drawing/painting students learning in a more realist tradition will be aware of the concept of the master study. The more traditional schools and ateliers will heavily emphasize this aspect of the art practice.
I'm 8 mins into a video that's 2 years old but I will say that the Charles Bargue 'course' for portraiture painters of the late 1800s had exactly this idea of masterwork at it's core in having curated a number of architypal anatomy forms that students would then study and integrate.
I'm watching some of your videos and they are interesting. I spent three years teaching at an art school as an adjunct professor and really just needed to stop. The art schools are failing in many ways. The school came looking for me because of my professional background and I felt I was not a teacher and told them that straight up, but they wanted me anyway. I had no clue on how to teach and maybe that was a good thing. I did well as a teacher for the students that I worked with because I had always been somewhat of a handyman of art and design and approach things in various ways. It enabled me to focus on the individual student and help them play up their strengths. In my design career it was never about me and I didn't ever think about me. I only thought of the work and did it accomplish its goal. I think what we are seeing is that "star" mentality of look at me thing and the need for attention. F---- attention and celebrity mentality. Design and art are more like building a house and you are the carpenter, electrician, plumber and architect. It's not so fancy. It's about building a strong foundation and adding to it. I worked in design in architecture, interior design, product design, brand identity for clothing companies, food service design facilities, advertising design, textile design and illustration. My work would be considered mostly mainstream like Olympic posters, apparel graphics, logo design for restaurants and sport stadiums, greeting cards and books. It was very far flung, and I enjoyed the diversity. I worked in corporate design divisions fulltime and as a freelancer. In freelance it was mostly by word of mouth from one company to another with the same area of design needs. This was all way before the social media explosion and thank goodness for that. The internet I find problematic. There's too much bombardment of ideas. I never got pigeonholed and survived being old school. I always continued to paint and draw and would get involved in juried fine art shows all those forty years as a side gig. I had another outlet and developed relationships to art dealers that sell my fine art. I have been a realist painter and now an abstract painter. I can do either and not sure if my abstract work is just a phase, but it sure does utilize a lot of graphic design. There are some that would say that my art is always about pleasing someone else and there's truth to that, but to be able to buy a house, pay for my children's education and become the best Pop Pop to my grandchildren is a noble cause. I try to not go very deep in my thoughts on art and design and utilize the years of building that foundation. I just use whatever talent I was given to nurture the best I can and have no interest in notoriety. I told the students that I worked with that there's always going to be people who are much more talented, and the main thing is to develop a professional quality with strong concept and a passion and the drive within yourself. There is nothing a teacher can do to have you accomplish that and it has to be within you. A teacher can point out tools and point to directions, but it's about that passion and becoming a workhorse and again nothing fancy. It's just hard work. I appreciate your videos because you are pointing out some awesome facts. I could never articulate like you, or my head would explode. It's pretty astounding that you can do this and willing to put that information out there.
Damn! Great comment! So many things running through my mind as a result of your comment. I appreciate you. Stay strong, and heartfelt thanks for your kind words 🙏
I heard John Mayer say once that you shouldn’t learn guitar, you should learn music. My instinct was the same as joshuas. I just wanted to learn my favorite avett brothers song/where to put my fingers on the frets to do so. I never thought about learning music.
In my experience, there are two types of artworks One can produce: spiritual or commercial. When you distill those, it becomes either an Individual Pursuit of some manner of Fulfillment, or becoming a Slave to the Grind kina scenario. I also think that most artists just struggle in a Limbo of In-Between the two States of Being. Often not moving in any direction whatsoever. So they quit. Or become jaded < this state is the worst imo. Artistic pursuits are simply a War of Attrition waged Within (and Against) Ourselves.
Great work as always. The riff on Oedipus hit home for sure. Its so great how you were able to flesh out all that info and references for me to learn about just by discussing a similar topic. I am currently going down on Godfrey Reggio hole right now....I think what you said about knowing your fathers is very profound. Idk if this is related but im only on this channel and now learning about Godfrey by a fluke chance. If one artist didnt talk about another and another, then pointed me towards this channel and so on. So i guess to your point about learning from the masters and history I would say it really is a incredible way to learn
I'm beginning to realize my approach to learning and school has been different than a lot of other people. I had this thought the other day that I actual never "learned" programming but just got obsessed with it and would just never sleep until I understood how to do a particular thing (when we were "learning programming" In class I would just be trying to do the next chapter in the book or something, this was in an "interactive design class" and not a computer science class if that wasn't clear). That's just kinda how I approach most things. I think people like that will benefit from school despite not learning discrete skills; which I also had. For example I had an etching class where a lot of that was just learning techniques. I think the danger is that someone looking for validation and really diving in can get "indoctrinated" into artspeak and the "art world's approach." I don't mean that in a Fox News kind of way but that being around that environment can make you exclude people who are not. The realization I've had is something like the term "modernity" which actually means totally different things in painting, literature, design, architecture, etc. and how I used to internally cringe when people would call "contemporary art" "modern." Took me a long time to realize the term is just ineffective and when you correct people you're just trying to make them an outsider. I don't think that is necessarily on purpose, but really took me a long time to try and deprogram the some of the stuff art school had imprinted upon me.
i graduated from scad and my entire program was copying works. i wrote many many imitative pieces from abraham lincolns four scores to joan didion, using style to write ~original~ works
it was creative writing. the entire writing department used that model. every class from fiction to essay writing used copying the style of masterworks to make our own work. they were called imitative pieces
I think performance without comparing is taught in music but not in visual arts because there's a language for that. Notes, tabs, written lyrics... There's nothing like that for drawing, painting etc. And recording of the process is a recent phenomenon and fossilized schools never do anything recent.
I have thought about this a bit and it talks about the what a lot but I keep thinking about the why. Why do people in visual arts not want to work in the tradition of. I am still thinking of this. It is nice to see you online.
Computer scientists all write certain programs for practice. How many people wrote BigInt or viginere's cipher, dikstras algorithm or the karatsuba. For the extremely brave, rijndael's algorithm.
We translate τύραννος as "rex" because while in Greek τύραννος meant "ruler of a polis, absolute ruler," but when the word was borrowed into Latin as tyrannus, the meaning shifted to "illegitimate ruler." And was further hardened as the French tyrant (from which we get our English word). So, no, τύραννος does not mean what we mean by "tyrant" in English, and it would be a mistranslation to render it in English (or even Latin) with the etymological ancestor word. And debating the nuances of the modern English word is actually irrelevant.
Gee when I learned to draw, I started out tracing with tracing paper. I figured if I could I could move my hand to trace, there was nothing wrong with hand. I thought everyone started out tracing.
The basic premise of the presentation was that visual artists are required to create masterpieces without actually knowing what the hell they’re doing. Most visual artists don’t know composition. I’ve been making art for almost 55 years and to be honest it’s usually hit or miss. Only in the last 10 years under extreme life, threatening duress, have I went back and learned the stuff that I did not learn in art school. And the reason I didn’t learn it is because they didn’t teach it. I’m not talking about the business side which no art school teaches, i’m talking about basic stuff like the grid method, what is the difference between a fan brush a filbert a round and a flat. And hundreds of other small techniques that come together with traditional painting and drawing. On top of that digital art has taken over the commercial art space for the last 40 years and now a I will put millions of artists out of work.
Ateliers art training has the student start his practice by doing nothing but direct copies out of master print books. Have you ever heard of that school? It seems as though they already have what you’re hinting at in this video.
Yes, they do. Master copy and compositional studies from high-quality imagery are used throughout the curriculum in most art schools all the time, as is figure drawing, anatomy etc. There was a conceptual move away from focusing on craft for a period of time, but it has swung back or at least there are options in terms of the type of art school one goes to. There are art schools that do not but I know for certain that they are a minority. For those who do not have these experiences in college that is a serious disservice to them. **The explanation of the purpose of master copy and building repertoire was explained really well here. Much appreciated.
I teach as a visiting lecturer for several fine arts faculties in Europe and Asia, and I also teach Walt Disney artists. Most art schools in Europe do not teach even the most rudimentary processes of painting. The professors themselves cannot paint, let alone teach painting - especially in the UK. In many of these institutions, classical art is even mocked. Unfortunately, even the so called 'life drawing lessons' are unattended and only serve to cement bad habits and poor drawing methods. Things seem to be swinging back, but it's a far cry away from the level that these institutions claim to possess.
I've been looking for a channel like yours for a long time. this is awesome
drawing/painting students learning in a more realist tradition will be aware of the concept of the master study. The more traditional schools and ateliers will heavily emphasize this aspect of the art practice.
i gotta go read that play again IN GREEK! thanks for another great video and for sharing another cool dude with us!
I'm 8 mins into a video that's 2 years old but I will say that the Charles Bargue 'course' for portraiture painters of the late 1800s had exactly this idea of masterwork at it's core in having curated a number of architypal anatomy forms that students would then study and integrate.
I'm watching some of your videos and they are interesting. I spent three years teaching at an art school as an adjunct professor and really just needed to stop. The art schools are failing in many ways. The school came looking for me because of my professional background and I felt I was not a teacher and told them that straight up, but they wanted me anyway. I had no clue on how to teach and maybe that was a good thing. I did well as a teacher for the students that I worked with because I had always been somewhat of a handyman of art and design and approach things in various ways. It enabled me to focus on the individual student and help them play up their strengths. In my design career it was never about me and I didn't ever think about me. I only thought of the work and did it accomplish its goal. I think what we are seeing is that "star" mentality of look at me thing and the need for attention. F---- attention and celebrity mentality. Design and art are more like building a house and you are the carpenter, electrician, plumber and architect. It's not so fancy. It's about building a strong foundation and adding to it. I worked in design in architecture, interior design, product design, brand identity for clothing companies, food service design facilities, advertising design, textile design and illustration. My work would be considered mostly mainstream like Olympic posters, apparel graphics, logo design for restaurants and sport stadiums, greeting cards and books. It was very far flung, and I enjoyed the diversity. I worked in corporate design divisions fulltime and as a freelancer. In freelance it was mostly by word of mouth from one company to another with the same area of design needs. This was all way before the social media explosion and thank goodness for that. The internet I find problematic. There's too much bombardment of ideas. I never got pigeonholed and survived being old school. I always continued to paint and draw and would get involved in juried fine art shows all those forty years as a side gig. I had another outlet and developed relationships to art dealers that sell my fine art. I have been a realist painter and now an abstract painter. I can do either and not sure if my abstract work is just a phase, but it sure does utilize a lot of graphic design. There are some that would say that my art is always about pleasing someone else and there's truth to that, but to be able to buy a house, pay for my children's education and become the best Pop Pop to my grandchildren is a noble cause. I try to not go very deep in my thoughts on art and design and utilize the years of building that foundation. I just use whatever talent I was given to nurture the best I can and have no interest in notoriety. I told the students that I worked with that there's always going to be people who are much more talented, and the main thing is to develop a professional quality with strong concept and a passion and the drive within yourself. There is nothing a teacher can do to have you accomplish that and it has to be within you. A teacher can point out tools and point to directions, but it's about that passion and becoming a workhorse and again nothing fancy. It's just hard work. I appreciate your videos because you are pointing out some awesome facts. I could never articulate like you, or my head would explode. It's pretty astounding that you can do this and willing to put that information out there.
Damn! Great comment! So many things running through my mind as a result of your comment. I appreciate you. Stay strong, and heartfelt thanks for your kind words 🙏
I heard John Mayer say once that you shouldn’t learn guitar, you should learn music. My instinct was the same as joshuas. I just wanted to learn my favorite avett brothers song/where to put my fingers on the frets to do so. I never thought about learning music.
In my experience, there are two types of artworks One can produce: spiritual or commercial.
When you distill those, it becomes either an Individual Pursuit of some manner of Fulfillment, or becoming a Slave to the Grind kina scenario.
I also think that most artists just struggle in a Limbo of In-Between the two States of Being. Often not moving in any direction whatsoever.
So they quit. Or become jaded < this state is the worst imo.
Artistic pursuits are simply a War of Attrition waged Within (and Against) Ourselves.
Great work as always. The riff on Oedipus hit home for sure. Its so great how you were able to flesh out all that info and references for me to learn about just by discussing a similar topic. I am currently going down on Godfrey Reggio hole right now....I think what you said about knowing your fathers is very profound.
Idk if this is related but im only on this channel and now learning about Godfrey by a fluke chance. If one artist didnt talk about another and another, then pointed me towards this channel and so on. So i guess to your point about learning from the masters and history I would say it really is a incredible way to learn
You're going down on Godfrey Reggio? Ew.
I'm beginning to realize my approach to learning and school has been different than a lot of other people. I had this thought the other day that I actual never "learned" programming but just got obsessed with it and would just never sleep until I understood how to do a particular thing (when we were "learning programming" In class I would just be trying to do the next chapter in the book or something, this was in an "interactive design class" and not a computer science class if that wasn't clear). That's just kinda how I approach most things. I think people like that will benefit from school despite not learning discrete skills; which I also had. For example I had an etching class where a lot of that was just learning techniques. I think the danger is that someone looking for validation and really diving in can get "indoctrinated" into artspeak and the "art world's approach." I don't mean that in a Fox News kind of way but that being around that environment can make you exclude people who are not. The realization I've had is something like the term "modernity" which actually means totally different things in painting, literature, design, architecture, etc. and how I used to internally cringe when people would call "contemporary art" "modern." Took me a long time to realize the term is just ineffective and when you correct people you're just trying to make them an outsider. I don't think that is necessarily on purpose, but really took me a long time to try and deprogram the some of the stuff art school had imprinted upon me.
i graduated from scad and my entire program was copying works. i wrote many many imitative pieces from abraham lincolns four scores to joan didion, using style to write ~original~ works
What program was it?
it was creative writing. the entire writing department used that model. every class from fiction to essay writing used copying the style of masterworks to make our own work. they were called imitative pieces
Noooooooooooooo! Why did this conversation have to end?!? Damn. Fricking cliffhangers!
I think performance without comparing is taught in music but not in visual arts because there's a language for that. Notes, tabs, written lyrics... There's nothing like that for drawing, painting etc. And recording of the process is a recent phenomenon and fossilized schools never do anything recent.
I have thought about this a bit and it talks about the what a lot but I keep thinking about the why. Why do people in visual arts not want to work in the tradition of. I am still thinking of this. It is nice to see you online.
Computer scientists all write certain programs for practice. How many people wrote BigInt or viginere's cipher, dikstras algorithm or the karatsuba. For the extremely brave, rijndael's algorithm.
We translate τύραννος as "rex" because while in Greek τύραννος meant "ruler of a polis, absolute ruler," but when the word was borrowed into Latin as tyrannus, the meaning shifted to "illegitimate ruler." And was further hardened as the French tyrant (from which we get our English word). So, no, τύραννος does not mean what we mean by "tyrant" in English, and it would be a mistranslation to render it in English (or even Latin) with the etymological ancestor word. And debating the nuances of the modern English word is actually irrelevant.
GREAT comment!!!
Gee when I learned to draw, I started out tracing with tracing paper. I figured if I could I could move my hand to trace, there was nothing wrong with hand. I thought everyone started out tracing.
The basic premise of the presentation was that visual artists are required to create masterpieces without actually knowing what the hell they’re doing. Most visual artists don’t know composition. I’ve been making art for almost 55 years and to be honest it’s usually hit or miss. Only in the last 10 years under extreme life, threatening duress, have I went back and learned the stuff that I did not learn in art school. And the reason I didn’t learn it is because they didn’t teach it. I’m not talking about the business side which no art school teaches, i’m talking about basic stuff like the grid method, what is the difference between a fan brush a filbert a round and a flat. And hundreds of other small techniques that come together with traditional painting and drawing. On top of that digital art has taken over the commercial art space for the last 40 years and now a I will put millions of artists out of work.
I agree regarding the things we should know/have been taught and what we dont know. My entire adult life has been filling in the gaps in my education.
35:57 I compared this statement to a scientist insisting they should start from scratch to maintain purity
precisely. It's ridiculous.
Ateliers art training has the student start his practice by doing nothing but direct copies out of master print books. Have you ever heard of that school? It seems as though they already have what you’re hinting at in this video.
huh?! do artists in education not do figure drawing? anatomy studies? copies of photos or other works? how is this not building repertoire?
No. They don’t. Have you been to art school?
Yes, they do.
Master copy and compositional studies from high-quality imagery are used throughout the curriculum in most art schools all the time, as is figure drawing, anatomy etc.
There was a conceptual move away from focusing on craft for a period of time, but it has swung back or at least there are options in terms of the type of art school one goes to.
There are art schools that do not but I know for certain that they are a minority.
For those who do not have these experiences in college that is a serious disservice to them.
**The explanation of the purpose of master copy and building repertoire was explained really well here. Much appreciated.
I teach as a visiting lecturer for several fine arts faculties in Europe and Asia, and I also teach Walt Disney artists. Most art schools in Europe do not teach even the most rudimentary processes of painting. The professors themselves cannot paint, let alone teach painting - especially in the UK. In many of these institutions, classical art is even mocked. Unfortunately, even the so called 'life drawing lessons' are unattended and only serve to cement bad habits and poor drawing methods. Things seem to be swinging back, but it's a far cry away from the level that these institutions claim to possess.
Only if you get lucky with a good professor, but usually not
Penis Woo Woo Baba Korain
This sums up art school nicely, actually.
Blablablablabla