Inventory in progression fantasy is definitely a thing, but it is usually described as an extra dimensional bag, or sometimes a “soul space” rather than being an entry on a stat sheet.
Storage ring is another I've seen in cultivation - no idea if that's a direction translation or the common term within the sub-genre though. But it all amounts to a Bag of Holding and I doubt it's a new concept in any way.
@@jonevansauthor Storage ring is what pretty much all translators of xianxia/xuanhuan uses, so it's most likely a direct translation. Pretty much all webnovels in the genre uses them. And they usually have limited space. You gotta fork over some serious cash if you want greater inventory space in the rings. Though most MC's usually stumbles across a ring with some serious storage capacity early on.
"Carl, CARL! They're talking about us again!" -Donut, probably Andrew Rowe's Arcane Ascension series was Progression Fantasy but it was a stepping stone to accepting the idea of LitRPG and I'm glad it did.
Rowe wrote a stand alone LitRPG Novella titled 'How to Defeat the Demon King in 10 Easy Steps' I read a lot of LitRPG and that still easily stands out as my favorite.
progression fantasy: stories focused around a character/characters getting stronger and more powerful. Litrpg: Similar thing but you have an RPG-esque rules and stats to show exactly how much the character has "progressed" it gets way more complicated when you bring in gamelit, crunchy litrpg, creamy litrpg, Wuxia, Xianxia, KIngdom building stories, etc, but basically progression fantasy is kind of an umbrella term for it all.
yeah, I'd also consider progression as the umbrella term rather than a separate genre. Basically: progression fantasy: the character is grinding to get more powerful. How so? LitRPG: numbers go up on the character sheet cultivation (wuxia/xianxia): meditation and martial arts training. kingdom building: accumulating wealth and political influence technological uplift: same as before, but with science. magical school: doing your homework. time-loop: repetition is the mother of learning cosy fantasy: make friends, and usually own a small business. portal fantasy: the protagonist comes from another world might use knowledge from our world, certainly has to learn the way their new world works. almost all those can combine and overlap, except for those that are mutually exclusive, and be expanded upon and twisted about. there are stories where people are born in a world where there is a magical character sheet. there are ones where the system arrives out of nowhere and provokes the apocalypse. still, if your story has a more than 20% training montages, or has mid challenge powerups, or a tournament arc, it is progression fantasy.
While I agree with the genera sentiment I would look at LITRPG and Progressin Fantasy as seperate overlaping genres. Basically the same as Isekai and LitRPG in the Video. There is a significant space in LitRPG for stories revolving around characters that are part of the system but do not progress. This is in my opinion as far from Progression Fantasy, as a storry following Gandalf during the events of the Hobbit.
Dungeon Crawler Carl has pulled me out of a reading slump single handedly this year. Fun funny and not overly philosophical like most fantasy and sci fi books right now. It’s just a roaring good time.
Well then maybe or maybe not checkout He Who Fights With Monsters. Excellently funny but Boy howdy does Jason like to hear himself speak and if he can get off his high horse it's usually he can stand on a soap box. (this sounds negative but I still like the books and Jason as a character)
I will add my recommendation as well. If Jason doesn't strike you as a great character in this series one of the others probably will. Strangely enough, Jason isn't always the favorite character in this series despite being the protagonist. This series author did some worldbuilding before he started writing, as I believe the author of Dungeon Crawler Carl also did before beginning to write. The Wandering Inn, though, is one I think the author started writing with just a premise and did zero worldbuilding before writing. They've (yes, it is now written by more than one author) been doing the worldbuilding as they go along. Like Indiana Jones does in his adventures, they're "making it up as they go." But they're all easy to read.
This genre has both pulled me out of a literary slump and a personal writing slump. Also the audio book side of the genre with voice actors like Heath Miller has replaced my struggle with the podcast space by replacing it with fantastic audio for my long drives and such.
Appreciate the little shoutout to Ascendance of a Bookworm in the beginning. 100% the best isekai ever and my personal favourite fantasy story of all time
I'm not sure if Sufficiently Advanced Magic is litRPG.... But it is def Progression fantasy.his book how to defeat a demon King in 10 easy steps is definitely litRPG though.
Defiance of the Fall, Primal Hunter, Azarinth Healer, He who fights with Monsters, Completionist Chronicles, Dungeon Crawler Carl, Awaken online, Divine Dungeon are my favorites. Whenever a new book is released in any of those it immediately shoots to the top of my TBR. Honorable mention: How to defeat the Demon king in 10 easy steps (nice short stand alone zelda inspired)
@sabrinas2896 sure thing! My tastes align pretty heavily with Daniel's (wheel of time, cosmere, one piece, bobiverse, expanse, etc. etc. etc.) so here are some you might like that I haven't seen him cover. (most of these aren't litrpg, but could argue they fit into progression Fantasy) NPC's Series by Drew Hayes - litrpg adjacent (Gamelit?), D&D inspired, imagine the lives of NPC's when the players aren't around Super Powered Series by Drew Hayes - basically my hero academia but way better. Can't recommend this enough. Villains series by Drew Hayes - Set in a different universe than super powered, league of villians/antiheros with really cool powers, fights, ect Spellmonger series by Terry Mancour - Wizard fights goblins, not Litrpg but could argue its progression fantasy The Land series by aleron kong - one of the best litrpg until it falls off incredibly hard in book 8. just stop at book 7 and you'll have a good time Heartstrikers series by Rachel Aaron - great dragon POV/urban fantasy series with really cool worldbuilding and magic system Detroit Free Zone Series by Rachel Aaron - Spin off of the heart-striker series, not quite as good but if you like heart-strikers you will like this Magic 2.0 series by Scott Meyer - I stopped around the 5th book but its fun, kind of Isakai ish tropes, but with some fun nerdy stuff in there. Some good nerd humor
A lot of Lit-RPGs start out as webnovels that you can read for free online. The Wandering Inn, Dungeon crawler Carl and He who fights with monsters all started off there. I remember skipping them then because they were not my cup of tea, but I'm happy they found wider success. Still, there are many many more stories for just about anyone that carry the Lit-RPG tag. Fantesy, sci-fi and fanfictions for just about any fandom. A personal recommendation that will most likely never come out in print due to copyright issues is Ghost in the City by Seras, which is a story set in the world of the cyberpunk game.
Royal Road is a great place to find lots of aspiring authors and hobbyist storytellers putting up their own works in this genre right now. And they are all looking for followers, feedback, reviews, and general public engagement. Go visit them when you have a chance.
@@StarlitSeafoam To clarify, Seras does self-insert isekai so the protagonist is from the real world and is incarnated in to the world of Cyberpunk 2077. The Ghost in the Shell stuff is, as Namacil said, an intentional reference made by the character that no one else in the world gets. Seras' stuff is super sweet and comfy if you're looking for that, I'm personally a fan.
Lit rpg has been popular in Chinese Manhua and Korean Manwha for a long time. The Gamer and Only I Level Up (or as it's more popularly known, Solo Leveling) are some examples. Murium Login, Overgeared, and the like are also some popular examples. The best one in my mind is probably SSS Class Sucicide Hunter - which is probably the best one I've read from a quality standpoint, though I recommend reading the light novel if you want a more literary detail, but the Manwha is also very good. Outside of that, villianness manwha is also very good, with Death Is The Only Outcome For The Villainess being my favorite. More in line with a sorta Isekia spin is Academy Student Extras Guide, which is phenomenal in its own right with its art and characters.
@kadan8457 meh, happens mate. Still, got any good recommendations? Most of the stuff I'm reading is pretty samey at the moment, and my backlog is looking like something outta Lovecraft
Those aren't exactly old in genre terms. They started publication a decade ago. A game of thrones is considered a knew fantasy storry defining the genre and it hasn't published a book since eather of those began publishing.
@@rantalmoreI have only read the 3 first books of Cradle and although I do like the third book most it still has a lot of the elements and concepts from the two previous book. So if someone doesn't like those elements or concepts then I doubt they would like the third book neither
I have finished the series and boy is it worth it. The beginning books are a bit slower, but stakes are insane by the end. Will does an amazing job of MCs fighting world-ending horrors without losing hope. Also, turtle dragon. So good.
People can have different tastes, that’s fair! I have had a friend who didn’t initially enjoy it and then completely fell in love with it on a second pass. Also, this is one of those times where the audiobook elevates the experience, Travis Baldree’s voice acting is spectacular throughout.
LitRPG is *usually* (but not strictly) a subgenre of progression fantasy, at least so far as the various communities who are most into those two emerging genres would consider it. Progression fantasy is about, well, _progress_. It's about the characters getting stronger and facing more and more challenging opponents, with power creep being more of a feature than a bug. Its roots come more from Shounen anime (especially like DBZ), but could also reasonably include Harry Potter (as a core part of the story is Harry learning new spells and becoming a better wizard). It also includes subgenres like xianxia/cultivation, which takes even more cues from DBZ and Eastern fantasy, but mostly cares about whether the protagonist's main means of overcoming challenges is getting intrinsically stronger. LitRPG is any story where the powers are internally viewable as an in-universe stat sheet. Technically, it doesn't need any progression elements at all to be a litRPG, so long as the characters are capable of looking at an in-universe representation of their abilities, that's litRPG. There's a sort of sub-parallel genre to litRPG which is _GameLit_, which for a while was a competing term to litRPG but eventually fell into a sort of space where skills and such may _exist_, but they don't feature very prominently and you might never see a stat screen at any point. Now, obviously the venn diagram of Progfantasy and LitRPG includes heavy overlap, but they do each have their own levels of overlap and fuzziness. HWFWM, for example, is a litRPG within a Progfantasy world thanks to Jason's unique Interface ability. Without Interface, that would be a progression fantasy. Similarly, you could have a litRPG without progression fantasy, where the main story isn't about getting stronger but the characters know their exact abilities, but those are rarer outside of stories that are specifically about someone in a litRPG world who is either uninterested or incapable of engaging in the more typical progression fantasy elements (and even those are quite rare). The numbers, once present, nearly always go up. Neither Progfantasy nor litRPG includes 'inventory' like effects inherently, but they're pretty common in both, but the more common manifestation thereof is as an item that can hold more items than normal (your bags of holding or storage rings).
The one thing I want to "Um actually" for those who are less familiar about the topics from this. Is that Dragon Ball was inspired by and based on Wuxia fantasy. Taking the concept and simplifying it -- while also popularizing it for Japan and later the world. [Though DBZ style story writing is drastically different enough from Wuxia that I would really consider them totally different genres. Like Sci-fi And Sci-Fantasy].
@@DragonMasterGold I would also question the idea of Harry Potter as PF; while he DOES learn more spells, he doesn't actually get much "stronger" throughout the series. One of the major points of the final conflict is that he *doesn't* win because of "Awesoma Powa!", but because of an understanding of the situation that he can use to his advantage (much like Luke Skywalkers' victory in RotJ); if Harry HAD tried to fight Voldemort directly...he just would have been almost instantly killed. This is one of my issues with the movie, where they felt they had to give the audience an exciting battle, however little sense it would make, instead of the anti-climactic note the scene really ends on... EDIT: Now, Dresden Files, otoh, may be a good example of ProgFantasy, right?
I guess Earthsea, or any series with the magic school trope, would fit, too. Or The Many Colored Land series - ordinary people gaining and developing crazy strong psychic powers of different kinds over the series.
Xianxia (and wuxia) are not always progression fantasy. That should be made clear. They are massive genres that overlap with tons of stuff, including progression. But Xianxia is, in my experience, quite often not progression fantasy, especially if you start looking at dramas and movies. Plus it as a genre, along with wuxia, have a crazy long history in China that pre-dates progression fantasy.
I wonder where you got these definitions from. All of litrpg is a subgenre of progression fantasy. These litrpg without progression must the most boring litrpg ever written.
Powerfantasy with a hefty sprinkle of new age sword and sorcery with a lot more variety and imagination in the abilities the protagonists have and their enemies possess. If you've read one, you've read a looooooot. Very fun. I will say one of the most interesting things about the genre is that a lot of authors in it are intensely young. Like 16-23 years old in comparison to other genres where everyone's at least in their 30's.
There's a lot of great litRPG in Korean webnovels and Manhwa. Solo leveling is probably the most popular, but is also very much a straight play on the tropes. Once you know the genre a bit, I would recommend Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint, a litRPG fan has his favorite webnovel come to life in the real world, and he happens to be the only person who read the 3,000 chapter long webnovel to the end. It's an amazing exploration of a reader's connection to a story and characters, and the ending breaks the 4th wall (Heh, iykyk) in the most heartbreaking way. Honestly anyone who feels like books have changed their life, or identifies with the word "reader" should 100% read it, until the end, I beg thee.
For those really fiending for more lit-rpg style series, the commonly referred to "system" series in manhwa are very similar, and there are a crazy amount of them to choose from
Yes! I consume the majority of my Lit-RPG and isekai in manhwas more than books, I loved solo leveling (can't wait to see the adaptation) tho I don't talk about the time travel stuff I stopped there. Kill the hero is also really good and is complete! (choker I know)
YES!!!! Solo Leveling, which has a anime, would probably one of if not the most well known right now. While good, I vastly preferred The World After the Fall. It's already getting very dark but I find I really like the way it's going and Solo Leveling I'm still on the fence on despite reading now four volumes. Two others I'm looking at currently are Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint and SSS-Class Revival Hunter.
@@ElizaBlakeney I haven't read The world after the fall but I'll add it, also yes! Omniscient is really good, I like it more than solo leveling and want to punch the as**hole of the "hero" every time he appears!
@@ElizaBlakeney omniscient readers viewpoint is in the same world as world after the fall (if you didn't already know that) and I highly recommend suicide hunter/revival hunter. I've read the novels for both of these (which are completed) and they are absolutely fantastic. Suicide hunter specifically being in my top 5, just simply immaculate
I've been listening to almost exclusively LitRPG for the past 2 years. The mix of fantasy and science fiction elements is wonderful. Plus, numbers go brrrr! Dungeon Crawler Carl is in my top 2. The other is the Noobtown series, with The Mayor of Noobtown being book 1. Both of them have plenty of humor as well as heavy emotional moments. The narration work for both is also excellent. Some other suggestions are Wake of the Ravager, Mimic & Me, The Stitched Worlds, Savage Awakening, Big Sneaky Barbarian, Shopocalypse Saga, and Outcast in Another World.
I’m glad this video exists, I always felt bad that I listened to Lit-RPG books,I can’t help but like them, thanks you for your love❤ Edit: One Lit-RPG that don’t really have a quirky explanation is Primal Hunter. I would also recommend Unbound-Dissonance, Ends of Magic, An Outcast in Another World and I’m not the hero
Defiance of the Fall is like crack to me lmao its one of the OG litrpgs and its the perfect pulp action read. It feels just like coming back from school and watching DBZ every day
Yes, DoF is fantastic. I wouldn't say it's the OG, it's not old enough for that, but it's great. Especially in how it marries litRPG to the second great genre of progression fantasy, which is Cultivation stories of Eastern fantasy.
Oof I remember when defiance first dropped. I loked the first book well enough. But I really started to hate the writing in later books. So much breaking the flow of the scene with internal Exposition. Like him just sneaking down a hall way has him going on a multy page Monolog about how magic works.
I also loved it for a looooong time. Got to book 9 and then I got over to. 9 books was a too long a trek for me, I really like it when books end. I need closure 😂 but yeah it's a great series I'm currently reading `He who fights monsters` book 11 and I'm getting the same feeling
@rantalmore and that's fine. I just think if he wanted to do that introspection he should wait for down time. Not during his sneaky sneak spot. Or in the middle of a fight. For me it breaks the tension of the scene. I love slow story's full of thoughts and dialog... just don't Interrupt high stress spots with it.
Thanks Daniel to bring your P.O.V on the genre. As an avid reader of litRPG for more than 3 years and a longtime fan of sci-fi fantasy literature, it is nice to see this new genre being recognized as more than a niche trend on the web. LitRPG help me reignite my passion for reading.
I'm an author in the genre, a small one sure, but still have some unique perspective on it, and maybe a bit more of behind the scenes information. One thing I wanted to make a comment on is that while there isn't any set definitions, so there will always be debates about it, but imo Progression Fantasy is an umbrella genre with litRPG within it. Progression fantasy just boils down to, the core beating heart of it, is that in order for a plot to move forward, the character has to grow in power, or progress in ways that's integral to the character. Part of why Legends and Lattes, outside of Travis Baldree being perhaps the most notable narrator in the genre, has a lot of weight in PF and litRPG spaces is because there is a progression there. The coffee shop gaining more items for sale, is the progression. What makes litRPG under the umbrella of PF, is just that the progression is numerically tracked through some kind of "system".
I think it is still just overlapping genres. The defining features are (in my opinion) independent. Is a LitRPG still progression fantasy if none of the characters involved achive any change in their "status" during the storry?
Very interesting! I was about to ask if cosy PF could exist, I've read legends and lattes and didn't click with me. Also I'll appreciate a shameless promo of your book (if you want) so I can get my little goblin claws all over it =)
@@claasmachens3858 I believe it is, but not in the conventional sense. A fantasy book that parodies/satirizes fantasy, is still just that, fantasy. All of the trappings and set dressings are there, but that refusal to work with it is a stylistic choice. To go back to my parody comment, someone who doesn't know the genre, while still able to enjoy the book, just won't understand the full breadth of it. It's like Discworld. It's a great series by itself, but if you've never read another fantasy series, there's a lot that's going to be missed. The choice to refuse genre themes, needs to still involve those themes or it means nothing. So a series about someone who has access to a magic system but refuses to use it, requires that system to be there in order to refuse it in the first place
@@per-c8229 Yeah, I really loved L&L, but totally get why it's not everyone's cup of tea... Or coffee I guess lol. And I definitely appreciate the ask! I feel like you'd have a harder time not hearing about someone's book once they've mentioned they're an author. The series is called Crimson Hydra, with only 1 book out at the moment, Gene Harvest, with book 2 only being a month or two away! It's published through Portal books, a small print publisher and available on Amazon and Audible
@@JoshuaRettew But if we reduce the requierments so far, it only has to be possible for characters to need to progress to advance the storry, which book does not fall within that genre? If I write a storry were an actress and a Pop Musician meet each other in weird circumstances, find each other hot and proceed to go through their regular lives without meeting each other ever again that might be a parody of romance tropes, but is no longer a romance. Edit: I realised only upon reread, that you assume the person has access but does not use the LitRPG system. My example works just as well for someone that has reached the maximum level in everything the System offers, before the storry began (which was what I had in mind).
The Path of Ascension is a good example of a series that could be LitRPG or Progression Fantasy. It has levels, but to gain a level, you must acquire an unspecified amount of essence from killing monsters or crafting and add it to your own.
I've been on a years-long progression fantasy kick, and I can't wait for it to really find its wings. Thanks for covering it! One of my favorites is Will Wight's debut series, the Traveler's Gate trilogy, a series about a nobody kid from the same village as his world's "chosen one." It has a great balance of grit, action, humor, and humanity. It also has a standalone collection of beautiful short stories that illustrate the interconnected worlds of the series. My current favorite litRPG series is Zaifyr's All the Dust That Falls tetralogy, which just recently concluded. It's about a wholesome Roomba named Spot who is summoned from Earth by mistake and is confused for a powerful demon. The series handles heavy themes with humor, grace, and action. Great heroic power progression. I also can't recommend enough an odd book, even among progression fantasy: a beefy standalone novel called Butler to a Core Lord, by Paul Perk. A dark, tense, action-filled mystery full of time travel and twists so shocking they rattled deep in my soul. The magic system is an interesting one based on deck-building. I could keep going, but I'll stop here :D
How about the long-running webcomic *The Order of the Stick*? It's explicitly in a *Dungeons & Dragons* world where the characters have stats and levels and whatnot (and a running gag for a long time where the Wizard's familiar would pop in and out of existence when it was remembered to exist). But, there are no "players" - it's part of the Venn diagram outside of the Isekai bubble as the world is what's "normal" to everybody involved. We don't see stats explicitly, but we know that the world operates on the familiar game rules to the point where readers on the official forums attempt to reverse-engineer character sheets due to what we know the characters are capable of.
Litrpg doesn't need to be a game and doesn't need players. Many litrpg stories take place in a world where the system is just the way things work and it's real life, not a game.
Thanks for the great video! Based on your recommendation, I just started Dungeon Crawler Carl, and it's terrific. I usually get the kindle book + the audiobook and the narration and performance of the audiobook is great, including some great techniques for different character voices. Really happy I stumbled upon this video. Thanks for the helpful recs!
In 1983 Joel Rosenburg published "The Sleeping Dragon" - the first book in his "Guardians of the Flame" series. One of the best early precursors to LitRPG.
For anyone looking to check out the LitRPG genre, He Who Fights With Monsters is a well written great starting point. 11 books out currently. It's one of the most popular series in the genre and, while no book/series can please everyone, it's widely recommended to anyone who hasn't read it yet. It's the series I use as an entry point for people who don't generally read but are into gaming in any fashion or form. Edit: The audio book narration is excellent in this series as well.
Main character is a liberal snob with no growth. Dungeon Crawler Carl probably the better litrpg for dummies series, though personally I thought it dry and boring.
@@Edog1337 If you think Jason has no growth you either didn't get very far into the series or didn't quite follow what you were reading. One of that series' strong points is that the main character is heavily impacted by the things he goes through.
Thanks for making this video. As LitRPG grows because folks like you put info out there and plug it, I think the quality and depth of the stories will also improve even more. I hope you check out at least some of the following as you explore: - Life Reset by Shemer Kuznitz, - Jakes Magical Market by JR Matthews - Viridian Gate Online by James Hunter - The Land by Aleron Kong - Archemi Online by James Osiris Baldwin - The Completionist Chronicles by Dakota Krout
The “Alone Against” series has the reader make a character sheet using Call of Cthulhu TTRPG rules. You then read the book and make skill (dice) rolls and based on the outcome you turn to different pages. Different but similar and fun!
Yeah this video confused me, by his descriptions I thought LitRPG were like TTRPG gamebooks like Alone Against series, but it seems like they are just stories where the characters inhabit a RPG-like world and they level up, have stats etc but you, the reader are not a player of the game and don't make any rolls or decisions.
Thank you for covering this! I actually first heard about LitRPG when I was asking for recs on what turned out to be other genres/ideas (the first time was interactive fiction/CYOA/gamebooks and the second time when I asked about recs for books that reminded people of certain video games, which I get the similarities), so I appreciate your explanation here. It made a lot more sense. I have been enjoying Dungeon Crawler Carl so far and am looking for other LitRPGs to get into. Also would love to see other genre deep dives like this. A video on gamebooks and CYOA would be awesome!
Progression Fantasy isn't necessarily incompatible with lit rpg. The people who coined the term Progression Fantasy wanted it to be something of an umbrella term for fantasy stories where one of the core appeals is seeing a character progress, grow, or advance in power or in the magic system. So in that way it could be argued lit rpg is a subgenre of Progression Fantasy. As for recommendations for lit rpg. Steeet Cultivation by Sarah Lin. Pretty much anything by RavensDagger. The Ripple System by Kyle Kirron.
Most often when progression fantasy actually acknowledges levels, skills, etc., but don't show it, it is called litRPG lite. Another progression fantasy genre that generates stories with a huge word count, it is cultivation stories.
@@kervaak I thought dungeon core stories were a subgenre of litrpg? I mean, dungeons are pretty quintessentially game elements, and those stories, from what I've seen, often operate within a setting with a system?
I find recommendations like "the best" difficult to follow up on, because when exploring a genre the reader goes through similar steps as the genre itself. You have some early examples, then popularity explodes and the genre is defined. Much of LitRPGs roots lies in stories about people being in, trapped in or playing a (scifi-VR) game. It's a genre that appeals to the giant gamer demographic while being similarly addictive as other Progression Fantasy. Following the stories that blew up are a bunch of imitators, some of which rise above their inspiration and establish their names by bringing unique ideas or cultural understandings to the genre. The genre mixes with related genres and spreads out into more settings. That's where we get classic Isekai LitRPG where either a game world becomes real or the protagonist is transported to a world that just has game elements as part of its nature. Then, of course, we get novels that just play in such worlds, no isekai required. And we get related genres like Dungeon Core novels or TCG systems that use elements of other game genres. Some authors begin a deeper exploration of what the System would mean for a society, bringing better worldbuilding and birthing the System Apocalypse subgenre, where the LitRPG elements are forcefully introduces to Earth. Also, a second generation of stories appears that challenges, inverts and/or subverts the tropes of the first wave. Parodies of popular tropes only make sense once a genre is established, and after some time even the parodies can be reacted to again. Here we see more realistic Systems, evil Systems or Systems made and exploited by hostile parties, novels with several (maybe competing) systems etc., basically a lot of meta-discussion of the RPG mechanics. And I'm not even getting into the game design behind the LitRPG mechanics. A new reader usually enters via a solid power fantasy based LitRPG, then reads more of those maybe in their favourite settings. When this becomes boring and repetitive, they branch out to parodies or more complex stories where the LitRPG growth element serves more to get you interested long enough to become invested and then pivots to focus more on plot or characters. They will have preferences in settings or game types. I really enjoyed Vainqueur the Dragon, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who has never played D&D or a similar fantasy TTRPG.
Hi Daniel! I don't often leave comments on writing/genre videos, but given that this is a genre I write in (and obviously read a good bit in), I figured I'd toss in a few thoughts. I think you did a really solid job with breaking down the basics of the genre. And I definitely get where you're coming from with the genre terminology being messy. There's a lot of what I typically call "sister genres", where there are a lot of similarities, but also difference. Progression fantasy honestly sounds like a solid way to describe the group overall though, since the thing that usually ties these similar genres together is the concrete progression of the characters that you don't really get in traditional fantasy. Also, you touched on the humor element, and while I wouldn't say humor is *required* for LitRPG, the genre tends to struggle to assert itself if it takes itself too seriously, if that makes sense. I'm sure it could be done, but generally when series seem to flounder, I find it's because at some point they tried to take themselves too seriously and lost that bit of lighthearted essence. Basically, when the author lets themselves have fun and not take everything 100% seriously, the audience is often willing to do the same, so they don't spend too much time picking apart all the little details and instead just enjoy the ride. I think it's part of what makes LitRPG so addicting to read, the fun ride never stops. The LitRPG genre is certainly growing, and I think you did hit the nail on the head about it needing time to grow and blossom. I love the genre to pieces, but there can also be a lot of same-ness within the genre at times, and I think that's partly due to the fact that these series generally take a long time to write. There's a lot that has to be kept track of on the backend which slows down the writing process, and even more so if it's a series where the system is expanded upon as the series progresses. But I'm sure the variety within the genre will change with time, and I plan to work to be part of that. I draw a lot of inspiration from the korean equivalent of the genre that tends to be urban fantasy, and I worked to blend the two approaches with my own setting. My favorite LitRPG series, and the one I'd most recommend to people, would be Nathan Thompson's Challenger's Call, which I have had really great success with recommending (five successful recommendations thus far). Everyone I recommended it to that actually read it went through the whole thing and got into the genre despite having never read it before. And I have to give the author credit where credit is due, he does an absolutely phenomenal job of creating heroes you want to root for and villains that absolutely need to be wiped out. (The villains are as distressing as they are because while they're absolutely awful people/creatures, they have just enough nuance to them to feel real. It definitely sounds like I ought to give Dungeon Crawler Carl a look too, given the success you've had with getting people into it!
So, this kind of reminds me of the Order of the Stick webcomic; a story wherein the setting runs on the rules of D&D 3.5 (and has previously run on the rules of different editions - the first strip is of the characters being impacted by the rules change between 3.0 and 3.5). This was at first played entirely for laughs, but as the story continued, it has actually become really good. Quirks of the setting include things like the elderly having better senses than the young because of the wisdom buff from aging, and haggling down the price of expensive spell components (such as diamonds for resurrection) making them worthless because the rules state how much you have to pay for them. Of course, you never get to see the character sheets of the cast, which I'm guessing leaves it out of LitRPG, but that's the vibe I'm getting.
I've found litRPGs and Progression Fantasy so addictive that I just consider them candy. They don't push the needle on anything yet, but they feel so good.
Completely agree - It's so addictive. I went down the Lit-RPG rabbit hole and can't find my way out =) When diving into a series you just want to see the progression, Can't wait for the next book. A few series i read/reading and can recommend other than DCC and He who fights with monsters: 1. Emerilia (Book 1 is "The Trapped Mind Project") - really enjoyed the sci-fi Premise 2. All the Skills: A deck building LitRPG - finished the first 3, now about to start book 4 - Very cool design and Intergration of Cards in the worldbuilding. 3. Mark of the Fool - Progression Fantasy so no numbers. 4. Solo Leveling - From Webcomics to Anime series - Very addictive - finished like 6 volumes in quick succession. Most of these i actually listened to with Audible.
Honestly the best explanation for our genre including subtle nuances that make a distinction in our umbrella. The Divine Dungeon Series is like over 25 books long with Artorians Archive and every one of those books is amazing to me
I have found that inventory is story specific. The Good/Bad guys need to use magic bags for inventory, but these are clearly gamified stories. DCC's use of infinite inventory is specific to that story's game mechanics. HWFWM also has an inventory system, but I wouldn't consider it a requirement for the genre.
Lit-RPG/Prog Fantasy recommendations (in no particular order): Azarinth Healer - Rhaegar (Healer) Defiance of the Fall - JF Brink (Axes) The Primal Hunter - Zogarth (Archer) Millennial Mage - JL Mullins (Mage) Jackal Among Snakes - Nemorosus (Mage) The Legend of Randidly Ghosthound - Noret Flood aka puddles4263 (Spears) Ar'Kendrithyst - Arcs (Mage) Hunting and Herbalism - Synonymoose (Druid) Unchosen Champion -JaceVAmor (Knight) Chaotic Craftsman Worships the Cube - probablyaturnip (Blacksmith) Bonus Recommends (Not LitRPG/ProgFan): A Practical Guide to Sorcery - Azalea Ellis (Hard Magic) A Journey of Black and Red - Alex Gilbert (Grimdark Vampires) Beware of Chicken - Casualfamer (Transmigration Farming Cultivation) That should be enough for starters. Edit: Best way for me to define LitRPG vs ProgFan is that its like Hard vs Soft Magic. Hard magic has well defined rules that are explained and expanded upon (LitRPG) vs Soft magic which has a more generalized broad vision of what magic is and does and less on the how (ProgFan); There's obviously overlap and grey areas between the two genres, you could even say that Hard Magic is a subset of Fantasy and Soft magic as a whole that just defines more of its world, but tbh, its just a way to group things in an easier way to point people towards their preferences of styles.
Id say litrpg usually has a System in place. Like a literal System that tells people their lvl ups and changes and whatever and progression fantasy usually has a different way of quantifying a power up. For example they get better spells, get stronger muscles, better reflexes, more mana or whatever they use as a ressource to use their power.
It's generally agreed that the difference between the two lies mostly in how explicit the advancement is, and that, is mostly represented in numbers. Litrpg will say "you are now a level 16 mage" "your skill in fireball is now level 6" "your strength is 37" etc...
I found this particularly interesting because my two forays into the realm of the LitRPG have been Andrew Seiple's Threadbear series and, more recently, Honour Rae's "She of Many Dragons." Both feature the hallmark of the progression fantasy mentioned, but both include either full character sheets or character sheet snippets, complete with numbers, as part of the text presentation. In both, the protagonists are aware of the game mechanics to which they are subjected and take action to increase specific stats to fit their needs. It almost makes me feel like @daniel is reading a different class of LitRPG from me.
Oh maaan. Was about to stop scrolling but then saw this. 100% agreed, its so good. Coming to amazon now too, already 2 or 3 books there officially instead of needing royal road. With audible too! The things that house can do... Scares me lol
I loved seeing Play to Live (Alter World is book 1 of the series) in the thumbnail. I recommended it in another comment and so happy to see it here. Has anyone else read it? I loved how it takes an MMO setting in really interesting ways for a LitRPG, and tackles some really dark concepts about being stuck in a game world. I also recommend 1/2 Prince. The manhua and novel are identical really, I did both expecting to get more from the novel the second time around, but that isnt true. Both are very cool and unique concepts in the LitRPG space.
Also most of the time the states are meaningless. Like there is now difremce showen between having 3 str comapiared to 5 or what changes naratively by a leave unless it's like theb5th or 10 lvl. Like a system that gives them an ability or upgrade every 5 lvls...just makes 4 of the levels pointless. That's why I love the system in the wandering inn. Nearly no numbers or sheets. Lvls feel earned and slow give plenty of time to see the deference. And even if they don't get a new skill all skills get a bit better and it does show up and is used. Not by Erin. She gets alot of crap for not testing and using her skills more and finding there limits. But you see it in many of the other characters.
And for most litRPG stories that is perfectly fine. They certainly overdo those panels, and more often than not the numbers feel rather arbitrary. I love litRPG, but that is certainly my biggest complaints about the genre and that is coming from somebody actively involved in RPGs. Than again, the fact that I know a bit about game mechanics and game design, might make it all the more obvious when the numbers are just tagged on (especially when a MC regularly defeats higher level opponents because reasons). On occassion a series make the wording actually matter, making it effectively a hard magic system, that the characters than have to creatively use to solve a problem or find a loophole in the rules (gaming the system).
This video only confused me more LOL when he said the characters had stats etc - I'm thinking okay these are like those interactive game books and it sounds fun, its only days later after doing some research I'm realizing that's not the case.
Fantastic video Daniel!!! I definitely fell hard into the LitRPG rabbit hole. I have emerged now, but I still go in for a deep dive (3-5 books) now and then.
In my opinion, the biggest release in the genre of the last two years has got to be Super Supportive - which is a superhero litRPG title that pushes the storytelling forward (letting the stats take a back seat), and really lifts the bar for writing quality within the webserial space. Cannot recommend it enough!
Omg that is suuuch a good series. I'm cought up on royal road and I'm just desperately waiting for more chapters lol. I WANT TO SEE HOW THE THANKSGIVING EVENT TURNS OUT lol.
Came acrosss it recently, yeah, it has been some time since I could not stop reading a web novel. I don't think there is an actual E-book/print version of it, right? I mean, you can still read all its 174 chapters on Royal Road, which is ususally an indication it has not been published on Amazon.
recommendation: - "All the Skills: A Deck-Building LitRPG" by Honour Rae -- this one stands out to me because it is based around deck building rather than more familiar LitRPG tropes. - "Beneath the Dragoneye Moons" or "Lotus Lake" by Selkie. Lotus Lake is more humorous and character driven, Dragoneye is more world buildy and more representative of mainline LitRPG. - Cradle series by Will Wight -- ProgFantasy/CultivationFantasy
What i find interesting is how fresh it seems to one group of people is completely the opposite for me after living through a decade plus of isekai destroying the variety of anime to the point its a meme. To me it feels like a whole genre grave yard bearen to death with very little to actually say other than thriving on power fantasies. Perspective i guess. Humans are fun.😅
Progression Fantasy is the sub-genre/trope that you mentioned earlier in the video at 12:01. The basics is that you start at a lower power level and then as the story progresses, so does the character in terms of power. This sub-genre is essentially the butter for the bread that is LitRPGs, where the purpose behind the "systems" in LitRPGs are usually to facilitate the progression aspect; though I've read a few LitRPGs that purposefully avoid the progression fantasy aspect. Another important definition in the genere is the term "system" which has grown to definte whatever wonderful/mystical/RPG-like mechanics that exist in the book. This is important because that system itself can be personified (I particularly like Magic Murder Cube Marine's take on it), it can be antagonistic or helpful to the protagonist (and sometimes only the protagonist), and in other times it can be an unfeeling machine that is intented to be the vehicile for progression. Additionally, quite a few stories are great at executing the opposite of what you described in 10:14 - where the system is a mysterious entity that needs to be solved by both the character and the reader. The author purposefully uses very little LitRPG aspects, but those that are used are incredibly impactful to the story and it's up the characters in that world to actually decipher the meaning of them. I think overall the space has a ton of places to grow and as someone whose been addicted to them for 4 or 5 years now, I'm more than happy to give some recommendations. My personal favorite is Hell Difficulty Tutorial - where they really take grasp of the progression fantasy elements. It is an ongoing fiction, so expect to be on the drip feed for a while once you get to the current content. Another reecommendation is above, Magic Murder Cube Marine, which is a lighter take on the LitRPG aspects but has a much more humorous writing style. I've laughed quite a lot while reading it. It's also ongoing though. Speedrunning the Multiverse is a completed novel and is a very classical progression/LitRPG that is fast-paced enough to actually be completed and goes from level 1 to top level (and how fast it progresses is pivotal in the plot, as shown in the title). It's a completed series so I'd be happy to recommend it. Finally, a recommendation that isn't in the LitRPG genre, but is adjacent is the Prophecy Approved Companion, which follows the NPC side-character that follows the player of a LitRPG. PS: I will die on the hill that it's "LitRPG" and not "LITRPG" or "Lit-RPG".
For a genre defining example of Progression Fantasy, Will Wight's Cradle series was one of if not the series that most folks would point to. It was slightly rough but still intriguing for me in the first book because it's a different world and some things didn't quite feel right, but as it begins to expand from there the series pulled me in. It's a highly recommended series on the subreddit, almost to the point of if you're a fantasy reader and haven't read LotR people would wonder why not. Would recommend. While He Who Fights With Monsters is my top LitRPG recommendation, and Dungeon Crawler Carl is definitely one of the most popular, some other popular series to look at would be: * The Path of Ascension by C. Mantis - Probably my favorite LitRPG series after He Who Fights With Monsters. Very much a progression of power system but with some lovable main characters which is as much as I want to say to avoid spoilers. * Apocalypse Parenting by Erin Ampersand - A more feminine take on the subgenre. A mom of some young kids tries to navigate a Dungeon Crawler Carl-esque apocalypse. Less power fantasy, more trying to pull people together to have a safe community for her kids. It's not massively popular, but I found it to be a refreshing take. * Primal Hunter by Zogarth - Very much a power fantasy. Main character is... a little autistic? It's a fun read, but not as deep as other recommendations here. Popular and enjoyable enough to make this short list. * Defiance of the Fall by JF Brink The First Defier - This series starts fairly normally for the subgenre with our world being integrated into a "system". The power upgrades through the series are pretty high and it leans into some more eastern takes on power and progression. It's fun and long running, and the power levels get pretty crazy as well as the expansion of where the story takes place. It's a very well known and popular series in the subgenre.
Daniel you convinced me a while back to read DCC at some point. Now - I think I might just start it next! Keep up the excellent work (and congratulations to you both)
I started reading DCC bc of your recommendation of it in your video about exciting upcoming releases the rest of this year into 2025 and I picked it up bc the way you talked about it was with similar enthusiasm to how you’ve talked about Murderbot in the past. So far both series have hooked me in immediately and are favorites.
Isekai: A setting (Other world) LitRPG: The Power system has direct RPG elements (Number go up) Progression fantasy: Destribes the focus of the plot (Characters progress through the power system)
I went into The Wandering Inn with the expectation to read it over a couple of years, like Wheel of Time that I read over one Year. Started reading TWI 2 Months ago and am through all the released ebooks and quite a bit into volume 7, probably close to half already. It's perfect to end a day on even when tired, and perfect to start a day on when not yet ready to get out of bed and start working.
I started on them about a year ago, and I've listened to all of the released audiobooks twice (except the newest one). It's definitely not high art but it's mostly cozy with occasional big emotional moments. I am impressed with how fast they are getting the audiobooks out!
Personally I'm not a fan og the genre, becuase things like xp, stats and menus ware but the constrictions the medium of games used in order to simulate an epic adventure, but now the stories are about the simulations and not the real adventures. Now instead of magic with limitedless potential we have rigid systems interacting with each other. I guess I can see why some of the more mecanically minded people whose enjoyment of videogames is based finding quirks on said systems and crafting the most optimal strategies may find enjoyment on theory crafting tactics for the fake games in the stories, but it is just not for me.
Thank you, explanation of "characters have d&d sheets" stuck to me like, what's interesting/fun in that. Joking about fictional character fubbing a roll when something goes wrong is fun, but not if they actually roll. It sounds like reading character going over a menu, like what?
As true as what you say us I think your missing some really really good books that actually use the system or magic system as a narrative tool and actually plot. Some times even a character it's self. The wandering inn uses the a lvling system I think even you would like. Very few numbers, no stats screens. The way the system effects every day life and politics and laws... it truly feels like a real world
@@Ekami-chan I have a suggestion for you before you jump to that conclusion about litRPGs, google The Wandering Inn and just read (for free) on the website the chapters titled “Wistram Days” or just check out the chapters titled “Roots” in volume 10 and see if you enjoy them
my first experience with litrpg was probably a 1/2 Prince fan translation back in 2005. i think Sword Art Online from 2002 is the oldest litrpg that i know about, though it was categorized as isekai for so long folks might not think of it as litrpg. i didn't run into SAO until the mid 2000s. i've been reading webnovels pretty extensively since the early 2000s. i used Chinese webnovels quite a bit when i was learning to read Chinese as well. Dungeon Crawler Carl never really clicked with me because it feels so incredibly similar to several other Chinese webnovels i've read over the years. the sense of humor is the main differentiator for me. DCC is better written and edited to be sure when compared to web novels pumping out multiple chapters per week. for me that sameness is one of the main issues i have with the current litrpg landscape. most published litrpg books i've read either started as a webnovel i've already read or feels like it is the same story as webnovels i've already read. a few of them literally feel like they copy/pasted parts from a few webnovels together and then quickly paraphrased the result. i think if a readers is newish to litrpg it is a great genre that gives a unique feel. most of the novels are written in a very conversation tone and have a pretty low reading level. easy to get into, easy to read and probably familiar if the reader has passing experience with RPG games, tabletop or video.
This video was fantastic, thank you! Cradle and DCC have been some of the most stupidly, stupidly fun times I've had reading, ever. For months I've been steadily looking into new prog fants/litrpg while going through my more trad tbr. I'm so excited to read more in this genre, though I don't expect to ever find something more fun than Cradle.
I began about 4 years ago developing an English Light Novel series as a type of pastiche to isekai, but I wanted to subtly subvert several constant tropes while including my favorites. Now here I am 4 years later rewriting it for the 3rd time as portal fantasy with much less of the isekai/light novel nods while maintaining the overall aesthetic of what appealed to me about those stories. Portal fantasy has existed for a long, long time, one of the earliest being, _The Blazing World_ written by Margaret Cavendish in 1666. While I personally enjoy reading fantasy with RPG elements and an endless amount of skill stats and spreadsheets of things to keep track of, I tend to either stray from it in my own writing, or sprinkle it in in small doses in the world building.
I read all these two and loved them so much I re-read them. I still haven't read the most recent one tho because it had mixed reviews unlike the first 7 books. Also, he hasn't released a new one in the series in a long time
For better or for worse, I have become a connoisseur of LitRPG and Progression Fantasy. It is absolutely true that there's a wealth of self-published work with interesting ideas in DESPERATE need of editing. But I have found a multitude of excellent ones amongst the rough stuff. In addition to He Who Fights with Monsters, some of my all time favorites are: - Warformed: Stormweaver (for a classic YA coming of age take on the genre) - The Path of Ascension (similar YA coming of age) - The System Apocalypse (much grittier) - Alpha Physics (gritty and more human, despite the fantastic powers) - Eight, by Samer Rabadi. This one in particular is an absolute gem that deserves much more attention. Such a novel voice in the genre with a really interesting indigenous perspective. - This Trilogy is Broken (shorter, a fun mix of witty and cheesy)
I'm surprised he didn't mention "Solo" leveling when he was going to talk about a litrpg you've probably heard of. I have never heard of Dungeon Crawler up until this point. I do read litrpgs, but they're usually translations.
Dungeon Crawler Carl has suddenly rose from popularity in book community while solo leveling they probably never heard of, and I don't think daniel would like it at all, considering how poorly written it is but quite fun.
My LitRPG recommendations are: “Ajax’s Ascension” and “Azarinth Healer” for a more standard LitRPG “The Primal Hunter” for a system apocalypse “Syl” by Lunadea for a monster evolution LitRPG “The Dungeon Traveler” for a dungeon core story “Path of Ascension” for a non isekai LitRPG also is a sci-fi fantasy mix
LitRPG is for people who thought Brandon Sanderson didn't suck enough of the magic out Magic 😅 At this point just play a CRPG or read classic science fiction Btw if you dislike this genre, Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is the perfect antidote 💯
Why so negative? It's nice that there are more options for people, you don't need to look down at others for different tastes. I'm sure there is something you like that other people find tiresome.
@@GrifHowe okay but did I characterize the genre? LitRPG *is* in fact for people who want Hard Magic systems so hard that the authors literally quantify it with Stat Block. That's the definition of LitRPG. If you like it, more power to you. But I'm not wrong to say that the selling point of the genre is that it inverts Clarke's Law: any sufficiently quantified magic is indistinguishable from science.
It's so exciting to see so many people reading a genre I've been addicted to for the last two years 😊 DCC was my first and top recommendation If you like LitRPG, I highly recommend KindleUnlimited, and the publisher Aethon Books. There are so many LitRPG books on KU! And you don't have to feel guilty about the amount you're spending cause it's a subscription 😁 I've read probably 10-15 different lit RPG series from Aethon books, and I've enjoyed them all. They also are almost always on KU. I'm currently in the middle of (book 9 out of 13) Beneath the Dragoneye Moons. It's isekai, and progression fantasy. (MC is from our world, and by book 9 is very OP - but in a good way. She has some very interesting restrictions to her power). She is a healer, but she does do other stuff too, especially as the series goes on. If you know/like the healer character from A Wandering Inn, this scratches some of the same itch. Less dark. Still pretty gory at times.
Try out Path of Ascension by C Mantis. It is really great. Its less LitRPG and more progression fantasy without a heavy system but the Series and the Worldbuilding is really good. It turns a lot of the Tropes of the Genre on its head. The Empire that governs the Protagonists world, actually cares about the people and Laws prevent strong, advanced cultivators from just doing whatever the fuck they want. Its great because the Protagonist doesn't want to break the system but is actively helping it and working towards the goals of making life better for the people who don't have magical powers. All the while still satisfying the reader by making sure the Protagonist and his friends (among them a cute Arctic-Fox that also is a frost mage) advance and become stronger.
It's Progression fantasy as the umbrella genre name(and subreddit). Then narrower niches like Litrpg, Culvtivation, Wuxia, Isekai, Portal fantasy, System Apocolypse, Reincranation, Dungeon Core, OP MC, and etc. Please reach to some of the author in the genre, or read the stickies there to get a good breakdown as this Video muddles terms a bit.
Note that different groups of fans tend to use slightly different definitions for the same genres/subgenre words. It is always a good idea to clarify the definition you use in any discusssion about this ;) I mean, the light novel fan group I regularly talk with would never call isekai/portal/reincarnation a subgenre of progresssion fantasy, simply because there are too many example of where this not the case. I mean, the whole villainess sub-genre rarely has any kind of power progression going on, but is most definitely more often than not isekai/reincarnation based (although time loops are in vogue right now). Mind you, villaines stories like My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom! muddy the waters even more since they take place in a "game", it just happens to be a dating game/visual novel one, so no stats, but plenty of references to tropes from said games.
@@pietersleijpen3662 That's fair. I'm saying this as an Author/Reader of the genre back on Moonlight forums. You can definitely get lost in the weeds of it but commercially. E.g. an audience like Daneils, I found the Progressin fantasy brush a more fitting one. Light novels imo are a genre on it's own, same with translated novels and Chinese novels. It's a pretty small genre but growing massively.
I've been waiting for years for daniel to get into this genre. Even if he didn't care for my personal favorite series, i'm just happy to have him share his thoughts on some of these popular books and authors.
Right. I really wish he would read more Wandering Inn. There is so much there I think he would love. I'm re reading the first book and I just finished the fish part in the beginning. And I can see what he was saying about it being a bit much but also... I found it very important. The struggles to be self sufficient. To get food. Such a simple task and in such a simple a familiar way. Catch fish, gut, cook, eat... and showing it through the lense of a lost. Inexperienced and scared person. The fish is alien, with alien bugs, the hopeless feeling of failing to do this seemingly easy task leading to her cutting her self, and the pain of that cut for the following seems adding just another depressing reminder of her failing... and she's scared. It all adds to the feeling of clueless struggle, of Isolation fear.... and that she never gave up. It felt very very grounded to me which made me so invested in her
I've been reading LitRPG and Progression fantasy since they kicked off on the internet with the first "big" hit of "The Land" (which i DO NOT recommend) in 2015. Over the years there have been some amazing titles and i've put down below a few recommendations: - The Divine Dungeon - Imagine reading a DND book, but the main character is the dungeon itself! And the premise is that it wants to attract adventurers with loot but kill them to level up, whilst protecting its dungeon core from destruction. Really good humour on this one and it was a nice change of pace. - Warformed Series - Another example without the ISEKAI element - Here we follow the war between Earth and an alien race. Earth's only chance are cybernetic enhancements ("rigs") which enable people to fight the aliens and give them unique weapons and classes. The main character is given such a rig but it starts with F rank stats and S rank in growth. It sounds like a very generic description but the execution is superb and it is very fun to read if you like progression fantasy in particular. - Wandering Inn - What ACTUALLY happens if you go to another world. Main character becomes an inkeeper, with secondary character a messenger (postman). They struggle with everyday things like getting tampons and sanitary towels / toilet paper, making money to feed themselves etc. Best character development and world building i've read (yes, including the classics). - The Primal Hunter - Apocalypse Event with a system enforced and leveling. This one is for the power fantasy fans out there. - Defiance of the Fall - Similar to the above, but if you are also fan of cultivation and the Xanxia and Wuxia genres. - The Wraith's Haunt - An interesting DND inspired series where the main character becomes a Dungeon Lord and fights the "light". I've read many more, so put a comment if you want my opinion on anything else or a recommendation. Also, keep in mind that He Who Fights with Monsters becomes thrash after a certain point, but definitely check out the first 2 - 3 books.
I am not a fan of lit-rpg or progression fantasy. Great for people who like to write and read it, but it doesn't interest me in the least. Gaming to me is a tactile thing and when I game, I don't necessarily pay attention to stats unless I need to. And given I used to raid on World of Warcraft, that's not something I personally want to read when I can just play a game that gives me the actual experience. And you would think progression fantasy would be more appealing and it's not. I don't particularly like power fantasy of any kind. I don't care about characters getting stronger and gaining more. It's not interesting to me. And often times, lit-rps especially, falls into wishfulfilment. And wishfulfilment isn't fun unless you share into the wish.
The last sentence in your comment proves that it is a matter of author skill instead of a fault of the genre per se that makes you uninterested. An author needs to make you care for the MCs development and put you in a position where you are rooting for them to succeed because you can empathize with them as a human being first.
My first foray into this genre was "How to Defeat a Demon King in Ten Easy Steps" by Andrew Rowe. It's a clear send up to Zelda, so if that's your thing it's a fun read and one that is very quick. The upcoming anime "The Red Ranger Becomes an Adventurer in Another World" seems to be blending these two genres as it is an isekai where a Super Sentai (Power Ranger) character is transported to a fantasy world. It still has explicit RPG mechanics, but the two world's systems are completely different and it is where a lot of the humor comes from. For example, the mage from the RPG world is constantly amazed by the fact that explosions happen behind the red ranger when he poses. Also, the red ranger's powers explicitly run on friendship and the bonds that form between people, so they have to learn to get along with one another very quickly. The manga is available on the Manga Up! app, which I think is garbage but I read the first few chapters and got a lot of enjoyment out of it. I hope the anime becomes popular and we get a physical release of the manga.
LitRPG recommendations: Everybody Loves Large Chests - LitRPG with a Mimic protagonist - fun, but a bit gratuitous (not an Isekai) Worth the Candle - Isekai LitRPG where a GM is in a post-post-apocalypse future of his various D&D games mashed together (close enough description) Azarinth Healer - Isekai LitRPG. I feel the first 2-3 arcs are good, but it's a staple Blue Core - Isekai LitRPG, protagonist is a dungeon. non-LitRPG progression recommends: Mother of Learning - a mage student gets good through a repeating time loop, but problems ensue. This Used to be About Dungeons - slice of life where there's technically a power level but it's not something used day to day. the world is definitively a hex grid, though.
I am one of the those addicted to Dungeon Crawler Carl thanks to your suggestion. I’m currently on book five and my gosh. I can’t stop reading it, lol. I’ve tried and itch to go back to it. I don’t know what makes it so addictive, but I am thoroughly enjoying it and glad I got the recommendation.
Great video! I also want to point out, regarding the popularity of litrpg. I know of at least 3 litrpg series that crack the overall Amazon Kindle top 10 when they come. Not just the SF & Fantasy top 10, but the entire Amazon Kindle top 10 list. There may be more series that do it, but I know for a fact, He Who Fights with Monsters, Defiance of the Fall, and Primal Hunter will all make top 10 for a few days when new books come out. Longtime anime watchers will be familiar with this term but you can almost call those 3 series the Big 3 of LitRPG right now.
Really nice to see Daniel talking about this. For those who like card games (not sure if Daniel does), you may enjoy the relatively new Deckbuilding LitRPG subgenre. I've had some fun reads there recently, like Goblin Summoner, All the Skills, or Theft of Decks. The amount of number crunching or card dueling varies based on the series, but there's a nice mix to be found already.
Inventory in progression fantasy is definitely a thing, but it is usually described as an extra dimensional bag, or sometimes a “soul space” rather than being an entry on a stat sheet.
Storage ring is another I've seen in cultivation - no idea if that's a direction translation or the common term within the sub-genre though. But it all amounts to a Bag of Holding and I doubt it's a new concept in any way.
Found the Cradle reader in the chat.
It's often portrayed as a feature of royalty/higher society, or of very powerful people. It's an interesting narrative device.
Bags of holding, although, it's all very much about the game convention of being able to carry a bunch of stuff, or video games with inventories.
@@jonevansauthor Storage ring is what pretty much all translators of xianxia/xuanhuan uses, so it's most likely a direct translation. Pretty much all webnovels in the genre uses them. And they usually have limited space. You gotta fork over some serious cash if you want greater inventory space in the rings. Though most MC's usually stumbles across a ring with some serious storage capacity early on.
"Carl, CARL! They're talking about us again!" -Donut, probably
Andrew Rowe's Arcane Ascension series was Progression Fantasy but it was a stepping stone to accepting the idea of LitRPG and I'm glad it did.
Rowe wrote a stand alone LitRPG Novella titled 'How to Defeat the Demon King in 10 Easy Steps' I read a lot of LitRPG and that still easily stands out as my favorite.
Princess Donut! ❤❤❤
progression fantasy: stories focused around a character/characters getting stronger and more powerful.
Litrpg: Similar thing but you have an RPG-esque rules and stats to show exactly how much the character has "progressed"
it gets way more complicated when you bring in gamelit, crunchy litrpg, creamy litrpg, Wuxia, Xianxia, KIngdom building stories, etc, but basically progression fantasy is kind of an umbrella term for it all.
Is Stormlight archive progression fantasy then? It is not the main foxus but still a big part
yeah, I'd also consider progression as the umbrella term rather than a separate genre.
Basically: progression fantasy: the character is grinding to get more powerful. How so?
LitRPG: numbers go up on the character sheet
cultivation (wuxia/xianxia): meditation and martial arts training.
kingdom building: accumulating wealth and political influence
technological uplift: same as before, but with science.
magical school: doing your homework.
time-loop: repetition is the mother of learning
cosy fantasy: make friends, and usually own a small business.
portal fantasy: the protagonist comes from another world might use knowledge from our world, certainly has to learn the way their new world works.
almost all those can combine and overlap, except for those that are mutually exclusive, and be expanded upon and twisted about. there are stories where people are born in a world where there is a magical character sheet. there are ones where the system arrives out of nowhere and provokes the apocalypse. still, if your story has a more than 20% training montages, or has mid challenge powerups, or a tournament arc, it is progression fantasy.
@@andreassundberg9426 I wouldn't say so. The characters simply acquiring more power and experience of fighting isn't sufficient.
While I agree with the genera sentiment I would look at LITRPG and Progressin Fantasy as seperate overlaping genres. Basically the same as Isekai and LitRPG in the Video.
There is a significant space in LitRPG for stories revolving around characters that are part of the system but do not progress.
This is in my opinion as far from Progression Fantasy, as a storry following Gandalf during the events of the Hobbit.
@@jonevansauthor okay!
Dungeon Crawler Carl has pulled me out of a reading slump single handedly this year. Fun funny and not overly philosophical like most fantasy and sci fi books right now. It’s just a roaring good time.
Well then maybe or maybe not checkout He Who Fights With Monsters. Excellently funny but Boy howdy does Jason like to hear himself speak and if he can get off his high horse it's usually he can stand on a soap box. (this sounds negative but I still like the books and Jason as a character)
Dude same here! I binged the series in a month I can’t wait for the next book!!!
I will add my recommendation as well. If Jason doesn't strike you as a great character in this series one of the others probably will. Strangely enough, Jason isn't always the favorite character in this series despite being the protagonist. This series author did some worldbuilding before he started writing, as I believe the author of Dungeon Crawler Carl also did before beginning to write.
The Wandering Inn, though, is one I think the author started writing with just a premise and did zero worldbuilding before writing. They've (yes, it is now written by more than one author) been doing the worldbuilding as they go along. Like Indiana Jones does in his adventures, they're "making it up as they go." But they're all easy to read.
This genre has both pulled me out of a literary slump and a personal writing slump. Also the audio book side of the genre with voice actors like Heath Miller has replaced my struggle with the podcast space by replacing it with fantastic audio for my long drives and such.
Maybe I'll check that one out. I've been in a bit of a slump myself
Appreciate the little shoutout to Ascendance of a Bookworm in the beginning. 100% the best isekai ever and my personal favourite fantasy story of all time
It was good, not my favorite but good.
My favorite would be _Grimgar Ashes and Illusions_ and clise behind _Lock Horizon._
Finally getting this question asked since I've been way too laz- reading books to Google it.
You actually started my path down litrpgs with Sufficiently Advanced Magic.
I'm not sure if Sufficiently Advanced Magic is litRPG.... But it is def Progression fantasy.his book how to defeat a demon King in 10 easy steps is definitely litRPG though.
@hahentamashii when I started it the book was labelled litrpg.
Sufficiently Advanced magic is one of my absolute favorites.
Non overpowerer MC. Really fascinating characters. Just a wonderful series.
@infinitedm5396 can't wait for book 5
@@adamallen661 What are you waiting for? When Wizards Follow Fools came out two weeks ago.
Defiance of the Fall, Primal Hunter, Azarinth Healer, He who fights with Monsters, Completionist Chronicles, Dungeon Crawler Carl, Awaken online, Divine Dungeon are my favorites. Whenever a new book is released in any of those it immediately shoots to the top of my TBR.
Honorable mention:
How to defeat the Demon king in 10 easy steps (nice short stand alone zelda inspired)
Zogarth and Dakota Krout are awesome.
One of the series you mentioned is what sparked my love for creative necromancy. One of my personal favorites.
We have similar tastes! Do you have any other recommendations?
@@sabrinas2896Buymort, I’m reading it right now (listening to audio), I’m halfway through the second book. It’s really good!
@sabrinas2896 sure thing! My tastes align pretty heavily with Daniel's (wheel of time, cosmere, one piece, bobiverse, expanse, etc. etc. etc.) so here are some you might like that I haven't seen him cover. (most of these aren't litrpg, but could argue they fit into progression Fantasy)
NPC's Series by Drew Hayes - litrpg adjacent (Gamelit?), D&D inspired, imagine the lives of NPC's when the players aren't around
Super Powered Series by Drew Hayes - basically my hero academia but way better. Can't recommend this enough.
Villains series by Drew Hayes - Set in a different universe than super powered, league of villians/antiheros with really cool powers, fights, ect
Spellmonger series by Terry Mancour - Wizard fights goblins, not Litrpg but could argue its progression fantasy
The Land series by aleron kong - one of the best litrpg until it falls off incredibly hard in book 8. just stop at book 7 and you'll have a good time
Heartstrikers series by Rachel Aaron - great dragon POV/urban fantasy series with really cool worldbuilding and magic system
Detroit Free Zone Series by Rachel Aaron - Spin off of the heart-striker series, not quite as good but if you like heart-strikers you will like this
Magic 2.0 series by Scott Meyer - I stopped around the 5th book but its fun, kind of Isakai ish tropes, but with some fun nerdy stuff in there. Some good nerd humor
A lot of Lit-RPGs start out as webnovels that you can read for free online. The Wandering Inn, Dungeon crawler Carl and He who fights with monsters all started off there. I remember skipping them then because they were not my cup of tea, but I'm happy they found wider success. Still, there are many many more stories for just about anyone that carry the Lit-RPG tag. Fantesy, sci-fi and fanfictions for just about any fandom.
A personal recommendation that will most likely never come out in print due to copyright issues is Ghost in the City by Seras, which is a story set in the world of the cyberpunk game.
Royal Road is a great place to find lots of aspiring authors and hobbyist storytellers putting up their own works in this genre right now. And they are all looking for followers, feedback, reviews, and general public engagement. Go visit them when you have a chance.
Is it a crossover with Ghost in the Shell? Just wondering cause of the name and similar setting.
@@StarlitSeafoam The main character is a big fan, but otherwise it's not a crossover.
@@StarlitSeafoam To clarify, Seras does self-insert isekai so the protagonist is from the real world and is incarnated in to the world of Cyberpunk 2077. The Ghost in the Shell stuff is, as Namacil said, an intentional reference made by the character that no one else in the world gets. Seras' stuff is super sweet and comfy if you're looking for that, I'm personally a fan.
they just seem like cringy amateur writing that gained traction just like 50 shades of grey ect... smut lol but a different kind of smut
Lit rpg has been popular in Chinese Manhua and Korean Manwha for a long time. The Gamer and Only I Level Up (or as it's more popularly known, Solo Leveling) are some examples. Murium Login, Overgeared, and the like are also some popular examples. The best one in my mind is probably SSS Class Sucicide Hunter - which is probably the best one I've read from a quality standpoint, though I recommend reading the light novel if you want a more literary detail, but the Manwha is also very good.
Outside of that, villianness manwha is also very good, with Death Is The Only Outcome For The Villainess being my favorite. More in line with a sorta Isekia spin is Academy Student Extras Guide, which is phenomenal in its own right with its art and characters.
Technically Solo Leveling could be considered an Lit-RPG
@kadan8457 oh it most certainly is, I wasn't denying that
@@walkerred8220 sorry, my fault, I didn’t read your post properly, I retract my statement, because it was redundant, I apologize
@kadan8457 meh, happens mate. Still, got any good recommendations? Most of the stuff I'm reading is pretty samey at the moment, and my backlog is looking like something outta Lovecraft
Those aren't exactly old in genre terms. They started publication a decade ago.
A game of thrones is considered a knew fantasy storry defining the genre and it hasn't published a book since eather of those began publishing.
The cradle series by Will Wight is an incredible progression fantasy series if you haven’t come across it!
He's read the first two books at least. Genre wasn't really for him basically, that was a few years ago though.
@@EjDantesyea well unironically it doesn’t get great till book 3 lol
@@rantalmoreI have only read the 3 first books of Cradle and although I do like the third book most it still has a lot of the elements and concepts from the two previous book. So if someone doesn't like those elements or concepts then I doubt they would like the third book neither
I have finished the series and boy is it worth it. The beginning books are a bit slower, but stakes are insane by the end. Will does an amazing job of MCs fighting world-ending horrors without losing hope. Also, turtle dragon. So good.
People can have different tastes, that’s fair!
I have had a friend who didn’t initially enjoy it and then completely fell in love with it on a second pass.
Also, this is one of those times where the audiobook elevates the experience, Travis Baldree’s voice acting is spectacular throughout.
LitRPG is *usually* (but not strictly) a subgenre of progression fantasy, at least so far as the various communities who are most into those two emerging genres would consider it.
Progression fantasy is about, well, _progress_. It's about the characters getting stronger and facing more and more challenging opponents, with power creep being more of a feature than a bug. Its roots come more from Shounen anime (especially like DBZ), but could also reasonably include Harry Potter (as a core part of the story is Harry learning new spells and becoming a better wizard). It also includes subgenres like xianxia/cultivation, which takes even more cues from DBZ and Eastern fantasy, but mostly cares about whether the protagonist's main means of overcoming challenges is getting intrinsically stronger.
LitRPG is any story where the powers are internally viewable as an in-universe stat sheet. Technically, it doesn't need any progression elements at all to be a litRPG, so long as the characters are capable of looking at an in-universe representation of their abilities, that's litRPG. There's a sort of sub-parallel genre to litRPG which is _GameLit_, which for a while was a competing term to litRPG but eventually fell into a sort of space where skills and such may _exist_, but they don't feature very prominently and you might never see a stat screen at any point.
Now, obviously the venn diagram of Progfantasy and LitRPG includes heavy overlap, but they do each have their own levels of overlap and fuzziness. HWFWM, for example, is a litRPG within a Progfantasy world thanks to Jason's unique Interface ability. Without Interface, that would be a progression fantasy.
Similarly, you could have a litRPG without progression fantasy, where the main story isn't about getting stronger but the characters know their exact abilities, but those are rarer outside of stories that are specifically about someone in a litRPG world who is either uninterested or incapable of engaging in the more typical progression fantasy elements (and even those are quite rare). The numbers, once present, nearly always go up.
Neither Progfantasy nor litRPG includes 'inventory' like effects inherently, but they're pretty common in both, but the more common manifestation thereof is as an item that can hold more items than normal (your bags of holding or storage rings).
The one thing I want to "Um actually" for those who are less familiar about the topics from this. Is that Dragon Ball was inspired by and based on Wuxia fantasy. Taking the concept and simplifying it -- while also popularizing it for Japan and later the world. [Though DBZ style story writing is drastically different enough from Wuxia that I would really consider them totally different genres. Like Sci-fi And Sci-Fantasy].
@@DragonMasterGold I would also question the idea of Harry Potter as PF; while he DOES learn more spells, he doesn't actually get much "stronger" throughout the series. One of the major points of the final conflict is that he *doesn't* win because of "Awesoma Powa!", but because of an understanding of the situation that he can use to his advantage (much like Luke Skywalkers' victory in RotJ); if Harry HAD tried to fight Voldemort directly...he just would have been almost instantly killed. This is one of my issues with the movie, where they felt they had to give the audience an exciting battle, however little sense it would make, instead of the anti-climactic note the scene really ends on...
EDIT: Now, Dresden Files, otoh, may be a good example of ProgFantasy, right?
I guess Earthsea, or any series with the magic school trope, would fit, too. Or The Many Colored Land series - ordinary people gaining and developing crazy strong psychic powers of different kinds over the series.
Xianxia (and wuxia) are not always progression fantasy. That should be made clear. They are massive genres that overlap with tons of stuff, including progression. But Xianxia is, in my experience, quite often not progression fantasy, especially if you start looking at dramas and movies. Plus it as a genre, along with wuxia, have a crazy long history in China that pre-dates progression fantasy.
I wonder where you got these definitions from. All of litrpg is a subgenre of progression fantasy. These litrpg without progression must the most boring litrpg ever written.
Powerfantasy with a hefty sprinkle of new age sword and sorcery with a lot more variety and imagination in the abilities the protagonists have and their enemies possess. If you've read one, you've read a looooooot. Very fun. I will say one of the most interesting things about the genre is that a lot of authors in it are intensely young. Like 16-23 years old in comparison to other genres where everyone's at least in their 30's.
There's a lot of great litRPG in Korean webnovels and Manhwa. Solo leveling is probably the most popular, but is also very much a straight play on the tropes.
Once you know the genre a bit, I would recommend Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint, a litRPG fan has his favorite webnovel come to life in the real world, and he happens to be the only person who read the 3,000 chapter long webnovel to the end. It's an amazing exploration of a reader's connection to a story and characters, and the ending breaks the 4th wall (Heh, iykyk) in the most heartbreaking way. Honestly anyone who feels like books have changed their life, or identifies with the word "reader" should 100% read it, until the end, I beg thee.
@@siliril dude I am an ORV fan, I get that, both as a reader and litrpg lover
"Dungeon Crawler Carl os addictive." Why you callin me out like that Daniel. I literally binged the series these last three weeks.
For those really fiending for more lit-rpg style series, the commonly referred to "system" series in manhwa are very similar, and there are a crazy amount of them to choose from
Yes! I consume the majority of my Lit-RPG and isekai in manhwas more than books, I loved solo leveling (can't wait to see the adaptation) tho I don't talk about the time travel stuff I stopped there. Kill the hero is also really good and is complete! (choker I know)
YES!!!!
Solo Leveling, which has a anime, would probably one of if not the most well known right now. While good, I vastly preferred The World After the Fall. It's already getting very dark but I find I really like the way it's going and Solo Leveling I'm still on the fence on despite reading now four volumes.
Two others I'm looking at currently are Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint and SSS-Class Revival Hunter.
@@ElizaBlakeney I haven't read The world after the fall but I'll add it, also yes! Omniscient is really good, I like it more than solo leveling and want to punch the as**hole of the "hero" every time he appears!
@@ElizaBlakeney omniscient readers viewpoint is in the same world as world after the fall (if you didn't already know that) and I highly recommend suicide hunter/revival hunter. I've read the novels for both of these (which are completed) and they are absolutely fantastic. Suicide hunter specifically being in my top 5, just simply immaculate
For those that enjoyed the solo leveling manga i'd say "the game that i came from" has been my current read that gave me a similar feeling.
I've been listening to almost exclusively LitRPG for the past 2 years. The mix of fantasy and science fiction elements is wonderful. Plus, numbers go brrrr! Dungeon Crawler Carl is in my top 2. The other is the Noobtown series, with The Mayor of Noobtown being book 1. Both of them have plenty of humor as well as heavy emotional moments. The narration work for both is also excellent. Some other suggestions are Wake of the Ravager, Mimic & Me, The Stitched Worlds, Savage Awakening, Big Sneaky Barbarian, Shopocalypse Saga, and Outcast in Another World.
@@thisbeaverdances4401 DCC and Noobtown are my top two as well!
I’m glad this video exists, I always felt bad that I listened to Lit-RPG books,I can’t help but like them, thanks you for your love❤
Edit: One Lit-RPG that don’t really have a quirky explanation is Primal Hunter.
I would also recommend Unbound-Dissonance, Ends of Magic, An Outcast in Another World and I’m not the hero
Defiance of the Fall is like crack to me lmao its one of the OG litrpgs and its the perfect pulp action read. It feels just like coming back from school and watching DBZ every day
Yes, DoF is fantastic. I wouldn't say it's the OG, it's not old enough for that, but it's great. Especially in how it marries litRPG to the second great genre of progression fantasy, which is Cultivation stories of Eastern fantasy.
Oof I remember when defiance first dropped. I loked the first book well enough. But I really started to hate the writing in later books. So much breaking the flow of the scene with internal Exposition. Like him just sneaking down a hall way has him going on a multy page Monolog about how magic works.
I also loved it for a looooong time. Got to book 9 and then I got over to. 9 books was a too long a trek for me, I really like it when books end. I need closure 😂 but yeah it's a great series
I'm currently reading `He who fights monsters` book 11 and I'm getting the same feeling
@@kervaakI love that stuff tho
@rantalmore and that's fine. I just think if he wanted to do that introspection he should wait for down time. Not during his sneaky sneak spot. Or in the middle of a fight. For me it breaks the tension of the scene. I love slow story's full of thoughts and dialog... just don't Interrupt high stress spots with it.
Thanks Daniel to bring your P.O.V on the genre. As an avid reader of litRPG for more than 3 years and a longtime fan of sci-fi fantasy literature, it is nice to see this new genre being recognized as more than a niche trend on the web. LitRPG help me reignite my passion for reading.
0:18 "Phenamanuh... DO Doooo Do DO DO " Instant Muppets moment!
Isakei - "We're not in Kanasas anymore Toto." Lit-RPG - Gandalf "Run you fools!... so I can solo this boss and get a big level up"
The best part of this is Daniel's growth arc from the Explaining Subgenres video to now accepting that genres "are nebulous, they change." ❤️
Loved the video! I've been writing in the genre for several years now and I agree with all of your suggestions. Keep up the great videos!
I'm an author in the genre, a small one sure, but still have some unique perspective on it, and maybe a bit more of behind the scenes information. One thing I wanted to make a comment on is that while there isn't any set definitions, so there will always be debates about it, but imo Progression Fantasy is an umbrella genre with litRPG within it. Progression fantasy just boils down to, the core beating heart of it, is that in order for a plot to move forward, the character has to grow in power, or progress in ways that's integral to the character. Part of why Legends and Lattes, outside of Travis Baldree being perhaps the most notable narrator in the genre, has a lot of weight in PF and litRPG spaces is because there is a progression there. The coffee shop gaining more items for sale, is the progression. What makes litRPG under the umbrella of PF, is just that the progression is numerically tracked through some kind of "system".
I think it is still just overlapping genres. The defining features are (in my opinion) independent.
Is a LitRPG still progression fantasy if none of the characters involved achive any change in their "status" during the storry?
Very interesting! I was about to ask if cosy PF could exist, I've read legends and lattes and didn't click with me.
Also I'll appreciate a shameless promo of your book (if you want) so I can get my little goblin claws all over it =)
@@claasmachens3858 I believe it is, but not in the conventional sense. A fantasy book that parodies/satirizes fantasy, is still just that, fantasy. All of the trappings and set dressings are there, but that refusal to work with it is a stylistic choice. To go back to my parody comment, someone who doesn't know the genre, while still able to enjoy the book, just won't understand the full breadth of it. It's like Discworld. It's a great series by itself, but if you've never read another fantasy series, there's a lot that's going to be missed. The choice to refuse genre themes, needs to still involve those themes or it means nothing. So a series about someone who has access to a magic system but refuses to use it, requires that system to be there in order to refuse it in the first place
@@per-c8229 Yeah, I really loved L&L, but totally get why it's not everyone's cup of tea... Or coffee I guess lol.
And I definitely appreciate the ask! I feel like you'd have a harder time not hearing about someone's book once they've mentioned they're an author. The series is called Crimson Hydra, with only 1 book out at the moment, Gene Harvest, with book 2 only being a month or two away! It's published through Portal books, a small print publisher and available on Amazon and Audible
@@JoshuaRettew But if we reduce the requierments so far, it only has to be possible for characters to need to progress to advance the storry, which book does not fall within that genre?
If I write a storry were an actress and a Pop Musician meet each other in weird circumstances, find each other hot and proceed to go through their regular lives without meeting each other ever again that might be a parody of romance tropes, but is no longer a romance.
Edit: I realised only upon reread, that you assume the person has access but does not use the LitRPG system.
My example works just as well for someone that has reached the maximum level in everything the System offers, before the storry began (which was what I had in mind).
I didn't know I needed this channel. Earned a sub.
The Path of Ascension is a good example of a series that could be LitRPG or Progression Fantasy. It has levels, but to gain a level, you must acquire an unspecified amount of essence from killing monsters or crafting and add it to your own.
Litrpg is a subgenre of Progression Fantasy. Every book that belongs to litrpg, belongs to both.
@vmerling You're right, I was thinking of Cultivation, not Progression. My bad.
I've been on a years-long progression fantasy kick, and I can't wait for it to really find its wings. Thanks for covering it!
One of my favorites is Will Wight's debut series, the Traveler's Gate trilogy, a series about a nobody kid from the same village as his world's "chosen one." It has a great balance of grit, action, humor, and humanity. It also has a standalone collection of beautiful short stories that illustrate the interconnected worlds of the series.
My current favorite litRPG series is Zaifyr's All the Dust That Falls tetralogy, which just recently concluded. It's about a wholesome Roomba named Spot who is summoned from Earth by mistake and is confused for a powerful demon. The series handles heavy themes with humor, grace, and action. Great heroic power progression.
I also can't recommend enough an odd book, even among progression fantasy: a beefy standalone novel called Butler to a Core Lord, by Paul Perk. A dark, tense, action-filled mystery full of time travel and twists so shocking they rattled deep in my soul. The magic system is an interesting one based on deck-building.
I could keep going, but I'll stop here :D
How about the long-running webcomic *The Order of the Stick*? It's explicitly in a *Dungeons & Dragons* world where the characters have stats and levels and whatnot (and a running gag for a long time where the Wizard's familiar would pop in and out of existence when it was remembered to exist). But, there are no "players" - it's part of the Venn diagram outside of the Isekai bubble as the world is what's "normal" to everybody involved. We don't see stats explicitly, but we know that the world operates on the familiar game rules to the point where readers on the official forums attempt to reverse-engineer character sheets due to what we know the characters are capable of.
Order of the Stick is great and is one of the few webcomics I haven't fallen off of over the years.
Litrpg doesn't need to be a game and doesn't need players. Many litrpg stories take place in a world where the system is just the way things work and it's real life, not a game.
Thanks for the great video! Based on your recommendation, I just started Dungeon Crawler Carl, and it's terrific. I usually get the kindle book + the audiobook and the narration and performance of the audiobook is great, including some great techniques for different character voices. Really happy I stumbled upon this video. Thanks for the helpful recs!
In 1983 Joel Rosenburg published "The Sleeping Dragon" - the first book in his "Guardians of the Flame" series. One of the best early precursors to LitRPG.
It's not a litrpg though. Taking place inside a game is not enough to be a litrpg. It's not necessary either.
So you don't know the definition of, and didn't look up 'precursor'. :)
@@mndrew1 Sorry. My bad. English as a second language.
I am a thriller/dark romance writer, and I am about to start writing in the LitRPG genre. This video helped me understand a lot about it. Thanks!🙏
For anyone looking to check out the LitRPG genre, He Who Fights With Monsters is a well written great starting point. 11 books out currently. It's one of the most popular series in the genre and, while no book/series can please everyone, it's widely recommended to anyone who hasn't read it yet. It's the series I use as an entry point for people who don't generally read but are into gaming in any fashion or form.
Edit: The audio book narration is excellent in this series as well.
Main character is a liberal snob with no growth. Dungeon Crawler Carl probably the better litrpg for dummies series, though personally I thought it dry and boring.
@@Edog1337 If you think Jason has no growth you either didn't get very far into the series or didn't quite follow what you were reading. One of that series' strong points is that the main character is heavily impacted by the things he goes through.
It's also on Kindle Unlimited if your pocket book is tight. So is DCC actually.
Thanks for making this video. As LitRPG grows because folks like you put info out there and plug it, I think the quality and depth of the stories will also improve even more.
I hope you check out at least some of the following as you explore:
- Life Reset by Shemer Kuznitz, - Jakes Magical Market by JR Matthews
- Viridian Gate Online by James Hunter
- The Land by Aleron Kong
- Archemi Online by James Osiris Baldwin
- The Completionist Chronicles by Dakota Krout
The “Alone Against” series has the reader make a character sheet using Call of Cthulhu TTRPG rules. You then read the book and make skill (dice) rolls and based on the outcome you turn to different pages. Different but similar and fun!
Yeah this video confused me, by his descriptions I thought LitRPG were like TTRPG gamebooks like Alone Against series, but it seems like they are just stories where the characters inhabit a RPG-like world and they level up, have stats etc but you, the reader are not a player of the game and don't make any rolls or decisions.
Thank you for covering this! I actually first heard about LitRPG when I was asking for recs on what turned out to be other genres/ideas (the first time was interactive fiction/CYOA/gamebooks and the second time when I asked about recs for books that reminded people of certain video games, which I get the similarities), so I appreciate your explanation here. It made a lot more sense.
I have been enjoying Dungeon Crawler Carl so far and am looking for other LitRPGs to get into. Also would love to see other genre deep dives like this. A video on gamebooks and CYOA would be awesome!
Progression Fantasy isn't necessarily incompatible with lit rpg. The people who coined the term Progression Fantasy wanted it to be something of an umbrella term for fantasy stories where one of the core appeals is seeing a character progress, grow, or advance in power or in the magic system. So in that way it could be argued lit rpg is a subgenre of Progression Fantasy.
As for recommendations for lit rpg. Steeet Cultivation by Sarah Lin. Pretty much anything by RavensDagger. The Ripple System by Kyle Kirron.
I agree, I see LitRPG as a subgenre of Progression Fantasy, distinguished by its diagetic progression mechanics.
I see it as progression being the main which 3 sub genres that have alot of over lap. Litrpg, cultivation, and dungeon core.
Most often when progression fantasy actually acknowledges levels, skills, etc., but don't show it, it is called litRPG lite. Another progression fantasy genre that generates stories with a huge word count, it is cultivation stories.
@@kervaak What's dungeon core?
@@kervaak I thought dungeon core stories were a subgenre of litrpg? I mean, dungeons are pretty quintessentially game elements, and those stories, from what I've seen, often operate within a setting with a system?
Lit RPG is one of my fav genres, excited to watch a Daniel Greene video on it
I find recommendations like "the best" difficult to follow up on, because when exploring a genre the reader goes through similar steps as the genre itself.
You have some early examples, then popularity explodes and the genre is defined. Much of LitRPGs roots lies in stories about people being in, trapped in or playing a (scifi-VR) game. It's a genre that appeals to the giant gamer demographic while being similarly addictive as other Progression Fantasy. Following the stories that blew up are a bunch of imitators, some of which rise above their inspiration and establish their names by bringing unique ideas or cultural understandings to the genre. The genre mixes with related genres and spreads out into more settings.
That's where we get classic Isekai LitRPG where either a game world becomes real or the protagonist is transported to a world that just has game elements as part of its nature. Then, of course, we get novels that just play in such worlds, no isekai required. And we get related genres like Dungeon Core novels or TCG systems that use elements of other game genres. Some authors begin a deeper exploration of what the System would mean for a society, bringing better worldbuilding and birthing the System Apocalypse subgenre, where the LitRPG elements are forcefully introduces to Earth.
Also, a second generation of stories appears that challenges, inverts and/or subverts the tropes of the first wave. Parodies of popular tropes only make sense once a genre is established, and after some time even the parodies can be reacted to again. Here we see more realistic Systems, evil Systems or Systems made and exploited by hostile parties, novels with several (maybe competing) systems etc., basically a lot of meta-discussion of the RPG mechanics. And I'm not even getting into the game design behind the LitRPG mechanics.
A new reader usually enters via a solid power fantasy based LitRPG, then reads more of those maybe in their favourite settings. When this becomes boring and repetitive, they branch out to parodies or more complex stories where the LitRPG growth element serves more to get you interested long enough to become invested and then pivots to focus more on plot or characters. They will have preferences in settings or game types. I really enjoyed Vainqueur the Dragon, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who has never played D&D or a similar fantasy TTRPG.
Hi Daniel!
I don't often leave comments on writing/genre videos, but given that this is a genre I write in (and obviously read a good bit in), I figured I'd toss in a few thoughts.
I think you did a really solid job with breaking down the basics of the genre. And I definitely get where you're coming from with the genre terminology being messy. There's a lot of what I typically call "sister genres", where there are a lot of similarities, but also difference. Progression fantasy honestly sounds like a solid way to describe the group overall though, since the thing that usually ties these similar genres together is the concrete progression of the characters that you don't really get in traditional fantasy.
Also, you touched on the humor element, and while I wouldn't say humor is *required* for LitRPG, the genre tends to struggle to assert itself if it takes itself too seriously, if that makes sense. I'm sure it could be done, but generally when series seem to flounder, I find it's because at some point they tried to take themselves too seriously and lost that bit of lighthearted essence. Basically, when the author lets themselves have fun and not take everything 100% seriously, the audience is often willing to do the same, so they don't spend too much time picking apart all the little details and instead just enjoy the ride. I think it's part of what makes LitRPG so addicting to read, the fun ride never stops.
The LitRPG genre is certainly growing, and I think you did hit the nail on the head about it needing time to grow and blossom. I love the genre to pieces, but there can also be a lot of same-ness within the genre at times, and I think that's partly due to the fact that these series generally take a long time to write. There's a lot that has to be kept track of on the backend which slows down the writing process, and even more so if it's a series where the system is expanded upon as the series progresses. But I'm sure the variety within the genre will change with time, and I plan to work to be part of that. I draw a lot of inspiration from the korean equivalent of the genre that tends to be urban fantasy, and I worked to blend the two approaches with my own setting.
My favorite LitRPG series, and the one I'd most recommend to people, would be Nathan Thompson's Challenger's Call, which I have had really great success with recommending (five successful recommendations thus far). Everyone I recommended it to that actually read it went through the whole thing and got into the genre despite having never read it before. And I have to give the author credit where credit is due, he does an absolutely phenomenal job of creating heroes you want to root for and villains that absolutely need to be wiped out. (The villains are as distressing as they are because while they're absolutely awful people/creatures, they have just enough nuance to them to feel real.
It definitely sounds like I ought to give Dungeon Crawler Carl a look too, given the success you've had with getting people into it!
So, this kind of reminds me of the Order of the Stick webcomic; a story wherein the setting runs on the rules of D&D 3.5 (and has previously run on the rules of different editions - the first strip is of the characters being impacted by the rules change between 3.0 and 3.5). This was at first played entirely for laughs, but as the story continued, it has actually become really good. Quirks of the setting include things like the elderly having better senses than the young because of the wisdom buff from aging, and haggling down the price of expensive spell components (such as diamonds for resurrection) making them worthless because the rules state how much you have to pay for them.
Of course, you never get to see the character sheets of the cast, which I'm guessing leaves it out of LitRPG, but that's the vibe I'm getting.
My favorite book RUclipsr covering my favorite genre ❤
I've found litRPGs and Progression Fantasy so addictive that I just consider them candy. They don't push the needle on anything yet, but they feel so good.
Yay, instant gratification
Completely agree - It's so addictive. I went down the Lit-RPG rabbit hole and can't find my way out =)
When diving into a series you just want to see the progression, Can't wait for the next book.
A few series i read/reading and can recommend other than DCC and He who fights with monsters:
1. Emerilia (Book 1 is "The Trapped Mind Project") - really enjoyed the sci-fi Premise
2. All the Skills: A deck building LitRPG - finished the first 3, now about to start book 4 - Very cool design and Intergration of Cards in the worldbuilding.
3. Mark of the Fool - Progression Fantasy so no numbers.
4. Solo Leveling - From Webcomics to Anime series - Very addictive - finished like 6 volumes in quick succession.
Most of these i actually listened to with Audible.
The way of the Shaman by Vasily Mahanenko was my intro to LitRPG. Its an awesome series.
Love it!
Honestly the best explanation for our genre including subtle nuances that make a distinction in our umbrella. The Divine Dungeon Series is like over 25 books long with Artorians Archive and every one of those books is amazing to me
I have found that inventory is story specific. The Good/Bad guys need to use magic bags for inventory, but these are clearly gamified stories. DCC's use of infinite inventory is specific to that story's game mechanics. HWFWM also has an inventory system, but I wouldn't consider it a requirement for the genre.
Lit-RPG/Prog Fantasy recommendations (in no particular order):
Azarinth Healer - Rhaegar (Healer)
Defiance of the Fall - JF Brink (Axes)
The Primal Hunter - Zogarth (Archer)
Millennial Mage - JL Mullins (Mage)
Jackal Among Snakes - Nemorosus (Mage)
The Legend of Randidly Ghosthound - Noret Flood aka puddles4263 (Spears)
Ar'Kendrithyst - Arcs (Mage)
Hunting and Herbalism - Synonymoose (Druid)
Unchosen Champion -JaceVAmor (Knight)
Chaotic Craftsman Worships the Cube - probablyaturnip (Blacksmith)
Bonus Recommends (Not LitRPG/ProgFan):
A Practical Guide to Sorcery - Azalea Ellis (Hard Magic)
A Journey of Black and Red - Alex Gilbert (Grimdark Vampires)
Beware of Chicken - Casualfamer (Transmigration Farming Cultivation)
That should be enough for starters.
Edit: Best way for me to define LitRPG vs ProgFan is that its like Hard vs Soft Magic. Hard magic has well defined rules that are explained and expanded upon (LitRPG) vs Soft magic which has a more generalized broad vision of what magic is and does and less on the how (ProgFan); There's obviously overlap and grey areas between the two genres, you could even say that Hard Magic is a subset of Fantasy and Soft magic as a whole that just defines more of its world, but tbh, its just a way to group things in an easier way to point people towards their preferences of styles.
The primal Hunter has a spell on me, highly recommend it ! I read 8 books in one month
Best fight scenes I’ve read in a while
Id say litrpg usually has a System in place. Like a literal System that tells people their lvl ups and changes and whatever and progression fantasy usually has a different way of quantifying a power up. For example they get better spells, get stronger muscles, better reflexes, more mana or whatever they use as a ressource to use their power.
It's generally agreed that the difference between the two lies mostly in how explicit the advancement is, and that, is mostly represented in numbers. Litrpg will say "you are now a level 16 mage" "your skill in fireball is now level 6" "your strength is 37" etc...
@@vmerling thats exactly what i meant, maybe i wasnt clear enough, but i agree
Ordered DCC, and I'm stoked to check it out
I'd call litRPG a subgenre of Progression Fantasy actually, they're not mutually exclusive
I found this particularly interesting because my two forays into the realm of the LitRPG have been Andrew Seiple's Threadbear series and, more recently, Honour Rae's "She of Many Dragons." Both feature the hallmark of the progression fantasy mentioned, but both include either full character sheets or character sheet snippets, complete with numbers, as part of the text presentation. In both, the protagonists are aware of the game mechanics to which they are subjected and take action to increase specific stats to fit their needs. It almost makes me feel like @daniel is reading a different class of LitRPG from me.
Please read Worth the Candle. Metafictional LitRPG. There's nothing like it out there.
Oh maaan. Was about to stop scrolling but then saw this. 100% agreed, its so good. Coming to amazon now too, already 2 or 3 books there officially instead of needing royal road. With audible too!
The things that house can do... Scares me lol
I loved seeing Play to Live (Alter World is book 1 of the series) in the thumbnail. I recommended it in another comment and so happy to see it here.
Has anyone else read it? I loved how it takes an MMO setting in really interesting ways for a LitRPG, and tackles some really dark concepts about being stuck in a game world.
I also recommend 1/2 Prince. The manhua and novel are identical really, I did both expecting to get more from the novel the second time around, but that isnt true.
Both are very cool and unique concepts in the LitRPG space.
I mostly ignore the stats panel/status in LitRPG, usually the mc would explain it himself what's going on. in eastern LitRPG at least.
Also most of the time the states are meaningless. Like there is now difremce showen between having 3 str comapiared to 5 or what changes naratively by a leave unless it's like theb5th or 10 lvl. Like a system that gives them an ability or upgrade every 5 lvls...just makes 4 of the levels pointless. That's why I love the system in the wandering inn. Nearly no numbers or sheets. Lvls feel earned and slow give plenty of time to see the deference. And even if they don't get a new skill all skills get a bit better and it does show up and is used. Not by Erin. She gets alot of crap for not testing and using her skills more and finding there limits. But you see it in many of the other characters.
And for most litRPG stories that is perfectly fine. They certainly overdo those panels, and more often than not the numbers feel rather arbitrary. I love litRPG, but that is certainly my biggest complaints about the genre and that is coming from somebody actively involved in RPGs. Than again, the fact that I know a bit about game mechanics and game design, might make it all the more obvious when the numbers are just tagged on (especially when a MC regularly defeats higher level opponents because reasons). On occassion a series make the wording actually matter, making it effectively a hard magic system, that the characters than have to creatively use to solve a problem or find a loophole in the rules (gaming the system).
@@pietersleijpen3662 RIGHT I feel the same way
My first was Nova Terra - quite enjoyed and it has been a journey. Great video connecting the two.
I legit thought it was like those 90's choose your own adventure books with RPG elements. Boy was I way off.
This video only confused me more LOL when he said the characters had stats etc - I'm thinking okay these are like those interactive game books and it sounds fun, its only days later after doing some research I'm realizing that's not the case.
Fantastic video Daniel!!! I definitely fell hard into the LitRPG rabbit hole. I have emerged now, but I still go in for a deep dive (3-5 books) now and then.
In my opinion, the biggest release in the genre of the last two years has got to be Super Supportive - which is a superhero litRPG title that pushes the storytelling forward (letting the stats take a back seat), and really lifts the bar for writing quality within the webserial space.
Cannot recommend it enough!
Omg that is suuuch a good series. I'm cought up on royal road and I'm just desperately waiting for more chapters lol. I WANT TO SEE HOW THE THANKSGIVING EVENT TURNS OUT lol.
Came acrosss it recently, yeah, it has been some time since I could not stop reading a web novel. I don't think there is an actual E-book/print version of it, right? I mean, you can still read all its 174 chapters on Royal Road, which is ususally an indication it has not been published on Amazon.
And it just updated 4 hours ago… excuse as I read the latest chapter
@HiAndHello-w9l AAAAAHHHH. I...WILL BE RIGHT BACK!!!!
recommendation:
- "All the Skills: A Deck-Building LitRPG" by Honour Rae -- this one stands out to me because it is based around deck building rather than more familiar LitRPG tropes.
- "Beneath the Dragoneye Moons" or "Lotus Lake" by Selkie. Lotus Lake is more humorous and character driven, Dragoneye is more world buildy and more representative of mainline LitRPG.
- Cradle series by Will Wight -- ProgFantasy/CultivationFantasy
What i find interesting is how fresh it seems to one group of people is completely the opposite for me after living through a decade plus of isekai destroying the variety of anime to the point its a meme. To me it feels like a whole genre grave yard bearen to death with very little to actually say other than thriving on power fantasies.
Perspective i guess. Humans are fun.😅
Progression Fantasy is the sub-genre/trope that you mentioned earlier in the video at 12:01. The basics is that you start at a lower power level and then as the story progresses, so does the character in terms of power. This sub-genre is essentially the butter for the bread that is LitRPGs, where the purpose behind the "systems" in LitRPGs are usually to facilitate the progression aspect; though I've read a few LitRPGs that purposefully avoid the progression fantasy aspect.
Another important definition in the genere is the term "system" which has grown to definte whatever wonderful/mystical/RPG-like mechanics that exist in the book. This is important because that system itself can be personified (I particularly like Magic Murder Cube Marine's take on it), it can be antagonistic or helpful to the protagonist (and sometimes only the protagonist), and in other times it can be an unfeeling machine that is intented to be the vehicile for progression.
Additionally, quite a few stories are great at executing the opposite of what you described in 10:14 - where the system is a mysterious entity that needs to be solved by both the character and the reader. The author purposefully uses very little LitRPG aspects, but those that are used are incredibly impactful to the story and it's up the characters in that world to actually decipher the meaning of them.
I think overall the space has a ton of places to grow and as someone whose been addicted to them for 4 or 5 years now, I'm more than happy to give some recommendations.
My personal favorite is Hell Difficulty Tutorial - where they really take grasp of the progression fantasy elements. It is an ongoing fiction, so expect to be on the drip feed for a while once you get to the current content.
Another reecommendation is above, Magic Murder Cube Marine, which is a lighter take on the LitRPG aspects but has a much more humorous writing style. I've laughed quite a lot while reading it. It's also ongoing though.
Speedrunning the Multiverse is a completed novel and is a very classical progression/LitRPG that is fast-paced enough to actually be completed and goes from level 1 to top level (and how fast it progresses is pivotal in the plot, as shown in the title). It's a completed series so I'd be happy to recommend it.
Finally, a recommendation that isn't in the LitRPG genre, but is adjacent is the Prophecy Approved Companion, which follows the NPC side-character that follows the player of a LitRPG.
PS: I will die on the hill that it's "LitRPG" and not "LITRPG" or "Lit-RPG".
For a genre defining example of Progression Fantasy, Will Wight's Cradle series was one of if not the series that most folks would point to. It was slightly rough but still intriguing for me in the first book because it's a different world and some things didn't quite feel right, but as it begins to expand from there the series pulled me in. It's a highly recommended series on the subreddit, almost to the point of if you're a fantasy reader and haven't read LotR people would wonder why not. Would recommend.
While He Who Fights With Monsters is my top LitRPG recommendation, and Dungeon Crawler Carl is definitely one of the most popular, some other popular series to look at would be:
* The Path of Ascension by C. Mantis - Probably my favorite LitRPG series after He Who Fights With Monsters. Very much a progression of power system but with some lovable main characters which is as much as I want to say to avoid spoilers.
* Apocalypse Parenting by Erin Ampersand - A more feminine take on the subgenre. A mom of some young kids tries to navigate a Dungeon Crawler Carl-esque apocalypse. Less power fantasy, more trying to pull people together to have a safe community for her kids. It's not massively popular, but I found it to be a refreshing take.
* Primal Hunter by Zogarth - Very much a power fantasy. Main character is... a little autistic? It's a fun read, but not as deep as other recommendations here. Popular and enjoyable enough to make this short list.
* Defiance of the Fall by JF Brink The First Defier - This series starts fairly normally for the subgenre with our world being integrated into a "system". The power upgrades through the series are pretty high and it leans into some more eastern takes on power and progression. It's fun and long running, and the power levels get pretty crazy as well as the expansion of where the story takes place. It's a very well known and popular series in the subgenre.
Azarinth Healer
@@KaleidoRose That's one I've heard the title of a lot but haven't gotten around to reading yet. Definitely one recommended a lot though.
Daniel you convinced me a while back to read DCC at some point. Now - I think I might just start it next!
Keep up the excellent work (and congratulations to you both)
It’s when an RPG is totally lit, bro 🤟
I get the 'joke' but since RPG is always 'lit' it's a bit like saying it's when water makes things wet.
I started reading DCC bc of your recommendation of it in your video about exciting upcoming releases the rest of this year into 2025 and I picked it up bc the way you talked about it was with similar enthusiasm to how you’ve talked about Murderbot in the past. So far both series have hooked me in immediately and are favorites.
Isekai: A setting (Other world)
LitRPG: The Power system has direct RPG elements (Number go up)
Progression fantasy: Destribes the focus of the plot (Characters progress through the power system)
I went into The Wandering Inn with the expectation to read it over a couple of years, like Wheel of Time that I read over one Year. Started reading TWI 2 Months ago and am through all the released ebooks and quite a bit into volume 7, probably close to half already. It's perfect to end a day on even when tired, and perfect to start a day on when not yet ready to get out of bed and start working.
I started on them about a year ago, and I've listened to all of the released audiobooks twice (except the newest one). It's definitely not high art but it's mostly cozy with occasional big emotional moments. I am impressed with how fast they are getting the audiobooks out!
Sir I think you meant, Princess Donut, the Queen Anne Chonk, please address her highness properly next time as Mongo is appalled.
Fantastic video. Very helpful to understand this genre that I did not understand. Thank you.
Personally I'm not a fan og the genre, becuase things like xp, stats and menus ware but the constrictions the medium of games used in order to simulate an epic adventure, but now the stories are about the simulations and not the real adventures.
Now instead of magic with limitedless potential we have rigid systems interacting with each other.
I guess I can see why some of the more mecanically minded people whose enjoyment of videogames is based finding quirks on said systems and crafting the most optimal strategies may find enjoyment on theory crafting tactics for the fake games in the stories, but it is just not for me.
Thank you, explanation of "characters have d&d sheets" stuck to me like, what's interesting/fun in that. Joking about fictional character fubbing a roll when something goes wrong is fun, but not if they actually roll. It sounds like reading character going over a menu, like what?
As true as what you say us I think your missing some really really good books that actually use the system or magic system as a narrative tool and actually plot. Some times even a character it's self. The wandering inn uses the a lvling system I think even you would like. Very few numbers, no stats screens. The way the system effects every day life and politics and laws... it truly feels like a real world
@@Ekami-chan I have a suggestion for you before you jump to that conclusion about litRPGs, google The Wandering Inn and just read (for free) on the website the chapters titled “Wistram Days” or just check out the chapters titled “Roots” in volume 10 and see if you enjoy them
my first experience with litrpg was probably a 1/2 Prince fan translation back in 2005. i think Sword Art Online from 2002 is the oldest litrpg that i know about, though it was categorized as isekai for so long folks might not think of it as litrpg. i didn't run into SAO until the mid 2000s. i've been reading webnovels pretty extensively since the early 2000s.
i used Chinese webnovels quite a bit when i was learning to read Chinese as well. Dungeon Crawler Carl never really clicked with me because it feels so incredibly similar to several other Chinese webnovels i've read over the years. the sense of humor is the main differentiator for me. DCC is better written and edited to be sure when compared to web novels pumping out multiple chapters per week.
for me that sameness is one of the main issues i have with the current litrpg landscape. most published litrpg books i've read either started as a webnovel i've already read or feels like it is the same story as webnovels i've already read. a few of them literally feel like they copy/pasted parts from a few webnovels together and then quickly paraphrased the result.
i think if a readers is newish to litrpg it is a great genre that gives a unique feel. most of the novels are written in a very conversation tone and have a pretty low reading level. easy to get into, easy to read and probably familiar if the reader has passing experience with RPG games, tabletop or video.
I’m glad people are finding a genre they like. This doesn’t sound very appealing to me. But I’m glad people are reading what they like
This video was fantastic, thank you! Cradle and DCC have been some of the most stupidly, stupidly fun times I've had reading, ever. For months I've been steadily looking into new prog fants/litrpg while going through my more trad tbr. I'm so excited to read more in this genre, though I don't expect to ever find something more fun than Cradle.
You need to read some LitRPGs that are not isekais. I personally enjoy more LitRPG where the system is natural to the world
Same here. Have you read Saintess summons skeletons?
@@ElfMaidWithInternet Nope, what's it about?
Full Murderhobo is a great series. And it can be technically defined as Isekai light in addition to LitRPG
I began about 4 years ago developing an English Light Novel series as a type of pastiche to isekai, but I wanted to subtly subvert several constant tropes while including my favorites. Now here I am 4 years later rewriting it for the 3rd time as portal fantasy with much less of the isekai/light novel nods while maintaining the overall aesthetic of what appealed to me about those stories. Portal fantasy has existed for a long, long time, one of the earliest being, _The Blazing World_ written by Margaret Cavendish in 1666.
While I personally enjoy reading fantasy with RPG elements and an endless amount of skill stats and spreadsheets of things to keep track of, I tend to either stray from it in my own writing, or sprinkle it in in small doses in the world building.
The first lit-rpg my friend got me into an I really enjoy is called "The Land" by Aleron Kong
I read all these two and loved them so much I re-read them. I still haven't read the most recent one tho because it had mixed reviews unlike the first 7 books. Also, he hasn't released a new one in the series in a long time
For better or for worse, I have become a connoisseur of LitRPG and Progression Fantasy. It is absolutely true that there's a wealth of self-published work with interesting ideas in DESPERATE need of editing. But I have found a multitude of excellent ones amongst the rough stuff.
In addition to He Who Fights with Monsters, some of my all time favorites are:
- Warformed: Stormweaver (for a classic YA coming of age take on the genre)
- The Path of Ascension (similar YA coming of age)
- The System Apocalypse (much grittier)
- Alpha Physics (gritty and more human, despite the fantastic powers)
- Eight, by Samer Rabadi. This one in particular is an absolute gem that deserves much more attention. Such a novel voice in the genre with a really interesting indigenous perspective.
- This Trilogy is Broken (shorter, a fun mix of witty and cheesy)
So I’m a Spider So What, the books. Easily greatest weak to strong, best action I’ve ever read even years later.
Thank you for the explanation. I like time or dimension travel stories. So I might actually try LitRPG now.
I'm surprised he didn't mention "Solo" leveling when he was going to talk about a litrpg you've probably heard of. I have never heard of Dungeon Crawler up until this point. I do read litrpgs, but they're usually translations.
And translations (especially fan translation) are a rather small niche
Dungeon Crawler Carl has suddenly rose from popularity in book community while solo leveling they probably never heard of, and I don't think daniel would like it at all, considering how poorly written it is but quite fun.
My LitRPG recommendations are:
“Ajax’s Ascension” and “Azarinth Healer” for a more standard LitRPG
“The Primal Hunter” for a system apocalypse
“Syl” by Lunadea for a monster evolution LitRPG
“The Dungeon Traveler” for a dungeon core story
“Path of Ascension” for a non isekai LitRPG also is a sci-fi fantasy mix
LitRPG is for people who thought Brandon Sanderson didn't suck enough of the magic out Magic 😅 At this point just play a CRPG or read classic science fiction
Btw if you dislike this genre, Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is the perfect antidote 💯
Why so negative? It's nice that there are more options for people, you don't need to look down at others for different tastes. I'm sure there is something you like that other people find tiresome.
@@GrifHowe okay but did I characterize the genre? LitRPG *is* in fact for people who want Hard Magic systems so hard that the authors literally quantify it with Stat Block. That's the definition of LitRPG.
If you like it, more power to you. But I'm not wrong to say that the selling point of the genre is that it inverts Clarke's Law: any sufficiently quantified magic is indistinguishable from science.
It's so exciting to see so many people reading a genre I've been addicted to for the last two years 😊 DCC was my first and top recommendation
If you like LitRPG, I highly recommend KindleUnlimited, and the publisher Aethon Books. There are so many LitRPG books on KU! And you don't have to feel guilty about the amount you're spending cause it's a subscription 😁 I've read probably 10-15 different lit RPG series from Aethon books, and I've enjoyed them all. They also are almost always on KU.
I'm currently in the middle of (book 9 out of 13) Beneath the Dragoneye Moons. It's isekai, and progression fantasy. (MC is from our world, and by book 9 is very OP - but in a good way. She has some very interesting restrictions to her power). She is a healer, but she does do other stuff too, especially as the series goes on. If you know/like the healer character from A Wandering Inn, this scratches some of the same itch. Less dark. Still pretty gory at times.
Try out Path of Ascension by C Mantis. It is really great. Its less LitRPG and more progression fantasy without a heavy system but the Series and the Worldbuilding is really good. It turns a lot of the Tropes of the Genre on its head. The Empire that governs the Protagonists world, actually cares about the people and Laws prevent strong, advanced cultivators from just doing whatever the fuck they want. Its great because the Protagonist doesn't want to break the system but is actively helping it and working towards the goals of making life better for the people who don't have magical powers. All the while still satisfying the reader by making sure the Protagonist and his friends (among them a cute Arctic-Fox that also is a frost mage) advance and become stronger.
been waiting for this vid! thank you!
It's Progression fantasy as the umbrella genre name(and subreddit). Then narrower niches like Litrpg, Culvtivation, Wuxia, Isekai, Portal fantasy, System Apocolypse, Reincranation, Dungeon Core, OP MC, and etc. Please reach to some of the author in the genre, or read the stickies there to get a good breakdown as this Video muddles terms a bit.
Note that different groups of fans tend to use slightly different definitions for the same genres/subgenre words. It is always a good idea to clarify the definition you use in any discusssion about this ;) I mean, the light novel fan group I regularly talk with would never call isekai/portal/reincarnation a subgenre of progresssion fantasy, simply because there are too many example of where this not the case. I mean, the whole villainess sub-genre rarely has any kind of power progression going on, but is most definitely more often than not isekai/reincarnation based (although time loops are in vogue right now). Mind you, villaines stories like My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom! muddy the waters even more since they take place in a "game", it just happens to be a dating game/visual novel one, so no stats, but plenty of references to tropes from said games.
@@pietersleijpen3662 That's fair. I'm saying this as an Author/Reader of the genre back on Moonlight forums. You can definitely get lost in the weeds of it but commercially. E.g. an audience like Daneils, I found the Progressin fantasy brush a more fitting one. Light novels imo are a genre on it's own, same with translated novels and Chinese novels. It's a pretty small genre but growing massively.
I've been waiting for years for daniel to get into this genre. Even if he didn't care for my personal favorite series, i'm just happy to have him share his thoughts on some of these popular books and authors.
Right. I really wish he would read more Wandering Inn. There is so much there I think he would love. I'm re reading the first book and I just finished the fish part in the beginning. And I can see what he was saying about it being a bit much but also... I found it very important. The struggles to be self sufficient. To get food. Such a simple task and in such a simple a familiar way. Catch fish, gut, cook, eat... and showing it through the lense of a lost. Inexperienced and scared person. The fish is alien, with alien bugs, the hopeless feeling of failing to do this seemingly easy task leading to her cutting her self, and the pain of that cut for the following seems adding just another depressing reminder of her failing... and she's scared. It all adds to the feeling of clueless struggle, of Isolation fear.... and that she never gave up. It felt very very grounded to me which made me so invested in her
Daniel took me out of web novel ditch and gave good classic fantasy recommendations
Great confirmation for me to avoid this genre like the plague of isekai
I've been reading LitRPG and Progression fantasy since they kicked off on the internet with the first "big" hit of "The Land" (which i DO NOT recommend) in 2015. Over the years there have been some amazing titles and i've put down below a few recommendations:
- The Divine Dungeon - Imagine reading a DND book, but the main character is the dungeon itself! And the premise is that it wants to attract adventurers with loot but kill them to level up, whilst protecting its dungeon core from destruction. Really good humour on this one and it was a nice change of pace.
- Warformed Series - Another example without the ISEKAI element - Here we follow the war between Earth and an alien race. Earth's only chance are cybernetic enhancements ("rigs") which enable people to fight the aliens and give them unique weapons and classes. The main character is given such a rig but it starts with F rank stats and S rank in growth. It sounds like a very generic description but the execution is superb and it is very fun to read if you like progression fantasy in particular.
- Wandering Inn - What ACTUALLY happens if you go to another world. Main character becomes an inkeeper, with secondary character a messenger (postman). They struggle with everyday things like getting tampons and sanitary towels / toilet paper, making money to feed themselves etc. Best character development and world building i've read (yes, including the classics).
- The Primal Hunter - Apocalypse Event with a system enforced and leveling. This one is for the power fantasy fans out there.
- Defiance of the Fall - Similar to the above, but if you are also fan of cultivation and the Xanxia and Wuxia genres.
- The Wraith's Haunt - An interesting DND inspired series where the main character becomes a Dungeon Lord and fights the "light".
I've read many more, so put a comment if you want my opinion on anything else or a recommendation. Also, keep in mind that He Who Fights with Monsters becomes thrash after a certain point, but definitely check out the first 2 - 3 books.
I am not a fan of lit-rpg or progression fantasy. Great for people who like to write and read it, but it doesn't interest me in the least. Gaming to me is a tactile thing and when I game, I don't necessarily pay attention to stats unless I need to. And given I used to raid on World of Warcraft, that's not something I personally want to read when I can just play a game that gives me the actual experience. And you would think progression fantasy would be more appealing and it's not. I don't particularly like power fantasy of any kind. I don't care about characters getting stronger and gaining more. It's not interesting to me. And often times, lit-rps especially, falls into wishfulfilment. And wishfulfilment isn't fun unless you share into the wish.
The last sentence in your comment proves that it is a matter of author skill instead of a fault of the genre per se that makes you uninterested. An author needs to make you care for the MCs development and put you in a position where you are rooting for them to succeed because you can empathize with them as a human being first.
My first foray into this genre was "How to Defeat a Demon King in Ten Easy Steps" by Andrew Rowe. It's a clear send up to Zelda, so if that's your thing it's a fun read and one that is very quick. The upcoming anime "The Red Ranger Becomes an Adventurer in Another World" seems to be blending these two genres as it is an isekai where a Super Sentai (Power Ranger) character is transported to a fantasy world. It still has explicit RPG mechanics, but the two world's systems are completely different and it is where a lot of the humor comes from. For example, the mage from the RPG world is constantly amazed by the fact that explosions happen behind the red ranger when he poses. Also, the red ranger's powers explicitly run on friendship and the bonds that form between people, so they have to learn to get along with one another very quickly. The manga is available on the Manga Up! app, which I think is garbage but I read the first few chapters and got a lot of enjoyment out of it. I hope the anime becomes popular and we get a physical release of the manga.
By far my favorite sub genre of fantasy. Followed closely by Xianxia.
Just finished the first audiobook for DCC and it was great! Jeff Hays' narration might be the best I have encountered for an audiobook so far.
So this is just a slop then. like I could find a thousand lit-RPGs on AO3 and they would just as good as the published stuff
LitRPG recommendations:
Everybody Loves Large Chests - LitRPG with a Mimic protagonist - fun, but a bit gratuitous (not an Isekai)
Worth the Candle - Isekai LitRPG where a GM is in a post-post-apocalypse future of his various D&D games mashed together (close enough description)
Azarinth Healer - Isekai LitRPG. I feel the first 2-3 arcs are good, but it's a staple
Blue Core - Isekai LitRPG, protagonist is a dungeon.
non-LitRPG progression recommends:
Mother of Learning - a mage student gets good through a repeating time loop, but problems ensue.
This Used to be About Dungeons - slice of life where there's technically a power level but it's not something used day to day. the world is definitively a hex grid, though.
I am one of the those addicted to Dungeon Crawler Carl thanks to your suggestion. I’m currently on book five and my gosh. I can’t stop reading it, lol. I’ve tried and itch to go back to it. I don’t know what makes it so addictive, but I am thoroughly enjoying it and glad I got the recommendation.
Great video! I also want to point out, regarding the popularity of litrpg. I know of at least 3 litrpg series that crack the overall Amazon Kindle top 10 when they come. Not just the SF & Fantasy top 10, but the entire Amazon Kindle top 10 list. There may be more series that do it, but I know for a fact, He Who Fights with Monsters, Defiance of the Fall, and Primal Hunter will all make top 10 for a few days when new books come out. Longtime anime watchers will be familiar with this term but you can almost call those 3 series the Big 3 of LitRPG right now.
Really nice to see Daniel talking about this. For those who like card games (not sure if Daniel does), you may enjoy the relatively new Deckbuilding LitRPG subgenre. I've had some fun reads there recently, like Goblin Summoner, All the Skills, or Theft of Decks. The amount of number crunching or card dueling varies based on the series, but there's a nice mix to be found already.