Alright, time to break down my thought process. First, I do think that this movie is important to watch. My ultimate goal is to have you, Meg be able to say that you've watched everything at least in terms of animated content and in the best way possible. I am glad that you did read the comic before watching the movie because it is something to experience sort of on your own time. I understand why people don't like this movie, but I also think that it's not up to me or anyone else to determine whether or not you're going to like or hate a movie. I think that it's okay to react to movies that aren't as well received because it still enables you to voice your thoughts about how the story was presented. I also knew that if you were going to react to this movie, people would have talked about it anyway because it was one of those inevitable things to talk about when it comes to the Killing Joke. And you are getting to the point in the DC Universe and the Arkham games where this story is important especially understanding Oracle's beginning point. The reason why I thought this would be a good time to do this story if at all is simply because you're at the point where the story is important and it at likely would've been spoiled otherwise whether in media or in the comments. My goal is to ultimately make sure that absolutely nothing is spoiled for you that is the reasoning behind me pushing movies at an optimal time, the watch order that I provided. The story points you're hitting makes some of these kinds of stories inevitable. And I do think that even though this movie isn't great, it really demonstrates not only Mark Hamill and Kevin Conroy's range and dynamics but a very important part of their relationship. And it also demonstrates to you the kind of character Joker and even Batman are. I know not everyone would agree with me pushing this movie, but I also think that I'm never going to say "you can't watch this because I think you'll hate it" because ultimately that's not my call to make, it's yours. And I don't want to take that agency from you. I also think it's important to talk about the imperfect stories that DC has. There are a ton of AMAZING stories in the DC Universe ones that I look forward to having you watch, but in order to get those moments, it's necessary to also see maybe some of the less popular stories just so that you can understand the context and story points people pull from. I already knew that both the comic and movie are considered controversial in their own rights. Many people did not like the SA/fridging story of Batgirl. Another point that was heavily contested is that in the end scene of the Killing Joke, it's heavily implied that Batman kills the Joker in this story because he's the only one left laughing. This is another point that people find controversial because people believe that Batman should always live up to his no kill rule. The thing is, I don't think Frank Miller ever intended this story to be anything but a standalone story. Not every iteration uses the same origin as Joker and that's because it's not necessary. Some characters like Batman have set and stone origins. Others like Joker and many others have differing origin points. And you are right, this story is not about Batgirl or Barbara, it's about Joker and Batman and their cruel dynamic and toxic relationship. The movie does try to make this story about Batgirl, but because it's not originally a Batgirl focused story, they do have to make a story from scratch. I think there's a way they could have pulled this off without taking away from the original story. There is a deleted comic book scene that I posted in Discord that shows Barbara hanging up her cowl for the last time. I think they could have easily shown Batgirl taking on her last case and then finally hanging up her cowl and showing that scene before transitioning into the Killing Joke part. It didn't have to be this. But I don't think it takes away from the importance of this story.
The joke at the end basically represents Batman and joker’s relationship. Listen to it again, but this time with the knowledge that Batman is the inmate that makes the jump across, and joker is the inmate that is too scared to make the jump across. Basically, they are both crazy, but joker is crazier to the point that he is too far gone. Batman laughs along with joker because he gets the message behind the joke and realizes that he and joker are madman chasing one another.
wouldn't it be the opposite? I understand that the prisoner who made the jump was the Joker, who embraced madness, while Batman is afraid to make the jump that the Joker made, despite both being already crazy (both were in a madhouse) this is my interpretation.
@@cosmicdoggo9296 isn't It beautiful? I think the best part of that kind of detail or interpretation is the subjective. Both can be right or wrong, and It get's even better that way
Also when Bruce and Barbra did…THAT I saw this movie in theaters for a one night run and let me tell you the whole audience was shocked by it XP we all gasped and groaned and cringed at it so no no one thought this was a good idea.
From what I understand and from what I've heard, I think it's MEANT to come off as something wrong. I believe it was a quote from Bruce Timm saying that "it's a scene where two characters make a bad decision as noted by the music in said scene, it's not hopeful or uplifting or romantic, it feels off and wrong." I think the main issue is that there wasn't a moment of confirmation of "yeah, what just happened and what you was wrong and shouldn't have happened." Granted I also never really cared for the Bruce Barbara romance being a plot point in the first place. Especially in the DCAU proper when we get to Batman Beyond, I came across a reddit post that pointed out that, ultimately it was a pointless plot thread since it didn't seem to have any bearing on their relationship or general trajectory of why Barb hung up the cape and cowl. Like there wasn't a moment of like "it made things awkward that eventually spiraled into me feeling like it was best to hang up the cape." Plus the general thought that Bruce basically dated the ex of his adopted son. And the scene of him going through his past loves, I understand why Diana wasn't there (because JL and JLU didn't start until after Beyond) but I'm still baffled that Andrea wasn't featured at all. My guess is that they probably didn't think they'd ever address her again by the time said episode rolled around so they didn't have a TNBA style design for her. Although I'd like to headcanon that the Barb and Bruce romance didn't happen at all and instead it was pics of Diana instead of 3 pics of Barb. (Seriously Bruce, 3 pics of Barb and only 1 pic of the others? And not even the one for the plant clone lady who you went so far as to actually marry?)
The joke is supposed to symbolize their endless fight and how they can’t escape it. They know they’re both broken, both crazy and the fight will eventually destroy them, but they can’t/won’t stop. Joker will never try to come back to sanity, it’s too painful, and Batman will never stop his crusade against criminals like Joker. They know they need to stop, but they won’t.
You know, it really is a shame that the first half of this movie is as... off-putting as it is, because, in the second half, when it gets to the Killing Joke part, it's actually really good. It's done really faithfully, almost word-for-word the way it goes in the graphic novel and, by God, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill are at their best here. Especially Hamill, who delivers his Joker lines with the same passion and gravitas as Laurence Olivier or Kenneth Branagh would a Shakespearian soliloquy. Too bad the first half leaves such a bad taste in the mouth, because it ended up making this film almost universally despised. Personally, I ADORE the second half, because that's clearly where all the passion went. EDIT: Also, just to answer your questions about the first half: Bruce's relationship with Barbara has never really been romantic or sexual. There have been hints that maybe they had a fling, but nothing really explicit, it's really more about individual interpretation, rather than the intent of the auteur. As for why the first half was there at all: it was there to pad the running time for a theatrical release. Honestly, not a bad idea, but it was really poorly executed. Maybe if they'd gotten, say, Gail Simone, a female comic book writer who has done wonders with Babs in the past, instead of a male writer (Brian Azzarello) to write the first half, it could have been amazing. (Sidenote: Gail Simone's Twitter account is amazing and anyone reading this should go follow her.)
The whole undressing Barb thing: Imagine, you were forced to watch nude pictures of your own daughter, while also knowing the one who is responsible for the pictures, is the one making you watch them. You know him. He is a full blown monster. If Gordon wasn't awestruck, we probably would have gotten a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!" And you know, it's the uncertainty, that is killing in that regard. It is NOT knowing, if he just undressed her and took pictures. Gordon was not supposed to reconcile, but to be left in the dark, because that is one of the cruelest things, the Joker could think of.
Been confirmed that he just undressed nothing came of it. However can't say for certain if that's true for this movie given the other liberties with Barbara they took
The thing is that when the Joker said that all it takes is one bad day he was wrong. The Joker's whole motive in the story was to prove that anyone could become like him if they experienced "one bad day", but he wasn't able to break Gordon. Jim's ability to keep his sanity and humanity in the face of the trauma inflicted on him by the Joker shows that whoever the Joker was before he became the Joker, the "one bad day" explanation is more than likely just an excuse. He was most likely already a bad person, or at least already mentally disturbed before he fell into the vat of chemicals.
Here's what I think the Joker also said: "Do you know how many times we've come close to world war three over a flock of geese on a computer screen? Do you know what triggered the last world war? An argument over how many telegraph poles Germany owed its war debt creditors! Telegraph poles!" It's an interesting thing to think about.
The joke is supposed to be the long running joke that Batman is actually insane. Jokers joke implies that he and Bruce were escapees together and he was the one who walked the line and Bruce had the flashlight. It's also implied that Batman finally kills Joker as the disappear out of shot (you can hear Jokers laugh cutting out as Batman continues to laugh.) There's more deep stuff into the theory of Batman being insane in "Under the Red Hood special edition"
The joke at the end is moreso a metaphor, the one who is just sane enough to jump across being batman, offers a hopeless solution of being able to walk across his flashlight beam (in reality that being offering joker rehabilitation) and joker knowing he's beyond redemption but still buying into the delusion suggests the light will get turned off while he's crossing, instead of the fact it would never work to begin with. The ending also hints at batman killing the joker, after realizing there is no hope for someone so far gone
@@fynnthefox9078 Are or Aren't, the games made me a Batman fanboy that got me reading lots of his stuff back in 2012.. as an introduction.. to his mentality and stories.. they are perfect.
Also, as for the joke, originally this story was set outside of the main continuity of DC comics, it was supposed to be a non canon side story. And from the interpretations that I've read, people think that it was implied that Batman finally killed the Joker in that scene, but it wasn't explicit and was left for interpretation. But people liked the story a lot and other writers ended up making it canon, and obviously Joker couldn't be killed by batman in the main continuity, so he ended up alive, and Barbara was left paralised and became Oracle, retiring as Batgirl all the way until the New 52, an event that was basically a huge universe retcon to incentivise bringing more readers that upended a lot of stories and made a lot of fan favorite characters vanish for a LONG time, but they did make Barb regain mobility, and made her Batgirl again. Personally I liked her more as Oracle, but she's still great as Batgirl.
That's not true at all. The Killing Joke was ALWAYS canon. The Batgirl Special was published a week BEFORE TKJ & it calls itself in it's own pages "The LAST Batgirl story". & it's also referenced in other comics multiple times in the following months (which means those comics were written/finished before TKJ hit shelves).
Kind of. I remember that a part of the comic where Batman, Gordon, and Dent do some tricky detective work got replaced with Batman and Catwoman beat information out of criminals. Not a fan of that. They also replaced my favorite Poison Ivy design with the more well known look.
No one will fault you for not liking this one; it caught a LOT of flack for the first half. Besides a concession to a few comic writers who really seem to want to make Bruce x Barbara a thing despite how creepy it is to most people, the only purpose I can consider it to serve is creating a parallel with Joker and Batman, showing how Franz makes humiliating and destroying Batgirl his obsession and nearly drives her to kill him. Sadly, I can't recall many graphic novels with Barbara featured majorly in them. Arkham Knight does feature Oracle prominently. It also has some playable Batgirl DLC and there is a 2-parter about her in the animated series, 'Shadow of the Bat'. Maybe try that.
Barb was going after Bruce romantically in the animated series as well, Barb being attracted to Bruce was not new to this movie and originally Batgirl was operating on her own and drawing too much attention to Batman, because people thought he had a partner, which he didn't. He didn't take it well and was harsh/hard on her because she took his symbol without permission, and also because she was putting herself in danger. There was also more conflict between Barb and Dick because of her feelings for Bruce. I honestly thought that Barb and Bruce having a fling was canon and that it did ruin things between her and Dick for a long time, at which point Joker shot Barbara, Dick left her because of the bad feelings between them (Definitely not his best moment) and eventually they got back together???? I think there was even something about Barbara potentially carrying Bruce's child when she was shot by Joker, which caused her to miscarry, which is just terrible on so many levels. Either way, I agree that inserting a new story that focused on Barbara and then making it all about her hunting for a man, pretty much, was not a good idea... I think in the end this movie accomplished 1 thing better than everything else; it made everyone feel really uncomfortable.
You know they could of just remove that Batgirl story. Yes I know that it would of been completely short and all but if they did....they would of focus making the animation more smoother and making the aesthetic and cinematography very close to the source material. I think people would of love that.
@@Narutoanime16g well I guess she's there for the plot. Was the joker's point was that one bad day can make a person insane like him. So basically torturing Gordon by hurting what he love the most and making him go insane. Idk that my interpretation of it
There is a movie in the DC Animated Universe that takes place after S2 of Batman: The Animated Series called Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero, and it features Batgirl heavily. She’s probably the main character next to Batman and Freeze. I’d watch Mask of the Phantasm first though. You can watch that movie at any point since it mostly takes place before the other B:TAS episodes
I personally see no issue with Batman and Batgirl being romantically involved, whether it be canon or not. I feel like I'm the only one who feels that way.
Yeah a lot of people hate this movie because of the first half, and the romance between Batman and Batgirl, given the age gap, and since Batman has always felt more like a father figure, it's like if Batman was gay/ bi and got with Robin, it would just be wrong, same as it is with Barbara imo Also the character bios for 3 out of 4 of the Arkham games say that Oracle used to be Batgirl lol
Barbara is Batgirl before she becomes Oracle. And don’t worry, she almost never has this “connection” to Bruce- almost everyone agrees that this movie’s addition of that first half was entirely unnecessary and uncalled for.
If I remember correctly, the first half was added to get people invested in Barbara so it hurts more when she’s shot, and also to get it to feature length
Yeah the thing that you need to know about the batman au is that the batman batgirl thing is Bruce Tim's wired fanboy ship and we all know it's wired but it's not cannon in most comics
There has been some historical clash with people who have written Batman whether Batgirl is a love interest or a daughter figure. Back in the old goofy TV series, she was a growl woman - ‘girl’ was not used in a youthful way but in the alternative, not-very-post-2010 synonym for woman. But other mediums lean into her youth, making her a sort of surrogate daughter like Robin is a surrogate son. And some don’t seem to realise those things are competing exclusives if you want Batman not to be - well, you noticed it. And most fans are appalled by the idea that Bruce would hook up with the daughter of his best friend with whom he had such a power relationship over, in addition to other reasons.
Batman is incredibly controlling. It’s a constant issue in the Batman and Justice league comics. The Paris Franz situation had more to do with Paris was fixated on her in the way Joker was fixated on Batman. He wanted to force her out of that situation. It’s definitely his way or the highway. He has gone through several partners. Some have died and Bruce tried to prevent that by manipulating and controlling his partners. You have to understand that Bruce is not stable. He also has serious social issues. He is constantly trying to push his family away because he is terrified of losing them, but in the end he needs them, he just won’t admit it.
I disagree that Batman was treating Barbara in a sexist way. He never asked for a Batgirl, especially not one that turned out to be his best friend's daughter. Batman's mind works like a computer. It runs like a well-oiled machine. He didn't raise her and train her like Robin, and technically, he never asked for Robin, either, but he knew if he didn't take him in after the death of his parents his life would be destroyed, and his biggest fear was that he might become like him. As a result, he raises Nightwing, one of the most beloved and respected DC characters, in real life AND in-universe. The moment with her and Batman was a moment of weakness, just like the moment between Jim and Sarah Essen. The touching her face was to show he truly loved and cared for her, not in a sexual way. He regretted what he had done, and understood it was in a moment of weakness where he allowed his Sherlock Holmes mind to stray. Notice Holmes had never been interested in relationships, but swore off women after Irene Adler was able to manipulate him to fall for her in order to perform a heist. Batman, like Holmes, is a computer, but a human one. Sex is meaningless to him. He truly loves Barbara. He just doesn't want to work with her, because he doesn't want her to get hurt.
Thankfully, batman x Batgirl is a very limited concept because it's messed up to think about. The main reason we see it happen is cause of the write bruce timm, though he does a lot of good work like the animated series and it's connected series, he also writes controversial stuff like the first half of this movie
No, Bruce and Barbara's relationship isn't canon in the main DC universe! From what I know, there's only ONE GUY who did this relationship, and he's the one who did this movie, and the Batman Beyond animated series and some comics that related to it, and it is in those. But nowhere in the main DC universe were they ever together to the best of my (admittedly flawed) knowledge!
It's never officially confirmed that this is Joker's canon origin. Even Joker himself floats around the idea that what he's remembering might not be exactly what happened. I personally subscribe to the theory that Joker doesn't even know his own origin. That whatever the traumatic event was that created him was so painful that he's blocked those memories out and simply can't remember who he was before he was the Joker.
It's open to interpterion in the comic that he killed the Joker, but if he didnt that means the Joker was right and the cycle would continue, either way the Joker won in this story.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I also want to highlight the GOOD things that this movie added that was NOT apart of the comics. 1) The end scene. Originally the last scene is simply Batman laughing and credits roll. BUT this movie added a very important scene that stops this from being a fridging story and makes it an Oracle story. Any fan of Oracle loves this particular scene because it is NOT in the comics at all. The logo shown at the end is iconic because it's Oracle's logo. 2) Empathy/emotions. This might just be because of Mark and Kevin and even Tara Strong, but in this movie I feel like you feel the emotions FAR better than in the comics. The lines themselves can be a little bit flat and feel almost cold and twisted. But Mark and Kevin and Tara all really bring this story to life by adding their talented acting. I also really appreciated being able to see the black and gold suit on Batgirl because it's my absolute favorite suit of hers. I wish they'd bring it back. 3) Making it more about Batgirl. I do think this story is a very important Batman/Joker story, but I also appreciate the attempt to make it more about Batgirl. Even though the execution could have been better, I think that because this story is such an important moment for Barbara that it would feel weird if she didn't have more screen time. Even though she's not the center of the story, this act turns this into an Oracle origin story as well as a Joker origin story and I think that's amazing because there's not really that presence in the comics. 4) The adaptation. Ignoring the first part of the movie, the second half is one of the best adaptations in the DC Universe. It's so good that it really does make up for the first half. Seeing Mark and Kevin's dynamics and even Tara's delivery of the Killing Joke moment is so well done that I think some people undersell how good it is because of the first half of the movie. This movie is truly so close to being a perfect adaptation and technically speaking it is a perfect adaptation if we just cut out the first half of the movie. I know it's very easy to dumb this movie down to being a bad/distasteful adaptation, but I do think it's more than that, and it's important to talk about what the movie did RIGHT as much as it is to talk about what it did wrong.
Another thing I appreciate about this comic is the genuine relationship that it acknowledges between Batman and Joker. The way I see it, Joker realized upon first time seeing batman that he must have had a Bad Day as well to dress up like that. And so Batman becomes his sole focus. Gordon might've been sane on his own, but he stayed sane because of Batman. The only way "one bad day" doesn't break you is if you have someone there that understands, that has been through something similar. Yet, Batman was there when the Joker was "born". And so Joker broke halfway: fixating on Batman and also going crazy. Yet the end, the genuine heartfelt "i'm sorry" he shares proves there is still something resembling a person in there. And ironically it might be that tiny bit that remains that focuses the Jokers insanity on the path of destruction that he's been taking all this time... All just headcanon, but I feel like the "one bad day doesn't break you if you have someone that understands" rings weirdly true. But the tragedy of that is that there will always be 1 person left to catch all the people that fall from such a day. And that person makes it his mission to help everyone: Batman.
the joke at the end is a play on the dynamic between bats and the joker batman is the patient that made ot across and wants to shine the light across for him to walk on representing the "rehabilitation", and while we the audience know its imposible the other inmate being joker is more concerned with bats turning the light off or in this case giving up on him halfway.
The point of the start of the movie is to show Barbara falling to the abyss. Of her obsession and the cowl consuming her humanity. Bruce died in the alley with his parents. He lost his humanity to the cowl. He does not want his friends and family to fall into the abyss like him. Dick realized it and that's why he became Nightwing. Jason Todd was more of an antihero th n the others. Barbara quit. Tim Drake was captured and tortured by joker to later become him. In various shows and movies batman's side kicks all face a mom nt where they look into the abyss and realize that Bruce lost his humanity to it. Barbara nearly beating the monster to death was her abyss moment.
the relationship between Bruce and Barbra is not canon. that's just bruce timm being bruce timm. he loves to ship Batman w/ batgirl. since the original comic was short, they had made up a story to make it to the 90 min time limit.
I think you’ll really like the way Batgirl is portrayed in the Harley Quinn series, one of the better tv/movie representations of the character in my personal opinion. In terms of comics batgirl is pretty good in some of the birds of prey comics (of like minds) and I personally really liked batgirl year one and the batgirl of burnside comic run she had which is much lighter in tone :)
The one thing about Joker that is scary is how he is what we all could be, but UNSHACKLED. Free from societal norms, social obligations, wants and needs, fear and judgement. He does not care. Whatever the lengths he has to go through, as long as it gets under Batmans skin, ESPECIALLY if it gets under Batmans skin, it is more than worth it for him. That... complete dedication to his purpose, his peace with that... How he is shackled to that and yet more free than most of us will ever feel... THAT is what scares me about the Joker. He will not shy away from the most disgusting acts in human history (you've read the comic, you know what I'm talking about) if it even makes the Dark Knight flinch for a SECOND.. He is the collection of some of the most deplorable parts of humanity and because of that he is somehow close to all of us... Ironically it is Batman who is most removed from his humanity (Bruce Wayne), which makes them the perfect foil for one another... All in all, The Joker is a MONSTER, but his one bad day speech is still weirdly true and relatable.
Alan Moore on the ending. "..for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway." That Batgirl batman relationship is just Bruce Timm. He ships them so we get subjected to his shipping them. It's not canon.
He doesn't ship them. Bruce Timm never intended it to be a full blown relationship, it was just a one-night stand that both characters regretted, and Timm hates how that scene was depicted in this movie too.
Ok, probably people answered to this already, but (though I´m not a fan of the Killing Joke comic, unpopular opinion ¡, I know) Barbara was the Batgirl since the Adam West tv show back in the 60s, but definetely not the character they made for the movie, and she never dated Bruce, but she had a really strong romance with Dick (Nightwing, the original Robin)
Yeah the first part was way off base. I guess to be fair, the Frank Miller ones he was like that l, bitch slapping Robin and all but it's not general how he's like. Not even how batgirl acts either. It's weird because she was only there for Joker to torment Gordon which just makes the whole thing more sinister in the comic.
Batman and batgirl is not canon at all. It’s just Bruce Timms weird ship with Brian Azzerallo writing a terrible script up until he’s actually copying Alan Moore’s work
As far as I know the Batman batgirl relationship is canon. It’s also eluded to in a series you will later get to know… that series is “Batman Beyond” I don’t remember the exact episode but I believe it is the first introduction of the assassin “Curare”. Barbara Gordon the new commissioner replacing her dad has a heart to heart with Terry the new Batman. I don’t wanna give too much away cuz the convo was quite interesting. If you ever get around to reacting to the Batman beyond series you’ll see it. Dick Grayson had a rough relationship with Bruce and Barbara was one of those reasons. Hope that answers your question.
1. The Batman/Batgirl relationships in the movie is 🤮and I think the writers only put that in to give Batman a stronger attachment to her getting shot. In the comics she was more like part of the family with Batman/Robin because of how long they had been fighting crime together, so the movie had to rush the connection was nice she's still not that well established in that universe and 2. The Joker wanted to try and convince everyone that they can be broken as easily as him. As seen in the end, Jim didn't break and that's what made him so mad and just kinda give up because he realizes that he's just not as strong as some people. In the comics he was still very controlling and had to be in control of the world. The whole reason he fights crime is to eliminate crime through fear.
When it comes to Barbara and Bruce it normally hasn't happened that much throughout the decades. When it comes to Bruce Timm though he always likes to do it in the later animated incarnations that he's a part of because it "feels wrong".
Yeah the thing between Batman and Batgirl is wrong on so many levels, for one Bruce messing around with Barbara in that way is betraying Jim's trust and yeah it's a very messed up power dynamic between Bruce and Barbara so what the hell Bruce ?! 🤦
The only thing I didn't like was the batman and Batgirl hooking up, it was weird 😐 They really ruined that Batgirl's origin story 😒 I will say this Batman is usually overprotective of his sidekicks but not to this degree.
No, he doesn't. It was just meant to be a one time fling, which Dick Grayson found out about and was the main reason he left Gotham. Timm never intended it to be a serious ongoing relationship, he wanted Batman and Barbara to immediately regret what they did. It's the fault of other writers for trying to ship them.
This is a prime example of a clueless straight dude screenwriter who doesn't actually know how to write sexism and misogyny *since he writes it unchecked* . It's just gross how uncritically infantilized and objectified Barbara is, by the criminals and Batman himself. And don't worry; their relationship isn't canon since Batman is literally friends with her father (blegh). Have no idea what Brian Azzarello (the writer) was smoking.
So, Barbara Gordon wasn't the original Batgirl (there was another, Bette Kane, back in the comics in the 1950s, but she's not really relevant). Batgirl was reintroduced in the 60s as Barbara Gordon, in the comics and in the Adam West Batman TV show, and stuck around for a while, but eventually stopped appearing in stories. She'd had an on-again, off-again relationship with Dick Grayson, the original Robin and later Nightwing (which makes this movie version even squickier: Bruce and Barbara together is almost like a dad sleeping with his son's girlfriend). The comic of *The Killing Joke* picks up from that status quo; Barbara used to be Batgirl, but isn't active anymore. She grew up, went to college, moved on. What was intended as a standalone story was adopted into canon, so Barbara's injury and disability were used as the basis of her reinventing herself as Oracle, advising and aiding the Bat-Family, and her own team, the Birds of Prey (initially Black Canary and Huntress). Barbara was Oracle for a long time in the comics, until a reboot in 2011 where she returned to being Batgirl after an experimental procedure to undo her paralysis). Barbara was succeeded as Batgirl by Cassandra Cain (a girl trained as an assassin by her father), and later by Stephanie Brown, who had formerly been the hero Spoiler (starting out to stop her dad, the minor villain Cluemaster). As for other Batgirl stories... Barbara does appear in the animated series, and is a regular character in the final season, as well as in the follow-up series, Batman Beyond. However, Bruce Timm, the same writer who pushed the Bruce/Barbara relationship is also one of the co-creators of the animated series. The ship that only he seems to want doesn't really appear in the show - it's implied a little in a couple of the later animated movies, but never outright stated.
If you want to know this is somewhat canon to Batman Beyond animated series, Bruce is retired and Barbara is taking her deceased father's place as commissioner and married to a government official, but is it canon? The answer was both yes and no.
The problem is you don’t really get the joker. I see you played a few games and maybe read a comic or to but the Joker is literally INSANE. He does things just for shits and giggles. He has no chyll, he just wants to bring chaos to the world and especially his soul mate Batman. His backstory doesn’t really matter anymore when he’s the joker because his humanity is gone. He just the clown prince of crime.
First, you're wrong, and second the whole point of this is for Meg to explore and learn about the DC Universe, of course she's not going to understand an entire character through a few episodes, games, and movies, that's the whole point of character development and character discovery, you learn more about a character as you go throughout the adventure. But also you're wrong about the Joker. Yes, the Joker has done fucked up shit throughout the comic books, movies, etc. but he is not just the essence of chaos, he's a super complex character that changes per writer's needs. The problem is not that Meg "doesn't get the Joker" the problem is that each writer has a different interpretation of who the Joker is. Which by the way, is the whole point of Joker's character. No one understands who the Joker is. Even his origin story changes from comic book to comic book. His alias identities always change too. And the beauty of the Joker is that every single reader will read him differently. And Joker is not the only one who has character changes depending on the writer, every character goes through this from Batman to Superman from Wonder Woman to Green Lantern, no one writes them the same way because they are complex characters. It's why they are such beloved characters. It's why they've lasted so long. The entire DC Universe is filled with characters that are so complex that every writer sees them in different lights and that's okay. The beauty of comics is that every character changes depending on who is playing with them. Sometimes Superman can fly, sometimes he can leap tall buildings, sometimes he's a boy scout, sometimes he's not. It's what makes every store so interesting to read because they evolve over time and they grow. The point is that you don't have to "get" the Joker to enjoy him or have feelings about him. I hate it when people are like "you can't give an opinion until you've read all the books and seen all the movies and seen every episode in the show". Fuck that opinion. The whole point is you get to see the journey of these characters and learn to love or hate them. And some of them you love to hate and others you hate to love. I'm sure Meg's opinions of certain characters will change over time. And that's okay. There is no "problem" with it.
@MegMageReacts this isn't the only time Barbara has been seen having romantic feelings for batman. In the batman the animated series she also is seen having romantic feelings towards batman. Also in the movie mystery of the batwoman Barbara seems to be almost flirting with Bruce in a "playful" manner asking Bruce if she has been replaced. An then in the series batman beyond ( which takes place in the future) there are hints that something might have happened between them. BUT the difference between all of those times and what happened here in this movie is that in all those other times was that batman would respectfully turn her down gently or he would just ignore it. Not like what happened here in this movie 😨
I think the joke references themselves, they are both crazy mental asylum patients, both escaped their confines to wreak havoc outside. And when they get to the gap is where they differ. One has a solution to help the other across though it’s nonsensical (walking over a beam of light), to a normal person they’d call BS to it and that’s why you wouldn’t cross, but to the other patient, he ain’t crossing for the wrong reason: because he doesn’t trust that his friend would let him cross the beam of light. I think all it means is that perhaps either of the two, Batman and Joker have the solution or at least the sincerity to help the other but neither trust each other to do so. Or maybe I’m rambling?
there are multiple Batgirl's but Barbara is the 2nd & most famous Batgirl Bruce & Barbara's relationship is not canon to the comics, it only exists in the animated movie universe & 1 other animated universe (both made by the same guy who gave some kind of excuse that your supposed to hate it because "its her making a mistake") Bruce is at least 10 years older than Barbara (although some universes have her as being much younger & a few even have her as being closer to Bruce's age) Jim is older than Bruce in all universes as well (as seen by the fact he goes grey-haired long before Bruce does) Barbara I think does have a gay friend in the comics, dunno if he's a stereotype or not
I, too, felt like I needed a shower after watching it. It's a messy, uncomfortable narrative and idk how necessary this story was... I guess I'm grateful for it because it gives us plenty to talk about in regard to all the toxicity that the characters put out as a result of their miserable attempts at forming relationships and attachment. Their relationship to themselves and society as well... there's a lot going on and it all sometimes seems to undercut itself ... I'm happy it's not canon but grateful it at least exists lol
There's been different Batgirls, the most well known after Barbara is Cassandra Cain (her Batgirl look definitely is different & pretty cool looking). Though they basically turned the character of Cass full gen Z in Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey movie. They added the unnecessary Batman/Batgirl relationship part (which is the main reason why EVERYBODY hates this movie, why EVERYBODY is so butt hurt of this movie!) because of longer run time. The Killing Joke is pretty much a short story, but the add on doesn't make it better, they were trying to make this more about Bats & Babs, but it doesn't work & yes, even though the sex thing between Batman & Batgirl is out of character & unnecessary, I wasn't butt hurt by it like soooo many other people were! 😜 Considering how EVERYBODY hates that relationship, no, it's definitely not canon.
@@jesselioce In Batman Beyond she wasn't in a wheelchair. Sure in the comics she was able to walk again, but we haven't seen that connection happen yet in this continuity so therefore not really cannon.
Batman and Catwoman work great. Because they are like two independent and sometimes competing forces. Batgirl? No. Not really. Alan Moore is badass but no. Batman is also her mentor. Which makes it weird.
It’s interesting in the killing York and in the joker movie It stated that you can miss his backstory different take every time and this mean even this version can be not sure as it is true version is a true mystery of the jokers backstory ps and The red hood back story thing in this story is of Parcoal make from the 60s
If you are a fan of the batman HUSH graphic novel I will say they did something very similar to the film counterpart. I will not spoil it for you in case you want to see it after reading the graphic novel. But I just don't like that it took creative liberties like it did with the killing joke. That being said I recommend you to watch the long Halloween movie. That did the opposite and actually stayed as true to the source material as it could. It made small changes but they were not changes that betrayed the graphic novel. Another batman film I recommend is Batman: Under the Red Hood.
Batman & Batgirl is just a strange ship thst only Bruce Timm is into. You probably know this alreadly a year on but as a new suscriber I'd figured about any. I believe the Killing Joke Barbara story Bruce Timm & co should have adapted The Last Batgirl Story for it. You can watch a video from Salazar Knight that covers a lot of comics history, i highly recommend it. Really loving this channel & your perspective.
Please erase from your mind the whole Batgirl X Batman thing Bruce dating his son's girlfriend is the creepiest thing ever, and was invented for this movie only
There is o.g comics from older generations where Barbara and Bruce have the same relationship I find it odd for a pupil and a mentor to have such a relationship
i know ive commented this on your patreon but i RLY think you should read oracle: year one. i sent u a message on patreon about it but basically it low key fixes everything sexist about this story
Bruce & Barbara have been mentioned as a couple in several things. Most notably, Batman Beyond. Don't think anyone really cared for it in this movie. Love it or hate it, Barbara becoming the pretty much all knowing cyber genius Oracle, after such a tragedy, gave us a character far superior to Batgirl.
Hi, greedings from overseas.. There, s a Band called,, Killing Joke,, (since 1980.) try song,, Eighties,,.. /.... Or try some strage accent🤔🎸:"Null positiv - wo Rauch ist, ist auch Feuer,, (it,s german,, sad about war.. 🇺🇦) enjoy without understanding,, maybe with German beer 🍺✌️
The easiest explanation for the first half is: Bruce Timm is a creep. Would never have happened with Paul Dini. Probably not with other writer / directors either.
This is basically an adaptation of two comics smooshed together with some added connective tissue. As far as I'm concerned, the Killing Joke comic was a strong execution of an ill conceived idea. It was well written, but shouldn't have been written at all, and shouldn't have been adapted. Even Alan Moore regrets writing it, and I agree. It's a well crafted comic but not a story worth tellig.
Time Code: 25:28 "My question is, is that Barbara-Batman relationship canon?" Answer: Yes. Batman: Killing Joke [2016] explained the "Batman Beyond" [1999 - 2001], series & movie, when Batman-2 learns of their history... and how Nightwing responded when he had learnt of it. Bruce & Barbara's relationship seems out-of-place because you did not watch "Batman Beyond" 1st before watching the movie. 2 attractive people, working side-by-side, for everyday for hours, risking & saving each others lives, constantly... feelings are going to develop.
![COLOMBIA vs. CHILE [4-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 10](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TDjN4W3yy1k/mqdefault.jpg)
Alright, time to break down my thought process.
First, I do think that this movie is important to watch. My ultimate goal is to have you, Meg be able to say that you've watched everything at least in terms of animated content and in the best way possible. I am glad that you did read the comic before watching the movie because it is something to experience sort of on your own time. I understand why people don't like this movie, but I also think that it's not up to me or anyone else to determine whether or not you're going to like or hate a movie. I think that it's okay to react to movies that aren't as well received because it still enables you to voice your thoughts about how the story was presented. I also knew that if you were going to react to this movie, people would have talked about it anyway because it was one of those inevitable things to talk about when it comes to the Killing Joke. And you are getting to the point in the DC Universe and the Arkham games where this story is important especially understanding Oracle's beginning point. The reason why I thought this would be a good time to do this story if at all is simply because you're at the point where the story is important and it at likely would've been spoiled otherwise whether in media or in the comments.
My goal is to ultimately make sure that absolutely nothing is spoiled for you that is the reasoning behind me pushing movies at an optimal time, the watch order that I provided. The story points you're hitting makes some of these kinds of stories inevitable. And I do think that even though this movie isn't great, it really demonstrates not only Mark Hamill and Kevin Conroy's range and dynamics but a very important part of their relationship. And it also demonstrates to you the kind of character Joker and even Batman are. I know not everyone would agree with me pushing this movie, but I also think that I'm never going to say "you can't watch this because I think you'll hate it" because ultimately that's not my call to make, it's yours. And I don't want to take that agency from you. I also think it's important to talk about the imperfect stories that DC has. There are a ton of AMAZING stories in the DC Universe ones that I look forward to having you watch, but in order to get those moments, it's necessary to also see maybe some of the less popular stories just so that you can understand the context and story points people pull from.
I already knew that both the comic and movie are considered controversial in their own rights. Many people did not like the SA/fridging story of Batgirl. Another point that was heavily contested is that in the end scene of the Killing Joke, it's heavily implied that Batman kills the Joker in this story because he's the only one left laughing. This is another point that people find controversial because people believe that Batman should always live up to his no kill rule. The thing is, I don't think Frank Miller ever intended this story to be anything but a standalone story. Not every iteration uses the same origin as Joker and that's because it's not necessary. Some characters like Batman have set and stone origins. Others like Joker and many others have differing origin points.
And you are right, this story is not about Batgirl or Barbara, it's about Joker and Batman and their cruel dynamic and toxic relationship. The movie does try to make this story about Batgirl, but because it's not originally a Batgirl focused story, they do have to make a story from scratch. I think there's a way they could have pulled this off without taking away from the original story. There is a deleted comic book scene that I posted in Discord that shows Barbara hanging up her cowl for the last time. I think they could have easily shown Batgirl taking on her last case and then finally hanging up her cowl and showing that scene before transitioning into the Killing Joke part. It didn't have to be this. But I don't think it takes away from the importance of this story.
YES! No ragrets! Thank you Rubi!
You mean Alan Moore
Alan Moore not Frank Miller
Well reasoned.
The joke at the end basically represents Batman and joker’s relationship. Listen to it again, but this time with the knowledge that Batman is the inmate that makes the jump across, and joker is the inmate that is too scared to make the jump across.
Basically, they are both crazy, but joker is crazier to the point that he is too far gone. Batman laughs along with joker because he gets the message behind the joke and realizes that he and joker are madman chasing one another.
wouldn't it be the opposite? I understand that the prisoner who made the jump was the Joker, who embraced madness, while Batman is afraid to make the jump that the Joker made, despite both being already crazy (both were in a madhouse) this is my interpretation.
@@MkThunderson yup, you're right, it's the other way around, and the prison represents the "prison" that is sanity
@@MkThunderson i belive it is both atleast it can be seen in both ways
@@cosmicdoggo9296 isn't It beautiful? I think the best part of that kind of detail or interpretation is the subjective. Both can be right or wrong, and It get's even better that way
not to mention that there is a theory that batman killed joker at the end, thats why he kept laughing and the joker stopped.
Also when Bruce and Barbra did…THAT I saw this movie in theaters for a one night run and let me tell you the whole audience was shocked by it XP we all gasped and groaned and cringed at it so no no one thought this was a good idea.
I watch it at San Diego Comic con They shocked and gasp as well.
@@jessiegreen619 I don’t think anyone does
@@jessiegreen619 can confirm
everybody loved it
From what I understand and from what I've heard, I think it's MEANT to come off as something wrong. I believe it was a quote from Bruce Timm saying that "it's a scene where two characters make a bad decision as noted by the music in said scene, it's not hopeful or uplifting or romantic, it feels off and wrong." I think the main issue is that there wasn't a moment of confirmation of "yeah, what just happened and what you was wrong and shouldn't have happened."
Granted I also never really cared for the Bruce Barbara romance being a plot point in the first place. Especially in the DCAU proper when we get to Batman Beyond, I came across a reddit post that pointed out that, ultimately it was a pointless plot thread since it didn't seem to have any bearing on their relationship or general trajectory of why Barb hung up the cape and cowl. Like there wasn't a moment of like "it made things awkward that eventually spiraled into me feeling like it was best to hang up the cape." Plus the general thought that Bruce basically dated the ex of his adopted son.
And the scene of him going through his past loves, I understand why Diana wasn't there (because JL and JLU didn't start until after Beyond) but I'm still baffled that Andrea wasn't featured at all. My guess is that they probably didn't think they'd ever address her again by the time said episode rolled around so they didn't have a TNBA style design for her. Although I'd like to headcanon that the Barb and Bruce romance didn't happen at all and instead it was pics of Diana instead of 3 pics of Barb. (Seriously Bruce, 3 pics of Barb and only 1 pic of the others? And not even the one for the plant clone lady who you went so far as to actually marry?)
The joke is supposed to symbolize their endless fight and how they can’t escape it. They know they’re both broken, both crazy and the fight will eventually destroy them, but they can’t/won’t stop. Joker will never try to come back to sanity, it’s too painful, and Batman will never stop his crusade against criminals like Joker. They know they need to stop, but they won’t.
“Is that canon?” Short answer: no. Long answer: NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO
It technically is cuz evey comics after this they use it but since rebirth they’re trying to make it as vague as possible for SOME reason 🤦♀️
@@sharpaycutie2 they mean the Batgirl/Batman thing
Alan Moore declared it to be cannon. DC had other plans
@@Erebus008 the whole storyline
It's not great
11:20 How everyone felt during THAT scene .
Including Bruce Timm. He hates it too.
I tried so hard not to get a boner.
You know, it really is a shame that the first half of this movie is as... off-putting as it is, because, in the second half, when it gets to the Killing Joke part, it's actually really good. It's done really faithfully, almost word-for-word the way it goes in the graphic novel and, by God, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill are at their best here. Especially Hamill, who delivers his Joker lines with the same passion and gravitas as Laurence Olivier or Kenneth Branagh would a Shakespearian soliloquy. Too bad the first half leaves such a bad taste in the mouth, because it ended up making this film almost universally despised. Personally, I ADORE the second half, because that's clearly where all the passion went.
EDIT: Also, just to answer your questions about the first half: Bruce's relationship with Barbara has never really been romantic or sexual. There have been hints that maybe they had a fling, but nothing really explicit, it's really more about individual interpretation, rather than the intent of the auteur. As for why the first half was there at all: it was there to pad the running time for a theatrical release. Honestly, not a bad idea, but it was really poorly executed. Maybe if they'd gotten, say, Gail Simone, a female comic book writer who has done wonders with Babs in the past, instead of a male writer (Brian Azzarello) to write the first half, it could have been amazing.
(Sidenote: Gail Simone's Twitter account is amazing and anyone reading this should go follow her.)
The 2nd half is magnificent
The whole undressing Barb thing: Imagine, you were forced to watch nude pictures of your own daughter, while also knowing the one who is responsible for the pictures, is the one making you watch them. You know him. He is a full blown monster. If Gordon wasn't awestruck, we probably would have gotten a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!" And you know, it's the uncertainty, that is killing in that regard. It is NOT knowing, if he just undressed her and took pictures. Gordon was not supposed to reconcile, but to be left in the dark, because that is one of the cruelest things, the Joker could think of.
Been confirmed that he just undressed nothing came of it. However can't say for certain if that's true for this movie given the other liberties with Barbara they took
The thing is that when the Joker said that all it takes is one bad day he was wrong. The Joker's whole motive in the story was to prove that anyone could become like him if they experienced "one bad day", but he wasn't able to break Gordon. Jim's ability to keep his sanity and humanity in the face of the trauma inflicted on him by the Joker shows that whoever the Joker was before he became the Joker, the "one bad day" explanation is more than likely just an excuse. He was most likely already a bad person, or at least already mentally disturbed before he fell into the vat of chemicals.
Here's what I think the Joker also said: "Do you know how many times we've come close to world war three over a flock of geese on a computer screen? Do you know what triggered the last world war? An argument over how many telegraph poles Germany owed its war debt creditors! Telegraph poles!"
It's an interesting thing to think about.
The joke is supposed to be the long running joke that Batman is actually insane. Jokers joke implies that he and Bruce were escapees together and he was the one who walked the line and Bruce had the flashlight. It's also implied that Batman finally kills Joker as the disappear out of shot (you can hear Jokers laugh cutting out as Batman continues to laugh.)
There's more deep stuff into the theory of Batman being insane in "Under the Red Hood special edition"
The joke at the end is moreso a metaphor, the one who is just sane enough to jump across being batman, offers a hopeless solution of being able to walk across his flashlight beam (in reality that being offering joker rehabilitation) and joker knowing he's beyond redemption but still buying into the delusion suggests the light will get turned off while he's crossing, instead of the fact it would never work to begin with. The ending also hints at batman killing the joker, after realizing there is no hope for someone so far gone
Barbara is always Batgirl, yes. That's why when you played Origins she was helping you and stuff
@@fynnthefox9078 Are or Aren't, the games made me a Batman fanboy that got me reading lots of his stuff back in 2012.. as an introduction.. to his mentality and stories.. they are perfect.
Also, as for the joke, originally this story was set outside of the main continuity of DC comics, it was supposed to be a non canon side story. And from the interpretations that I've read, people think that it was implied that Batman finally killed the Joker in that scene, but it wasn't explicit and was left for interpretation. But people liked the story a lot and other writers ended up making it canon, and obviously Joker couldn't be killed by batman in the main continuity, so he ended up alive, and Barbara was left paralised and became Oracle, retiring as Batgirl all the way until the New 52, an event that was basically a huge universe retcon to incentivise bringing more readers that upended a lot of stories and made a lot of fan favorite characters vanish for a LONG time, but they did make Barb regain mobility, and made her Batgirl again. Personally I liked her more as Oracle, but she's still great as Batgirl.
That's not true at all. The Killing Joke was ALWAYS canon. The Batgirl Special was published a week BEFORE TKJ & it calls itself in it's own pages "The LAST Batgirl story". & it's also referenced in other comics multiple times in the following months (which means those comics were written/finished before TKJ hit shelves).
I'm so glad you saw through all of the bs with the first half of this movie 😂
The Long Halloween animated movie is a pretty damn great adaptation of the comic book. Highly recommend watching it.
Kind of. I remember that a part of the comic where Batman, Gordon, and Dent do some tricky detective work got replaced with Batman and Catwoman beat information out of criminals. Not a fan of that. They also replaced my favorite Poison Ivy design with the more well known look.
No one will fault you for not liking this one; it caught a LOT of flack for the first half. Besides a concession to a few comic writers who really seem to want to make Bruce x Barbara a thing despite how creepy it is to most people, the only purpose I can consider it to serve is creating a parallel with Joker and Batman, showing how Franz makes humiliating and destroying Batgirl his obsession and nearly drives her to kill him. Sadly, I can't recall many graphic novels with Barbara featured majorly in them. Arkham Knight does feature Oracle prominently. It also has some playable Batgirl DLC and there is a 2-parter about her in the animated series, 'Shadow of the Bat'. Maybe try that.
Barb was going after Bruce romantically in the animated series as well, Barb being attracted to Bruce was not new to this movie and originally Batgirl was operating on her own and drawing too much attention to Batman, because people thought he had a partner, which he didn't. He didn't take it well and was harsh/hard on her because she took his symbol without permission, and also because she was putting herself in danger.
There was also more conflict between Barb and Dick because of her feelings for Bruce. I honestly thought that Barb and Bruce having a fling was canon and that it did ruin things between her and Dick for a long time, at which point Joker shot Barbara, Dick left her because of the bad feelings between them (Definitely not his best moment) and eventually they got back together???? I think there was even something about Barbara potentially carrying Bruce's child when she was shot by Joker, which caused her to miscarry, which is just terrible on so many levels. Either way, I agree that inserting a new story that focused on Barbara and then making it all about her hunting for a man, pretty much, was not a good idea...
I think in the end this movie accomplished 1 thing better than everything else; it made everyone feel really uncomfortable.
Batman also has his cousin Batwoman (Kate Kane), Batwing, Spoiler, Azrael and even a dog name Ace the Bat-Hound.
If you skip everything until Batman goes into Arkham to visit Joker, it’s a great adaptation. The rest from the beginning…in my head it never happened
You know they could of just remove that Batgirl story. Yes I know that it would of been completely short and all but if they did....they would of focus making the animation more smoother and making the aesthetic and cinematography very close to the source material. I think people would of love that.
@@Narutoanime16g well I guess she's there for the plot. Was the joker's point was that one bad day can make a person insane like him. So basically torturing Gordon by hurting what he love the most and making him go insane. Idk that my interpretation of it
There is a movie in the DC Animated Universe that takes place after S2 of Batman: The Animated Series called Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero, and it features Batgirl heavily. She’s probably the main character next to Batman and Freeze. I’d watch Mask of the Phantasm first though. You can watch that movie at any point since it mostly takes place before the other B:TAS episodes
I personally see no issue with Batman and Batgirl being romantically involved, whether it be canon or not. I feel like I'm the only one who feels that way.
Yeah a lot of people hate this movie because of the first half, and the romance between Batman and Batgirl, given the age gap, and since Batman has always felt more like a father figure, it's like if Batman was gay/ bi and got with Robin, it would just be wrong, same as it is with Barbara imo
Also the character bios for 3 out of 4 of the Arkham games say that Oracle used to be Batgirl lol
Barbara is Batgirl before she becomes Oracle. And don’t worry, she almost never has this “connection” to Bruce- almost everyone agrees that this movie’s addition of that first half was entirely unnecessary and uncalled for.
I actually got the movie on blu-ray and it was awesome ❤
«Is that cannon?»
In «Batman Beyond», yes. In comic books - no.
That monologue from Joker is insanely good
The first part was to make things more personal for batman. He's always kept people at a distance the one time he let someone in they get hurt.
Why would anyone think joker is above doing what he did to Barbara and Jim.
If I remember correctly, the first half was added to get people invested in Barbara so it hurts more when she’s shot, and also to get it to feature length
Yeah the thing that you need to know about the batman au is that the batman batgirl thing is Bruce Tim's wired fanboy ship and we all know it's wired but it's not cannon in most comics
There has been some historical clash with people who have written Batman whether Batgirl is a love interest or a daughter figure. Back in the old goofy TV series, she was a growl woman - ‘girl’ was not used in a youthful way but in the alternative, not-very-post-2010 synonym for woman.
But other mediums lean into her youth, making her a sort of surrogate daughter like Robin is a surrogate son. And some don’t seem to realise those things are competing exclusives if you want Batman not to be - well, you noticed it.
And most fans are appalled by the idea that Bruce would hook up with the daughter of his best friend with whom he had such a power relationship over, in addition to other reasons.
Batman is incredibly controlling. It’s a constant issue in the Batman and Justice league comics. The Paris Franz situation had more to do with Paris was fixated on her in the way Joker was fixated on Batman. He wanted to force her out of that situation. It’s definitely his way or the highway. He has gone through several partners. Some have died and Bruce tried to prevent that by manipulating and controlling his partners. You have to understand that Bruce is not stable. He also has serious social issues. He is constantly trying to push his family away because he is terrified of losing them, but in the end he needs them, he just won’t admit it.
I disagree that Batman was treating Barbara in a sexist way. He never asked for a Batgirl, especially not one that turned out to be his best friend's daughter. Batman's mind works like a computer. It runs like a well-oiled machine. He didn't raise her and train her like Robin, and technically, he never asked for Robin, either, but he knew if he didn't take him in after the death of his parents his life would be destroyed, and his biggest fear was that he might become like him. As a result, he raises Nightwing, one of the most beloved and respected DC characters, in real life AND in-universe.
The moment with her and Batman was a moment of weakness, just like the moment between Jim and Sarah Essen. The touching her face was to show he truly loved and cared for her, not in a sexual way. He regretted what he had done, and understood it was in a moment of weakness where he allowed his Sherlock Holmes mind to stray. Notice Holmes had never been interested in relationships, but swore off women after Irene Adler was able to manipulate him to fall for her in order to perform a heist.
Batman, like Holmes, is a computer, but a human one. Sex is meaningless to him. He truly loves Barbara. He just doesn't want to work with her, because he doesn't want her to get hurt.
Thankfully, batman x Batgirl is a very limited concept because it's messed up to think about. The main reason we see it happen is cause of the write bruce timm, though he does a lot of good work like the animated series and it's connected series, he also writes controversial stuff like the first half of this movie
No, Bruce and Barbara's relationship isn't canon in the main DC universe! From what I know, there's only ONE GUY who did this relationship, and he's the one who did this movie, and the Batman Beyond animated series and some comics that related to it, and it is in those. But nowhere in the main DC universe were they ever together to the best of my (admittedly flawed) knowledge!
It's never officially confirmed that this is Joker's canon origin. Even Joker himself floats around the idea that what he's remembering might not be exactly what happened.
I personally subscribe to the theory that Joker doesn't even know his own origin. That whatever the traumatic event was that created him was so painful that he's blocked those memories out and simply can't remember who he was before he was the Joker.
It's open to interpterion in the comic that he killed the Joker, but if he didnt that means the Joker was right and the cycle would continue, either way the Joker won in this story.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I also want to highlight the GOOD things that this movie added that was NOT apart of the comics.
1) The end scene. Originally the last scene is simply Batman laughing and credits roll. BUT this movie added a very important scene that stops this from being a fridging story and makes it an Oracle story. Any fan of Oracle loves this particular scene because it is NOT in the comics at all. The logo shown at the end is iconic because it's Oracle's logo.
2) Empathy/emotions. This might just be because of Mark and Kevin and even Tara Strong, but in this movie I feel like you feel the emotions FAR better than in the comics. The lines themselves can be a little bit flat and feel almost cold and twisted. But Mark and Kevin and Tara all really bring this story to life by adding their talented acting. I also really appreciated being able to see the black and gold suit on Batgirl because it's my absolute favorite suit of hers. I wish they'd bring it back.
3) Making it more about Batgirl. I do think this story is a very important Batman/Joker story, but I also appreciate the attempt to make it more about Batgirl. Even though the execution could have been better, I think that because this story is such an important moment for Barbara that it would feel weird if she didn't have more screen time. Even though she's not the center of the story, this act turns this into an Oracle origin story as well as a Joker origin story and I think that's amazing because there's not really that presence in the comics.
4) The adaptation. Ignoring the first part of the movie, the second half is one of the best adaptations in the DC Universe. It's so good that it really does make up for the first half. Seeing Mark and Kevin's dynamics and even Tara's delivery of the Killing Joke moment is so well done that I think some people undersell how good it is because of the first half of the movie. This movie is truly so close to being a perfect adaptation and technically speaking it is a perfect adaptation if we just cut out the first half of the movie.
I know it's very easy to dumb this movie down to being a bad/distasteful adaptation, but I do think it's more than that, and it's important to talk about what the movie did RIGHT as much as it is to talk about what it did wrong.
Another thing I appreciate about this comic is the genuine relationship that it acknowledges between Batman and Joker. The way I see it, Joker realized upon first time seeing batman that he must have had a Bad Day as well to dress up like that. And so Batman becomes his sole focus. Gordon might've been sane on his own, but he stayed sane because of Batman. The only way "one bad day" doesn't break you is if you have someone there that understands, that has been through something similar. Yet, Batman was there when the Joker was "born". And so Joker broke halfway: fixating on Batman and also going crazy. Yet the end, the genuine heartfelt "i'm sorry" he shares proves there is still something resembling a person in there. And ironically it might be that tiny bit that remains that focuses the Jokers insanity on the path of destruction that he's been taking all this time... All just headcanon, but I feel like the "one bad day doesn't break you if you have someone that understands" rings weirdly true. But the tragedy of that is that there will always be 1 person left to catch all the people that fall from such a day. And that person makes it his mission to help everyone: Batman.
the joke at the end is a play on the dynamic between bats and the joker batman is the patient that made ot across and wants to shine the light across for him to walk on representing the "rehabilitation", and while we the audience know its imposible the other inmate being joker is more concerned with bats turning the light off or in this case giving up on him halfway.
YOUR CHAIR LOOKS BREATHTAKING ❤️
Legend
Just a small town girl
Livin' in a lonely world
She took the midnight train going anywhere🎤🎶
The point of the start of the movie is to show Barbara falling to the abyss. Of her obsession and the cowl consuming her humanity. Bruce died in the alley with his parents. He lost his humanity to the cowl. He does not want his friends and family to fall into the abyss like him.
Dick realized it and that's why he became Nightwing. Jason Todd was more of an antihero th n the others. Barbara quit. Tim Drake was captured and tortured by joker to later become him.
In various shows and movies batman's side kicks all face a mom nt where they look into the abyss and realize that Bruce lost his humanity to it.
Barbara nearly beating the monster to death was her abyss moment.
the relationship between Bruce and Barbra is not canon. that's just bruce timm being bruce timm. he loves to ship Batman w/ batgirl. since the original comic was short, they had made up a story to make it to the 90 min time limit.
I think you’ll really like the way Batgirl is portrayed in the Harley Quinn series, one of the better tv/movie representations of the character in my personal opinion. In terms of comics batgirl is pretty good in some of the birds of prey comics (of like minds) and I personally really liked batgirl year one and the batgirl of burnside comic run she had which is much lighter in tone :)
The one thing about Joker that is scary is how he is what we all could be, but UNSHACKLED. Free from societal norms, social obligations, wants and needs, fear and judgement. He does not care. Whatever the lengths he has to go through, as long as it gets under Batmans skin, ESPECIALLY if it gets under Batmans skin, it is more than worth it for him. That... complete dedication to his purpose, his peace with that... How he is shackled to that and yet more free than most of us will ever feel... THAT is what scares me about the Joker. He will not shy away from the most disgusting acts in human history (you've read the comic, you know what I'm talking about) if it even makes the Dark Knight flinch for a SECOND.. He is the collection of some of the most deplorable parts of humanity and because of that he is somehow close to all of us... Ironically it is Batman who is most removed from his humanity (Bruce Wayne), which makes them the perfect foil for one another... All in all, The Joker is a MONSTER, but his one bad day speech is still weirdly true and relatable.
Alan Moore on the ending.
"..for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway."
That Batgirl batman relationship is just Bruce Timm. He ships them so we get subjected to his shipping them. It's not canon.
He doesn't ship them. Bruce Timm never intended it to be a full blown relationship, it was just a one-night stand that both characters regretted, and Timm hates how that scene was depicted in this movie too.
Ok, probably people answered to this already, but (though I´m not a fan of the Killing Joke comic, unpopular opinion ¡, I know) Barbara was the Batgirl since the Adam West tv show back in the 60s, but definetely not the character they made for the movie, and she never dated Bruce, but she had a really strong romance with Dick (Nightwing, the original Robin)
Love your reaction i hope you watch mask of phantasm in the future all love to you 🙏🏾🙏🏾
Yeah the first part was way off base. I guess to be fair, the Frank Miller ones he was like that l, bitch slapping Robin and all but it's not general how he's like. Not even how batgirl acts either. It's weird because she was only there for Joker to torment Gordon which just makes the whole thing more sinister in the comic.
Batman and batgirl is not canon at all. It’s just Bruce Timms weird ship with Brian Azzerallo writing a terrible script up until he’s actually copying Alan Moore’s work
As far as I know the Batman batgirl relationship is canon. It’s also eluded to in a series you will later get to know… that series is “Batman Beyond” I don’t remember the exact episode but I believe it is the first introduction of the assassin “Curare”. Barbara Gordon the new commissioner replacing her dad has a heart to heart with Terry the new Batman. I don’t wanna give too much away cuz the convo was quite interesting. If you ever get around to reacting to the Batman beyond series you’ll see it. Dick Grayson had a rough relationship with Bruce and Barbara was one of those reasons. Hope that answers your question.
1. The Batman/Batgirl relationships in the movie is 🤮and I think the writers only put that in to give Batman a stronger attachment to her getting shot. In the comics she was more like part of the family with Batman/Robin because of how long they had been fighting crime together, so the movie had to rush the connection was nice she's still not that well established in that universe and 2. The Joker wanted to try and convince everyone that they can be broken as easily as him. As seen in the end, Jim didn't break and that's what made him so mad and just kinda give up because he realizes that he's just not as strong as some people.
In the comics he was still very controlling and had to be in control of the world. The whole reason he fights crime is to eliminate crime through fear.
When it comes to Barbara and Bruce it normally hasn't happened that much throughout the decades. When it comes to Bruce Timm though he always likes to do it in the later animated incarnations that he's a part of because it "feels wrong".
Yeah the thing between Batman and Batgirl is wrong on so many levels, for one Bruce messing around with Barbara in that way is betraying Jim's trust and yeah it's a very messed up power dynamic between Bruce and Barbara so what the hell Bruce ?! 🤦
The only thing I didn't like was the batman and Batgirl hooking up, it was weird 😐
They really ruined that Batgirl's origin story 😒
I will say this Batman is usually overprotective of his sidekicks but not to this degree.
Barbra and Batman have no relationship but unfortunately the animated series is the only Batman media that heavily implies that they had one
That's because Bruce Timm (one of the producers/writers of BTAS) has some weird fetish with Babs and Bats having sex and being a couple.
No, he doesn't. It was just meant to be a one time fling, which Dick Grayson found out about and was the main reason he left Gotham. Timm never intended it to be a serious ongoing relationship, he wanted Batman and Barbara to immediately regret what they did. It's the fault of other writers for trying to ship them.
This is a prime example of a clueless straight dude screenwriter who doesn't actually know how to write sexism and misogyny *since he writes it unchecked* . It's just gross how uncritically infantilized and objectified Barbara is, by the criminals and Batman himself. And don't worry; their relationship isn't canon since Batman is literally friends with her father (blegh). Have no idea what Brian Azzarello (the writer) was smoking.
So, Barbara Gordon wasn't the original Batgirl (there was another, Bette Kane, back in the comics in the 1950s, but she's not really relevant). Batgirl was reintroduced in the 60s as Barbara Gordon, in the comics and in the Adam West Batman TV show, and stuck around for a while, but eventually stopped appearing in stories. She'd had an on-again, off-again relationship with Dick Grayson, the original Robin and later Nightwing (which makes this movie version even squickier: Bruce and Barbara together is almost like a dad sleeping with his son's girlfriend).
The comic of *The Killing Joke* picks up from that status quo; Barbara used to be Batgirl, but isn't active anymore. She grew up, went to college, moved on.
What was intended as a standalone story was adopted into canon, so Barbara's injury and disability were used as the basis of her reinventing herself as Oracle, advising and aiding the Bat-Family, and her own team, the Birds of Prey (initially Black Canary and Huntress). Barbara was Oracle for a long time in the comics, until a reboot in 2011 where she returned to being Batgirl after an experimental procedure to undo her paralysis).
Barbara was succeeded as Batgirl by Cassandra Cain (a girl trained as an assassin by her father), and later by Stephanie Brown, who had formerly been the hero Spoiler (starting out to stop her dad, the minor villain Cluemaster).
As for other Batgirl stories... Barbara does appear in the animated series, and is a regular character in the final season, as well as in the follow-up series, Batman Beyond. However, Bruce Timm, the same writer who pushed the Bruce/Barbara relationship is also one of the co-creators of the animated series. The ship that only he seems to want doesn't really appear in the show - it's implied a little in a couple of the later animated movies, but never outright stated.
I was 12 when i watched this on Netflix, i skipped all the batgirl stuff at the beginning so i could see the joker stuff 😂
MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU 🖖
16:10 Because his goal was to drive Jim Gordon mad, and showing the pictures of his daughter was part of the process.
When you get to Arkham Knight soon, there is DLC where you can play as Batgirl. She's handled much better there.
You've gotta check out Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. Imo one of the best mark Hamill performances ever
If you want to know this is somewhat canon to Batman Beyond animated series, Bruce is retired and Barbara is taking her deceased father's place as commissioner and married to a government official, but is it canon? The answer was both yes and no.
The problem is you don’t really get the joker. I see you played a few games and maybe read a comic or to but the Joker is literally INSANE. He does things just for shits and giggles. He has no chyll, he just wants to bring chaos to the world and especially his soul mate Batman. His backstory doesn’t really matter anymore when he’s the joker because his humanity is gone. He just the clown prince of crime.
First, you're wrong, and second the whole point of this is for Meg to explore and learn about the DC Universe, of course she's not going to understand an entire character through a few episodes, games, and movies, that's the whole point of character development and character discovery, you learn more about a character as you go throughout the adventure. But also you're wrong about the Joker.
Yes, the Joker has done fucked up shit throughout the comic books, movies, etc. but he is not just the essence of chaos, he's a super complex character that changes per writer's needs. The problem is not that Meg "doesn't get the Joker" the problem is that each writer has a different interpretation of who the Joker is. Which by the way, is the whole point of Joker's character. No one understands who the Joker is. Even his origin story changes from comic book to comic book.
His alias identities always change too. And the beauty of the Joker is that every single reader will read him differently. And Joker is not the only one who has character changes depending on the writer, every character goes through this from Batman to Superman from Wonder Woman to Green Lantern, no one writes them the same way because they are complex characters. It's why they are such beloved characters. It's why they've lasted so long.
The entire DC Universe is filled with characters that are so complex that every writer sees them in different lights and that's okay. The beauty of comics is that every character changes depending on who is playing with them. Sometimes Superman can fly, sometimes he can leap tall buildings, sometimes he's a boy scout, sometimes he's not. It's what makes every store so interesting to read because they evolve over time and they grow.
The point is that you don't have to "get" the Joker to enjoy him or have feelings about him.
I hate it when people are like "you can't give an opinion until you've read all the books and seen all the movies and seen every episode in the show". Fuck that opinion. The whole point is you get to see the journey of these characters and learn to love or hate them. And some of them you love to hate and others you hate to love. I'm sure Meg's opinions of certain characters will change over time. And that's okay. There is no "problem" with it.
Barbra was always batgirl. It’s not until joker paralyzed her that turned her into Oracle
@MegMageReacts this isn't the only time Barbara has been seen having romantic feelings for batman. In the batman the animated series she also is seen having romantic feelings towards batman. Also in the movie mystery of the batwoman Barbara seems to be almost flirting with Bruce in a "playful" manner asking Bruce if she has been replaced.
An then in the series batman beyond ( which takes place in the future) there are hints that something might have happened between them.
BUT the difference between all of those times and what happened here in this movie is that in all those other times was that batman would respectfully turn her down gently or he would just ignore it. Not like what happened here in this movie 😨
I think the joke references themselves, they are both crazy mental asylum patients, both escaped their confines to wreak havoc outside. And when they get to the gap is where they differ. One has a solution to help the other across though it’s nonsensical (walking over a beam of light), to a normal person they’d call BS to it and that’s why you wouldn’t cross, but to the other patient, he ain’t crossing for the wrong reason: because he doesn’t trust that his friend would let him cross the beam of light.
I think all it means is that perhaps either of the two, Batman and Joker have the solution or at least the sincerity to help the other but neither trust each other to do so.
Or maybe I’m rambling?
The Barbara Bruce relationship is Canon, in the animated series continuity
there are multiple Batgirl's but Barbara is the 2nd & most famous Batgirl
Bruce & Barbara's relationship is not canon to the comics, it only exists in the animated movie universe & 1 other animated universe (both made by the same guy who gave some kind of excuse that your supposed to hate it because "its her making a mistake")
Bruce is at least 10 years older than Barbara (although some universes have her as being much younger & a few even have her as being closer to Bruce's age) Jim is older than Bruce in all universes as well (as seen by the fact he goes grey-haired long before Bruce does)
Barbara I think does have a gay friend in the comics, dunno if he's a stereotype or not
You should read batgirl year one, birds of prey and batgirl new 52 they are really great Barbara stories
I, too, felt like I needed a shower after watching it. It's a messy, uncomfortable narrative and idk how necessary this story was... I guess I'm grateful for it because it gives us plenty to talk about in regard to all the toxicity that the characters put out as a result of their miserable attempts at forming relationships and attachment. Their relationship to themselves and society as well... there's a lot going on and it all sometimes seems to undercut itself ... I'm happy it's not canon but grateful it at least exists lol
There's been different Batgirls, the most well known after Barbara is Cassandra Cain (her Batgirl look definitely is different & pretty cool looking). Though they basically turned the character of Cass full gen Z in Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey movie.
They added the unnecessary Batman/Batgirl relationship part (which is the main reason why EVERYBODY hates this movie, why EVERYBODY is so butt hurt of this movie!) because of longer run time. The Killing Joke is pretty much a short story, but the add on doesn't make it better, they were trying to make this more about Bats & Babs, but it doesn't work & yes, even though the sex thing between Batman & Batgirl is out of character & unnecessary, I wasn't butt hurt by it like soooo many other people were! 😜
Considering how EVERYBODY hates that relationship, no, it's definitely not canon.
But it is. It's always been implied at some point. Hell in batman beyond return of of the joker, barb flat-out said so to Terry
@@jesselioce In Batman Beyond she wasn't in a wheelchair. Sure in the comics she was able to walk again, but we haven't seen that connection happen yet in this continuity so therefore not really cannon.
Cap
Batman and Catwoman work great. Because they are like two independent and sometimes competing forces. Batgirl? No. Not really. Alan Moore is badass but no. Batman is also her mentor. Which makes it weird.
The Batman x Batgirl fling wasn't in Alan Moore's original, it was invented for the movie.
October 13th??? Tomorrow? Nice 😂
You should read “Arkham Asylum A Serious House On Serious Earth”, it’s the comic Arkham Asylum the game is based on
oracle: year one is a must read
If I remember correctly, Bruce Timm shipped Batman and Batgirl
I have the comic and this is still my favourite of Batman comics :")
It’s interesting in the killing York and in the joker movie It stated that you can miss his backstory different take every time and this mean even this version can be not sure as it is true version is a true mystery of the jokers backstory ps and The red hood back story thing in this story is of Parcoal make from the 60s
Barbara's most iconic and canonical lover is Richard Grayson (The first Robin/Nightwing) not this bullshit.
If you are a fan of the batman HUSH graphic novel I will say they did something very similar to the film counterpart. I will not spoil it for you in case you want to see it after reading the graphic novel. But I just don't like that it took creative liberties like it did with the killing joke. That being said I recommend you to watch the long Halloween movie. That did the opposite and actually stayed as true to the source material as it could. It made small changes but they were not changes that betrayed the graphic novel. Another batman film I recommend is Batman: Under the Red Hood.
"is it canon?"
answering for DCAU:
this storyline? nope.
the Barbara - Bruce relationship? yep.
14:40 - "What was the point of the first part?"
To justify its already pathetic 77 minutes of screen time. Yeah....this movie is a piece of shit.
Batman & Batgirl is just a strange ship thst only Bruce Timm is into.
You probably know this alreadly a year on but as a new suscriber I'd figured about any.
I believe the Killing Joke Barbara story Bruce Timm & co should have adapted The Last Batgirl Story for it. You can watch a video from Salazar Knight that covers a lot of comics history, i highly recommend it. Really loving this channel & your perspective.
BTW how old was barbra in this.
Please erase from your mind the whole Batgirl X Batman thing
Bruce dating his son's girlfriend is the creepiest thing ever, and was invented for this movie only
Sadly it wasn't just in this movie but in the Bruce Timm universe too.
under the red hood is my favorite I hope you watch it soon
Joker has killed a bunch of kids and Gordon's wife.
There is o.g comics from older generations where Barbara and Bruce have the same relationship I find it odd for a pupil and a mentor to have such a relationship
i know ive commented this on your patreon but i RLY think you should read oracle: year one. i sent u a message on patreon about it but basically it low key fixes everything sexist about this story
Bruce & Barbara have been mentioned as a couple in several things. Most notably, Batman Beyond. Don't think anyone really cared for it in this movie. Love it or hate it, Barbara becoming the pretty much all knowing cyber genius Oracle, after such a tragedy, gave us a character far superior to Batgirl.
Letsss gooooo Batman 💜💜
Hi, greedings from overseas.. There, s a Band called,, Killing Joke,, (since 1980.) try song,, Eighties,,.. /.... Or try some strage accent🤔🎸:"Null positiv - wo Rauch ist, ist auch Feuer,, (it,s german,, sad about war.. 🇺🇦) enjoy without understanding,, maybe with German beer 🍺✌️
The easiest explanation for the first half is: Bruce Timm is a creep. Would never have happened with Paul Dini. Probably not with other writer / directors either.
This is basically an adaptation of two comics smooshed together with some added connective tissue.
As far as I'm concerned, the Killing Joke comic was a strong execution of an ill conceived idea. It was well written, but shouldn't have been written at all, and shouldn't have been adapted. Even Alan Moore regrets writing it, and I agree. It's a well crafted comic but not a story worth tellig.
Time Code: 25:28 "My question is, is that Barbara-Batman relationship canon?"
Answer: Yes. Batman: Killing Joke [2016] explained the "Batman Beyond" [1999 - 2001], series & movie, when Batman-2 learns of their history... and how Nightwing responded when he had learnt of it.
Bruce & Barbara's relationship seems out-of-place because you did not watch "Batman Beyond" 1st before watching the movie.
2 attractive people, working side-by-side, for everyday for hours, risking & saving each others lives, constantly... feelings are going to develop.
Me, my family friend, and the audience booed when this premiered on screen