found I was unable to listen to music , I found it too intense and emotional . It's called anhedonia fortunately in my case it lasted about six months
Sorry for your loss brother .
WOW, Paul, you left us with a zinger there at the end. Good for you, mate. 👌👍🎧
Paul, I think the idea of a book exploring your insights into circuitry and sound is a great idea, I think the people you assume will not like the book are the engineer type skeptics, I have little use for them because they refuse to admit that they cannot measure everything and in many cases as technology has advanced to measure things they thought didn’t matter they rely on old concepts from their engineering education that might be out of date and have since been objectively proven the opposite of their opinion. While I hesitate to say audiophile engineering is a dark art, I do think we need people who have tested the effects of the immeasurable over time and honed it into rubric, this is how science advances, circuitry and psycho acoustics are tricky disciplines and we need to stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.
As long as we don't let the giants who came before us try to stuff us into a box. Imagine you're a corp mfgr., and you've built your entire market structure on a particular technical premise. Now you just hired a group of world class researchers engineers and scientists and they just proved your whole reason for existing to be false or outdated. Now you can have no further advancement until you fess up and/or re-image your company. (my auto correct just swapped re-imagine for re-image. Brilliant.)
I am certain there is more than one past or present CEO here who knows what that is like.
A short list of options you had in front of you at the time would be very enlightening.
Paul,
William from the Netherlands here.
First of all best wishes for the new year for you and your loved ones with health being the first.
I’m 55 years old and when I grow up I would like to be like you 😂
You’re an inspiration. I bought your previous book also and it was great.
I don’t own any psaudio equipment (yet) - I’ve been on Linn since 20 years, but the way you approach your mission and convey that to the general public, so anyone, is highly commendable.
Just wanted to get that out there.
All the best
William
As a fellow septuagenarian (what a word) I’m very impressed with your ability to take a lick’n and keep on ticking’. I started studying electronics at thirty five, driven by the urge to design a few improvements, build what I couldn’t afford and have a good retirement job. Health issues have robbed me of my retirement goals but I’m still able to listen and enjoy. If I could “take it with me” I’d bring my stereo! Keep up the good work Paul.
I'm definitely a nerd! The new book that your contemplating, sounds just like what I have been waiting for! I'll buy one just as soon as it's available.
Me too! This book might become the holy grail - not only for PRaT ... ;-)
That’s exactly what Paul wants to hear. But did you notice that he didn’t answer the question at all?
I suppose because he himself doesn’t really know the answer. Or is it all in his book which he heavily promotes here? 😅
I'm glad that you are writing a book for audio nerds! I'm always interested in why designers make certain choices, and what trade-offs are involved to produce a component that sounds good and remains attainable. Paul, thank you for hanging in there!
'I don't give a flying fffk' is quite what I say when audiophiles insist that you may only enjoy music on high end equipment rather than on my low cost budget system.
And no one gives a flying F that you don’t 😂
To each there own , you sound mad brother , be happy with what you have in life , I used to have a life , a family , I owned my own home and business. Now I'm homeless living in my car in the high desert away from life . Just don't take anything for granted
Thank you Paul.
You are such an asset to the community of those who wish to be emotionally engaged with the music we listen to.
I look forward to your new series of what sounds like texts documenting your professional journey as a high end HiFi solution provider in terms of measurements, hardware architectures, circuit topology, component selection and so forth as your guide to those of us who are consumers and the next generation of HiFi designers.
As you mentioned, that takes courage.
Come to think of it, I don't remember any one else having the courage or caring enough to comprehensively layout his body of knowledge, accumulated over a long career to guide purchase decisions and the next generation of HiFi solution providers.
Thanks and well done from a fellow septuagenarian.
everyone finds their own recipe of joy
for me it's a paper cone, a silk dome, a tube amp and a multi-bit dac, some tube traps, a soft rug under my feet and a comfortable couch 😊
That's literally all the highest distortion ingredients in a single recipe, but if it works for you...
@@A-gks all my electronics are from reputable brands and comply with all industry standards
besides it, human ears are more sensitive to temporal distortion rather than amplitudes or harmonics, even if they were
so i'm fine)
@A-gks but, it's all the nice distortions. It will sound sweet, smooth, rich, with great tonal colours.
Someone else will hear the sweet, smooth and rich as thick, heavy, treacle like.
That book sounds fascinating and has the potential to ignite some meaningful discussions. It’s true that it might open you up to some ridicule-that’s just the nature of the audio world-but if you’re as unconcerned as you’ve said, there’s only good to be gained. Engaging with people eager to prove you either right or wrong can lead to valuable conversations and fresh perspectives.
YES PLEASE! Please share your circuit topology insights with us!
One of the great things about being over 70 is not caring what other people think about you.
I haven’t cared what people have thought about me since I was 20 lol
@@Audiofreak71 Same here!
I never cared from a child about what people think , 😂
Speed and immediacy of the sound and transients plus the engagement/emotional side I call the toe-tapping factor. That's PRAT to me. I usually think of it pertaining to speakers the most.
Totally agree with this. It’s the attack on piano keys, percussion, etc. as well as the changing of tonality between attack and sustain / decay. In as much as it can be quantified I’ve found the most reliable indicator of how equipment might have this speed and immediacy to be the square wave test. Definitely a speaker characteristic, but in my system the biggest difference in this area has come from amplifier upgrades.
Songs that give me chills down my spine is golden earring twilight zone, red rider lunatic fringe Nightwish, the poet and the pendulum
L
Paul is the man!!..76 and keeps on going.
Way ahead of you Paul , at 66 I don’t give a flying 🐿️ either 😊.
I am waiting for this book quite impatiently! Hurry up Paul
Brilliant idea, this will be your best book yet!
Nice room Paul. Congratulations and regards from Portugal, Europe. PS, just an idea. One day a month, show us some good music (CD, vinyl or otherwise) playing in your showroom for our enjoyment. And please show us the details of the music and the sound system.
While I’m not trying to disagree with Paul, I’m not sure that PRAT translates to ‘emotionally engaging’. The Classic Sonus Faber sound that Paul is not a fan of is emotionally engaging, but is pretty much the opposite of PRAT. Meanwhile the Naim NAP-250 power amp costs a bit more than a BHK-250, puts a bit less than half as many watts and weighs about half. It seems like PRAT is expensive to build in 😊
Looking forward to reading your next audiophile book, thanks for your commitment to your audience. I wish I had half your dedication to spread the good words on the holly grail of HIFI. 😎
I'd definitely buy that last book Paul. As an electronics engineer who's ended up in electrical and instrumentation engineering in heavy industry that's something I'd love to read about particularly as I've not ended up in that line of work as much as would have loved to. Never too late I suppose though.
Great video, and I'd love to see the uncensored version, just for the LOLs!
I can't wait, please start writing it!
Great topic today. Think about looking into the areas of circuit topology in the amplifier that deal with time and phase alignment. It’s possible that this is a major area of concern to getting better PRaT.
I’m 72 and the way you closed the video was awesome because I too don’t give a flying you know what 😂 keep up the good work 👍
Good for you, Paul, just follow your heart.
YES Paul do it!! You look great for 76 btw!
Interesting subject. I grew up with the Beatles Zep etc (I'm 69) but for some reason the song "A Theme from a Summer Place" really resonates with me Not sure why...
Go for it Paul, you are obviously one of the good guys of hi fi and don't deserve any negative comments . Some people just have to be negative and find an axe to grind even if it's not blunt, cable naysayers are some of the worst. It bugs me when comments try to paint you in a negative light, I challenge any of them to name anyone that is fairer and politer than yourself and the recommendations or advice you give are always unbiased. I have never heard you say PS audio is the best and everyone else's is inferior. You have contributed a large amount to the Hii Fi fraternity for a long time and should be nothing but proud.
Kindest regards from New Zealand
This kind of behaviour is the problem in hifi, nobody wants to call out shady behaviour just to not offend someone or burn bridges for business.
Only in audio business people can say it sounds better this way than that way and don't back it up with anything but I feel like it.
There's so much actual audio science available for people to read but all we do is listen to salesmen.
Yup. Write that 10th book. Pass on your knowledge and experience after so many years of developing and listening to so many pieces of gear and how they affect different systems. Make it so techs and non-techs will get a great deal out of it. Then take pride in all you have accomplished and get back to doing what you are so good at. Making excellent audio products, doing these excellent videos, and enjoying life with your family and friends.
The problem with PRaT is that it can't (afaik) be measured. Whilst it can certainly be heard it does mean that certain sectors of our community will dismiss it. Just like cables etc.
Cables can be measured. I carefully choose the values of resistance and reactance I need before buying speaker cables. I feel that the "prat" of my system came from the music and state of mind, which is probably harder to measure, and, speakers, room, amplifier and source which can and should be measured.
Hi Paul, PR&T is a fabulous subject for a technical book. Being from the UK originally, I most associate PR&T with: Linn (Ivor Teifenbrun), Naim (Julian Vereker) & NAD (Bjorn Erik Edvarsen, BEE). I'm completely unaware of other designers that emphasized PR&T, so there is much research to be done. Please make an announcement on YT when the book is available? Thanks!
I think we need to start with the fact that pace, rhythm and timing are at most synonyms for each other and at minimum have overlapping definitions to some extent. So what is meant exactly by these marketing terms? Assuming they have relevant meaning, is the idea that an amp imparts unique p, r and t to source material, independent of that which source material actually contains? That’s hardly hifi. Or is it that the amp accurately reproduces the p, r and t that was already there, in which case the amp has no p, r and t of its own, which makes the topic moot. In summary the hifi world has gone mad, and the adjectives that manufacturers use does nothing to help. Go and count how many times the word “stunning” is used in ps audio product descriptions. It’s embarrassing. One would conclude that a brief listening session on a ps audio setup would lead to religious experiences, cardiac events or both on a regular basis.
The original Enviroments recording series from Syntonic research was proof that audio frequencies could induce emotions in all living creatures. It’s all about the quality and the sounds. I experimented with music mixed with sounds of nature and some of the results were quite fantastic. There are some artists who recorded there music with natural sounds in the background. Brian Eno and Robert Fripp did this back in the early 80’s. Along with pianist Harold Budd. It was part of their Ambient Series.
Finally a book for me, YES PLEASE.
Great video
Good for you Paul!
I think it all relates to the phase accurate reproduction of low level information. It has to be in the recording. The source has to be able to play it above its noise floor and the rest of the system has to not destroy it or drown it out in noise.
When well done, we react at an instinctual level more than an intellectual level. Spontaneous toe tapping, emotional response and that hair standing up reaction is just us instinctively reacting to stuff we perceive as real.
Isn't prat a British slang term for a fool? I always assumed that anyone talking to a British audiophile who bought into the notion that electronic audio equipment has anything to do with the triple description of the exact same thing, rhythm, rhythm, and rhythm by three different names, was exposing themselves as just that, a prat, a fool.
The rhythm of music is something that's determined by the performer, not the amplifier or speakers. Maybe a turntable or tape player can mess with the timing because it's not keeping a steady payback speed, or it's running at the wrong speed, but the amp? A tweeter? That sounds like nonsense to me. There could be something to it, but no one has explained it to me in a way that fits my basic definition of logic yet.
Linear phase response is key, particularly under multi-tonal testing. The edge of a square wave is built up from an additive set of harmonics - any relative lag / phase shift with those harmonic frequencies will cause the start-stop characteristics of the edge of the wave to change. This is from Fourier Theory.
Still just the one 't' and no. PRaT is an acronym and prat is a noun.
You should at least get your spelling correct for the key focus of your opinion.
@@Sunshine_Superman got the spelling. Fixed my reply. Thanks for that.
So I'm still unconvinced that the acronym PRaT was created for any reason other than to spell out prat. It's literally the same four letters. Could you explain why the acronym uses three different words to describe essentially the same thing? How is rhythm different from timing, or pace?
I really connect to the theme song from "One Life to Live" in the 1980's.
100% I have had occasions with too much of a 5th that caused me to fall on my Prat!
What contributes to PRAT in circuitry is the ability of the power supply to deliver lots of FAST current which I`ve learned over many years of DIY.
Hi Paul, hope you read this. Here is my take from down here in Sydney, Australia. At mid frequencies we are highly sensitive to distortion but less so to dynamics. At lower frequencies, gradually increasing below 500 Hertz, we become less sensitive to distortion but gradually more sensitive to dynamics. For those who study the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves, if we invert them they reveal that low frequencies are less compressed relative to mid frequencies. At 30 Hertz it requires around 70dB-SPL before 30 Hertz is heard. This is why low frequencies can seem to emerge from a black background. It also means that harmonics of those low frequencies are heard _before_ the low frequency fundamental. That means that we hear the harmonics first and if there is any delay in the fundamental showing up within a certain time, that it will sound slow. Identify those things that causes that delay, and yes circuit topologies, feedback and power supplies, all these can figure in, and then PRaT becomes a real thing. As for mid-frequency distortion, there is now evidence that we can hear even below -80dB distortion and like John Curl I would point to the 7th harmonic as a bad marker, and that means that below 0.05% distortion is audible. But several percent distortion may not be a significant factor below 100 Hertz, but here dynamics becomes a big factor. That is my 50 years plus experience talking. Thanks for a great channel. Cheers, Joe R.
Is that a VPI classic
Go for the circuit book!
Yes sir. I will read it.
Now I am a firm believer in PRaT and think it's a useful concept in audio, but as a Brit, I can't stop laughing because it's a word in Britain... and... well just google what is a prat...
And , Paul, you're not one! You are certainly not a prat.
To me the speakers are the most important PrAT component. If they have really low spectral decay and don’t store energy, they don’t smear the tempo. Beryllium drivers FTW.
I love Grados for their speed
Don’t forget the room.
Use of less feedback increase PRaT?
A flying What now? Is there a chapter on age related hearing loss?
I've been watching these videos for years now and this has to be the most vague, convoluted answer yet!
Yeah, but we don't give a flying fack, because this was better than any PRAT story could have been.
A good old English word - I am of a similar age and feel the same. Here is one nerd who is looking forward to that book - F**k yeah!
I like the term transient fidelity in this context. You can have everything right but if the rise and fall of transients isn’t right I can’t get into the music bc the realism isn’t there and the rhythmic flow is off. There is no ‘elasticity’. Systems that get that right are where it’s at for me and they don’t have to be expensive. My old rotel a-10 has ‘it’ and some expensive gear doesn’t.
Did Paul mute himself for the f-bomb, or was it dubbed out in post-production? 🤭 Either way, thanks for this excellent discussion.
OK, so the last 30 seconds just make me love you more, Paul.
That book would be a door to so many different paths, because to know which parts to use for amplifiers wether 12-16V or 110-220V and have quality sound from (cough cough) 2Hz to 20KHz even if it is 6 to 8 amplifiers 🎉
Salute! 10th books from Paul.
Here we go again. The only way to truly judge minute changes in circuitry is through double blind A/B testing. I’ll stipulate that it would be impossible to test every circuit design vs every other this way. But for broad topologies- SET tube amps vs SET tube amps, class d vs class d, class a/b vs class ab etc etc., no human can hear and identify which amp is which all other things equal. This assumes the amps are the same general topology (but with design and circuit design differences) are the same wattage, and are similar quality (using price as a very imperfect proxy for quality as there’s no other way to level set this). Further assumes all else equal including source, passage and DB level at the listening position. It’s just pure fantasy to think the typical listener can discern such minutia in design over multiple double blind trials. And this has nothing to do with the true statement that music is evocative and spurs emotion. That’s a separate topic and an unnecessary preamble to the core of the assertion made here. OK folks, fire away. I can take it.
Hi Paul, what Cartridge are you using on your VPI? Love your Masterclasses!
Lyra. Thanks!
The best rant of the new year. That should be the motto of 2025. “ I Don’t Give A Flying F”
If you want PRaT, look for an amplifier with no or minimal negative feedback.
Book 10, yes please!
The music itself has, by far, the greatest impact on PRaT. Depending on the recording quality, you might be more or less engaged with the music because of the gear.
Put me down for two copies of the 10th book!
It’s Called
Auditory
Paul 😮
Emotional involvement is too vague and personal to be attributed to specs or circuitry. People can be moved to tears listening to their favourite pieces on a portable radio. Some high end gear can seemingly fail to connect even though it has many of the audiophile boxes ticked.
I'd say the slew rate is pretty important.
"I don't give a fliying F.." my new favourire quote.
You don't like my gear of my music....well.."I dont....
Also at an advanced age, I get it. Tell it all, Paul!
PRaT is very real, and least talked about in audio reviews. But poor PRaT can easily kill a song, especially one that relies on rhythms. Some songs you just start getting when you have heard them on a good system, because they are so demanding of the gear they play on.
In Britain a prat is a bit like a plonker
One person's ' PRaT ' Pace Rhythm and Timing is another person's Pitch Rhythm and Timbre
PRaT is far too ambiguous to mean anything, and everybody defines it differently. We don't need more terms to describe whether one piece sounds better than another. It's just more audiophile silliness.
A flying firetruck is the best kind.
Loud music therapy is real
IDGAFF***,....daaaaaamn
my new favourite quote
you like you're flying monkeys as well😂 happy New year
In Britain, 'prat' is an insult!
Pace, rhythm, and timing are in the music, Not in the equipment.
And some equipment messes it up more than others
Agreed! PRaT comes from musicians not circuits. It's the result of a well crafted song, good performance and recording.
The moment someone mentions PRaT to an electrical engineer, they lose all credibility. Electronics have slew rates and transient recovery but no emotional induction unless you're well on the left side of the IQ bell curve. Amps don't release endorphins or have moods. Music has a direct line to your emotions, but not amps. Attributing emotions to an amp is, at best, superstition in its worst form. Or worse; an outright delusion - magical thinking.
It is called state of the art.
@@mitchtaylor6512 It's called complete BS. 😂
Prat is one of the most ridiculous things I ever came across when I started to get into hifi.
Between the ears.
Didn't answer the question. You could have stayed at a couple things in the circuit that might change the sound but neglected to do it. Here's why, it's not the gear itself it's about the music. The emotion comes from the music itself and the memories we associate with it. NO capacitor resistor or transistor will get us more engaged than another. Paul is talking bologna
Not true for me. They can and do add to the musical experience.
@tomwechsler22 okay so how do they do it? Be specific
@@ryanschipp8513 Simple. Better parts/components/equipment (driven by capacitors and transistors) reproduce music better. No question about that. That makes the same music more engaging. So, while for sure it is about the music, which is where it all starts, the better the music is reproduced I.e. sounds, the more engaging. Now, as to the technical how, why, etc. I don’t care much. It’s the end result that counts.
@tomwechsler22 if it's simple you'd answer the question which you didn't just like paul. How can Parts make an amplifier or any other component present more Prat. This was the question by the guy that wrote In. If you can't answer it just say so. No need to go off on a tangent
@@ryanschipp8513 I was focused on your comments about Caps and transistors. You may not get that. Here’s the thing, if none of that made a difference, then the music would be just as engaging on a small transistor radio played on an AM station as it would be on a true hifi system. Your first statement though seems to say it does not matter what you play the music through, it’s just the music. What I am saying is it does matter what you play it through. The technical aspect of how - does not matter to me. The end result does. As to Paul’s post - I was not commenting on that at all.
Music to create joy? Complete snake oil! It cannot be measured therefore it doesn't exist!
It can be very easily measured and it has been. Just stick the listener in an fMRI machine.
😂
hahahahaha, youre gonna be in _trouble_
This is nonsense! Only with turntables this is real.
PRaT? What a load of tautological nonsense.
An audiophile that doesn't give a F? 😂 Yeah right...good joke... Most are neurotic and highly analytical types.
Hahahaha...I don't give a flying....
I’m first!
You're Useless!