Fixing Your Branch Line: Atlantic City Line
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Since last episode's honorable mention was a branch line that was shared by New Jersey Transit, might as well pick up where I left off and focus this episode on the only commuter railroad of New Jersey. Of course, as the only branch that's technically isolated from other commuter rail lines in NJT, I decided to review it for standing out in the crowd. But upon further research, I learned that despite its standalone position in the commuter rail system, the Atlantic City Branch has one of the most unique histories of any branch on the entire railroad, as well as some of the most pressing geographic right of way challenges while entering Philadelphia, which resulted in various suggestions based on each possible route (some of which you may not be particularly fond of, but opinions of these suggestions are welcome).
Credit for all photos used go to their original photographers
All music used in this video is from the RUclips Audio Library.
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NJ Transit GP40PH-2B 4216 waits to pull Train 4622 - By Adam E. Moreira - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikime... City, New Jersey 2007 - By Bob Jagendorf from Manalapan, NJ, USA - Atlantic City From The Air, CC BY 2.0, commons.wikime...
Coney Island as seen from the pier in June 2016. - By MusikAnimal - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikime...
Las Vegas Strip2 - By BrendelSignature at English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikime...
Cherry Hill station in December 2011 - By Adam Moss from Macomb, IL, United States - GEDC1824, CC BY-SA 2.0, commons.wikime...
3rd tallest lighthouse in the U.S. - By Shannon McGee from Huntsville, USA - Absecon Lighthouse, CC BY-SA 2.0, commons.wikime...
A train at the station in 1969 - By David Wilson from Oak Park, Illinois, USA - 19690104 22 PATCO @ City Hall Station, CC BY 2.0, commons.wikime...
NJT 5166 on Atlantic City Line train passing Haddonfield station - By Sturmovik at English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikime...
Ben Franklin Br - Train Crossing - By Michael Murphy - originally posted to Flickr as Ben Franklin Br - Train Crossing, CC BY 2.0, commons.wikime...
A westbound PATCO train approaching Philadelphia on the Ben Franklin Bridge, September 2018 - By Michael Stokes - DSC_0581, CC BY 2.0, commons.wikime...
The PATCO Broadway station (part of the Walter Rand Transportation Center) in April 2015 - By Adam Moss from Macomb, IL, United States - Broadway Station, CC BY-SA 2.0, commons.wikime...
Anthracite Coal - By Amcyrus2012 - Own work, CC BY 4.0, commons.wikime...
Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal - View from helicopter - By Benjamin KRAFT - Central railroad New Jersey terminal, CC BY-SA 2.0, commons.wikime...
Music Used in Order:
Greaser - TrackTribe
Rest Easy - Vans in Japan
Old Berlin - United States Marine Band
Cheerleader - Quincas Moreira
Sunshine on Sand - Unicorn Heads
No Good Right - Freedom Trail Studios
Illusions - Anno Domini Beats
The Place Inside - Silent Partner
Potato Deal - Craig MacArthur
River Changes - Freedom Trail Studios
The track at Haddonfield, along with Patco, were put below ground level because the town did not want it to be an eyesore. Haddonfield did not want an elevated track.
Didn't want to spoil the view of that huge park and ride lot?
Once the line was built, both Collingswood and Haddon Township wished they had screamed as loud as Haddonfield did.
To a extent Haddonfield didn't want PATCO at all. They thought it would fail in a matter of months. Haddonfield also has a record of HARRASSMENT of NJ Transit bus operations.
@@allaboardarizonaaaaz842 If they did the speedline probably wouldn't exist. The cost to depress the track in haddonfield almost put an end to it. I've heard the cost but to long ago.
What is it with American railfans and their incecwbt need for double tracks, you can run a perfectly good commuter service up to every 20min in most of the world with a single track line, it’s not like every station needs 2 platforms. Stop complaining about infrastructure when you’re main problem is the unwillingness to try new services. In Europe, if a new line is wanted, a way will be found to run a service, in the Us, Everything needs to be perfect before even considering a 4x daily train.
Make Atlantic City Great Again!
PATCO should take over the AC Line and run all the way to the convention center. NJT treats the AC Line as a stepchild .
My guess about the trench is that a group of people near the station screamed so loud the political world stopped turning. The same thing happens here in California when BART wants to convert parking lots into apartments. At least some of the time. My BART Board member even ran on a position of banning these conversions and sat on the Capitol Corridor JPA. She makes me die inside just a little bit.
That is a reasonable assumption when you consider that Haddonfield is a very wealthy town. If there is opposition to any project, it won’t be happening
Yea I used to live in the bay, and Bart TOD was such a big deal. Thankfully, they have been changing that especially with the recent announcement of thousands of units at the North San Jose / berryessa BART station where they plan upwards of 30,000 units of housing and retail. Fruitvale also did a great job with its TOD, and I believe the final phase is finishing out now. The same can be said for many BART stations though if you look around the system to be honest.
The Atlantic City line as is is not that bad. I have ridden it from both Philadelphia and the Cheery Hill station. Yes there is that problem with the single track through Haddonfield and other areas. However they had no problem operating Amtrak trains that did not stop at the local New Jersey stations as well as the local NJT trains with minimal delays. There are several long passing sidings along the line so additional frequency service can be added. I did ride the old PRSL RDC trains that only operated to Lindenwald and required a transfer to the PATCO line to get to Philadelphia. The new direct service while slower was a great improvement to the Philadelphia riders as you now had easy transfers to Amtrak or SEPTA commuter trains or the subway services at 30th street. All your plans require massive capital expense while additional frequency service over the existing line can be started with minimal planning and added expense. The passengers also still have the option to transfer to PATCO to access other points in New Jersey or Philadelphia with no additional capital improvements.
@@johnchambers8528 Yea you couldn't easily get like, hourly service out of it without more passing sidings, but there's hardly demand for that anyway. A bit of upgrading and a few extra sidings and you could get a decent service on it.
If it wasn't addressed before there is one major problem with using the Ben Franklin Bridge for heavy rail: It was never designed for that type of rail use. It was designed and built for subway-type trains, which is why the tunnels on both sides are as tight as they are, as the "Bridge Line" operated over it before PATCO was built.
In 2026, that bridge will be 100 years old. Nothing lasts forever, they will have to build a new bridge eventually. Let's hope they will be more ambitious
@@legojayman Replacing the bridge, which won't happen, does not address the size of the tunnels nor the sharpness of the curves designed for subway type of operation. If you ever rode PATCO into Philly you'd realize how sharp some of those curves are and how tight the tunnel clearances are.
Short of ripping up the western part of Camden and parts of eastern Philly and rebuilding those tunnels/curves there is no way to fit a full-size train there, not to mention the ventilation needed for the diesel exhaust.
@@LionkingCMSL It wouldn't need to use the PATCO tunnels. A rail corridor could fit in the space that the i676 highway takes up in Camden, and in Philadelphia it can continue on beside or replacing the Vine St Expressway before linking up with the tunnel in Center City. As for the bridge, a new rail bridge could be constructed for passenger service.
I say this with the assumption
Imagine...a unrealistic alternate reality in which the CNJ gained LIRR style state takeover from New Jersey for its commuters services. While NJT does its job covering parts of New Jersey a lot of the CNJ lines covered parts of Jersey that are neglected now. With its growth Bayonne could use a connection to the rest of Jersey along with Communipaw as a Hudson Terminal which would alleviate congestion, southern Jersey is also neglected especially on the eastern side and CNJ would cover that better than its successor in NJT.
CNJ had already killed off most of its services before the state stepped in, which was the problem. CNJ and its successor Conrail had already abandoned some lines, and the ones Conrail was using without having to make room for passenger service, it wasn't all that keen to start sharing again. NJT has more or less stayed the course running the one (or two if you count the NJCL) CNJ line it did inherit, aside from truncating it to High Bridge instead of Phillipsburg. The bridge to Bayonne was demolished in 1980 under Conrail ownership but it would definitely be more useful now than it was in the late '70s.
The problem with rebuilding the old CNJ line back to Communipaw is that the line would use the right of way used by the HBLR. Also, Communipaw is a poorly sited terminal as it is blocked off by the rest of Jersey City by I-78 and water. Liberty State Park is now located on the site and you would never be able to convince the general public to rebuild a train station on parkland.
The CNJ closed long before Conrail or even Penn Central, actually this might have been seen of the coming future of regional railroads. The CNJ, LV, DLW, and the SuzieQ all derived a lot of their revenue from hauling coal from PA into industrial markets in the east, will all of the cheap oil at the end of WW2 this traffic disappeared and westbound traffic out of the manufacturing centers in NJ and NYC also started drying up. Aside from its unprofitable passenger services, the CNJ became a freight shuttle service for low value items, the high value stuff moved to the trucks on all the new highways that had been built,. Couple the passenger losses with the high cost of operating in NJ, a lot of which was local property taxes, it's amazing that it stayed in business as long as it did. At the time of its demise there was little precedent for a state takeover, later on that attitude would change. When the private railways asked for fare increases they either got nothing or nickels and dimes, but when the states took it over fares have gone up big time at the same time as taxpayer subsidies have gone up as well.
I think you need to include reopening the route to Cape May New Jersey and Zoo Park locations. This would also lead to opening up Millville and Vineland with more traffic instead of just a historic line. Almost all the track from RT 55 to Millville has been updated and replaced by the Seashore Line. This line also opens up additional routes as the coal trains no longer use this - as the power plant was converted. The biggest mistake and leave it to New Jersey was a high speed line should have been added to the Parkway construction from Cape May to New York.
I used to live next to the Ashland PATCO station and then the Collingwood PATCO station. I've been a regular on that train in the summer for 20 years. I'm also a planner with background on former and current funding and long term plans.
Here's the thing, No one lives in the Pine Barrens and new development isn't allowed. There won't be big rail demand there. On top of that AC is a small city and the station is kind of a far walk from the Boardwalk.
So, how to fix the line? New station at ACY airport, new stop at Woodcrest, new station at Merchantville. All trains stop at North Philly. Double tracking where possible to allow for hourly headways - . The only really constrained areas are the trench in haddonfield and the area between Woodcrest and Ashland station. During the AM peak add two extra inbound trains that only run from Atco to 30th St. Do the same thing in the PM. University City is a huge trip generator with no easy access from South Jersey. Eliminating ACRL access from South Jersey to West Philly in my opinion is just stupid.
All the ACRL needs is better frequency and two new stations to generate trips. Stopping trains at the existing North Philly station better connects the ACRL to the rest of the regional rail network and a new stop at Woidcrest takes advantage of the massive park & ride with direct interstate access.
Thank you for sharing your insight. I didn't focus on it as much in favor of the more visible track spacing issue, but increased frequency is definitely a way to improve service not only on the ACL but also on any passenger line.
@@Pensyfan19 The biggest current drawbacks to increasing service are 1) the frequent delays due to bridge openings on the Delair Bridge; and 2) the lack of interest in spending limited transportation dollars on rail line with limited ridership.
not to be that guy, but its pronounced Ab-sea-kin, not a-bes-con. In any case, great video! Love to see my neck of the woods get some coverage online. We have a shit ton of unused rail lines in south jersey that connect population centers and its a shame to see them waste away. The GCL is a promising look at what the future could hold for rail in south jersey. It certainly opens the door to extending the line down to millville, and maybe one day all the way down to cape may. And if that takes off, I feel like other rail lines, such as the merchantville one mentioned in the video, would have the possibility of reactivating as well. Again, great video. Much love from Medford, NJ!
In addition to the Absecon mispronunciations, the narrator multiple times mentioned a "Lindenwood" station. It's LindenWOLD.
The proposals are a bit of a pipe dream. The ACL has no shot of NJT finding hundreds of millions of dollars to completely rebuild rail on what is viewed as a struggling line.
The Reading and Allentown service should be branded as the Keystone Service, and continue to Harrisburg. It is just smarter, also these services could run to Pittsburgh as they are already under diesel.
Haddonfield was trenched because the elitists there didn't want an elevated line going through their town. They also were one of the bitterest NIMBY opponents to the Atlantic City line in the 1980s.
It's Ab-SE-con, not AB-se-con.
I lived in Haddon Township from 1955 to 1971, and I remember all too well the mayor of Haddonfield's statement that the PATCO line would fail in three months. He was looking forward to using the station's parking lot for Haddonfield's businesses. He never thought the line would succeed the way it did. I rode the line on opening day, January 4, 1969. I remember it was raining heavily gthat day.
@@allaboardarizonaaaaz842 yep heard Haddonfield officials claim it would fail too. Ha ha.
And Linden-WOLD not Linden-WOOD
Thinking logically, extending some of the Patco service out to AL makes the most sense. Youd need passing loops at timed intervals along the route as well as station rebuilds but I dont see why you couldnt have it wired with OLE and new trains acquired that are dual voltage to run the route. Hell you could even keep the existing fleet to run the current route and just order the additional 6-8 EMUs needed to operate say a 2tph service out to AL. The current 3rd track along the Patco alignment could even be electrified and used for direction express service in the peaks.
As a south jersey resident who happens to work for a railroad in here. I can honestly say none of this will ever happen for 2 reasons. 1: Atlantic city is a shit hole and the only time the line is busy is for the air show. 2: once south of lindinwold there's almost nothing there and only a handful of people use it to commute to Philly.
Lindenwold sorry.
Couldn't agree more. Atlantic Shitty is what I call it, it's nothing but a dump for garbage people and the homeless.
I'm one of the Philadelphia commuters on the Atlantic City line. Plenty Philadelphia riders use it to connect with Amtrak and for trips to Atlantic City and back.
South Jersey has to have rail service.
Don't tell me to ride PATCO. I did that during the line's 8 month long shutdown and hated it. PATCO acted like it clawed back its monopoly on South Jersey Philadelphia commuter rail. The very week NJ Transit finally reopened the Atlantic City line, PATCO was going to shut down 7 of its 13 stations overnight for security reasons, never mind how it inconvenienced riders. They shelved the idea and admitted no wrongdoing.
Plenty? Define plenty.
As a fellow souther jersian I concur
The RVL's limiting factor in service isn't the fact it's mostly double-tracked rather than quad-tracked since the early '90s. It's not even the single-track Aldene ramp to the Lehigh line east of Cranford (which there's plenty of room to double-track if they wanted). The real pinch point is the connection between the Lehigh line and the NEC at Hunter interlocking. It's double-tracked, but it only feeds into track 4 of the NEC, which is designed for westbound running. So inbound trains have to be timed to slot into the NEC traffic accordingly. An example of how delicate this balance is: the inbound train I ride daily now sits for 6+ minutes at Hunter waiting for an outbound RVL train AND, almost insultingly, a deadhead equipment move, to pass onto the Lehigh line so we can proceed toward Newark via track 4 and then onto the two-way track 5 when it starts closer to Newark Penn Station. This started because the outbound train's departure was pushed back, and that happened because its nominal connection from New York was pushed back a few minutes in the newest timetable to accommodate construction at Elizabeth on the NEC. A flyover at Hunter that will allow inbound RVL traffic to access the actual eastbound NEC tracks is in NJT's capital plan, and would solve a lot of this (And yes, some RVL trains currently access the "inbound" side of Newark Penn, but they have to cross all the other tracks at grade to get there...not great). Combined with upcoming NEC improvements (Portal Bridge, Gateway, etc.) the Hunter flyover would make increased service on the former CNJ main more plausible. Until then it's not all that practical.
Raritan Valley Line? I used to live in North Plainfield, NJ growing up so I was a 10-15 minute drive away from Plainfield station. I miss riding that train, especially when there's snow on the ground.
RVL needs more love. If NJT would improve bus frequencies and improve the routes(like extend some New Brunswick routes to Bound Brook) I think it'd get more riders
You are correct on that. Should also fix the issue it has West of Raritan Station the weekday service only to High Bridge. With the Flyover it should allow Weekend service to High Bridge exits 16-18 I-78. At the same Time NJ Transit should order Dual Mode Flirt Class 755s dual door for RVL ACL and the Hoboken division diesel lines.
My opinion to fix the branch line BRING BACK THE ATLANTIC CITY EXPRESS expansion service for New Jersey Transit bring back the p42dc and alp44 and bring back the aces coaches that will be cool
The Ben Franklin Rail Spaces already have a Sell-By date,
after which it will be unsafe to even walk on, from an engineering standpoint.
I respectfully lean toward a tunnel into Jefferson.
Though I live in TX., I am a Delco native.
Another great episode. Very informative, well edited. Attempts at humor are cringe-worthy, though, and hurt the flow. Just saying…
What is "Abesconn?" "Abseconn?” You mean Absecon, pronounced “Ab-see-kin”
Does anyone proof the scripts before they are recorded?
Just so you know, "heavy rail" refers to metros like the NYC subway or Tokyo Metro. It serves as a distinction from light rail. The term you're looking for is main line or regional/commuter/intercity rail.
More accurately most countries (not Switzerland though) have separate legislation for light and heavy rail.
Light rail commonly encompasses trams, trolleys, LRT, automated guideway systems, monorails, some subways etc.
Heavy rail encompasses mainline (and branchline) rail, high speed rail and some subway systems.
The terms are in no way limited to metro systems. However they are commonly used to distinguish different system types as light and heavy rail legislation often places widely different limits on train length, loading gauge and maximum speed.
@@lars7935 Heavy rail is typically only used to refer to non-metro rail by the Brits. In North America, the term is entirely separate from regional and intercity rail.
@@kirkrotger9208 Well the world is bigger than just two countries so I'm going with the most general definition.
@lars7935 That's the definition for the western hemisphere. Considering this is an American channel talking a rail line in the US, that's the appropriate definition to use.
@@kirkrotger9208 Which is valid.
I had assumed you were talking more generally since you included Tokyo in your original example.
extend Patco to Atlantic City cheapest way to go. use third rail as they do up in New York where their is a intersection just stop the third rail before inter section. 4 Patco cars will make it throught the break
So NJ transit A long time ago, look into the feasibility of running from New York to Philly through Red Bank to Winslow Junction down the old blue Comet line. Obviously as right now nothings happening. But hey you never know. Stranger things have happened
Why don't NJ Transit invest money in expanding the North Jersey Coast Line to Atlantic City ?
how to pronounce Absecon and Lindenwold Lin-den-wald Ab-See-con now you dont have to piss of any nj viewers👍
How did I miss your postings? PATCO should have been extended to the Penn Hospital complex decades ago, which is an alternative perhaps even more compelling.
Do the opposite of frontrunner and doubletrack the line everywhere but stations that cant get
2:36 ~ That locomotive looks an awful lot like the first NZR Q class; a couple of Rogers 2-4-4 tanks built for New Zealand in 1877.
I certainly learnt a lot about Atlantic City's railways from this video, having forgot about the Blue Comet. Despite the line being significantly rationalized, I think the current NJT service is better than no train at all (but yeah, the situation at Haddonfield is just stupid).
The Raritan Valley Line is NOT a branch line. That distinction belongs to the Princeton or Gladstone branches. Also your proposal for the Raritan Valley Line while is interesting, it ain't gonna happen. Most stations east of Raritan won't be moving due to some of the towns not wanting to deal with all that (NIMBY crowds) clusterfuck. Actually it works out fine the way it is with maybe a few more trains running from High Bridge on weekdays
I think Raritan Valley line could benefit a lot from better links south of Newark. There's some fantastical ideas out there, but I think just bus service from NB station to either bound brook, or Somerville with at least 30min frequency would do a lot of good.
Giving it to the 815 and it could link 3 different lines faster than doing horseshoe trip on the rails
when are we getting fixing your branch line of the ffarquahar branch line
That would be epic
@@DOTD7382 more like *dat* would be epic
@@WesternOhioInterurbanHistory Haha!
Don't convert PATCO, convert to PATCO! Yeah, it's kind of expensive, but it's probably cheaper to electrify to AC than to figure out how the hell to convert all the infrastructure in the city to support heavy rail. Doesn't need the same frequency as PATCO but those trains are just as comfortable as commuter rail
I need to learn to finish the damn video before commenting
I used to live in Elwood, NJ., I know the PRSL line. In 1967 the Atlantic City line was single tracked with some portions of having it double tracked for up to 15 miles. PATCO had originally planned to extend their line into Atlantic City in gradual phases which they failed to do. Converting the PATCO line to heavy rail, extending all the way to Atlantic City, and Eve to Ocean City, Cape May would be very good. Also even a line all the way to Bayhead from Camden which would connect both South Jersey & North Jersey lines at Bay Head. The Raritan Valley line used to go all the way to Philippsburg and should be extended into Allentown,PA and SEPTA extend service back into Bethlehem & Allentown fron Lansdale where service ends.
Why not also Bay Head to AC?
Where the hell is this guy from??? Lindenwood? It is Lindenwold!! Pronounced LIN-DEN-WALD. Another one here. Abseecon? It is pronounced AB-SEE-KEN. God, I really hate it when non-locals to the Delaware Valley do these documentaries.
Please excuse my Long Island accent...
What about creating an upper level track at Haddonfield just to the side
You seem to assume that the powers that be care about rail service in Southern New Jersey. Or that Camden is desirable to travel and visit. Or that anyone would spend the money to double track an extremely iffy rail line. I was told there were studies done that recommended more frequent service on both the River Line and Atlantic City Rail Line, and nothing has happened.
Not doing any of that, as very few ride to / from A/C , it will remain as is, until it stops entirely.
the much quicker solution would be to buy new bi-mode (possibly battery range extended with fast charge points at atlantic city itself) patco trains and run some of those trains to atlantic city express services.
that way you can do electrification/double tracking slowly.
not ideal but it’s more likely than big infrastructure modifications
Double tracking is overrated. You only (maybe) need it if you want to run express trains alonside frequent local trains. Currently, they are running every two hours..
What you need is for every station to have two platforms (preferably with a pedestrian underpass), so the trains can cross at every station.
You would have to do this anyway if you're serious about double tracking, but just doing the stations first gives you most of the advantages.
Also, the line seems to just miss stations. For example, there is a station by the highway exit between Berlin and Atco, but no stations in Berlin or Atco where people actually live.
I live in a town in Switzerland of 5'000 people. Our train runs every 30 minutes, and they're planning to introduce 15min service in the next decade. It runs on a single track, has higher ridership than the atlantic city train, and the entire population along the line is smaller than the Atlantic City urban area.
The single track is not the problem. Fix the stations and buy the trains
@@argh523 you do realise what you’ve just said is an example of “doing double tracking slowly” as service increases right? as i had put in the comment
@@JacobOhlssonBudinger No. I'm not proposing to do double tracking slowly. If you just run a few trains per hour each direction, you don't need double tracking, just points for passing, and it makes sense to do those at stations
This could be an opportunity to connect to the Atlantic City airport. ACY then could relieve PHL of some of its traffic.
Those short Amtrak routes would almost certainly be partially funded by the state they are in, and therefore the state government would have a lot of say in their details.
New rolling stock for PATCO can be bought that is dual mode 3rd rail and catenary so it can be used to run at high speed operation past lindenwold on catenary mode
Unlike north Jersey, south Jersey has a tiny metro area. Thus the low numbers on the AC Line mean that NJT will probably do nothing to it. I think what would help is making the line Philly oriented, by having more service to Philly in the morning and AC in the evening. Why this line has no rush hour trains, unlike every other NJT line is beyond me. Otherwise, maybe electrifying the line in the long term would help to make more uniform to other NJT lines.
Scheduling on the line is limited by the number and location of sidings.
Another hanging issue about the AC line is Amtrak.
I always wish until this day if they would not scrap the Atlantic City Express from Penn Station Newark Penn Station and to Atlantic City that would have been a big difference
It needs electrification.
A new station should be constructed near the old Frankford Jct station in Philly, but closer to the Mkt-Fkd El. That way, Trenton line and El riders could catch the Atlantic City train there instead of riding all the way to 30th St. to transfer, saving at least a half-hour.
What About The Main And Bergen County Lines? No Electrification And No Penn Station Service Makes Them Important To Fix. What's Your Diagnosis For Them?
I think I surveyed them before. For those lines, I would say restore the 4th track where it used to be.
The biggest problem is the terrible schedule. Adding more trains would increase casino worker ridership. Trains should run 24 hours. Last train leaving Atlantic City is before 11. Many shows and concerts end right around or after that time so people end up driving.
There is one question that needs to be answered: could FRA crashworthiness approved trains ever be made to fit dimension and weight wise onto the subway tunnels? If yes, then this project could actually be completed relatively expensively; just add a third rail and add passing sidings to allow for more trains
If not you would need to grade separate everything between Lindenwald and Atalntic City which would hike the price up a lot and may turn locals against the project.
That said, if you could *somehow* connect this to the City Center Septa tunnel an unsaid benefit would be that you would solve the problem of branch imbalance you would equalize the number of branches on the Reading side compared to the Pennsy side.
I'd say the cheapest and best compromise option is to double track the ACL from Atlantic City to Lindenwold and then turn back some trains. The rest of the line into 30th Street would operate at the current schedule or as frequently as the bottleneck permits.
The only way to have a second track at Haddonfield would be to tunnel underneath the existing track. You can’t double deck the line as there is the PATCO station right above it.
Woodcrest Station would be a better transfer spot as there is a huge parking lot and EZ access to I-295. It would be an excellent spot for folks going to either AC or Philly. The AC line is about the same level as the Patco line there
Ironically I was the opposite, convert the Atlantic city to heavy Subway (PATH) with diesel bits for long distance
What is it with American railfans and their incecwbt need for double tracks, you can run a perfectly good commuter service up to every 20min in most of the world with a single track line, it’s not like every station needs 2 platforms. Stop complaining about infrastructure when you’re main problem is the unwillingness to try new services. In Europe, if a new line is wanted, a way will be found to run a service, in the Us, Everything needs to be perfect before even considering a 4x daily train.
the raritan line the most unutilized rail line out there as it terminates in high bridge i lived in glen gardener for 5 yrs and use the high bridge station daily --but if you extendit to the delware gap bridge it passes right through philpsburgs easton and bethleham in phil. it would benifit alot of rail passengers living in the highlands of nothwest jersey and that region to allentown to the westbut the track layout and right of ways are still there there is alot of people who travel from philpsburg to highland that would benifit from the redevolpment of that line also about every 3 to 5 yrs passengers who travel that distance pation njt to redevlop the line again i know i let a few of them
also in mentioning the ac line is many options njt has been thinking of and a few are redevolpment of as many south jersey rail lines as posible. also making bayhead a pass through like long branch to connect to the ac line also there is a couple of lines you did not mention at all and that is on the coast line there is a couple of branchoffs one at perth amboy or south amboy going through to jameburg then head south through freehold to lakewood that there are redeloping as i type this Also another from monmouth junction to jamesburg to freehold thine lines still exsist just have to be converted to either commuter use or light rail lines but most of all once you leave lakewood the camden route went throught the pinelands to trenton to camden --i know that because my mom took that exact line from freehold to trenton cathloic high school all it would take is a line inspection crew in a rali pickup to inspect the lines for flaws
Loved your rapid-fire presentation. Great content and interesting proposals for future expansion or re-expansion. Only wish I'd be around when some of them are finally chosen.
NJT can start by connecting the Cherry Hill Station to the Costco and the other stores and the new residential area surrounding the stores and stop at North Philadelphia stations. It'll supply the retail area with workers from Philly and commuters from NJ without cars
End of PATCO line is Lindenwold not Lindenwood. Other than that, great video!
honestly just double tracking a couple more sections here and there and improving track quality would go a long way. i think we get too fixated on grand plans and ignore the effects of small improvements here and there
How about extending PATCO to AC, with battery car on thru trains?
There's a lot they can do expand the north jersey coast train from bay head jct take that trough where abandoned it through seaside heights seaside park and Barnet and beachheaven and contact that thru the lakewood and then Atlantic city lines parts of those lines thru lakewood and Lakehurst is out of service try to connect
Single track. What do you expect where even helping the infirm is a business.
Can’t find we’re the pascack valley line fixing is? But good video!
The two-hour frequencies are there for a good reason, like many others in here said, AC is a total shithole that not many people want to go to. So why would added capacity by adding another track be worth the money?
You made a mistake. The Franklin bridge can’t support the weight for heavy rail.
Honesly Trans and Transit are undersubsided and Airports and Higways are oversubsidesed.
The issue with even using this line at all is that it's very difficult/slow to get up and down the island without a car. If I lived out in the suburbs, I would have to drive into town (30-45 mins.+15 minutes with parking/being early), sit on a very slow train (1.5 hours), and then find a jitney/bus/Uber to get me where I need to be (20-45 mins. with waiting). While transit is critical, I couldn't see myself taking it (even if I lived in Center City), especially with luggage/beach stuff.
Good presentation. Absecon is pronounced Ahb- SEE-con.
How about extending PATCO to Atlantic City, put third rail down, expand the platforms, add a other track, and you have it, a rail line from Philadelphia to Atlantic City.
I also mention that as one of the possibilities for the route later in the video.
It should be Inbound cab into Philly & Outbound 🚂 from Philly
Well...for the (PATCO) expand more
If you know your history, the Newark Bay Bridge was removed because it was a navigation and rail hazard
Yeah… no… this isn’t it
What do you mean?
You’ve clearly shown that you’re not from the area and have no concept of how modifying everything would do absolutely nothing to increase ridership on a line that doesn’t need more stations and doesn’t need double track. I laughed so hard when you said to convert PATCO.
@@BlueCometProductions Alright. As I said at the end of the video, my suggestions, however unusual they may sound to some, aren't the only solutions available for the line, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions and observations. This series is also not limited to a budget or ridership numbers per se, in which I'm just trying to identify possible solutions for a specific branch line. Furthermore, adding or reinstating a second track allows for more capacity on the line, which, in addition to more railcars, allows for easier flow of traffic and therefore more trains, hence why multiple passenger railroads have instated second and third tracks in busier areas, such as on my home railroad, the Long Island Railroad. But thank you for voicing your concerns, and best of luck with your channel!
@@Pensyfan19 Again, as I previously stated, you're solving a problem that doesn't exist. There is not nearly enough passenger demand/ridership to justify adding a second track. Plus, the engineers that designed and constructed the Ben Franklin Bridge did not factor in the weight of GP40s with 3-4 passenger cars crossing it on a daily basis. Not to mention the incredibly steep incline that NJT trains would encounter in each direction.
@@santaclaus8017 Alright then. Please read my response to this verified yotuuber above me. Although, please know that bashing people online over their opinions may put you on your own naughty list... ;)
no too much iteruption of service so it would nver get past the statehouse.
t wo track tunnel under the trail is more politicall palatiable i think.
NIMBYs will never will never allow trail to return to rail
bro i would LOVEEEE the glassboro line
0:12 *confused montrealer screaming* st constant is where the canadian rr museum is
It's pronounced Ab-Sea-Kin
Going through the tunnels in Camden and across the BF isn't going to happen. I'm sure there are more knowledgeable rail fans then me but isn't/wasnt there a standard/common lenght for passenger cars? I know the first speedline cars were built to this length and they hit the walls in the tunnels. I think the redesigned cars are about 10' shorter and its still hard on the wheels and why all the squealing.
Going across the bridge the ties used to sit on thick concrete slabs. In the mid 80's wanting to add cars to the trains they had to remove the concrete, the ties sit on I beams now.
It was designed for the bridge train.
Patco absorbed the existing Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge commission service ran by PTC/SEPTA IN 1968, and used a mix of specially built B2 "Bridge" cars with the existing B1 and B3 "North and South Broad" cars. The new patco fleet would be built to those standards as the tunnels and stations was already designed for 10 foot wide 67.5 foot long cars.
But getting back to the ACL itself, the line does have the infrastructure to handle hourly service with minimal waits with multiple long sidings scattered along the route. NJT simply refuses to give it the schedule to expand service. The Delair Bridge is also a severe choke point as it is not controlled or maintained by NJT, but by Conrail; it's age is also of concern too as it regularly has issues closing.
If there was one thing that NJT does right and that's keeping the ever reliable GP40PH-CAT2 locomotives down here. The PL42ACs break down if you look at it the wrong way and the ALP45DP would have to do a power change at 30th Street during it's layover, granting that it has to fuel to do it (range concerns).
While I do like the idea of patco extending further to ac, the DRPA does not see the need to extend itself to territory that is NJT responsibility.
Counter: convert the ACL south of Lindenwold for metro service, reduces overall operating costs, allows for 2 track services and can expand upon express service by having a dual-running system where NJT owns/operates from Lindenwold to AC and PATCO into philly without changing trains
That's fucking stupid lol. You seem to not know what a metro is clearly
Maybe the ACL could just share the trackage with PATCO?
NJT might have some clearance issues with the 3rd rail and platforms that prevent them from using PATCO tracks, as well as the fare system at PATCO stations if NJT were to stop at PATCO stations.
23:32 - Linden*wold* not Linden*wood* .
It would seem to me that extending Patco to Atlantic City would make the most sense. But there are few problems:
1- No connection to 30th street station for Amtrak.
2- Patco's trains are the originals that were recently rebuilt. The motors wsere retained/refurbished because they are so powerful. Patco trains pack quite a punch when it comes to acceleration. The question is whether they have enough spare trains to extend say 2 trains to Atlantic City for hourly service (wth rest of trains still terminating at Lindenwold). Or if they would need to purchase new trainsets. (and then there is the issue of fares since going beyond Lindenwold would likely cost more so how do you collect those extra fares?)
3- 3rd rail and level crossings don't mix very well (but do exist) and there are lots of level crossings. I think the worse one is at Egg Harbor City (crossing the main street/highway 50 where width of road might require train to be long enough to still get power from back until front has crossed road and recontacted 3rd rail.
Or just keep route as is and just iprove track conditions for highed speed and add more sidings to allow greater frequency. This has the advantage of being incremental in nature instead of rebuilding new serice on the right of way.
It's Lindenwold not Lindenwood
Thanks for the correction. Please excuse my Long Island accent.
@@Pensyfan19 Do your research on the pronunciations next time. You should re-release this video with the proper pronunciations. Us Philly and South Jersey people seriously take offense to this.
The same shit ! Hehehe sorry !
ACL more like, more like, more like, I can’t come up with a light hearted pun for this.
On the Texas coastline all the spurs and branch lines are literal trenches with the grading inside the trenches because the land is so flat there’s nothing to build a grade on. They also used to use oyster shells for ballast
It's LindenWOLD. Not wood. You got it right later in the video.
Sorry about that. Probably due to a typo earlier in the script.
I am not familiar with the line but I imagine the cheapest and most reasonable way to improve service would be to introduce an hourly service instead of the twice hourly. With the length the single tracking appears to be that would probably be achievable with a limited addition of sidings rather than full double tracking. The sidings do not necessarily need to be in the stations either, but can be built on sections wherever there’s room. The other recommendation I would have is to replace the GP40PH-2 locomotives with PL42AC or ALP-45DP units, especially since the line intersects with the very capacity-congested NEC.
ALP45s inherit alot of issues on the Atlantic City Line. They overheat if they idle underground for too long so they have to be brought outside the station at 30th Street. Also, since the service using the NEC into Philly, the train has to make a full stop once on and switch over from deisel power to electric power. Therefore adding travel time to the route which already gets sided for Amtrak going into philly
@@SwirlyTrainz I suppose that's probably true; it looks like they do still have a number of PL42AC units that are scheduled to be replaced that could be displaced instead
@@andrewreynolds4949 The PL42ACs have serious reliability issues; They HAVE to be ran in solid sets (either C-Vs or Multilevels) or the locomotive computer melts down; Like the ALP45's, the heat from the exhaust is so great, that it CAN melt and snap catenary; they don't like to run at high speed for a extended period. The list goes on and on!!!!!
Right now there is MINIMAL line protection as there is several GP40PH-CAT2's out of service for overhaul.
I generally agree with your suggestions, except the choice of locomotives. The GP-40 is one of the most reliable locomotives ever built, whereas most if not all of the newer foreign designs are trouble-prone. It is very unfortunate that the Federal government didn't snap up all the F-40s that Amtrak was getting rid of, and store them for future rebuilding using modern American-built prime movers and electrical equipment based on highly reliable American-built freight locomotives. A locomotive does not need to look like it was styled by Raymond Lowey in order to pull commuter trains.
@@evanstauffer4470 The old EMD units are fantastic and I love them, but there are still limits on how long they can be kept in service. Eventually it reaches a point where the only reasonable way to keep them reliably running is to replace virtually everything, which does have cost advantages (see previous rebuild programs on similar networks), but that still has limitations and still gives a locomotive not optimized for commuter service. I suggested the PL42AC or ALP45DP units because they are models NJT already has, and would not need to set up new logistics for them. I would not favor replacing them with Siemens Chargers for that reason. Meanwhile the GP-40s could be transferred to non-revenue service or sold off very easily, given there is still a somewhat significant demand for older EMD units.
All this does presume significant enhancements are being made to the line's service; What I would actually do if I was in charge of this as part of NJT is probably what they seem to be doing for this line, which is very little (from the lack of news I have seen). I think the GP-40s will stay for now.
This was a very informative, but I did get a kick out of you annihilating the name Absecon.
Thanks, my Long Island accent sometimes makes me mispronounce some words, or a simple slip of the tongue. Apologies for any pronunciation errors on the channel.
@@Pensyfan19 No apologies necessary at all. I'm a total New Yorker from the Lower East Side and my accent lets every know it. 😁 I just thought it was funny because my cousin lives in Egg Harbor City and used to correct my pronunciation of Absecon and others.
Lindenwold and another too. I got a good laugh out of it.
Watching for Morris fears
bro you dont even pronounce absecon correctly lol. njt wants to close this all the time, the casinos are the only thing saving it. ridership is crap.
I noticed this also it is pronounced "Ab See Con"
The best and simplest solution would be for DRPA to take over the line and convert the whole operation to metro. This option was turned down in 1979 when Congressman Jimmy Florio proposed it to the agency. The problem was twofold: the cost of money, and the fact that the agency was over-leveraged due to the costs of the Betsy Ross and Commodore Barry bridges.
On the west end of the line, it needs to be connected via subway to Thirtieth Street Station. The Sixteenth-Locust terminus is in the middle of nowhere, and the Woodland Avenue subway, into which it was to feed, was never constructed.
On the east end, all grade crossings on the line need to be eliminated. Station stops with island platforms need to be at Berlin Township (West Berlin), Berlin Borough (Berlin), Atco, Hammonton, Hammonton Park-and-Ride, Egg Harbor City, Absecon, Atlantic City Convention Center and Boardwalk. A short elevated structure from Convention Center to Boardwalk, even if single-tracked, would debark passengers where the action is, not a long distance from it in a less-than-safe city.
New rolling stock capable of 110 mph operation would be needed, and some local stops on the Lindenwold segment would be skipped for Atlantic City trains. The current rolling stock originally operated at 75 mph until too many motors burned out. The speed was lowered to 65, and it may even be down to 60 by now. We need rolling stock that can get around that problem and provide competitive service when rated against the Atlantic City Expressway.
Why is that needed.
also in the medium o long term it should be extended south t through the greater Atlantic city area to ocean cit. and maybe even the resort community of wildwood.
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also some trains should o to philly airport.
If Patco is converted to heavy rail, it could be operated with ex-LIRR cars by either New Jersey Transit or Patco.
The Ben Franklin Bridge can't handle heavy rail. For that option, you'd need to build a tunnel instead.
Leave PATCO out of it.
What about putting back trains to Ocean City and Cape May??
very unrealistic
I use both PATCO and the AC line, they are both to convenient. I can take either into philly then connect to the airport line, or there is a free shuttle from Egg Harbor to the AC airport. If you want to get to the AC Convention center thats the last stop, the station is at the building. NJT also has a free bus from the station to the casinos. IDK why people don't use it.
Cause the AC line is infrequent
@@qjtvaddict And doesn't even run all days of the week
@@moosesandmeese969 it doesn't ? I could've sworn it does these days
Can we please just have NJT’s NE Corridor connect to 30th Street? Then we can have a cohesive system! Amtrak and Septa would, without a doubt, get pissed off though…
Thanks for the rich & checkered history.
Just a little nit, but as someone who grew up in Absecon, please allow me to correct the pronunciation: ab-SEE-cunn
Can you do a video on NCTD’s SPRINTER
I usually cover railroads with four or more branch lines, and sadly Coaster/NICTD does not meet this qualification.
In later years looking at expanding the Lindenwold line, other townships have spoken loudly about above ground vs below ground and one went so far as to demand that not only the transit line be buried but the privately owned freight rail line be 'undergrounded' as part of the expansion. Of course the freight line said 'fine, just as long as you pay for it', understand that freight railways cannot handle the same grades as transit and have a larger loading gauge all of which would make the underground part of the project much larger and much more expensive, for this and other reasons the project was never built aside from the Camden/Trenton interurban that used an abandoned rail line. We have to look at these projects from a feasibility prospective, the money well has its limitations. Road bridge tolls pay for both capital costs and operating subsidies of the existing line except for the Trenton line that is run by the state. The Lindenwold is limited by train capacity over the 75 year old Franklin bridge, I believe that these tracks were originally built for trolleys and this line is certainly not a trolley line in terms of train weight, it is a heavyweight rail transit line. Remember too that truck weights on the bridge when it was built were in the range of 25 tons and now they are twice that and remember too that trucks pay tolls, trains don't. Lastly, a major line limitation is the terminal at Philadelphia, there are only two tracks in this former subway station and while some investment has been made to improve train access and eliminate a speed restriction there is still only two tracks. The station does not connect to either the Philadelphia transit nor to the commuter lines in the city, other than that it isn't a bad location but as I remember it is the only stop in Philly.
Really, discussion of the AC line has to consider AC itself. When the line was built the city was a resort location outside Philly and was a pretty nice one. With the end of the Penn Central it was necessary for somebody to take the line over or see it closed like most of the other former commuter lines into Philly, given the road congestion that was not a good plan and it was added to all of the other commuter lines now run by the NJDOT. This line was a big loser for PC and they never spent much money on it and the state has upgraded it a lot since takeover without going crazy although some of this has involved long term shutdowns that force riders into alternatives, some never come back. A lot of folks thought that casino gambling in AC was going to be the solution to that city's downfall and that it would become the Las Vegas of the east, that didn't happen despite large investments by casino operators in some very nice new hotels and casinos there. What wasn't done was investment in the 'before gambling' assets in the city such as the boardwalk and the attractions there. What happened to the city itself was that a lot of former summer beach properties were converted to year round and rented out in the off months eventually turning to year round leases on properties that are increasingly run down. AC itself doesn't provide a base of commuter ridership, some of the communities around it do, on either side of AC are some really nice communities with none of the decline and decay and crime that infests AC. There is simply not enough parking at the AC terminal however. At one time there was a branch line extending to the southern end of NJ that also generated ridership however this has been discontinued, these communities have continued to grow and prosper. What happened to the casinos at AC is that the high rolling gamblers that make LV so successful didn't show up at AC, most of the casinos are mostly slots and armies of retirees show up daily on chartered busses with a fanny pack of coins to amuse themselves and maybe have a lunch in the casino cafeteria not the expensive restaurants like those in Vegas. A big blow to AC was that neighboring states of PA and NY opened casinos of their own and these have drained a lot of revenue out of the city. NJ itself is at least talking of building a casino just outside of NYC, that would be another nail in the coffin of AC. Neither Amtrak nor NJ transit ever seriously proposed a direct train to AC for gamblers or others. I believe that historically such a train existed.
I grew up in South Jersey, and used PATCO and the ACL frequently. Its a real shame how short changed the region was and is and that funds were never allocated to fix the severe congestion problems in the region. There is next to no rail access to the major towns and cities with the rest of the state, which makes the congestion so much worse. It was shortsighted to abandon and convert and outright eliminate ROWs through out the region. I know if I had easier access to public transit rather than dealing with the overcrowding and congestion on the roads, I might still be living there today.
Lindenwold not Lindenwood
You murdered some of these town names.
#raiseriggy